Clairvoyaging
Normalize Your Spiritual Journey!
After a close family member experienced an undeniably psychic event that shocked believers and skeptics alike, Lauren and Frank (an open-minded but naturally skeptical married couple from the suburbs of California) decided that it was time to learn more about things that can't be easily explained.
Lauren and Frank Leon interview experts about the esoteric sciences. Through spiritual growth and trauma healing, they attempt to enhance their intuition and unlock their psychic abilities. They'll ask the stupid questions you've always wanted the answers to.
Clairvoyaging offers a glimpse into the couple's exploration of diverse esoteric subjects, with warmth, humor, and genuine curiosity, Lauren and Frank navigate these intricate domains, inviting experts and practitioners to share their insights, experiences, and wisdom.
Each episode explores the expertise of their guest. Topics include the vast spectrum of psychic abilities, mediumship, energy healing, divination, tarot, spirit communication, astral projection, remote viewing, auras, past lives, dream interpretation, intuitive awakening, spiritual empowerment, and channeling messages from guides and higher consciousness.
Whether you're a seasoned esoteric enthusiast or a newcomer to these mystical arts, this podcast encourages reflection and self-exploration, inspiring a deeper connection with the mystical aspects of life, and how to integrate open-mindedness with the struggle of adulting in everyday American life.
Clairvoyaging is your gateway to the extraordinary.
Visit www.clairvoyaging.com merchandise or to access free resources to help you on your spiritual journey.
Email us: clairvoyagingpodcast@gmail.com
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Clairvoyaging is a production of Wayfeather Media.
Clairvoyaging
070: Deprogramming Religion // with Josh Gaines
Walking away from a lifelong religious belief system is rarely a simple process. Josh Gaines knows this firsthand, having spent 26 years deeply immersed in evangelical Christianity before embarking on a spiritual journey that would transform his understanding of reality.
In this profound conversation, Josh shares how he navigated the complex terrain of religious deprogramming. When the foundations of his Christian faith began to crumble, he found himself asking the fundamental question: "If this isn't true, then what is?" This curiosity launched him into exploring practices he once dismissed as "for crazy people"—Western ceremonial magic, Vedanta teachings, Kriya yoga, and Kabbalah among them. In this episode, we discuss angelic communication, third eye awakening, and the physical sensations of spiritual development.
What makes Josh's perspective particularly valuable is his ability to recognize common threads across seemingly disparate spiritual traditions. Rather than rejecting Christianity entirely, his explorations gave him a newfound appreciation for Christian mysticism and the teachings of Christ viewed through a non-dogmatic lens. Through his Deprogramming Christianity workshops and one-on-one coaching, Josh now helps others navigate this challenging transition, creating safe spaces for questions that many religious environments don't allow.
To learn more about Josh or to book a coaching session with him:
Visit: www.doctor-gaines.com
Clairvoyaging is now a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501(c)(3) charity, so any donations are now tax deductible. If you’d like to support our projects that aim to foster understanding for diverse spiritual belief systems, visit www.clairvoyaging.com/support.
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Hey friends, in this episode, frank and I talked to Josh Gaines, a spiritual coach and metaphysical mentor who is well-studied in various esoteric practices after leaving an evangelical church. We talked about deprogramming Christianity, how guilt and judgment lingers after leaving a very strict religion and different spiritual practices, like magic. I'm Lauren Leon.
Speaker 2:And I'm Frank.
Speaker 1:We are a married couple learning how to develop our own intuition, and this is episode 70 of Claire Voyaging. Wayfeather Media presents Claire Voyaging.
Speaker 2:What's up everybody Hi, How's it going?
Speaker 1:This time I was trying to do a rap and it was not going well.
Speaker 2:I was trying to be your hype guy and like it was just loud, it was just loud, it was just loud. No one needed no one needed that.
Speaker 1:No, hi everyone how's it going? Um, guys, I hope everyone's doing well frank, are you feeling it today?
Speaker 2:I am feeling something a little bit of allergies that daddy's got a little bit of a muscle tension, he's got a headache, but it's a great day.
Speaker 1:Today's going to be a great day.
Speaker 2:It's a great day it's not a good day to call yourself daddy. Nobody likes that Strike that from the record. Judge. It stays in.
Speaker 1:But hey, you know what, you know what's some great news.
Speaker 2:Tell me.
Speaker 1:We have some new Patreon friends? Tell me we have some new Patreon friends. Are you serious? Yeah, who Tasha B and Danielle.
Speaker 2:Guys. Thank you, Tasha B and Danielle yes.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining.
Speaker 2:Wow.
Speaker 1:Fun reminder that during April, your first month of Patreon is only $2. That's so cheap that one was loud.
Speaker 2:I broke my microphone, oh my gosh also fun reminder. We started a new series where you know in the intro, the musical part of our, the beginning of our show. Sometimes we try to rap and you can't hear it because it's not in the official episode. But if you want to go, I record the rap on my phone. It's not, it's a mess.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, so there is one up there. So if you join the community you can hear the terrible raps that Frank improvises behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:If you are. This time it was you.
Speaker 1:Maybe we'll put mine up. I was rapping about magic.
Speaker 2:You said my rap was terrible, so now it's your turn. They get to see what you have to offer.
Speaker 1:And you know what, guys? It's not much.
Speaker 2:It's not much, it's not much. It's not looking good.
Speaker 1:Spoken like my wonderful husband.
Speaker 2:Hey, you know what it's about 13 years. It's a relationship of honesty and truth. And sometimes you just got to look at your significant other right in the eyes and say you are not a good rapper, you should stop it at least at least not today.
Speaker 1:Sometimes, you know, we have good moments, yeah, okay. Well, I guess improvising, uh, rap, is not going to be my future. I won't have a future in that same lin-manuel mir. Miranda should not be worried about me at all.
Speaker 2:His career is secure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, you guys. We have less than two months left of our documentary fundraising campaign. Just wanted to put that out there. If you'd like to support our documentary about psychic mediums, go to clearvoyagingcom. Slash support and click on the link for the fractured atlas to donate it's going to be good tax deductible right frank td as they say um in the finance community yeah, and thank you to everyone who has supported us thus far thank you so much, we've got. We got a long way to go we do, but you know what?
Speaker 2:that's just how fundraising goes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, also keep like keep an eye out, because I want to do like a little silent auction at some point.
Speaker 2:So we don't know how. Yep, we'll, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:You don't have to leave.
Speaker 2:Oh, you know what Fun thing, too, oh is this. Is this in your notes? Let me see?
Speaker 3:no, hey, we're gonna do, we're gonna start going live on occasion on tiktok yikes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll um, follow us over there, come, follow us. I don't know when we're gonna do it. We're probably gonna start in the next like week or so yeah, I think we're just gonna hop on and say hey and see what anybody wants to talk about. It'll be, like a live version of the show, kind of maybe do a little.
Speaker 1:We wanted it to kind of be well, yeah, do some intuitive uh, just chat about intuitive development and also we're just like a live um? What's it called when you're fundraising like a telethon, telethon um, yeah does it sound weird?
Speaker 2:because no one said that word in 50 years. That's why.
Speaker 1:I remember how exciting telethons were when I was a kid. Like look at all those celebrities answering phones on stage.
Speaker 2:My memory of telethons is from when they were trying to raise money for the Katrina victims. Hurricane Katrina. Yeah, Kanye West was standing next to Mike Myers and they were supposed to stick to the script and Kanye was like George Bush does not care about black people.
Speaker 1:That's right, and that's when that moment happened.
Speaker 2:It was right. So funny and so uncomfortable, and poor Mike.
Speaker 3:Myers, I've never seen a man sweat more than that than he did in that moment. Yeah, yeah, wow, our live tiktok.
Speaker 1:Content won't be anything like that.
Speaker 2:So no promises, actually, you know what no kanye as far as yeah, as far as I know we don't know kanye or any connection to him, so anyway, okay, let's get to josh.
Speaker 1:What a cool guy what a cool guy he speaking of tiktok, he makes fun tiktok content he makes, and it's not just a fun content. Well, he's also very insightful and smart yeah like clearly he's been studying esoteric practices for a while now. He knew a lot, and I was like, oh, I'm in over my head with this conversation a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, no, I wasn't, I felt good. But you've been studying, you've been looking up different deities and all that sure, all that stuff too, but you know, josh takes us on a voyage through, like how he started off in evangelical christianity and then went through, um, like alistair crowley style uh occultism all the way to hinduism and he's very studied and now he, he, he deprograms people from bad, traditional uh christianity programs dogma, or like just that heavy structure of religion yeah, it makes people feel like stuck in one belief system stuck, but also like like you're not good enough.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like tied to it in a unhealthy way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think this conversation will really resonate with anyone who is struggling, or has struggled in the past, with leaving a very religious environment. Yeah, yeah, and I feel like it's so relatable for so many, even some of the people who have written to us or talk to us or like past guests. It's such a common thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Religious trauma is a real. It's a big deal.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's the deal sometimes yeah quick trigger warning though, just in case there's young ears around. We do mention, like very lightly sex stuff for a minute and also some drug use, but it's not too big of a deal.
Speaker 1:So and with that, let's take it away. Frank. Roll the tape, josh. Thank you so much for joining us today on Claire Voyaging.
Speaker 4:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Yes, we love a good backstory and I love your videos and I want to know how did you get into this? Can you tell us a little bit? Yeah that's wonderful. Thank you for asking from the beginning.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's wonderful, thank you for asking. I would say I mean, it's got to start with being raised in a deeply evangelical Christian home. That was my entire world for basically 26 years. And I mean, but especially in my formative years, as a kid and as a high school or teenager, that I was surrounded by Christianity to the point that I was so steeped in it that I did not know that there were other ways of thinking. I did not really. I knew that there were like secular people and we, we called them heretics and we, you know, we judged their sinful ways and all this and but, it was so.
Speaker 4:I mean, it was like it was programmed into me, it was installed into this brain and it stuck there for a long time because, yeah, as I grew and got older, it was just dawning on me that this was not the only way to operate or the way to think, and so it took me a long time to exit that religion and to sort of untangle all of the implications of that in my head. And I think that it's like in my mid twenties when I started realizing that all of that stuff was basically pretend, uh, pretend it was all lies or just falsely embedded in me. Then I was like, well, fuck then, what is true? What is actually happening here? And I've always been a knowledge seeker, so to speak. I've always been curious about other religions and other spiritual traditions and have been a big reader all my life of fiction and otherwise. And so, yeah, when I realized Christianity is not true, I just basically started gobbling up everything possible, even if at the time I thought it was literally fake or for crazy people, like magic, or like paganism and stuff. I was like this is fucking nuts, or like paganism and stuff. I was like this is fucking nuts, this is for screwballs who are mentally ill.
Speaker 4:But then, but then, once I started getting into it, I was like holy shit, there is so much stuff that's resonating with me in here and, um, it was starting to. There were truths in there that were paralleling my own life, so to speak, and so then I was like I don't know, on this grand adventure, basically, of just study and research and and finding out and practicing everything that I could, and ultimately I mean kind of dabbling in a lot of western ceremonial magic, then a lot of um, vedanta teachings and literature and uh, uh I can't think of the term kriya, kriya, yoga and deep meditation, jewish mysticism, kabbalah, um, and kind of realizing how all of these systems and all these spiritual traditions are reflections of the same basic source of light. And even doing all this study gave me kind of a hindsight appreciation for Christianity in a way, or at least Christian mysticism, and realizing that Christ was probably an enlightened being who was communicating a certain truth, but it wasn't to build churches and like worship him. He was trying to show people the divinity that they already had within themselves. And so, yeah, that was a scattered answer, but that's kind of what it is.
Speaker 4:I'm still fascinated by continuing to learn and research, but have a little bit more context now, because I can see it all as just like, yeah, different cultures, expression of engaging with divinity, and that all these practices are essentially just to get a person to wake up to their own true nature. So my work now tends to. I mean, the videos I make for TikTok and YouTube are just trying to get people to recognize that, I guess in an entertaining, engaging way that like you don't have to be glued to any one way of thinking or system and just have some openness about all of it.
Speaker 4:It can all be valid from a certain perspective, but you're never locked into like one dogma or set of rules and um, that, ultimately it's. It's all about waking up to your true self.
Speaker 2:So let me ask you a couple of questions real quick. Sure, Um, how long did it take for you to untangle the evangelical narrative that you that was, like you know, the foundation of your, your knowledge into the spiritual world?
Speaker 4:and what made you want to yeah, yeah, uh, I would say in some ways it's still happening. Like sure, there are still old remnants of that that will rear its head, mostly the belief that something in the universe is judging me. Even though I don't literally believe in a father God anymore, that pattern was so deeply in there that, um, yeah, I will catch myself feeling bad for something or feeling like maybe I fucked up or maybe I'm being blocked from manifesting the life I want, because, whatever reason, because I haven't been good enough, and so that one I'm still wrestling with of like, and ultimately all that judgment is just coming from within.
Speaker 4:Sure imagination and learning to reset my system and believe in a loving universe in which I am God, in this body, and everyone else is too, and that, of course, I deserve to have every good thing. So that's part of it, I would say. Ultimately, it was like a four to six year journey where and I mean, one of the foundational authors for me was Richard Rohr, who is a Franciscan priest, so he's still in the Catholic world, but this dude is so beautiful in the way that he speaks and has a very non-dual way of talking about Christ speaks and has a very non dual way of talking about Christ and so that I'd like found him at exactly the right time in maybe 2016 or 2018. And it was just, it was like cracking open a broader view of what Christianity could be and who Christ was, and, um, that that was really helpful for me, like a stepping stone out of that, and I guess, yeah, it was just a desire to know, like I have a deep longing to just know what is happening here, to know the truth and to know the true nature of reality and the true nature of myself, and so that was the urge, was to just try to understand what was happening and who I am and what all this is about.
Speaker 4:And I feel a lot more calm now than I used, to a sort of surrender to like, yes, there's a ton of mystery and there's so much I don't understand, but I've also been shown there's like a clear pattern going on, um, where, yeah, I've just come to believe that all of this is one awareness, experiencing itself through infinitely vast incarnations, including animals and and trees, and like non or inanimate objects, that all of this is just pure awareness, and so that helps just bring some clarity and context to anything that I read and absorb these days and like why does magic work? It's because we're literally God and the more that we're in touch with our divinity, we can make those changes in reality, and that reality is flexible.
Speaker 2:That's very funny. I have also calmed down quite a bit. I had my period there where it was just rage and you know, because my big thing was, I think my stepping stones out of the church was, of course, like the context of being in church is always like, oh, you got to be a good person and all this stuff. But then it became. Then it became like you be a good person the way we want you to be a good person. And then, very slowly, some of the leaders in my particular circle were like, listen, you can never help people, Like you're never really going to help people. You're doing this because it grows your personal relationship with, with, like God and everything. At some point I was like, wait, so I'm selfishly helping people. And then, like it made me really take a step back and look at the entire church and how it functions and how much like control is built into the system to keep people you know on on the rails it's so.
Speaker 4:It's so arbitrary within those systems what is okay and what's not okay it is arbitrary and it's different from one uh congregation to another, you know. Or or one um genre I'm not thinking of the right term, but you know and that's so confusing for any given person right to, to have these complex set of rules and like this is sin, but this is not, and yeah uh, and then the weird catholic thing of where you can kind of do whatever you want as long as you confess and do enough prayers, and all that stuff yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, definitely. Maybe the origin of my distaste for authority is right there. But yeah, and then and then, in addition to that, okay, so you've done all the things, so you should be a good person, but do you believe our fake stories now? Like, like, this little, this little way for your eating is actually Jesus. Every Sunday we turn this little piece of shit into Jesus and you have to eat him like a cannibal. It's like I was like wait a minute, but I did all the other stuff and now I'm bad because I I'm not fully bought into this weird shit. So, yeah, it was, it's a blast, it's so much fun as a thing to have to overcome, right.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I really it's a blast. It's so much fun as a thing to have to overcome, right, absolutely. I really love your honesty, though, about like um, you're still struggling with the judgment thing. I feel like is such a big yeah, that's such a big thing, like whether you're doing am I doing the right thing according to who you know, like that's so, it's so interesting and feeling like you're, like you're being judged, but then ultimately it's just, it's just your own voice going like oh, no way, no, I was told not to do this, but that right, have to undo that, like unwind that belief or whatever totally.
Speaker 4:yeah, it's huge, and it's like there's real brain pattern chemistry happening there where those those rhythms are like built into your whole way of thinking and operating and that takes some time to like tear down those neural super highways and create new paths of thinking. Yeah, um, one of the things I kind of harp on in my deprogramming christianity workshop that I put on youtube is like encouraging people to who who specifically are leaving religion, to like trigger your own shit and go do something that you previously wouldn't have allowed yourself to do, whether it's masturbate or cuss or like you know within, within reason. Don't go committing any felonies, but like do do something bad and then, when that voice comes in of like you did a bad thing, just be like whose voice is that actually and do I actually feel bad about this? And then just kind of like sit with it and work through that.
Speaker 4:And it probably takes more than once, but I mean cause these Christian values are even embedded into our society as a Christian nation, even for people who are not religious. It's like there are so many messages in the corporate world or in the government world that like if you're a bad citizen, you don't get to. Dah, dah, dah, you don't get to continue having freedom or or this, these ways of keeping people under control and keeping them stuck, and I do believe that we're in a phase of history where that is changing. I don't know what that's going to look like.
Speaker 4:Um and I'm kind of a little scoundrelly anarchist in a way, but I don't think that that's going to look like. Um, and I'm kind of a little scoundrelly anarchist in a way, but I don't think that that has to look like violence. I think it just has to look like finding new ways outside of these government systems for people to live and be in community with each other. And um, that's very much when I'm still working out because we're still under a lot of these systems, but it's it's clear that they're failing and that they don't work and they take advantage of people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, absolutely yeah and yes, you're using like fear and and doubt, and all that to just control the situation yes, you are in good scoundrel company here.
Speaker 2:Good, yeah, I'm always trying to find out exactly what the you know, because I want to in my own, in my own spiritual practice, I want to be, you know, uh, positive and someone that people come to when they need to be boosted up.
Speaker 2:But I know in my heart of hearts that what I am is a tear down of old systems, right, and that's kind of like my role in, in general, yeah, is is is tilling the soil, is what I call it all the time. Yeah, and so a lot of it is for me, like you know, I I do still like write angry music or music that, like you know, is supposed to be help with reprogramming or, um, um, you know, I make some angry political art and stuff like that, but more in the sense of not just being edgy and mean, to be mean in a way of like you should be questioning this stuff too, kind of thing, you know, yes, so, yeah, and what, from from where? Where we go from here? It will be very interesting because we are what the hell's going on right now, right, yeah.
Speaker 4:It's like. I mean, in some ways it seems like a necessary process that might be painful and difficult for a lot of us, but, yeah, maybe just a broader awakening to the fact that the people who are running this shit are scumbags who do not have your best interest in mind and that I hope ultimately, in en masse, that people will be like uh, what if we just didn't do what you said?
Speaker 4:you know, like how about we're just gonna do our own thing over here and like there's more of us than there are, than than you?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, you mentioned a couple of of practices that I'm not familiar with and I'd love to know more. I wrote it down phonetically, so correct me when I say this wrong vedanta, vedanta, vedanta sure, yeah, vedanta, and like who?
Speaker 4:who cares about pronunciation? It's, it doesn't matter. Uh, that's just a particular branch of Hinduism that is. Their whole thing is that is trying to get their practitioners to wake up to a non-dual reality.
Speaker 4:So non-dual meaning there are not two things in the universe, there's one thing in the whole universe and we are already part of it, but that realizing that with a capital R is the moment of enlightenment. And enlightenment can be a tricky word, the way it's thrown around online, because it can sound very gatekeepy and like holier than thou. People talk about being enlightened, all this shit, and it's like it's a. It's a physical, biological change in your system, the moment after which you are never the same. Yeah, and.
Speaker 4:I have not experienced this, by the way, I've only had it described to me, but they call it a Samadhi, which is where basically all awareness of everything goes away and you realize what you actually are and that this universe is all one and it's also nothing at all in this way. That completely doesn't make sense. But, um, yeah, it's just a branch of hinduism and I got really into their, their literature, through one of my mentors along the way and spent a lot of time meditating with hindu mantras and things like that, working on the chakras and and all of that it's really cool stuff, they, they definitely the people in india have been.
Speaker 4:They've had this shit locked in for like 5 000 years they've been at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're probably looking at us like you, you idiots you.
Speaker 2:You all pronounced it wrong.
Speaker 1:Oh we're just now talking about chakras. Guys, get it together, right.
Speaker 2:Wait that term. What did you call it? Samadhi? Mm-hmm, right, can you describe that a little bit more for me, if you can?
Speaker 4:It's kind of like, as I understand it it is I mean, mean, it's the whole goal of deep meditation, of where the thinking brain finally quiets completely and your consciousness kind of ascends to the realm of the ether of god, of um yeah, it's supposed to be pretty undeniable where kind of the the veil of all of this experience goes away and you realize that the whole time you were just swimming in awareness and that kind of all of this physical reality is just pretend, um, and and then the people who experience this have to kind of adapt back to regular life, because you're just like dazed, essentially, and like, holy shit, that's God, that's God, I'm just surrounded by God everywhere, and like this is terrifying, but pretty cool stuff.
Speaker 4:The teachers in Hinduism were little children who reached Samadhi at age seven and then became just these little their entire life. Their entire karmic path was just to be teachers, basically. And so, yeah, one of my mentors had reached this point, because she's an incredibly disciplined person who has spent, you know, thousands of hours meditating and, uh, helped me. We would just spend hours on the phone and I would be asking her questions about all of this and how it worked and like it is this and it's not that and um, so yeah, she helped me a lot. That's so cool.
Speaker 2:It's so cool how many, how many hours you've put into this study of just trying to figure out what the hell's going on here.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me. Um and I I do believe this concept exists in other traditions, for sure it does. In other traditions, for sure it does. I mean um in in western ceremonial magic, I think it is synonymous with knowledge and conversation of the holy guardian angel, which is also this kind of, yeah, breakthrough point.
Speaker 2:so when you, when you mention western ceremonial magic, what do you? What are you referring to? Is that tied to a particular practice or is that just like a non-denominational version?
Speaker 4:oh, yeah it. It's more or less encompassing, like the golden dawn approach to magic, magic with a k okay, you know, banishing rituals and calling on angels and doing this very you know, kind of active, performative form of meditation. Uh, that ultimately leads to the same goal. It's just like clearing out a person's energetic system so that they can wake up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, so kind of like the I don't you. You probably know more about this. When I hear like golden dawn, I think of like turn of the century, a cultism kind of stuff.
Speaker 4:Okay, yeah, totally yeah, aleister Crowley's crew and all that they did and he's. He's a controversial person and like not everybody loves him, and I don't even love him that much but uh, I think it's hard to love.
Speaker 2:That's all.
Speaker 4:That's real stuff. It's like a real spiritual technology and it's just one optional tool that people can use if they feel drawn to it.
Speaker 2:It's so funny how prolific Crowley is even now. What a character. Absolutely Recently, the podcast Otherworld did a deep dive on him in particular I've seen some documentaries too. Clearly such a person, a person that that brought so much of his own trauma into his practices as well that like it sounds like he never really fully worked out of but yet brought so much to the the practices at the same time. So interesting totally yes.
Speaker 4:Yeah, now we have the benefit of like therapy and all this healing language.
Speaker 2:My buddy just needed someone to talk to half that time.
Speaker 1:It was crazy.
Speaker 4:It was getting dark heroin, I think the the women in his life he treated horribly, um, but he was tapped into some real shit and yeah, uh, ultimately that's to our benefit to at least have the like that literature that's still existing yeah, yeah okay, so that's the better side of some of the practices and building off of the not so not the dark stuff.
Speaker 2:So what kind of in that? Because we haven't really talked about that that much in the show in in your is it? Is it okay if I call it ritualism? I don't know, sure, okay in your, like western ritualistic magic, like how, what does that look like for you?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it started with kind of the. There's all these pre-written rituals within this system. A lot of times, people make up their own, but there's also kind of like the core rituals that one is supposed to do when entering into the system, entering into this system, and so I read a handful of books in 2020, during lockdown, is when I kind of went deep dive on magic specifically.
Speaker 2:Listen, some of us did a tiger King. Other people were learning, like you. It's fine.
Speaker 4:Right, right, well, yeah, I had all this time alone at home and um, so ended up reading this stuff and what that practically looked like was, yeah, these uh rituals that you do at an altar and you can wear a robe and build your own wand and do all this other stuff your brain but it's ultimately about like calling in higher forms of uh energy to help cleanse your system and like I believe that these magical rituals are just a different format that you could also just do sitting in meditation with your breath. But, yeah, you're calling on archangels, which are really interesting creatures, really interesting entities, but they're relatively easy to get in touch with. And engaging with these forms certainly does something to one's energy body and to their aura and starts just accelerating your karma. For one thing, it often leads to like some pretty wild shit getting stirred up and some difficult things happening, but all for the purpose of getting you closer to awakening.
Speaker 4:And so, yeah, I spent a couple of years doing banishing rituals every single day, which are just like clearing the energy around me and calling in higher, you know, light and love and all this stuff, and, uh, it did have a tangible effect. Um, that's kind of hard to describe. But ultimately all that stuff led me to Hinduism, and then I just dropped all the ritual and just meditated.
Speaker 2:It's very fun when I often the more I've learned about all this stuff hearing about the actual formal ritualism, the rob, the robes, the wand, all that stuff like um, nothing I've ever particularly practiced, but like hearing about how it's, more than any anything supposed to like elicit a certain like brain, you know, brainwave from you to, so that you are, I don't know, buying into your own shit, I guess. So you know, like getting yourself into a mindset of manifestation and making something special, which is why here on the show we have a theory that everybody who's Christian is secretly a witch, and that's what mass is You're in it to be witchy, and I'm sorry if you don't believe it, but it's true.
Speaker 4:Catholic church. Mass is such an occult ritual.
Speaker 2:It's so occult they don't even realize it.
Speaker 4:Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2:It's very fun.
Speaker 1:I mean, the thing behind so much of thing is just the intention behind it. Whether it's a prayer or a ritual, or lighting a candle, or doing a spell or meditating, it's like, absolutely I have the intention of creating this thing or manifesting this thing, or or connecting with an archangel.
Speaker 2:Totally so. Can you sense angels?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was just about to there.
Speaker 4:There will it's. I would say, yes, I don't have that ability super locked in, but there will be times during meditation or sometimes in ceremony, like, uh, taking psilocybin mushrooms with other people, which I've done a handful of times, or even even cannabis honestly makes those channels a little more clear in my case, um, I I'm able to tell if something is present and I can usually get a name. Um, it's not always an angel.
Speaker 4:Sometimes it's something else and it's it's so vague and abstract but I've come to trust it, to trust that, like, what's coming in is is accurate, um, and and sometimes it's something that has like picked up on your energy from the astral that you have to just be like, hey, you don't need to be here, um, and that can be problematic for for some people sometimes. But, um, yeah, more or less, yes, I can, and the ones that I've worked with repeatedly, specifically archangel rel and Archangel Michael, are their energetic wavelength is very clear to me. They're, they're like very distinct entities and they're great dudes who have helped me out a lot.
Speaker 2:Raphael's the healer right. Is that his thing? Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and he's got a lot of association with Hermes, the Greek God, herm hermes, big fan of hermes. Yeah, yeah, totally recently yeah, right, yeah, mercury energy. Uh, hermes is like the messenger and he is particularly helpful for people who are kind of like just launching into this journey with magic. He's he.
Speaker 2:He does seem like a very benevolent, helpful entity who's like trying to give you more information to keep going my favorite that I I I started maybe one day I'll do like a special episode, but I'm I'm diving into like the uh, what do you want to call it? Like how hermeticism was even developed as a religion on my own time. This is on my own time listeners. And uh, it's so funny like that at some point, the world decided to pick out what seems like to be an obscure, not all-powerful deity, such as hermes, and and build an entire religion based off of him and the ancient Egyptian God of Thoth, and like be like oh, this is like the path we all should be following. It's not like you know, it's not the big hitters, it's not the Zeus's out there, it's it's little little Hermes, but for a very good reason. I think it's very fun. Um, so, when you are when you said you picked up a few names, is this, is this something that you were just like knowing, or is it something you actually hear?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it's all just in within my head. Yeah, and the way I've come to trust that it's real is that it's usually so fucking random and something that I, in in some cases, like a name that I did not know or recognize and had to look up later. Oh, wow.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, that's been pretty cool and that's what makes me trust it. And, yeah, the longer I've been doing this, I am able to just trust it. But, uh, early on in magic, I was having very intense dreams, like dreams the sort of which I have never had before. There was something clearly different about them and, in a few cases, uh, deities were showing up, like ishtar and, uh, krishna, and I had zero context for these guys. What are you doing here? Right, truly, and and so, and and. Then it ended up that, like, those entities had a particular kind of thing to teach me at that point.
Speaker 2:Um, is that because you were delving into, like hindu related practices? You think they showed up because, like, oh, this guy's, this guy's calling our phone number?
Speaker 4:for sure, krishna. Yes, indeed, um, ishtar was really random because she's an assyrian goddess who doesn't know, that is yeah, yeah, she's kind of intense, um, definitely like a severe, kind of like a goddess of war, but there's also a very sexual sensual nature about her. That frightened me a little bit at the beginning, but now I think it's pretty awesome yeah.
Speaker 2:That sounds like a Lilith-type deity.
Speaker 4:Right, yeah, yeah, totally In that same vein, for sure, inanna Ishtar. A Lilith type deity, right, yeah, yeah, totally, she's in that same vein, for sure, inanna Ishtar. Lilith are all on a very similar divine mother wavelength.
Speaker 2:This is fun. I'm having a great time right now Wonderful. Yeah.
Speaker 4:I love this stuff.
Speaker 1:I just wanted, I love to like, I'm always so curious to know for people who made such a turn away from a church or like a religion how did how did that shift? Like your family dynamic or your friends dynamic?
Speaker 4:totally, yeah, massive change, I would say. Even with all the stuff I put on the internet, my parents are still relatively unaware of what I do, and I don't yeah, I don't mind keeping it that way.
Speaker 4:They're both still, yeah, devoted Christians. I think it would make their hair stand on end some of the things that I've done, but that's cool. And, yeah, I would say my entire friend group changed, yeah, because, yeah, I was living in Denver in 2020, which was when my wife at the time and I moved here, and all of those people are Christians and I still love them and respect them and appreciate them.
Speaker 4:But, what I'm doing now. They're just like they can't even understand what's happening. They yeah they probably think I've gone crazy or am just deeply lost in my sin, and so my friend group now is pretty small, and I don't mind that. I just need a few core, close people who are also thinking about these things and working on themselves and that I can get as weird as I want to and they still understand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. You said earlier in the interview that you have come back around to having an appreciation for the evangelical practice in a certain way.
Speaker 4:Can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah, I do think there is a certain validity to the Bible. You know there's some pretty magical stuff in there, and I think where people are mistaken is taking it as a literal historical document. But if you view it as more magical or whatever term you want to use if you take those lessons and those words of Christ or the other Old Testament stories, you can glean some cool shit from it. And even Father God of the Old Testament as an archetype is pretty interesting. And so, yeah, I guess the most interesting thing to me is Christ as an archetype, Christ as a human representation of Christ consciousness, which I think has appeared in forms like Krishna and like the Buddha, that they were channeling basically the same thing and that Jesus was trying to tell people the kingdom of heaven is within you.
Speaker 4:Like that's the end of sentence. That's the summary of the whole Bible and they were like oh, the Bible right there.
Speaker 2:Yeah Right, the Bible distilled by Josh right there. One sentence, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:To quote that too, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, he does yeah.
Speaker 4:Right. So I guess, yeah, it's like I can I can appreciate it. I can pick up the book of Psalms and and of Psalms and get something kind of cool out of it, and some of it I don't know why it's in there Some of it's pretty boring, or maybe embedded with some sort of written in code that I don't understand. But yeah, and part of what I want to encourage people with who are like what I do with in my therapy work or in my spiritual coaching, which essentially is people who are exiting Christianity and are kind of spiraling with not knowing what to believe, of encouraging them that, like, if you felt like you connected with something spiritual or that was God, that's still real, you can still reintegrate that into your experience. It's just that the lens you were seeing it through was maybe incorrect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. I'm sure that's that's gotta be really helpful too.
Speaker 2:It's so helpful. I mean if, like you're saying, like you, you the one thing, if you're going to grow up evangelical or Christian or Catholic at all, the one thing you can walk away with is that Jesus is pretty cool as a dude and let's work with that. Everything else around it was is structure built by not him and, like you can shed it very easily and just move forward with the practices and then, you know, get into. Every single traditional religion has a that like secret mysticism undercurrent that if you, if you can catch a ride on that you're, you're going all the way to the top. I always say I've never said that in my life, but I'm saying that's great that's a great way to put it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so true, right was there like or is there a practice that um has helped you more with like kind of healing trauma from you know, childhood or whenever?
Speaker 4:I think most of that has come through conventional therapy. Yeah, you know talk therapy and EMDR and internal family systems, which I've been doing some new rounds of therapy really recently around that of finding, you know, these little characters within me, essentially like these little personalities that I've created over the years that are performing a function within my psyche that they, like the critical voice thinks it's being helpful, it's trying to be, it's trying to motivate me to keep moving in life and and it thinks it's being helpful. But like doing internal family systems work, talking to that little guy and being like you know what was the age that you were hurt, what is the story around why you're being this way?
Speaker 4:yeah and then and then learning to integrate that. So I feel like the spiritual work has I mean, if anything, meditating has just just calming my body and nervous system through breath work has been really effective in just generally having a calmer system in order to operate better in the world. But yeah, the healing has mostly been in therapy. Yeah.
Speaker 2:That like catching the little voices. How'd you put that?
Speaker 4:Yeah, just seeing what they have to say and why they're operating how they are, but it is very much like characters inside us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's such a practice of self-awareness. That's so cool.
Speaker 1:That takes a lot of work to do yeah yeah, it's powerful stuff, for sure have you um like done any any, have you or have you learned any like healing modalities, like like re Reiki or any energy healing Like? Since you've been on I mean, you've been on such a like learning quest?
Speaker 4:Sure, I would say to. To a certain degree I think that is a gift that might be within me, that that I haven't fully awakened or like fully tuned it in. But um, I've been told it sounds funny to say it this way but that I have healing hands. This has been mostly from you know, former partners and stuff, but like kind of just having them lay flat and like getting into kind of a meditative state myself and trying to channel golden, healing, beautiful light and just like moving it through their system and stuff has been effective, especially during psilocybin ceremony. That that gets really like the volume on that gets cranked up in a cool way. Yeah.
Speaker 4:And so I I do think it's there. It's not something I've experimented with that much Um, but also using that method for myself within, like trying to, you know, literally view the little cells of my body and all my organs and stuff, trying to make them glow, golden and be like we're the happiest, most healthy cells in the whole world. And like that meditating on things like that, even for short periods, can have an effect of just like damn. I do feel good, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like you will. Reiki isn't I mean, I didn't go to any classes like Lauren did, lauren's did lauren's a reiki master, but um, she has attuned me to like the lower levels of reiki practitionership you're due for master I am but I feel like you'll like it. It's very, it's chill.
Speaker 1:It's nowhere near as in-depth as some of the the ritualistic stuff that you have studied, but like it's very cool it's why I asked, because I just kind of got a feeling that, like with you have like so much in your, in your toolbox, so I feel like you'd be like a powerhouse to just have that energy healing. I mean, you already said it's in you.
Speaker 2:It's also very easy to integrate into anything you're working with already. Yeah, it could be a fun thing for you.
Speaker 4:Nice yeah, I love it could be a fun thing for you, nice. Yeah, I love it. Just on the flip side of that, while I'm thinking about it, I absolutely believe that there's a strong degree of people developing illnesses or diseases based upon their stress or trauma, that it just gets locked in those points of the body, and so I want to be careful that, not telling people they can heal themselves and they don't need a doctor, but the more that you can put your system at ease and work with these tools in addition to medical help, that, yeah, I do think things like cancer and organ disease develop because of stress and trauma disease develop because of stress and trauma.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean when you think of like everything being energy and then having like trauma that you just like kind of stick somewhere because you can't face it or deal with it or want to heal it, like it's going to just kind of keep festering or moving around in your body somehow.
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I mean I'm very, I love science, I love medicine, but also, but also, the like you know, you can't. I've seen some things floating on the internet lately about how the body reacts. Like a battery, right, and I talk to my daughter all the time about how you encounter things out in the world and you're going to have an emotion about it, and that's okay and you're supposed to let it flow through you, like, like energy flows through a battery, right. But the second you try to catch it and hold onto it and then justify its existence is when you that festering starts, right, yeah, and that sucks and like that. That has made me ill in the past, you know or acting like it doesn't exist, like the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, there's either like holding on to it and like not letting go of something from the past and making it like part of your story, or completely ignoring it, and I think that, like, ignorance is bliss kind of thing, but it's bliss, it's yeah bliss kind of thing, but it's, yeah, bliss, it's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you have, you have a bunch of, you'll always have. The world of science identifies a problem and then they move forward from there and then they'll theoretically determine, like, what started it, but it's always like we don't know. You know, there are people who've smoked for 50 years and never got cancer. There are people who smoke 10 minutes and got cancer and then they'll must be, must be the cigarettes, like no one really knows. I do think that a lot of diseases probably come about from some kind of trauma, some kind of emotional trauma. But who the fuck are we? Is there what of? Of the practices that you've studied and learned about? What has been the hands down the most influential on you and your spiritual development?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think I would have to say magic, just because it created a change that was undeniable, um, and kind of opened me up and set me up for the next stages. Um, it was so. I mean, the video that I'm making right now, a long form YouTube video, is just called how to open your third eye, because, yeah, that's more than just a spiritual metaphor. It's a real physical, biological change that you will feel and experience. And it's not something I deeply understand, but I'm just taking people through the steps of how that happened. Understand, but I'm just taking people through the steps of how that happened.
Speaker 4:And magic was absolutely the start of that where, after a few months of doing banishing rituals every single day, I started to feel a pressure in the center of my head, like a finger pushing there, and a kind of like static electricity sound phenomena around my head that only got louder and louder. Um, and there are the hindu texts talk about this phenomena that, as the pineal gland decalcifies, that you become sensitized to new layers of energy, that you were kind of like blocked from before. And that's the, that's the piece of me that has made it um, things like being able to recognize angels or or get those little downloads much more clear and um it's. It was just at the time this was happening.
Speaker 4:I was like what the fuck yeah this is so crazy, like it's like it just bloomed the whole universe open, because I was like, if this is real, and I'm feeling it and and like experiencing these incredible changes, I'm like this is awesome. Life is a video game. Like what, what else is possible? Um, and I, and that's still unfolding.
Speaker 1:I still feel like I'm learning stuff all the time, but yeah, how do you, how do you feel like that has, I don't know like, enhanced your like intuition, like on a day-to-day basis?
Speaker 4:I think it's just made me way more aware of subtle energy yeah and uh, whether, whether, like encountering a person and just being like wow, wow, their energy is bad I need to avoid them. Or someone is. I'm doing a tarot card reading for someone or talking with a friend and just getting a sense of like something subtle or spiritual or like a theme in their life that would be helpful for them to hear right now. Things like that.
Speaker 2:That's kind of an abstract way to put it, but just being more tapped into stuff like that, we talk about how true spirituality is really the game of subtleties and becoming more aware of them until they are not so subtle anymore. We talk about that a lot over here. You're making me realize that there are two ways to play the game of spirituality, and the top one is, or the most traditional one is, just to listen to what everyone else is telling you and like turn, stay, turned off and allow them to keep being the your masters in a way through religion, or to tune into those subtleties yourself and like really explore your own way and and build your own, build your own practice.
Speaker 4:That's what this is right totally yeah, we're so smart, it's great stuff no, that's got to help with like I mean, you're like coaching oh yeah practice too.
Speaker 1:Like, oh, the more tapped in you are, the more you're able to, like you kind of have a, a direct conversation. Sure, you don't even like, realize necessary. I mean, you realize it, but like I don't know Whenever Frank and I have conversations where one of us needs to like, know something, there's like a, there's like a tapped in moment where, yeah, you know when you're in it. Yeah, opt-in moment where, yeah, you know when you're in it, yeah, you know when you're in the zone like he'll be, like you're oh whoa.
Speaker 4:You feel this way, like I can sense that in my body and I'm like, yes, right, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:but like you know, if you're, if you're not paying attention, it's just like why are you being so, so sad, right? Or?
Speaker 2:why are you, why are you pretending to not be so sad?
Speaker 1:or that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is for my own clarification.
Speaker 2:When you talk about magic like Wait, how, when you talk about magic, how do you spell it?
Speaker 1:He said with a K.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, With a K at the end. Oh, I missed that part. A CK, a CK right. Yeah, CK is cool.
Speaker 1:Also, maybe I could just Google this, but how is that equal to witchcraft, Like? Is that the same? Are they one in the same or different?
Speaker 4:I would say there's, I'm sure practicing witches would have, you know, widely varying definitions of this, but yeah I, I believe, yeah, western ceremonial magic in the golden dawn tradition is about awakening and becoming in touch with one's true will and their holy guardian angel. Witchcraft can often be a little more grounded and a lot more about trying to just influence your own reality, like manifest money or trying to get a partner or make changes in your life, and that stuff is real, it's all valid, uh. But I think a lot of the paganism is doesn't have that kind of higher view of like I'm here to awaken and I'm using this tool to get there. Okay, okay, yeah, that's helpful.
Speaker 2:I think they're all tapping into the same source from different angles, right, you know what I mean. Like you, you come at it just like that's. That's the name of the game. Everyone's coming at this from a different angle or a different cultural inspiration, and witchcraft definitely is like the practice of, of manifesting.
Speaker 4:That's what like spell crafting is right that the aspect of connecting with nature is really cool about paganism of just honoring, uh, the, the earth, the soil, the, the rocks and, you know, trees and all of that, cause there's some, there's some power there too, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we just recently interviewed a psychic medium, dee Dee Hawk, and she hears, she, talks, she, she talks to trees like hears tree spirits.
Speaker 2:Like has a two way conversation with trees, which is like, oh my god, that's so cool they were like.
Speaker 1:One of them was like gossiping to her, like do you know what they're doing at this house?
Speaker 2:yeah, they're big enough to look inside your window. That's why it's so cool yeah in all of your experiences and all your, your, your learnings. Is there anything that is still like? That still seems batshit crazy to you, or you just haven't gotten to yet.
Speaker 4:This. This is hard to describe, but I've I have met people in the last four or five years where I've I've realized that the power that is available to be achieved watching people change physical reality right in front of me, I've realized that the power that is available to be achieved watching people change physical reality right in front of me in a way that that does kind of break one's brain a little bit of like Holy shit, Wait, say more yeah.
Speaker 2:Cause I've heard of this kind of stuff and I have not come across it yet, but I, I, it's always. I heard about it. I never see it. It's not like on the internet.
Speaker 4:This is. It's a tricky one, because the person that I encountered, who taught me a lot, um, and was definitely tapped into some wild stuff, was also a very chaotic figure who did not have control of their own energy, and so what they manifested in their world around them was problematic. Uh, they were not balanced and grounded, and I think they had some dark portals open that they couldn't close.
Speaker 1:I know that's all really abstract but I want the, I want the juice. Give me the tea.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I things. Things like this is not exactly changing reality in front of me, but she would say things like you know, man, I really wish I had some mushrooms. And then a stranger would walk up to us within five minutes and be like, hey, you guys need any mushrooms? Like just instantaneous things like that. And the biggest change I saw in front of me was that this is really weird, but I'm just going to describe it. We were working out of this old office building in Portland. There's like these, you know, from the 1800s. These big brick used to be like a John Deere factory or something where there are now studio spaces and offices.
Speaker 4:At the time we were working out of this space, the outside of the building was completely clean and well kept and during one of her chaotic episodes in which she like fled the building and never returned to it the next day, that building was covered in graffiti and like decrepit and like coming apart. Like in overnight it changed and even as kind of like a weird symbol of her energy leaving that place. And then it was like what?
Speaker 1:What yeah?
Speaker 4:Yeah, and this person stayed in my home and like some weird shit happened around there where I felt like it was literally haunted for a minute oh wow, they were leaving behind an imprint or like an energetic right yeah, I wonder if it's because of their demeanor that they're able to like, manifest weird shit, right?
Speaker 2:yeah, like that, that intense, that intense, those intense emotions, plus that intense focus in any one direction that feels chaotic is if it is, if she's just a manifestation machine, right?
Speaker 1:What is with the old building that's so weird?
Speaker 4:Right, right, yeah, do you think? I mean her path to getting to that point was honestly through too much drugs, to where I mean it's like it's so tricky because she was definitely awakened to some divinity but she didn't have control over it? Yeah, but she didn't have control over it. And that's crucial that people maintain, you know, a balanced, grounded life while opening themselves up to these things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, staying grounded, staying grounded. Do that. First Get grounded and then build your belief system. Yeah, that's scary, that's so interesting, but also like frightening to be around that kind of person for too long.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, I'd imagine it's like what's next? That's so intense.
Speaker 4:Tell us more about your services and what you offer came about in a kind of unexpected way.
Speaker 4:From making TikTok videos about things that I'm passionate about and just thinking out loud about these ideas, people started messaging me and just being like, oh my God, I've never resonated so much with someone.
Speaker 4:Can I please have a call with you? And so, yeah, most of the time in the early days it was much more metaphysical and people just wanted to recount their stories to me, because I understood and because I was a good listener and kind of helped calm them down a little bit or just affirm that what they're experiencing was real and like maybe some suggestions of what to do next or what's happening and what stage they're at in their path. And uh, and then through that it became I mean, it was in meditation that I had the idea for the deprogramming Christianity workshop, because I I do have a passion for those people in particular who are going through what I went through of, yeah, just feeling so lost and so confused and not knowing what to do next. And so that course, yes, it is about Christianity, but it's kind of like this subliminal, a little nudge into metaphysical, you know, esoteric practices.
Speaker 4:And it's like some people that'll go right past their head. Others it's going to like click with them and then they're going to follow some path there.
Speaker 2:But yeah absolutely Right.
Speaker 4:So, yeah, my passion with my work with clients is to help those people who are in this still really early days of realizing they don't believe anymore in Christianity or Catholicism or Mormonism, and just being like, what do I do next? And oftentimes it's just a lot of listening, which I love, I love. And then the people are lonely and they feel misunderstood and they just want to be heard, and I absolutely love offering that.
Speaker 2:It's really in in each of those religions. There are like certain spaces that you can find yourself in where you don't feel like it's a safe place to even ask a question. So you providing that alone is like so cool man, yeah totally yeah and just being able to.
Speaker 4:there's a lot of work around the judgment stuff and around shame and around sexuality and, um, I, I can often I don't know pick up on those subtleties, even in the way that a person is describing their own story or speaking, the way they speak about themselves and how there is maybe this negative, cynical tinge to it, and just be like dude. You know, it's okay to believe in yourself and the reason you're you're so hard on yourself was because of bullshit reasons Like that was never true.
Speaker 1:That's so cool, that's so great.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, on that great bridge, what a great bridge.
Speaker 4:On that note, let's tell everybody where to find you yeah, well, I would highly recommend my deprogramming christianity workshop, which is just on youtube and my website is doctor hyphen gainscom. Doctor spelled out uh, yeah, and I sent you a link for the show notes. But yeah, if folks have resonated with what I've said here, I would love to meet you and talk with you and develop a relationship in which I am helping you know, spur you forward and like find some direction and find a lot of encouragement. I love to empower my clients and like really, you know, jazz them up.
Speaker 1:It really sounds like we we have we've heard from listeners who have are like, either starting to come out of their religion or, like recently did, or you know. So I feel like this will resonate for sure.
Speaker 2:No, that's fantastic. If you had one piece of advice to give to people who are currently trying to break out of their of their traditional religious mold. What would you say? Currently trying to break out of their of their?
Speaker 4:traditional religious mold. What would you say? I think, forgive yourself and trust yourself. Um, because if there's any judgment or shame that is lingering from those ideas, those ways of thinking, uh, that there is nothing judging you except yourself, and the more that you can trust your own inner voice and what feels exciting and true and what you feel drawn to, that you have full permission to heretical or dangerous or like satanic, but that, whatever feels true, that still quiet voice that you're most excited about, even if it doesn't relate to spiritual things like that, is what you are supposed to move towards. So, trust yourself.
Speaker 1:That's so nice. Love it, that's so great.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Yeah, that's awesome, josh. Thank you so much for chatting with us today. That was like.
Speaker 4:Thank you guys yeah I was fucking blessed. I love this show, yeah thank you for listening.
Speaker 2:visit clairevoyagingcom for merchandise or to access free resources to help you on your spiritual journey. Subscribe to our Patreon for more content or join for free to chat with us. Clairvoyaging is a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501c3 charity. Make a tax-deductible donation to support our mission to foster understanding, respect and curiosity for diverse spiritual belief systems. Clairvoyaging is a production of Wayfeather Media.
