Pitch to Pro
Pitch to Pro is the official podcast of Ozark United FC. This will be our platform to tell our story about the club and the special place that we call home, Northwest Arkansas. This is a journey. We want to bring you along for the ride. We'll share what's going on behind the curtain, help educate the community at large about soccer, Our league, and give updates on the progress of the club along the way.
Together, we'll explore and unpack our journey to professional soccer, the magic that is NWA, our community, and talk all things soccer from on the pitch to behind the scenes, telling the story of our club.
Pitch to Pro
Ep. 39 - Her Game Too: Fighting for Equality in Soccer
Natasha Brand and Jenn Ramczyk never had the opportunity to play organized soccer as young girls. Now, they're transforming the landscape for women across America as co-founders of Her Game Too USA.
Growing up in England, Natasha recalls how soccer simply "wasn't for girls" - schools divided sports strictly by gender, leaving girls to play informal street games without proper pathways into the sport. Meanwhile, Jenn's playing career was cut tragically short by injury, redirecting her passion toward fandom and advocacy. Their parallel journeys converged when both independently reached out to Caz May, founder of the original Her Game Too initiative in the UK, hoping to bring the movement stateside.
What makes their work particularly fascinating is how sexism manifests differently across the Atlantic. While British female fans faced blatant hostility with comments like "get back to the kitchen," American women often encounter more subtle forms of discrimination - surprised reactions when they demonstrate knowledge about the game or inappropriate behavior in sports bars. The Her Game Too USA team has also identified unique challenges facing female referees, many of whom lack proper reporting avenues when experiencing abuse.
Operating entirely through volunteer efforts as a registered nonprofit, the team faces considerable challenges in a country five times the size of the UK. Despite their perceived "slow pace," they've already secured partnerships with ten professional clubs while building a network of female club ambassadors across the nation. Their determination speaks volumes about the necessity of their work.
Ready to support this vital mission? Follow Her Game Too USA on social media @hergametoo.us and visit hergametoo.com to learn how you can help create a more inclusive soccer culture for everyone.
Pitch to Pro is the official podcast of Ozark United FC. This will be our platform to tell our story about the club and the special place that we call home, northwest Arkansas. This is a journey we want to bring you along for the ride. We'll share what's going on behind the curtain, help educate the community at large about soccer, our league, and give updates on the progress of the club along the way. Together, we'll explore and unpack our journey to professional soccer, the magic that is NWA, our community, and talk all things soccer from on the pitch to behind the scenes, telling the story of our club.
Speaker 2:Pitch to Pro Podcast is proudly sponsored by PodcastVideoscom by PodcastVideoscom. Podcastvideoscom is Northwest Arkansas' premier podcast recording studio, equipped with industry-leading equipment. The recording studio and services save you time, money and hassle. They are dedicated to helping you create, record and publish high-quality podcasts for your audience. Be sure to check them out today at podcastvideoscom. Hello everybody and welcome back to the Pitch the Pro podcast. I'm your host, wes Harris, managing Director for Ozark United FC, northwest Arkansas' professional soccer club, playing in the United Soccer League. I'm really excited about our episode today. I'm joined by Ms Natasha Brand and Ms Jen Ramczyk, co-founders of Her Game 2 USA. We'll talk about that in a second, but it's an initiative focused on the advancement of women in soccer. To sum it up, there's a whole lot more underneath that which we will get to, but, ladies, thank you so much for joining me today.
Speaker 3:You're welcome. How about us? Yeah, thanks for having us.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. Before we jump into her game too, I always start with this and always love to hear people's stories about how did you guys find the game, how did you get involved in the game, what's your backgrounds, where are you from, and just your, your background and how you found the game. Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3:Yeah, kind of. It's kind of strange for me because none of my family are really football supporters in England, so it was hard, but I guess everybody at school had a team.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 3:And so my local team is Norwich City. And then that wasn't good enough for my friends, so we all had to have a Premier League team, so it was Manchester United as well. Now we're really getting into it, I know, um, so now we're really fighting.
Speaker 2:You guys just have the right partnership here with Liverpool and man U.
Speaker 3:I mean you just get the banter going all day not so much man U when Alex Ferguson left, but die hard. Lifelong Norwich supporter still um and just. There weren't really any options for playing as a kid in england for girls, so street ball yeah pick up games um hanging out, watching the boys play, going to local games in town.
Speaker 3:We live in setford so we had setford town okay um amateur league football, so there wasn't really too much incentive to get in it because none of my family liked it. So mum and dad never took me to watch a game. It just grew through high school I guess. I wasn't allowed on the train to go to Norwich because I went to school in the 80s and we know how hooliganism was yeah, for anybody that wants to understand what Natasha's talking about, just go watch the movie Green Street Hooligans, you'll understand.
Speaker 2:You will understand fantastic film. You should watch it anyway. But well, that's so interesting. And and remind people why was, why were there no opportunities and this is part of getting into her game too and the initiative. But remind people why there there no opportunities and this is part of getting into her game too and the initiative. But remind people why there were no opportunities to play for girls in England at that time.
Speaker 3:I mean, it was just the men's game and many of the professional teams at that point had just started having women play. So another thing in England is we didn't have soccer in school.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:So that's the primary thing, that they were split between girls and boys sports Very much so. So it was never, ever an opportunity for those of us growing up in small town England. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And up until very recently even, I mean as far as history goes right. So, and obviously, things that you know are part of what you guys and the initiative are trying to change, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it wasn't for girls. Yeah, according to boys.
Speaker 2:Well, I have, as a dad of daughters and with a sister and all of that. It's absolutely for girls. It's absolutely for girls. That's one of the things I actually love about soccer is it is the world's game, it is for everyone, full stop period, regardless of where you come from, and all of that. So that's actually one of my favorite things about the sport and why I love it so much. But that's awesome. I I will always support norwich, unless they're playing liverpool, because, um, I actually followed them a little bit because of josh sergeant exactly um we have our token american.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, he's great and he's really found a home there? I think he really has, and they've adopted him quite well as yet, right yeah?
Speaker 3:We're winning. Now he's back from injury.
Speaker 2:A few more goals up front.
Speaker 3:There's a few more.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, Jen, tell me a little bit about you.
Speaker 1:So I got into following soccer and the sport in high school, went to all the boys' games, which is in the fall, and I have a twin sister so we go together and, uh, we got to know the coach and he had us hop on the bus and we got to go to the away games. So we were in part of like manager of the boys team and then when it came time for the girls tryouts, which is in the spring, we tried out, both of us and we both made the team. But I I was only one year, uh, that I played, and my career was very short because of an injury. I got a girl stepped on me as I was turning so it twisted my ankle and that was done. Um, but I was a winger so I ran the whole length of the pitch, so ankles were quite important, um, so then it kind of became just sit back and watch and enjoy the game and really learn the technical side of things and what they're seeing.
Speaker 1:So my dad laughs because I'll even say no, you need to pass to the right, and he sometimes gets frustrated and other times he's like how did you know that? But so I wish I could have played longer, but it kind of makes you, when you're forced offline, to do something differently. And then I started following the Premier League back in 1996. So it's been quite some years, and it was Liverpool from then on. So I've been a Liverpool supporter ever since and I now voyage to my homeland every year, and that's been the last five years.
Speaker 2:I love that. That's actually the year that I became a Liverpool supporter as well, so I love that.
Speaker 1:Just right after the big Champions League comeback, which was 2005.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right this conversation is going downhill 96 for me.
Speaker 2:Um, uk elite is a, a camp program that traveled up and down the eastern seaboard and, um, if you housed, they obviously had overhead. If they brought over you know, coaches from the uk to come and a lot of them were either former academy players or academy coaches or whatever and if you provided housing for them and, you know, fed them and took care of them for the week, then they let your kids go for free. So they're pretty middle class. And my parents were like, yeah, we'll take two, we have two boys that are old enough. We have have two. We have two boys, uh, that are old enough. We have two younger ones, but two boys that are old enough to go. Yeah, so the first time I did that, I was eight and, uh, one of the coaches was from liverpool and played in their academy and coached in their academy, and this was at the very start of, like youtube and internet videos and he, uh, he showed me a bunch of clips of, uh, steven Gerrard and just Liverpool and the greats.
Speaker 2:And um, it spent just a ton of time training with us, you know, and having fun just kicking about in the in the yard after, after training and before training and stuff after the camps, and so from then on I've been a Liverpool fan obsessed and, uh, I still keep in touch with him, so it's pretty fun.
Speaker 1:CBG and Peter Kraus for the reason I became a Liverpool fan which is odd to say, peter Kraus because he played for Liverpool back then and I really liked when he was playing for England during the World Cup and started tracing back and he played for Liverpool and so did Steamy and I did my homework. What does Liverpool stand for? What kind of team are they?
Speaker 2:and I just yeah, no, that's, that's such a good story. Uh, you actually uh would appreciate. Our one of our co-founders, warren Smith, also had a very short uh career in playing uh soccer. He, he, he uh had one game, one minute, and he and he broke his leg uh and and uh ended, ended his uh soccer career. So he always jokes that he had the shortest soccer career. So he was, he was pretty done after that. But I mean so you guys found the game, you know, maybe a little bit later than some, but I mean some of the most ardent supporters of the game and what it does. So what do you love about? What is it that you love about soccer? What drew you to it? Um, as fans, especially you having not played natasha uh as a younger, you know yeah, we just played on the street.
Speaker 3:So from as young as I can remember, playing out growing up was with a football, so it was always there. Even if your parents didn't support it was just part of culture. Everybody played street ball. It was, yeah, it was just normal growing up. So it's been as long as I can remember. And then starting to follow on TV.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And it happened after. So I didn't support Norwich until maybe middle school, high school, but playing was always. I can't remember a time that there wasn't that me and my friends didn't play ball.
Speaker 2:Just outside.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we would just throw hoodies down on the green and outside our houses, the goalposts, and just play.
Speaker 2:That's the magic of it and I love it and I wish we need more of that in the US, in that culture, and it's getting there there, but still a long way to go yet we're very lucky here in fentonville balavista because coach scott at sporting um we've had a lot of success with pickup games and, yeah, the pickup, the pickup games, which are open to everybody, is such a huge part.
Speaker 2:I mean, there was actually an interesting interview, um, or a coach's session or something, I'm not sure, but it was actually from the liverpool academy and they talked about the success of you know, they really wanted to understand the you know, what is the difference between the players that make it out of the academy and into the first team or on to another first team elsewhere? Uh, between them and the players that make it out of the Academy and into the first team or onto another first team elsewhere? Uh, between them and the ones that don't Right, because even once you're in the Academy, you're part of the elite, but then there's a lot, there's more of them that don't make it right. Yeah, then do. And so they were like well, we really want to understand this so we can replicate it.
Speaker 2:And they studied them. They studied what they ate, what they slept, what they read, like, you know, for years and Trent was a part of this, you know, and you know others and they actually found one common thread between all of them, and it wasn't, you know, drive, or determination, or mental health or you know whatever, right footed or anything like that. It was number of minutes played pickup in their youth. Oh, that was the difference, and the players that had played the most pickup growing up actually were the ones. More often than not, that were the ones that that was. What they had in common was how much they played pickup, which is so anathema to the US model. That's a whole other podcast episode.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And makes you frustrated. But uh, it just speaks to the importance of just going out and playing and having fun and getting touches on the ball.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just enjoying it. Falling in love with the game, I think, is the most important part. I love that. Starting them young to fall in love with the game that they follow through is, I think, where we're lacking, because we don't start kids or we're putting too much pressure on the kid when they're young instead of letting them fall in love with it. It's you got to win, like now you're a three-year-old but you got to win you know, kind of thing, and that's where so we're making them fall out of love with it instead of falling in love with it.
Speaker 2:That's such a great point and that's something that I've always tried to be very conscious of, because I am a former player and I am a coach and can be. You know, I did grow up in an era where it was a lot of winning and a lot of pressure, um, so I'm glad that you said that, because I think I actually posted about this a couple of days ago. Um, I think too often it's adults that ruin a game for the kid. 100%, it's above the game for the kid. You know, it's not that they fell from the side, yeah, yeah, parents or even coaches that that are focused on the wrong things, or referees or whatever it is, um, but so often it's it's adults in that kid's life that ruin it. And it's any sport, it's not just soccer, yeah, but if you allow them to find the things that they love and support them and fantastic, obviously, soccer, you know, whatever it is, piano Great. How can I support you? Exactly, right, I'll take it away. Piano Great, how can I support you?
Speaker 1:Exactly Right.
Speaker 2:I'll take it away from you, so talk a little bit about how did Her Game 2, kind of as an initiative movement program, start from the beginning there?
Speaker 1:So in the UK, I think it was six or seven of them.
Speaker 1:They got together and they realized the sexism over there. For them, like just to go to a game, because they're getting told get back in the kitchen, you don't belong here, you know nothing. And all the other comments even worse than that. So a girl named Kaz May may, she, chatting with her other friends, realized this is a problem not just at her team but all of the teams. And, uh, so she got together and decided let's do a video and release this video, um, and see what happens, kind of thing, and and see what happens, kind of thing. And so I created the video. They posted it the day of the FA Cup game because they knew most people are going to be on Twitter that day because you're watching the FA Cup.
Speaker 1:You're going to be involved social media wise and it just skyrocketed, I think in an hour. It was trending, so definitely was a problem and she had, they had a social media page and it just blew up with people following it left and right and I actually watched it on that day. I remember sitting there watching this video, going, wow, you know, kind of like it grabbed your attention. These are people who, if you look at their other social media, they're bubbly, happy people and they look so serious it makes it stand out. Um, so it. That's where it started. And uh, and then I like I said I saw it. It was like we need that here in the states in a different way, because we don't.
Speaker 1:I've been to so many soccer matches because I used to be a season ticket holder for the chicago fire, so I've been to multiple games. I don't hear that stuff. Like I'm good with going. The comments I would hear is you actually know the game? Like in a surprising tone, like you don't say that to a guy when they say something, so why? So it's a different aspect.
Speaker 1:And then also going to the pub that's where I was having my issues. Going to watch a game at a bar or a pub. That's when the sexism would come in and not go back to the kitchen, but the touching or pretending to brush by kind of thing. And that's where I was like, well, I need to talk to Cass and figure out how to bring that here. How do I do that? Like, what did you do there that I can replicate here? And so that's how it came to the States. I met with her, obviously not physically, but we faced time with each other and it was like an hour and a half conversation of just going over everything and she was surprised it actually happened here at the states. She really thought, because of us having the women's soccer and they're blowing up and how good they are, that everybody followed women and loved watching the women play.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to see what people's perceptions are outside of the country or the market right.
Speaker 1:And I was like, whoa, okay, if you're over here you know differently, but it was neat, like you said, it was great to hear that side of it. And then we started working on okay. So she's like, all right, right, you want to bring in the states, I give you full authority to do it. So then the pressure was on me to like make it happen. So we redid the video with americans. So, because we didn't want to just redo her video and repost it, right, um. So she's like can you find a bunch of American girls who have had issues and do the same video? So we did. I reached out to a bunch of people trying to get videos and that's kind of where it kicked off from.
Speaker 2:So how long after the UK group kind of did their video and launch, if you will, to, when you reached out to Kaz and started that?
Speaker 1:they launched. I was probably five months, six months before I, because it was more of a, it was a partly me, because I wanted to ask him right away. Then I'm like so maybe maybe it's not a problem here, maybe it's just me like um. So I started talking to my friends and kind of in my circle of people and going do you suffer anything? Do you have a problem? What would you think? And I was even asking, because I am a part of a club up in near Chicago and I was asking the people there what do you think if I brought this campaign here? What do you do? Because I'm not much of a leader per se, so this was a huge leap for me. So it was like, okay, what do I do here? And everyone was like you need to do it, do it.
Speaker 2:So it took me five months and that's when I reached out to Kaz. Leadership often finds people who aren't looking for it.
Speaker 1:That's it. It's cool. And then.
Speaker 3:Jen didn't find me. I reached out to Kaz about.
Speaker 2:That was going to be my next question. I love this. How did you two meet? Okay, Chicago, Arkansas.
Speaker 3:They got it together in 2021 in the UK and then, like Jen said, she was five to six months in, so it was getting towards the end of the year and I had been following and reached out to Kaz hey, can we get started? Can we get something started like this over here? And she's like funny. You should say that I'm going to put you in touch with Jen Ramsey. She's already asked the same thing, and so by the time I got in contact with Jen, she was in the video planning stage, and so there were six or seven.
Speaker 1:There were six girls, six girls and then ended up being seven yeah, so it.
Speaker 3:It evolved pretty naturally into the lead team yeah um, but we're stretched out pretty far across the states. Our other director is in um, california and san diego. Okay, shout out to amy kate, yeah, um, and so, yeah. So that was it just organically formed here. And, like Jen said, the context of what we see here is, you know, really different in comparison to what we're seeing in the UK. We deal with different things. So we're dealing with female referee abuse. This is a new thing that we've been dealing with here.
Speaker 3:The younger girls come in to speak. They don't know that there is an avenue of reporting not to the state associations, not to their referee assigners. They don't realise there's an avenue, and so we've looked at a lot of different things than the UK. Theirs came in the first year. They spent very much focused on sexism in the stands. Theirs came in the first year. They spent very much focused on sexism in the stands. So female fans, but they've grown into so much more than that as well, with just the general equality topic of grassroots getting young girls involved in the game, role models, everything from staff, referees, female coaches, players.
Speaker 3:It's exponentially grown in the UK and we're finding that it's been a tougher job launching here because we're five times the population. The country is so huge, there's three directors across the country. The population, the country is so huge, there's three directors across the country. Um, we're trying to focus primarily this year on like our areas to grow out, but it's taken us a lot longer. So they have seen in the uk massive success very quickly um 72 out of, or 74 out of 92 professional clubs partnered and ready.
Speaker 3:We have 10 currently, but they are again going back to the contrast of it. There are way more female fans ready to step up and be an ambassador for their club, and that is an area that we're having trouble with here. We would like to have a club ambassador and then the club come on board. Gotcha, and it's the communication here. We're such a large country, we're so spread out, um trying to connect with, you know, more female fans from teams that are hours and hours away. It's a job, and so it may look on the surface that it's very slow moving and it is for us, but there is a lot of cogs and wheels going on in the background well, it's also not a small uh initiative or topic.
Speaker 2:No challenge that you've taken on no so I I don't mean to laugh about it because it's very serious and very important work, but, um, in the spirit of the conversation, adjust in in terms of your, your perceived slow pace, but I, I can especially even me working on this project and perception of what's going on. Guys. There's so much that goes on behind the scenes and so I give you guys a lot of credit and it's all voluntary.
Speaker 3:so all of us work full-time jobs, even hard, to get into the podcast. So yeah, it's just everyone. The UK is completely voluntary-led. The US team is also voluntary-led. We're a 501c3 now. So you know, working on getting funding in the background takes time. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Takes time, well, absolutely Takes time. Well, it's important work and I really appreciate you guys taking up the mantle for it. You know, and as again a father of daughters, and that I want to have every opportunity to play and that my son does and have the same experience, you know, along the, and hopefully a positive one, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:So I thank you guys so much for the work that you're doing. I think we'll leave it there for the first part of our combo, but I'm going to have you guys back, and so thank you again. Natasha and Jen, her Game 2, you can find them at hergame2.com and on all the socials hergame2.us.
Speaker 2:Love that. Thank you very much, jen and Natasha, again, for joining me. We'll see you next time. That's it for this episode of Pitch the Pro. We hope you enjoyed it. Be sure to catch all of our episodes on pitchtheprocom or look for Pitch the Pro on YouTube, spotify, apple or wherever you get your podcasts. For more content Until next time. Northwest Arkansas cheers. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Pitch the Pro podcast. Be sure to tune in again in two weeks for the next installment and check out the Stoppage Time series for a recap of today's episode. Be sure to find us at Pitch the Pro on YouTube, instagram and everywhere you get.