Ep. 56 - Beat the Odds: Pro Soccer Unlocked | With Oakland Roots Midfielder Tommy McCabe

The gap between being great in college and thriving as a pro is smaller than a square of grass, and that’s exactly where Tommy McCabe lives. We sit down with the Oakland Roots midfielder to unpack how a backyard obsession, a London childhood, and the Jersey hotbed launched a journey through youth national teams, Notre Dame, MLS, and the USL Championship. Tommy brings calm clarity to a noisy landscape: the right path isn’t a league acronym, it’s the daily training environment that pushes you while helping you belong.

We dive into the core pro separators, awareness, scanning, and first touch, and why the game gets tighter and faster with every level. Tommy explains how to keep the ball and structure under pressure, how to master the basics without boredom, and why decision-making starts with seeing the right picture before the ball arrives. From there, we talk culture: the best clubs build environment, connection, and belonging. He shares candid insights on roster turnover, improving USL contracts, and the delicate balance between opportunity and stability that shapes a season and a career.

Curious about MLS vs USL differences, player lifestyle, and what promotion and relegation could mean for the American game? Tommy offers a measured view rooted in player welfare and professional standards while still embracing the excitement of higher stakes. We also look ahead to Oakland’s potential on and off the field, training at the former Raiders facility, and turning a historic stadium into a fortress. If you care about player development, coaching, and what truly makes a professional, this conversation will sharpen your lens.

If this resonated, follow and subscribe, share it with a teammate or coach, and leave a review to help more people find the show. What’s the one habit you think separates a pro from the rest?

Transcript

Welcome And Podcast Mission

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Pitch to Pro is the official podcast of Ozark United FC. This will be our platform to tell our story about the club and the special place that we call home Northwest Arkansas. This is a journey. We want to bring you along for the ride. We'll share what's going on behind the curtain, help educate the community at large about soccer, our league, and give updates on the progress of the club along the way. Together we'll explore and unpack our journey to professional soccer, the magic that is NWA, our community, and talk all things soccer from on the pitch to behind the scenes, telling the story of our club.

Sponsor Shoutout

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Pitch2Pro Podcast is proudly sponsored by PodcastVideos.com.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

Podcastvideos.com is Northwest Arkansas's premier podcast recording studio. Equipped with industry-leading equipment, the recording studio and services save you time, money, and hassle.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

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Meet Tommy McCabe

SPEAKER_01 1:07

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the Pitch to Pro Podcast. I'm your host, Wes Harris, Managing Director for Ozark United FC, Northwest Arkansas's Pro Soccer Club playing in the United Soccer League. Guys, I'm really excited about today's guest. I have joining me, Mr. Tommy McCabe, midfielder for the Oakland Roots. Welcome, Tommy, to the show and thank you so much for joining me, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Thanks for having me, Wes. Uh, nice to be here and nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Yeah, man. So, you know, we we've got a ton that we can kind of talk about, Tommy, but I think for folks that kind of may be new to USL or, you know, following the league, give everybody just, you know, we'll dive into all that and your experience as a player. But I think, you know, for me, I always try to

Early Years And Love For Soccer

SPEAKER_01 1:53

start with people's backgrounds. Like, how'd you find the sport growing up? And uh kind of what was your what was your experience growing up in the sport?

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Uh yeah. So I started playing soccer at a really young age. Uh my dad played and was a coach, uh, college, high school level. Um, and that's how he knows your friend, Chris Martinovich. Um, so he was a goalie. I I decided to stay out of goal. Maybe he forced me out of goal, uh, and then just kind of been around the game ever since I was a kid with him. Uh, he coached at St. Benedict's Prep in New Jersey, a very good high school, uh, especially when high school soccer was cream of the crop before um kind of the academy system came around. And so they just being in that environment, meeting people from all over the world uh that were at that school. That was really my first introduction um to the game in a in a team form. And then obviously you're playing in the backyard, um, passing the ball with my dad, uh, just simple things like that. Um, I guess that would be the the soccer form of or throwing the football or having a catch with your dad. Um, those are my earliest memories uh of being around the game and falling in love with it. And then for I think five or six years old, uh, we moved to London for a little bit. So, really at that age where you you really fall up fall in love with sports or or anything really. And I'm I'm over there living in England, um, a huge Arsenal fan. And so having

Youth National Team And Notre Dame

SPEAKER_02 3:22

those two experiences together, I think really just made me fall in love with it even more and just opened a deeper level of that. And then afterwards, um we moved back to New Jersey, which I think is a great soccer area, uh, a lot of diversity, um, some great clubs. Uh, so I think that's really benefited my career. And then after that, I was part of the U-17 residency program for the national team and just being exposed to to high-level, high-level players at that level um across the world, playing in World Cup qualifiers, the youth world cup. Um, that was maybe my first taste of all right, I want to do this um as a as a profession and feel like I I treat myself as a pro and and can pursue that. And so then after that, uh I went to University of Notre Dame for three years and then was was drafted to FC Cincinnati and spent two years in MLS before kind of bouncing around uh USL as well.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Uh well, first and foremost, uh Arsenal fan, you're having a uh a decent time of it this year, aren't you?

SPEAKER_02 4:26

Yeah, I've I've enjoyed it. My my parents actually live over there right now and they live in the neighborhood of of North London. Um, they have season tickets, and when I'm back home for the holidays, I will go to games as well. So it's I saw five games this past offseason, and all of them were wins for Arsenal, so it was it was really good.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Oh, that's awesome. That's awesome. Um uh diehard Liverpool myself, but uh so we're we're struggling a little bit this year. We're riding the struggle bus, but that's okay. Um, you know, coming off a decent season there where there was really no expectation. But

US Soccer Hotbeds And Pickup Culture

SPEAKER_01 5:01

um well, cool. I I think uh I definitely agree with you in turn uh back to your Jersey soccer hotbed comment. Uh grew up myself in Maryland. So I played a ton of tournaments and all kinds of teams from Jersey and the Philly area, and that whole kind of tri-state area was massive soccer hotbed, a ton of diversity, you know, playing against kids that were just from all over the world, um, which, you know, when you get that type of an environment in melting pot, you're bound to come across some incredible players.

SPEAKER_02 5:34

So yeah, I I would say the same. And I think uh there's a lot of players around my age that are playing professionally. I think that's really cool. There's a great pickup scene when you go back now as a pro and you're like, wow, this this area's quite talented.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yeah, I think that's the thing that I wish, and Chris and I talk about this a lot. Uh, the thing you wish you saw more in the US is just you know, pickup culture and just seeing street soccer, you know, we would play in the cul-de-sac kind of thing uh growing up. But you know, we'll we'll get there maybe one day, hopefully.

Navigating Pathways: Academy, College, Overseas

SPEAKER_01 6:09

So uh, but I think you talked about you talked about it a little bit, but you talk a little bit about your experience kind of on on, you know, once you decided, maybe, maybe a little bit before you officially decided that you wanted to be a pro, but you were kind of getting closer to that, you know, elite level journey that maybe was that stepping stone for you. Because I think there's so many questions out there now, like Alphabet Soup League, like XYZ. Uh, do I go to college? Do I go to academy? Do I skip both of those and go play overseas professionally somewhere? Or, you know, I and I think everybody's journey is different, but I would love the perspective of a current pro player who's kind of gone through that system and path and had to navigate that not too long ago and just kind of I don't know, offer up your thoughts a little bit on, you know, if you were having to redo that today, how would you approach that as a player?

SPEAKER_02 7:12

Um, so maybe this will be uh one section of an overarching theme where I think when people analyze the American soccer landscape, there's I think more complainers than problem solvers. Um so I think it's it's very easy to highlight some of the the issues that we currently have. Um and just the the greater infrastructure, it's such a large country, and the current landscape is there are a lot of paths. And you could maybe say, hey, that's that's a bad thing we don't have, to your point about Alphabet Soup. Um there's so many different leagues, it's so easy to get lost in it, um, which is I I think all true. Um, and you see that happen here, and I think that's just youth player development across the board, across the world for so many different factors. Some are within a player's control, some are not. Um, but I would I would tend to like to look at it with more of a positive light um and some of the kind of solutions

Solutions Over Complaints In Development

SPEAKER_02 8:12

with it. And I think to your point, there's there's so many different ways um to get from point A to point B, especially in our country. Uh, and so I was very fortunate to be part of the youth national team. Um, where to your point, that such a big country, the scouting network, um, maybe doesn't meet the meet the level of infrastructure, and that's where being in a hotbed like New Jersey, I I benefited from. Um, and so I was able to get in front of people, played for an academy, um, players development academy, PDA, which is kind of one of the better non-MLS academies, um, and was seen there and then was in in those camp environments. And I think in those environments, um, maybe it's kind of uh intrinsic motivation, but I mean the respect for myself and wanting to do well, wanting to show the best version of myself, um, and just doing the little things, and maybe that's the type of player I am as well. Uh, I think I'm I'm able to show well in those camps, maybe not on the first day or the second day, but over the course, course of time. Uh, and then when you get into the residency environment um kind of day in, day out, week after week, being able to do that and and stack days on top of each other, which I think is a very big part of being a pro, um, I was able to do that um even more so than just kind of a 10-day window. Um, and so I I think I definitely, definitely had success in that environment. And then when you kind of stack these days on top of each other, weeks on top of each other, and you feel like, hey, I I really like and love this rhythm where everything is kind of geared around soccer, my daily routines, the way I think about soccer, the way I think about life is kind of all geared around the game. Um, and just being exposed into that, I I felt I got better and sort of fell deeper in love with the game as a as a profession and and a way of life. Um and so that's maybe why I feel like with my development pathway, I was able to make the most of it. And I could I could totally see a different side where people maybe aren't in a hotbed, aren't in part of part of these academies and this like ever-changing landscape. How do you how do you navigate that? Um and I I think it is really co complex right now. Um and maybe that's it, that's a problem, but I think generally speaking, I like to be more solution-oriented. Um, and I felt like I was able to find some solutions given um my background and some of the pathways that I had, uh, even though I I definitely know that I was in a hotbed, I was in a good environment, uh, and definitely benefited from those. So if you want some advice for kind of people looking for for clubs and trying to navigate that pathway, for me it has less to do with um the alphabet soup league you play in and what team you're in. It's it's more about the the daily environment and the and the training environment and and matching that up where as a parent or a kid, you feel like you're you can develop and

What Truly Separates Pros From Amateurs

SPEAKER_02 11:13

get the most out of yourself in there. And then who knows what happens after that. I think you see in college right now that's a changing landscape for domestics and and international players. Uh, so just get in an environment where you feel like you're getting the most out of yourself as a person and a player. I I think can take you a long way. But also if if it doesn't take you as far as you'd like, I think you can I would like to think you can sit back afterward and say, I I I gave it everything. I felt like I got better as a player and a person, um, and and go from there.

SPEAKER_01 11:44

No, it's huge, um, huge insight and great advice. So um appreciate your perspective. And you know, you kind of you you talked a little bit about it there in terms of kind of your intro your inherent, you know, internal motivation there, and um but in terms of like what does it take, you know, to kind of be a a pro. You've played at multiple elite levels on your journey, right? Whether it's club, the residency, youth national team, uh, you know, very good, respected D1 college program, MLS, now USL. What is the difference? Everybody, I always anytime I have a chance to ask this of somebody that can offer an opinion on both, I do ask it. What is the difference between a player that may be a really good college player, but maybe doesn't cut it at the next level at the pro level? What is what is the delta there that makes that difference for the jump from you know the the highest amateur or semi-pro or college or whatever it is level that you're kind of talking about there up to the pro level as a player? What are some of the things that you notice that are different about the players that make it versus those that struggle that may have been you thought were kind of good at the the prior stage? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 13:20

Yeah. Um

Awareness, Scanning, And First Touch

SPEAKER_02 13:23

so I don't watch a ton of college soccer these days. So I this is maybe more based on my experience as a player and kind of looking back on that and then the the levels afterwards. Um, and I think generally speaking, there's just less time and space each level you move up. Um so I I think college is a bit more open, um more pressing, more back and forth, more transitions. Um, and so some of those players, which is not me, um, are in a bigger spotlight in that moment. But then when you move to to maybe a higher level, maybe those moments that those players excel in happen less often or happen with less time and space. So you need maybe a a little bit of a different skill set um or or kind of add on to your to your previous skill set, right? Because that's still, I think, very valuable across the world where if you're very fast, if you're quite good at transition, I I think those are always lethal moments. But then um, I would say along with the less time and space, um, it's just doing the simple things right over and over. So just getting really good at the basics. Um, and it's it's quite boring and monotonous. Um and we we just had one today. So we're in the second full week of preseason, um, and we're kind of doing pattern work and there's no opposition. It can be boring, but it's like, how well do you hold your yourself to that level of just doing the basics really, really well? Um, whether there's an opposition, whether there's not, whether there's a coach there, whether there's not. Um, so I think the people that and I'm maybe projecting for people at an even higher level than me, um, that that's something that they take a lot of pride in. Uh, and then I think with the time and space stuff as well, I I would say maybe I don't, there's no rule of thumb for this, but it kind of generally speaking, maybe in in college, a typical like structured or organized attack, defense, defensive moment, um, maybe is played in kind of 40 yards wide by 50 yards long. And then in maybe USL it's um 30 yards wide, 40 yards long, and then maybe in MLS it's 10 yards or five yards, even shorter than that. And then in European football and international football, it's even shorter than that. And so the time and space you have between lines um and under pressure is is just that much shorter. And I think the players that can uh do really well in those moments, uh, I think open up the game, but also um allow you to to keep the ball a bit more or keep your shape a bit more, and so you're not exposing yourself to to kind of crazy transition moments. Um, so I think as you move up, those would be the two things

Daily Life Of A Pro

SPEAKER_02 16:05

I think it kind of boils down to is just doing the basics really, really well. Uh, and then when you're kind of in uh in a game or in practice, like how how well can you um operate with less time and space than you just previously came from in that environment? So I think one of the best ways to do that, or two best ways, would be your first touch, um, and then just scanning. So you're just uh kind of constantly taking in the pictures around you. And I think those go hand in hand. So if you're always understanding where space is and and where you want to keep the ball, where you want to pass the ball, um, and then you have a good foot first touch that can take you there, I think you can you can operate in uh much less time and space as well.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Uh a quick shout out to my U-10 boys. You just heard a professional soccer player verbatim what Coach West has been saying for the last four years.

SPEAKER_02 16:59

So it's it's not always the it's uh not always the message um that changes, but it's the person who gives it sometimes where it clicks for kids.

SPEAKER_01 17:08

Well, that's right. That's totally it like uh you know, it's like you're you know, you'll get there one day, maybe if you want to have kids one day. But it's yeah, if it's mom or dad saying it, nope, it's the coach saying it. Unfortunately, I am coach and dad, so I have to uh get it from others out there, but who else to get it better from than a pro player? But I think that that's you know, you start to get some consistencies amongst those, whether it's coaches, players, current or past. I mean, you know, how well do you operate in small small spaces, less time, under pressure, can do the little things and repeatable with consistency and be that reliable, you know, person. Don't give the ball over in in you know bad spots, um, you know, but still be brave enough to try to take the things, you know, and it's those decision-making moments, right? Um that I mean, the game that's what the game is. It's the I mean, other than the technical side, it's and and having a good first touch, you can develop that over time with practice.

MLS Vs USL: Levels And Movement

SPEAKER_01 18:09

But if you can't get the decision-making part right, you know, that's that's the fun chess game um that I've always enjoyed about soccer.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

The um the one, and I'm I'm hoping I'm quoting this well, um, but to your point on decision making, I think there's a great Arson Venger quote about having youth development the wrong way around, where a lot of people teach execution, um, where it should be more geared towards awareness. And when you're aware of more of your surroundings, then you can work on uh decision making. And then from the decision making, how are you executing those decisions? Um, so are you are you aware of all the possible decisions that you could be making? Um, if you are, are you choosing the right one? And then if you're choosing the right one, how well are you executing it?

SPEAKER_01 18:58

And I think that that's also an interesting um I've seen that quote, and it is it is hard um as kind of you know, youth coach and and knowing that that is ultimately what separates and good players along the journey is decision making. Because that you know, you get if you dedicate the time, anybody can develop a really good first touch. If as long as you're willing to put in the time and and go and find a wall or or whatever it is, you can develop a good first touch. But it's the decision making that really separates people and players, and that scanning frequency is really, really hard to teach. And so the quicker that you can become better at that, at it in your development, the better you're gonna be. At the same time, though, you still have to be able to receive the ball, trap the ball, pass the ball, shoot the ball, all those things. As you're learning that. So it's like, you know, it's this, it's, but I I agree where I think there's an overemphasis on developing um almost like pre-built like set plays, if you will. Like you're gonna, the six is gonna pass here to the, you know, and then this is how

What Makes A Great Club Culture

SPEAKER_01 20:20

we work it up the field, guys. And this is you, no, no, you're supposed to pass to Johnny this way, versus giving people and and you know, players the freedom to analyze the game moments as they come and then make decisions and talk about it and you know, uh help them develop those processing skills within their own brains, right? And that's a much more abstract um tall task on teaching seven, eight, nine, ten-year-olds. But it's important because that's ultimately what separates them ten years down the line. So, uh, but yeah, I've seen that I've seen that quote, and it's kind of it's it's fun. Um then you get like the quarter guys that are you know a little bit different school of thought on all the technical all the technicality. It's it's interesting. I don't know, you can go down a lot of rabbit holes on on content out there, but um I appreciate your perspective on those and you know, kind of advice to players and what to focus on. And because I know that's a lot of the questions that we get, and especially as we have our our um, you know, we launched our boys' academy, so we have a U13, a U19 on the MLS next uh Academy division side, and get a lot of players and parents asking, you know, my you know, my kid didn't make it or whatever, what can they work on? How can they get better? And our coaches do a great job and and all that, but those are questions that I know that everybody has uh kind of as they're on that journey and and hearing from pro players on their perspective is is super helpful from those that are in it. So on that note, what's it like, man, playing in the USL championship and MLS and on the international stage? Like, what's it like being a pro player?

SPEAKER_02 22:11

Um, I mean, I I love it. Um this is what I wanted to do since I was a kid, and maybe the dream is different than the reality as well. Um and I think every kid dreams of if they want to be a pro, they want to do it at the highest level. Um, and then it maybe becomes I want to do this at the highest level possible because um I'm not in the Premier League right now, I'm not playing on the international stage um as a full senior member. Um, but there's still a a kid's dream in here involved, and there's a love and passion for it, and and that's one of the main reasons why I still do it. Um, and then on on the day-to-day aspect of okay, what's it like? Uh, I think it changes based on the environment you're in. Um, but the daily rhythm is some version of okay,

Roster Turnover And Contract Reality

SPEAKER_02 23:01

you wake up, you go to the training ground, um, you kind of have meetings, get yourself physically ready for training. You have training, um, kind of varies in the length of time, but then you're probably done around noon, and then you have some maybe a lift or some recovery uh with lunch afterwards, and then most of the time, maybe a follow-up meeting, but most of the time you're back home around somewhere between 2 and 4 p.m. And then there's a lot of downtime uh afterwards. And I think when you maybe look at the the highest levels possible, there there is a lot of downtime, maybe some some boredom as well. Um, and you have to recovery is so important that you have to really take care of yourself, relax uh mentally, physically to get yourself ready for the next day. Because over the course of a 10, 11, even 12-month season for some of these guys, um, it it becomes uh a lot. And so finding those those daily moments where you can kind of peak with your stress and your activity, but then also recover is is really important as well. Uh and then currently, um here in Oakland, I've got a maybe a bit of a different rhythm than I've I've had at any club I've had before. Uh where now I'm I'm living with my girlfriend in San Francisco. I I bike and then take the ferry and then bike again to training. So most of the time I drive. Um, and so I think that's been a really cool thing for me as well, where I'm I

Promotion/Relegation And Player Welfare

SPEAKER_02 24:28

look forward to my commute. I'm kind of out with the wider public, kind of understand the city and community that are communities that I'm representing, uh, because I feel like San Francisco and Oakland um have different communities. Um but so that's that's been really fun uh as well. But it it does also take a little bit, a little bit more time as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

No, that's that's a great insight into kind of what goes into a normal, and I say normal loosely, uh, as you said, kind of day. It changes, it's different depending on the club you're at, what kind of part of the season are you at, um, that kind of thing. Is there a difference as a player? You know, we kind of always ask, and and maybe there is, uh, between, and you've played these guys uh either for them or against them in like US Open Cup matches, but like people always ask, like, what's the difference between USLC and and MLS? Can you offer any insight as to kind of what the the level is is like and what's different about it uh that that kind of you've experienced or can share?

SPEAKER_02 25:36

Uh yeah, I think in a in a couple ways. So first, I think from a domestic level, there's a lot of uh Americans that kind of play regularly in MLS that maybe are in and around the national team. Um so the kind of consistency of minutes they've gotten, their ability, uh, I think has helped them. And then I think on the back half of MLS rosters and and USL rosters, you see some interchange between them, whether it's players that have okay, stuck around on kind of reserve

What’s Next For Tommy And Closing

SPEAKER_02 26:06

contracts or back end of the roster subs um in in MLS that now are kind of playing more regularly in the USL. Uh, and then you see some MLS players that maybe don't feel like they're playing a lot and come down to to USL championship on a loan. Uh so I think that's quite common. And then I think from a kind of higher-end roster budget standpoint, there's a lot more possibilities on on who the MLS can sign from a talent level based on the money they have, the international spots they have, and and all the different kind of roster mechanisms, just the overall size of the roster. Um, the budgets they have are bigger, and and that kind of ties into some of the commercial revenue and and all that. Um so I'd say there's there's definitely differences on that end. Um, but I think some of the maybe kind of back half um MLS rosters, there's been some kind of change up and down for for a lot of those players. Maybe they came down on loan, did really well, went back, had developed, and then have more minutes now and are pushing it um with their MLS side as well. So I I think there's there's a common trend in that as well. And then it's up to, I think you see a lot more MLS clubs have become uh more foreign. And so maybe they they just have pure number wise less Americans or less Americans with college or USL experience in that environment. Um, so then it's hard to to kind of compare apples to apples in that one.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah, no, it's good insight. I think, and you know, you've you yourself have have bopped around and experienced, you know. Uh forgive me if I get this wrong, but what are ninth pro club experience now?

SPEAKER_02 27:48

Obviously, I don't even I don't even keep track. So they you're making it sound a lot worse than it is right now for me.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Uh I mean I depending on like loans, if you count those out and and that kind of thing. I count them, yeah. Okay, I guess the supermarket's right. It usually is. So so um, you know, eighth or ninth, we'll we'll call it a a good number of clubs in in an experienced player. Let's let's put it that way. You you've you've been a part of good clubs, great clubs, you've been a part of you know, championship winning clubs. What what's kind of those key things that separate clubs and organizations from each other within the league that you know you're you're you're really happy, you're super um excited to be there at that club, and you're just you love the way it's run and your experience there versus some of the others. You don't have to name, you know, club names or anything like that. I don't want to put you on the spot there, but just what are the what are some of those things that you know clubs can do and can control that make the experience better, you know, for players?

SPEAKER_02 28:59

Uh I think quickly with the this kind of ties in with the day in the life. Um there isn't any sort of normalcy with this. Um we play sports for a living, there's money involved, there's extreme emotions involved, and that's even kind of tenfold on the ownership organizational level. Um, so I think that makes for an interesting recipe. And I would not say there's a a one-size fits-all for kind of what makes a successful club, blueprint-wise, from kind of start to finish. But I I would say I'm I'm quite big on just kind of environment, connection, um, and belonging. So I think kind of the daily environment that you as a player walk into and and feel a part of and contribute to uh impacts that. And I think from top down, that's equally as important. So I think it goes both ways. The the players kind of establish that that daily environment because they're the product that's getting put out on the field. But I think the the organization is also um responsible for that as well. And then I think to the point about kind of emotions being involved in this, um, connection is a huge part as well. I I think that's maybe over over time, one of those kind of emotional drugs that I I've been more obsessed with um finding. And you you get involved with great people, and I think that goes to the environment. It just becomes a lot more enjoyable. Um, and you feel like you get to know people on a deep, deeper level, you get to know them as players, and then with that connection, you can kind of put together some some really good sequences um on the field that that are just I think really fun to be a part of. And then again, connection and and belonging. I think we all kind of want to be belong to something that's bigger than ourselves. Um, that's why these clubs exist, they bring community together. You you want to belong to something. I think it's the same for players. Um, and so I think I think that's having those, whatever environment you're in, or sorry, whatever club you're in, uh if you have those three, and they they can look very, very different. Um, and I think there's different motivations for clubs on short term v long term. Um, I mean, I was at Orange County, we won the league, and then we finished last in the Western Conference the next year. So there's clearly something that went really well uh in the short term and then fell flat the next year. So it's it's that's the other thing is it can it can change and it's very delicate um from year to year. And I so I think there's a there's a ton of respect for the clubs that kind of stack really good years on top of each other. Um, even if they don't maybe win it every year, but they're consistently there winning the regular season in our league, that would be Louisville. I I don't, to my knowledge, they haven't won the kind of playoff system the last three years, but I think either two of the three or all three, but I think just two, they've won the regular season. So clearly they're doing something quite well um on the day-to-day environment aspect. And then I honestly uh we didn't win last year, um, but last year was probably one of my more enjoyable years. Uh I think far more enjoyable um than the year that I actually did kind of end up a winner of the league. Um, so I think you know that makes you reevaluate like a yes, we all want to win and we're all really competitive, but what else kind of is defined by winning? And so I think those three things that I I just mentioned um kind of give you a maybe a wider or more holistic sense of winning that you look back on um five, 10 years uh with more memories. Um, and so that's something that I I really enjoyed. And if people follow the USL closely enough, um we went through an ownership change kind of at the beginning of the year, and there was a whole lot of uncertainty that was going on, but we somehow kind of bonded together in the short term, uh, created our own kind of unique little environment within that um that we really benefited from on and off the field. And so I wouldn't say that's a a recipe for sustained success um with you know an ownership change, four GMs in one season, but I think with the group that we had, it it really, really worked. And so that's that's the other thing um with some of that connection, is each group is very different, even if you're playing at the same club each year. Um so I think clubs that evolve year after year create that environment that um is bigger than kind of any individual. Uh, and then they have people that connect on a deeper level and then feel like they belong to to something, I think is really powerful.

SPEAKER_01 33:34

Yeah, I think that's those are all really awesome um insights that I'm super super happy you touched on. Most of them are cultural. Um, you know, I mean, you got to put an environment in place, like that's facilities, that's all the things that go into that. There's some physical things that that create that and drive that, but a lot of that as well is is the culture and and being a part of something and being a part of a vision and a mission and and feeling everything ladder up to that and everybody everybody being on the same page. Um, and I think that that's you know, you sometimes you have those adverse moments, right? Like you talked about with Loudoun last year. Um, you know, and and is that an ideal thing that you would wish upon a club or a player? Uh probably not, usually, objectively speaking, right? But if, you know, you you have choices in those moments as an organization, as a club, as the the players on the field in the locker room, and it sounds like and it looked like from you know results and how you guys were playing and the way that you spoke about the experience was you guys made the choice to kind of use that as a rallying point and kind of come together and make the best of what you had and you know found some joy in that experience. So I think to your point, it's it it's a lot like the player pathway. There's no cookie-cutter um, you know, recipe for success, I guess. And you also hit on a little bit, and I want to ask you what it's like. The the teams and the clubs that can consistently compete, you know, on the field is especially difficult in the USL because I mean I don't know the stat, but if I were to throw out a guess that 40-ish to 50% of your roster turns over every year, um, because a lot of the contracts are like one year, two years, three years at most, um, on a lot of on a lot of players, um, you know, that there's a lot of movement. And so when your roster changes that much, it's kind of hard to put a consistent performance out there year after year to your point. So what is that like, I guess, as a player? Um is it, you know, you just kind of deal with it on I'm here for the year and I don't know where I'm going next year. Is there a you know a certain level of you know uncertainty there, or do you just kind of navigate it, roll with it, you understand what it is, and and you just play best that you can and you take the opportunities as they come?

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Um I think there's a lot there. Uh so quickly, I think the length of our contracts in USL have improved. Um, kind of over the course of my time in the league. You're now seeing more multi-year guaranteed contracts, which I think is good for some of these lifestyle life cycles of clubs. Um, but it's also not long enough where if you're not doing well, you can kind of reset and and find different answers. But some of these clubs can now kind of have continuity, um, kind of plan in advance because they've had people on two, maybe three-year contracts, which is which is great. Um, I wouldn't say it's on the four, five, six-year level of some of the kind of really elite performing clubs that establish a life cycle of four to five years where they're challenging for trophies year after year, and you know who's who's going to be at the top, which is, again, very entertaining. Um, because who's competing for kind of first, second, third can change every year. Uh, there is that hope, there is that possibility of that. On the flip side, um, with some of the shorter term contracts, or if you know you're out, um, it can kind of be a bit of a toxic, cancerous situation as well, uh, especially if you're if you're not challenging um for a title or even playoffs, or you're just like, hey, we got one game in playoffs and then we're done. I think there's um also a reality of self-preservation. I'm just moving on to the next one, and there's nothing to fight for at the bottom end of the table to kind of keep people interested and motivated, if that were the case uh as well.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Well, on that note, nothing to fight for at the bottom of the table. Uh USL's come out with some uh pretty landscape-changing news in the last year, and another one dropped today on official naming of the uh Division I new tier league in 2028 and instituting Pro Rel as a player. What are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 38:14

Um, I think the concept of Pro REL is great. Um, but we are in kind of CBA negotiations right now as well. Um, and I'm um kind of more concerned with with the current welfare of players uh with minimum contracts, um, just like quality and standard of life and professionalization of the league as as USL championship first, um, because that is the the current existing ecosystem we're in. Um so there's a priority there, but I mean, as players, you're all for kind of improved quality, improved stakes, and and we're here to to help them and the stakeholders in that as well. But um I I think that we're more concerned kind of with with the current context as well.

SPEAKER_01 39:02

Yeah, I think that that's helpful context as well. I mean, you know, you want to see things grow, but you want to see them grow on both sides. And um, you know, to your point, I know the players association and and the league are are kind of trying to well, we won't get it too much into that, but let's just say there's work to be done to figure it out. How about that?

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Yeah, and I I would the one thing I would add to that is uh when you say both sides, there's there's really three parties at the table. Um, there's players and the players union, and then there's clubs and the league. And so I think there's three stakeholders, um, and maybe it's masked as two behind players, players union, and clubs is league is one single entity, and it's it's not. It's not. No, that's a really good point to call out. Yeah. And so I think that when you've got three people at a table uh with all different priorities, uh, wanting to push the league forward and wanting to hold each other accountable and all have skinny. In the game. And I think it's it's an uneven set of kind of a ratio proportion in in that's in that sense right now. Um, where I think maybe some people feel like they're taking on too much skin, uh, whereas as others I don't think have a ton of skin in the game with this. And so I think if you want to push with Pro Rel and and kind of improve pro professionalization across the league, I think that equation needs to be balanced more.

SPEAKER_01 40:24

Sure. And I think that's you know a fair point. Obviously, you need to be able to attract, like any organization, you need to be able to attract and retain top talent. And to be able to do that, you need to have to your point, and what makes good clubs? The right environment, connection, belonging, and good environment to be able to be in. So all those things kind of come into play. And you know, there's growing pains as you grow, but at the end of the day, you got to figure it out and make sure that you still have a sustainable uh model and system for everybody involved. So well, what's ahead for you, man? I I I know we're in preseason now. You're with the roots, you're back, you know, out to California, you got your close proximity to the girlfriend. That's gotta be nice. Uh, you know, what what are you uh what are you looking forward to? What's next for you? What's on the horizon? You know, you're you're still uh kind of as objectively as you look at across soccer players, and you're you're you're in your prime years. So uh what are what are your thoughts? How are you thinking about your career? What's next? Um, not to put you on the spot, but just what's on the what's what's on the horizon for you, Tommy? What are you looking forward to?

SPEAKER_02 41:39

Yeah, so I think I'm really excited to be here in Oakland. Uh I think this this club has a ton of potential. Um, and so I I really want to help it realize that potential, um, both on the soccer and just like the global brand as well. Um, I think they do a really good job. We have great resources here um to kind of make yourself feel like a top professional. Uh so I for people that aren't familiar with this, we train at the old Oakland Raiders facility. Um, and it's just us there with our Academy Project 510. Um, so I think that's a fantastic facility in our league. And like you said, I've been around a few of those. So I've got some experience of what's quality, what's not, and and this is right up there with the best of them. Uh and then from stadium standpoint, I we play in the Coliseum. I haven't actually played there yet, but I bike past it and it's like a landmark in this area. There's a ton of history, a ton of winning and championships in that stadium. Uh currently, and I think the club has has really big ambitions, and I think that matches up with what I want out of my career and post-career. And and then, like I said, there's some external motivation to make this work out from a quality of life standpoint. I think it's a great area to live in. Um, and then with my girlfriend here as well, it's like I I don't want to leave. Um, so I'm here for the next couple of years and and would love to be super successful um and and make the most of it. And as long as you know I'm enjoying playing and uh the environment that I'm in here, uh there's no reason to leave.

SPEAKER_01 43:15

Yeah. No, I appreciate that, man. And uh it's um you talked about the the global brand. They always have some of the sickest kits. Always. So you're gonna you're gonna be looking pretty pretty solid this year um in in your kit. So uh at least if nothing else, man, you got that going for you. Exactly. Exactly. Well, Tommy, man, I won't take up too much more of your time. So thank you so much, man. Is there anything else that you want to throw out there for folks? But uh, I'll give you the last word. No, we we covered a lot.

SPEAKER_02 43:51

So it was it was great to talk with you. And yeah, I I think I talked enough already.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Well, listen, we really appreciate you taking the time to join us and your perspective and insight and just wish you all the best in your your new club endeavor and and everybody there in Oakland. And uh I can't say I wish you all the best with Arsenal, but uh it does look like you guys are kind of there. But uh who knows? You may get spurned by City. I won't put that evil out in the universe, but uh it's happened to me a lot in the last six years. Anyway, thank you, Tommy, so much, man, for your insight and for joining us. I appreciate it. Perfect. Thanks again, Wis. Awesome. That's it for this episode of Pitch the Pro. We hope you enjoyed it. Be sure to catch all of our episodes on pitchapro.com or look for pitch to pro on YouTube, Spotify, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast for more content. Until next time, cheers, Northwest Arkansas.

SPEAKER_00 44:45

Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Pitch the Pro podcast. Be sure to tune in again in two weeks for the next installment and check out the stoppage time series for a recap of today's episode. Be sure to find us at Pitch2Pro on YouTube, Instagram, and everywhere you get your podcasts. Until next time, Northwest Arkansas, cheers.