97. Leadership Lessons with Jen WIlkin

In this episode, Amanda and Corinne welcome Jen Wilkin for a conversation about leadership, ministry, and faithful discipleship. Jen shares wisdom from more than 30 years of ministry, reminding women in ministry and emerging leaders that lasting faithfulness is built through humility, obedience, and character. 

Jen also reflects on Joshua and the courage it takes to trust God in seasons of challenge and opportunity. Together, they talk about dying to self, leading with integrity, and trusting God to shape every season. 

They also talk about Jen’s new book, Dust to Dust, and the hope Scripture offers as we think about aging, beauty, and the body. Listen in for a steady reminder to receive every season with grace, purpose, and confidence in God’s faithful work. 

SHOW LINKS:

• Dust to Dust: Aging Wisely in an Anti-Aging World by Jen Wilkin 
• Jen Wilkin’s Official Website 
• Resources from Jen Wilkin 
• Joshua: 10 Week Bible Study
• Joshua 1 
• Joshua 24 
• Judges 21:25 
• James 3:5-10 
• Proverbs 18:21 
• Luke 9:23 
• Ephesians 6:12 
• Colossians 3:5  

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Transcript

Season Kickoff And Guest Welcome

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Welcome back to His Glory Her Good, a podcast for women in student ministry. We are your hosts. I am Amanda. And I'm Corinne. And we are very excited. This is our 10th season of getting to do His Glory Her Good. I mean, it's been a full three years of just putting our yes on the table. And you guys keep listening. So thank you for listening. Thank you for showing up. We try just to be a good steward of just the conversations that we have here, just based on the things that we're listening and learning. And I know a lot of you are coming off a crazy summer. I hope that like you're not just feeling like burnt out, like ready to throw in the towel, but there's actually like an excitement for the fall ahead. And that there's a, I don't know, just a desire to grow. And the way that we wanted to kick this off, we are so honored to have the one and only Jen Wilken here to join us today to kind of just dive into this idea of like, how do I grow as a leader? Jen, you are uh welcome to the His Glory Her Good podcast, first of all. Thank you so much. Um, it is an honor. But also, like, Jen, you have been doing ministry for a while. You are somebody that for those of us who are newer, younger in the faith, younger in our callings in ministry, like you are somebody that we really have looked up to and said, man, like I'm not just like, okay, cool. Jen has a platform, Jen's written books, but like somebody who knows God's word, who like the love of God overflows, but also you also have a good time still. Like you're not, you're not too you're not too jaded. Like you're not just over here, like with like the grumpy arms of just like we're doing it because we have to do it. No, you still love it. Yeah. And so I feel like we have a lot to learn. And you have um written, I mean, I don't even what is your Bible study count right now? Do you have a number? I don't know. It's you're like, I don't even care.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I don't remember at this point. But I, you know, I'm not through all 66 books yet, so we're not done. I love that.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

So but just this year, just this year, you've had Josh Joshua and Judges. Okay. This will come out in January. Yep. And so there's a lot happening. Um, and so we're very excited just to get to glean from just what God's really revealing to you right now. Um, in your own study, you have a children's book coming out, right? And you have another book um uh about aging, dust to dust. So we're all very excited about. Uh, so there's just like a lot of wisdom. We just want to spend some time of like, okay, Jenna Wilken, what would you teach this younger generation? What where are the things that you got right? What are the things you got wrong? So, to start, would you just tell us a little bit about who you are right now, um, where you're at, what your family's like, and then we'll kind of look back of like, where did you even get your start in

Jen Wilkin’s Family And Ministry Path

SPEAKER_00 2:50

ministry?

SPEAKER_02 2:50

Okay, so I'm 57 years old. My husband and I just celebrated our 33rd anniversary. Um, we have five children, four who are biological children, and then a fifth who came into our family a little later, but we count her as a full, full sibling. And um, they are all grown. So their ages are 30, 29, 29, 28, and 26. The four biological kids, four and four years, and then we threw in an extra one right in the middle. Um, so everyone's, you know, in a in a stage of life where they're um getting married, getting into their careers, all that kind of stuff. And uh, I can't even believe I'm saying this. But uh only two of the cup married couples uh have produced seven grandchildren. So I have seven grandchildren, and I am 57 years old. I am I bet you were an what's your grandma name? Okay, what's your grandma name? Uh you would never guess it because I'm a lover of irony, and so I chose it accordingly. Okay. My grandma name is sugar. Oh, I love rain, and my kids hated it. Like, they were like, you can't be sugar. And I'm like, I can be whatever I want. That's right. You're not, they go, mom, you're not sweet. And I was like, Oh, I'm gonna be sweet with your kids. Oh, yeah. Oh, grandkids the sugar great you turned out, but you just mm-hmm. So Henry the oldest, he calls me Suggs. Oh my kick sugs window. That's amazing. I would eat that up. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 4:22

That's like I'm like, who didn't want to hang out with sugar? Exactly. I I love it. Okay, so when you have how long have you would say, like, have you been in ministry, like of various kinds and shapes and forms?

SPEAKER_02 4:34

You know how like I don't know. Some people like discern a calling and they can they have a date of when they started in ministry. And for me, that's all hindsight. And so I would say I was always doing ministry of some kind because I'm the person who shows up at the church and goes, well, really at any organization and goes, Oh, I see a need here and I think I can help, right? Yeah. So um I was telling you guys before we got started that I met my husband. We actually met in class, but immediately started serving at a church together in student ministry. Um, and we served in student ministry all the way through um the our other our remaining time in college and then through the um early years of our marriage. And then from there, I got invited to start doing things in women's spaces. And before I knew it, you know, I was 15 years into serving in the local church. Um basically, you know, I was a stay-at-home mom at the point that um I realized our church didn't have a paid staff member to oversee the women's ministry and the women's ministry. The church was just too big. It was like the church had grown and they weren't bad people. It just they weren't hadn't caught up to where they were. Yeah, you know. And um, so I advocated for um someone to be paid. And, you know, the guy who I went and met with the executive pastor, I had taught both of his daughters in Sunday school. And he's like, Well, why don't you do it? You're the one who seems to care about us.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

So I'm like, that's how all of us get started.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah. And I'm like, but I have four children, four and under. So unemployable. And he was so far ahead of his time because he was just like, Yeah, but you're the person. Like, I can tell you're the one who really cares about this. And so we're gonna make it work. Wow. According to where you are. I I it still blows my mind. I mean, this would have been in 1990 uh 2000. That's amazing. 99, 2000. And so um, he was also a dad of girls. So maybe not so surprising. Sure. Uh yeah. And and then, you know, I always like to pop quiz people and say, how many years of my now 30 years of ministry do you think that I was in paid full-time vocational ministry in a local church? Like, what would you say? Full-time paid, like with benefits, how many years out of a 30-year quote, career do you think I had? 10. Five. Wow. Yeah. And some of that is, you know, because when you're a woman in ministry and you have family concerns pulling on you, you actually often opt into part-time, even though you know you might even be working full-time. I'm correct. Sure. Because you need your mental game to work to where you can go, okay, I'm gonna turn off work and now. And so that was, I don't want to say that the local church hadn't offered me full-time for all of that time. Um but I was just slow to take it on because I mean, it took my my boss at the time, JT, saying to me, I am not trying to ask you to do more work. I'm trying to pay you for the work you're already doing. That's amazing. So I'm like, oh, yeah, okay, fine. I guess that's fine. All right. And Jeff is like, get the benefits of more management out there underwriting Jan Wilken Ministries.com for you know 30 years. So anyway, it was funny how it all played out.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

That's amazing.

Early Ministry Missteps And Longevity

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Well, I think so. Some we'll end our episode with a looking back question, but I love that this conversation with you lets us do a lot of looking back because I think we get to hear from a trusted voice who's been in it. And I think part of your trustworthiness is like your longevity in ministry. And I would say, what would you say, like looking back on like your start to ministry, even like in staff? What are the things you would go? Would you go back and tell yourself to do anything different, to like view ministry differently, your role? Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

I would say in the early years, I so so a little uh context for me, grew up with four brothers. Wow. Um four brothers who, you know, we fought it out plenty. Um, and then um, but also they respected my views. We had, you know, I was treated as an equal with them. Uh, so wonderful dad who valued my ideas, thought I had important things to say, uh, marry a guy who's like my dad and that, you know. And so for me, the first place that I ever ran into weirdness around uh men was in the church, you know, where it was like, oh, you're actually not treating me the same way that these other men who have been so important in my life have done. And I have to figure out why, and then I have to navigate all of that, and which was fine. But I will say in the early years, I didn't see some of the landmines coming because I had such a positive life-giving experience of relationships with guys. In fact, when I met Jeff, we didn't start dating, we were really good friends for a year. Um, because I just, you know, the friend zone was was my sweet and had always enjoyed friendships with men. Yeah. Um, or with guys, you know, and and it was a feature, not a bug. And so to get into a a sort of a Christian space where those those relationships were uh frowned upon or even forbidden was really disorienting for me. And uh I made some missteps because I think early on I want to be like, but it shouldn't be like that. So therefore I'm just gonna operate however I want. And that was immaturity speaking, you know, you have to, you do have to think about um the context that you're in. And and I would call it bearing with the weaker brother. I do think that the ideal that scripture presents us with is brothers and sisters, and that's what the local church should look like and we should work to make it look that way, but it doesn't mean that we just pulldoze forward uh unthinkingly. And so I think in the early years, I was not as um careful. You talked about longevity. One of the keys to longevity is dying to self over and over again. It just is. And and I think I needed to die to self around the issue of I'm gonna fix this and I'm gonna fix it sooner rather than later. Um, now I would say it's not gonna be fixed in my lifetime, but hopefully I've been able to help. Um, and the reason if I've been able to contribute anything to the conversation around the family of God, the church is the family of God, it has been more because of the times I have held my tongue than because of the times I've spoken. It was a matter of choosing the moment, choosing the room. And that's hard. It's just something you don't, you're you're not gonna do it right all the time. So, like if someone's listening to this and they're like, I have screwed this up already, you're gonna be okay. Just learn, take good notes, keep moving forward. And, you know, that's where I think discouragement can come in, is like where you're like, I screwed this up on a lot of levels. There's a lot of ways we can screw things up. And uh the second that your success or failure in the way you're doing ministry becomes about you is when jadedness and discouragement are all going to come in. You always have to remember, particularly as a woman in ministry, it's not about whether I self-actualize in this role. It's about whether the women who I'm representing in this space who don't even know they need me in this room are are being moved more into position to be um full members of the family of God, the way that the Lord designed it to be. And then you're able to go, okay. So I I can't, I don't have time to get my feelings hurt.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

That's so good. So good.

Why Study Joshua And Judges

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Okay. Um, so Joshua, tell us a little bit about your time studying the book of Joshua. How do you just housekeeping? Uh, how do you decide which book of the Bible you want to write on? Because it's not you've already written on Revelation, so we know you're not writing in order. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

No. And I wish I, I, you know, I wish, I mean, I think this is pretty typical of someone who just kind of gets thrown into local church ministry and you're just trying to do the next thing in front of you. Yeah. I didn't have um either the on-ramp or the opportunity to organize things as neatly as I would in hindsight. Yeah. Uh, but in my time in the local church doing Bible studies, we would alternate Old Testament, New Testament, one year and the new. And and the Joshua and the Judges study, actually, I wrote 11 or 12 years ago and taught. And so, in fact, everything except the revelation study was something that I had taught in the local church and then ended up publishing. That's really something I taught in my in my dining room before I that's a whole that's a whole podcast episode to talk about in and of itself. Yeah. Oh, I will never, never, never publish a curriculum that has not actually been used. That's so cool. And that's a really if you're wondering how to choose a good curriculum, that's a question you should ask before you buy one. It's really good. So good. So anyway, I um the Joshua and the Judges study were done written as a pair. Okay. We started, we know we started in September with Joshua, and then in January did we did judges because they really do go together. Yeah. Um, one is about perfect obedience, and one is about a spiral into complete disobedience. And um, the proximity that they have to each other is something we need to pay attention to. That it doesn't take long for uh people to forget the faithfulness of God to creation and to live uh according to what is right in their own eyes. And so um Joshua was a friend saying to me, you know, this book's about the right length. Why don't you do this one? And I'm like, oh great, how hard could that be? And then we get into land allotments, and I'm like, I hate your gut. How am I supposed to stand out and think it's interesting? Uh but it is interesting. It's all it's, you know, anytime I've wandered into, oh, this will fit into a semester and then found out it was going to be one heck of a semester. The Lord has shown me that the truth that all scriptures, God breathe and profitable in ways that I couldn't have anticipated. Um, so that would be what I would say is true of Joshua and Judges. Not everybody is running there to study those books. Okay. That is another big reason that I choose books that I do is I want to drag you to places that make you uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

Love it. Uh, as you should. Please keep doing it. Um, so looking at the book of Joshua, I think that there's so many lessons as a young leader that we've learned from the life of Joshua that we like to focus on. Um, that Joshua needed to cur to be courageous. But can you help us kind of talk a little bit more of just the actual lessons that you saw through the book of Joshua? That like if you could pick maybe the two like most pointed lessons that we can see and how like that applies to us as young leaders, as people who are like, man, I want to be uh, you know, remembered for my call-aid or be obedient to Jesus, you know, like what would you say are the lessons from Joshua and like how do we, how does it apply to our lives?

Joshua’s Obedience And Real Leadership

SPEAKER_00 15:03

And does it apply to our lives? Well, it certainly applies.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

I think it's a secondary application. Obviously, Joshua is pointing us toward the true and better Joshua, who is Jesus. And so we never wanted to still Joshua down to a leadership course, although many have done it. Correct. Uh so I will indulge the question, but I do want to make sure that listeners understand that there is way more to this book than does Joshua a good leader or not. And I know you guys know that, but just for our listeners. And um, and so when you look at Joshua, he he's fascinating to me because um in the in the whole story of Bible, you first you have Moses, who is the first leader, and then you have Joshua, who's the second leader. And Moses is he's an intercessor, he's a um, he's a he's he's faithful, he's not a military leader. You know, I mean, he that's what Joshua ends up taking on that role for him. Um, you could describe Moses as gentle and lowly, uh, to borrow from a phrase that I know a lot of people are familiar with right now. And you would describe Joshua as a warrior king. Okay. So when you track that onto the meta-narrative of scripture, in many ways, Moses shows us Jesus' first coming and Joshua shows us Jesus' second coming. Um, now, the way that Joshua leads the nation of Israel is different than the way that Moses does because Israel is in a different time period. Like this, something new is happening. They're actually taking, laying hold of the promises of God. So I would say that the fulfillment of the Abrahamic covenant comes to pass under Joshua's leadership. They inherit the land. Um, they have not yet become a light to the name, to all the nations and to the end of the earth, but everything is set in place by the end of the book for that to happen, which is why you don't really want to study Judges because it's a big bummer. Yeah. Um, but Joshua illustrates for us uh perfect obedience, uh, immediate obedience, uh, and also uh like measured obedience in the sense that we forget he was born into slavery in Egypt. He uh lives through the Exodus period, so witnesses the plagues, all of that, um, sees God's faithfulness in the wilderness, sees the law given on Sinai, um, is probably one of the authors of the first five books, you know, probably helped Moses record the first five books of the Bible. Um, and then um comes into his leadership because Moses failed. Like Moses can't take them into the promised land because he had a bad day in the wilderness. Yeah. And so imagine, like, imagine this person who's been your mentor for all of these years, and he got one strike, and you're out in terms of actually entering into the promised land. Uh, in fact, do you know the first place in scripture uh that Moses actually sees the promised land, a lot of people say, Where is it the transfiguration? That's fun. Yeah, we see I never even thought about that. Isn't that fascinating? Yeah. And so imagine Joshua who and he's also Joshua and Caleb are the two who give the good report. Like they're the two old guys when when Joshua takes leadership, right? Because it it says that everybody who sinned and and didn't have faith has died. So you got these two old guys who and Caleb's like, I want the giants. Give me the place where the giants were, I want to conquer that, you know. And Joshua is the same way. It's like, we told you suckers 40 years ago, yeah, that the Lord was sufficient, and now we're gonna show you. And so I think that in itself is a huge, if you wanted to sell a leadership lesson, it's Joshua and Caleb did not forget what everybody else forgot. They remembered the faithfulness of God to all generations. They understood they were in a timeline that started before their life and then extended beyond their life. Yeah. And they they behaved accordingly. And um, so I think when we're in leadership, we feel like, well, my during my lifetime, my lifetime is the most significant time. I have to make this count more than anybody else for the kingdom of God. And it's like, no, no, no, do your part, like be faithful to borrow a phrase, to be faithful and forgotten. Um ironically, Joshua is not forgotten. And so, um, and I think his memory is a blessing to borrow from the the Jewish way of speaking of the dead. And and we should we should want that. We should want our memory to be a blessing. Uh, and so when you think about yourself as a leader, ask, am I quick to do what is the obvious right thing to do in front of me? Am I rightly measured in uh when wisdom needs to be applied to a situation? Um, but do I demonstrate that everything rests in the hands of God, that God will do what he has said he's going to do? Because one of the things you see happen all through the book of Joshua is that God will say, I have given them into your hands over and over. He doesn't say, I will, he says, I have. Joshua believed that. Yeah. Um now I think when we want to map that onto our how do we apply that today? Like, does that mean I should have a Canaanite conquest in my neighborhood? Yeah, God gave this to me, Jen. I'm gonna also come back. Right, right. Um, but what what does the New Testament tell us is that we do not war against flesh and blood. Um, and then what does it say that we're supposed to put to death? Put to death therefore all immorality. And so when you want to map Joshua's leadership, like we want leadership to be about um what we contribute, contribution, um, and it's really about character. It's not that it's not about contribution, it's just the contribution is the overflow of character. And so are you actively getting up each day and waging holy war against the sin that still is harbored in your own heart? Yeah. Um, because when you do, you are leading like Joshua.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

That's good. Uh that's just so many good things, and I'm very thankful that you're the one speaking into this. I think it might actually be unpack

Hope For Young Leaders And Warnings

SPEAKER_01 21:07

this further. But as you're talking to primarily a group of girls that maybe are in a more beginning stage of like their ministry, what as you look at this generation coming up what leading in the church, what makes you really hopeful for them? And how would you caution them?

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Uh, I would say I'm hopeful because there's a seriousness that I think has not been um present in maybe the last 40 years. Um, there's an earnestness. The secular project is largely failing in the West. And so it's a it's I think we're on the doorstep of a golden age of outreach and ministry, uh, particularly among students and children. Um so that all gives me a lot of hope. And I think that they I do see that the I mean, the 20 and 30 year olds that I know are not, they're not jaded. Um, they're way less dumb about social media than my generation. This generation is an embarrassment. Um like I saw a quote the other day that said, um, we that my generation kept kids off of TV to prevent happening to them exactly what we then did to ourselves with our phones and social media. And I'm like, yikes, that uh never a truer word. And so I think there is a uh uh a digital native wisdom that they carry that is going to shape the way forward. I even with AI, I just think they have they have the right uh suspicions around all of that. They have good instincts and um that they are not jaded. I think they're they're they're optimistic. Um I think they the things that I would be um I think low-level concerned about would be the influence of the of um uh the therapeutic to see church as a place that makes you feel predominantly that that shapes your feelings. Uh so one of the ways that this can show up is I hear a lot of talk about Jesus removing guilt and shame. Uh we sing that, we say that a lot, and that's actually true that that that that does happen, but that is a secondary truth that he removes uh sin. Yeah. He he, you know, it's he he didn't Jesus doesn't save you to make you feel better. Yeah. Um and in fact, a lot of the sanctification process doesn't feel great, guys. Uh putting to death sin, not great, hard work. Yeah. He's taking up your cross and and following daily. And so um I think that I would hope that this younger generation would uh I actually I think they like to rise to a challenge. And um, I'm I'm interested to see a renewed vision for sanctification as good hard work play itself out in their lives, that they wouldn't be content to have their faith only be a feeling. Um, and that it would be not about individual um growth or um uh self-realization. Um, that they would they would fully throw off the myth of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ as the highest stated goal of the gospel. Yeah. That you do have that, but that is also a thing that isn't actually real because to be saved into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is to be saved into the family of God. Yeah. And if I see any hunger among um younger people, it's they want to be connected to something that's transcendent. Well, the church is built for that. Yeah. And it's got shock absorbers of 2,000 years to get you for the word. Um, so I'm eager to see how that might look.

SPEAKER_00 24:48

That's cool. Me too. Yeah.

Dust To Dust And A Theology Of Aging

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Um, okay, something um before we wrap up, I do want to address this brand new book, Dust to Dust. Yes. Yeah. It I like, I mean, it's so in a I first of all, I had to delete social media for my phone in the spring because I was tired of getting Ozimpic ads to me every single day. Like it's just uh believe my algorithm. Oh I am I can't even imagine. Um, but you created this book. What a timely piece is coming out. Where where did you feel the Lord, I guess, inclining you to write this? Because this is one of those studies that I'm like, yes, thankfully. Where has this been? Uh and we are no one's talking about no, I it's crazy. And so here you are, and everyone's like, oh, thank God. Um, and I feel that like it's like it's like a deep breath, truly, of feeling, okay, there's like some hope of like I don't have to just like, you know, there's some like what is it, anti-cultural. Yeah, like there's it's just another option.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

And I think maybe other people have not had the courage to then give just another option, not to say this is the one way, but I love that you're making us think about it differently. But also I think more people feel courageous to be like, I actually felt like my convictions leaned more this way. But in our cultural messaging, I wasn't sure how to go about that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

So one of the, yeah, one of the things that I I've realized through this is that uh courage needs companions. And so some of what I hope the book will do, and it's built for group discussion. It's not meant to just you read it and form your own opinions, it's meant to be done in dialogue with others because that's what we need. Yeah. The way that the conversation has advanced thus far is you do you, Boo. Yeah. And you know, God forbid anyone say, wait a minute, what are you doing, boo? Yeah. And uh pastors can't say it. You think a dude can stand up on a Sunday morning and and call that out? You know, no. And and so, I mean, I I would I would hope, but that would be in a completely parallel universe to this one that doesn't exist right now, an alternate reality. And um, and so I'm really I'm trying to help pastors. That's part of what I'm just trying to be like, hey, courage needs companions. I'm your companion on. And I just want to say to the to the women who are listening, I know there's a general fear of ooh, I'm gonna feel judged for things I am contemplating or things that I've already done. Sure. And um, the medical aesthetics piece of the book is a very small piece of the book. Cool. But I positioned it in the book where I think it it it has finally the right context built out. So it's not a book for old people. Um, it's a book for anyone that's going to age, which means that's all of us. All of us. And uh I will say that the women who are listening to this are probably already being told they should get preventive both preventive botox 100% in their 20s, lip filler. Oh dear lord, in the one decade where you didn't have to give one thought to whether you looked old or not, now they want you to obsess over looking old, you know, yeah. That's awful. Um, and so um the medical aesthetics question may be top of mind for younger women, but we have to dial everything back and say, first, yeah, what is the theology of aging? And then second, what is the theology of the body? Those two things exist and they inform any conversation we're having about what to do next with our physicality. Um, obviously, our body is to be maintained. Uh, no one is arguing that, um, but there are many, many ways to view that. And two people can maintain their bodies in the exact same way and have two very different motives. Yeah. And so, you know, we're always gonna look at the the motive issue, the the question behind the question of how much is too much or how far is too far. Um, but I hope that by the time that conversation comes up, we've had enough thoughtfulness around just what the Bible says about why we age, the purpose of aging, or is there a purpose for aging? Yeah. Um, all of that.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

And um, and so that's what I'm hoping nip the book. And that's why I love you because you are somebody who's not just gonna say, here's what you should do. You're gonna say, What do you believe about this? And what does God's word say about this? And um, we talk a lot on here, like theology leads to orthopraxy. And so, like for the the fact that that is the approach you took, like again, it's refreshing and it's necessary for a generation who's only told what to do, not what, why do I believe that I should do this, or how do I think and believe about X, Y, and Z.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

So And it's a book about how our actions impact others, you know. I mean, that's a it's a big feature in the book. And so that can that plays into you know, the what should I do with my body conversation in a big way. And that's why I say for this generation that's coming up, I want you to wholesale reject individualism in favor of a collectivist view of what it means to be a follower of Christ. Um, no decision we make impacts just us. Yeah. So anyway, that's so good.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

No, that's amazing. Scott. Well, we will be definitely looking forward to that book. And I appreciate that you are kind of restoring a value and celebration of wisdom and lived experience and not just the fear of like anti-aging, of like actually a beautiful thing to be able to say that we've walked with Jesus this much longer, and that's something to welcome into our church and into our spaces, which I feel like is our perfect like ending because we like to ask our guests

What Jen Would Tell Her Teen Self

SPEAKER_01 30:08

especially. We always do a looking back question on the podcast, but for our guests, we like to go back to 15, 16-year-old you. And so if we can just travel back to 16-year-old Jen, is there something you would tell her?

SPEAKER_02 30:22

Oh, yeah. Um, I'm I've talked about this a lot, um, especially when I taught the book of James, but I was a sharp-tongued, um sarcastic mean girl. And um I would say to her, I understand why you are the way you are, and it's not sustainable. Uh to say the least of it's not godly, but it's it's not sustainable. And um words have the power of life and death. Yeah. And I I mean, honestly, I still to this day I can't believe that the Lord was able to redeem my speech. Um and I also would say to 15-year-old, I mean, it's not too late to change this thing that you want to say, that's just who I am. Yeah, it's it's not too late. You've been that and you don't have to stay that it's good. Um, and the spirit can do that work in you. Um, and so I would say, hang on. Um, do minimize the damage that you're doing with your tongue now, and then maximize the good that you can do with it once the Lord has done the work that only he can do.

SPEAKER_00 31:31

Yeah. So that's all I got. Well, thank you. Thank you for make me cry, guys. Goal achieved. I'm not just kidding. Yeah. Just kidding. No, um, listen, again, you are the theologian of our generation, and we are one of them, I will say. Um, but you are an important voice and we value you. Um, we honor you. Thank you for spending time with us today. Thank you for being faithful in what God's asking you to do because you were talking about people, the impact of the choices you're making, the generations that will be impacted as we are pouring into students and the next generation and we're pouring into parents. Like all of this matters so deeply. So thank you. Thank you for letting us get to have this conversation and glean some wisdom from you. And uh hopefully this won't be the last time we have you on the podcast. So um yeah, I know. We'll have we'll have some more fun another time. But listen, Jin's got a lot of really fun

Final Thanks And Where To Find Books

SPEAKER_00 32:27

things coming out. We will link all of her brand new books, children's book, her dust to dust, her new Bible studies in the description below so that way you don't miss a thing from Jin. Um, but yeah, until next time, we'll see you then. His Glory Her Good is a production of the Life Way Podcast Network. We're your hosts, Corinne Allen and Amanda Mejis.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

We are so grateful that you joined us, and we'll see you next time.