Breaking the Silence on Male Fertility

There’s a part of the fertility journey that is so often overlooked.

Because while so much of this experience is centred around women, the truth is, fertility is never just one person’s journey.

So today, we’re opening up that conversation in a really powerful way. In this episode, I’m joined by Jacky maughan and his story brings a perspective we don’t hear nearly enough.

After experiencing male factor infertility himself, he shares what it’s really like to walk this path as a man… the pressure to stay strong, the quiet sense of responsibility, the emotional impact that often goes unspoken, and the ways it can affect identity, relationships, and self-worth.

We talk about why so many men struggle in silence during IVF, what support actually looks like from a male perspective, and how couples can feel more connected through this process.

And most importantly, we explore how men can begin to feel more empowered, more involved, and more supported on this journey too.

This is such an honest, grounding and deeply needed conversation… whether you’re navigating fertility right now, or you want to better understand your partner’s experience.

By the time you finish listening, you'll find out:

• Jacky's own personal journey through infertility + IVF
• Where men can reach out for support when trying to conceive
• How to support your male partner through this process 

You can connect with Jacky via his website or Instagram

EMBRACE THE JOURNEY IS BACK at the end of this month!

This FREE 3-day live training event will show you how to use the practices of Fertility Yoga, Meditation + Breathwork to:

• Support your fertility
• Regulate your menstrual cycle
• Cam your nervous system
• Ease the anxiety of TTC
• And be in the energy of a group of

Thanks for being here on Your Journey to Fertility! When you finish listening, I'd love to hear your biggest takeaway from today’s episode. Take a screenshot of you listening on your device, share it to your Instagram stories and tag me @jen.elementpilatesyoga 

If you're trying to conceive, I have lots of resources to support you:

To grab a copy of my Free Fertility Yoga Guide, click here:

To jump inside the Secret Fertility Shift private podcast series, click here:

To learn more about In Your Element - The Fertility Yoga Experience click here and start using so many of the practices I speak about for yourself.

This program is a guided way to: 

• Sync with your cycle & synchronize your hormones
• Increase success rates through proven, scientific methods
• Regulate your nervous system & make every part of this journey feel easier

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

There's a part of the fertility journey that is so often overlooked. Because while so much of this experience is centered around women, the truth is fertility is never just one person's journey. So today we are opening up that conversation in a really powerful way. In this episode, I am joined by Jackie Moon, and his story brings a perspective that we don't hear nearly enough. After experiencing male factor in fertility himself, he shares what it's really like to walk this path as a man. The pressure to stay strong, the quiet sense of responsibility, the emotional impact that often goes unspoken, and all the ways that it can affect identity, relationships, and self-worth. We talk about why so many men struggle in silence during IVF and what that support actually looks like from a male perspective. And most importantly, we explore how men can begin to feel more empowered, more involved, and more supported on this journey too. This is such an honest, grounding, and deeply needed conversation. Whether you are navigating fertility right now or you just want to understand your partner's experience better. Welcome to your journey to fertility. This is the podcast that blends science with spirit to give you all the tools you need as you navigate your fertility journey. I'm your host, Jennifer Edmonds, and for the last 15 years I've been helping women on their journeys to motherhood and beyond. I believe that combining the latest scientific research along with the best energetic and mindset practices will help you to avoid putting your life on hold and bring you closer to your baby. Each week you'll learn ways to support your fertility and trust your body so that you can stop stressing, that you'll never have your baby, and finally walk your path to motherfuckers. This is the Your Journey to Fertility Podcast. Hello, welcome back to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here, and I am really excited for you to hear this episode today. Because Jackie is one of the very few men that I have come across who speak really openly on social media about fertility issues, and especially from those who are diagnosed with male factor. I really wanted to get Jackie on the podcast because he is so unfiltered, he's super funny, he has heaps of advice for other men, and he isn't afraid to criticize the fertility industry and the lack of investigations around men that seem to happen, and especially in his case in particular. After we recorded this conversation, I did ask Jackie if it would be okay to share his social media details. And he said that if you know that your partner is struggling on this journey for any reason, he's more than happy to be a sounding board and for them to reach out to him. So I will list all of that in the show notes. But let's get into this episode for today. Here is Jackie. Jackie, welcome to the podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you here with me. I have known you kind of through social media for a few months now. I think we've kind of touched base over the months, and you have just launched something amazing, which we're going to talk about in a little while as well. But I wanted to say welcome and thank you for being here. And if you don't mind, can we start by learning a little bit about you and what has kind of brought us together in the fertility space?

SPEAKER_02 3:14

Yeah, of course. Well, thanks again for having me. Yeah, we um we were following you for a little while, and I think I mentioned this to you. Um we had a conversation maybe a month ago, and we were back and forth on messages on Instagram, I think. And me and Eleanor have been watching your stuff. And I think what let me just before I go into the intro, just to kind of touch upon this, what really resonated with your content is that you just made it relatable and you came across in you try to add elements of humor to your content in such a it's such a tough subject matter, and the the the whole conversation on infertility can be a bit doom and gloom. And I understand obviously it's a difficult topic to talk about, regardless. If you're talking about or involved in infertility or the fertility world, it's a struggle, right? But you added a um a really nice refreshing edge to it, which we we loved, and we might have even taken some inspiration with some of our stuff that we do in our stories and stuff. So yeah, thanks for that. But yeah, Jen, thank you so much for having me. A little bit of an intro on myself. So I'm uh Jackie, I'm one of the co-founders of Aluma. Aluma is um fertility community. We'll I'll come on to that in a second, but we're trying to essentially create a space to help people um not feel so isolated. Um, we were on a five and a half year, it was just under five and a half year fertility journey, me and my wife, which started in around March 2020. And we didn't think anything was wrong um at the start, and just kind of let's see what happens. I'm not gonna go into it, we'll probably go into it in the podcast, but long story short, went through three rounds of IVS, we had three losses, we did several things, uh, eastern medicine, western medicine. We literally tried everything. We found out we both had kind of like how we describe it is the full house of bingo of infertility on both sides, myself and my wife. So we had we did a lot of work on ourselves, and we eventually, after a lot of struggle, we got our miracle in October last year. We had Archie, who was born in October last year, and we couldn't be more grateful. But what we found during that time was that we felt as a couple and also as individuals, and speaking personally, as a man, I didn't feel we didn't feel supported emotionally. There's so much clinical support and advice, and you know, all when it comes to the clinical side of things, we found there was maybe so much information, it's information overload, which I'm sure you can um you can be you understand that that side of things. But when it came to the emotional side, the human element of this, we felt that we were, I wouldn't say let down, we just we just didn't feel supported, which brought us on to launch in a Luma. And we just started by posting some of our experiences on our social, my new social media page and just seeing if it got traction, and we realized that this conversation resonates across the board when it comes to fertility. So that's a little bit about me and kind of why we're doing this. And uh yeah, obviously, we we crossed paths on social media because that was kind of that's kind of the outlet, right? Where you get your your message across and we just loved your content and you know we were back and forth, and now it's brought us to this podcast conversation. So thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the invite.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

Oh, thank you, Jackie. That's so kind of you. And I I think it's one of those situations, right, where if you don't laugh, you'll cry. And we all do cry a lot through the journey, so we need to add a little bit of dark humour into there as well. And I just think, you know, it like you said, it's such a heavy subject matter. We need to bring a bit of lightness to it, and I I appreciate that, and you guys do as well. So thank you. One of the things I I guess I was really drawn to to you guys uh for was the fact that you were so willing yourself to put your face to the fact that you had struggled to to have your family. And, you know, when I started going through IVF, it was what, to 2017, I think it was. And like there was no one injecting themselves on Instagram, you know, back then. And now you see it quite a lot, and it's become amazing to see that people have become so open about, you know, the journeys that they're going through, but you still don't see a lot of men talking about it. And I get asked all the time by my students to like, who can my partner talk to? You know, is there anyone that my husband can go and speak to to get support? And like you said, exactly as you said, you get the medical side of things supported really well, don't you? It's information overload. But like no doctor is saying to you, you know, how's your relationship going? What are your stress levels like? How are you coping about this? Have you got any friends that you can speak to? You know, that isn't your doctor's job. So we need an alternative. And I think that's, you know, it's amazing what you guys have put together. But I would love, before we get into talking about a Loomer and all the amazing things that you that you've been able to achieve throughout this journey, can you tell me a little bit about, you know, when, at what stage did you really find that you were struggling emotionally? And did it how did it differ between you and your wife?

SPEAKER_02 8:32

Yeah, that's a really good question. So when it came to um a realization that I was struggling, I think that was probably not long after the first miscarriage that we had. So we're talking, I think it was around 21, 22. It was kind of year one, year two, that um, you know, between yeah, 12 to 18 months. And we we were kind of as a couple, we're being drawn apart through the the frustration and the the lack of knowledge, and because at this point we hadn't really been diagnosed fully with what we actually found out in year three and year four. We were still kind of battling with this unexplained infertility thing, and I do this because and I I just did it, I didn't even mean to do it, but it is like um one of those things that you're told which doesn't give you it doesn't mean anything, um, in my in my opinion. So we were frustrated with each other because we didn't know how to help each other, and then when the when a loss came into the to the picture, obviously that's something we'd never experienced before. We both lost something that we would be looking forward to for so long, and then the heartbreak that comes with that. Now my wife and I are very different in terms of how we handle things. Now, I think the whole male factor thing and the the male voice topic, if you like, is is starting to come um is starting to become more popular than an adult, but men in general don't like to talk about stuff, right? We like to hold it in. A lot of men like to hold it in. I don't know whether it's a pride thing or you know, map the masculine thing or whatever it is, but men in terms of society and how we look at this are supposed to be the strong ones to provide and you know, all this thing that like comes with a societal pressure and not show vulnerability, that's another big thing. So I realized in those moments, the first, obviously, the second miscarriage that we had, that I was feeling very vulnerable and didn't know who to speak to. I didn't want to speak to Eleanor about it because she's going through it, she is good physically going through it and mentally going through it. So for me to go and then tell her or try and almost offload onto her how I'm feeling is just gonna make her worse. I've got to live with Eleanor, Eleanor's gotta live with me. We've got to, we've got to still try and create some dynamic where we can push on with life. But I didn't know who to go to. So it was kind of those early, those early first or second years where we were going through like not knowing what's going on, what is wrong with us? Are we broken? Are our bodies not gonna work? All these things. And then I started to look around, right? So I'm kind of looking in my ecosystem and I'm looking at and I'm gonna just say, I'm not gonna say names, but like, you know, parents, whether it's either side of the family, um, don't didn't really understand what we're going through. And I think in general, unless you've been through this, you don't understand, okay? So I was looking at them, you know, maybe they were trying to say the right things, but not, and they were kind of, you know, they weren't malicious, but they just didn't know how to handle the emotions that I was going through. Friends of mine, say for example, friends that had a miscarriage or a loss or still going through infertility themselves, you don't want to go to them because they're going through it, and you feel even though they're probably the most perfect people to speak to, I didn't want to put it on them. I had friends that have had the whole, oh yeah, my husband looks at me and I get pregnant stuff. So they again, and then that's a brilliant. Like, if you can, if that happens, I mean I'm not taking anything away from that. I think it's if that happens for you, that's amazing. But I didn't feel comfortable speaking to them. I did look online, I've tried Facebook groups, I think I went on Reddit for like six months, and that just made me feel worse. So, anyway, I'm rambling now, but to come back to your question, it was those kind of early losses that made me realize that I don't know who to speak to, I don't know who my support system is, I don't have anyone I can relate with, I don't know where to go. And I think it was again taking that away from Eleanor because I didn't want to put anything more on her. And it, I'll be honest, Jenny, just is if I have to describe it anyway, it's just a feeling of being lost. I just felt lost in the ether. So it was early on when I realized this, and then not until we actually got pregnant the third time where it was successful, sorry, the fourth, the fourth time, because we had three losses, that we started to be able to have the bandwidth to do something about it and start talking openly on our socials. But until that point, until we're kind of not in the clear, but you know, when I we started to see light at the end of the tunnel, I wasn't speaking very openly about this at all to anyone, social media for sure. Um so yeah, it was definitely quite early I realized that I felt quite isolated and quite vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And it's it's so interesting what you said, how you didn't want to go to Eleanor and say, I'm really struggling. And I think back to when I was in the thick of it with my journey, and you know, my poor husband, he had to be my everything, you know, he had to be my rock, my therapist, my shoulder that I cried on. You know, he was he just had to be that person. And I I so feel for the fact that he didn't have that for with anyone, you know, he like you, he was trying to be strong. He didn't want to come and upset me even further. And I just think it's really validating that you say that thank you, because I hope that men will listen to this and realise that they are in the same position where they are struggling themselves and there is no shame in that as well. So, what did you find once you you kind of you got that positive pregnancy test and the the pregnancy started going well? How did you then start to resolve a little bit of what you've been through? Because I mean, five years, I mean, we don't discount the trauma of loss and the endless tests and procedures and cycles and everything. And yes, what Eleanor went through was full on, but what you went through was was awful as well. So, how did you start to kind of get your get your life back, get your relationship back, and feel like a real person again?

SPEAKER_02 14:54

So it came, it's not like a moment where we realized, oh, we're out of the woods. I think even when Eleanor was pregnant this last time, it wasn't actually until he arrived that she was able to kind of um make it tangible, right? But in that in that mo in that journey from you know um the the transfer in January to when he arrived in October, I think when we got past that 20-week mark, that's between 12 and 20 weeks, we really started to be able to see ourselves again. I think I've mentioned this on some of our posts before, that we lost a part of our personality, we became the couple who were trying, like that's how we saw ourselves. We became the infertile couple, and we never I never said that out loud before. But we we really like when we went to see friends, they probably were very uh mindful about what they said. Um, or sometimes they wouldn't, we wouldn't get invited to stuff on purpose because we told them we didn't want to be invited to things, and we started getting invited to things again, uh, which was nice, and being able to go to social events and not feel awkward when there's kids around, you know. But for example, for example, there's there's situations where at the start of this, some of Eleanor's friends weren't pregnant. We started trying first, and then when we were like still trying, some of them had two kids and they'd be having barbecues. And so all those things started to happen again, and it made us remember who we used to be. It's quite emotional just talking about it because you do you do get sucked into this vortex of the cycle, right? So you've got the female cycle every month, whether you're doing IVF or you're trying naturally, every 28 days, or however long your cycle is, you've got this constant, like, okay, the periods come. So Eleanor now isn't pregnant, and she now has to she has to bleed for however many days, and she's feeling really sad, and she's got the emotions from the cycle. Then it comes to the ovulation, right? We've got to get ready, everyone, like all this stuff, and then it's just this whole cycle. So we stopped thinking about the cycle, which was nice. That cycle just disintegrated, dissolved, and it just released such a large amount of tension which was on our shoulders for so long. And at that point, obviously, we started talking about it on our social media pages, then we started the Illuma page, but it really wasn't until that moment that that we could kind of remember what we used to be like, but yeah, across that time, you are right. I I I um relate to what you said about your other half, which was that we are the you guys are going through it physically, we're both going through it mentally, but you know, trying our best as men to pick up the pieces and to to rally us and like because we're it's it's a team effort. We have I've got a post about to go out soon, which is basically like no one told us that IVF was a team sport, right? And so it really is, and it really became a team sport, but picking it picking the pieces up, it's like it's energy, right? You're just taking on a lot of energy all the time. But when I could release the the tension and start to see myself again in that in that fourth to fifth year, was even now I look at it and I just see such a difference in us, in our relationship, in our intimacy, in our friendships, in our social situations, everything just starts to come back into the frame. You're just like this is what we've not been like for so long. Um so yeah, I think that's probably that's probably the time I would say that 12 to 20 week mark where we could really start to see ourselves again. And it was it was refreshing, really refreshing.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

I wonder what you would have said if you know we'd recorded this podcast two years ago and you were still in the thick of things, and I asked you, you know, how does that feel when your friends aren't inviting you to things because they've had two kids in the time that you haven't even had one? What would you say? What like how I know as a woman how that made me feel, or as a person, but how did that make you feel?

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Well, in their defense, we kind of told them. So we we kind of said, you know, if they were they planned trips and stuff and they got away with like two or three families or whatever, and we would say, like we were, we we are we know we're invited, of course we're gonna be invited, but we we um we proactively kind of said that we we appreciate it if like we didn't because yeah, obviously.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

And it's lovely they do, but it doesn't make it any better, does it?

SPEAKER_02 19:34

No, no, I'm not of course, and I know what you I know what the question is, but no, it doesn't it it if you'd asked me that like two years ago, I would have been devastated. I'd st I would have said I'm devastated that that this is the situation, but it's we we realised in the in the midst of this, we start saying yes to stuff. Like, for example, Eleanor went to it was about three years in actually, so this is about the right time. This question, hypothetical question would have been asked, but she got invited to something where I can't remember what sort of thing it was, but it wasn't a party, but it was loads of kids, right? So it was a it wasn't a christening, it was like a children's thing, and there was like all the mams with the with the kids. And then Eleanor went thinking, you know what? I'm gonna be brave, I'm gonna go, and I'm gonna I'm gonna do it, and it's gonna be fine. And she had to leave. She had to leave after about 45 minutes, an hour. And she called me and she said, I could I can't do it, and she was crying. And that, yeah, so that's so basically back to your question. It's uh it's like when someone, when you're in amongst it, and someone texts you a kind message to say, Look, I'm I know you're going through it, but I'm pregnant, someone you know, and it's like a thoughtful message, they're not gonna they want to tell you first before they do any announcements or whatever, and it's this feeling of being really happy for them, conflicting, really happy for them, but at the same time being so sad for you, being so so sad for yourself. And it's this, it's such a conflicting mix of emotions. So I think I would have answered that. I would have said that I'm look, I'm I'm really happy for everyone else who is who's getting pregnant, but I'm still really, really sad and and sad that we can't go to these social situations and then we have to protect our energy because I was saying before, everything's energy, right? And we're very, very firm believers. And if you say yes to someone else, you're most of the time saying no to you. So when we'd say yes to some of these situations where we knew we probably should have said no, we were saying no to ourselves, so we'd go and we'd feel uncomfortable and it would be all you know a bit weird. So yeah, it is difficult actually just thinking about how we used to feel because I actually even said to Hello in the car this week, it might have been last week. I I said, Do you remember how we used to feel every day? And she went, Yeah. And I said, It's been so long since I've got up in the morning and I've dreaded I didn't want to get out of bed someday. Because it's this that feeling of here we go again. It didn't matter where in the cycle, there's always one day. It's like, oh, ovulations in three days, so we have to try and be positive and try and get in the mood. Or it's like you know, it's almost the end of the cycle. Is she pregnant? Is she not? But you've got that anxiety, is it been successful? Has it not? And I haven't had that in so long. And so, you know, two years ago I would have had that feeling, but now sat here, I feel so grateful to not have that feeling. But I know how many other people, and for my my view, men are out there sat in this, sat in their own feelings, trying to hold it together for the team, for the couple, for the household, and just not having any outlet.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

It's impossible, isn't it? It takes over every tiny little part of your life, and it completely consumes you. And that what you said is so relatable. And oh, when you got the diagnosis, so you said you had the was it the the whole kit and caboodle of diagnosis.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

Yeah, we say that we had the full the full house, the bingo full house in fatility. It's an exaggeration, it's a bit of an exaggeration, but it it I sorry, I'll let you ask the question.

SPEAKER_00 23:14

No, no, no. I I had a similar issue. We were not unexplained, we had male and female issues. Um, I want to ask you, because you know, we know that male fertility issues account for up to half of fertility concerns these days within couples, and it is not talked about enough. And I don't think that men are having this conversation with their mates at the pub, you know, what's your sperm count like? So I want to ask how you felt when you got that diagnosis. And what did you what did you think that you were going to have to do, or what what did you think your future would would look like when when that happened?

SPEAKER_02 23:51

So I remember this pretty well. And I had so just to give a bit of context, we tried for a year. We went to the NHS, which is for people who don't know the UK kind of health service, national health service in the UK. And they basically do, if you haven't have tried for 12 months, they'll do basic tests. So they do blood on L and R, blood work, and they do a semen analysis on on me. And mine came back, all the numbers were fantastic, but one number was really low, which was the morphology. It was one. Now, the minimum in the UK, or the this is the NHS guidelines, is it should be at least four above. So that's basically a percentage that have got the right shape. So one one or under percent of my sperm were the right shape, which is super low. But they said if you'd had low sperm count, low mortality, etc. etc., it'd be a problem. But you've got millions, you've got hundreds of millions, so don't worry about it, it's fine. You only need one sperm. So we were obviously we didn't know anything at the time. We were this is 12 months in. We were super naive, didn't have a clue about the stats or the numbers, or we had no done no research really, or Eleanor had, but I hadn't. At that point in time, I was still as a man going, it's gotta be her. It's not, it's not the it's not me. Like this is just this is the view that I had, and a lot of men do have. And I don't mind admitting it, I feel stupid now saying it, but this is just how society is kind of structured. It's that someone can't get pregnant, it's because the women have a problem. Well, I don't know, it's getting better now, but anyway, sorry, I digress. So I the the time Eleanor went to do her acupuncture, she was getting acupuncture at the time, and her acupuncturist, I'll mention his name as well because he helped us out quite a lot. It's Ian Stones from Test Him. Big up Ian. He mentioned to Eleanor in passing, he went, Has has Jackie been tested for anything other than a sperm analysis? And Eleanor was like, No, no one's mentioned anything. And he saw the semen analysis and he went, You should probably get a DNA fragmentation test. And Eleanor was like, What's DNA fragmentation test? And she came back and told me, and I went, What's a DNA fragmentation test? This sounds like a lot of waffle. Um, and anyway, we went down this rabbit hole. Ian kind of introduced me to someone who could give the test. I did the test, it came back and he said, Would you like to do a rundown of the results when they come in? I said, Yeah, fine. No, just thinking nothing of it, I'll come back, we'll be sweet. And we booked it in. It was our old house. I'm sitting at the computer, just like I am with you now doing this podcast. And Ian comes on and he says, We've got your results, it's not good. And my draw, my jaw drops, and I'm just like, What? And he goes through this half an hour, 45 minutes. I mean, in layman's terms, I've got a pencil here. The the results are supposed to look like this, right? Mine was the opposite way, it couldn't have been any more the opposite way. So the ones that should have been good were really bad, and the ones that were bad were good. So it was completely outweighed. This is to kind of put it lightly. And he basically said that you've got a lot of work to do to get this to where you need it to be. So lifestyle changes for one. All these things won't go into it. You wouldn't ask me about the feelings. I remember coming off that call, the call ended, and I remember just staring at the screen for probably like four or five minutes, just like a blank screen. And I didn't even want to call Eleanor because I felt embarrassed, super embarrassed. I felt shame. Um, these are just this isn't like a proactive thing. This is just like a reflex. I felt that I'm letting her down. And I I've described this sometimes as like we passed the baton to each other. So at the start, Eleanor was taking the baton because she's like, it's her, she's getting pregnant, it's her fault. It's the fault game, right? And then I had this result, and then she passed the baton to me, but she at the time I was sat at this computer and I had the baton, but she didn't know. So I had to explain it to her that I've got a problem and I need to sort it out. So the feelings were all over the place, and I would say it took me probably three to four months, maybe even I would say six to really come to terms with it. I was doing all the things like no when go commando, no heat down there, no saunas, all these things. I even ended up going to another appointment and then found out I had a varicose seal, so I had to have that embolized as well. So there was a it was lifestyle changes, diet, food, drink, all that stuff, alcohol. And then there was a varicose seal, which is another thing, and it went from one to six, so I did make a massive improvement, but the feelings, which is the question, were struggle. I think that was the time I've struggled the most, and I went inwards. I think I mentioned before, I didn't actually go into it. Eleanor and I are very different. She likes to talk about things and get them off the chest, whereas I just like to go inwards, or I like to just put it into something else, whether it's and I did do this, I channeled it into the gym, I channeled it into running, um, doing hard stuff. So that's kind of how I wanted to do it. But then I had to have this conversation with Eleanor after that call with Ian and explain to her that I've got a problem, and that was again another level of kind of disappointment and let feeling like I'm letting her down. Like, and I'm sure that's how women feel when they do a cycle of IVF or Ixia, whatever it is, and then it doesn't stick because Eleanor said to me times that she feels like her body's failing her, or my body's my body isn't doing what it's supposed to do. And that's how I felt in that moment. I felt my body is failing us, it's failing us having a family. There's no feeling like that. It's just yeah, devastating.

SPEAKER_00 29:41

I really appreciate you saying all of that. And I I also love what you said about how you uh you got you got the result and you're like, oh no, it was still not me. Like the doctor said it was fine. And how frustrating, how frustrating is it that this is like the one semen analysis gets done within the entire sequence of events that go into a fertility journey, and it's like, oh yeah, cool, he's fine. And then lo and behold, we do a little bit more digging, and these things more often than not get found. Oh, it's so so frustrating, isn't it? But you know, even you had that reaction as well. It can't be me.

SPEAKER_02 30:17

No, but and I and I I look back now and I think, you foolish man, you foolish I feel silly like a boy, you foolish boy, because now obviously I'm kind of in this space, you know, with doing what we're doing, and I'm actually having conversations with we're having conversations with all sorts of people, whether it's with the clinics or with people going through it, and we're finding this across the board that men don't only, and this is not all men, I'm not generalizing, but men in ja men don't know enough about this, and even when and I've I've heard many cases on on this front, even when men are persuaded, not persuaded, but encouraged by their other half to go and get a test or do this test, they're actually saying no, they're refusing to do it. You've got these women who are doing everything they can, they're on 15 different supplements, they've stopped drinking this and they've stopped eating that, and they've been for they've had a laparoscopy, they've had like all the high causes, all these things that you've got to do, and still men are going, nah, nah, no, it's it's it's not me, and just refusing to go and do tests, and you know, let's be honest, the lads' tests are pretty easy in terms of what we've got to do, right? We haven't got to do much um in terms of what you ladies have to go through, and I've seen it with my eyes. Um that's that needs to change, Jen, in my opinion. That really needs to change, and I'm not blaming men, I'm blaming the way we've we've got like this it's this society that we live in that we've been brought up, you know, even if you look back 50 years, 50 years, even, it's not even that long. It was always the women's fault, it was never the men's fault, you know. But now we've got the information, we've got access to technology, and I feel like we've got all that stuff, but when it comes to the educational side of things and the information, that isn't getting across to the lads in a way that it should do. And so I'm gonna bang that drum as much as I can, and I really want to try and make some progress in the male fertility side of the conversation because I think it's I think it's lacking massively.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

It is, and thank you. And keep banging that drum and shouting because we need it as much as possible. But I would love to I wanted to ask you on that as well. You know, I I hear from a lot of women that they struggle to get their partners on board with the all right, we need to make some lifestyle changes. And not all the couples are struggling in this way, but a lot of the time it's like, okay, well, like you said, I'm the woman is doing the 15 supplements and cutting out drinking and all the things. How can what would it because what sort of advice would you give to a woman whose partner isn't really on board? Like if if if it was presented to you that you know perhaps you needed to do this, that, and the other, and you were feeling resistant, like how can we start to get men to get it?

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Oh, that's a hard question. Put me on the spot there.

SPEAKER_02 33:23

And I I'll I'll I'll try and I'll try and answer it as best I can. But um, just to give you an understanding of my journey, because that might maybe lead me on to the answer. As I mentioned previously, my opinion on this was that it definitely can't be me. It was like a um, it was a reflex that it's it's not impossible, but surely it's not me. It was like this natural uh feeling. And it wasn't until Eleanor came to me and said, Ian said you should get this test, and I looked at the test, and she put it in front of me, and she really kind of she held my hand. I think that's maybe the answer. I think for women listening to this, if your other halves aren't being too um bullish on the on the test side of things or or taking ownership of their fertility health, especially when it comes to lifestyle change, you know, things like low alcohol intake or processed foods, energy drinks, you know, certain proteins or all these things. Um I think I think it's their it's it's not their job or their duty, but if they really want to push that side of things, they need to take the lead. They need to be the leader. Because when it came to Eleanor, she led this whole thing. She led me to the DNA frag. She then led me through that DNA fragmentation test to do the extra test where I found the varicose ill. She was a she was, if I think about it in terms of the diagnosis, she was the leader. She really led the way. She went down all the rabbit holes, she was in all the groups, she was in all the apps, she was having all the conversations, doing all the consultations on Zoom and in person going to the clinics. She did all of that, and she really she uh she made me realize that it is a team effort. I think with all that this whole team talk that I'm talking about now and this team sport, um, it really does come down to being a team. And I suppose if you're not a team, you're gonna struggle with this. So I I I I actually said this as well a few times that IVF or infertility in general can either it really is gonna make or break you. And I've had several friends who broke up during this journey because they actually found out once we got into the weeds of this that they weren't a team, and it really you really find someone's you fight, you see someone's true colours when you're going down this, you've got to you've got to stick together. So, yeah, for women, I would say take the lead role. Take the lead role, do the research yourself and educate them, educate your lads on on what they what they could do. Because at the end of the day, look at tests to test, they don't have to go do any of the stuff that the women are doing, really, in terms of you know, even my up my operation was horrendous for the varicose seal. I had to have it embolized, and it does feel like you're getting kicked in the nuts for for 40 minutes, um, which isn't nice. But in terms of the tests, the tests are, you know, we've got to do one job. I won't mention what it is, but it's one job. And even if you have to get bloods, it's it's not a lot of work. And I think if you are really, really die hard wanting a family, I think it's the least that you can do as a as a as a man is to contribute to that side of things. So, yeah, ladies, take the lead. Take the lead and hold the hands. We need it.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

Thank you. And it is such a big mental load, isn't it? But I I find this frustrating that women do have to take the lead, but who else is gonna do it? The doctors aren't doing it, you know, society isn't doing it. Our parents, you know, can you imagine our dads to have absolutely not like having this conversation? It does have to come from somewhere. So thank you. I appreciate you being so vulnerable about the fact that you were sort of resistant to thinking it was potentially a problem for you and then being so open to it afterwards. I think that a lot of men will go on that same journey, and it's nice to hear it from someone else.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

I would love to so you go. Sorry, I hope so. Um I mean, even in some appointments, it wasn't even like for example, our first round of IVF, and I won't mention the clinic because it wasn't the best experience in the end. And when we found out later, after two rounds of IVF, that Eleanor had PCOS and endometriosis. Yeah, this is after we spent tens of thousands of pounds and had two losses, that these things were even mentioned. They weren't even mentioned, and when it came to me, semen analysis, results are there, low morphology, but you only need one sperm. And we're gonna do ICSE anyway, so we're gonna choose the sperm, don't worry about it. Nothing. And there, you're right, what you said there. Let's I want to touch upon that again. The clinics, or whether it's in the UK, NHS, or private, they are, I would say they just need to do a little bit more work on the investigation side, and not even just saying you need to do the investigation, actually, just telling people or letting people know what is available. Like, even just the simple conversation of have you done this? Did you know? Like a few did you know's? Did you know that male DNA fragmentation can be a problem? Did you know that polystystic ovaries, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? Just a few little pointers, those two or three things could have saved us. We're not going to look back because we've got our little miracle now, and I don't like to look back that that much um and dwell on it. I mean, I look back, but not dwell on it. But a couple of conversations with a clinic at the start could have helped massively. But the thing is, you're right, you're absolutely right. And that those conversations aren't happening, and I hope they do more in the future, but because they're not, the women in this in this team need to take the lead a little bit more. But also, um, and I'm um that is a good question, but I think as men, we need to also take more responsibility for our side of this. It is 50-50, and it's becoming more apparent now that it really is a 50-50 um infertility problem. So I hope a clip of this gets out and we can get some lads to take take a little bit more ownership of their side of things.

SPEAKER_00 39:45

I wish that was an isolated story. I hear that all the time. That and myself as well. Like we had such minimal testing done before we were thrown into a round of IVF, which wasn't successful. And it's just okay, well, this is the only tool we have. Let's just do that. It doesn't matter if it doesn't work, we can just do it again at the attitude sometimes. And you're right, not all clinics, but there are a lot of rounds, sadly, that will do this. Jackie, I would love to talk about a Luma. Can you tell me what what was the catalyst for bringing well, first of all, what is it? And how did it all come about?

SPEAKER_02 40:21

Okay, I'll start from the beginning. So we, as I mentioned, we started posting our story online in around early 2025, when we when we got pregnant, and we started I said again, trying to come back to ourselves and kind of find out who we were. But we also realized there was a big problem in this in this fertility space, and we wanted to try and fix it. That that problem of isolation for both men, women, and the we call it the team, right? Because you are a team. So we started these conversations online, and we're getting really early on. We had like millions of views on our on our videos, and we're like, whoa, this is ridiculous. Like, we we didn't expect it, we just wanted to, if we could help a few people, that would be great. But the traction was really good. So we're like, oh, okay, let's try and build something that can help people. The reason we started doing this from one of the catalysts was Eleanor had been on several fertility apps. I'm not going to mention the names, there's loads of them, but she'd been on maybe four or five, and she'd left them all because she found that it was quite a toxic environment. She never resonated with the um the apps are beautifully like designed and everything looks great, but in terms of what she was trying to get, in terms of value, she wasn't getting that. She was actually coming away worse, whether it was like negative uh dialogue in there or you know, women bitching about their own half. It was just loads of stuff. She wasn't really getting it, right? What she wanted. And then for my side of things, as I mentioned, there wasn't really anything for men. There's no, there wasn't really any male-focused apps or whatever. So why don't we do something for everyone? So we started this online community on on a third-party, can't remember what it was. It was called WAP, I think. It was like an online thing where you can just set up a space and people can just join with an email address. What we found is this is back in August last year, what we found is because you had to go in, you had to type, and your name came up and your email came up, or we can't remember what it was, it was one or the other, the people weren't interacting. And we found that because we were putting polls up of like questions, and we're getting loads of people going on these polls and you know answering the questions. But when it came to us trying to start conversations in there, it was non-existent, and there's only maybe three or four people who were really constantly back and forth. And then we started getting infiltrated with people trying to sell trading courses and oh, you can make a million quid over overnight. And we're like, right, this isn't gonna work. So we took that down back to the drawing board. We said, right, if we're gonna do this, let's do it properly, let's build an app where we have full control over everything. So we wanted to integrate four main parts which we found useful. Um, so those four parts we we narrowed it down. The first one was community spaces. So each part of this fertility conversation um or part of the journey is a different is a different conversation. Sorry. So you've got trying to conceive, which is a general one, you've got um IVF and treatment, you've got the other one I'm really focused on is male fertility, the male conversation. Um, you've got uh fertility preservation, people who are just trying to freeze eggs because maybe they haven't found their other half, or freeze embryos, um, miscarriage, you've got all these different conversations. And if you're going into groups and everyone's talking about everything, then there's not really any direction. So we're like, why don't we create these groups? But then within the groups, you can then connect with someone. So if you've if you're in a conversation with someone saying after loss, which is a miscarriage group, you can then message that person privately and take that conversation offline. Um so you can have that conversation um off like away from the group. Now A key part of this is what we found in that first part was people didn't want to speak because their name was there and it said their name or said their handle or the email. So we integrated an anonymous um uh anonymous tab. So when you come to the app, you can either sign up as anonymous, or you when you're in the app, if you want to go anonymous, you can just go into the settings and tab, toggle the anonymous tab. And when you go into the group, you can just type whatever you want, you can say whatever you want, and no one will know who it is. The uptake on that has been brilliant, but I'll come on back to that in a second. The other part of this is the mind space section. So Eleanor and I both found a lot of use in guided meditations and affirmation tracks. Eleanor was I had like a YouTube playlist of all these different ones where she was like going in the bath and she'd listen to one, or when she was in the car, she'd listen to one. You know, even on the way to the clinic, she'd have one going in on the car radio, the car stereo, which is basically about talking about implantation, all these things, really trying to help you with just the psychological element of this is huge. So we created that, we scripted and recorded our own guided meditations and affirmations. And then the toolkit, which is the the other part. Eleanor, again, Eleanor is the leader in this, but she downloaded about four million PDFs from Etsy. She downloaded courses, all these things she found online, and she found the best bits, recreated it herself, and has created our own toolkit on there. So it could be anything from emotional journals to appointment planners, questions to ask at your next appointment, all these things. So we've got all that in one space, and it's an MVP at the moment, it's a minimum viable product that we've kind of built together because we've we've self-funded everything so far, and we've built whatever we could with the money that we've had, and essentially that's what it is now. So we're very early in the in the in the project, we launched it, we haven't launched it. We launched a beta test phase about six weeks ago, five weeks ago. We've got about 70 or 80 people on there at the moment, and it's a beautiful community. Everyone's been really supportive, everyone's been really, I'm not going to use the word positive because it's obviously a very negative situation that everyone's in, but everyone's helping each other and leaning on each other, and that's what we want. Even in our community guidelines, when you come on, we're very specific about the sort of environment and the energy we're trying to create, which is a very supportive one. We we we don't want we don't really want to attract the the negativity and the you know um the the things that Eleanor experienced in the other apps she's she's tried. So we that's essentially what it is. We've we've created an app. We are very early in the process, but the the early feedback has been brilliant. We are now having conversations with all the people who are on the app. We've got we're basically talking about their journeys, what it's looked like for them. Because this is another thing, Jen. What we've realized is our journey is one thing, and we built this based on our journey, but now we're speaking to tens of other people, men and women as well, and we're realize that the emotions are very similar, but the journey to get to where they are, where they where they want to go is so different. With every single call that we've done with these amazing people who are currently testing the app, the stories are so vast, and we can relate to them, but the things that they need and they want or would like to see in the app are different to what we not different, but maybe slightly um slightly they could do with some tweaks or some things maybe need to be added or some things taken out. So anyway, that's what a luma is, and what we want to be is we want we want to build um the fertility community that we we were missing when we were doing it, but at the same time, we know there's a there's a lot of these sort of things out there. We're trying to be different in a way that we want to support the whole team, and when we say the whole team, I've mentioned the people going through it. So let's just say a male and female couple, but then you've also got everything else around them. So you've got friends and family who are supporting them. They don't know what to say. We've created a group which is for friends and family only. So friends and family who are supporting their loved ones or you know, sons, daughters, whatever, they can go in there or colleagues, they can go in there and talk to each other and they can have a conversation with each other. We've got groups, you've got you know the whole ecosystem around them, friends, family, colleagues. Everyone's affected in some way, and we want to try and create a space which is which is um which is that safe, supportive community for everyone. Um, so that's kind of that's what a Luma is in a five-minute nutshell.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

And what a beautiful thing you guys have created after such a difficult and traumatic journey to have something that's I mean, obviously you have your beautiful little boy, but to to take your experiences and to make others who are still on their journey feel more supported and less alone is incredible, Jackie. You should be so, so proud of everything you guys have done. How can people learn more about Illuma? So if they think it sounds amazing and they want to jump in, are you taking other people as test guinea pigs at the moment, or how can they learn a bit more about it?

SPEAKER_02 49:19

Well, yeah, so um, for starters, you can find us on um all the social media platforms, TikTok, Instagram, and at Aluma Fertility. At the moment, we've got a small group in there, we're gonna be testing for another three or four weeks, and we are gonna be continuing these test groups. So I'm gonna be in the next week or two. Actually, no, this is gonna be coming out a little bit later. So if you head over to our social media now, we will have a link there to sign up to be one of our testers. We would love to have you there. Um, the more the merrier, because the more feedback we get, the more we can create this app for you or for people who are gonna be in your shoes maybe in a year or two years. We also have a podcast which we launched last year, and that's essentially a kind of no like how do I describe it? We're trying to create a conversation around fertility which is real, which is real people speaking to real humans going through it or who've been through it and come out the other side. We're trying to speak to, or we are speaking to nutritionists, dietitians, um, we had we had acupuncturists, anyone who's we've found to be useful, or people who've come to us who've got some value, all we're trying to do with everything, everything we're trying to do is we're trying to create value for people who are in this. So our podcast is called No Straight Lines, and it's available on YouTube, on Spotify, all the platforms. But yeah, in terms of the app launch, the official launch, we don't know when that's going to be, but right now, if you'd like to test the app, please head over to our social medias and just check our link tree on our profile. You can sign up there, and uh we'd love to have you have you on the app to test it out and give us some feedback.

SPEAKER_00 51:08

Amazing, Jackie. I will link up all of your socials just so people can just scroll down and click and have jump straight to it. So we will do that. As we finish up, I want to ask you what is the one thing that you wish someone had told you at the very start of this whole journey?

SPEAKER_01 51:26

Oh, you've got come with 12 questions today, Jen. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 51:30

So if I had to put my finger on one thing, I would just come back to the male fertility conversation, which is that I wish someone had told me that you are responsible as well. This is not just on Eleanor, this is a team effort because it did take me some time to realize that. And I think you know, going back to what I've said before about those feelings that I had when I had that DNA fragmentation result, and I was just distraught. I feel like I would have been able to handle those emotions a little bit better if I had understood at the start or had kind of had some responsibility. It was that feeling of being responsible when I didn't think I was, was so overwhelming that it probably affected me and Ellen's relationship for a while. I think I think it's I mean, I don't I don't know if I was depressed, but I felt like people describe depression. I think I was probably going through some sort of depression at the time. And I think if someone had told me that early on that this is this is a two-way street and you're also responsible, I think I would have been able to do some things earlier. I might have taken some more responsibility on the research. I might have been able to help Eleanor when it came to going down all these routes and investigations because she did everything. And I do feel I do feel guilty for that still. Um, but yeah, I think someone, someone, I wish someone had told me that this is a team method as well.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

And let's hope that every man who comes across this, if they're going to take one thing from this podcast, let it be that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

Fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_00 53:13

Jackie, thank you for being so open about everything that you've been through and for making other men feel less alone in this whole space. I think it's incredibly valuable what you and Eleanor have put together. So I want to say thank you again just for being here and sharing your story and everything that has gone along with it. So big, big thank you from me.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Oh no, Jen, thank you so much for having me. I think what you're doing is fantastic. I I'm still following, even though I'm not in the um the thick of it now. I I love what you're doing. And I think what you do is create a lot of value for people and you really bring the barriers down for others who are out there seeing a lot of a lot of um you know, a lot of conflict and information. And you you bring it, you bring it again what we're trying to do. You bring a human element to this because it's not it, it's it is obviously very clinical, but you bring that human aspect to this, which I think is missing. So yeah, thank you again for having me. It's been fantastic to speak to you probably for a full hour uninterrupted. And yeah, um, I'm sure we'll be seeing much more of each other in the future.

SPEAKER_00 54:20

I look forward to it, Jackie. Thank you so, so much. Thank you so much for listening right to the end of this episode. Now, this is one that I think we really need to share with as many people as possible, because I cannot remember a single person that my husband spoke to over all of the years that we were struggling through infertility in IVF. And it would have been so much easier for him to see men speaking about this topic so openly, just like Jackie did today. Next week on the podcast, we are diving into this concept of being able to trust your body again after lost infertility treatment cycles that haven't been successful. And how do you begin to believe that your body is actually capable of bringing your baby home? So I can't wait to have you back next week for that episode. But until then, I am sending you all of my wishes as you continue your own journey to fertility.