#032: Regulatory, Financial, & Social Challenges in Supportive Housing

Land use lawyer Andy Lane, with 28 years of experience in smart growth management and affordable housing, discusses the critical role of affordable and supportive housing in addressing chronic homelessness. He provides insights into the regulatory, financial, and social hurdles that must be overcome to expand these solutions.

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Transcript

00;00;00;00 - 00;00;20;22
Liz Church
Welcome to the Atrómitos Way Podcast. We have meaningful discussions on the challenges in healthcare and the solutions behind them. I'm your host, Liz Church. Each episode, we dive into the complexities of our health and social system, gaining the experiences and insights of the guests that shape our lives and our communities. So today, we are tackling a critical, yet often misunderstood issue of supportive housing.

00;00;20;24 - 00;00;42;29
Liz Church
Now, we've talked about this previously with our guests. Good Shepherd talking about how permanent supportive housing has proven to be a solution to combat chronic homelessness. And it's a long term solution to break the cycle. So we're going to be continuing the topic to understand the challenges, including financing and regulatory hurdles, and to continue to dispel those myths and misperceptions to help us navigate these complexities.

00;00;43;00 - 00;01;10;13
Liz Church
I have Andy Layne joining us today. He has spent the last 28 years as a land use lawyer, focusing much of his career on smart growth management and development. Andy will share his insights on overcoming these challenges and discuss comprehensive strategies to expand affordable and supportive housing inventory. We'll talk about the roles of the state and local regulations, the importance of stakeholder collaboration, and then effective methods for community engagement and education.

00;01;10;15 - 00;01;16;20
Liz Church
So without further ado, Adi, welcome to the show. It's awesome to have you aboard.

00;01;16;22 - 00;01;19;25
Andy Lane
Thanks for having me here.

00;01;19;28 - 00;01;40;02
Liz Church
So let's start with getting the basics out. So can you explain why affordable and supportive housing is crucial today and help us dispel common misconceptions? first, what I think is helpful here is defining these different housing models. So that way our listeners can follow along.

00;01;40;04 - 00;02;21;02
Andy Lane
Yeah, sure. Happy to. So if anybody is deciding on their housing that's we always think, okay, I can get a loan for a house if the housing costs. There's no more than 30% of my income. So that that's the basic concept of housing is generally affordable. If it's within if you're spending no more than 30% of your income on housing cost, including utilities, when it gets to the lower income, where we're talking about affordable housing, and the context of helping people out, it's the income that we're talking about is kind of a regional thing.

00;02;21;05 - 00;03;06;25
Andy Lane
You know, incomes vary widely across the country and even from county to county. So you look at the median income of that county for whatever size household it is. And if your income is within, like in Washington state, to have something defined as affordable housing, and most of the state-funded programs for rental housing, that expense has to be, expensive still within 30% of your income, but that income has to be 60% or less of the median household income for that county.

00;03;06;27 - 00;03;37;04
Andy Lane
And that's that's for rental for if you're owner-occupied housing and it's a little more, you know, a little higher percentage just because owner occupied housing, you're paying more of your upkeep and stuff. So so it's basically, you know, it's it varies what affordable housing is. But under programs varies depending on the program and where you are. But the subset of that is this permit of permanent supportive housing.

00;03;37;07 - 00;04;04;00
Andy Lane
and this is really geared towards those homeless folks that have, complex behavioral issues and physical health conditions. and neither are currently homeless or are, at risk of being homeless. And what this does permanent supportive housing. And I'll keep repeating that because that's a a phrase that needs to be etched in our, in our vocabulary.

00;04;04;03 - 00;04;36;16
Andy Lane
it's it's a kind of low barrier, affordable housing. low barrier means it's less concerned with your rental history. it is less concerned with even criminal history. The idea is to get somebody in housing and off the streets. but it's this housing combined with services that's health services. It's counseling services, you know, substance abuse services, that sort of thing.

00;04;36;18 - 00;05;09;06
Andy Lane
And the idea is that it provides, a support to help people who are in need of it kind of have, lead more stable lives and ultimately be, you know, become part of the community again. So that's that's kind of what it is. That's kind of the definition that, you know, there, there are flavors of, of both of those things that, you know, if you're digging into it more deeply you kind of break into that idea too.

00;05;09;06 - 00;05;33;15
Andy Lane
But so the primary question why is it crucial? Why do we care? You know, what's the big deal? for many reasons, and we see that the news everywhere on the streets there, there's a real shortage of affordable housing just across the country. And in Washington, our state legislature has even called. I'm going to read what their phrase was.

00;05;33;18 - 00;06;02;26
Andy Lane
They refer to homelessness as an epidemic that threatens the health of homeless families, sapping their human potential. And that has negative impacts on public safety, such as access to public streets, parks and facilities, etc.. So even the state legislature has said this is a big deal, and these are the real impacts that the sapping their human potential is.

00;06;02;29 - 00;06;47;10
Andy Lane
That's quite an observation and quite an accurate observation. a lot of the homeless suffer from serious behavioral issues or physical health conditions, and these things inevitably become worse if they're not treated right. so besides the personal cost of homeless or homelessness to those who are unhoused and to their families, there's also a significant cost to to the, I'll say, the rest of us in the form of having to provide for emergency services, transitional housing or jail stays, even hospitalizations.

00;06;47;12 - 00;07;03;29
Andy Lane
You know, air services and stuff like that. So and again, it could also include what if the homeless are sleeping on sidewalks or public parks, then they're in your way. I mean, it's how people see that and.

00;07;03;29 - 00;07;20;20
Liz Church
Assume and unfortunately, with the Supreme Court ruling that, now people can be fined and, and jailed for being homeless, it's like punishing someone for something that's, that's happened to them.

00;07;20;22 - 00;07;21;19
Andy Lane
right.

00;07;21;21 - 00;07;25;00
Liz Church
So it's that actually fuels more misconceptions.

00;07;25;00 - 00;08;02;23
Andy Lane
Unfortunately it does. And it it gets to a problem that doesn't get to a solution. It doesn't attempt to solve anything other than making homelessness less inconvenient for those who are homeless or housed. Yeah, but it doesn't do anything to solve the problem. And that's maybe that touches on an interesting Segway that's I guess I'd say so in addition to concepts of basic human compassion, which are all spiritual traditions, it's as a foundation of that.

00;08;02;23 - 00;08;35;15
Andy Lane
Right? and the cost to society and the big picture of just wasting human potential. permanent supportive housing actually saves money. It's it's cost effective. one of the, one of the studies that our state has relied on shows that, they actually had numbers. A person who's on the street, the average cost is like $35,000 a year for that person in the form of, emergency responders.

00;08;35;17 - 00;09;07;08
Andy Lane
health care, emergency health care costs, supporting transitional housing, that sort of stuff, as opposed to permanent supportive housing where it can cost as little as 30,000 a year. So it's like and the ultimate selfishness of of those of us who are housed, it's like, cool, it's cheaper and it gets them off the street and it helps them and maybe they're the ones who come up with great ideas for the future when we let them live up to their potential.

00;09;07;11 - 00;09;44;17
Liz Church
So yeah, and I think one thing, it's actually really hard for the public to understand is that they don't see the numbers. They don't they don't see the exorbitant costs in the what is the word, the inability to do something, the inability to actually solve the problem. They're not seeing like this is actually costing a lot more, rather than if we actually had these things implemented in place, actually utilize housing first, thinking about ways to help people get them back on their feet so they are housed first, and then tackling other problems like you're saving money in the long run.

00;09;44;19 - 00;10;01;01
Liz Church
I just don't know where that where that gets lost. I really don't understand where that gets lost. The. But let the you know, we speak about having human compassion and wanting to do things, but doing the thing, it seems like it's on the back burner. Like I don't need to do that. Somebody else need to solve that?

00;10;01;04 - 00;10;01;17
Liz Church
I don't know.

00;10;01;20 - 00;10;28;18
Andy Lane
Yeah, it kind of ties in with instant gratification, right? I mean, because it's text all the time or doing something, the answer's that simple. Yes. Or Facebook? Yeah. Oh, this is right. Period. The complexity isn't recognized. It isn't understood. And recognizing that most things in life are not simple. The solutions are. The causes aren't simple. Solutions aren't simple.

00;10;28;20 - 00;10;47;12
Liz Church
Yeah, this is not an easy fix. And I think you're right. When you, like, in my mind, just are unraveled with this, like, instant. Yes, instant gratification is a problem. Because if people have this idea like, oh yeah, this will be fixed just like this immediately. I had that misconception about getting my flaw fixed, and it took a whole year.

00;10;47;15 - 00;10;50;03
Liz Church
So I mean, how much more.

00;10;50;03 - 00;10;51;24
Andy Lane
Complicated can this be?

00;10;51;27 - 00;11;11;14
Liz Church
Exactly? And something seems so simple, like putting planks on a floor. But anyways, that idea that, you know, the thing, you know, people like to say, well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Well, same thing comes to having affordable housing for everyone. Isn't solved in a day, but it should at least somebody should at least get the ball rolling, right?

00;11;11;15 - 00;11;40;01
Liz Church
We should all be involved in doing the actually doing the thing. So it's I had this conversation very similarly with another guest, good Shepherd in Wilmington, North Carolina, where I am. And, we talked about the initiatives that they were doing and the misconceptions that she, she lives and Katrina, both those ladies were talking about. And I think from your standpoint, we're going to get a little bit more granular in the other side of things.

00;11;40;01 - 00;11;54;06
Liz Church
So from your experience, what role do state and local, local, regional like regulations play in expanding the inventory of affordable and supported housing?

00;11;54;09 - 00;12;32;19
Andy Lane
Yeah. So, the state and local governments can be the driver of this stuff. They can also be the roadblock to this stuff, to providing and making it easier to provide affordable housing and permanent supportive housing. so stepping back to what's what the states do. you know, they, they adopt legislation in and can adopt requirements that, you know, laws and stuff that either, developers have to follow or cities and counties have to follow.

00;12;32;22 - 00;13;08;17
Andy Lane
states create enabling legislation that authorizes cities and counties to do things. sometimes under state constitutions vary about what cities and counties could do. So sometimes the state itself has to spell out, you can't do this with your tax money. or you can't do this with your tax money so they can, you know, state can create a situation where either the state or locals can, spend funding on affordable housing projects, permanent supportive housing projects.

00;13;08;19 - 00;13;36;03
Andy Lane
the state can also kind of from top down talk about policy direction. That's one of the things that's that's been nice to see. And Washington state is from the governor's office on down. The policy has been to make this happen. So we've got state agencies that are working hard to do in state laws that the legislature has passed and create some requirements for state, for city and county governments to, to implement.

00;13;36;05 - 00;14;03;01
Andy Lane
So they can get down to the next level at the city and county level. it's up to cities and counties to implement a lot of this stuff. They too can create funding and, you know, help support things either, provide grants or, or even and we can talk about this a little later, but, but even provide exceptions from certain cost in developing housing.

00;14;03;03 - 00;14;32;04
Andy Lane
You know, like, oh, let's you don't have to pay for utility connections because you're, you're doing something beneficial to the whole community. So basically the city will eat that cost and that can be expensive. And so there are other things like that that they could do. so the cities and counties can also apply to more friendly regulation to not just allow development of these things but encourage it.

00;14;32;07 - 00;14;54;20
Andy Lane
Like, and what I mentioned that we can give you a break from some of the utility collections or other other costs that are normally associated with development. Maybe we can also provide cities can also say, and you know, you're not going to have such a big demand on parking. So your parking requirements aren't going to be the same.

00;14;54;22 - 00;15;21;06
Andy Lane
That means more dirt to use for the building. and maybe you don't have to leave as much space on your lawn. You know, more you could coverage or a lot more lot coverage, which it provides a better place on dirt that doesn't cost anybody anything. shares affordable housing and, permanent supportive housing developers money to build something bigger.

00;15;21;06 - 00;15;40;06
Andy Lane
So it just makes it more convenient that way. So that's that's kind of the things government can do. one of the money, though, is, is if it's making it legal to do it and providing encouragement, let it happen. funding is just a huge thing.

00;15;40;08 - 00;16;08;10
Liz Church
Yeah. And now it's not it. Funding can come from other avenues. Correct? It doesn't need to necessarily be just state and local, and there could be other people involved. So, and this is where this next question, because I think this is important to kind of talk about, is how important collaboration is among various stakeholders, not only with the government agencies, with the developers, and then other community organizations.

00;16;08;12 - 00;16;12;00
Liz Church
can you talk to how important it is to collaborate?

00;16;12;02 - 00;16;48;01
Andy Lane
Yeah, it's unless you have that collaboration. Is, a long, hard, frustrating process. Even with the collaboration, it's a long, frustrating process. But at least you have support and not, you know, less opposition to. And so, you know, I guess the need for collaboration is, you know, we need direction, funding, regulatory support from state local governments.

00;16;48;04 - 00;17;17;17
Andy Lane
We need developers of this type of, structure, you know, just to use who are smart, have money, and just have the skill set to do it. We need service providers. And whether they're part of that same organization that's developing it or other organizations that they're collaborating with to provide the services, the health services, the counseling services, all that sort of thing.

00;17;17;21 - 00;17;22;06
Andy Lane
We need all of them on board.

00;17;22;08 - 00;17;44;11
Andy Lane
And we certainly need the local community on board with it, whether it's a couple of people who are, champions. I guess I was going to say cheerleaders, but, that's a different flavor to it. It's, you know, champions of the project. They see the value. They they see that it's complex. And they're, you know, leader leaders in the community.

00;17;44;11 - 00;18;08;13
Andy Lane
And you interviewed such people before for this type of project and you know have somebody that's known in the community or people that are known in the community, whether they're elected officials or volunteers or, or business people, you know, have their collaboration is so helpful because it it helps others understand, oh, this, this is that much more important.

00;18;08;16 - 00;18;35;20
Andy Lane
Even having, you know, the emergency response folks in town be behind it, having your collaboration done, police and, emergency health responders, that sort of thing. And, and, speak out about the need for it and the benefits of it. All of those things are are helpful. there will.

00;18;35;23 - 00;19;03;02
Andy Lane
Always be opposition, whether people don't understand it or don't care. you know, there's that's always going to happen sort of more, working together, that you have, the more successful the project is going to be. One of the, you know, one of the things to keep in mind that having especially local collaboration is you really do want to address local concerns.

00;19;03;04 - 00;19;35;15
Andy Lane
You know, some places are different, you know, rural places different than a rural urban place as far as versus what the need is, but also for development, what's available for developing to even have water and sewer services, you know, or is it septic service which requires a larger lot? Are there and it's there are a lot of local considerations that are just we don't want it here, but instead, how can it work here?

00;19;35;15 - 00;19;55;25
Andy Lane
Because we're different than over there. So there's it's never one size fits all. But having the collaboration with the local input helps really tailor the design and and operation of a facility like that to, to really make a local needs.

00;19;55;27 - 00;20;18;29
Liz Church
I think something that's really important to talk about is, you know having that voice and having someone to illustrate like why it's necessary, why it's important. One thing that's a very complicated thing, especially where I am like it's like a very large topic. The affordable housing, supportive housing, like those have been key things for the last one, say, 4 or 5 years now.

00;20;19;01 - 00;20;48;02
Liz Church
And, one of the complications is zoning on everybody's arguing about zoning. So this next one, obviously zoning allowances can significantly impact our development of affordable and supportive housing. So Andy, can you discuss how current zoning regulations either help or hinder these developments? Now, I know across the country, I was about to say across the pond, but I can't use it in this instance across the country where you are in Washington.

00;20;48;04 - 00;20;53;04
Liz Church
it might be different. So, I mean, obviously speak from your experience.

00;20;53;06 - 00;21;29;26
Andy Lane
Yeah. So zoning varies wildly across the country and within a state. Zoning varies wildly. Sometimes within a county varies widely. And in Washington state in particular, there's, some pretty strong growth management laws about what's urban, what rural, what's natural resource lands like agriculture, timber and stuff, and the regulatory regime and requirements and standards is a little different for each of those types of areas.

00;21;29;28 - 00;21;59;26
Andy Lane
So, so, but but zoning in general is just kind of this. But I guess I'll make sure we get the definitions in place for the listeners. zoning, certainly the mechanism for controlling the use and development of land. And it's zoning includes both. The actual zoning of a parcel like this is zoned for single family. This is zoned for agricultural use, whatever that is.

00;21;59;29 - 00;22;34;29
Andy Lane
But it zoning also includes development standards, height of buildings, footprint, setbacks, parking requirements, all these other things. Zoning also gets us into the application review process. How an application what's what does it go through is it just staff looking at it? Is it separate hearing examiner is an elected official that sort of thing. So it's zoning has layers to it and it varies wildly.

00;22;35;01 - 00;23;05;19
Andy Lane
so and so it has it's kind of evolved, I guess I'll say the last almost hundred years to protect single family homes from other uses, industrial uses and, you know, intense commercial uses and stuff. Yeah. And then since then, it's more protected, single family from even multi-family. So it's like, we have single family homes here.

00;23;05;22 - 00;23;49;01
Andy Lane
We have large, multifamily complexes here. and, and that evolution of zoning, what it has eliminated was, a lot of other housing types, like rooming houses, small, you know, for 5 or 6 unit apartments, so that that sort of progression of things, kind of a housing and this whole range of housing types that are kind of zoned out by this single family homes in one spot, multifamily and another the that washed a lot of affordable housing.

00;23;49;04 - 00;24;28;23
Andy Lane
I mean, as a kid, my widowed mother housed a coworker. Where the room out to her, so essentially small rooming house, my wife and her, she and her mother lived in, like, someone's basement for a while. So those options are fewer and fewer as a result of kind of how zoning has changed. It's starting to roll back nowadays as cities are recognizing, gosh, there's a way to combat, affordable housing, you know, within our existing neighborhoods.

00;24;28;25 - 00;24;57;09
Andy Lane
So that's one thing zoning can do is the change to allow, you know, there's an empty lot in the neighborhood. Maybe put in a small, permanent supportive housing structure there, or affordable housing or allowing somebody to put an Adu, an accessory dwelling unit on their property in a neighborhood to make it affordable, that sort of thing. So zoning can be tweaked to do that and the development standards.

00;24;57;09 - 00;25;29;28
Andy Lane
We talked a little bit about this earlier. You know, it's like for to encourage affordable housing, permanent supportive housing, a jurisdiction a city can say, okay, you guys will waive the requirement to pay or you usually a lot of money for utility hookups, you know, other expenses like regulatory waivers can encourage development of these things. So even waiving development standards a little bit okay.

00;25;30;00 - 00;25;59;26
Andy Lane
You can build a little higher, maybe because you're doing this benefit to the community or we won't apply the setbacks, the property line setbacks the same to you. So you can build out closer to the property line because you're benefiting the community. So those are development standards that can be applied with in addition to zoning, the, you know, the other piece of it that can get really expensive in a zoning world is the approval process.

00;25;59;29 - 00;26;29;18
Andy Lane
Yeah. So when, you know, for Bush single family homes on a lot that already exist, you just go and submit an application and staff says, okay, signs off on it and you get a house. so having codes that are written and detailed enough where staff is the one that makes the decisions, that's a really cheap way to go, which saves a lot of time, a lot of money.

00;26;29;21 - 00;27;20;27
Andy Lane
Staff is skilled enough and can read the code and administratively say okay, this use is allowed here. your building design and your supportive structure, you know, support services. It's all meets the code. Okay, here's your permit. but it can also be another layer of review efforts. There are things to be weighed and balanced, like what is there need to be buffering between the neighbors or is there do we really need to do a more detailed look at parking requirements or something that may kick it up to a different level of review, where you have a hearing examiner kind of independent third party which is employed by the city but still is as an

00;27;20;27 - 00;27;48;05
Andy Lane
independent decision maker, it staff reviews everything and hands it to this person. It says, here's our recommendation that this person, this hearing examiner decides and that person takes testimony from the public, adheres all of their concerns, and then considers all the when there's a flexible code at this point to try and put the conditions on it that make the most sense for that community.

00;27;48;05 - 00;27;59;10
Andy Lane
And this year's, so it responds to some community concerns, but it also is a longer, less predictable and therefore more expensive process.

00;28;00;11 - 00;28;38;13
Andy Lane
And there are certainly some places where the process where the elected officials ultimately decide, to approve or not approve something like this. And that certainly reflects but a community input. But it is also, reflects. Kind of community bias to the extent that it applies to political decisions. and that's and that creates a whole other level of uncertainty and makes it even more tenuous and more expensive.

00;28;38;16 - 00;29;01;10
Liz Church
So public perception often poses significant challenges to the affordable and supportive housing initiatives. So can you discuss the common public perception issues and the opposition that these projects face, and highlight how we can kind of go forward with these initiatives in community engagement?

00;29;01;13 - 00;29;32;05
Andy Lane
yeah. So I guess the starting point on, on this is one of the perceptions that these are mostly addicts, you know, who were just living on the street. and it's like, yeah, well, you know, most folks who are living on the street, it's there are other reasons, you know, maybe their behavioral health issues or medical issues, disabilities and stuff, but it's the lack of affordable housing.

00;29;32;07 - 00;29;47;02
Andy Lane
It's low wages and it's high cost of living. All of these various things come into play and most people who have substance abuse problems, who are on the street develop those after being on the street.

00;29;48;03 - 00;30;15;20
Andy Lane
So being on the street came first and then substance abuse stuff happened. so that's kind of one piece of this perception. Another is, you know, some people just want to be on the street. It's like, yeah, that's I think the, the legal phrase for that is that's bullshit. That's absolutely not the case. people are on the street because of circumstances.

00;30;15;22 - 00;30;39;00
Andy Lane
maybe it's a bad decision that they made somewhere along the line. Usually it's something else. It's something that has essentially happened and and, you know, ultimately resulted in them not being able to afford a place to stay. So, other misperceptions or other concerns, I guess I'll raise it differently. This is going to lower my property value.

00;30;39;02 - 00;31;07;13
Andy Lane
Yeah, not really. But first, legitimate concern, right. Because people who own homes, that's usually among the biggest asset. That's where their money is sitting. So the fear is real when we can't just dismiss it. but a lot of studies have shown there's really no link between having portable housing and permanent supportive housing in a neighborhood that drives, property values.

00;31;07;15 - 00;31;31;24
Andy Lane
in a collaborative sense, to what would be good in a particular project area is to talk with the local realtors and kind of get their take on it and have them say, oh, yeah, that's not going to change anything, or, yeah, we've got this other affordable housing project over here. No, everything's fine. So that's how folks, a way to knock that up.

00;31;31;26 - 00;32;02;14
Andy Lane
another misconception is it's going to make my neighborhood unsafe. And again, it's legitimate concern. but, you know, first thing it does is get people off the street. Those people that scare you when you walk home and have to walk off the sidewalk and can't go to your park. So, you know, at a well-managed, permanent supportive housing outfit, these people are getting help.

00;32;02;14 - 00;32;27;11
Andy Lane
The those who were unhoused are now getting support. It's like they could take a deep breath, relax and and do something constructive. Yeah. I'm not saying it's a big thing necessarily for an individual, but something more than than try to find a place to sleep or even go to the bathroom. You know, without those concerns, I could do something more.

00;32;27;13 - 00;32;30;15
Andy Lane
And I ultimately adds to the community.

00;32;30;17 - 00;32;58;15
Liz Church
I think it's really important to do this, too. And I, you know, I just want to pull this up real quick because this is also, helps people understand these things. So so we learn it in business, school, psychology, all these different things. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. And on the very bottom for psychological needs air, water, food, shelter, sleep, clothing and oh my goodness, what?

00;32;58;15 - 00;33;21;09
Liz Church
You know what happens when you have all of these things. Then you can start forming feeling safe and feeling like you can have the resources, health and productivity to do something to contribute in some form or fashion. And I think if people understand, you know, breaking it down in this way of like, you know, if you don't have your basic psychological needs met, you're not going to be okay.

00;33;21;09 - 00;33;34;06
Liz Church
So getting these folks into homes helps them achieve that next level of their need. Pyramid. I might include this in like, a, like a nicer version of this picture in like a show like step one.

00;33;34;09 - 00;33;37;25
Andy Lane
Step. Right. Because it's.

00;33;37;25 - 00;33;39;07
Liz Church
Important.

00;33;39;10 - 00;34;06;13
Andy Lane
Yeah. And it's, emphasized and reinforced by brain studies for years. there was a book I read a few years ago, and I forget the, the author, but the book is called scarcity, and it talks about what it does to the brain to be, you know, without resources, whether it's in the business world, if you're too busy, you can't think of everything.

00;34;06;17 - 00;34;32;17
Andy Lane
Right? I mean, you're overwhelmed with everything that has to be done. You missed things. So it's sad when you don't have the resources, time, you know, to do everything you're going at this time. Certainly. And if you don't have a place to sleep or a place to get food or some way to protect your young daughter with, you know what?

00;34;32;19 - 00;34;57;12
Andy Lane
You're not going to you're out of resources to consider anything else. This is the only thing that your brain allows you to do, and it you know, yeah, there's some brain changes that happen and and it stays that way until there's some relief to that lack of resources to that scarcity. so it's a, it's a real thing.

00;34;57;14 - 00;35;20;24
Andy Lane
and that's a more difficult to explain to people and why they should be concerned about that. But then you just mentioned that somebody well, you remember when you were so busy doing blood, you forgot about those. That's kind of the same idea isn't it. Spell it out a little more detail that might given moment. Why not.

00;35;20;24 - 00;35;44;06
Liz Church
But it might not. But if you kind of lay out the groundwork to show everyone how these things are interconnected. Well you don't think so at first you find out that they are. And one of the things that when we were building this podcast, what we recognize is that everything comes back to public health. It's not just, you know, going to the doctor and having these things.

00;35;44;06 - 00;36;10;03
Liz Church
It's your living environment, your social environment. It's, you know, mind, body and soul for sure. But when you map out that 80% of a person's health also is based on the societal factors around them, why would you suddenly think that homelessness is not an issue? Why would you think that we don't need to help these folks get back on their feet?

00;36;10;06 - 00;36;14;12
Liz Church
It's all tied together down the day.

00;36;14;15 - 00;36;16;10
Andy Lane
Yeah, absolutely.

00;36;16;13 - 00;36;42;08
Liz Church
Yeah. So many things. We could expand on this forever and I see myself doing that. So I have one final question for you, my dear. So in your view, what are the most critical steps that we need to take to overcome the challenges facing supportive housing and permanent supportive housing to ensure that these vital services reach those who need it effectively.

00;36;42;13 - 00;37;19;12
Andy Lane
Starting out with more affordable housing to begin with that will keep more people in homes. and that can be done either direct financial help or indirectly through regulatory encouragement. But as to permanent supportive housing, specifically, well, like we're doing today, talk about it more. it's every time homelessness pops up in the news or in the paper, in community meetings also, it should pop up.

00;37;19;14 - 00;37;31;19
Andy Lane
Hey, here's a solution that has worked. and the more we keep repeating that, the more it enters our everybody's vocabulary.

00;37;32;15 - 00;37;58;02
Andy Lane
And the more it's in the vocabulary, the more it's part of the discussion and ultimately part of the solution. So it seems like a real subtle thing. But if we don't have the brain Velcro to talk about something we need to create it. So, so permanent supportive housing, permanent supportive housing. We're creating a shelter and then it sticks and oh right.

00;37;58;04 - 00;38;29;27
Andy Lane
When we hear about homelessness. Oh isn't there an opportunity. So that that's kind of the starting point. but also when there is a proposal support it you know, speak out, comment on it. You know, talk to people about it, testify at community meetings approval process and it letters of support. that's let everybody know how important it is.

00;38;29;29 - 00;38;45;25
Andy Lane
And that you're in favor of it. You know that's one thing we can do. You know go. I guess I'd say let's adopt a mantra. permanent supportive housing works.

00;38;47;03 - 00;38;53;15
Andy Lane
You know it would be more complicated than that. But, you know, there are so many syllables. One should have an a mantra.

00;38;53;17 - 00;39;10;21
Liz Church
So should make it some stickers to just the bumper stickers images. And I don't really want to say we should deface public property, but you can stick them on the stuff. Yeah, get it out there. Make people see. It's a mantra that really is starting small. But I mean, really, it shouldn't be that hard to understand.

00;39;10;25 - 00;39;11;10
Andy Lane
Yeah.

00;39;11;12 - 00;39;17;21
Liz Church
That's an end of the day. That's all it is. But thank you for coming and talking to me about this today. I greatly appreciate it.

00;39;17;24 - 00;39;20;23
Andy Lane
You're very welcome. My pleasure.

00;39;20;23 - 00;40;23;01
Liz Church
The Atrómitos Way is produced by me, Liz Church. Editorial assistance for this episode was by my fantastic team at Atrómitos. I would like to express our heartfelt appreciation to our guests who shared their expertise, stories, and insights with us on the podcast—finally, a big thank you to our listeners. Your support and engagement have meant the world to us at Atrómitos.  
 
We are a boutique consulting firm with the imperative mission of creating healthier, more resilient, more equitable communities. I encourage you to connect with us. Let’s continue these conversations and work together towards positive change. 
  
You can listen to all of our previous episodes on our website,  
atromitosconsulting.com/atromitos-way.  
That’s (a-r-t-o-m-i-t-o-s) 
 
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We’ll see you next time.