Clairvoyaging

095: Somatic Therapy, the Inner Child, and Nervous System Healing // with Megan Sherer

• Wayfeather • Season 1 • Episode 95

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Your body has been trying to talk to you—through tight shoulders, the jaw that clicks, and the tears that show up in a hip opener. We invited somatic therapist and hypnotherapist Megan Sherer to help us translate those signals into clarity, relief, and real change. Together we explore how emotions live in the nervous system and in fascia, the connective tissue that touches every muscle, organ, and nerve. When safety and movement return, that energy releases as heat, tremor, or tears.

We dig into the difference between being trauma informed and trauma trained, why certain breathwork styles can overwhelm without the right container, and where talk therapy helps—and where it stalls. Megan walks us through attachment styles without turning them into identity traps.

We also connect ancient wisdom and modern science, linking meridians and qigong to fascial lines, and bring nuance to cortisol and stress physiology. Most importantly, we share a simple starting point: honor your body’s basic cues. Eat when you’re hungry, rest when you’re tired, pee when you need to, step away when you’re overloaded. That small honesty builds interoception and trust so bigger emotions feel safer to process. If you’re ready to stop overriding and start listening, you’ll leave with a clearer map for nervous system care, relational healing, and sustainable self-respect.

If this conversation resonated, tap follow, share it with a friend, and leave a five-star review. 

To work with Megan:

Visit: www.megansherer.com

Clairvoyaging is now a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501(c)(3) charity, so any donations are now tax deductible. If you’d like to support our projects that aim to foster understanding for diverse spiritual belief systems, visit www.clairvoyaging.com/support. 

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Lauren:

Greetings, Moonbeams and Angel Dreams. In today's episode, we talked to Megan Sharer, a somatic therapist, hypnotherapist, and nervous system practitioner. We discussed how our bodies process and hold on to emotions, and Frank's new obsession with fascia, aka Frank's Fascia Nation.

Frank:

I'm good.

Lauren:

I'm Lauren Leon.

Frank:

And I'm Frank.

Lauren:

We are a married couple learning how to develop our own intuition, and this is episode 95 of Claire Voyaging. Wayfeather Media presents Claire Voyaging.

Frank:

Hi.

Lauren:

Hi, Poppies.

Frank:

How's it going, guys?

Lauren:

Hi, hello out there in the audio world. Damn. I know. It's so good.

Frank:

Give her a give her a broadcast show live. Give her a mic, put her on the air. They will come. They will come.

Lauren:

She has the good words. Guys, we got a good one for you today.

Frank:

Yes, we do.

Lauren:

Before we do that, just a little reminder, because we said we're gonna do this more. Five-star reviews are so welcomed, and they help our little show grow.

Frank:

So give it the cinco.

Lauren:

Thank you. Give it for doing that. Give it the cinco. And you know it, give it five.

Frank:

Throw in a little comment too. People see a comment, they're like, oh dang.

Lauren:

I really like the show.

Frank:

That's from a real person.

Lauren:

Oh, hey. That's nice. That's our three-year-old, I guess. Responding. Oh, real people.

Frank:

Yeah, who listen to our podcast.

Lauren:

They really like it.

Frank:

Club watching? Really awesome.

Lauren:

Uh, it's like really good. Um, thanks for that. Also, guys, hop on over to Patreon. You wanna be a member? You wanna be a member? Guess what? It's only four dollars a month. What? It's only four dollars a month. That's so cheap. If you didn't hear me, it's four dollars per month.

Frank:

Wait, what?

Lauren:

Four, four, one, two, three, four.

Frank:

That's still so cheap. It's really good.

Lauren:

So those are our those are our pitches. Our our little uh calls to actually pitches. Pitches get stitches. Um, and now let's just get straight to chatting with Megan.

Frank:

All right, Lauren, send it off.

Lauren:

And up to the moon we go. Well, Megan, we're so happy to have you on Claire Voyaging today. Thank you for joining us. We love a little backstory. We love it, we love a good, like, who are you? So can you tell us who are you and what brought you into the work that you're doing?

Megan:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me here. I will try my very best to sum up who I am and what I do into something sort of concise. Um, what I do is that I'm a somatic therapist and I primarily support people in healing attachment wounds and ultimately like having a better relationship with themselves and their feelings so that we can have better relationships with other people. And how I got here is like a lot of people in any sort of healing profession, it really started with my own struggles and my own learning and growth and exploration and healing. Um, I definitely didn't start out on the path of like, I want to be a therapist or I want to be in a helping profession. Um I was in the health and wellness space when I first started my career, um, when I was in my early 20s. And I just happened to go through a series of sort of back-to-back traumas, all one after the other. When I was 21, I was in a traumatic car accident that really shook up my life significantly, and was also in a very unhealthy relationship at the time and very unhealthy kind of community situation at the time that all was sort of just this convergence for me to finally take a look at deeper underlying patterns of how I had been really externalizing my self-worth. Like I was one of those um kids and people who grew up overachieving and performing and and very much a perfectionist. And like, if I just do all the right things and check all the right boxes, then I will be enough and I will be lovable and I will be worthy and I will feel okay. But I did all the things and I never quite felt okay. I never quite felt quite felt good enough or worthy or lovable. And so kind of thanks to all of these really intense experiences that I went through at 21, it forced me to dive really deep very quickly into any healing modality I could find and get my hands on. And um, I really kind of went hard in in self-exploration and healing and personal growth and found a lot of incredible practices and practitioners as a result of that. And then ultimately realized this was work that I wanted to do as well and went back to study and you know the rest is history.

Lauren:

Wow. Okay. Can you give because I feel like somatic is like a word that's the first thing I'm gonna say?

Frank:

Yeah, you can be used somatic in so many ways.

Lauren:

And I'm and incorrectly too. Oh, okay. Okay, yeah, say more about that, please. Um, I feel like a lot of people, at least because I think because we're in this space now, like I'm just seeing the word somatic like constantly. And can you def can you give your definition and also how it's used improperly?

Megan:

Absolutely. Thank you for starting here. Starting there. Oh my gosh. Yes. Um, so we'll start with just the word itself. The the root word soma just means body. So somatic modalities, somatic practices are really anything that leads with our bodily experience. And we can just kind of take that in contrast to um the therapeutic modality that most people are most familiar with, like psychotherapy, traditional talk therapy, which prioritizes cognition and the mind and the intellect, how we think about things. So when we're instead taking a somatic approach to healing, we're interested in how the body is processing, feeling, understanding, and experience. And kind of like you alluded to, I think that word is getting thrown out there a lot right now. It's super trendy buzzword. Somatic work is nothing new. In fact, it's like very, very ancient, like thousands of years old indigenous cultures. Like we've been practicing somatic work for a very, very, very long time. When I say we, I mean human beings, um, without necessarily labeling it that. And somatic practice is really intrinsically um rooted in Eastern healing practices, like traditional Chinese medicine, like Ayurveda, um, shamanic practices. Like most non-Western healing practices center the body and really actually revere the wisdom of the body and the fact that our body knows a lot more than we give it credit for. And in Western healing practices and modalities, it's a lot of pedestalizing the mind and mindset, willpower, like think your way through it type thing.

Frank:

Yeah.

Megan:

Yeah. Yeah. So somatic work just re-centers the body. And the reason I was saying, like, it's kind of misused a lot of the times is because it's a buzzword, because like nervous system regulation is super trendy right now. I think people are sort of quick to um slap the word somatic onto whatever they're already doing as sort of a marketing ploy. And like I will see on social media all the time, like somatic weight loss techniques, like somatic, like things that I'm just like, oh no, no, no, no. That's not that's not the point. That's not the intention of what we're doing here. Or even taking what could be a somatic tool, like breath work, and assuming that it's trauma-informed just because we call it somatic, which is not necessarily the case. There's a lot of breath work out there that is not necessarily a trauma-informed somatic therapeutic practice, even though it's a body-based tool. So there's just like some gray areas, and um, ultimately, I'm a big fan of whatever gets people back in relationship with their bodies and listening to their bodies and sensations and emotions again. Um, but it can, the lines can get a little blurry sometimes.

Frank:

Can you please also define the concept of being trauma informed? Because I'm seeing that thrown around a lot in in correct ways.

Megan:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think this is really important to lead with because um because we're getting a lot of great information and education on social media these days to learn more about ourselves, but there's also the potential for misinformation and miseducation and sometimes harm. Um so trauma exists on a spectrum, like we may or may not know, like there's big T trauma, little T trauma, meaning like big overt experiences that anybody would consider um harmful, traumatizing, um, severe. And like you could point to that and be like, yeah, that would mess anybody up, kind of thing. And then little tea trauma that's more subtle and nuanced and exists on more of how like how our individual psyche perceived an experience and whether or not we felt isolated in it, and and how our nervous system responded to it. So being trauma informed essentially means that you have been trained or or learned as a practitioner, practitioner of any kind. This could be a therapist, a yoga teacher, breath work facilitator, a coach, that you have the understanding that like trauma is probably in the room with us, especially if we're working with the body, especially if we're talking about emotions, if we're moving through potentially emotionally charged experiences. We're acknowledging that like everybody's got varied experience lived experience, and trauma is probably on board, especially if you're teaching like a class, a workshop with many people who all have different backgrounds. Somebody there might have a sensitive history, a trauma history. And so if we're trauma informed, we're mindful of that. And we're mindful of the way that we offer tools and techniques and um that we teach in a way that's not going to re-traumatize somebody, that's going to offer um possibly modifications for people who might have a trauma history. So just a simple example. If somebody does have a trauma history and has experienced like physical abuse, let's say, or sexual abuse, or a really challenging relationship with their body, where it actually doesn't feel good, doesn't feel safe to be in the body. It feels safer to numb and like check out and dissociate. Telling a person like that to just like get into your womb space and like feel all the sensation there, like get into your heart, like feel everything that your body's feeling. That's gonna be way too much too soon for that person if they haven't already processed the their trauma history in the way that they need to in a safe therapeutic setting.

Frank:

Also, kind of a kind of a funny language barrier as well. There's like terminology that feels very gatekeeping, you know?

Megan:

Totally. They're gonna be like, oh, that doesn't apply to me. I'm not like at that level, I can't do that. Like it's already sort of ostracizing.

Frank:

Um and also no matter how much I look, I still can't find my womb. So I don't know.

Megan:

Like, how do I get there? Where is it? What does it mean? What?

Frank:

Can someone buy me a copy of Gray's Anatomy, please? Because I'm having a hard time.

Megan:

Exactly. And even if we're like not using the sometimes woo-woo ostracizing healing language that that can turn people off a bit, even if we're just leading a breathwork session, acknowledging that certain types of breath work that are very activating put the body into a sympathetic fight or flight state, which can remind us of a time in our past where we felt very overwhelmed in a traumatic experience and it can be re-traumatizing. And if that teacher, that practitioner isn't aware of that, it can cause harm to the people that they're trying to help, that they're trying to facilitate. Right. I have heard that.

Frank:

I have heard that like a breath work is not like an introductory like uh method in in into like uh uh addressing your traumas.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

That that could be it's kind of an advanced level stuff because it can it can really dig in there quickly. It's kind of violent.

Lauren:

I've never done breath work before, but like I could imagine, I know that there's one where you're like breathing in and out, like kind of rapidly. And I would imagine that that could trigger some like memory or something. And yeah.

Megan:

Yep.

Lauren:

There are would freak out a little bit.

Megan:

Exactly. Like that there's breath work is sort of an umbrella term because there's many different styles of breath work, but the one that you're referring to is sort of mimics um hyperventilation, where if you've had panic attacks in the past, like that's not gonna feel safe for you to just go into in like a class setting.

Lauren:

Yeah, right, right. Yeah.

Megan:

Yeah. And so the the trauma informed is like having the awareness, teaching in a safe way. But then trauma trained means that you actually have been trained, have the scope, the ability, the licensure, the certification to actually help somebody through trauma to process that trauma. So those that's an important distinction too. Like a breathwork teacher should be trauma informed. They should know that when they're teaching, that shit's gonna come up. Sorry if I can't swear here. No, but then to be able to then refer that person to a trauma-trained professional who can help them actively work through what they're working through. Does that make sense?

Frank:

Yeah. So we have trauma informed and then trauma trained.

Megan:

Yeah.

Frank:

And I'm these are two very different skill sets. One is knowing and one is knowing what to do after the trauma has been induced. Or is that yeah?

Megan:

So one is like acknowledging that it's in the room with us and we're being sensitive to that, mindful of that. We know when to refer out, like we know our limitations with like if I just teach breath work, that's my limitation. I'm not a therapist qualified to then lead this person through healing and resolving their trauma. Trauma trained is like I'm the person who has the modalities and the tools to help them resolve their trauma.

Frank:

Got it. That's a very important distinction to make. I never see that. I never see those that definition floating around.

Lauren:

I need to spread the word for a lot of yeah. I feel like it's a lot of trauma-informed, like when you see, you know, people who are, like you said, yoga teachers, breathwork, like coaches, any kind of practitioner. And that one even you want to be trauma-informed, yeah.

Megan:

Yeah. And that's another like sort of buzzword that can just like people can call themselves trauma-informed because maybe they've worked through their own trauma. And so they're like, I know about trauma, like I know that that exists. Right. Yeah. Not like how to actually hold safe space for other people.

Frank:

Yeah. Right. Right. Oh man, that's so important. In your experience, uh, what is the problem with Western style like cognition-based uh therapies and like like talking therapy?

Megan:

Yeah, I think I think that as a collective, we're very tempted by the idea of like a one-size-fits-all solution. Like we just want to like know what the one silver bullet magic pill is. Like, tell me the thing that I need to do or the book that I need to read to fix all my problems, and then I'll be better. And I think the problem with especially like intellectually focused approaches is that they're not bad. They're actually like the first step for a lot of people. Like awareness is the first step, right? We need to be aware of our problems. We need to be able to talk about what we've experienced in order to even get any deeper. So that's like the gatekeeper. And talk therapy is a super beneficial modality for a lot of people. And it has limitations because it keeps us at that level of cognitive processing, which isn't where change happens. Like awareness is not where the change happens. That's five percent of the equation, tip of the iceberg. The change occurs and like the real where our habits, beliefs, daily um choices come from is that 95% beneath the surface, which is our subconscious mind and our body and our nervous system experience. Um, so I'm not ever gonna say like therapy's bad, but you know, maybe you know those people who have been in therapy for years and years and years, and they're talking about the same things and they feel like they're just venting every week, like cycling through the same problem, but nothing has changed in their life. That's the limitation.

Frank:

Right.

Lauren:

Yeah. I yeah. The where there's like oh, there's been some improvement in maybe a little bit of behavior, maybe a little bit of understanding. But yeah, like going deeper, you like the people that are in therapy for like 10 years, and you're like, Well, we're still we're still here. We're still talking about that same thing.

Frank:

Well, I mean, to your point, like you're addressing only 50 well, probably probably less than that, but let's say 50% of the system that makes you operate, how you interface with the world, right? People know, like, oh yeah, I got a problem. And then it's very easy to start identifying with that problem, saying, Oh, this is like I've identified that I have this issue. And then you're like we love a label. Yeah, everyone loves the label, and then they have suddenly that spark of of like recognition. I feel like you need to work with that motivation to then quickly get to the next part. Otherwise, you start living into the narrative of the I know this about myself. I I hate I hate when people wear purple. Uh it just makes me so pissed off. You know, oh take my purple shirt off, man. I've got a problem with your purple or whatever. It's something stupid.

Megan:

Yeah, like this is my trigger, so it's but it's your problem. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Frank:

You just know enough to be dangerous, you know?

Megan:

Yeah, exactly.

Lauren:

Yeah, that's exactly what it is. This is my trigger, so it's your problem. Like I know it exists, but now I'm making you responsible for it exists. Yeah, yeah. Like I'm not actually gonna change it. I'm just aware of it. And so are you.

Megan:

We see this a lot. Like the example that I use the most because I work in in this realm and I think it's so relevant right now is attachment styles. Like that has become so trendy over the last few years. Everybody has maybe like taken the quiz or read enough social media posts to be like, oh yeah, like I'm anxiously attached, or I dated a guy and he's avoidant. And like you can make it.

Lauren:

Yeah, I don't, I actually don't either.

Megan:

So yeah. This is a whole can of worms.

Frank:

Okay.

Megan:

Okay. How can I summarize this? Attachment theory is basically the um understanding of how how we interacted with our primary caregivers and our parents, like our parents andor primary caregivers in the early years of our life, taught our nervous system about how to attach, how to bond, what connection means, what we have to do in order to get love from the people around us. And that essentially maps on. To our adult romantic relationships. And so there's four primary attachment styles. There's secure attachment, which is what we would all ideally want to be experiencing, where like we're secure within ourselves and we can be vulnerable with other people. We can form healthy connections, have intimacy, not be scared of it, not be afraid that we're not fall into patterns because we're afraid that we're gonna get hurt. We can trust love, but we can also trust that if we if love goes away, we're gonna be okay. That's secure attachment.

Lauren:

Okay.

Megan:

Anxious attachment is where we feel like we're always grasping for it. Like we're really afraid of rejection and abandonment. And so we feel like we're we're not good enough and we need to like try harder, overgive, people please perform to go get it. Avoidant attachment is the person who who is also afraid of rejection and abandonment. Like at the end of the day, we're all afraid of like losing love or getting hurt. But their strategy, their coping mechanism is like put up a wall, push people away, shut down, numb out, rather than like when when connection feels like it's being threatened or when somebody feels like they're getting too close, we feel scared. So we avoid. That's the person who like will ghost someone when they're dating or shut down in a fight, in a conflict with their partner. Um, we avoid intimacy. The fourth category is disorganized attachment, which you sort of oscillate between anxiousness and avoidance, where like you really want love, but then you push it away. Like, please come closer. Oh, now you're too close. Go away. Kind of push-pull dynamic. So that has become popularized on social media in recent years, learning about what your attachment style is. But like to your point earlier, what I was gonna say is that a lot of people have then learned about their patterns and then latched onto this label of like, oh, well, I'm anxiously attached. So like you need to give me more attention in order for me to feel secure, or I'm avoidant. So you need to give me space in order for me to feel okay. And while it's really great to identify our emotional needs and patterns, the goal is actually to heal the root cause of those attachment wounds and build towards more secure attachment rather than just stay in the label forever.

Lauren:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So what is the work that you do to heal the heal the wounds?

Megan:

Great question. Um well, hold on.

Frank:

Let's back up a little bit. Yeah, what is your work in general first? And then maybe we'll get the healing. Lauren has Lauren has very specific questions around number two.

Megan:

Around the anxious attachment. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I I can understand why. Yeah, what do I do with this? Yeah, that's the work that I do. Um so essentially it's, you know, we talked about awareness. Like you become aware of this is my pattern, that's step one. Then what? Like, what do I do with this? And the the real change that occurs is when we learn to like take a holistic approach and look at how is this how is this pattern showing up in my life, in my choices, in my self-talk, in my nervous system. Um, and so the work that I do sort of blends a few different modalities, somatic practice, where we're understanding what's going on in my body with my emotions, with my nervous system, um, subconscious work, where we're actually getting to rewire beliefs that we formed as a result of those core wounds. Um, and parts work, which is essentially an exploration. It's kind of like I liken it to inner child work. It's an exploration of the younger parts of us that are still living in that old story of the wounding, of the thing that happened, and then carry this burden of like, I'm not good enough, I'm not lovable, no one will stay, no one sticks around for me, like whatever the story is, we have to actually work with those young parts of us that are still living there and carrying that burden. Um so it becomes this dance between becoming more and more aware, more observant of our patterns, thoughts, feelings, being able to attune to what's going on in our nervous system so that we can regulate enough to feel a feeling and identify what's the need beneath it, and then meet that need internally and then communicate in a healthier way to our partner or whoever it is in our life that we're wanting to be closer to. So it's a multi-step process, but I it works very well. Yeah.

Frank:

Can you do me a favor? Because we also throw people throw around inner child a lot. And it's it's actually one of those terms similar to somatic. I'm always, I always have, I'll find a thing to have an issue with. Um it's a term that's abused. Yeah. Inner child is abused. What what when we say inner child, I know you you gave us a brief definition just now, but like what is the when when we say inner child, are we talking about like 10 and under? Is it beyond that? Can you yeah, yeah. Can you give me a a range here of what's going on?

Megan:

Your timing is great because I I just taught a class on this this morning and last night. So I'm very immersed in this conversation right now. But yeah, before I answer, I would love to hear like what comes to mind for you when you hear Inner Child and and also like what's the problem that you have with it.

Lauren:

Ooh.

Frank:

Okay.

Lauren:

Oh, Megan's doing some work already.

Frank:

Um, so Lauren and I are in the process of like kind of building out our own kind of workshops to go through like a healing modality that we're in the middle of of developing. And um we will be sure to be trauma informed once we go to market with it. But when it comes to inner child stuff, so here's here's what I have an issue with. I I feel like there's an element of inner child work that that that same um methodology is appropriate to do with things that might have happened to you last week. So and that's kind of why I'm always like, why has it got to be child? Why can't it just be like inner? I I don't have a an uh a different definition for it. I suppose people throw the word shadow work around a lot, but same thing. It's like, well, what does that even mean? Like, I'm not I'm not young. No, hold on. I'm young and attractive, but I mean I'm not Carl Young. And you know, like not everyone has like the intimate knowledge of that definition. So for me, when I think of inner child work, I always think about what I do when I've done that kind of work is I go back, revisit a period of time where I experienced some kind of trauma, and I make sure that I'm there for myself, now being the like adult I needed for that that moment. But sometimes, like maybe I had a maybe I got really mad at the guy that was wearing a purple shirt last week, and I want to be like, you know what, Frank? Like, you really don't need to be mad at that guy. It's just purple, it's just a color. That's some people's favorite color, you know? It's okay. And I like mentally and like spiritually want to put a hand on my shoulder and be like, you're gonna be fine. You can walk away from this kind of thing. So I guess the the issue that I have with the term inner child is just the child part.

Megan:

Yeah. Yep. Um you're honestly really spot on there. So you might find a lot more resonance with this concept I mentioned called parts work. Um, the most well-known modality of parts work is IFS or internal family systems. I practice um a similar but different modality that focuses more on the somatic experience of our inner parts. And essentially, it's the acknowledgement that we do all have these inner parts of our experience. Some of them are younger, like an inner child, because you're an adult, let's say like 30-year-old adult today, but you were also once a five-year-old and a 10-year-old and a 15-year-old. And those versions of you don't go anywhere just because you're not that age in that sized body anymore. They're still part of your psyche. And they have their own belief systems and patterns and emotions and reactions to, like you said, what may have happened in the past. And you can go back in time and put a hand on that version of you and be like, you're good. I'm here with you now. Like you do have a safe, loving adult who's capable of taking care of you. And to your point, you could have had an experience last week where frustration or anger came out, and you're like, ooh, that version of me needs a little love. And maybe if you sat with that version longer and you unpacked it, you might find that that big emotional, angry, frustrated reaction actually was a younger part, but maybe it wasn't. And today you can still support a week ago you. It doesn't matter who is what age. What really matters is that you're learning to create that internal system of curiosity and compassion and support rather than like judging yourself for having the reaction.

Frank:

Well, that's cool.

Megan:

So good job.

Lauren:

It's so interesting because he because I I've been talking a lot more about inner child stuff in the last like year or so, and that's like where this conversation, I feel like, has come up because I'm like, oh, it's the it's that like little version of you that maybe didn't have control, like understanding or control over things and was traumatized in some way, and now as an adult, I can go, okay, like I understand this better on your behalf, little little Lauren, you know, and like um I've done a lot of healing in like let me let me write her a letter or you know, tell her all the things that like she needed to hear when she was four or six or twelve or whatever it was. Um the term I feel like because Frank, I've been like, oh, I want to do like an inner child workshop or something like that. And Frank will be like, but what how how old? What's the limit?

Megan:

The logical brain, yeah, goddess.

Lauren:

Yes. He'll be like, uh, are they 18? Is your inner child does it go until they're 18 or 15 or what?

Megan:

Yeah. I mean, here's the thing like language does matter, like we were talking about before. Some language can make people feel ostracized and not included in a self-conversation, in a in a conversation. I talk about this a lot with self-love. Like some people hear that term and they're like, that's not for me. I yeah, self-love, like, no, that's I can't even conceptualize what that would be like. That's too whatever. They don't believe they're that's a conversation for them. But maybe they can wrap their head around a con a conversation of self-respect, of caring for their body, of treating themselves in a way that is dignified and kind. So language really does matter. And if somebody's having a hard term time with the term inner child, like maybe we instead call it younger self. And it's more inclusive because yeah, your younger self also includes like 21, 22-year-old me when I was going through that very hard time. That version of me needed a loving adult. Like she was struggling. I can go back and support her if something's coming up from that period of time in my life. And maybe she wasn't a child, but it doesn't mean she wasn't still in need of some support.

Frank:

Right.

Megan:

Yeah.

Frank:

Right. And I do think it's important to acknowledge that like so many of our like foundational traumas do occur when you're like sub like eight. You know what I mean? So I I I totally like get why it's called inner child, but like that same method still works like forever. Like I think it's really powerful. So I'm always I'm always like, why are we calling it why why are we calling it that? Like there should be a larger umbrella. But I like I like the idea of parts work being like a terminology. Yeah, maybe that would be better with you. And that thank you for coming to uh our Frank and Lauren semantics uh conversations today.

Megan:

No problem. I think it's important because I think then it it welcomes some people in who might have not otherwise felt included in a healing conversation. And they're like, oh, okay, I could see why that would be beneficial.

Frank:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Yeah. I have to say, I mean, before I feel like this podcast, I would hear inner child and I'd be like, I don't, I don't not, I'm not quite sure if I understand. No one gave me the definition of that, and now I feel like too dumb to ask. Well, if we're just part of what this podcast has been, where we just we ask all the things we're like, I don't know what that is.

Megan:

So yeah, and nobody ever did tell us. And also, yeah, we have our own judgments. Like when I first heard about inner child work, I had a really defensive part of me that was like, that's dumb. I'm not a kid anymore. And like I'm a grown-up. I need to just like not like why would I go back in time? The past is the past. Let's focus on what I can do here and now. Like, I just didn't think it was relevant. I didn't want to complain about things that felt like they were out of my control because they already happened. And it felt silly to imagine like going and hugging a five-year-old version of me. Truly, I like really judged that idea. And that was a part of me that I had to really show some care and support to before I could even imagine loving the five-year-old version of myself.

Lauren:

Right. That's so true. I I've I've told people like, you know, close friends or or whoever, whoever will listen, that like get like talk to your your little, your young self or write them a letter or whatever. And saying it sometimes feels it really does feel silly if someone hasn't like considered doing that. Cause then it's like, I know it, I know, I know, it's gonna feel a little weird. But like, but maybe it'll work. But yeah, like it, yeah, I don't know. There's something something really powerful about that.

Frank:

Well, part of it, especially because of the angle that we're coming from. My one of my one of my issues with it with it in the first place was that you know, we come from like more more of a like a woo spiritual angle, right? So it's I was like, hold on, am I actually am I actually attempting to establish contact through time and space with an old version of myself? Or is this just a mental practice of me addressing something that I that I experienced? And the truth is from my perspective, it doesn't matter. No, and like it it works, which is kind of spooky if you think about it.

Megan:

Yeah, totally. It's like, yeah, maybe both. Like, we don't need to make this a podcast on like quantum mechanics, but like what is time, you know?

Frank:

Yeah, yeah.

Lauren:

Let's get into that. No, have you have you heard of anyone? I've seen like stories of people, just while we're on the topic, um remembering being like 10 and see like either seeing like a shadow of someone while they're having a hard time, they have like a memory of there's a shadow of someone who shows up like in a moment that where they need them, or they they need an adult or something like that. And then the adult version of them does a meditation and goes back and like visits that 10-year-old version of them. So they were actually seeing themselves somehow. Have you heard any of the I I probably didn't explain it very well, but no, yeah.

Megan:

I've totally heard crazy stories like that where someone like there's just like a weird, unexplainable thing. And then yeah, as an adult, you're like, whoa, maybe that was actually me.

Lauren:

Yeah. Like, oh, this woman came and visited me one one night and said like everything's gonna be okay. And then like I as an adult went back and told myself everything's gonna be okay. Yeah, like that's so wild. It feels like a movie, but but it happens. I've seen this enough stories of it that I'm like, oh, maybe people have done that.

Megan:

Yeah. Yeah, it's cool stuff. I'm a big fan of doing past self, future self type practices.

Frank:

Yeah. And that's like part of it too, right? Like if you can do this, if you can like potentially hill heal yourself regardless of the concept of time, like you could possibly do it with other lives and lifetimes of yourself too, which is something that I have been working on, which is uh probably a topic for another episode. But yeah.

Lauren:

Does any of your practice or like what are your thoughts on when people do like specific somatic exercises that are like, oh, if you like rub this area of your shoulder, you're gonna start yawning and then you're gonna maybe start crying, or like if you put your hips in this certain way, that those things. Yep. You know, like those are somatic exercises.

Megan:

Okay. So I'm gonna go where I think you're you're asking.

Frank:

Your guess is as good as any of ours.

Megan:

So I'll start with this. Are you familiar with the term fascia? Yes.

Frank:

Yeah, yeah. So our our audience might not be, if you don't mind.

Megan:

Yeah. For anybody who doesn't know, fascia is connective tissue. And our connective tissue is this sort of um like thin, wet, like almost like cotton candy type web of tissue that runs throughout your entire body. It wraps around every muscle, every organ, and your nervous system. It's everywhere. It's this one sort of like continuous piece of fabric under your skin in your body. And fascia is really, really important, not just for like physical health, but it plays a huge, huge role in emotional health. So most people here can probably relate to having experienced like physical pain of some sort, maybe even chronic aches and pains, like your neck always hurts, or you've got a bad hip, or you know, something from an old injury. Like if you injure yourself, you hurt your knee at some point in time. Your body develops um compensatory patterns, like you shift your weight more to the other side to favor your better knee. And then the muscles maybe become a little bit imbalanced or under or overdeveloped, and your fascia sort of contracts and hardens and calcifies in certain parts of the body as a result of physical injuries. It becomes a little bit denser, less oxygen, less blood flow in that area. And so we get stiff, we get kind of achy. The same thing is true though, with unprocessed emotional injury. So when we don't let an emotion fully flow through the body and express emotion how we're naturally designed to, um, the body sort of braces and and these patterns of contraction and density are created in our fascia and um can sort of harden, get stickier over time, and become what we then know as like my tense neck, my tight shoulders, my jaw that always clicks kind of thing.

Frank:

This seems like something everyone should know about.

Megan:

Yeah. I like geek out about fascia. I've so I'm trained in a modality of nervous system regulation that centers fascia and fascial release because so much of our dysregulation is is just intrinsically related to these patterns of tension in our body from unprocessed emotion. And yeah, people aren't talking about it enough. I'm seeing it a lot more on social media these days, but that might just be the, you know, my algorithm because I'm super interested in this stuff. But I'm trying to talk about it more so that more people learn because it's so important. And I think the easiest way to understand, like you were sort of alluding to like maybe I press on this certain part of my body. Maybe you've had a massage before where somebody's massaging a certain part of your body and you all of a sudden feel something, like you feel heat build up in that area. You feel an emotion rise up, you feel um sadness or agitation, or maybe you're doing a yoga class and you're holding a hip stretch and you feel like you want to cry all of a sudden. And you're like, where did that come from?

Lauren:

I did one when I was pregnant and I was like, why do I feel like I want to just sob? And because I don't know Maybe because you were pregnant, but also Yes. Yes, very true. But yeah, I think I left that class like, oh, I'm I like wept like Yeah.

Megan:

Yeah, it happens all the time. I teach therapeutic and somatic yoga when I lead retreats and I teach it with some of my clients. And and I'm not like trying to make them cry, but inevitably everybody cries, or everybody laughs.

Frank:

Like at some point, we all know that the the like signature, the signature, like you you know you did a good job of someone crying. You know, absolutely yes.

Megan:

Like having the perfect song and the right cospose, the right flow, and like it just got them right where they needed to be. He's like, We got one.

Frank:

Come on, give me those, give those tears, cry more. Give those tears right now.

Megan:

Such a win. Such a win. Honestly, though, I do love being bringing people back into their emotions, even if it feels like a little scary or overwhelming for them. Like eventually, the more you feel, the better you feel. And it's it's hard, but it's also cathartic.

Lauren:

Pressing on this, like either so it has to do with like releasing something that's in your fascia. That's like why that happens, because you've been storing stuff.

Megan:

Yeah. Okay. So imagine it like this. Like, let's say something happened to you. Again, this could be last year or in childhood. Let's say you were in a little car accident, like a fender bender, and it was enough of an impact that, like, that's scary. Somebody hit your back bumper, but not so much that it was like massively traumatic. You didn't get injured, nothing like happened. Um, but still, that's a stressor to your nervous system. Like, that's gonna put us into sympathetic activation, fight or flight mode. But our rational mind looks around and goes, Oh, I'm fine, everything's okay. I need to like exchange insurance information with this person and like handle the logistics of this, and I'm not hurt, so it's okay. But there was a stress response in the body. There was a buildup of this stress energy that we then like push down because we were like, I've got to handle shit and not deal with this. Um, and so that impulse, that somatic impulse, it doesn't just go away because we don't address it, it sort of gets suppressed and the body will usually it kind of gets held somewhere in a pattern of contraction or bracing or gripping around that stress response. So you've got this sort of like stress response and the fascia tightened around it. Then a year later, 10 years later, you go and do this yoga class or whatever practice you're doing, and you create first of all, you're already in enough of a safe environment, you're not in danger, so your nervous system senses safety. And then you create enough movement, enough mobility around that tightened place that that stress response has the chance to now move through the tissues again. And it can move as like activation, like shaking, it can move as emotional energy, like tears. Like it just wants to get out of the body. That's all. It wants to get released.

Frank:

You know, on occasion, we talk to somebody who doesn't know they just sent me on a journey.

Megan:

I feel like I've given you a lot of homework already.

Frank:

Man, I'm a very tense person, but like I'm always like, oh, I'm doing an internal work, like I'm healing, I'm healing. But I like I have a lot of a lot of body tension, and I just attribute it to like I should probably drink more water, which I should. But now I'm like, oh no. Yeah. And this is why the Grinch's heart is three sizes too small.

Megan:

It's just too much tension and contraction around it.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

Oh man. Okay.

Lauren:

Like specifically when you said like a small fender bender. I just thinking about that, like I remember driving to work one day. I was like 18 and got into it. I like rear-ended someone on my way, on my way to work, putting on lip gloss and the like traffic flowed. And exactly what you said, I had to deal with like okay, exchange stuff, and I had to get to work. So, like that thing of like that was super stressful. My my front bend my front bumper was completely, I said it was like frowning. It had completely like come undone, and I had to like drive to work, continue my day. And like just thinking about how I just pushed that completely down, but it was super stressful. I like wanted to cry about it, but I couldn't because it was like, no, you gotta hold it together. But just all those little things that you you go, I can't process that right now. I can't think about that right now. I gotta, I gotta go do this other thing. I don't have time for, you know, even 10 minutes of tears or whatever it is. Yeah.

Megan:

Yeah. Yeah. And that happens all the time in relationships. Yeah. Some like a disagreement happens and we're like, oh, I don't want to feel that. I'm gonna push that down. And sometimes it happens consciously where we say, like, I don't have time for this. I have to go to work. But sometimes it's an unconscious bias of I don't want to feel that because I don't have the bandwidth to feel something so uncomfortable or painful right now. So let's not look at that. And all that gets accumulated over time. It's not like like it's a physiological impulse. If you have to go to the bathroom in the middle of a meeting, you hold it till the end because you want to make it through the meeting, but then you don't just like not have to go to the bathroom because you held it, like you've still got to go.

Frank:

That'll reabsorb into your body.

Megan:

Exactly.

Frank:

Wait, can I ask you like what is this like a is this uh because I'm not like a again, like I said, I need a I need a copy of Grey's Anatomy, but is this like a newer thing that people are really realizing, like how much fascia affects?

Megan:

Yes and no. Again, I think that there's a lot of like, if we look way, way back, I think there's a lot of ancient indigenous window wisdom that like had an inherent understanding of how our connective tissue impacts us. Like the study of, like I said before, traditional Chinese medicine um and the meridian system, that is sort of inherently connected to our fascia. Like that, that's fascial medicine, basically.

Frank:

That's really funny because I I I I recently did a whole uh Reiki training thing. And I was kind of pouring myself over the meridian stuff. I'm like, wait, this seems because it was just kind of thrown out. I was like, oh, here and check this out. And I was like, check this out. This seems like this could be like a decade of study. What do you mean, check this out?

Megan:

Oh yeah, it's a lifetime of study.

Frank:

Yeah.

Megan:

Like the meridian, meridian lines are fascia lines, essentially. And like qigong, which is their movement practice, like their sort of meditative medicinal movement practice in the realm of TCM, that inherently helps loosen our tension and works with our fascia and helps us move emotion through the body and move energetic blockages. So, like, no, it's not new in that regard. And in the realm of like Western study and science and research, like it seems like this huge new discovery in the last 30, 40 years of, and there are incredible pioneers in the Western world in the last 30 or 40 years doing this research, which is amazing, but I think it's so important to say that it's not new.

Frank:

Right. Yeah, it's so funny. You know, one little discovery comes out, and then everyone's like, oh, everything else is old now. We we find a microorganism and now it's like meridian system, yeah, right. It was these all along. Um, it's so crazy how many times we find ourselves like rediscovering old wisdoms and in under new contexts.

Megan:

Yeah.

Frank:

And man, what the hell, dude?

Megan:

I know. We love colonizing stuff, don't we? We're like, I discovered this, it's mine, not yours. Like, I'm the hero here.

Frank:

What? So, I mean, according to the Meridian system, I know that like if we are kind of working off of that as a as a model, um, that will say that like, you know, that system speaks to almost every organ in your body. Are we saying the same thing about fascia? Like, tension can affect anything?

Megan:

100%. Because, like I said before, like I wasn't kidding when I said it's one continuous piece of fabric. Like it wraps around every muscle, every organ, every nerve in your whole body without stopping. So if you imagine like a big piece of fabric, if I pull on this end, something's gonna happen to this end. So if you pull on your foot, something happens up here. It's all connected.

Frank:

So it is why the Grinch's heart was three sizes too small.

Megan:

And also like attachment wounding, because he his parents gave him away and he wasn't raised. But yeah, like it's all there.

Lauren:

He has anxious, anxious, no, uh disorganized for sure. Oh, disorganized.

Megan:

He wants love, he wants love so bad that he pushes it away because he's scared of getting hurt again.

Frank:

Yeah. The Grinch. The poor ass Grinch.

Lauren:

Do some some inner child work, brother.

Frank:

That's so wild. Man, I am I am gonna go on a fascia journey now. It's funny because I'd heard about it, but I'm just like, oh uh uh, sure, it's some other thing that like we could point to. This seems like a big deal.

Lauren:

Yeah, big, big deal. Can um in your realm, does cortisol come up a lot because I feel like that's been a big buzzword lately, or or is that not related? When we talk about nervous system stuff, everyone's like, oh, it's raising your cortisol levels and like you need to get the cortisol down. That feels yeah.

Megan:

Another sort of misunderstood, some some definitely relevant, but not how we all think. I'm not um, you know, uh a functional medicine provider or a doctor. I don't read labs, I don't work with labs. And yeah, when we are in a sympathetic stress response, our body produces more of the stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline, but we actually need them. Like we sort of vilify these hormones like they're a bad thing, but we need our body to produce cortisol. It's what wakes us up in the morning. If we don't have any cortisol, we are not gonna wake up and get up and going. If we don't have our body's ability to produce cortisol and adrenaline, we won't be able to sense danger when we need to sense danger and get away from it. So cortisol production isn't bad. And yes, if you are in a constant state of dysregulation and you have an imbalance, either too much production or too little of any hormone in the body, cortisol included, like that's going to create some downstream effects, but it's not sort of this end-all be-all, like again, miracle fix that I think people are looking for.

Lauren:

I have a basic but also large question.

Megan:

No such thing as basic, too basic.

Lauren:

Because this is like could potentially be overwhelming for someone who's like, oh my god, I got a lot of shit to do. I got a lot of work to do. What's like one thing that you might recommend someone to start with? Like you do this.

Megan:

Yeah, I I don't ever want to overwhelm people to the point where they're like not interested in then in exploring any of this further. And I think that at the basis of what we're talking about here is just learning to be more present in your body more of the time and more curious about what it's telling you.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Megan:

And in order to do that, for most people, the easiest, most basic place to start and the place you actually need to start is just developing a better um relationship, sensing your body's natural cues and rhythms for your basic bodily needs, meaning, uh, do you eat when you're hungry or do you try to like power through the day? Do you override your fullness cues and overeat and emotionally? Do you listen to when you have to go to the bathroom or do you try to hold it to be more productive? Do you like go to bed when you're tired, or do you scroll for three more hours on social media? Like, can you listen to those basic bodily cues your body is sending you and practice meeting those first? And then from there, it's like maybe you then start to notice when your body's telling you that a person isn't right for you. Like this relationship doesn't feel right, something about this doesn't feel good, doesn't feel safe. Um, we start to get more clues and messages from our body when we're first just uh meeting the bodily basics. And and that helps us practice expanding our capacity to stay with more emotion when it shows up. Because if I feel safer being in my physical body, then when I feel sad or when I feel angry, I'm more attuned to that. I'm less scared and less likely to numb it or run from it. And that's a beautiful place to start.

Lauren:

That's really great. Yeah.

Frank:

We we throw the term interoception around over here. And or like in other terms, like using we always talk about using your body as a map to help you like sort through the things that you might not be addressing. It's actually really well, let me pose this as a question. Do you find it curious as to how many people have learned to try and fight those sensations and just ignore them and uh survive through them as opposed to work alongside them and work with them?

Megan:

Absolutely. I find it so fascinating that I am writing a book about it as we say. Oh yeah. I mean, we're just sort of conditioned to perceive our body as an inconvenience. Like we talked about earlier. We do not think that it's wise at all. We think that it's inconvenient. Like we want to look a certain way, and the fact that I'm hungry means that I'm not gonna look how I want to look. Or like I should, you know, be have more energy than I do, and I'm like so annoyed that my body doesn't have more energy. Like, we just like think everything about our physical bodies is an inconvenience because of the very like productivity forward capitalistic society that we live in, appearance-oriented society.

Frank:

Just speaking my language. I want to give you a hug right now.

Megan:

Perfect. Because I could go on and on and on. But I guess to answer your question, yes, I agree.

Frank:

Why does everybody want to be a Viking? Like they wanna they wanna wake up in the morning, drink a big cup of cortisol so they can wake up and get going.

Megan:

Do their cold plunge, do their breath work, do their 27-step morning routine.

Frank:

Oh my god. It's so like at some point, it's just like working against yourself and your body, your body's natural rhythms. And definitely we haven't no one's saying, Oh, yeah, part of my all those people that are doing that stuff, they're like uh treating their entire lives like drill sergeants. There's no step in there of like, and take a second to assess your emotions.

Megan:

Right, you know, exactly.

Frank:

Why did that guy with a purple shirt piss you off?

Megan:

Exactly. Like, let's dig deeper into that. What's going on with purple shirt guys? Yeah, it sounds like he's really bothering you.

Frank:

I love purple. Okay. I tell my daughter.

Megan:

Oh, so maybe you were jealous of his purple shirt.

Frank:

No, that's what it was. I need that. Take that shirt off and give it to me. Yeah. That's what it was. But yeah, like so. You're writing a book. Tell us about the book.

Megan:

Um, okay. This one I can't say much about at this stage, but yeah, I I really like everything we've said here, like really want to help people have a better understanding of the wisdom and cues that our bodies and emotions hold rather than constantly like battling against them. And um and I I just think that yeah, we as a society are a little too focused on looking for the quick fixes and like the overriding um rather than listening to our our natural rhythm.

Frank:

This is kind of a I feel this is such a delicate subject to ask about, but like uh because I don't want to shame anybody, but uh I feel like we're kind of too fast too fast to um prescribe pills and stuff for things, you know. But also uh no doubt, like if you need that, you need that, and that's fine. Like I don't want to shame, but I'm also recognizing like that, you know, whenever I hear somebody talk about, oh, I went to my doctor, I was feeling this way, and they gave me this, and now I don't, or I really don't want to, but it's still there a little bit, but it's enough for me to ignore. And that's the thing that I'm like, ah, dude. But that might have been something that that might have been like a trigger to help you like that you're listening your body, and you might live a more fulfilling life instead of taking the the pill. And I'm speaking from someone who was on Prozac for a long time, like I needed it to function, but function in a space that I shouldn't have been in.

Megan:

Yes, yeah, exactly. Like there are plenty of valid use cases for medications and they can be life-saving for so many people. And we currently live in a medical system that is does not take a holistic, whole person approach to healing. It takes a sort of band-aid approach to symptoms and never gets to like root cause medicine and and addressing like, yeah, maybe there's a deeper imbalance that we need to look at, or maybe you're trying to operate in an environment that's just not right for you. But I don't think we're ever gonna see that change here in America, at least. Other places have a different approach, but yeah.

Frank:

I that's true. I have heard of like my I have a Russian friend, and she was like, Oh yeah, I always like, I'm I went to the doctor, and they're like, Oh, you're all right. She was like, I said I'm depressed. And he's like, Well, what's going on in your life? He's like, No, she's said, I'm here for the pill. He's like, No, let's talk about what's going on.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

And and like, yeah, we're the only place that operates, like, what do you need? Okay, yeah, here you go. Get out of here. Next, you know, yeah, such a drag. But that also like is such a mirror of how we try to operate in Viking mode. Yeah, and it's not great. A little bit of Viking's okay, not a lot of it.

Megan:

Yeah, like we need to be able to access that energy when we need it. And like for some people, more of that energy is gonna be more authentic in their body and their physiology, and some people it's less. Also, the conversation about like men and women's nervous system having very different needs. Like, there's just nuance to it. We shouldn't be trying to prescribe one size fits all.

Frank:

Right.

Lauren:

I think that the the even just the thing you said about like the basic listening to your body's basic needs is so we just we really ignore, we treat our bodies like trash cans sometimes or like oh, I did um the Avon walk, and I remember talking to Emily, my sister in law, about our bodies, and she's like, we just keep referring to it as it. And I've thought about that. That was like 15 years ago, and I still think of how funny that is that when we talk about our bodies, we Say it.

Megan:

Yeah. But then if you try to get somebody to refer to their body as like she or him, they'll lose their minds. Oh, like absolutely. It doesn't work. No. Yeah.

Lauren:

You have to say it, but it is really funny. Like we treat it as like an object. Separate. Yeah. Like, yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna be thinking about my my basic how often I pay attention to my basic needs. Good. Because I do, I do like, you know, if you're like, I'm I just need to write one more email. I gotta pee, or like, I'm so hungry, but like, whatever, you know.

Megan:

Yeah, you just we override all the time. And just yeah, changing that even a little bit, you'll maybe become a little bit more attuned and feel more at home in your body.

Frank:

Such an important conversation.

Megan:

Good stuff. Megan.

Frank:

Uh do me a favor, give everybody your plugs, tell tell everybody where to find you.

Megan:

Yeah, absolutely. The the best places to be in the loop about all of my programs, retreats, offerings, books, et cetera, are my website and my Instagram, which are both my full name, MeganSharer.com and at MeganSharer on Instagram. I do also have a TikTok and a YouTube where I share lots of things, Substack where I write essays. I have a book that's out already called Choose Yourself. And um that's mostly about attachment wounds and relationship patterns. And yeah, I host programs, retreats, and all the things. So if you're curious, those are the places you can find out more. Amazing.

Frank:

I think we're gonna dig around there a little bit.

Megan:

Yeah, I think so.

Frank:

When you're not looking.

Megan:

Oh, please do. No, let me know what questions you have. I'd be happy to send you all the things. I have a podcast as well, so it's a great place to deep dive, binge all my content and what's your podcast called. We'll say it at the same time.

Frank:

And what's your podcast?

Lauren:

It's called well then. Well then. Yeah, well then. Thank you so much. That was like it's just so much amazing information. And I feel like the the another journey has begun. Oh, I see it in Frank's eyes. Yeah. Yeah. I see all the wheels turning. I love it.

Frank:

And that hurts a little bit. Yeah. Oh no. Oh no.

Lauren:

Yeah. Oh no. Stored emotions.

Frank:

Do I need to go get a tissue box and then figure this out now? I think I'm going to do it.

Megan:

Take it one sensation at a time. Yeah. Open up your hips.

Frank:

Open up those hips. Megan, thank you so much for spending time with us today.

Megan:

Thank you so much for having me. It was so fun.

Frank:

Thank you for listening. Visit ClareVoyaging.com for merchandise or to access free resources to help you on your spiritual journey. Subscribe to our Patreon for more content or join for free to chat with us. Clare Voyaging is a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501c3 charity. Make a tax deductible donation to support our mission to foster understanding, respect, and curiosity for diverse spiritual belief systems. Clare Voyaging is a production of Wayfeather Media.

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Frank A. Leon

Co-host
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Lauren Leon

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