Clairvoyaging

087: Astrophysics Meets the Mystical // with Rosa Hope

• Wayfeather • Season 1 • Episode 87

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If you’ve ever felt forced to choose between a telescope and a tarot deck, this conversation will make you breathe easier. We chatted with Rosa Hope—a practicing PhD astrophysicist and transpersonal hypnotist—to trace the surprising places where hard science and deep spirit not only coexist, but actually help each other do their best work. Rosa unpacks materialism in plain language, shows how quantum-scale weirdness challenges “solid” reality, and explains why science answers "how" while spirituality answers "why."

Rosa shares the raw story of losing a roommate, developing severe PTSD, and finding unexpected relief in a single 90-minute hypnosis session that unraveled a core pattern of guilt. 

She offers a pragmatic bridge for skeptics: you don’t have to believe in angels or past lives; treat it as a guided imaginative exercise and judge by results—less pain, more agency, better relationships. Rosa also challenges default cultural lenses, naming the limits of Jungian dream symbols and uplifting learning within living traditions. The through line is generous and clear: meet people where they are, let practice lead belief, and use these tools in service of healing.

If you’re curious about hypnosis, integration, and the space between the measurable and the meaningful, this is your map. 

To learn more or to work with Rosa:

Visit: www.rosa-hope.com

Clairvoyaging is now a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501(c)(3) charity, so any donations are now tax deductible. If you’d like to support our projects that aim to foster understanding for diverse spiritual belief systems, visit www.clairvoyaging.com/support. 

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Lauren:

Hello, fresh-faced beauties! In today's episode, we chatted with Rosa Hope, an astrophysicist and transpersonal hypnotist. We talked about the healing work of hypnosis, integration, and past life regression. I'm Lauren Leon.

Frank:

And I'm the king of the world!

Lauren:

We are a married couple learning how to develop our own intuition. This is episode 87 of Claire Voyaging. Wayfeather Media presents Claire Voyaging. Welcome back, friends. This is it.

Frank:

This is the moment you've been waiting for.

Lauren:

This is the one.

Frank:

This is it.

Lauren:

Everything in your life has been leading up to this moment right now.

Frank:

Welcome to the present.

Lauren:

Are you ready? And now, and now and now. Every moment is the present moment. Welcome to it. What if this was the entire episode?

Frank:

Oh no.

Lauren:

I just keep reminding you that you were in the present moment. Would you listen? I'm fine. How are you?

Frank:

They were better before that.

Lauren:

They don't like my hypotheticals. Let me know in the comments.

Frank:

Please don't.

Lauren:

I just keep begging for comments. That's that's my bit. And also hate me? I'll take it. Come at me in the comments.

Frank:

I'm starving for human attention.

Lauren:

No, don't send me bad comments. I'll cry. Yeah. You guys, we have a great episode today. We talked to Rosa, and she is a delight. She is she's just she's one of those like really smart people.

Frank:

Guys, former punk gun astrophysicist, gun, uh like hypnotherapist.

Lauren:

Yeah. I mean the hell. Yeah.

Frank:

I was like, we got to like dabble in like quantum stuff, and like she has like music.

Lauren:

Yeah. And a musical theater background. I was like, well, okay.

Frank:

Like move in with us, please.

Lauren:

I mean, yeah, what a what a conversation. So I don't want to keep holding you up by making me beg for comments. So here we go. Let's talk to Rosa.

Frank:

Here we go, Rosa.

Lauren:

To the stars, astrophysicists.

Frank:

Oh yeah.

Lauren:

Hi, Rosa. Thank you so much for joining us today. We're excited to hear about your story. So can you tell us a little bit what got you into the work that you're doing now?

Rosa:

Sure. Uh so I think what makes me unique is the fact that I am a PhD astrophysicist, still practicing, still doing research, uh, though I'm also a transpersonal hypnotist and an integration coach as well. Um and I think people find it very strange because it's not particularly common for a hard scientist to be so like fully woo as I am, I suppose. Um that's kind of where where the interesting stuff comes together. I think what's different about me also is that many people in my position sort of come from a more traditional background or a corporate background, and then something major happens in their life and they have a huge wake-up call or a spiritual awakening, and then their mind gets cracked open, they discover all the spiritual stuff and their life changes. That's actually fairly typical, but that's not what happened to me. I've been strange since I was born. Oh so yeah. So yeah, I know. When I was a little kid, um, I was already interested in the paranormal or the supernatural. So uh I was the type of kid who, you know, during elementary school, I'd wander off by myself during recess and like sit in a circle of trees and like hug them and talk to them and like wonder if I'd see a fairy. And I was checking uh books out at the library on like ESP and ghosts and that sort of thing. Now, I hadn't had any spooky experiences myself, but I did have this like insatiable curiosity about it. Um and interestingly, I would argue that's how I ended up becoming a physicist too, because they're also insatiably curious. Yeah. Uh they are a type, they're people that really want to know what is all this? Like, what is reality? What is it made of? How does it function? Um, so in a sense, the things that got me into the more esoteric or metaphysical uh topics and practices are the exact same thing that got me into science. They're the same. And so it's been this kind of hand-in-hand journey, more or less the whole way, though it's like I've kind of had these detours off to one side or the other at different stages of my life. But a story I like to tell people just to kind of warm things up is that uh usually scientists are are really on the material, the materialist side. They're really skeptical, they don't really like the woo, it's not comfortable for them. Uh but I think this concept that science uh is by its very nature based on a materialist paradigm is a modern idea. That's new. If you go back to Isaac Newton, who is the father of you know mechanics, the father of classical physics uh and calculus, he was both a scientist and a mathematician and an alchemist. He was an active practitioner and researcher in alchemy. He was a magician. And uh but you know, uh later during the during the Enlightenment and everything else, um this rift occurred where uh there this kind of cultural belief appeared that science was capable of explaining everything. It was capable of explaining all phenomena. So like even if we didn't have an answer yet, science would lead to it. That's actually philosophical. We don't know if that's true or not. In fact, I would argue that is not, though that's kind of a rabbit hole of its own. Uh, but it's like I just want to remind everyone that the goals of science and the goals of mysticism are fundamentally the same, which is trying to understand what we are and what all this is and why we're here. So, I mean, maybe that's more blanket than like my personal story. Uh, but for me, it's been growing up just deeply curious. And that curiosity was not limited by a materialist paradigm. I'm ready to hear from everyone about what they think is going on, whether it's kind of data and evidence based or whether it's experiential.

Lauren:

That's so interesting to think about like people were expecting science to have all the answers because when you look at it now, it there is such a like a divide almost where someone's like, well, no, I'm very science-based. I don't believe in, you know, like spiritual stuff that you can't explain. But it's almost like everyone's just been waiting for the explanation or like the the research behind mysticism.

Frank:

Yeah, well, you know, everyone always says that like uh what is it? There's no differentiation between like a modern like scientific mystery and m magic. And it's it's right. And like you're clearly in that, you're living in that in-between where you're you're dabbling in both more than dabbling. Uh you don't dabble and end up with a PhD.

Rosa:

But so true. Oh man.

Frank:

Just real quick, no, you're for our listeners. Could you define materialism in in the context that you're using it?

Rosa:

Yeah, yeah. So it's it's funny. I think people I'm so big on semantics, it's probably gonna drive some people crazy. But the reason I I care so much about it isn't because my definitions are the right ones, but because we should know what our definitions are so we're actually communicating effectively. Okay. When people are talking about being uh being scientific or something like that, they also confuse this with like atheism and stuff like that. The the terms get confused.

Frank:

Yeah.

Rosa:

What materialism actually is, is believing that uh essentially what is physical or what can be interacted with on a physical level is the only thing that is by definition reality. So reality has to be physical, like uh like a wall or a chair, um, etc. So a materialist paradigm is one that says there is no unseen world. There is no spirit world, there is no God. Um, all of these kind of unseen or unfings that aren't manifested physically are not real. So it kind of rejects the world of spirit and the world of idea as mental constructs. So people who have a materialist paradigm also believe that consciousness arises from brain function and biochemistry. So it makes the body a miraculous machine, and some oh, can't say miraculous with those people, an incredible machine, a a you know, a a squishy water-based machine. But uh, but that what we experience and anything strange we might experience is is also something that is generated by the brain. So if you experience, for example, a synchronicity or something like that, it's not that anything special has occurred in the material world, it's that your brain is doing its well, humans are very good at pattern recognition. But it's saying your brain's just doing some hardcore pattern recognition, that's all it is, there's no meaning, etc., etc. So, so the hardcore materialists are really in the do y'all know who Richard Dawkins is? No. No. Big, big famous uh author who is like atheist, hardcore atheist, hardcore materialist, but has a a good size audience, and he loves to be like the the worst kind of skeptic, in my opinion, which is that he doesn't just tear apart the idea, he likes to tear apart the person with the idea. Um I love it, right? I love it. Milk of human kindness. But uh, but yeah, but that's his way, and that's how he he wants to be right more than anything else.

Lauren:

Desperately.

Rosa:

And what's nice about having a belief in only the physical world is that he can prove himself right over and over with like physical experiments and stuff like that. So if something can be detected, it's real. If something can't be detected, it's not real. Easy peasy. Easy peasy. Does it kind of make life small and meaningless? Oh yeah. Yeah, and so boring. But that's yeah, and also like dire, but that's the materialist paradigm. Um, I did dabble with that when I was like in high school and I was really angry and depressed and um listening to like punk rock bands that were about like down with the man and stuff like that. So like I I have dabbled in that area. Sure. Uh thankfully didn't get a PhD in it though, you know. Um but uh but it is kind of a dark place, and a lot of people end up landing there, especially very, very smart people who really overthink things. People of an existentialist bent sometimes do land there and stay there because they kind of discover there that life has no meaning, and then they kind of lose steam, and that's a wrap. So that didn't happen to me. Um, when I was in high school and I was all pissed off and drunk all the time, I, you know, I found that place, I found that meaningless place, but then I had an epiphany because I had made up my mind that if life had no meaning or whatever, then I should do whatever the hell I wanted. And I discovered that if I, of course, I'm this is coming from a place of privilege too, that I that I was able to do this, but I I decided I was gonna move overseas. I decided I was gonna go on an adventure. Because at the rate I was going, I was like, I'll probably be dead by 25. I want to like see the world. I want to like go have a good time. Let's let's like rock star the hell out of this, okay? YOLO or whatever. And but I upon doing so, upon like making the choice, um, I found that once I put my mind to it and started looking into like, okay, I want to move to Europe. What do I have to do? What's the visa situation? How can I make this happen? And within less than a year, I had done it. I had figured out how to do it. I was legit on a visa, you know, I could get a job and everything. And I had like, I had moved to Europe and I was like, look at what I can do. Like, look at what you can do when you just like make the decision, when you really are like, this is what I'm doing, this is what I'm doing. Um almost all the time, you can figure it out, you know, and uh and that is the magic that kind of broke me out of my funk. But in a life with no meaning, you have the power to choose what the meaning of your life will be. Right. And that makes you powerful. So, in a sense, it's like that that got me back out of that pit and like sent me on this other direction. Because if we get to decide what the meaning of our life is, or we get to decide what we're gonna do with it, all of a sudden the world becomes your playground. You know, and and then it wasn't so depressing. Instead, it was like, well, what's the adventure I'd like to have? And that kind of opened things back up and allowed me to kind of continue on this journey.

Lauren:

Oh, that's really fun. I like that. I like that framing. That's that's great.

Rosa:

You know, the stuff that's for the skeptics. That's for the skeptics. I have a totally different take now, by the way. I'm woo now, okay? I'm woo.

Frank:

Something it's funny. So you hit your you kind of hit your rock bottom and found freedom in it.

Rosa:

And yeah, that's right.

Frank:

It's so funny because I've said this multiple times. I used to tell people that, like, you know, especially when they're feeling really down on their circumstances, I'd be like, well, you found that nothing matters. And when nothing matters, everything matters the same. So everything matters. And like you can do whatever you want. Yeah. You've you've it's a compression of the highs and the lows. Like, and then you get to that's right, you find some freedom in it.

Rosa:

Well, I understood you. I know you make sense to me. Check it out, check out 100%.

Frank:

The okay, so we're we're a drunk punk in Europe. And yeah. How do we go then to astrophysicist?

Rosa:

Yeah. Okay, yeah. All right. Look, this is such a long and convoluted story that sometimes when I like make a new friend as an adult and they really want to know this, I tell them the whole story and it takes like 20 minutes, and then they're like, You're lying. So, like this is so here we go, I guess. Yes. Um, so um after Europe, I moved to Asia for a little while. Um, and after Asia, uh, I moved back to the United States. Um, interestingly, because I I had decided I was gonna be a musician. So, what does that have to do with any of this? But uh I don't know. I was I was a punk rocker, right? So I had had a guitar like all this time. I'd wrote all these songs and stuff, and I was like, I'm gonna like record and I'm gonna record an album and like take this on the road. So I came back home to do that. I had gotten a degree in theater, in musical theater, before I ever left the country. So I was a performer anyway. I was used to being on stage. Being a being in theater and being in performance is very high energy and very uh sort of it's an education in the heart and an education in the psyche that is really hard to get in any other manner. So I think that's why there are a lot of us in this space actually. Uh, but I was a performer. I was a performer at that time. There was a woman I had uh done some Shakespeare with a couple years earlier who had a professional troupe that went on the road and did Shakespeare at Renaissance festivals. So I spent a couple of years um taking my music on the road and doing Renaissance festivals. And the Renaissance festivals at first were sort of the cash cow. And then I'd take it on the road and be in my camper van, you know, going from like, you know, I had a gig in like Cape Cod for like a week where I'd like play at this one place called the Jetties that was so awesome. And then like go up to through like New Jersey and New York. And um, so it's like I would take it on tour because it was like girl with an acoustic guitar, right? Yeah. Um, and that actually went pretty well. It got to the point where I was making enough money touring, you know, that like that was an option. But the reality was that my heart was longing for a type of security that there was no way to get out there. I wanted a relationship. I wanted to have a family eventually. And I was meeting lots of people on the road, but man, they were not the people to do that stuff with. There were a lot of issues with drugs, there were a lot of issues with like mental health, a lot of issues with like narcissism or people that like need you to hold them up emotionally or like sustain them emotionally. And I was like, this is not fatherhood material out here. Um, so the well, and this is funny because I'm like this punk rock girl too. So it's like there's this nesting part of me that still was strong enough to be like, this can't go on. So I started to ask, well, what is the next step gonna be for me? And um interestingly, where this story breaks off right here, I'm writing a book about this right now, like this next stage. Yeah. So, like the stuff I'm about to tell you. But it's the journey of how this all became a profession for me, like went from being a thing I was interested in and knew a lot about into the way I make my living. Um, I had done the Renaissance Festival in Colorado, and there's something about the sky out there next to the Rockies that I haven't seen anywhere else, maybe Montana-ish, but you seem you're so close. It's like you're so close to the clouds. There's something that feels really massive and spacious there that was like calling to me. And I got the opportunity to move there, to move to Denver, and I just said yes. It was really just luck. I hadn't even really been looking. I'd been like asking, what is my next step? And this opportunity opened up. And so I said yes. And I went, and interestingly, uh, within a month of me settling there, I met my now husband. Whoa. So this was more than 10 years ago that this happened, but it's it's one of those funny things, like you can call it synchronicity or something else, but I think it's more like when you're ready. So a good example of this is like I had, I'd, I'd been dating, I had met some guys, nothing, nothing was really working, people were unhealthy. And I finally got to the point where I remember this moment driving over a bridge. Again, this huge Colorado sky at sunset, like a painting in front of me. And I was driving home from work and just started crying because I was like, I might always be alone. I mean, I knew I'd have like serial boyfriends or something, but you know, like I'll never really be settled and find that partner. I need to get right with myself about what a life alone really means. And that'll also be okay. Yeah. And being able to let go of that in that moment, it's like my husband showed up like the next week. So it's like I realized something had happened because I had been yearning so much for this thing that I wanted. And once I finally grieved it and let it go and said, I guess this isn't gonna happen for me, then I made space for to invite something in instead of reaching out for it. And that wasn't lost on me either.

Frank:

Yeah.

Rosa:

Um, because we knew pretty much right away he moved in with me a month after we met.

Frank:

Like we knew. We knew.

Rosa:

Yeah, yeah. There was no fooling around. Like, um, and he he could tell, like, even on our first date, it was a coffee date that ended up lasting for six hours till like almost midnight, even though we had like work the next day. Well, seriously, because we it just you know, it just we understood what where we were at. Yeah, yeah. Um, we were two people on the journey, like not to pretend that anyone has it figured out. We knew we didn't have it figured out, but it's like we could see that we both were on that path. And so it was easy to communicate. Uh, very soon after that, um I realized that I wanted to build a career of some description. And the whole time, so I mean, when I was in high school, I took AP calculus and AP physics and stuff. Like I've always been sort of renaissance woman, you know, taking pottery class, singing in choir, doing theater, punk rock band, like also physics and calculus. I just, like I said, insatiable curiosity, right?

Frank:

That's great.

Rosa:

And uh, and so when I was trying to figure out like what job might I actually enjoy, like what career, not like being a barista, but like a well, is a good career for some people, actually. But I wanted a career that felt right for me or felt exciting to me. I didn't want to get bored. That had been my biggest Achilles heel. And like where I got self-destructive was always correlated to when I started getting bored.

Frank:

Right.

Rosa:

So I was like, well, I bet I can't be bored. It's gotta be challenging and it's gotta be interesting intellectually. So I was like, well, what's harder than like getting a physics degree? And like being a physicist sounds really hard. Also, I had big, come on, and I also had big, big questions about the universe. Um, what is all this? What is reality? What are we? How do consciousness and and like physical stuff, like how does all this interface? I had a lot of questions and I didn't have a lot of answers. And I thought to myself, well, who would know better about this stuff than the physicists? They're like smashing electrons together. Surely they know something, right? Um, so that's the direction I went, and I made a little deal with myself that I would uh I would apply for a scholarship to go get a second degree, like in physics. And I was like, well, if I get the scholarship, I'll go. And if I don't get the scholarship, I'm not gonna pay for this. You know, I'll do something else. Um, but I got the scholarship, and so like I took the bet and I went. I loved being a physics student. Like I it's so juicy and like so challenging. And I am a nerd and I love math, you know. And um, so much about the world is so well described through the beautiful language of mathematics. I was, I mean, I got a stomach ulcer from the amount of coffee I was drinking, but I also had the time of my life, you know. You know, um, but that being said, even during this time, my spiritual journey was in process. I had uh, you know, I had experiences with like plant medicines. Um, I definitely had friends that I could have these deep conversations with. In fact, I started a student club called Phi Dip, uh, which was philosophical discussions in physics, where we would talk about the intersection between philosophy and physics, you know, and and there are a lot of juicy conversations there. Cause as y'all, I'm sure, are aware of quantum mechanics and quantum physics is used as like the big catch-all in so many spiritual discussions. And we, as physics students, wanted to get down to the nitty-gritty and really talk about what that means. So, here's one of those funny things that goes back to the materialist paradigm. They want things to be physical, they want things to be solid. Well, guess what? Physicists have figured out in the lab at the tiniest level, nothing is solid. Everything's space, everything's vacuum almost entirely. So, like what you experience as solidity or physicality is actually just electromagnetic interactions. It's the fact that the electron cloud around the atoms of your hand on this side don't like the electron cloud around the atoms in your hand on this side. So when you clap, one hand stops the other, you know? So what you're actually experiencing is electromagnetism, like electromagnetic repulsion. Nothing's actually like touching in this way. Also, at the same time, we're sharing electrons all the time. So, for example, like when you kiss somebody or hug your dog, y'all are exchanging electrons the whole time. So, like, what part of the physical matter belongs to them? What part belongs to you? What part belongs to the tree I'm hugging as a child? We share all of that, you know. And if you're more into biology, like go find out how much of your body is made of microbes that don't share any of your DNA. Like, what are you? Right. You're a you are a collective physically. So why is it so outlandish to imagine that we are a collective consciously? You know? So I guess it at the end of the day, um, that club was probably a big part of this too. I haven't thought about this in years. I've like forgotten that I did this. Uh, but it was such a yeah, but it was like full of juicy conversations that tried to tie it all together in like a grounded way. And I now it's like I'm seeing it now that that was probably the seed of what I do now, which is saying there's space to have this whole conversation without just totally making stuff up or talking about things we actually don't know what we're talking about. There is a way to hold all of this at once. Um, but anyway, to kind of get to the end of this part of the story, I decided I was going to grad school. Now I was like, if I'm doing physics or whatever, I'm going all the way. I'm gonna get a PhD, I'm gonna try to be a professor, I'm gonna do the whole thing. However, when I had just like finished my physics degree and I was headed to grad school in Santa Cruz, my uh my roommate passed and it was very traumatic in the house, not it was really bad. Yeah. And I ended up getting uh PTSD from that experience. And so I was in therapy for a while to try to manage my symptoms. And um, and the therapy worked in the sense that like cognitively I understood everything. I knew it wasn't my fault, blah, blah, blah. Like I get it, but I was having such bad symptoms that I was like dissociating in the middle of a research meeting and stuff. Like it was really affecting my yeah, like I was having a hard time functioning in my first year of grad school, which is like the worst. You gotta, you gotta be at your best because that is like the the the steepest on ramp of your life, is like the first year of grad school. I'm sure as an astrophysicist. So um, so anyway, I really needed help because I was like, this is not working, I'm not getting any sleep, like that. I'm a I'm a wreck, right? When I need to really show up. And in Santa Cruz, which I still believe is the woo capital of America, I was like, I will try anything. And I found uh this mountain man in the Santa Cruz Mountains who had a cabin out there, which I went to, and he had like 12 certifications, like Reiki, hypnosis, energy, shaman, healing, soul retrieval. You know, so it's like I'm looking through this like laundry list of certifications, and I'm like, I don't know what any of this is. Yeah, I will just tell him the problem I'm having, and he's the professional, he can decide what he's gonna do with me. And so we went and had a meeting. I told him what was going on, I told him why, and I was like, what you got for me? And he decided to do hypnosis work with me. Um, it was uh about an hour and a half long session. Um I didn't know what to expect at all, but I was all in, you know, I was gonna do it because I wanted help, you know, I was ready to let this go. And in that 90 minutes, I discovered that the problems I was having were because I had created um what I visualized during hypnosis as a guilt baby. So it's like imagine a baby shaped entity like made of black sludge, um, very hard to handle, very uncomfortable to handle, and full of like the darkest kinds. Emotions you can imagine. And I was nurturing it because I felt that if I let it go, I would be a bad person. Wow. And during this session, we discovered this and I got to feel all the feelings and be with that and then get permission. You know, he brought in Archangel Michael, which was a little hilarious. I had left church long ago. Like when I was like 14, I was like, forget y'all. Um so I didn't know an angel was coming to visit me, but like that's who he called in. He called in Archangel Michael. Archangel Michael comes in with like a posse. So there's like a crew. Yeah. Don't know who they were. But anyway, uh, they were like, give us the baby. And I'm like, uh, and they're like, come on, it'll be all right. And I'm like, okay. So, you know, we hand over the sticky baby and they take it into the light. And uh, and I'm like, okay, I guess this is fine. I never had another PTSD symptom.

Lauren:

Oh.

Rosa:

And at first I was a little skeptical, but as the weeks went by and the symptoms didn't return, I was like full on evangelized because I thought to myself, if this method is this effective in one session, it should be healthcare.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

Yeah. God. Wait, so real quick, I don't I don't want to interrupt, but what was your you know, when you when we when we meet with our with our mountain men shamans, uh like we all do, the what was your actual experience during that that session? Was were you were you seeing Archangel Michael on his posse or or is this?

Rosa:

Oh yeah. I was fully aware the whole time.

Frank:

Okay.

Rosa:

I was fully aware the whole time. So now, well, fast forward really quick. Now I am a hypnotist and uh work with lots of people in very deep states of hypnosis. Uh there are plenty of my clients who remember everything during the session. It kind of starts to fade. So we record it and record them talking about it so they can listen to it. Because it can be dreamlike and start to kind of disappear after uh uh like two or three hours. Um, but I have had a few, not very many, I have had a few clients come up from a two-hour session embarrassed because they think they've been asleep the whole time. Oh, wow. And in my experience, that happens when the news that's coming through is something they might not be very comfortable with.

Frank:

They're protecting themselves, right?

Rosa:

Because the reality is that people can absolutely stop a session if they want to. You can wake up if you want to. Especially in the modalities that I use, that's one of the really important parts of the contract we make as two people that are working together. But because of that, if it's something that the higher self thinks the ego mind will wake up from or won't be able to sit with during session or will prevent from happening, they will like fall asleep by their own reckoning so that the information can come through them. And then as I tell all my clients, the real work isn't in session, the real work is when they listen to the session later, because that's when the ego gets to hear all the things they had to say.

Frank:

Mm-hmm.

Lauren:

Mm-hmm. So they But no, I was there for my whole sleeping, but they're like talking through the whole thing.

Rosa:

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I don't think they're asleep. They're talking to me. I know that they're they're doing what they're supposed to be doing. Yeah. That's it's like a translation. We are in conversation. So wild. Because all of my sessions are recorded, you have that safety. You have the safety to go deep and fall asleep because you have a detailed recording of everything that happened. So nothing gets lost in there. There's no like, you know what I mean? It's different if you fall asleep and you don't know what happened. Yeah. But instead, what's happening is you have an account of everything that happened. So you're not actually left in the dark. That makes space for them to come get what they need from the session, even if the ego mind would fight against it. They came for a reason.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Rosa:

You know, like I don't make people sign up. Like this is a this is big work. In fact, I would argue it's impossible, it's it's bad news to try to persuade anyone to do it because it is such deep work. You don't want to do it with someone who's not ready or doesn't know that it's the thing they need to do next. Right. And when they know, they can handle the difficult thing. But what I see sometimes is that I'll have a client who won't listen to their recording for months or years. I had a funny situation where I had a client.

Frank:

I'm literally in the middle of writing a question. How often do you how often do you get clients who will not address what they the recording?

Rosa:

Well, here's a really funny story. My husband, who uh was my guinea pig when I was getting my certification, he was the first one. He's the first one I ever did this, uh, did hypnosis on. And there's two stages. There's a regression stage where you might go to a past life or some other type of experience. And then there's a higher self stage where we're in direct conversation with the collective aspect of self, which is deeper. It's the deepest stage of hypnosis. And he listened, I remember when I was like, you got to listen to your recording, you got to listen to it. And he goes up and lays down to listen to it and give it his full focus. And I, you know, I can hear it too. I was there, you though I know what he said. But it's like we're getting through the regression, we're getting through the regression, getting all the stuff about the life he experienced. And then the second the higher self comes through, he started snoring. And I was like, You gotta listen to this. Like, why are you asleep? And and what's funny is that we tried to do this twice, and whenever we get to the higher self, boom, he's out. Oh my gosh, that's really funny. We are eight years down the road from that moment. He still has not let he still hasn't listened to the higher self half of his recording, you know? What? But I have another, yeah, I have another client who's a who's a professor, but she wasn't a professor yet when we did our session. And so she didn't listen to it either. She didn't listen to it for two years. And when she did listen to it, she called me and was like, oh my gosh, I finally listened to it. And everything I said was exactly what I needed to hear now. Whoa.

Frank:

So it's waiting for that.

Rosa:

Well, yes, but in a way, I laugh at this because I'm like, it's not a magic woo thing that it's everything she needed to hear then. It's that she didn't do that work for two years because she didn't listen to the recording. Yeah, so it was still just it's like the work weights.

Frank:

A delayed, delayed lesson.

Rosa:

Mm-hmm.

Frank:

So we we you had your you had your session with the my session, yeah.

Rosa:

With the mountain man. Yeah, yeah. Such an such an archetype, too. Like that was that was really powerful. But he it I was healed, right? Like my I it it addressed all my symptoms. I was evangelized. Uh, and I'm also the type of person, look, I if you're the type of person who's like, I'm just gonna sign up for an astrophysics PhD, then this was like no big deal. So I was like, okay, if I want to share this with other people, I will just learn it and I will do it. I will, it's fine, it'll be great.

Lauren:

Of course, yeah.

Rosa:

Yeah. Um, so probably within maybe a month or six weeks of my session, I was training in certification in hypnosis. So, so and that was my first year of grad school. So these things really went hand in hand on this journey. So I was training uh and transpersonal hypnosis is not the same as clinical hypnosis. Transpersonal hypnosis is almost always spiritually based. So when you meet someone who's doing past life regression or uh regressions that take you to other planets and stuff like that, they are a transpersonal hypnotist. The the the found it the foundational belief is that consciousness is not tied to the body.

Frank:

Okay.

Rosa:

So anyone who's helping you kind of astral project or go backward or forward through time, that's always transpersonal hypnosis. So when you're training it, you're training in a lot of metaphysics and spiritual stuff too, because of how the framework that they treat consciousness in is embedded in this spiritual framework. So it's like you can't do one without the other.

Frank:

Got it. Okay.

Rosa:

So because of that, here I am, I'm doing my classes, I'm writing my papers, I'm doing my research um in astrophysics and doing all this stuff on the side. So it in a sense, it's like I really had my hard knocks getting my certification because almost everyone I was working with for my certification clients were like hardcore science people. So these are like my office mates. Yeah.

Frank:

You are you are hitting both ends of the spectrum here at the same time really hard. And yeah. That had to be a little that was like that had to be very like mind-bending. Uh were you seeing how one led into the other?

Rosa:

They talk to each other. Of course they talk to each other in astral. But if you're surrounded by the city, about like cosmology and like whether the universe is finite or infinite, yeah, is mind-blowing by itself. Learning about the physics of a black hole and the beginning of time is mind-blowing by itself. Do you know how many mathematicians end up dying early deaths because they're working in such an abstract space that they like cannot, they cannot function. They cannot hang out. It's like too weird out there, you know? Um, and in a strange way, doing the spiritual work hand in hand with this helped ground it because what spiritual endeavors can give us that science never can is why. Yeah. Spiritual endeavors give us purpose, they reveal to us slowly life's meaning and the meaning of existence. Science can never do that. Science can answer the question how, but philosophy and spirituality are the only thing that can answer the question why.

Frank:

So during this period of time, are you in your own? Because I'm assuming you don't have a lot of peers that are on the same journey.

Rosa:

This is sort of an interesting thing, which is that uh I think I in I don't know if there's anyone else in the hard side. There are plenty of people in the social sciences that walk this path, particularly people who end up with PsyD, like a like a psychological, like a doctorate in psychology and stuff like that, do kind of tend toward the woo side sometimes.

Frank:

Yeah.

Rosa:

I don't know if there's anyone else in the hard sciences that has walked this path. I have not met them. Uh, but something that's interesting to me is that I do have many hard scientist friends that are on a personal journey, not a professional journey. And they may not ever openly talk about it, particularly in a professional or public forum.

Frank:

Yeah.

Rosa:

But that's probably why they find me because they know they can talk to me about it. So in a sense, I've become a safe space for those people. Interesting.

Lauren:

Yeah. Were you having colleagues and like you know, classmates that were like, what are you doing? Like where you felt kind of criticized or judged?

Rosa:

Judged, no. But also, I think some parts of me, I think in a way I can be kind of a force of nature. So I don't I haven't actually dealt with much direct criticism of like myself or who I am. But also I'm a very heart-centered person. And in general, uh the relationship has the power to overcome any misgivings they may have about my pursuits or my interests because they know how they feel when we're together. Yeah. Uh, I think it's very powerful to lead from the heart because of that. And also, I don't need to be right. Like my ideas change. My ideas of my personal cosmology change when I learn new things. Yeah. So like it doesn't, it doesn't need to be in opposition because I'm still learning. Yeah.

Frank:

So this is the part that I find so interesting so far is because you are you are surrounded by or in a field where like materialism is the predominant, I'm gonna call it belief system. Are materialists even available to have those um old definitions redefined, which is kind of like the what science is supposed to do in the first place discover the continuous discovery and and building on prior definitions and understandings. But uh I that was the very loaded question, I'm sorry.

Rosa:

No, no. One of my office mates back then, who is still one of my best friends, is in that boat. Yeah. He is very materialist, but we also love each other. Sure. And we have had hours of healthy debate over the course of our friendship about these very things. And what these debates always kind of settle into is that the framework we each have for understanding, for example, what these practices are about doesn't have to match because what the practices do is what matters. And this is what I say to my clients who are interested in doing hypnosis with me is that they don't actually have to have any belief system. They don't have to believe in past lives. They can just think that what we're doing together is an imaginative exercise because it still works. Sure, yeah. I don't have to believe in angels, but in my mind, I saw a gaggle of angels. I don't know the technical term for it. I'm pretty sure it's a gaggle. It's definitely a murder of angels. But whatever they are, I saw them carry this strange thing away out of my body. And and but but see what I'm saying? It's like I don't have to believe it. I just have to, I just have to agree to the process. And when I agree to the process, incredible things have happened, not just for me, but for my clients too. Incredible things. And you can try to explain it away with placebo effect and what have you, or like total woo, like aliens came down and fixed my back. I don't care. It's fine. Whatever it is is fine because it worked, it helped you, and now you're happier, and now your life is better, and now your relationships are better. So the framework, of course, I have my own. I have like my working model, right? But it's not important to me what your framework is. That's probably the core of the work that I do, is that I'm not trying to teach my way, I'm trying to help you figure out your way. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Because like we can't always relate exactly to one another. But what I do know how to do is help people with a whole broad gamut of belief systems to find their way to a better life for themselves and a better daily experience for themselves. I think that's really powerful. And I think that's why I haven't dealt with a ton of blowback and stuff from being a part of this, because when someone's like a rote materialist, I'm not going to them talking about angels and spirits and stuff. We're talking about the meat and potatoes practical tools. We talk about the practices because that's what they can connect with and try and see for themselves works, right? So it's like understanding that you meet people where they're at, no matter what their belief system is or whatever their level of personal development is. Um and what it's really about is having respect for their framework and their way of relating with the world. We all come to it in our own way and in our own time. You know what I'm saying? Yes. Yeah.

Frank:

Yes.

Rosa:

But I don't end up with a lot of arguments with people because of how I approach and make space for them. Because what ends up happening is that they approach me instead. And then it's an invitation, you know?

Frank:

Right. How dare you be open-minded. The the okay, let me ask you qu a question real quick. Uh, how is how uh your your various skill sets here? How are what does this look like in execution now? Are you actively using your PhD or is it mostly the hypnotherapist stuff, or are you do you you're doing both? What is it?

Rosa:

I do a lot. So um I I have a lot of technical skills because my PhD was in computational astrophysics. So I still am actively involved in research. I have grad students that I work with. Um, I also contract working like in the machine learning space. So I really like mission-focused work that's like save the environment and you know, stuff like that. I'm very much I'm big on like nurture and love and save the world, is like totally where I'm at. Um, so the technical skills I have, very happy to apply them to those types of things. While at the same time, I have a professional practice. So I do see one-on-one clients for hypnosis. I do workshops a lot. Uh, I get a lot out of doing this work in community with people. Um, and in fact, I find that workshops are really ripe space for big work to happen. What's interesting in hypnosis sometimes? So I'll do these past life regression workshops where let's say I have like 10 people come together and none of them know each other. They've never met before, they just came because they were curious or whatever. So some people are true believers, some people are like, I don't even know what this is, my wife made me come, you know. So we get the full range. Yeah. And then stuff will happen where we'll do the regression and come back, and everyone gets a chance to talk about if they're comfortable, they get a chance to talk about what they just experienced. And I've had on multiple occasions, two people who didn't know each other will have a regression experience where they are together in the regression.

Frank:

Wow.

Rosa:

So I had one example where two women went back to medieval times and one was the husband and one was the wife. And when one of them was describing her experience in the regression, the other one was just sitting there with her jaw on the floor. Like because they had the same regression. Just one was the wife and one was the husband, and they realized like they came together and met each other again in this life. Like, how do you explain that? That is really That is so amazing. I've had right. I've had evidential regressions where someone uh got so much information from the past life regression that they were able to go get on archives and find the person that they were.

Frank:

You know, uh that's gotta be like disorienting, just a little bit.

Rosa:

Well, but I mean, maybe, maybe, but but then you know, I had a second uh not a session with this woman. I sometimes we just have to talk to each other. It's not a hypnosis session, it's like a I call them integration sessions, which is when we discuss what happened and try to put it into context and help people settle down and bring it into their belief system because sometimes it can be jarring, right? And when we had this conversation, um, and she presented me with this information, and we were looking at the historical records, and I was like, well, this is fantastic because I have never spent much time on evidential past life regressions because it's not my thing, it's not important to me. I care about the results. Like, are is it helping you? You know, but um but she was like, What does this all mean? Was that person even me? Because she realized she had tapped into this other lifetime, but um, but she wasn't even sure that it was her, but she got all this evidence. And when in the discussion that we had, it's like, well, why would she have such a specific uh regression with all this specific information, even if it was her, like what is the point? Because it's like this guy was a sea, like a boat builder, like um like a like of big ships, like back in the 1600s or something. So that I don't know the name for that job, but it was a very specialized, highly technical leadership role. Um, and she's like, I don't really have issues, I don't like love sailing or something. Like, what is this about? And sometimes, and I see this a lot in my big long sessions with single clients, the higher self explains that the reason they had this strange experience was because their ideas about reality and the self needed some expanding. It is opening the door, it's an invitation, and if you want to fold up that invitation and put it in the trash, you can.

Frank:

Or not listen to it for eight years.

Rosa:

That's right. Yes, but most people find that hard because most people find that it kind of keeps it keeps like poking them, or it it's like an itch that doesn't go away unless you do something about it, right?

Frank:

Yeah, you know, even subconsciously, I feel like we we as a people spend so much time uh wondering about the the model that is existence. And uh like and if you don't, like you're probably turning something off that you shouldn't have turned off, just that that blatant curiosity, right? But then to like ha get like a funny answer from like a really not a funny, I mean like an interesting answer from uh a regression, and then to not listen to it. Yeah. It's gotta be this thing that just eats you alive, and or like the thing that uh oh my, I couldn't imagine. I couldn't imagine. But also, yeah, like having like living in a safe, predefined space for yourself, like will only take you so far. And at some point you're uh I always feel like I always feel like uh in spirit, we're always given an option between the easy way and the hard way. And if you're not taking it the easy way through someone nice and loving like you, then you're gonna get it the hard way. And listen to the recordings.

Rosa:

Yeah, it's true. The teachers do get tougher the longer you ignore the lesson that is that is inviting you in.

Frank:

Oh, so you've experienced this too.

Rosa:

Oh, all the time. Look, what was my 20s, you know? Yes. So yeah, I got a chance to live through the loops where the hammer gets bigger and bigger every time, and you're still avoiding and you're still avoiding until finally, you know, people have what I call their tower moment. Like in tarot, there's the tower card where everyone's jumping out of the window and the tower burns down. That is what is waiting for you if you keep avoiding your work. Not to like freak people out. It's more like this is me saying there's another way to do things. When the lesson comes for you, say yes. Right. Yeah. You know, or if you don't have any bandwidth, like when my daughter was really small and wasn't sleeping a lot, and I had like zero bandwidth, and a lesson would show up, I would be like, Can it wait? You know. So there are definitely times where I didn't have the bandwidth, but I also have trust. I know that when I say can it wait, the answer is also yes. And when it comes around again, I need to be more aware and check in and say, oh, this is that same thing as last time. Like, I want to handle it when I can, and that way the process is more gentle. Like that's a very real phenomenon.

Frank:

I was gonna ask you way earlier on, like, if you've had any latent like psychic uh abilities, like come online or anything like that, because we talk about that so much on the show. Oh, you have.

Rosa:

Uh, I have really I so this is something I do have strong beliefs about, but I bet y'all hear this all the time. Let's hear it. I think er I think everybody has the same capacity to uh use uh psychic gifts or whatever. You they have all kinds of names. Some people call them like the Claire's, like Claire uh, well, I mean, hence your the your podcast title, right? But it's like Claire audience, Claire Sentience, et cetera, et cetera. Um, I really think that these skills and capabilities are present in all human beings. Um however, the bigger question, so I I've been thinking about this actually. I have a lot of clients who come to me, and one of their big things they want to work on is they want to develop their psychic ability. They either have had like little uncontrolled circumstances where they're like, I had, I had four, like I could see into the future this one time and it helped me avoid a car accident, but I want to tap into that and use it more or something like that. They, or I want to be a medium, or or I wanna, you know, I have a friend right now who's training to become like a forensic, uh, a forensic medium to like help law enforcement and stuff. So like, and the question I always ask, I'll get to I'll skip to the end and then I'll come back to my question. In their sessions, what the higher self keeps telling these people is what's the rush? Why do you need more skill than you have in this moment? And that's the question you have to answer for yourself because understanding why you want greater capacity is the key to unlocking it. For some people, it's like, uh, I want to help people. For some people, it's like I'm just curious. And what you'll find is that people who want to use it in service of others can very quickly develop it just through practice, like literally just practice. Um, and then people that are more like curiosity driven or almost it's almost like a superpower thing, like I want to be able to use it to make money or something like that, they'd stumble over it. Yeah. So, in a sense, what is motivating you has a lot to do with the role those skills end up playing in your life. And in a sense, that's why for me, I have never spent what I have spent time doing is learning how to navigate and master my levels of consciousness. That is what I've spent time on. Is like some people might it's related to like astral projection and stuff like that. But what it really is for me, it's not about flying over to see what some CIA base looks like at all. Don't care, whatever. That's not my thing. It's about shifting through levels so that I can understand from higher perspectives the patterns in human behavior. I am trying to help the world. So it's like when I am shifting in my consciousness, it's to try to help solve problems and help people. And it's not so much about like seeing a thing that happened in the past or channeling someone else's higher self. I actually I'm gonna be careful with what I say because I want to be respectful of people's work. What I love about the approach I use is that it is the client's job to channel their high self so that it's not polluted by my lens. You know what I mean? Like I work very hard to be a clear channel because I want to hold a safe and loving space, not because I need to be the messenger of their purpose.

Frank:

Yeah, it's not your removing the unhealthy, unbalanced ego from it. I feel like that same mentality or that same space that you're coming from is the reason why you don't necessarily acknowledge, or it's not in your purview, the um limitations that other people might see. But you're like, you're you're trying to see everything from a higher perspective. So those limitations are only for them. It's their walls, not your wall. It's such an interesting perspective to me. I I love that. And such a non-egotistical perspective too, which I also love.

Rosa:

I think that's just the way of the future. Like, I don't even think that's a me thing. I think all of us are beginning to understand that having a heart of service is how we're gonna make this work, right? Like surely it's not just me, you know. Yeah.

Lauren:

Yeah. Like however you can, whatever your thing, like your whatever sparks joy and gets you to be truly of service to other people, like then you know, we always talk about that. Like one person's healing kind of trickles into other people, and you start making that really sparks change.

Frank:

And and to your other point, uh like I want to see ghosts so bad, but it's just not really happening.

Lauren:

But see, maybe your higher self would be asking why.

Frank:

I know, but there's no and I'll tell you why, because that's cool. And that's not necessarily it's not necessary. What I am doing is I'm starting to work out my own emotions better to where I can feel other people's emotions and help them sort those out. And that's where I'm like, well, that's not as tangible as seeing a spooky dude.

Rosa:

But look, if you really need it, I heard that there's this ride at Disney World where you can go. I think I know the one that's sitting in the booth next to you if you've gotta have it.

Lauren:

And they say, watch out if someone comes home with you.

Rosa:

Yeah. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. Um I have a story very that like that tracks with what you just said though. Um, because again, like this is me feeling like a very meat and potatoes person. Sure. I have never seen a ghost. I have had some spooky experiences, but nothing I could see, right? Um, nor have I seen Bigfoot or you know, his associates. You know, like I have not seen his stamina colleagues, yes. The big feet. Right. The feet, yeah. I have not seen uh I've I've right. I have not had anything like that in my life. And I was talking to my husband, and I had to sit down with myself, um Because I mean, I don't, I'm not gonna like dive into the alien rabbit hole or whatever, but it's like suffice to say, I'm fairly convinced it's a spiritual phenomenon. But I was thinking to myself, like, well, these poor people have had these really intense experiences. And I would like to think about myself that if I saw, you know, somebody land from another planet, that I'd be like, hey, what's up? Let's hang out. What is interesting? What why are you here? What's interesting to you? And then I when I sat down and really tried to like conjure in my imagination how I would really feel having an experience like them, where like they're coming in your bedroom and stuff. You're right. So it's like I imagine myself, I'm in my bed and I'm looking at the foot of my bed, and in my mind's eye, I'm conjuring, okay, an entity just walked through the wall and is standing at the foot of my bed, and I just peed my pants.

Frank:

Yes.

Rosa:

You know, so like in my mind's eye, in my mind's eye, I did. Not in real life, but like that's what I'm saying is like I realized in trying to envision like envision that moment, I'm not psychologically prepared to actually go through this situation. So I am perfectly happy to not go through it. Thank you very much. I'm good.

Frank:

Wait, I have this brings me up. Oh God, I have so many questions for you. But I I do have a question because you're you were talking earlier about being somewhat at somewhat adjacent to um like astral projection.

Rosa:

Do you actually practice that or uh I have done, yeah. I have practiced it actively. Um now I would call what I do, uh I would call it dream walking. Sure. Slightly different from astral projecting in that like uh I'm not it's not an intentional practice where I'm like, I would like to hop out tonight and go visit this thing or visit this person. I don't do that. I have a lot of faith, especially actually for my hypnosis practice. I have faith in my higher self, understanding the work that's needed. And so I'm very like open about it. I'm like, I'm going to bed, whatever comes up, comes up, and that's okay.

Frank:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rosa:

Yeah. But um, but so what is happening uh in the past, actually, this I remember this beautiful moment where uh we were at home, it was COVID, we had a newborn baby, and things were getting really hard because we it was lockdown, we're alone, we're we're nobody sleeping. Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, and so everyone's really stressed and having a hard time. Me and my husband had a big fight. It was awful. And we went to sleep. Uh, I was studying Bob Monroe's work at this time. Maybe y'all have heard of him. He's sort of I I would say he's the father of astral projection in a in a way. So if you haven't heard read his books, he's still gone. But his uh research institute is called the Monroe Institute. It's still out there in Virginia.

Frank:

Yeah.

Rosa:

So yeah, yeah. So that's Bob Monroe. I was studying his work at this time. And so I'm all heartbroken, horrible fight, tiny baby, went to bed that night to go to sleep. And I was like, I'm doing it tonight. I'm gonna astrophysic, you know. So I like set my intention. I'm out of here. I'm out of here. Yeah. And uh, and you know, my husband and I went to bed like facing away from each other without a word. Very sad, right? Well, I went to sleep, and almost immediately I found myself floating above us, floating above our bodies on the bed and looked down. I was like, Oh, I'm out. And I'm looking at my body, I'm like, oh, there's me. And then I look over and I'm like, oh, there's him. And then I look to my left and he's there floating next to me. What? He was floating next to me and he was so happy to see me, and I was so happy to see him. It was like all it was was like love and friendship and fun. And I realized in that moment that on the other side of like the window dressing of our life dramas, yeah, we were still completely best friends, yeah, and like completely just delighted to be together, just to be together and just in each other's presence. And um, and that really healed my heart in that moment and really helped me let go of the difficulties we were having. But it doesn't stop there. We went off on this grand adventure together, and I won't get too into the details, but in the morning, I woke up and I asked him, Did you dream last night? And he was like, Yeah. And I was like, tell me what you dreamt. And what we discovered is that although how we interpreted what we saw was different, but what we saw was the same. In his dream, we were together. And in my dream, we went off to a house, like a living room with a bunch of furniture in it, where we were traveling through time in the house. So it's like it was on fast forward while we watched this person kind of go through their life. And somewhere in the timeline, he wandered off and we got separated. And I was like, shoot, I don't know when he jumped off, so I don't know where to like rewind back to. And that was kind of the end of the dream. I was like, Oh, we got separated, and I went home, right? Went back to my body. In his dream, we were together at a Home Depot in the furniture section. Oh. So we so he was in this sort of living room setup where you know how they sometimes have like the fridge and the windows and like kind of set it up like a house. That's where we were together. But in his dream, he just went out to the car to wait for me to finish up. Oh my god. And I never came. So he went back to his body, right? So it's it was this interesting moment where it's not just this thing we experience on our own, it is also something we do together. And getting to visit with the consciousness of a loved one in that other space, nothing is hidden. And I think that's why it became so important to me to really get the channel clear because your whole self, whether you're unhealed or whatever your hangups are, is on show over there. And that it's not like you should be embarrassed, but it's actually a really good way to calibrate where you don't have good self-regulation and where there's something you need to address. So, in a sense, it's like it's less about what we're doing on the other side. It's more about what it teaches us about where our work is so that we can show up with other people in the right way, you know, in a supportive way. Um, dream walking, on the other hand, always feels like work in a way. It's like I'm clocking in and there's something that needs to be done. And then I come back. And it's way less directed by me than astral projection. Astral projection feels very much I'm driving the bus and I want to go visit this thing. Um, but I, you know, I have old issues with control. So it actually helps me to practice staying in this open way and saying, I trust that I'm shown that I'm ushered off to where I'm needed, you know.

Frank:

That's so I haven't I haven't heard anybody make that distinction between the dream walking versus astral projection.

Lauren:

Sorry, I love too that like you but when because you uh went to sleep mad at him, and like I love that when you recognized him in this space, it was just so like sweet and full of love and like remembering like, oh yeah, I'm not that mad at you. Like, I'm not mad at you at all. I love you. I love that, yeah.

Frank:

Yeah, it's also interesting that story because um, you know, I I always uh when I talk to like my daughter when she's had like a weird dream, and I I'm always saying, Okay, well, you know, sometimes our dreams are your brain is trying to make sense of emotions or something you're experiencing, right? So like what's happening in your dream doesn't make sense, but how it makes you feel might make all the sense. So let's talk about that. And it's so funny because I feel like you and your husband got two perspectives of the same thing, him being in a Home Depot, which is like this very human veil that was put over like a very spiritual experience uh that you were expecting you were like, I don't know, mainlining with the actual spiritual spiritual experience. That's so funny to me. Like I that's a rad story.

Rosa:

Yeah. Well, and it does it also teaches you something about our lens and the way our brain or our mind, our sense of mind uh constructs the the kind of theater of the dream in a way. Because it's like all of the set pieces in it are just ways to help our brain interpret the actual information, right? Uh, but then naturally it's going to be different for everyone. That's why I kind of I feel a little funny. Like I love Jungian psychology, but the dream interpretation is a little sticky for me because I don't believe it's universal. I think it's culturally sound, but only if you come from a culture that that is from the same, that uses the same frameworks as European culture, right? So it's like if you're not coming from a European background, the symbolism in your dreams should be different. You know what I'm saying?

Frank:

That's so funny. I always talk about like youngin' stuff, but I haven't studied an ounce of it. But it's it's so uh uh relevant and even like surface level conversations, uh you know who to attribute certain concepts to. Yeah. But I haven't looked at dream interpretation.

Rosa:

So he has this like a set symbolism for yes, and I would just say, please just keep in mind European white guy. Okay. So seriously, well, and I gotta tell you this about Bob Monroe, too. If you go read his books, please remember he is a product of his time, and there are some things he says that really don't land with the way modern people talk about gender and and things and race and culture. And so it's really hard sometimes because we want to editorialize or almost change the way he said something. Um but when it comes down to it, I mean, that's also true of people we love, like Alan Watts and Aldous Huxley, who are very famous in this space. It's like we got to remember these are a bunch of white dudes, privileged white dudes. Um, and because of that, uh there are certain ways that they look at these processes and look at uh through the lens of dominant culture. And something I've been exploring myself is actually asked, you know, I got really called out in this sense. So I am of mixed heritage. When I was a child, I did not look like a little white girl, though I'm very white passing now. So, in a sense, I got to live on both sides of that coin as a person who was like actively silenced and oppressed and underestimated, and live as a person who was easily celebrated and can get all these achievements and stuff. So it's like I've been on both, and my journey right now in my spiritual education, I would say, is seeking out uh these marginalized voices and learning about the practices from people that are that are within their cultures of origin. Um I need that perspective. And because I'm an academic, I have always pursued the academic take. But guess what? It's almost always white men. And though I love white men and I'm married to a white man, theirs is not the only valid perspective. So that's something I'm I'm like in pursuit of, you know.

Frank:

So cool. I had I had so many questions for you, but I don't think I'm gonna have time. Let me materialists suck. Blah, blah, blah. Um, it's funny. You started talking about stuff. I was like, oh, I want to talk to her about like the quantum field and like electrical phenomenon and us interacting, interacting like unknowingly with each other's space, but maybe for another time.

Rosa:

Yeah. You sketched out a six-hour interview.

Frank:

I did. I wanted to ask you about materialists being inherently pessimistic. And all right. How about this? How about thank you so much for hanging out with us today? And can you please tell everybody uh your plugs? Tell tell everybody where they can find you.

Rosa:

Oh, sure. Okay. So uh I'm very active on Instagram, so that's actually how I'd recommend finding me. My handle is it's rosahope. Uh, I'm also like, I don't know, I'm kind of on Facebook, but it's like they skew like older and more argumentative, so I don't spend like a ton of time on there. Also, all my offerings are on show at rosa-hope.com. And if you want like a little gift from me, you can go to rosadhope.com slash bonus. Uh, and I have a little hypnosis journey for you that you can download for free. So feel free to reach out. I love meeting people who have like heard these cool conversations and uh and would love to stay in touch.

Frank:

Cool.

Lauren:

Thank you so much. What a what a lovely conversation. You are you are awesome.

Rosa:

Thanks. I appreciate well, like y'all are a hoot too. This has been so nice. Thanks for hanging out with me, though. Like, this has been this has been very cool, and I like you guys.

Frank:

Oh, I like you. Thank you for listening. Visit ClareVoyaging.com for merchandise or to access free resources to help you on your spiritual journey. Subscribe to our Patreon for more content or join for free to chat with us. Clare Voyaging is a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501c3 charity. Make a tax deductible donation to support our mission to foster understanding, respect, and curiosity for diverse spiritual belief systems. Claire Voyaging is a production of Wayfeather Media.

People on this episode

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Frank A. Leon

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Lauren Leon

Co-host

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