121. Bringing the Early Church to Life: "Cry For Jerusalem" with Author & Scientist Dr. Ward Sanford

In today’s episode, we explore the world of the early church and the historical events surrounding the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. My guest, Dr. Ward Sanford, is a hydrogeologist, researcher, and biblical historian whose passion for truth led him to write The Cry for Jerusalem series — deeply researched Christian historical novels rooted in eyewitness accounts and the writings of Josephus.

Together, we talk about:

• How history supports and illuminates Scripture
• Why understanding the culture of first-century Judea matters for our faith
• The strength and courage of women in the early church
• How faith and intellect work together, rather than in opposition
• And how our questions can actually draw us closer to God

This conversation is thoughtful, grounding, and deeply encouraging — especially if you’ve ever wrestled with doubt or wanted to understand your faith more deeply.

Resources Mentioned:

- The Cry for Jerusalem Series

Available in Paperback, Kindle, and Audible

Amazon Author Page: https://www.amazon.com/author/wardsanford

- To learn more about Dr. Sanford's work, read his blog, explore historical research, and stay updated on future projects, visit:

 https://cryforjerusalem.com/

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Transcript

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Welcome back to Curious for Christ. Welcome if you're new. I'm so glad you're here today. We have a very special guest. Dr. Ward Sanford, and this conversation is one that I believe will both deepen your understanding of scripture and strengthen your confidence in the historical reality of Jesus. Dr. Ward Sanford is a hydrogeologist researcher and biblical historian whose passion for truth led him from the world of scientific research into the history of. First Century Judea. His work draws deeply from the writings of the ancient Jewish historian Josephus, especially the Jewish War, to bring to life the world surrounding Jesus, the early church and the fall of Jerusalem in 70 80. One of the most pivotal moments in both Jewish and Christian history. Ward is the author of The Cry for Jerusalem series for historical Christian novels, grounded in eyewitness accounts, archeological evidence, and careful historical accuracy Through vivid storytelling, he highlights. Faith, fear, hope, politics, and prophecy were all colliding in the early church. His books give voice to unforgettable men and women just like you and I, navigating courage, persecution, survival, and belief in a world not so different from our. And there is even mention of the possible future Netflix adaptation, which is so exciting. Definitely something to pray about. So let's step back into history and step closer to the foundation of our faith. Let's dive in. Welcome to Curious for Christ. Do you ever find yourself lying, awake at night wondering about God's plan for your life? Maybe you wake up with big dreams, but feel unsure where to start or what your next step should be. If you're curious about exploring your faith and finding purpose, then you've come to the right place. Hi, I'm Alexandra. I too felt lost and sure of the direction my life was taking. I yearned to understand my purpose and have someone guide me, but I kept telling myself I was too busy. The timing wasn't right, and my lack of clarity prevented me from being consistent until I found Christ. He brought peace into my life and revealed the way to find purpose by anchoring myself. In him. In this podcast, we'll journey together exploring the Bible to gain a deeper understanding of him and cultivate your own personal relationship with Christ. So open up your Bible, put in those earbuds and listen up because God is speaking to you. He's making everything new and you don't wanna miss it. Let's get started. Good morning, Dr. Ward Sanford. I'm so happy and honored to have you on the podcast today. I'm excited about our conversation. Yeah, thank you very much for having me. I enjoy discussing these things. Very good. Yes. And I would love to talk about your latest book, cry for Jerusalem. But before we do, I always love to start with having my special guest, introduce themselves about their faith journey and what led you to. Your journey with God and then what led you to write your latest book which is a historical novel that brings to life the events of the first church and early Christians. Wow. I was brought up in a Methodist church and so I remember attending Sunday School from age five or something, i've had a long history of being a Christian, a believer made the decision early teen years but I also was very wired toward scientific investigations and research. So I pursued a degree in science. Majored in geology and hydrogeology, which is the study of groundwater, which is a more sort of applied science and spent 39 plus years in the US geological survey doing that type of research on groundwater and helping helping towns and states help manage their water supplies. But given that bent in me to do research that also led me into researching biblical subjects. For example, I visited Jerusalem in the year 2000 and was very interested in move, just being there and started looking into the the. Surroundings of Jerusalem, the temple mount and the temple, and started reading things about the history and have always been interested in the history of the church and apologetics. Yeah, I got exploring the Temple Mount and what it might've looked like and there's different ideas. Some of them more popular than others. But when I started doing that, I would read that there was a historian that many people have heard of. His name is Josephus. Flavius Josephus. He was originally a Jew. He was a Jew during during the first century. And not only did he write all about the destruction of Jerusalem, but he was, an intimate player in the whole thing. He was involved very much so in his book, the War of the Jews. He wrote all kinds of details about the war and, but also in, in his books he wrote about the Temple Mount and how it was configured. And so I got I in reading what people thought it looked like. I decided they, they would quote Josephus and to either support their view and if what he said didn't support their view, they would just dismiss him as being well, he was wrong on that point. So I decided to try to read Josephus myself, and if you've ever tried to do that. You would pick up his book and realize, wow, this is a very dense history book. Very hard to read. But I found a modern English translation by Bob Beasley on his book on the Jewish Wars, which covered the period from about Herod. A little before his time up through the destruction of Jerusalem. So I was able to read that. It was easier to follow and I was so amazed at all the details and of the battles and everything that happened and the drama and of the individuals. I was amazed that nobody had had tried to follow up and write and knew about these kind of things. I'd never heard of any of this. So I thought I, after having read historic some historical novels myself and really enjoyed them as a way to learn history, I thought this would be a great way to put all of the details and people in these stories into something that was much more readable. So I not only wrote one book I've written an entire series of four books called Cry for Jerusalem. That's fantastic. And that. That encapsulated everything in Josephus writings about the time periods. Wow, that's incredible. Your journey. So you went to Jerusalem or you just dove into the text? Both. I love that. And could you share with us what would be the most powerful thing? Just up, from. That you've discovered while writing that those four books that has personally deepened your own faith so well and your trust in them. Yeah. I revisited Jerusalem in 2019 and got to spend a lot more time going around and both times, just being there for me made it seem. It just makes it seem very real. You're right there, there are buildings and walls that were there at the time, and seeing places that were described in the Bible you can see are right there. It's very meaning and moving. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that and then sometimes we can be used to the text and they feel there's a gap. Even though the Bible is, the word is living and active, it's accurate today, but sometimes there can be a gap depending on the translation that we read or just by, because we've read it so much, we don't really connect as much. And so having. Someone like you who decided to write a fiction, a novel, but to reenact all these events to make it real and more personable, I can see how that can help connect in a different, at a different level with God. Yeah. And also, as a scientist, I'm very aware of what evidence is and what really doesn't qualify as evidence, but is basically personal. Bias. And I see the critics of the New Testament trying to say that these things nobody really knows what happened. And they were made up or really twisted centuries later. And, to me, if you actually read the New Testament stories and accounts I had, I can remember I have a colleague that used to say to me if we told them, a really crazy story or something that happened to us. He'd be laughing and he said, you can't make this stuff up, right? And if you read the New Testament, you realize these, you can't make up these kind of stories. These, it's just too much detail. A lot of the details actually tie into what we see on the ground in Jerusalem. And so one of the reasons really, I wanted to write this. This novel series was to help push back against the idea that these things, maybe never really happened. Some people will try to say that Jesus didn't even exist. Based on scientific evidence, the evidence we have, the historical evidence that just doesn't hold water at all. There's just all kinds of evidence there. And to be able to read and experience what people. Went through their fears, their hopes, their it just brings it all to life. So it makes it more real for people. Yes. Thank you for sharing that. Yes. Science does not contradict, it actually confirms sometimes things and details that were already present in the Bible. Sometimes science uses the Bible as a reference as well because it's so accurate to where certain artifacts may be found or certain, right? And all of Josephus writings just add all of the detail that we don't necessarily wasn't necessarily record in the Bible. And sometimes you'll hear people talk about. Different aspects of Jerusalem. They'll say we know this, or We knew this about the Pharisees and the Sadducees. And how did they know that? But Josephus wrote so much history and details and geography of the whole area that it, it really adds a lot of historical support to the Bible. Exactly. Very good, thank you. So I know that you're more on the scientific side. I wanted to go back to the faith aspect. A lot of our listeners wrestle with anxiety and doubt. So how can, understanding the historical reality of Jesus and the cultural world of first century Judea, where the early church fought to survive, help us grow in confidence, but the Bible is true and that its promises can be trusted. That's yeah, that's an interesting question. I've, probably wrestled with some of those early on in, in my walk when I started getting into science. But there are, I know there's a number of really good apologetic books out there. I remember reading a small, a short one by Josh McDowell called More Than a Carpenter and some of his reasonings really helped me solidify my, my faith and Remove. Some of the nagging sort of questions that would be in my mind, but also having done all this research and trying to research things about the time period, I've written a whole number of blogs on my website, which is cryer jerusalem.com, that address a lot of geographical and historical questions that come up and for example, two, two of the things that came up. And all of this work were some of the things that critics will be most critical of when they start reading the New Testament. And I discovered there are some answers that have been known for quite some time that people haven't realized. So what I'm thinking of is as soon as you open the book of Matthew, you'll and. You'll come across two of these, and that's what our critics will say. I just opened the New Testament and started reading Matthew. And immediately there were two things that were basically wrong, they would say, so we see that Jesus was born when Herod was still alive. And yet it also says that the census that. Joseph and Mary were under, was under the governor Pius of Syria, the governor of Syria. So one interesting historical point was that I would ask myself why did they care? Whether it was Syria, why did they care? Who was go, why did he mention who was the governor of some other country? But as soon as you start learning about the first century in Roman rule, you realize that Judea was not really its own province. It was part of the province of Syria. So when he mentions that who the governor was, that was really the governor over what included Judea. And so I discovered a historian in the 19th century. His name was Thomas Lewin, and he was a very well-educated lawyer in London. He, but he. Studied in Oxford, Greek and Hebrew. So he was not only fluent in New Testament Greek, but he said he studied the works of Josephus for 25 years. But he also wrote he wrote a lot of then of Christian historical apologetic writings, right? And so one of the things he wrote and discussed was what was going on at the time of Herod and who Herod was based on Josephus writings. And so people may not be aware that Herod was a king, but he was an ally of Rome. So he wasn't considered under the Roman rule, the Jews didn't have to pay taxes to Rome. He could raise his own taxes. So that's what he did. And when, but when he raised his, his own taxes, he put that all into all of his building funds, building the temple, building palaces and towers around Jerusalem. So that actually helped the economy. So he was he was an ally to Rome. He wasn't un necessarily under their thumb, but in about the year seven. He attacked one of his neighbors without room's permission, and this really upset the emperor. He wrote him a letter saying basically, I'm revoking your ally status. We're gonna be taking over. And so one of the first things they did was they, I instituted a census and I'm thinking why do people institute a census? Back then, there was only one reason. That's because they wanted to tax people. So they had everybody come and register for attacks when Herod was still alive. That's when it started. So Mo, Joseph and Mary are under this registration, but Herod then died and his brothers came up. So they put a pause on actually instituting the tax and instituting the census until several years later when actually Quirinius was the governor of Syria. That's when that census was first instituted and the taxes began. So that's the, that's what looks like There's a, something funny going on there, but it's, it actually ties in with the historical account. And I'm I'll just briefly mention the second item it people are quite aware of is that there are two different genealogies in the New Testament. One is in Matthew, one is in Luke. And if you start following them back, you'll quickly realize that Joseph, that Jesus's father Joseph, has given up one father in Matthew and a different father in Luke and a completely different line back to King David. So a critical, just look at this and said they didn't even have, couldn't even get this right, the genealogies. But if you read the historian Eusebius who lived in about the year 300, he wrote a lot of. History of the early church, and he dedicates an entire page to this question and gives it a completely logical answer that I've never heard before. And that is, so Joseph is given one father in Matthew and a different father in Luke. But what happens SBI writes and he's basing this on a letter that was written even before his time that the church still had. Was that the father in Matthew died before he had children. His wife married his half brother. And so this is what happens in, in the Jewish times. If one man dies the brother will, a brother will marry the wife to legally continue. His line and his legal line. So it turns out that the father in Matthew was the legal father, and the father in Luke was the natural birth father. So this is why we have two genealogies. It was a completely believable explanation that makes sense with the Jews at the time sure. And so doing that research definitely helps you to go beyond your doubts and Right, it answers some of these questions in a completely reasonable way. Yes. Very good. Thank you for sharing that. So a lot of women listen to this podcast and so I wanted to talk a little bit about the women that your books highlight. Strong female characters in a world dominated by Roman power, what can we learn from their courage and faith that can help our listeners who are on a journey of healing and recovering from their past? Can you highlight a few characters and a few stories from your books? Yes. Let me give you some background. Most of the characters in the series are taken right outta Joseph's writing, so there we really have five main characters we're following throughout in detail and their lives and what's happening to them. And so the character, the characters in the books are really not written from any particular cultural perspective. So this isn't like the Jews or the good guys and the Romans or the bad guys. It's not. Really either written from following Christians in what they're doing because I wanted the books to be picked up and read by non-Christians as well to help support the whole underpinning of the hi history at the time. So one of the main characters is Josephus himself because he writes so much about what happened to him. He goes by the name Joseph and, so like the main characters, like there's Nero in Rome, but the antagonist of the story is the that Josephus writes about is the governor, the new governor of Judea guesses Flores was his name and you can look him up on the web. He's actually a known individual who was indeed governor at the time. And, so this is what Josephus tells us. He was on his a journey he had to go to Rome. And he was on a ship that got in a storm and they went overboard with some other people. And one of them was a Roman woman who they managed to save and then discover once they get to Rome that she was the best friend of Nero's wife. And this is. This is a true story. This is a real person. See, but she was engaged to be married to the Judean governor. So she's in a person. She just got back from a tour around the Holy Land. She was very interested in their culture. She and Nero's wife were sympathetic to the Jews. But she marries, she's married off to this Roman governor, and so they move, end up moving to Judea. So now she is also there in Judea, but she's become friends with not only Joseph, but with one of the Roman soldiers that was in the water with him. His name is Nick Andor, who is a character that Yosef Jaus actually mentioned, was a Roman soldier friend of his, and one of her. Her permanent servants was a aerium named a younger man named Saeed. But then so those are based on real characters, but we decided we wanted to give Josephus a younger sister. Now, he never mentions that he had sisters, in, in historical novels and fictions, you. Can embellish a little bit, fill in to help the drama and things move forward. So he has a younger sister named Miriam, who's living, who's still living at home with his family. The setting is basically this upper class family in Jerusalem that Joseph, and he has an older brother, Matthew, and this younger sister Miriam. And so you spend time in their house and what things are like. But Miriam, j Yosef is off to Rome. She gets attacked in a tunnel by Roman soldiers, but rescued at the same time by a blind pottery maker who is also trained in martial arts. She manages to keep this a secret from her family, but in her feelings that she wanted revenge on. Roman soldiers that did this to her. He ends up training her to become one of the sari. The Sari a lot has quite written about them. In the first century, they were basically Jewish assassins that went around trying to assassinate Roman collaborators. So Miriam is living at home, but she has a secret and the dark, a dark secret. She's going out, working with the sari to help. Try to kill Romans and Roman collaborators. Quite a bit of the story is following her. Yeah. So she's one of the women characters. Yeah. Like you say, a lot of women relate to our no novel series because of our women characters. She's one of them. The other one then is this this Roman woman, Cleo who also. Has a crush on, on Joseph at the same time she's married because of what everything that transpired out in the ocean. But she doesn't understand why her husband is so against the Jews and in fact he's there basically trying to raid the temple of its gold. So she ends up. Spying on what he's doing and ends up wanting to help the Jews. Instead, he ends up physically abusing her to the point where he is probably about to kill her. But her servant Saeed helps her, gets rescued, and then she ends up spending hiding out in Jerusalem with Yo's family because her husband, the governor, has put out a. Basically an announcement that she's wanted and she's being hunted, right? So she's trying to hide out in Jerusalem the whole time and and her husband, if she ever catches her would try to kill her. So she's one of the other characters that we follow throughout the series. Very nice. Thank you. I hope you didn't spoil the no, there. No, I didn't give. Believe me. There's a lot there I did not give away. I just gave the main then. That seems the main plot lines of two two of the characters. Sure. And so beyond the, the intricate stories and that, that are very believable and definitely, backed by a lot of research, could you perhaps high pinpoint some challenges that. These women were facing that could help. Not Yes. Highlight the how these womens in the identity that they had in a particular culture, how did, how does that reflect with today? How can women take that message that you know, or the experience that they went through and perhaps apply it? Or is it just. To help us dive into this world in a particular time and place. You can understand that both of these women were in different cultures, right? One, one was Roman in a Roman culture where women didn't have a say to make any real decisions, and were basically under the thumb of their husbands. And it's the same. The same thing was there in the Jewish culture. And yet I think these women believed in themselves. They believed they could make a difference. They believed they could make a contribution. And so in spite of the situations they were in, they managed to find a way to make a real difference in the lives of them and the people around them. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. And so cry for Jerusalem. Could you give us an overview of why why the title what final message would you like to perhaps as we close here, some final words of encouragement that you book provides that you'd like to give our our listeners? Yeah, the title I was trying to come up with a title for the series, and I knew this was also based on based on the destruction of Jerusalem, which is actually a very somber holiday for the Jews. Tisha Bav is the, is the day that usually falls in early August that they commemorate and memorialize the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem. And as Josephus tells us, nearly a million people died mostly of starvation in the city as the story lays out for us. So I didn't wanna be perceived as somebody just, really trying to, make a buck off of something so somber. And so I wanted the title to also reflect that feeling. And so this, this idea of cry for Jerusalem and that Jesus himself cried over Jerusalem, seemed like an appropriate title. And then actually in the verse books, when the rebels. Start to realize what's happening. They use a, they use the word cry in a different sense. Send out a cry to help protect Jerusalem. So that was a different God, like a cry out for Jerusalem. Very good. Thank you. So where could our listeners purchase your book and find your work? So they're all on Amazon. If you just type in Cry for Jerusalem, Amazon, it'll take you right to the series. The series is available in paperback, but also in Kindle and also. I hired a British voice actor who narrates everything on Audible. So they're also all available to listen to on Audible. Yes. Very nice. And then you have your website as well. And we have a website that, like I say has lots of blogs and history and some of the papers, like there's some papers by Thomas Lewin that really help understand how the temple was laid out and things like that. Yeah. Very good. So I'll put all these in the show notes so everyone can find you easily. Thank you so much for your time. War. Do you have any books upcoming or anything in the, that you can share? Yeah we're I'm also trying to write a nonfiction book based on everything. I realized how the temple Herod's temple Mount was laid out based on Josephus writings. This person I talked about, Thomas Lewin, who was a scholar in the Josepha Scholar in the 18th century, basically picked out all of the quotes Josephus had about the Temple Mount area and was really able to pinpoint, pretty much where the temple was located. So I'm trying to write all of that up. The other thing we're trying to do is we're trying to make this into a TV series, which would be very exciting. I have a producer that's helping me in Hollywood. We have a couple of directors in Israel that are on board, but we just have to get funding now how much is the best we're at with those? That's exciting. Would it be called Cry for Jerusalem I don't know if they might wanna change the title, but it might be called that. Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time today. Thank you very much. Yeah, it was great talking. I wish you the best and I will be in touch with you for upcoming projects. Thank you. I had such a great time with Dr. Ward today. Here are five key takeaways from this episode that I gathered. Number one, history strengthens faith, not weakens it. Ward reminds us that when we look closely at the historical evidence, especially Joseph's archeology and first century records, the life of Jesus in the early church are not distant legends, but well attested realities. Number two, doubt is often answered through understanding. Many bible contradictions dissolve when we look at the cultural, political, and linguistic context of the time. For example, the census under Herod and Korean news. Makes sense once we understand how Rome transitioned authority in Judea and the two genealogies of Jesus in Matthew and in Luke are not mistakes. They reflect legal lineage versus biological lineage, which was common Jewish practice. Number three, the women in the early church were courageous, resilient, and deeply significant in wards novels. Characters like Miriam or Cleo reflect the quiet strength of real women in the first century. The navigated trauma and justice identity and courage in cultures where their voices were often suppressed and their stories remind us that. Even in difficult circumstances, we too can choose courage. We can choose love, we can do God's will. We are not defined by what the world says about us. We are defined by God. Number four, the fall of Jerusalem in 70 a D fulfilled Jesus's prophecy. This wasn't just recorded in scripture, it's confirmed by historians outside the Bible. It's a powerful reminder that God keeps his word, even when everything around us feels so uncertain what he says he truly does. And that's faith building. Number five, faith and intellect are not opposites. The more we learn about the culture, archeology, or at eyewitness accounts of the early church, the more scripture proves reliable. You don't have to shut your mind off to believe your questions can actually draw you deeper into faith. So this is it for today. I hope this conversation encourages you and strengthens your faith. Truly one of the biggest themes in today's episode to me is that faith and intellect are not enemies. They actually strengthen one another. So many of us wrestle with doubt and anxiety and fear of what if I'm wrong? And that's exactly where the enemy wants to trap us. Christianity is not blind belief. It is faith. It is also faith rooted in evidence. So if you are someone who thinks analytically or loves research and learning, uh, or even feels guilty to question or have doubts, well, Dr. Sanford's journey is a great example. That studying history and scripture more deeply are faith building. It is about using your mind to love God, like the very first command of God. Love him with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength. So here's the encouragement that I want to leave you with. You do not have to turn off your mind to follow Jesus. Hide your questions. God knows them already. And he actually invites you to lean in. Instead, your question can actually be an invitation and God can handle every one of them. So you are allowed to learn, to explore to think deeply, and as you do, you will find that your faith is not fragile. It is built on something real, something historical, something true. The Bible is the word of truth and something deeply personal. You are not believing into the dark. You are believing into the truth. Thank you so much for listening today. And just a reminder, new episodes now come out every two weeks, so we'll meet back here soon in two weeks. If this episode encouraged you, the best way to support the show is to leave a review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. It helps others find these conversations and it truly means so much to me. Until next time, stay curious, stay rooted, and stay close to Christ. Bye for now. Hi, I hope you enjoy today's episode. If so, would you like to take 30 seconds and share it with a friend who may also struggle with knowing God and his purpose for their life? Also, leave a review on Apple. Podcast and let me know what topics you'd like to hear about in the future. Your voice matters. I'll meet you back next Friday for another episode.