Jen Liss on becoming untethered, the power of breath-work, and making aligned choices

In today's episode I had the pleasure of interviewing Jen Liss. Jen is on a mission to educate and inspire more people to untether from societal expectations so they can shine into a more joyful, authentic, and abundant life. Known for her straightforward and honest coaching style, she makes self-development work relatable and fun. Jen is a firm believer in radical self-acceptance and nervous system regulation as a path to greater joy, which she helps people to attain through breathwork.

Jen has been honored to speak on stage both locally and internationally, sharing her message to inspire more people to live an authentically joyful life. Her podcast, Untethered with Jen Liss, is in the top 2.5% of all podcasts, encouraging thousands of listeners to align with their truth and go for their dreams.

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Episode Summary:

• What does it mean to be untethered?
• Surprise and delight versus control: Embracing uncertainty.
• Embodied safety: Its role in personal growth.
• Breathwork: Modality for self-discovery and healing.
• Noticing what's working: Key to personal growth.
• Witness perspective: Navigating challenges.
• Shame in the spiritual community: Addressing and overcoming.
• Healing is a non-linear journey: Embracing the ups and downs.
• Creativity is spiritual, and accessible.
• Jen's perspective on certifications
• How do you make choices?

Transcript

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Adriana Douglas: Hi, Jen! Welcome to the show.

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Adriana Douglas: Hi! Thanks so much for having me. It's so good to have you. I'm so excited to learn all about your journey, and

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Adriana Douglas: I think we could just dive right into it.

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Jen Liss: Yeah. And let's do. One of the things that

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Adriana Douglas: I've noticed is your Instagram handle was called untethered Gen.

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Adriana Douglas: And untethering is, and I never put 2 and 2 together as I go on unto the Gen. Cool. But I never put 2 and 2 together of like what that might

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Adriana Douglas: mean. and I would love for you to unpack that with me. A little bit of what? What untethering mean to the audience or to to you.

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Jen Liss: Yeah. So I'm discovering what being untethered means moment by moment, day by day I'm a breath worker. So I also say breath by breath, I'm learning what that really means to me.

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Jen Liss: but essentially untethering is becoming less of who you thought you were, so that you can be more of who you truly are.

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Jen Liss: so that can mean listening to our ego less. That can mean unlearning all of the things that we thought we should be doing all of the pleasing, all of the approval strategies that we have to help others seeing ourselves through other people's eyes, all of those things, letting go of that so that you can be your most true and authentic self. And I think that's a lifelong discovery. And it's pretty fun.

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Adriana Douglas: It's sounds like it allows for surprise to come through if it's because it's lifelong, and

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Adriana Douglas: every time you untether one thing or one moment, then

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Adriana Douglas: over here, up over here. And you're like, Oh, here's this new thing that that also wants to be untethered. It's almost like each each part is like, Wait me, too.

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Jen Liss: And there are scientific things that are happening in our brand when we are surprised and delighted, that are really good for your creativity. And so, you know, looking at life through that lens of. I'm constantly untethering what's around the corner can be so much more fun. Then I need this to happen so that I can, you know. So there's a whole different shift in perspective that has happened for me since taking this

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Jen Liss: more. I'm untethering. That's that is my perspective as opposed to. I need to get to here. I think you and I can relate a lot on that striving, achieving kind of mindset. That's what I had for most of my life, and I came to a point where I realized

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Jen Liss: this isn't getting it for me. And what else is there? There's got to be something else to life than achieving and striving and proving.

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Adriana Douglas: Once that question

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Adriana Douglas: starts percolating the what else is there that is not only untethering, like unraveling all of a sudden.

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Adriana Douglas: all of a sudden, you realize you know, nothing like, what is this universe? Where are we? Why are we here? What are we doing? And

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Adriana Douglas: and so I really appreciate that you're also sharing surprise and delight, something that you are like actively like. II want this in my life.

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Adriana Douglas: Why, there are folks that might feel like a little threatened by a surprise or synchronicity or delight like why could that be so tough for us to actually open up to and receive.

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Jen Liss: Oh, because we want control, because it's terrifying. I'm like, Oh, it's so much fun to be curious and to have surprise and delight around every bend. But no, the ego is not okay with that most, or we want control. We want safety. There is a lack of safety, and being surprised and delighted of not knowing what's coming at you. If you don't have bodily embodied safety in your beingness that feels

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Jen Liss: freaking, terrifying, absolutely terrifying, so no way and hell would I think that that sounds fun or awesome if I don't have a sense of embodied

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Jen Liss: safety. And that was very much me a few years ago, and I've realized through this journey what I really needed was to come back home to myself so that I could feel

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Jen Liss: like it's. It's curious. And it's fun. And I get to see what's around the bend instead of being terrified that something's gonna pop out around the bend. I love hope. I love horror movies, but I really don't want to live my life terrified that something a clown's gonna pop out around every corner, which is how most of us are living our lives.

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Adriana Douglas: I remember a moment like exactly you're describing about embodying the safety. I remember a moment. It was about 3 years ago.

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Adriana Douglas: and I was getting out of my car

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Adriana Douglas: going somewhere, and I remember it was one of the first times

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Adriana Douglas: I was so confused mentally because I kept like feeling. I just like I don't feel safe. I don't feel safe. And this had never happened before, like I think I lived my life, as you said, like probably living that way my entire life. But I didn't have the mind-body connection, and I remember it was like, I don't know my body just like turned on.

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Adriana Douglas: and it was like, I don't feel safe. I don't feel safe, and I didn't know what to do. In that moment. I was like. There's no threats around me, you know. You're like observing the environment like there's no actual threat I'm actually

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Adriana Douglas: find. But my body was like, we don't. We can't go there like we like. We don't like. This is not cool.

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Adriana Douglas: and I didn't even know how to listen to it. I was like. I don't know what to do with this information that you've just given me. Body like we've been. We've been working from here the whole time, so What has supported you in getting some of that embodied safety

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Adriana Douglas: that that we could all use more of.

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Jen Liss: Oh, breathwork! It's why I am a breath worker. It's why I created a business around it. It has been so paramount to my journey, and also meditation Reiki. Like all of the energetic practices, any embodiment practice that helps you to feel back into your body. I'm passionate about all of them, but for me.

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Jen Liss: breathwork through and through.

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Adriana Douglas: What kind of breathwork do you facilitate or do or use?

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Jen Liss: Yeah, I facilitate trauma, informed meditative breathwork. Primarily, I also work with simple breaths, helping people supporting people with, you know, learning to breathe again. I've got a couple of clients who have long covid. I support people with that. Primarily. What I love to do is exactly what we're talking about helping people to ground back into what a sense of embodied safety means, so that we can

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Jen Liss: untether we can't untether without safety. And so yeah, we can. We can go as deep as you want into how that happens with brother.

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Adriana Douglas: Yeah, that's that's so interesting because we can't untether until we have the safety. And so.

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Adriana Douglas: you know, if I could go back and do it all over again like starting the healing journey.

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Adriana Douglas: I think I started a lot more with mindset, which is fabulous. But it didn't get me the safety. It was like I skipped a step, you know, so

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Adriana Douglas: I once I started discovering breathwork and being able to pull it out in the moment. In those moments it was something that

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Adriana Douglas: allowed me to really ground in, as you're saying, but something I also noticed was that I had to slow down

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Adriana Douglas: like I it was too much too fast for me. So like, yeah, I would love to go into the breathwork a little bit more of like what

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Adriana Douglas: what it looks like to also respect and honor

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Adriana Douglas: your nervous system and and your body's needs, because, like I didn't know, I had to slow down so I'd go do these like intense breathwork sessions. And then I'd be like

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Adriana Douglas: frazzled because I didn't have that

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Adriana Douglas: that foundation that I think

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Adriana Douglas: I didn't know I was looking for. But I definitely needed.

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Jen Liss: Yeah, this is 2 important things. So I will talk about the mindset thing first, most of us start with mindset. And that's okay. That's where most of the world is operating from the space of the mind. So that is our natural entry point for anyone.

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Jen Liss: Very few people are like, Hmm! I'm gonna go get into my body like we don't even know what the F. That means. So why would we enter from there? You know what I mean. It's like seeing the the mystery. There's these breweries here in Portland that have mystery doors, and you don't even know that the mystery doors are there

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Jen Liss: unless somebody has told you. And then, once you know that there's a blue light that shows you the mystery door. Then it's very easy. Every time you walk into a Mc. Min. You know, to go look for the blue light. There's the mystery door. Go in. That's what we know now about embodiment.

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Jen Liss: But we were. We were completely clueless. We didn't see somebody go in through a random mystery door when we were walking through the brewery. You know what I mean. It's once you do. You're like, what's that door? What's happening is, there's oh, there's something fun in here. So that's that is mindset versus embodiment.

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Jen Liss: And then, when we talk about, you can re-traumatize, we can re-traumatize ourselves over and over and over, and surprisingly, it can actually feel really good. We're just going in. And we're like blowing ourselves out. And we're blowing our minds. And it's like Whoa. And this just feels so good over and over and over, because you're triggering yourself, and you're like feeling good afterward. And then you're triggering. It's like a fight with your significant other doing it over and over again, and

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Jen Liss: that can happen with healing modalities not on purpose. But it it can happen if we're not aware of

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Jen Liss: our threshold. And so what you're speaking to, which is so important is really starting to under. It's okay. If you blow that out

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Jen Liss: and then coming. But it's like once, you know. Better do better and realize maybe that was too much. Let me take it back what we call it. And and as breathwork facilitators will call it titration, taking things in little

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Jen Liss: tiny

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Jen Liss: sips. And it's why my breathwork offering I offer

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Jen Liss: a membership where I'm it's like, come and be here in the breath with me multiple times a week for multiple months on end, because I want you to feel safe titrating. I don't want you to feel like you have to come in and like, get this wham, bam. Thank you, ma'am, you might, but it would be better and best if you can, just like, come in and take a little sip and see what happens to your nervous system, and then take another little sip and watch what happens to your nervous system.

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Adriana Douglas: I love that. And I think I'm thinking about what you mentioned about the brewery and the doors. and like we. That's, you know, yeah, mindsets kind of like the door, right? That we go through. I also feel like just using the door.

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Adriana Douglas: Metaphor analogy is that

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Adriana Douglas: sometimes I think I would blindly walk through these doors of these healing doors. Because I just I once, you know. once you know, first of all that healing is available. And then you also know that there all these modalities like we are talking about a little bit.

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Adriana Douglas: I wanted to go explore them all. So it was like going through all the magic doors.

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Adriana Douglas: And sometimes, though, like I think I don't know, maybe this has just been on my mind lately is like.

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Adriana Douglas: not all of them are supposed to work for you, and I really like I think my ego took a hit when I was like, why isn't that working

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Adriana Douglas: like that one? It they all should work, you know, and some of them didn't. And sometimes it was going through the door, and it was like a horror move like we're also set a horror. Movie thing was like, some doors were like scary movies, and some doors were like Disney movies and some doors are like, I don't know Wonka, or something so like

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Adriana Douglas: it really depended. And so I also. And that goes back to the safety, where, like, I feel like, with more embodied safety.

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Adriana Douglas: you can make that informed decision to be like, oh, I'm going to actually walk back out and go through a new door versus feeling like you have to stick with it. So I feel like some people will say, Hey, that thing didn't work for me.

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Adriana Douglas: and then they stop like they stopped there, because, like, oh, meditation didn't work or like that. Breathwork wasn't for me. And then they're like they don't continue on the journey. So it's like, how do we get more people

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Adriana Douglas: keep going on the journey? It's lifelong. It's like, how do we keep get more people to to join us on this

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Adriana Douglas: train.

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Jen Liss: Oh, that's the question. That's the that's the ever growing question. And of course, part of it is the society that we live in. And the way the way that we hook the human brain is that we have to sell everything, or we feel like we have to sell everything as the thing that is gonna help you. And what

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Jen Liss: selling things is. The thing that is going to help you does to people is that it creates judgment of self when it doesn't work for us. And so there's this unintended consequence of some of the marketing that we do in this world, and I don't fully know what the solution to that is, you know. But I'm trying ways, just

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Jen Liss: radical honesty, and trying to trying to come at it from this place of being really authentic. But part of it is that, and so judgment comes in. We have so much judgment, we have so much shame. And if you aren't aware that that's what's happening in your mind and your body when you have an experience, then you're naturally your brain is, gonna

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Jen Liss: it's going to say that to you. So it's like. have compassion

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Jen Liss: for yourself when you notice that, and just keep following the breadcrumbs. That's all I can tell anybody is, continue to follow the breadcrumbs and continue to release judgment.

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Jen Liss: Yeah, every corner, because that judgment isn't serving you beyond you gaining some kind of information from it, like, Oh, okay, what is what is here for me from that?

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Jen Liss: And that's what I feel like. Breathwork helps me more than anything

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Jen Liss: to separate viscerally, I can viscerally separate from what is actually me that magical light beam, that I truly am, that energetic source, that the soul, the heart, the whatever you want to call it, the god part of myself. I can feel the difference between the swell of emotion. That is what the ego is running through my body versus what I truly am. And if you've never felt that before.

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Jen Liss: how could you possibly separate the judgment and that ego and all of those things from what you truly are. So it's a felt thing. And we're we're feeling creatures. But a lot of us have numbed out.

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Adriana Douglas: Yeah, 2 2 things that come up for me, as you say. That one is. that sounds a little bit too like that concept of turning on the witness a little bit like at least to

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Adriana Douglas: to see both of those. And then the other thing that I was thinking about was following the breadcrumbs. That's sort of like where the creative journey turned on for me. Cause like following the breadcrumbs.

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Adriana Douglas: Is that a

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Adriana Douglas: creative journey into the unknown, of like what what's next like? And and you get to

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Adriana Douglas: create or co-create that next step that then leads to the next step, and then it, and then you start to design it and dance around it. And like, if you don't like something, you get to change it. So so we can. Yeah, we can kind of go in 2 directions. One, I think, the that witness that witness part is really important, because and I think different modalities talk about it similarly, but like the witness, the higher cell

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Adriana Douglas: that that moment where you can.

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Adriana Douglas: I was gonna say, sort of for me. It's like balancing

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Adriana Douglas: for me. It's a balancing act between the Higher self and and the ego like. That's where I am right now in my in my journey.

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Adriana Douglas: I'd love to hear. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. If the witness resonates with you.

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Jen Liss: Yeah, the witness resonates with me more than higher self. I use both because I know that people connect with one over the other. I'm personally a fan of dismantling hierarchy in every way that we can, even in terms of high vibe, higher self that that is automatically putting something better than the other. And I think the ego is really important, and who you really are is really important. The ego is helping you navigate this planet.

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Jen Liss: The ego is here to help you communicate with other other people here on the planet, and to move about this world that we have created. So they're both incredibly

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Jen Liss: important. So that's my perspective. I think the witness, the witness is the watcher. That's what you are. You're watching all of this happen, what depending, what you

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Jen Liss: believe and what what your belief system is. But mine is that we came here to have an experience. We came to this earth to experience, to change things, to shift things to. Maybe

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Jen Liss: all of us came with some different reason. Maybe mine and yours is probably to help do some like shifting and changing of things because we're in this active space. Other people are just here to come and have some fun. We're all here for different things.

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Adriana Douglas: something that you just said.

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Adriana Douglas: I totally think we should dive into the when you said the dismantling, the hierarchy.

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Adriana Douglas: and I say that because I've been on a journey of creating music and something that happened to me like. And this must be.

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Adriana Douglas: maybe it's spiritual, I'll say, like spirituality, on the Internet or whatever.

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Adriana Douglas: I started to feel like. Some of the music wasn't high vibe enough.

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Adriana Douglas: and I could see how it was for lack of better word

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Adriana Douglas: fucking with mind. Fuck because I was like, how could I now

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Adriana Douglas: not feel like proud of this creation? Because it's like not

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Adriana Douglas: I don't know. It was like. It's human music makes us all human. It talks about the human experience, this full range of emotions.

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Adriana Douglas: And I could feel this judgment, this this voice that's like it's not high by. And I'm like, but that's the point I've been really working with this lately, with with an untethering, this belief of like.

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Adriana Douglas: Why does it have to be high vibe like? Why can't it just be what it is? So I would love to talk about that hierarchy

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Adriana Douglas: perspective. Because I bet you some artists feel that way of like what what I just created like, is it? You know you could say, is it good enough. Is it this enough? Is it that enough? But

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Adriana Douglas: the hierarchy? And it's a real thing.

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Jen Liss: Yeah, it is a real thing, I mean, and that comes in. And I mean there's the spiritual bypassing. There's spiritual shame, there's spiritual guilt it it all exists at every level, because at every level there are humans with egos who are creating these things. And when we become unaware of that ego, we end up creating

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Jen Liss: feelings in within the structure of it which you are currently feeling. There is a culture in the healing community that is a a shame culture that does exist. It exists within everything where it's so powerful is that you noticed it? You said, what's happening here? What's happening

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Adriana Douglas: it? I

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Adriana Douglas: I'm so glad that, like you know it. Cause I didn't know

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Adriana Douglas: I didn't know. I had no idea that the spiritual shame was

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Adriana Douglas: like a thing. And

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Adriana Douglas: and is is it almost like? Is the point to just notice it as you said. or do we want to

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Adriana Douglas: dismantle? It's at some point you're like, I don't want the world to be this way. I want this to stop. So now I want to like, go change like.

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Jen Liss: what if that is part of my journey? What if I talk about this a little bit

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Jen Liss: in this conversation with Jen, and we'll see where this goes, and we'll see if it lights a spark in me, and see if there's something here for me in this in this experience, or is it simply for you to be somehow bringing that into your music in some way? You know it's like every conversation we have every day. There is something new for us that is

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Jen Liss: layering this for us, and it's helping us. It's like a layering on, and then a dismantling back down and a layering on. And that's the that is what I look at as the untethering. It's like we're always getting new layers, and then we're pulling them back down and looking at what's new and what a beautiful creative process that we're all engaging in all day, every day.

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Adriana Douglas: I never thought about it, about the putting the layers on cause. I've always been

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Adriana Douglas: of the mindset of peeling the layers

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Adriana Douglas: back like getting the onion to the core, you know, but it sounds like there's also a

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Jen Liss: layering up again and then going back down. Is that what I'm hearing? Am I? Am I getting it? It's so funny, cause we're almost like hierarchy. We're learning new things all day, every day, you know, every for every onion like layer that you peel down. It's like there's a new one. And where does that new one come from? I don't know if it's just like going down to the core, or if it's like a new one that comes into the perip, you know, it's like, yeah, like, it sprouts

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Adriana Douglas: slices like

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Adriana Douglas: II find it fascinating. And that's like for for those listening like this is really sometimes what it's like is just

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Adriana Douglas: having a conversation like this, where you start to even understand one of these topics. And then, as you mentioned like, decide, oh, do I want to go

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Adriana Douglas: explore that for a longer period of time? Or did I just need that little bit of information from Jen today to just kind of

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Adriana Douglas:  sit with and then go create something else, you know, and you never know. And sometimes

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Adriana Douglas: and sometimes it's happened to me where

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Adriana Douglas: the information

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Adriana Douglas: sometimes it's not even

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Adriana Douglas: like relevant, until, like a year later or 2 years later, has that happened to you where like, you learned something like

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Adriana Douglas: way back. And then it finally clicks later, it's not. That's the whole. It's not linear. We want things to be linear, because that's the way the mind works in a linear way. But you

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Jen Liss: don't necessarily work in a linear way. Energy doesn't work in a linear way. It's completely non local, it's completely nonlinear. But the mind that is most of the time in control. So when you can come back and accept more of what and who you are, and accept more of the information that your body is receiving. Via energetic transmissions, you start to be able to dismantle that desire for things to be so linear. And yes, things are coming in

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Jen Liss: all the time, you know my own journey. This makes me think of just

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Jen Liss: my own journey, I started a podcast a few years ago. It's called the Creative Commute. I actually, I see a lot of myself in you and your podcast journey as you're stepping into this space. It it began as an exploration of creativity, speaking to creatives, helping people be more creative. I was exploring. What does it mean to be creative? What does create creativity even mean? What does it mean to people who are out there being creative? And I did this exploration. And what I came to realize. You said this right before we hopped on the podcast creativity is spiritual.

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Jen Liss: and that Aha for me changed

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Jen Liss: everything.

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Jen Liss: It changed everything but what I have always called this, and I still prescribe to this, even with the the untethering and all that bit that we're talking about. I always called it a creative commute. That was my podcast was called. We are gaining new things all along the way, and all of those new things that you were gaining all the time are making you into the creative being that you are today

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Jen Liss: like the creative person that I was yesterday is different than

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Jen Liss: today, because you've gained more. You have access to different energy. You have access to different thoughts and new ideas and new experiences. So we are

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Jen Liss: moving and shifting all the time.

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Jen Liss: But what's different from like a traditional commute is that it's not just from here to A to B, it's like A to B to C to D, all the all at the same time. And we can't quite like comprehend that in the brain

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Adriana Douglas: I had no idea about your old podcast name. And that's so cool because it you said it so eloquently like, it's the whole creative creativity is spiritual. And and once yeah, once you come to that conclusion.

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Adriana Douglas: then it opens up this whole world of what I want to create next. And what

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Adriana Douglas: what resources do I have? And resources don't have to be like like physical and form, or they don't have to be like material things like resources could just be like your breath. You said, like, what resources. Do I have to

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Adriana Douglas: be more creative problem. Solve  drive to school talking, taking the commute part literally drive a different route to be inspired.

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Adriana Douglas:  you know, I even with over the holiday season, played around with with elf on the shelf. Just just cause I was like, I wanna like, see what this is like to

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Adriana Douglas: see if this supports

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Adriana Douglas: me with my ideas for something else like sometimes

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Adriana Douglas: sometimes

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Adriana Douglas: I create, really without intention for something like that off on the shelf. And then sometimes, are these bigger creations that are very intentional, like very like

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Adriana Douglas:  defined or very

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Adriana Douglas: goal area oriented. And then sometimes there's some. So there's there's a full spectrum of creative endeavors. And so I love that you started that way. And then you evolved to untethered

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Adriana Douglas: right? And so what?

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Adriana Douglas: What came up for you as you shifted from one to the other? Was it difficult? Easy?

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Jen Liss: Well, the impetus for shifting was really that I realized there is a big problem with creativity. And that big problem with creativity is that most people don't even believe they're creative. So I couldn't talk to the people or talk about the topics that I really wanted to talk about, because people were like, Well, you're talking about creativity. Why are you talking about this. And

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Jen Liss: that is a problem. People not realizing that they are creative is an inherent problem in our society, because you cannot be your absolute spark, sparkly, magical, amazing, unicorn best that I love to talk about without admitting first, I am a creative being. I am a creator. I can create and transmute and change and shift and grow. If we don't see that inherently at our core, what we are is

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Jen Liss: creation, and we what we are creators. Then there

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Jen Liss: that we got a problem which we do have a global problem about that. But I couldn't talk to those people. So I knew that there was something that I needed to shift into, and the idea of untether untethered actually came. During a coaching call. My coach was talking about her daughter was playing tetherball, and she was like she was just like kicking it. In this she was kicking the Tetherball in the most untethered way. She was just being herself in this just really cool. She was just fully herself.

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Jen Liss: and she's like she wasn't playing Tetherball correctly. She was just wildly. And she's like that's the person who she is, and I was like, that's it. It's getting back down to what is that

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Jen Liss: version of you? What is you like? What is the way that you kick the Tetherball. What is the way that you're not even supposed to kick a Tetherball? Right? I don't even know how to play Tetherball. I think it's like a hand situation. So it's untethering from all the things that we thought creativity included. What does it mean to be creative, untethering from all the things that you ever thought so that you can come back home. So

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Jen Liss: what is it for me? What is this life? What is this world? What is it all for me, and I know this is so esoteric, some of what we're talking about. But it's also really practical.

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Adriana Douglas: Yeah, you can. Can you be esoteric and be practical. I think it. The answer is, Yes.

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Jen Liss: I think so. I my, I always like to say that my like approach to life is parts and philosophy, which I think is practical. And

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Adriana Douglas: I'm so glad you shared that because, you know, I am about let's call it

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Adriana Douglas: 3 or 4 months into my podcast journey one month into

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Adriana Douglas: episodes being out in in the For for listeners, and

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Adriana Douglas: that

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Adriana Douglas: that those shifts and awareness of like wait a second. We are all artists.

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Adriana Douglas: It's exactly what you're saying like. It's possible

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Adriana Douglas: that if somebody does not believe that they won't click.

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Adriana Douglas: they'll be like, I'm not like. I don't. I'm not an artist like I'm my blessing.

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Adriana Douglas: and it's always been interesting for me. I had a coach one time. Ask me

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Adriana Douglas: the question like, What's your door sign like? What will your door sign be? And I thought it was really interesting, because

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Adriana Douglas: currently the door sign is, we are all artists. But it's like what you were saying. You're like. But if nobody's opening it like because they're like, I'm not an artist like no, next. it's like, what?

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Adriana Douglas: How do you

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Adriana Douglas: get people into the in the door? We keep going back this door. Analogy. How do you get them in the door? Because, like. If I'm not an artist. I don't want to listen to this, but everything that is in. Once they open this. We are all artists, door, all the tools and resources and things to get them to their essence

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Adriana Douglas: are there.

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Adriana Douglas: and the whole thing is like your essence, like you, said the magical, unicorn, fantastic

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Adriana Douglas: thing. It's the untethering

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Adriana Douglas: day by day, breath by breath, to get to the essence

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Adriana Douglas: and then feel like you can make something beautiful, whether that's

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Adriana Douglas: your pancakes, or whether that's your music or your life.

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Adriana Douglas: and it becomes like a micro and a macro

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Adriana Douglas: movement. So yeah, I'm just kind of marinating in that as we speak of, like, what what's the door sign? If if people kind of don't open so like we don't think we're artists

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Adriana Douglas: or we don't think we're creative. It's it's

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Adriana Douglas: tough.

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Jen Liss: It is tough, because what I want people to see is that they are brilliant. You are brilliant. Everybody is brilliant, and once we really start to feel our actual brilliance, it's undeniable. But most of us are working from what we think that

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Jen Liss: brilliance actually is. You know, my goal is for more and more people, hundreds of thousands of millions of people to get to the end of their life and say that was fucking brilliant. You dropped enough bomb. So I know I can. That's my explicit. That's my goal, right? Like that's that's the goal.

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Jen Liss: But we can't tell people something. This is one to take to the bank, and it's for me to think about. To all of us who have something that we're like, I just. I have this message that I really care about. So for any of your listeners who are like your entrepreneurs, or you wanna be entrepreneurs, or you have just some calling on your heart, and for some reason you're like saying it, and nobody's listening. And you're so frustrated we cannot tell people something that they don't already know

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Jen Liss: you can't tell anybody

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Jen Liss: something that they don't already know. You can get them slightly curious about it. Maybe

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Jen Liss: if you're selling something if you're selling something you want people to listen to your podcast, you want people to buy your product. We've got to confirm a knowing that they already have inherently in their mind. There's something that they already know about themselves.

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Jen Liss: and maybe they're not saying it out loud. but they already know it. So when we talk about this idea of artists. It is so fascinating because.

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Jen Liss: do people already know that they're artists? Do they already know that they're creative? You know it raises all of these questions. And it, it all depends on on the goal. And where you end up taking your podcast and all of those things, and not speaking specifically

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Jen Liss: to that. But also, you know, talking about that, it's like we have to just think about like, what is the message that I really care about? We find that by continuing to move forward, having this conversation with me having more conversations with other people, we can't just the mind can't figure that out

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Jen Liss: all at once. We have to have more experiences. So you're doing like this amazing magical thing of moving forward with the thing that's helping you to make shift and change and move and groove. And now you've got all these new onion petals flying around.

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Adriana Douglas: and a lot more awareness that a lot of the things I've heard mentors or coaches say over the years, like some. Now that the podcast is out, like in certain instances, I can now be like, oh, they were right like you. The action creates the action creates the the clarity, because the more episodes I do, and for an entrepreneur for somebody else. It would be like. The more steps you take.

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Adriana Douglas: the more I can refine and be like, oh. that's not landing, or Oh, that does that really resonates, or oh, I'm getting feedback on this.

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Adriana Douglas: And at the same time

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Adriana Douglas: this is something that I've also been been

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Adriana Douglas: thinking about in terms of. or if I take the artistry. Conversation a little further is the like you're also creating for yourself.

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Adriana Douglas: So I personally have to be like, really cognizant of being like, oh, that got the most downloads. I'm going to create more of that. It's like, no, no, no, no, no! Like we still create from

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Adriana Douglas: what's inspired, not like

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Adriana Douglas: I saw the numbers did. Well, so I'm just gonna like double down on that. And that's that's like a balancing act, too, though, because right, you want to build an audience, and you want an audience that you want to give the audience what they need right? Once they say, Hey, I need this.

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Adriana Douglas: and and you also want to respect like

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Adriana Douglas: that's something I can or cannot, you know,

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Adriana Douglas: expand upon. And then also

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Adriana Douglas: knowing when, as an artist, as a creative, as an entrepreneur as a coach like

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Adriana Douglas: when it's time to take the next step in your evolution. So like. when is the next time to get a certificate or a training or a thing. And when do you like not?

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Adriana Douglas: When is that irrelevant because? I know. I know, throughout the

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Adriana Douglas: throughout Kathy, eller's podcast, course, like there were definitely a few conversations about

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Adriana Douglas: your life experience sometimes being more important than like, oh, I got a certificate saying, I can do breathwork. It's like that. And it's like a yes, and conversation or both. And conversation, I would say.

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Jen Liss: Yeah, I want to talk about this certificate thing because I have a

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Jen Liss: possibly polarizing, very strong point of view on that, and I would like to say what you were talking about this dance of giving people what they want, and also following what is true to you. That's so important. And as long as we're asking those questions, then you're you're doing it. Well, when we're asking that question. And can it be both? I think Taylor Swift is the perfect example of both. She is giving people what they need, and she's being fully herself.

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Jen Liss: and she's having so much fun doing it. So that's why people love her because she's doing all of that wrapped into one, or you could, for some reason, probably cause I was a huge Hansen fan. When I was growing up. Hansen comes to mind because they still play and bop. They know that everybody wants to hear the friggin and bop song, but they have continued to explore their artistry. They're actually incredibly talented musicians who still play out all the time because they love it.

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Jen Liss: and they still play them up because they know that that's what people want to hear. They're still gonna play it even. But they're gonna play a few of their songs, too, and have some fun up there. So I think it's it's it's both. And that's a dance of finding that balance. Okay, now let's talk about certifications.

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Jen Liss: Do not get a certification. Do not go to get some kind of training

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Jen Liss: period unless you are incredibly curious. You are vivaciously curious to learn that thing. There is something inside of you is like, I really want to learn that I just really want to learn that. Maybe you don't even know why

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Jen Liss: you want to learn it. Maybe you can't even justify the cost. You can't justify the reason you can't fully justify it to yourself. But you're so freaking. Curious.

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Jen Liss: Get that certification. Go, go do it. If it's called to you. It showed up for you, and you're so interested. That was me with breathwork.

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Jen Liss: No reason to do that had. No, that was not my path. I was not like, I'm gonna be a healer. Yes, I'm gonna go make money building a breathwork business. No, it was. It showed up for me, and I knew

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Jen Liss: when something shows up for you, and you know, get that certification. Otherwise, Nope.

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Jen Liss: do not just go get a certification to get a certification, because it's gonna prove something to somebody. You've already got what you need. We have so much of what we need already inside of us. II truly prescribe

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Jen Liss: to that. So start giving it to the world.

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Jen Liss: You don't have to get the certification first to start offering it.

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Jen Liss: unless maybe, if you like, wanna you know, carve out people's organs or something. Yeah, like when we talk about like medical and like scientific research and stuff different, we're talking like more healing art, healing arts.

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Adriana Douglas: type, conversation, and like to your point on that.

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Adriana Douglas: I would say I'm coming to a so

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Adriana Douglas: a similar conclusion. But about but about what sorts of programs I invest in which is irrelevant. You don't necessarily get a certificate from program, but it's about, where is it coming from? Exactly like what showed up? What is showing up

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Adriana Douglas: currently for you and your life of like, what are you? What's what's what's showing up, and that you're like you said, curious about, but like

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Jen Liss: not just curious about. You were like, extra curious, extra curious like, can I give an example of our conversation and us connecting you're curious about podcasting? Yes. It was obvious, it was obvious that you're curious about podcasting. And you were, you know, you really wanted to know. And you were called to this collective of people. And you were like, Oh, man, I'm really loving this this vibe in this conversation. And what's being offered here? This feels like the right space. And you said yes, and it was aligned. Yes.

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Adriana Douglas: yeah. And that was after many

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Adriana Douglas: moments. I think this this podcast. Is probably one of one of the first and more recent times where I was actually like.

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Adriana Douglas: This is what it feels like to be aligned, because before I had a lot of, I thought mentally like, Oh, this is aligned because I want to do it, or but it was a lot of like, I think, fear or shame based. We talked about shame based in the beginning, or I need this before I can

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Adriana Douglas: do a podcast and with the with the podcasting, it was like.

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Adriana Douglas: let's go, we're on this journey together. And I think that was a big, a big part of the movement for me, was somebody saying, Let's go. I'm taking you with me.

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Adriana Douglas: and I was like.

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Adriana Douglas: let's let's do it like I was so motivated and and I and I didn't need after that it was like the motivation just that's a big thing, too, like

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Adriana Douglas: the motivation was sustained, you know, if you just go get a certification to get it, I would have to guess that you might lose interest after a while, or it might

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Adriana Douglas: right like, if you go get a certification just for

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Adriana Douglas: proof or

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Adriana Douglas: whatever it's not gonna satisfy you.

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Jen Liss: No, because then you're just gonna get the proving. You're gonna prove to everybody that you could do it. But that wasn't really. That was the motivation was coming from a different place. And I think, too, you could anybody can start a podcast you could have started a podcast without that course.

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Jen Liss: But what did you gain from that course that was unexpected.

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Jen Liss: Are there things that you have gained that have been unexpected, things that you have learned or felt, or or grown into?

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Adriana Douglas: I think one. It was one of those things that I actually wanted to buy it earlier in the year, because there is like a digital version you can buy, and I even reached out, was like, Do can I do this? I know you only offer it like at different times of year. But do you have it available for me to buy now. And they're like, Yeah, and I didn't buy it. I was like, for some reason, like, I'm not buying it this way, and then I don't know if it was like a sponsored ad, or if I just saw a story.

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Adriana Douglas: And the reason I'm starting at this point in the

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Adriana Douglas: in the processes.

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Adriana Douglas: One.

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Adriana Douglas: I won a prize.

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Adriana Douglas: so I want a prize. And before it started, during the week of the challenge and the reason this was important to me was because I learned what it felt like to receive

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Jen Liss: and like to receive in a way that was so

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Adriana Douglas: incredible in terms of like. I didn't have to do anything. It was just if that makes sense like there was this big lesson, and like I got to receive something. And I was like.

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Adriana Douglas: Wow, this community is like, really, really powerful. And I haven't even purchase the course yet. Like, I just was like, this is like an energy I've not experienced

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Adriana Douglas: in the best way possible. And then the other learnings, I think a lot of it was. I didn't even really know other than the podcast like what was going to come up. And there was so much

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Adriana Douglas: support weaved throughout at every turn.

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Adriana Douglas: It was like how to make an offer

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Adriana Douglas: how to start selling like for me. One of the bigger ones was kind of like this is why you're not making money yet. There's a lot of conversations about like this is, why not making money yet? Because, like, you're not selling like your your like, it was actually like that simple

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Jen Liss: one of those ones that you're like, oh, that hurt a little bit.

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Jen Liss: Yeah, but we're not. We're not taught how to. And we're taught to sell in all kinds of ways that don't feel good. And so that that's how we think that it needs to be done. I got goose bumps from head to toe when you talk about that receiving. That was I mean it.

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Jen Liss: It was obviously your aligned journey to get to have that experience, so that then you said yes, to something that was going to help you grow in ways that you didn't even fully realize to learn things that you didn't know you needed to learn. And you just got to have so many new cool experiences by saying yes to it. Yeah. And I think I think, just for yeah, for those listening, and like, just really take stock of.

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Adriana Douglas: I know it's different, depending on your human design and your makeup, and in terms of

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Adriana Douglas: what? A yes and a no might feel like for folks. So I that's definitely something that II personally would say, take take it with a grain of salt

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Adriana Douglas: about what's a yes and a no for the audience. But I don't know if you've had that experience. I've had to really learn what it meant for me. A yes, and a no cause it's not. It was not black and white

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Adriana Douglas: like it was like very different in terms of

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Adriana Douglas: was it a body sensation? Was it a did I get, you know, kind of clouded, clouded mind like. did I? Feel a visceral that like I had to really start to break down, so go back to the slow, and sometimes I got it wrong. So no, they got it wrong, but it then gave me data of

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Adriana Douglas: What's a yes, what was it? Actually a yes, going

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Adriana Douglas: forward? Maybe that would be a helpful way for us to kind of wrap up. The conversation is like when people are going on this journey.

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Adriana Douglas: and they so desperately want to be, have like a community they want to heal.

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Adriana Douglas: they want to be supported.

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Adriana Douglas: It's finding the right person like Kathy was like, I'm not gonna be the right person for all of you.

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Adriana Douglas: and I'm so glad you also said that cause like not. Everybody says that

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Adriana Douglas: not everybody says that. And so when she said that I was like, she's so real like, it's right, not everybody's gonna be for you  are there ways that you make those decisions in your life about?

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Adriana Douglas: Yes and no, or that you might say to somebody that wants to work with you.

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Jen Liss: Yeah, I have a very specific decision making process that I teach to my clients, which is kind of different. And I'll I'll share it with all of you. There may definitely be something for you in this, and it's all part of learning to trust yourself and the information that you are getting, because we are taught. And this is primarily this goes back to the tethers. We are taught to look for outside information.

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Jen Liss: We're very trained at it. You do not need to flex that muscle anymore. Most of us, unless you're a sociopath like you, you don't need to flex the outside information muscle. We need to learn to flex the inside information muscle. So when you have a decision, say, it's we're just gonna say tonight, do I want pizza or tacos.

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Jen Liss: but heads is pizza tails is Tacos.

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Jen Liss: You flip the coin.

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Jen Liss: and it lands on heads.

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Jen Liss: and that's pizza.

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Jen Liss: How do you feel about pizza right now now that it has chosen. The decision's been made. How do you feel about it?

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Adriana Douglas: I'm actually like.

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Adriana Douglas: I'm not. I'm I'm not completely. I'm not completely convinced. I'm like

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Jen Liss: that's information. You've just gained new information. Maybe that's not something that feels really good. Can I ask a different question? Can I ask a different question? Do I feel like eating out tonight, and we ask a different question. Then we see what we feel. Ho.

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Jen Liss: crap! II think I actually just wanted to eat inside. I just wanted to stay home. I didn't even want to go out and get pizza, Tacos. So it's this.

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Jen Liss: flip the coin, make a decision.

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Jen Liss: make the decision. Just make a decision. It doesn't matter. There are no right and wrong decisions. One of the most powerful things I've ever learned. There's no good and bad decision. There are simply decisions. They are completely neutral.

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Jen Liss: The decision itself is neutral.

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Jen Liss: It's the information that you receive after the decision is made that really matters. And the most important information is how you feel.

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Jen Liss: which is usually what we completely ignore. We just look to the outside. We say, Okay, what's the result of that decision? But we don't look at the inner result and how we feel about the decision that was made, because 99% of the time. Now there are some when we're talking about like life or death decisions that is slightly different.

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Jen Liss: But we make

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Jen Liss: thousands of decisions every single day. And if we can start making more of those decisions from a place of, I'm just going to make the decision. And then I'm going to see how I feel that will change everything for you.

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Jen Liss: of absolutely everything

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Jen Liss: changes when you start, make the decision. How do I feel?

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Jen Liss: Make another decision? How do I feel, and we move forward from that space.

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Adriana Douglas: So go into your example of the heads, pizza tails, Tacos.

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Adriana Douglas: If we make we flip the coins. Pizza, I'm all of a sudden like the pizza is like, not that great. Then you said the next. The next step in that kind of

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Jen Liss: mental process is, ask a different question. Yes, ask another question. Ask a more clarifying question, or a or you could have been like, actually, I did want tacos like that. It's pretty obvious. It could have just been that you actually wanted the other thing, and you needed some physical feeling clarity for yourself. So

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Jen Liss: I skipped that part. But yes, it's

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Jen Liss: gain clarity in that situation like. Hmm. What was that? There was a feeling there? What might that mean for me then? If it's like, okay, I don't want Tacos and II kind of feel neutral about pizza. Well.

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Jen Liss: what might it be like if I didn't get pizza at all? And I stayed home. And we can just start unraveling the question into new questions. It helps you ask a better question, which is really like money in this world. Yeah. Yeah. As you're saying, I'm like, yeah, this would be helpful for anyone making a decision and and just knowing that

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Adriana Douglas: it creates clarity. The action creates the clarity, the action of flipping the coin, the action of whatever the action is. And it's so interesting because that just full circle, it's like

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Adriana Douglas: the journey. The journey that we've been talking about this this past hour is really

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Adriana Douglas: the journey back to self right? And like every time you ask the question. You get better at asking questions, and like, I feel like it's really powerful to become a good question. Ask her

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Adriana Douglas: like as you're saying it is it

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Adriana Douglas: cause? Then that's where the transformation comes through. And also

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Adriana Douglas: knowing that I think the thing that I always got

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Adriana Douglas: tripped up on was feeling like that decision had to be forever like, if if we were doing pizza and tacos heads and tails that I'd be like, oh, man, I'm gonna have to eat pizza for the week. Now, like, I don't want that where it's like.

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Adriana Douglas: just for that meal, or like literally, you could eat it and decide you never want it again.

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Adriana Douglas: like, but not putting so much weight.

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Jen Liss: Yes, I would sit there, and I don't know if that's what I'm trying to do. I don't know if I'm going to be able to do that. I'm not going to be able to do that. I don't know if that's what I'm going to do. I don't know if that's what I'm going to do. I'm not sure if you're going to be able to do it or not. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it or not, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it or not. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it or not, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it or not. I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it or not, I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to do it or not. I'm not sure what I'm going to do.

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Jen Liss: like 4 weeks straight, researching Air Friars, only to finally get the Air Fryer and not like the Air Fryer that I had spent so much time researching it. I get it, I get it. And this new way of making decisions and feeling the decision that you make it's do a yes or no, feel the response, move forward from there, ask a better question. That is, it changed my life, and I believe it could change so many people's lives

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Adriana Douglas: I love. I'm literally, when we hang up. Do that

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Jen Liss: start with a yes or no start with a yes or no. Your questions after that initial, yes or no can be yeses or no's, or they could be. They can be more obscure

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Jen Liss: questions. Cause at least you've got a little bit of information to go off of, if that makes sense, and it does. You talk? You mentioned human design. This can depend, too, on your response. And those sorts of things. If you're really into human design, you know I'm a generator. So this works incredibly well for both manifesting generators and generators. If you're a reflector it could, could. You might have a different decision making process that works best for you.

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Jen Liss: Yeah, is that this is this might be a dumb question. But if you know it is every generator a sacral authority, or is that not? I actually don't think that's I know that might not be true, either. I don't know that much about human design, so I know about myself. Yes, and most of my clients tend to be kind of aligned in that direction, too. But you can shift this process, too, into what works for you. The important thing is going inward

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Jen Liss: after you make a decision, and most of the time we go outward. So it's flipping that.

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Adriana Douglas: as you said, that I'm like light bulbs. And like, yeah, you make the decision. Then you go to like. I don't know. Whoever is around and you're like, did do you like that decision?

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Adriana Douglas: And then when they say something, then you're like, Oh. like, imagine that restaurant example you gave about the talk the enchiladas like, imagine if you were with like 4 friends and you're like

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Adriana Douglas: I really should have. Maybe maybe the Intel would have been better. And then, or if they were like, Yeah, they're so good. I always think about that cause, like, if you have a waiter that tells you everything is good.

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Adriana Douglas: Sometimes I question that a little bit, cause I'm like you. Well, some restaurants. Let's just say maybe some restaurants. Truly everything's good, but

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Adriana Douglas: I can't imagine that they love absolutely adore every single item on the menu, you know, like, so it's like

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Adriana Douglas: you have to know that only you know, only you know your yourself the best, but that it's so powerful because yes, I think at least I can speak myself. Tendency to make the decision. Knee-jerk, reaction. Go tell somebody the decision I made, and then be like, what do you think?

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Adriana Douglas: And then, the minute they say something that's like, not what I wanted. Then you start to question and doubt. And like all the things.

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Jen Liss: yeah, the feedback going and getting feedback from others is later in the process. It's okay to go get feedback on our decisions. But every CEO of any company, ever anybody who has ever made it to that level. They are strong in their knowing that their decision was the the aligned decision. And then they go and they tell the employees, and they tell the leaders, and then they get their feedback. But you've gotta be firm in your own aligned belief in the in

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Jen Liss: whatever choice you've made.

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Jen Liss: and then you move forward, and what that waiter knows. Waiters know this. The waiter who says, Well, everything is good. They know that what they say doesn't freakin matter because you have different taste butts than they have, and you have different experiences, and you like different things. So they're just all they're saying with everything is good is

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Adriana Douglas: I can't tell you what to get. You need to just decide what sounds good to you, and like, I need to go to the next table like.

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Adriana Douglas: So I'm glad that we can sort of summarize the the conversation. There is like

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Adriana Douglas: being firm in your inner knowing. That's such a great place to kind of

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Adriana Douglas: wrap it up as, like all these things that we're doing is to become more solid in our

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Adriana Douglas: inner knowing of the path.

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Jen Liss: less of the external untether from the external come back home to the internal

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Jen Liss: which I love. So thank you so much for for coming on today, and I'd and I'd love to know. How can folks work with you at the moment? Yeah. So I have a breathwork membership that's called brilliant breathwork. And you can find all all about that@genlist.com slash join. You can also join a single session as well. If you don't want to join the full membership. If you just want to sample out some breathwork. And I've also got a podcast called untethered with genlist.

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Adriana Douglas: I love it. Thank you so much. I had such a good time talking to you about this stuff. And I'm definitely gonna go gonna go like for a walk and just let it all sink in.

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Jen Liss: Sounds good. That's also a practice that I highly recommend. After downloading a ton of information. Go for a walk. Go, get outside. Okay, talk to you soon, Jen. Thank you.