Clairvoyaging

096: Astrology As A Healing Map // with Annie Bertrand

• Wayfeather • Season 1 • Episode 96

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What if your higher self wrote your birth chart as a map for healing and purpose? In this episode, we talked with ancestral astrologer and energy healer Annie Bertrand. She shares how her Saturn return sparked a spiritual awakening, how energy healing pulled ancestral baggage from her body, and why she reads the North Node first to uncover destiny and direction.

We unpack the difference between pop horoscopes and real chart work—rising signs, houses, Mercury for communication—and then follow the thread into family patterns. Annie shows how repeating signs across a lineage flag shared lessons, how synastry reveals past-life bonds, and how a child’s Moon and Venus can transform daily parenting. Expect tangible takeaways: a “return to sender” ritual for empaths, ways to spot karmic checkpoints during eclipses and retrogrades, and a clearer map for navigating free will within fate.

Annie also opens up about past-life memories that resurfaced as anxiety after her daughter’s birth, and the visualization tools she used to resolve them. We test these ideas against our own Aquarius and Capricorn-heavy household, comparing notes on creative flow, Virgo Moon tendencies, and what it takes to break cycles without accidentally reinforcing them. If you’ve ever wondered how astrology, energy work, and generational healing intersect, this conversation offers a grounded, actionable path forward.

To learn more or to work with Annie:

Visit: anniebertrand.com


Clairvoyaging is now a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501(c)(3) charity, so any donations are now tax deductible. If you’d like to support our projects that aim to foster understanding for diverse spiritual belief systems, visit www.clairvoyaging.com/support. 

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Lauren:

Seasons greetings, my little dewdrops. In today's episode, we talked to Annie Bertrand, an ancestral astrologer and energy healer. We talked about birth charts, generational trauma, and past lives, and started digging a little deeper into astrology and what it all means. I'm Lauren Leon.

Frank:

And I'm Too Hot! God damn. Say my name and know who I am. I'm too hot! Hot damn. Make a uh what's the What is it? Make a Dragon Warner retirement. I'm too hot! Hot damn. I'm a bad about that money. Break it down. Sounds good, sounds a hallelujah. It's up, Tab Funk, don't give it to me. That's enough.

Lauren:

We are a married couple. Good old Frankie Boy here, learning how to develop our own intuition. And this is episode 96 of Claire Voyaging. Okay.

Frank:

There was a break between every line where I said, wait, what's the next words?

Lauren:

Wait, I forgot everything.

Frank:

How's it go?

Lauren:

You want me to look up the lyrics? No, no, no. No, no, no. I got this. I got it.

Frank:

I got this.

Lauren:

Hi, everybody.

Frank:

Hey, what's going on?

Lauren:

Welcome to Claire Voyaging. We never know what you're gonna get. Just like a box of chocolates.

Frank:

And sometimes those chocolates may have expired.

Lauren:

Guys, we got a great show. Annie's a great guest. I'm gonna just say before we get to that, a couple of notes. We've gotten more five-star reviews. Yay! And every time you do it, it helps us show up in searches and makes us grow and all that fun stuff.

Frank:

And fairies come back to life.

Lauren:

And fairies multiply by the numbers.

Frank:

Um don't ask how that happens.

Lauren:

I don't know. It's magic. Also, just a reminder: come join the Claire Voyaging Patreon community, and it's only $4 per month. That's so cheap! It's true. You know, we like to post like behind the scenes stuff, extra little clips. We've got a new one, mostly just us talking about Star Wars. So you never know. Again, you never know what you're gonna get.

Frank:

I might call it an argument. I might call it an argument about it.

Lauren:

It's a hot debate.

Frank:

What happens when one one hot take runs into another hot take?

Lauren:

Sometimes we have these conversations like in our intro recording, and obviously it's never gonna, it's not gonna make it to air.

Frank:

It shouldn't.

Lauren:

We're not gonna we're not gonna include it on the podcast. Where's that conversation gonna go? Who's gonna side with who? Sometimes there's a hot debate that has to go on the internet, of course, because why not? So Patreon is where it lives.

Frank:

And who are you gonna choose? The darkness or the light.

Lauren:

Okay, I have one more thing to say, you guys. This isn't about Star Wars, I promise. We're about to change things up and buckle up. I hope you're ready.

Frank:

We are also buckling up, because I'm not sure if we are.

Lauren:

We don't know, but we're about to take an adventure. We are coming up on our 100th episode. Uh what?

Frank:

Wait, yeah. Hey, thank you so much. Oh my god. Wow.

Lauren:

Okay, okay. Sit down, everyone. Uh so we want this next season, what long season, or phase of our show, something like that, to move into something new. So, what we're gonna do is fewer guest episodes and more deep dives into specific topics and themes of self-healing and integration. And so we will have more to say on all of this, but just wanted to give you a heads heads up. Heads heads up. That's the heads up before you get the heads up. Times two. Heads, heads up. That's not a thing, but it's gonna be a thing, and I'm gonna force it to be a thing. Great. Let's go to the show. God, and now it's time to hit play for the show. Send it. Please send it. Talk to Annie.

Frank:

Oh my uh, I've never been this scared.

Lauren:

And now we are off like a rocket. Annie, thank you so much for joining us today. We're excited to talk to you and hear your story and talk about astrology. Because I feel like we haven't gotten too into it over here on the podcast. So we like to start with a little backstory. Can you give us yours and like how'd you get into all of this?

Annie:

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you both for having me. So, hello, everybody. So, my name is Annie. My story, all this journey, started during my Saturn return. So, if you've ever heard this before, basically around the ages of 29 to 30, Saturn will come and mess it right in up if you're not in alignment and like, you know, living according to what you think you should be doing. Saturn is like, ha ha, that's cute. And so that's what happened to me. My daughter was born, and she was my second. And after her birth, her birth, I had really severe postpartum depression. And it just opened my eyes to the whole world. It was very much of my spiritual awakening. I was like, oh my goodness, the world is corrupt, it's poison, the air, the food, everything. And it was just very much contributing to my postpartum depression. Um, and then I used to work in pharmaceutical marketing at the time, and that was completely like blown open. And I was like, oh my goodness, I don't believe this industry. I can't support this. So very much of a dark night of the soul. And I was looking for answers, and I've always loved astrology. And then by this time, so my daughter was born at the end of 2017. So I had about two years of just like a really rough time. I was starting to get better, and then COVID happened. And then I was like, oh my goodness, like the world. So I was looking for just insights. I was feeling very frazzled. I had two young kids. I was like, the world is on fire and I've brought kids into this world. Like, what, oh my God, you know? So that's how I turned to astrology because I was like, I need, I need some future insights here. And then so this reader that I met, and she basically told me she was like, Oh, you're coming up on a really big like time period work-wise. I was like, Yeah, I'm already kind of in it. She's like, Yeah, but you're gonna meet a mentor and it's gonna change everything and it's gonna put you on like a different path for your work. So I was like, okay. So that was kind of in my like peripheral. And then my friend sent me a Facebook group. It was this thing, this challenge, like star seed accelerator, whatever. And it was just like, oh my goodness, it's like everything, like so many answers, so much of like explained who I was. And the teacher, she was teaching energy healing. And so I had a session with her, and I'm not even joking you, in one session, I completely changed. Like I just liberated so much ancestral baggage. I changed from being like a pessimist, like my whole life to an optimist. Like I said to you guys, I'm a Sagittarius rising, like I'm optimistic by nature, but I was super pessimistic because of my whole baggage and my like upbringing and everything. I was hating motherhood because it's just been such a rough time. And I'm not even joking, like one session I went from hating motherhood to actually like enjoying it. So I was like, I need to learn this healing modality. Like, this is amazing. Um, so I did. So I did three years of training of energy healing. And in my last year, the most like advanced healer training, we were doing past life stuff, and I was in my past life records, and I realized that I had been an astrologer in a past life. Um so I was like, oh, this makes so much sense. Why I've always felt called to it. And so I was basically like, okay, well, let's like, you know, bring that back in. So I started doing astrology, like learning, but then I also had to download to just combine the two of taking astrology as a map for healing, because that's it, I understand of the karmic contracts and souls and all that. So I see astrology as a healing map, and then that's it. That's the map, and then I do ancestral healing and and all that. So yeah, that's kind of what brought me here the last five years, six years, I guess.

Lauren:

Oh my gosh. What a great backstory. That's so fascinating to see like how how you actually got into it.

Frank:

That is cool.

Lauren:

That's so cool.

Frank:

Does your does your ancestral healing um like modality have an a name?

Annie:

Yeah, so it's called the decodes modality. Um yeah, I don't the disruptor codes, that's how my teacher calls it. Um, but yeah, it's very similar to, I would say, I kind of work very similarly to like talk therapy. It's like get on and like talk with people. But then the energy healing, there's a lot of visualizations and like actually, you know, going back to the moment in time and kind of like rewriting it, pulling emotions out of our body, um, things like that. And I'm also I'm a medical medium, so my body mimics it shows me what's going on in other people's bodies. So I'll be like, oh, tell me about like your left shoulder pain. And then I'm like, ah, this is pain from you know, all the stress that you've been carrying in your life. So tell me about your work life. And it's kind of all goes that way. So yeah.

Frank:

I apologize in advance. We both are very tired today. If you tap into us, you're gonna fall asleep right this evening.

Annie:

So I really don't. I don't unless I'm like in sessions with people. I used to, that's very much like, I don't know if you've, I'm sure you've heard this in your conversations that people talk about being an empath. Um, so that's very much of my abilities, is very much being an empath, but I've thankfully learned how to shut it like on and off because that's it. I used to be a walking little sponge, and I'd be like, Oh, I'm so tired, or like I have a headache, I must have all these headaches. And then I would hear someone say, like, I have a headache, and I was like, damn it, it's your headache. So now I don't do that anymore. I really consciously do it. So I've kind of reclaimed that empathy. And it is a superpower when I can tap in and out, but yeah, I don't, I don't do it. Like, I'm not walking little sponge anymore. Thank God. Good for you, yeah.

Frank:

I've been I've been reading so much lately about people talking about how people um those who are naturally empathic are actually designed for energy healing and and designed for like the types of modalities that you're practicing, and that you know, unhealed or unaddressed, like it becomes an internalized and you get pain and and and chronic issues. But if you learn how to use it, you're like made for this shit.

Lauren:

Exactly. Exactly.

Annie:

That's exactly. I'm so glad that yeah, you read that. That's exactly it. And so many people who are like so anxious or that they're like, I'm an empath. I'm like, you're actually just psychic AF, and that's it. You're pulling in all this energy and you're feeling it, but you don't know what to do with it. And therefore your body is saying, Hey, this is anxiety. It's feeling like anxiety because it's just too much to hold. So yeah.

Lauren:

Right. Right. Yeah. What what do you it just sounded like a record?

Frank:

Wait, wait, wait, wait. Lords in the house.

Lauren:

Um do you is there uh a modality name for the energy healing? Like, is it similar to Reiki or is it something different?

Annie:

Um no, I wouldn't say it's similar to Reiki. So yeah, so it's the it's called the Disruptor Codes. Um, I really don't know what to give another. My teachers, so she started off, she was an osteopath first. Um, and so she very much is like very rooted in yeah, the body. Like I had to learn anatomy. I had this big anatomy book that I use um because it's very much merging. Yeah, it's really important so that it merge the physical body and all of like the way our organism like works together, the different systems with the energy. But I think the difference with Reiki, the way that I like to explain it is like with Reiki, people kind of send energy to you know the place where you have pain or a blockage or something, right? They're sending that Reiki energy. Whereas the work that I do, it's really more about pulling things out. Because the way that I see and how I've learned, like chronic pain, for example, is memories and emotions and things that kind of go and they get lodged in your fascia and they kind of hang out with like an organ. And if you ever heard this, like for example, anger hangs out in the liver, um, grief hangs out in the lungs. So the way that I work, that's it, whereas Reiki, we're really sending energy to into the body, whereas the work that I do is we're really pulling these things out because that's why they're stuck there and they're causing you pain.

Lauren:

This is such great timing because the episode before this was about like fascia and how your body holds on to stuff. So you're kind of like the uh the deeper, the the energetic dive into that.

Frank:

So when you're when you're doing your your healing modality, you you mentioned you're using visualizations and pulling emotions out. What are the types of like visual visualizations that you're you're working through?

Annie:

Mm-hmm. So I mean, yeah, it really depends on the situation. Um, I'll give you most recent one. So we I had a client um a couple weeks ago, and I can't remember the whole, I can't remember the whole like logistics of it, but basically some of what we were talking about had started from being in the mood. Oh yeah. So this client is the youngest child, and she knows it's like known in her family that they basically had her to save their marriage. Okay, they like she has like 12 years apart from her older sister, and they basically had this baby to like let's save our marriage. It's kind of like falling apart. So this client has this like insane pressure of being like the savior and the one to like responsible, fix everything, right? Keep everybody happy. Makes sense. So we were like, okay, looking at, you know, how did these things happen historically? But I was like, this actually started in the womb because that's literally why she was conceived was to save their marriage. So one of the visualizations that we did was basically to go back into the womb when she was in the womb and release some of these emotions, these projections that were like put onto her, right? This whole nine months. And then basically the visualization was kind of like rebirthing, like coming through this dark tunnel to the light to basically be reborn without all of these projections and this huge responsibility on you. And I mean, I know it sounds out there, but it's effective.

Lauren:

No, no, no, no, that makes so much sense.

Frank:

I mean, what a powerful like closure on a real deep discomfort that like started from from birth, you know. Giving yourself an opportunity to like bring yourself into the world the way that you want to present is like that's a huge deal.

Lauren:

I also wonder, do you know, because because we've been talking about human design in the last few episodes, do you know human design at all? Because I feel like that that sounds like a five line now that I've learned, which is like people project onto you and um kind of hope that you'll be their like like a savior almost. So I wonder if that's also in that person's human design.

Annie:

Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. I'll have to look up her chart. She's one of my ongoing clients, so I have her I have all of her details, but I'm a three-five, so I'm very familiar with the projection field. So are you? Yeah. So I mean, that was one of the sometimes that's what I like when I first fell into human design, that I actually I used it again as a map because a lot of my chart is very open. I only have two centers that are colored in, so everything else is open, which again just makes so much sense why I'm an empath and this little like sponge of like, who am I? Um so then I realized I'm like, well, what if our open centers are places where we're more susceptible to conditioning for other people, then again, that gives me a map to do the healing work that I do to decondition, right? So that's what I did, and I was able to um yeah, just play play with that and just like.

Frank:

Wait, that's really cool.

Annie:

Yeah.

Frank:

That's a really cool thought. Which actually brings me to a question that I had written down here. Yeah. Is when did you when did you actually start realizing when did you start realizing your mediumship and your your psychic abilities?

Annie:

Um so yeah, I would say, I mean, it was definitely yeah, but that like 2018, 2019, so after my daughter was born, because I was just in therapy for so long, and I was realizing how much yeah, the people were like influencing me. And then I think I learned about being an empath. Like someone mentioned it, and I know like read a book, and I can't remember what it was, but I was like, oh my god, this is so me. And so then I was like, okay, so I'm an empath, so this is why like this all makes sense, you know. But then it wasn't until I found my spiritual teacher, and then I was like, Oh, okay, this is actually like my abilities, so it all kind of like tied together. So it's a bit of like a breadcrumb, you know.

Lauren:

Yeah, yeah. Well, that makes sense.

Annie:

But I've been done it kind of all my life, if I think. Like I've always been that person that people are like, I just feel so much better after I like talk to you. I'm like, yeah, no shit. I've been taking like your freaking your pain this whole time, you know. I'm holding space for you, but I'm not only like just giving you advice, I'm like, let me take all of this. Like, Jesus. Right.

Lauren:

Oh my god, I really feel that so much.

Frank:

I and I'm sure now, like you have like war stories on what happens for other people who when they like hold space for other people and their emotions, but like don't take the time to process their own stuff.

Annie:

Like, I don't know.

Frank:

Can you can you speak towards that a little bit? Because it seems like it would be an important part of your work.

Annie:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, so that's a classic sign of that's it, anxiety, like I was saying before. People who are very anxious, oftentimes that's it very psychic, they're very much like on the pulse of things, picking up, you know, the unsaid nuances, and then that's it, holding all of that energy, taking other people's pains, keeping it in their bodies. That's like a really big sign. And even like depression sometimes can be a big sign. Like sometimes I have I have clients who are that they're aware of it, they feel good, and then they go home, they visit their family, and they're like, oh my God, I like I left there and I feel so depressed, you know. And that's another sign that it's like probably not yours when it's kind of like sudden and out of nowhere. Um, and then yeah, it just leads to a lot of like chronic pain because that's it. It's your body knows that these things are not supposed to be there. And then another thing that I see, a big one with a lot of healers and when it resonates, is really just holding on to extra weight, is because it's quite literally we're holding on to all this extra baggage that isn't ours. So it's yeah.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

Yeah, that's what's wrong with it. That's it.

Annie:

That's it. But a really like quick, quick, effective, like easy way. I assist like all my clients, um, and actually teaching my kids and like children clients that I have is just every night when you're going to bed to make it part of your like bedtime routine to just take a moment and say, like, I'm returning to sender, like like I'm returning everything that's not mine, and just taking that moment to just be like, I'm returning everything to sender with love and consciousness, and like this just isn't mine. Um, and that's it. My clients are like, oh wow, that makes such a difference in their anxiety and like insomnia and just things like that. And it's just, I mean, you could do it multiple times a day, but at least if you just get in the habits of like when you're brushing your teeth or whatever, like just habit stack it. If you're someone who's very sensitive to energy and very much like associate, like recognizes themselves as an empath, then yeah, at least once a day you've got to like just return everything to sender.

Lauren:

We do that similar thing where like we call it a car wash. If we've been in like a really chaotic environment, we get in the car, we go, I release anything that does not belong to me. And yeah, it like just it clears the space. Or yeah, or a bedtime sometimes where it's like, all right, there's some extra stuff going on keeping everybody a little crazy. So uh I wanted to ask about like astrology and how this all plays into like how you help people. And do their do you find that their birth charts like, oh yeah, no wonder you have This, this, and this. Like you're more prone to that because of that. We don't know a ton of astrology, so we're on the very basics over here. We know sun, sign, rising, and moon. And like for me, that's about it. So I'm just saying that as a preface.

Frank:

I will, yeah, a full natal chart really, really gets that blood pressure moving in the wrong direction.

Lauren:

I see that where I hear like fifth house or ninth house, and I'm like, what I am, I'm I'm gone. I'm not here. I don't know what anyone's saying anymore.

Annie:

Uh ways, I hear you guys. Um, so I mean, I think, so yeah, one of the things that I really like about the fact that I trained as an energy healer first. I think that really just gives me a different perspective. Because I always, for me, I see charts as a karmic story. And it's also, it's the language from your higher self. That's the way I like to explain it. It's like your higher self incarnated, they had a plan, right? They they came to do something. They knew that you would have amnesia when you incarnate, because that's just how Earth works. And so they put it into a chart, like into the map, right? So that you're not going in blind. So that's really how I like to explain it to people. And like their chart is your higher self's plan for your lifetime. And so with that in mind, we can really just go like so many directions. Like the it's it's like it's like a map for everything. Um, it's like I think the way that you basically high incarnate for this higher purpose, which is your north node path, it's like your destiny, and the rest of the planets, the like the placements, those are basically like the tools and the experiences that soul was like, well, if I if I experience this or I have this, it's going to help me on the path. So that's really the lens that I that I take. Um, and I kind of work with people in different, different capacities, I guess you could say. So the first is if that's it, they want to know kind of like their healing map. And they're like, oh, I feel like I have a purpose or whatever. And then I look at their their higher purpose, I'm like, okay, well, your soul incarnated for this. And then we're like, okay, well, what are like, you know, the blocks or the woundings? Like, what's the karmic story here so that you can clear it and get on get ahead of it because that's what's gonna help, right? And then in terms of ancestral astrology and family astrology, well, that's all patterns, and astrology is very much patterns and cycles. And so what I do is when I see, I look at a family chart. So it's like I look at you guys with your kids, and then I look and I see, I'm like, okay, well, we have repeating energy here. So for example, in my family, we have a lot of repeating Capricorn energy. Um, and so looking at our karmic stories, I know that emotional healing is a big one on both sides, both me and my spouse, both have like this emotional repression in our families. And so that's something that we see often in Capricorn. It's like the the family just doesn't have a lot of space for like emotional expression, right? And then you'll see a kick, a child will be born, like my daughter, who is just like so much water and fire and just like zero chill, who just like basically forces you to like face it and like you got no choice but to deal with the emotions because she's freaking expressive and explosive, you know. Um, so yeah, I guess that's kind of my take on on astrology. It's really just all patterns. Um, yeah.

Lauren:

I okay, that yeah. What do you do you find that there's a lot of there are a lot of repeating signs because we have Sagittarius, yeah, I'm Aquarius rising, he's uh Capricorn rising, and our daughter is a Capricorn sun, our son is an Aquarius sun. So we all have like, and then he has Aquarius um moon, our daughter has Aquarius moon, yeah, our son has Aquarius rising, like it's all there's a bunch of repeating. There's maybe like one random sign, like the Taurus, but otherwise, like I mean, just for the everything is repeating, and it's so interesting. Yeah.

Annie:

Yeah, totally. So that happens all the time, like in families. That tells us that basically that's it, it's those themes that repeat are really important for your family line. So I heard like a lot of Aquarius, and then it's like you all as a family story is probably breaking out of the mold, like breaking out of the status quo, right? And like accepting, you know, yourself like as you are, quirky and all, right? Um, and so that's like a big, a big story, and that you are all doing, you know, together. And then it's it's been the Capricorn, like I was saying, oftentimes that has to do with like emotional repression or just like working so much, putting like work before family, things like that. Um, so yeah, so when signs repeat, it tells us that it's like a big part of this the it just kind of depends on where the placements fall, if it's like, oh, this is what you're breaking for your family cycle and you're healing it for your lineage, and or that's it, it's part of like what you're meant to do kind of together.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

And because you mentioned that the the what did you say, the north node is related to like your individual destiny.

Lauren:

Yeah, I was gonna ask about that too.

Frank:

I don't know shit about that.

Lauren:

Yeah, how do you find your north node? That sounds very cool.

Annie:

That's actually the one that looks like um, it looks like a little horseshoe. Um, so yeah, it I mean it's yeah, it's literally a horseshoe. So that's the one that looks like a horseshoe. And so for me, that's where I always always start. I'm like, okay, this is your you know, your destiny. Um, and then the rest of it kind of like fits in. I mean, I can give you guys a bit of my story to like put it in context. So I'm an Aquarius North Node. So my north node, and it's in the second house. So my destiny is very much about um standing on my own two feet with our second house, it has to do with income and money. So standing on my own two feet, um helping like the collective evolve and really break out of the mold. So, I mean, I just tell you guys before right, I like I've moved abroad, um, I've been in the sheep my whole life. And really the rest of my chart like fills in that story just in so many different ways. Like I have um a Capricorn moon. And so for me, I don't really like dealing with my emotions. I was more of the like, put it into the box for later or never, actually. Um and that kind of served me for when I was the black sheep, you know, and I like I was I was bullied a lot and I just like you know, it that emotional detachment like helped me in a way. Um, you know, it just kind of fits. And it was also like a story with like my mom. My mom was not cold, like nurturing at all. I'm had lots of like mommy wounds, and again, that just fits that black sheep story, right? Of like not not fitting in, not feeling worthy and all of it. So that was like a big, yeah, it's like it's like the your chart when you look at it all together, it tells like a story. And like, yes, those were woundings, but it helped me on my path because that's it. If I had quote unquote fit in and felt like I belonged this whole time, I wouldn't have had that same drive to explore energy healing, right? To leave my career, to like find something more. So it's like, yeah, that's kind of how I how I see it. It always serves in one way, um, in the bigger karmic story.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Annie:

But I'll send you guys on the rabbit hole of your north note.

Lauren:

The rabbit hole is about to begin.

Frank:

I just pulled up Lauren's chart, but I don't know why I have yours and not mine.

Lauren:

Oh, you don't have yours?

Frank:

I I didn't see it in there. Oh, I'm always I'm always checking in on her. Making sure you understand my quirks. So then if you have something like your entire family has a lot of like like like we have Aquarius strung out through you nailed it, by the way. Like we are weirdos, we're doing weird things, and we're trying to feel okay about it.

Lauren:

And all four of us have Aquarius somewhere. Our son is uh Aquarius' son and Aquarius Rising, so he is a little weirdo.

Frank:

Yeah. And then two Capricorns here in the family, yeah. Being my my rising and and our daughter's uh son, we are the ones that get the most stressed out and strung out, and uh we'll do things ad nauseum until we get it right, and we like to chill sometimes, or we'd like to chill, but we don't. So when you're looking at like I'm I'm I'm looking, I'm I guess I'm doing some a certain amount of pattern recognition right now, according to what you're saying. If we look at all of our north nodes, is there a chance that there could be some overlap here since it seems so Yeah, there could be, there could be sometimes.

Annie:

Um the north like the nodes are like it's like a generational planet. So what I mean by that is because they move so slowly, and it's like you have a whole chunk of people that are have the same north nodes. So it's like I was born in like 1990, so it's like everybody in that year has like Aquarius North Node, for example. So sometimes it will happen that you have the same north node if the generations are, you know, the like if it max matches up, depending on like how old you are when you had a kid and stuff. But what I often see, which is fascinating, is that we often have the opposite. So um you'll have a kid who says, let's say it's like I'm an Aquarius North node, which means my south is in Leo, and then my daughter's she's a Leo North node, so she's like the opposite, um, which is also very, very karmic because it's basically like what I'm working towards, she's already mastered in a past life. What she's working towards, I've already mastered in a past life. So we have a very karmic relationship of like learning from each other. But as I'm sure you can imagine, given that I'm the mom and she's the daughter, and like there's just like a lot of stuff there. Totally always funny. I understand that she's a teacher as well, but you know, that's so funny.

Frank:

I will I will say out loud right now in public that if we had a Gemini in the house, which is the opposite of a Sagittarius, I think I'd lose my mind.

Lauren:

Uh yeah.

Frank:

I think I think we're good.

Lauren:

I think we'd be I think we'd have a hard time. Both of our dads are Geminis, and yeah, that's good enough. Wait, so okay. My north node, I don't you don't have to do all uh is there like a one kind of sentence north node in cancer that I could understand?

Annie:

Yeah, so your north node and cancer, so yeah, this is where it depends where that the house, like you were saying, like what are the houses? So side note of like when you're looking at a chart, it looks kind of like a pie. And every little pie piece, the lines are it looks like little pies. So the pies, those are the houses, and those are the different areas of your life where this story kind of plays out. Um, but yeah, so as um cancer north node, your soul really incarnated here for that's it, for family, for um, for nurturing, you know, yourself and for others, um really that ancestral healing, even maybe even like liberating, you know, your maternal line. Um but yeah, cancer is just the sign of yeah, just like nurturing and family um and home life, and really like helping the people around you feel safe and like nurtured and secured and all of that.

Lauren:

That's I feel like that tracks. Yeah, fifth house. I'm so okay. This is helping me dip not just a toe, but maybe a foot or two feet. I get overwhelmed easily. I'm sure our listeners have heard me say a few times, like, I want to know astrology, but I just want to know it.

Frank:

Oh, yeah.

Lauren:

Lauren Lauren's got a little not take the time to actually learn it.

Frank:

Yeah, I think it's why I've become so good at distilling information because I have exactly one and a half sentences to get that huge concept through before she goes, that's too much. Yeah. And I'm like, it's fine, that's fine. But yeah, it's very funny. So where's my where's my horseshoe? I found my chart.

Lauren:

Let's go to planet.

Frank:

Where's my horseshoe? We are basic.

Lauren:

You're north node in Taurus. Yeah, North Node in Taurus in the fifth house. Mine was in the fifth house, too.

Annie:

Oh, that's so cool. I love that. I love that synchronicity because it's in the fifth house. It's like your fifth house is house of like fun and creativity and children and like self-expression. So just love that that's both like the focus for you, but just like in a different way. You know, that's like a really nice um that makes sense. Compliments each other.

Lauren:

Yeah. We do creative projects together all the time until we met. We were in a band.

Annie:

And yeah, that's so cool. Amazing. Um a Taurus North Node, typically Taurus North Node tells us that your soul really wants to like move away from that like chaos and create stability for themselves. Um, really, that that's it, that like that foundation that is like very, yeah, just like stable and nurturing and comforting. And also you incarnate it to just like experience like the pleasures and like the joy of life because Taurus is related with Venus. And then it's all about that's it, enjoying. So it's like Taurus is really about like when they say like stop and smell the roses, like that's really what it came here. And then with the fifth house, I'm like, yeah, I feel like your your soul really came here to just like have fun. But the like childhood experience may have been like the opposite of that, where it's just like, yeah, very chaotic and just like a lot of like yeah, just like hardships to overcome. So your soul is like moving away from that to create that joy and that stability for yourself despite the chaos, you know.

Frank:

That's interesting.

Annie:

Oh, that's so cool.

Frank:

I don't think my house was that that chaotic, not like obviously in any obvious way, but yeah, that is your brain was chaotic and remains to this day.

Lauren:

Here, but uh it it is interesting, like you uh we've been we've established, I think, that you create the like foundation, the kind of foundational stability, like emotionally too. And then I'm kind of the like nurturer, let's see how we uh include everybody and make this all work or whatever.

Frank:

I will also say that like when I interact with people, if we I don't have a lot of tolerance for shallow conversations, but like I always want to get to the heart of what are you about, what do you want, that kind of thing. Like that's kind of my MO of of like you know, talking to someone from like a soul level and not talking about it's probably why I don't like sports that much. I wanna I wanna like sports, but I wanna I want to know what everyone's into. You know what I mean? I like sports. I'm like, that's so cool, I can't talk to you about it, but like, you know, I can't interview that guy.

Lauren:

I want to hear more about his hopes and dreams. And also, what does he think about space?

Annie:

I love it.

Lauren:

That is fun.

Annie:

I mean, that's also very Aquarius. Like, Aquarius doesn't really like we don't do superficial, like it's just like meh.

Frank:

Oh, really? Is that a thing?

Annie:

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Lauren:

Okay, that's very funny.

Frank:

So, like, I it's gotta be so we we've talked, I mean you you mentioned it too, but we as of now, in this current uh time in our lives, our f family dynamic is somewhat complementary. We have tough nights, it's fine, we got young kids, but like there's a lot of intermingling of um science and and what have you. And but I'm sure you run into all the time family dynamics that aren't so complimentary and like and our is the assumption that those challenges are put in front of them so that they have something to go grow past and like learn the lesson.

Annie:

Yeah, yeah, that's it. That's exactly it. You nailed it, especially oftentimes as I'll see it with you know children. It's like most people have it's like you have that one karmic child, that that's it. They're like, oh man, you know when people say, like, oh my like my first is so easy, and then my second, they're like, Oh my god, like yeah, that one's your karmic child, you know. It's like that's exactly it. It's like you nailed it. It's like you make soul agreements. So my belief system, and it's how you know I learned it through this energy healing and everything, is that we agree to a bunch of different soul contracts and challenges and growth, and we make these agreements with people before we incarnate. And it's like, I'm agreeing to be your mom, or I'll be your villain in your story, like all of that. And so that's like what happens, it's really not like that the person is deliberately like wanting to hurt you, but it's like that's the soul contract, and that's how it has to play out. So oftentimes I'd say, I'll see that when, like you were saying, when they someone has the exact opposite signs, um, associated with like their moon, for example, because their moon is their emotional world. And so they'll be like completely different and like completely opposites, you know. And when you don't have that astrology knowledge or even just that awareness, it's very challenging because you're not realizing that you just don't see things or process things the same way, you know. Um, so yeah, so it's very common to have that. Sometimes people will have past life things as well. Um, so I can also see that in charts. That's where we would have south node. Um, so the other shoes, so the I told you guys the horseshoe is the north, the upside down one is the south node. That one talks about your past life. And so that gives us so many insights as well. But sometimes, especially with siblings, sibling dynamics, I see this oftentimes. They're like, my kids are always at each other's throats, and which like I have two there. It's it's also an age thing. But sometimes, you know, sometimes I'm like, oh, they actually have past lives. And it's like they were like past life, like enemies, for example. It was like Mars in the South Node, you know. So sometimes these things will trickle over from those lives. But yeah, it's really those karmic scenarios, either they're meant to help us grow or they're just lingering from a past life, and we gotta like clean that up.

Lauren:

Yeah. Okay. So we could look at like our Maya and Frank's South Nodes and see how they either clash or come together. And then we could also do that with our kids and see like were they complementary.

Annie:

Yeah, exactly. So yeah, so that's actually what that's what I do in my signature family readings. I read everybody together, but that's it. It's called a sinistry chart, and they put them together. So that's it. When you put them together, you could see like, oh, okay, your South Node and your Mars are stuck together. They're both in whatever's fine. So that tells us that you have, you know, a past life together, or that's it, like with your other child. Oh, okay. Well, you've got, you know, the the South Node with like Mercury or whatever. And I'm like, oh, that probably tells me that you're a past life siblings. So yeah, when the planets are making aspects together, when we put the charts together to the South Node, that tells us about past life connections. Not all of them, because we have like we uh most of us have a lot, a lot of past lives, uh, but just I think the ones that are probably relevant to this incarnation, especially with our children and our spouses, right?

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

That's really cool.

Annie:

Yeah.

Frank:

And by the way, not all of us have a bunch of past lives because I've only had like two, because I and I'm just some spiritual dope. It's true. It's true. Yeah, every if you said that, you'd be right.

Lauren:

He was told that he's kind of he's kind of newer and that he's uh just a handful of past lives. But cool. I don't know. Yeah, that's totally we also were told that we were married several times in past lives.

Frank:

So right.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

Yeah, maybe maybe the person that said it to me missed a few.

Lauren:

One, two, skip a few, Frank and Lauren.

Frank:

Go for it.

Lauren:

I don't think they said three lives.

Annie:

But I mean, I feel like I feel like you guys all appreciate this story, like of just how past lives connections are just mind-blowing. So my daughter and I have a couple past lives together. And when she was born, after she was born, I just had so much anxiety all of a sudden about house fires. Like I've never experienced a house fire or anything in this lifetime, but it was incredible pain, like so scary, so stressful. I would wake up in the middle of the night, I would leave my house, I'd have to drive back home. Like, did I unplug the hair straightener? Like it was really debilitating. And then when I was doing past life work, yeah, like it was causing me a lot of anxiety, like out of nowhere. And all of a sudden I was terrified of house fires. And so then I was doing past life work and I found that's at this record of a past life with my daughter, where we were in a house fire and I had actually died trying to save her. So when she was born, basically, like our souls coming back together in this incarnation, it brought up all these memories for me, even though that's it I had never. In this life, experienced the house fire or anything, but it's really debilitating. Like, I'm serious. I was losing sleep, anxious, like I was saying, like, gotta go back home, gotta check things. Like it was bad. Um, and that's it. It was just this past life resonance, but her soul coming back to me, being reborn, brought up all those fears, obviously. Wild, eh?

Frank:

I'm telling you guys, and my whole crown is like so interesting.

Lauren:

That is wild.

Frank:

Wait, how do you like how do you uh how do you account for that? Like uh what do you what do you so would I would if I were you, I'd end up living in a tent, you know? I'm like, that's take care of that. That's that trauma solved.

Lauren:

Right? She does energy healing drink.

Annie:

Exactly. So that's it. So I had to basically go back to those memories, pull out all of the emotions because they're still in my body. So I went back to those memories, pull out all of those emotions, and then basically close and burn down those records so that my brain wouldn't see it as like historical evidence. Because that's how I explain it to my clients. It's like, you want to think of your brain and you know, your ego, and just like all of that subconscious stuff, it's just meant to like protect you. And it basically your brain creates a catalog of, and so what happens is like when you have a really marking moment, whether it's like traumatic or just very like yeah, marking, your brain kind of creates this catalog. And so it's like, okay, when this happens, this is how I react and whatever. So then that's what happens. That's what when people talk about our mindset and our subconscious and all, it's really just you have a certain situation in front of you that could be similar. Your brain is just on auto palette, going through your catalog. Oh, this one sounds very similar or it's close. Therefore, we operate like this. And that's where all that's it, that subconscious programming comes from. But this catalog in your brain, it starts from all these past lives as well. So that's the work that I really do with energy healing, is just deleting some of these entries in this catalog that just like don't serve you because it just didn't really go that way, or like it's just kind of gotten distorted along the way. And it's just like, no, I don't need to be operating from that that catalog entry anymore.

Frank:

Do you ever worry about deleting something that you didn't you shouldn't have? Can you control Z that one?

Annie:

Right. I'm I'm I don't know. I don't know that you can really delete anything that like you shouldn't have. No, I'm not sure.

Frank:

It's a locked file. They don't have read and they only have read and write permission. That's an encrypted memory. Okay.

Annie:

Yeah. Well, it's funny that you say that. That does happen sometimes with clients when it's like, yeah, they don't want to look at a deep trauma. Like that's literally like, I know that one's password protected. And I'm like, okay, well, come back to that one, you know.

Lauren:

Whoa.

Annie:

Yeah, yeah. 100%. That's it. Sometimes people they've suppressed it, they don't even realize, or they just don't want to go there. You know, it's like one of my clients, she sent me her husband. I worked with him um over like four sessions as this specific like program to like liberate his family line. And I so I was meeting with him for like four months and every regularly, and it was at the very final fourth session. He had this huge trauma come up, this finally, this like childhood memory he had never told his wife, none of it, la. And I was like, oh my goodness, like, yeah, it took you like four months to get there, but there's some people in their own time, you know. Yeah, he had very happy real far.

Lauren:

Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Frank:

Annie, what are you doing to protect yourself? Like in during these like big conversations, these big moments that people are having.

Annie:

Yeah. Well, so I just really have to kind of like check my energy like after. So it's like after I do sessions, I just have to that's it, make sure like I didn't keep anything, like return everything to sender, like we were saying. I always will like disconnect from people's energy. Um, and uh yeah, I mean, honestly, I think that's where my Capricorn moon kind of helps. Like I really can stay cool, calm, and collected. Like I don't want people that to have these really traumatic moments and they're crying, and I'm like, it's cool, like I got you. I feel grounded. I'm not like, oh my God, that's all horrible. It's just like my Capricorn moon really does serve me in that way. Um, yeah, it's really just I mean, and I don't do more than like two sessions every day because then I also I was gonna say, do you ever like say, oh, well, I'm done for the day after that one?

Frank:

Yeah, we're good.

Annie:

Yeah, no, when I first started, it was like I couldn't do more than like one session. And if I had more than two in a week, then I would be like, I'm exhausted, I'm cranky, like I'm not having it. Um, but over time it's just like gotten better, but now still I still do max two a day, and I only see clients three days a week. Like I'm not I'm not doing this like nine to five, back to back, four days a week. Like, no, no.

Lauren:

Right.

Frank:

Yeah, that's a really important note, I feel like it does, it can take a toll, even if you're doing everything right. It's still a lot, it's a lot to have people process with even just using you as a tool.

Lauren:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause that's like deep work. There's some Reiki practitioners where they're, you know, just kind of scanning scanning or sending energy the whole time.

Frank:

But like maybe I should be that kind of Reiki practitioner. No, shh, shh, it works better when you don't talk.

Lauren:

Yeah. I don't want any of this shit. But yeah, like the deeper work of like we gotta extract this and delete this, and like let's look at your chart. Like that's that's big deal. I don't think anyone's said that like your chart was created by your higher self. I think that's such an interesting that's so interesting to me to to think about. Like that's like a map for you.

Frank:

It's a star map.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

It's a star map that leads right to Luke Skywalker. I watch a lot of Star Wars.

Lauren:

Don't mind him.

Frank:

Please, please ignore that.

Lauren:

We we talk all the time on the the podcast about how you choose your your path. You choose like what you need to learn. And for some reason it didn't really occur to me that like you would also choose your astrological chart and like your human design, like all the things. How do those kind of interlock? Yeah.

Annie:

Yeah, totally.

Lauren:

Well, you you've shown me something today.

Annie:

Like if everything's already predetermined in astrology, then like where does like free will come in, you know? And I think that you absolutely still have free will. Um, that's where we can see where things like we were talking about with you know, retrogrades, like Mercury retrograde or eclipse season, and when those moments are really charged and just like, oh my God, my whole life blew up. Well, that's probably like you free willed yourself a little too far off the path, you know? And so like soul kind of has to like programs these checkpoints. That's what I call eclipses. Eclipses and retrogrades, they're kind of like checkpoints. So yeah, you have free will. But I always say to people, it's like your soul had a plan and like this is the destination. Your free will is are you gonna take path A, which is like in alignment and everything's gonna go smoothly because you're following your intuition, everything? Are you gonna like take path B and you're just gonna be like, no, F all this, and you're gonna like, you know, like muscle your way through it. Are you gonna take path C? You're gonna do a lot of detours, go around and around and loop, you know, you're just you're always going in the same direction, but that's it. The free will is like how easy it's gonna be to get there. And so that's why I laugh when people are like, Well, I don't really believe in astrology. I'm like, you cannot believe in astrology. I'm like, but the astrology is still gonna astrology, whether you believe in it or not. So you have the map, you know?

Lauren:

Yeah. Any any of the the skeptics, I always come to my brother, who's always like, astrology is ridiculous.

Frank:

Yeah, well, hold on. I don't think he has and I I've been meaning to talk to him about this. Josh, if you're listening, I wanted to I wanted to say, like, you know, because he has done, since we've been doing the the podcast and stuff, he's come a long way in in his his own personal belief systems. They've they've gotten quite more expansive than they used to be.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

But I still think he thinks astrology is that thing you open up the newspaper on Sundays and look at.

Lauren:

I think so.

Frank:

Like you read the sentence. I'm like, no, man, it's more than that.

Lauren:

But he also thinks like he just considers like your son sign, but he also thinks, oh, it's it's it's absurd to think that if you were supposed to be born the day before or like six hours before, and you weren't that like your chart's gonna be totally different. He like just doesn't, or your personality is totally different.

Frank:

It's a spectrum.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

Anyway.

Lauren:

Yeah.

Annie:

And I mean the horoscope astrology it's it's literally like the most, it's like the most like diluted pop astrology because when you look at actual predictive astrology and what's happening in your life right now, it's not even based on the sun sign. So that drives me nuts when I see like, yeah, just like pop astrologers and TikTok and stuff. And they're like, horoscopes for all the Aries sun. And I'm like, no, it has nothing to do with anything. It's actually based on your rising sign. So give you a tip. If ever you guys are reading horoscopes that are like general, you actually want to be reading them for your rising sign, not your sun sign.

Frank:

Oh that little. Yeah, I'm sure the sun sign still holds some influence, right?

Annie:

Yeah, absolutely. It's your sun, it's like it's your, it's basically like your it's like your highest expression kind of view, you know, and like your aura and what comes naturally to you, like your strengths, it's all that, you know. But sometimes people, that's it, depending on their life stories, sometimes people have to kind of like grow into their sun signs, again, with just the whole rest of the chart and the karmic story. Um, and that's it, that kind of contributes to they're like, Well, I'm not, I'm not a Scorpio, anyways, and they just don't feel that way, but it's like they're moving towards it, you know, or maybe they have six planets all together and something else. Like there's just so many nuances. But I personally think that the whole like watered down horoscope in the newspaper, like I think that was like a like a I think that was done on purpose to really just like disempower the masses from how psychoology can really be, you know?

Frank:

Yeah.

Annie:

Oh my gosh.

Lauren:

I've never heard to look up your rising sign as your yeah, but also like I've noticed that since we've been talking, you have only referenced your rising and your moon.

Frank:

So, like, does that wow someone someone here is taking notes?

Lauren:

I am paying attention. She's on top of you.

Frank:

You basically just got a liar lie detector test on you with with Lauren Pan.

Lauren:

No, what she's uh saying right now is tracking.

Frank:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Um and do you find that you like live into your own rising sign more than your son?

Annie:

I do, yeah. So it's that's actually been interesting. Um, I was actually reading like an old blog post that I had written. I was like, I should publish this one again. So I feel like different air times of your life can kind of like emphasize different parts of your chart. So I'm an Aries son, to give you context. Um, and so I'm an Aries son, and I think as a child I was very much Aries son, I was just like like loud, I was like very passionate, she had like a lot of like, you know, charisma and that like leadership and all. Um, but then I was really severely bullied in high school and I was like, no, no, I need to like bring my light like way the F down. Um so I was like, you know, so I like dim that. So me coming back to my like Aries-ness has been a lot of healing and like deconditioning. So I do tend to run mostly like my my Sagittarius rising, I feel a lot more like my rising sign than I do my Aries sun. But that's because of that's it, that that trauma that I had. So it really just like, yeah, it just I think it depends in different times of of your lives. You know, you can kind of like lean into one of the archetypes more than the other. But that's always the same when people tell me, like, oh, like I really don't feel like my sun sign at all, or like my kid is not so and so. And I'm like, there's probably somewhere there, but sometimes there's an explanation to the story of just like okay, you have your sun sign is one placement and you have a lot of you know the other play planets, but sometimes it is trauma, sometimes it is somewhere along the way that you learned, hey, that's actually not safe to be like that, so I'm gonna dim that down. Yeah.

Lauren:

Okay, that makes a lot of sense because sometimes I like see, you know, how like people make TikToks about like they're very stereotypical, like this is what a Sagittarius would do if X, Y, and Z. And I'm like, well, that's not I don't am I missing something? Like, I have the like adventurous, like, you know, I don't know, head in the clouds kind of thing. But then there's also the thing about like Sagittarius just say whatever they blurt things out and say whatever they're thinking, even if it hurts someone's feelings. I'm like, nah, I think maybe it's a trauma response that I've just like quieted certain parts of me.

Annie:

Possibly, yeah. And it's also possible maybe your Mercury is actually not in Sagittarius. Um, so sometimes that's it, it just depends. Like when you're born, sometimes people will have their Mercury in the same sign as their sun sign, and sometimes it's not. So then if it's not, then that's it. That Mercury is our communication and how we express ourselves. So that would also explain it.

Lauren:

Oh, okay. Okay. And then sometimes my that smile, then sometimes when Frank and I are like on uh in our like flow and being creative and talking about big ideas, we have to both, we just started realizing this. We have to tell my Virgo moon to shut the fuck up because I start getting into like, well, how's that gonna work? Because wait a second, and I get into like the details and the like micro problems.

Frank:

I literally don't even I don't address Lauren in that moment. I say, Virgo, Virgo, can you sit down? It's not your turn yet.

Lauren:

We're still dreaming here. We need to. Yeah, and I go like, okay, okay, right, right, right. I don't need to, I don't need to get into like the details on the what ifs. Um, but yeah, that I that's just a recent realization that like oh, that must be why I do that. And that part of me is great in when it's necessary, but when it's not, let me fly.

Frank:

Yeah, that's that's about the extent of like how we understand things so far. Yeah, same thing. Like I'm dreaming we're dreaming, I have big ideas. I tell Virgo sit down, and I I I keep Sagittariusing. Yeah. And then when it's time to actually do something, put you know, the pedal to the metal, I crack my knuckles, I go, it's time to be Capricorn. And we hit it.

Lauren:

I love it.

Annie:

Yeah, I love that. So good. I mean, that's such like a great realization to have, you know, about understanding, let's say, like someone else, instead of like, you know, making you a wrongness and being like, God Lauren, you want to shin on all of our ideas by just being like, okay, that's a miracle move. Well, give her space in a minute, you know, because that's the thing people don't realize.

Frank:

I gotta I gotta come clean. I gotta come clean. That's how it started.

Lauren:

It started with me saying, shut up years ago when we would be like, yeah, in in um in what what's it called? Like we'd be like a creative state. Yeah, like in brainstorming. Really using my brain for that one. We'd be brainstorming, and like suddenly uh something would like put me into like detail mode, and Frank would be like, What is happening? Why is it what where's your like dream big thing? Where'd it go? So now we've learned we've we've learned how to work with and stop certain things that are like that's that's that's annoying right now. I love that. This is all it's also helpful to like understand not only your partner but your kids and like recognize why they do certain things. Oh, it's so helpful. Yeah.

Frank:

Can I ask you a weird one?

Lauren:

Yeah.

Frank:

This is one of those too bigs. This is a too big of a question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway.

Lauren:

That's always right, it's always towards the end of a of a conversation. Frank goes, so what is space?

Frank:

No, we're we're on something like that right now. Okay, we are winding down, but but I'm ramping up. I'm doing the wrong thing. So so you spend a lot of time looking at the chart, and the chart, you know, itself is built in a cyclical fashion, right? And we have in a way where there are opposites, you know, and under the assumption also that we as uh reincarnated souls are taking our turns with with different personalities or aspects or whatever the map might dictate. I think my question is not formulated, but something along the lines of when i ick. When we we are in in culture, we are looking at when we see something as being the opposite, we almost see the the other, the opposite as being immoral. And there's something to the structure here that says that they're I I don't know where morality comes into this kind of thing. You know, I if I see someone, you know, f like politics, for example, you see the other side and you go, oh, like they're a bunch of they're A, crazy, B immoral, and the other side saying the same exact thing. I guess what is true immorality? That's a that is a messed up question to ask a human.

Annie:

I mean, I feel like I have a bit of an answer for you. I'm like, that all comes from conditioning. Like that literally just comes from the stories that you told as a kid of like what's right and what's wrong, and you know, the that's it, like how your family reacted when you did something right or wrong and all of that. Like to me, morality is completely like a human construct, and I think it really comes from the our conditioning and like our family and that what you're what we're exposed to.

Frank:

So you're saying everything should be a conversation?

Annie:

That's great.

Frank:

You mean have conversations, not wars? All right, fine, fine, fine, Annie.

Annie:

Consider the other person's point of view, I know. Yeah, such a three-five.

Lauren:

Such a three-five. I see you, Annie. All I do to my own detriment so often.

Annie:

Oh my god, I know. Tell me about it.

Lauren:

Oh my god.

Annie:

And then that's what I find like sometimes I stay with my Sagittarius. I'm like, I love being optimistic, but sometimes it's like to my detriment because I can really like I can find the silver linings in like any situation. Sometimes I'll like stay there a little too long because I'm silver lining so hard. Yeah.

Lauren:

Yeah. Oh my God, I feel you. Yeah. I call myself dangerously optimistic.

Frank:

Dangerously optimistic.

Lauren:

Because that I usually refer to that when I'm like, oh, I should have left the house 15 minutes ago. It'll be fine. Or like, I don't know, I didn't renew my my passport yet. And I have three, I don't know, something like that, where I'm really pushing it. And yeah, I'm dangerously optimistic. And the trial and error thing, though, is usually, you know, sometimes it hit it it uh pinches us, pinches us in the butt. What is the word?

Frank:

I believe it's kick. Does trial and error have a crush on us? It keeps pinching me in the butt. I'm gonna call human resources.

Lauren:

Oh no, I was thinking of nips. Nips me in the butt. No, no, that's not right either. That would be wrong. Nips it nip it in the bud. Oh my god, all of my expressions are off. I'm sorry that you've had to witness this entire thing.

Frank:

So for you, a lot of this started with your you you said it was your Saturn return. Um and then the events that happened to you after that you said resulted in something of a dark night of the soul. Um I guess I and this has come up in the last couple of episodes as well. I'm wondering, like, does it require does does our evolution require a dark night of the soul? I know you we we could say we we signed up for all this stuff, but is it just like is a hard is a hard night? Is a dark night of the soul a uh the result of us straying too far.

Annie:

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean I think so. It's especially when I look at it from like the Saturn return perspective, which like a lot of people like Saturn return gets a bad rep. But I actually had a client recently who was like, My Saturn return was great. And I was like, oh, tell me about that. And basically she was already doing, she's like had already kind of like deconditioned and said like eff it to what she should have done. So she was already on that path. So for her, it wasn't so tower moment, like everything is like not good, right? Because she already wasn't following what she should have been doing according to her parents and according to society. So I think it kind of depends. Like some people maybe have a different karmic story where that's it, they've already managed to like go of all their conditioning and their ancestral imprints and they follow their own hearts. But a big majority of people are just living for that's it, the shoulds and what you know they that's it, what they feel like they should be doing, what their parents said and all that. And that's when, yeah, you do kind of need a big cataclysmic event to really like wake you up from it, you know, because if not, you're just you're just going along with emotions, right? You're doing that and five thing, and it's like it's fine. And if you don't have that deep dark night cataclysmic moment, there isn't really a motivation to change, right? Like it's because that's what's hard. And that's what I see with my clients all the time, especially with their spouses, because I see so many women will go through their first like spiritual awakening and their big dark night of soul, and then they wake up to like the corruption of the world and everything, but then their spouse hasn't had that. And that's when it's really hard because their spouse hasn't had that, like, I'm down on the floor, come to Jesus moment, I want to change it all. Like their spouse is going through it by force, you know, and they haven't had that. This is just saying that's happened with me and my spouse. For him, it happened, I would say almost four years later. So those like four years were kind of like rough there in the middle because it was just like, oh my God, Annie, like, you know, it's just kind of felt like I was like, it was like me who was like bringing up a lot of just like this is corrupted and this and this has to change, and this has to change, right? Because he didn't have that same, like, yeah, angst with him and that pain to want to change, you know. So I think if people don't have those dark nights of the souls and those awakening, um, there isn't really that motivation to change anything. And it's hard to go, like you guys know it's hard to go against the status quo. Like it's hard for me to eat clean and will not feed my kids toxins when everything at the store is freaking toxic or it costs five times more. Like, you know what I mean? Like, no one does that because like I'm just gonna like go against the grain today, and that's gonna be a lot of fun. Like, no, you know what I mean? Like we you need that pain to drive you to go against the grain like that.

Frank:

So yeah, yeah, but but then you had one, and I've never heard this, and I'm so glad you brought it up. You did have a client who was like, Oh, mine, you know, we're out here, we're out here being Batman and brooding, like uh every everything is Gotham has to be different. And and she's out there having five seconds of summer. And it could but because she already did some of that shadow work.

Lauren:

Exactly. Yeah, I mean that's yeah.

Frank:

So so do it now, or it's gonna, or it's gonna pinch you in the butt.

Lauren:

It's going to pinch you in the butt.

Annie:

Oh, I never said, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think the next generation will have it very different, you know. Like, I'm sure, of course, my kids, you know, I'm like, I'm gonna mess them up in certain way, they'll have some healing to do, but just like not having to deconnect, like we talk about intuition and like my kids know that they're very psychic, like all these things, like they're not gonna have to like come back to it, you know. So, like, yeah, I can only imagine what their Saturn returns are going to be like. Like, I'm already telling my kids I'm like, you want to go to you wanna go to college? Cool. You don't want to go to college, cool, you know. Like, but for us, like me and my spouse, we're of the generation like, you must go to college, right? So it's like for my spouse, that was a big thing because he didn't, he flunked out of it, right? So that's a whole big worth thing, yada yah. But it's like my kids won't have any of that because I'm telling them, you want to go, cool. You don't want to go, cool, you know. So yeah, I think it'll be really interesting to see different generations who have to do less of that deconditioning shadow work.

Frank:

Yeah.

Lauren:

Less of breaking the we're all doing the cycle breaking. Trying to. Yeah, trying to.

Frank:

It's so hard because you don't know, like, I mean, unless you have a star map like you do, you don't have like the knowledge of where they're coming from. So like your your attempted cycle breaking might be cycle reaffirming to them. A little bit of help is very nice. For example, Lauren, Lauren's giving me a side eye.

Lauren:

Oh no, I'm just I'm listening to you. Because also we but I feel like we've been doing a lot of we, as parents, have been doing cycle breaking. Like, oh, I'm not gonna do it this way, I'm gonna do it this way.

Frank:

Yeah, but then you wonder if like we're if we're saying our kids, hey, follow your dreams and hopes, and you wanna you don't want to do that anymore, that's great. You don't have to do that anymore, you know? And I I wonder if like our daughter is the type of person that like craves uh discipline so much that now she goes and joins like the closest war she can because she wants that that arm army discipline, you know what I mean? Like it's so it's so hard to know.

Annie:

Yeah, but you're onto something because before I noticed my kids' astrologies, uh, give you an example. So, like I said, my mom was not nurturing at all. My childhood was like, you cry, you go in your room, like there was no space for emotions at all. So me thinking, okay, I'm gonna break this cycle, and I didn't have this emotional support. I want to talk to my kids about their feelings, like, how are you feeling? I'm here for you, I'm holding space for you. Do you need a hug? Because I never had that. But my kids are both Aries moons. Um, so they don't need that. They need to discharge first. They need to go into some pillows and throw some shit around, then they'll talk about their feelings. So that like, but you you're like, you nailed it, Frank, that I was like, oh, here I am thinking, I'm bringing the cycle. I'm giving them what I didn't have, but that's actually not what they need at all. And they're like, Mom, I don't want to talk about my feelings. I want to break shit. And I'm like, okay. Then we go throw your pillows and go like then we could talk about your feelings, you know? So yeah, and it's like it can kind of backfire. So that's why I love astrology, and that's why I'm like, you know, it's really important to people. I'm like, we gotta read our children's maps because you can, especially when we're parenting from I didn't have this, therefore I'm gonna do it this way to compensate for what I didn't have. Like this happens, so many people do this, you know. I'm like, I know you guys know what I'm talking about, and that's where it gets yeah, totally. So yeah, no, no, that was uh you're you're on it, Frank.

Lauren:

I mean, we do keep looking at like this is how they, you know, the these are their moons. We got a Virgo moon and an Aquarius moon, and here's how they like need to be addressed or whatever.

Frank:

We gotta learn houses.

Lauren:

We gotta get into that.

Frank:

We gotta do houses.

Lauren:

Well, okay. Annie, w for the simpletons like me and Frank, who are I'm scared to put both of my feet in. Uh what should I look at next besides what I told you I know?

Frank:

Or do you have like a recommendation for an app, aside from, of course, your services?

Lauren:

Yeah.

Annie:

Yeah. Um, so I mean, I think for kids, the next place I would always go is like understanding their Venus, because that tells you just about kind of like their love language and just like what they how they feel like really loved and nurtured, you know. Again, same thing. We have a mismatch. Like my kids are um one of them, both of them are gift giving is like their main like love language. Um, and so you know, here I am spending all this quality time together and be like, I'm gonna take you out, and they're like, okay, this is nice, great, but it doesn't really like fill their cup, and then I just feel more resentful. I'm like, I just gotta buy you something, I just gotta give you a gift, and then you're like, you're feeling so seen, you know? Um so I would send you on down the path of yeah, Venus, even for each other, like just it's so insightful because like oftentimes, again, we we want to give love and affection how we think or how we're programmed to do it, but that might not be how they receive it, right? So then I would say Venus is really insightful. And then then this book that I really love is called You Were Born for This from Chani Nicholas. It's just like just the way that she like breaks it all down, it definitely like makes it click, and it's like a bit of like a workbook that you work through like your own placements at the at the same time. So yeah, I would say those are and then of course I'm like, yeah, I'm like, I have an astrology course, and it always tells people like it really helps to understand it through the lens of your family. That's what clients tell me all the time, like, oh, it finally clicked with your course because I'm helping you see your own family members and your kids through it. And so you have real life examples, like it just clicks, you know, because finally you're like, okay, this Mercury is not so abstract because I see, yeah, my kid is really literal. Like that's another one. I speak in a lot of metaphors. My son has a Capricorn Mercury, he is very like literal. So I was like, I gotta drop the metaphors, man. Like, we are just not on the same page here.

Frank:

Oh, it's so helpful.

Lauren:

Oh, that's really helpful. Yeah. Okay. So then, well, that brings us to our next question, which is how can people find your courses or work with you?

Annie:

Yeah, absolutely. So my website is anniebertron.com and on the social media it's astrology with Annie across all platforms. And everything is linked up there. So I do my signature family readings, like I was telling you, where I look at all of you together, how you complement each other if there's past life stuff, all that good stuff. And then I also have an ancestral astrology course, which is self-led, but you learn all of the placements really through the lens of your family, and you actually heal. So every single module has visualizations or different like tarot spreads or whatever to like get to the root of the bottom of it. And like not just I'm learning this, we're actually like healing the lineage um at the same time. And then I offer one-on-one mentorship as well.

Lauren:

Oh, that's fantastic. So cool. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Thank you so much for so much insight today. I'm about to go on another little dive. I feel you've given me the safety to feel like, okay, I can learn more.

Frank:

You could do this. You lit Lauren up. She's fired up.

Lauren:

Yeah, I'm fired up. Yeah. Love it.

Annie:

Thank you so much. You're so welcome. It was such a blast. You guys are so fun. I love talking with you.

Frank:

Thank you for listening. Visit ClaireVoyaging.com for merchandise or to access free resources to help you on your spiritual journey. Subscribe to our Patreon for more content or join for free to chat with us. Clare Voyaging is a fiscally sponsored project of Fractured Atlas, a 501c3 charity. Make a tax deductible donation to support our mission to foster understanding, respect, and curiosity for diverse spiritual belief systems. Claire Voyaging is a production of Wayfeather Media.

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Frank A. Leon

Co-host
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Lauren Leon

Co-host

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