This Is Soul Therapy

14. Through the Viewfinder: Stories of Presence And Creative Discovery With Photographer Celina Bailey

• Jennifer Hulley

Share episode

Embarking on my photographic journey began innocently, framing the whims of a goldfish in the lens. This week, we delve into the profound impact of photography on healing and growth, tracing my evolution from an amateur capturing goldfish antics to a professional with a perpetual lens companion. Photography, for me, transcends a mere hobby; it's a therapeutic odyssey beckoning us to cultivate mindfulness and deepen our connection with our inner selves.

Join me in this episode, as I sit down with the incredibly talented Celina Bailey, a creative photographer sharing life's intimate moments through her lens. Our conversation is a celebration of the present, exploring how constraints, like a roll of film with a limited 24 exposures, paradoxically expand our creative horizons. Celina's tales unfold as a testament to the art of photography, vividly painting images of children's laughter and the serene hush of a Canadian winter through her documentary lens. Together, we unravel the core of photography as a transformative journey, where the process itself becomes a mindful practice.

As the shutter clicks in this episode, we reflect on the joyous spectacle of creation, akin to fireworks bursting over Disney World—a reminder that the beauty of photography isn't just in the end result but in the sensory-rich journey to achieve it. I invite all who find solace in the click of a shutter to share their passions, projects, and stories. Whether you're a seasoned photographer or just dipping your toes, there's a space here for exploration, creation, and perhaps the discovery of a new direction for your craft. Join Celina Bailey and me as your guides on this expedition into the boundless realm of photography, where every snapshot is a stride toward personal fulfillment.


There's lots of ways we can work together!

Below is an always updated roll call of what's on offer:


Tap here to get The Manifesting Magic Playbook


Tap here to Apply for Coaching

Tap here for the Flow & Expand Creativity Planner

Tap here for Therapeutic Art Journals

Tap here to join Friday Feels, a free weekly newsletter




FIND JENN ONLINE:

Web:www.jenniferhulley.com

Email contact@jenniferhulley.com

TikTok @jenniferhulley

IG: @jenniferhulley

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@jennifer.hulley


Speaker 1:

This is Soul Therapy. I'm Jen Hully, your host and therapeutic arts practitioner, creativity coach and photographer, obsessed with empowering others to build creatively fulfilling lives. This week we're talking about narrowing your focus to broaden your awareness. We're looking at mindfulness and limitations through photography to enhance creativity. And that is a mouthful, if you are still with me, welcome. Welcome.

Speaker 1:

This episode, like I said, is all about the transformative power of photography as a therapeutic tool, as a creative tool and a very, very powerful tool for personal growth. And yeah, a little bit biased here, I am a photographer. That is my medium of choice, that is my trade, that is my passion. I have been taking photos since I was like three years old when I grabbed my mom's SLR in the 80s and propped it up on the back of the chair and took a very blurry, out of focus, however very artfully composed photo of my goldfish at the time, and so for me it's just been an extension of who I am. But as I have been investigating and learning and working within therapeutic art more and more in addition to my background in psychology right, it's all kind of converging here but as I went into therapeutic art and learned more about it, I was like photography is, like legit, the perfect way to tap into this, to tap into the power of healing and self expression, and there's so many reasons because of that, but like the number one is excuses. Okay, excuses are like the number one barrier between us and our act of making. We talk about creative resistance and, in a nutshell, creative resistance is just the bullshit that we tell ourselves that's going to stop us from making something or taking action. It's things like I'm too tired, I don't have the right tools, this is going to take too long, I don't know how to do this, I my hands hurt, I can't hold a pen, like whatever. Right, we are really really good at coming up with lots of reasons of why we can't engage with something, and digital photography specifically, has the power to just wipe the bullshit off the table and be like none of that applies. Your excuses do not have space here.

Speaker 1:

Let's get going, and I say this because I guarantee you that you have a phone with a camera on it within arms reach right now and, in fact, there's a good chance you're probably holding onto your phone right now. Every single one of us, I'll say disclaimer, not every single one of us, but the majority of us especially us listening to this podcast have access to a camera. It may not be a DSLR, it may not be like a mirrorless camera, it might not be Fuji or Sony or Canon or whatever, but in fact that's actually better because then you don't have to learn so much. The like barrier to entry in the learning curve is very, very small when we're talking about mobile photography and, like I said, photography is, hands down, the most accessible way to engage with art making and creativity, whether it's for wellness, creative development, connecting to self. No, too little to no barrier to entry. Little, no preparation is needed. Like you can literally take your phone out of your pocket and just start right away. You don't have to go charge batteries I mean, you got to charge your phone you don't have to deal with an SD card or lighting. You just have to pick something up, put it in your hands and be like we're ready to go, I'm going to do this and it eliminates, like I said, those barriers that prevent us from starting our creative habits. So you know, this is why our brain also, if you get into photography, this is why your brain gets really good at like coming up with reasons with why you can't start. It's like I need a new camera, I need a new lens, I need new this, my lighting's not right. Like you're going to still deal with the resistance and the excuse making to stop you from doing it.

Speaker 1:

But when we stick to mobile photography on our phones, it's got everything that we need, literally everything that we need, and I firmly believe it's such a tool, like I said, for tapping into mindfulness, embodiment, connection with yourself, all sorts of stuff that are buzzwords right now. That also can be kind of boring, right, like we all know. Like we need to build better practices to take care of ourselves, and there's a lot of stuff out there that's like how to care for your mental health and well-being. You know, journaling habits, gratitude habits, going for walks, blah, blah, blah. They all work and they're all wonderful. But like, if you're not going to enjoy what you're doing, again another barrier to starting, because your brain is going to be like there's no reward here, I'm not doing it. And there's so much reward in photography. There is so much intrinsic reward and empowerment that comes from when you see what you are able to create. It's just for me it's like this self-fulfilling prophecy it helps you, it heals you, it connects with you, but then it hits that little reward button so that you're more likely to do it and I just fucking love it.

Speaker 1:

But anyways, I am like working on a few projects right now. Okay, so I have like my own personal photography. I'm doing a creative loop on Fridays called Fused Fridays, with a bunch of photographers where we're sort of dabbling in double exposure, multiple exposure and sharing that. I'm always working on my abstract, intentional camera movement photography. I have brand and business photography that I work with some clients who I'm helping create social content. I have like some lifestyle shoots coming up with people. I work in a bunch of different genres but like the through line is the impact of the storytelling, the visual story. So it all kind of comes together.

Speaker 1:

But I have a personal project that I've been kind of working on that I'm birthing. I'm thinking of like the Empress in the Tarot deck where I'm sort of like nurturing this idea that's in me and I haven't really decided of the format that it'll take. It's either going to go the way of a book in a published format to read and be self-guided to go through, or it's going to be like an interactive, collective creative experience. So, if you're listening to this and when you hear what we're talking about, if you have opinions, preferences where you're like I would love that as a book or I would love that as, like a collective group experience, let me know. You can always email me at contact at Jennifer Hully Sorry, I keep whacking my microphone, I'm smacking it so hopefully you can't hear that.

Speaker 1:

But this baby idea that I'm sort of gestating at the moment is this concept of how we can tap into our authentic, creative voice, not replicating or imitating somebody else, because that's what leads us down this rabbit hole where we become really dissatisfied with what we're doing but talking about this connection between using the camera to forge deep self-awareness, creativity and authentic expression. To you know, discover your voice, hone your craft and then share your world. Basically, it's not about, oh look, I made a photo that looks like this person, or I made a photo that looks like this person's, or this is technically perfect, I feel good. It's about making these pieces that make you want to scream like fuck. Yes, I can't believe. I just did that and I think about you know, when I was teaching at a high school and I was, you know, teaching kids like the technicalities of photography and stuff.

Speaker 1:

We were looking at a creative technique and then we had to do some stuff about aperture and like how to set your focus and whatnot. But it was those moments when they nailed whatever it was that they were trying to create and they were like, oh my fucking God, and they were just illuminated. It was almost like they were like plugged in. I can only describe it as like universal source energy, like that is what God, like creator energy is where it's like. Realizing that you have this infinite potential to create something from an idea into a physical expression of it is so magical, it's so, so magical. But those moments where you were like fist pumping the air and you're just like, holy shit, I feel so fucking powerful, I am so proud of what I've done and I'm like super jazzed up to try this again Doesn't come from a state of when we sit in fear or we sit in lack or low self worth and we think that to be good and take up space, we have to be the same as everybody else.

Speaker 1:

We have to replicate what others do. You know, thinking like magic words, magic gear, magic solution will like whatever somebody else did to achieve that will work for you. It's not having that. It's about learning how to tap into your inner voice, hone your skill, whatever it is that is related to then putting your story out there. And so this long, convoluted story that I'm trying to tell you is about this it's either going to be a book or it's going to be a course, and it's going to be about focusing inward and using photography as a tool to form deep connection with self mindfulness practices, embodiment of self and spirit, to discover what that inner voice is and then bring it out into creative play and to have it manifest into a physical thing, so that you are double dipping. Basically, you're getting the inner wellness of really understanding who you are, but then you're getting that soul fulfilling, energizing vibe, lifting of power when you see these things come into fruition. You can't do one without the other. You cannot make these pieces of art that are so fulfilling on a soul level without having that direct connection to yourself.

Speaker 1:

So I've got this idea, I've mapped it out, I've got all the modules or chapters or whatever of how you can use photography to do that. It is so fun and it is so creative and I'm so excited to roll it out. I'm just sitting on it I'm like I don't know whether is it a book or is it like a group experience, because there's magic in both and maybe it will be both. But as you listen to this, if this speaks to you and it speaks to you in a certain format, please let me know. I would love to hear your opinion as this starts to take shape and take form, and also remind you that creativity coaching and mentorship programs and spaces are open for 2024. You can reach out to me via my email contact at jenniferhollycom or you can tap the link in the show notes.

Speaker 1:

It is a process of like what I'm talking about right now, but very intense and very one to one and very specific to you and whatever it is that is in you that needs to be birthed out. It's a process of embodiment, intuitive mindset, practices that really help you tune into your inner creative spirit, that inner magician power, and bring it out into manifestation, because that's the big hurdle for a lot of us. We have that power with us, within us, but putting the things into action whether it's dealing with, I said, the limiting beliefs or dealing with the habits, or sometimes it's logistical things that need to be tweaked so that this can come out. There's so many moving parts that can be getting in the way and we want to eliminate that because we want I want everyone to have that feeling of just sheer joy, pride, self-esteem and desire to do something again. That is the purpose of life, I believe is to figure out a way to tap into that energy and create more of it for yourself. If you want to talk about that in terms of one-to-one coaching, mentorship, drop me a line for sure, and I'll let you know what that might look like for you. Here's what we're going to do.

Speaker 1:

We're going to drop into a conversation that I had with creative photographer Selena Bailey. There are previous parts of this conversation on my other podcast, but I think I'm going to bring them in here. I think there is space and relevance for them, and I always like to circle back to things. We don't just make something once and then leave it, and it's never applicable. This is a perfect example of it, because I recorded this, I want to say, like a year and a half ago with her.

Speaker 1:

This is part of the conversation that I never published. It's all about mindfulness, embodiment, how we narrow our focus to broaden our awareness of ourselves and the space that we're in through photography. It also talks about limitations and putting creative limitations in place so that we can nurture our creativity and get out of the habit of just replicating same shit different day, so that we're not feeling burnt out or disconnected from our work. We're going to talk a little bit about how she uses photography to drop into the moment, like how shooting in less desirable scenarios Hello Winter, my old friend, if you live in Canada, you know what I'm talking about. Right now, or anywhere that gets snow, canada's the worst. But let's be honest Talks about how it forces you to be aware and view a story that's unfolding and how you can have your mind on mind off. We talk about film photography, about how we need to. That's a constraint that can come in because you have 24 frames. That in itself, that limitation and that constraint can nurture mindfulness and intention, because your actions have to be intentional for your results that you're looking for. We also talk about emotional detachment in this conversation, about being present in the process, not totally attached to the outcome and sitting in a space of creative curiosity, versus like I'm going to stronghold and will this photograph into submission and be exactly what I want it to be, because that is no good for anybody. So it's a really interesting conversation. I will be back at the end to talk a little bit more about it and share some stuff, but we'll stop here and you can have a listen to this conversation I had with, like I said, creative photographer Selena Bailey.

Speaker 1:

You've said before that photography allows you to be more present in the moment. You were talking on a previous podcast I was listening to recently that having your camera with you and taking pictures of, like whatever's going on actually allows you to drop in and be more in the moment than it would if you didn't have your camera. When did you notice this? Like when did you first? I totally understand what you were saying when you said that. So I was like, yes, I have a little ADD and I'm like when I have my camera, it's like I can focus. But how did you notice that it allowed you to be more present? Was it with your kids first, when they were little, or yeah, so I, like I said, I picked up my camera.

Speaker 2:

I've always had a camera with me, but where I really got serious about photography was I started off by wanting to well the blog was one thing, but then really learn how to use my camera in manual mode and everything. I started documenting my children and took photos of them, just through a documentary approach where it just basically they do their thing and you photograph them.

Speaker 1:

And kids in the wild? Basically right, sorry, kids in the wild. Basically just like sit back and see what happens.

Speaker 2:

Exactly. And then what I noticed is that I actually, because I had my camera and I was shooting them, I was actually more present because I think that or else I would have I was more with them in a way, because I would bring myself into their space, yeah, and I started taking photos of them and because that moment called me, or the light called me, or something, and it just made me look and see also what was around me. Be more present in that sense because you're more attuned to what's going on around you when you have a camera, because you're looking for that composition, that moment, that spark or whatever. Whereas, if and I also find that whenever and this is a way that my children also know how to make me want to go on a walk or do something, they're like, oh, bring your camera. You know like, yeah, I become less lazy in a way too, because I will go for, even if we get really cold winters and I hate the cold, I'm like I absolutely hate it.

Speaker 2:

But when my kids are like, bring your camera, let's go losing, or, you know, skating, I'm like, yeah, for sure, or else I'd be like, no way, like what's in it for me? I don't skate. I don't ski, but the camera makes me because I play right. For me, the camera is my tool, it's my happy place, it's where I get creative. So it makes me want to do these things with my kids, but also just even in my house, instead of being, you know, at my computer or on my phone scrolling something. Just the fact that I'll be with them taking photos is very much like, made me realize, makes me just more present.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it forces you to drop into the moment, like you're saying right, literally sometimes drop into the moment where they are.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then you listen to them and to their conversations or whatever it is that they're doing. And since I've been shooting film, I shoot more film than digital. Now that's also really because then with my digital camera what happens is that I was trying to get that the shot right. I was trying to, and you see the back of your camera and you're, and I would get frustrated because I'm like, oh, like I, you know the composite, this is not perfect or this is, and I would take like three, four, 500 photos and it would just be overwhelming. But now with my film camera I have maybe I take one or two shots, but I still stay there, right. So I still I'm there, but now I'm even more present because I'm not behind my camera. So that's been really amazing. For me is shooting film.

Speaker 1:

It's been a whole other constraint. Like you're saying, right, Because I take my like 128 card with me, I can take hundreds and hundreds of photos, but you're not. You know you're not messing around when you have film, right, Like that's high constraint stakes. You've got to like, like you said, you take it or you don't take it. And you don't take, you're not going to go snap 24 frames off of the same thing because that's going to get expensive First of all. Right, yeah, so has that changed the way you look at things? Or what goes? What process happens in your brain before you click?

Speaker 2:

For sure. Push that button. Well, yeah, you slow down, you really look at your space, your light, your composition, and then, once you click that moment, you just have to be happy with what you've taken, I guess. And then there's no, like there's no. You let go of expectations. Also because with the digital, like I told you, I would take so many photos because I was trying to get the perfect moment. Especially when you have two kids, you want both expressions to be amazing or this or that.

Speaker 2:

With the film camera, you kind of just have to even feel more for when you're going to click. Sometimes you get the moment, sometimes you miss it. And there's some magic with film. For some reason it has this mystical way of working. Is that you also, because you don't see the results right away, you kind of forget what you shot or what the feelings were, and you're less disappointed in your photos because you also know what the situation was. I do the same thing now with digital. What I'll do is I'll shoot a bunch of photos. I try not to look at the. I take a lot less photos now, since I shoot, when I shoot digital, when I'm with my film and then I don't look at the photos for a while.

Speaker 2:

even at a photo for clients, or if I do a family session, I won't look at the photos for a while because I want to be detached from the feeling I had when I was shooting. I also don't deliver my photos super quickly to the clients, so they can forget the feeling.

Speaker 1:

That expectation, letting go of expectations, especially when you're having small kids and things are not going.

Speaker 2:

You feel like it never goes like you want it to go. You always have a night. Even as a photographer, you have an idea of what the shoot should or will be like. And then there's all these unexpected things. When baby cried the whole time, one kid was running around this that If you leave it, take the photos, go home, don't look at them. Wait a little while so that you can forget how it was. You can look at the photos and really have a more critical view on what you're feeling.

Speaker 1:

Be more objectively critical instead of emotionally critical. When you're in the moment and you can see my camera. I've got a Fuji where you can flip the screen around and cover it up, so it's gone which I like to do, because it can really hijack your brain. If you're taking photos and you look and you've screwed something up air quotes messed it up Then your brain can hyper fixate on I've just messed that up, I've messed that up. I've messed that up, which doesn't really guide you down the road you want to be. And when you're still trying to create and taking pictures.

Speaker 1:

I love that idea of what you're saying letting go of expectations but then putting some distance between you and the work. I do that too. I will upload if I've done a job for somebody. I will upload my photos onto my computer but not look at them. I won't even look at them for a few days because I'm like I don't want that comparison of expectation versus results. We can be very results oriented, especially, like you're saying, if you have a digital camera. It's like I want it to be perfect. I want both kids, this. I want the lighting perfect, but I don't want the highlights blown and I want the shadows there. You want everything, but it's not. We don't have that control. That's kind of what we were talking about at the beginning is there's always that element of unpredictability. I love that you shoot. I can see how film would really help you. Let go of that. Let go of some bad habits that we can pick up as creative people Not necessarily bad habits, but maybe challenging expectations or unrealistic expectations.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and then you get really nice and fun surprises when you don't look at like I call them happy accidents, because you haven't looked at the back of your camera or with film you sort of don't always know exactly what the photo will look like because you can't see the back of your camera. And then with film cameras you also get there's an added component and that's sometimes you get lightly Weird things happen or the film didn't advance like you wanted, so you have this funny double exposure and then for some reason they usually always work out really well. And so also looking at your photos and seeing those accidents and why you like them, and analyzing your work so that you can reproduce the mistakes, I think it's really fun too.

Speaker 1:

Yeah. Are you more with you in photography? Is it more process or product for you Like? Are you in love with the process? Yeah, definitely.

Speaker 2:

I'm definitely a process person. I know there's different types of personalities. There's the process and then there's the end result, right, and maybe, like I have so many photos on my hard drives and they just sit there. I just love, I think, the. For me, the creativity comes from the shooting, and I think I like film too, because there's less editing, but I do love editing too, but I don't get as creative in my editing as I do in my shooting, right?

Speaker 1:

You do a lot of stuff in camera though, right, like you use a lot of props and things that people probably say to you you could do that in Photoshop, right. But you're like I don't want to. Where's the play? I remember I took a photo with something once and someone's like how'd you do that? And I said, oh, I used a slinky for them. They're like couldn't you just do that in Photoshop? And I'm like I could, but that's not the point. Yeah, for me. Do you look at all your photos or do you take them into? Some of them you don't go through.

Speaker 2:

I'll go like, I'll go through them quickly. I'll go through whatever I shot really quickly to find one that I like because I'll post it on Instagram or to put into. I haven't even I really need to print my photos and put make albums I'm really bad with that. But yeah, for me it's more the process, the shooting, and then it doesn't matter for me so much. I mean, I do, I do like posting to Instagram, but sometimes I go back. So let's say, like this the last year I haven't shot so much, so I've been going back through my old photos and I'm like, oh my God, I didn't share this or that or this photo and I get like all these new. I'm excited, I have all these photos that I never even that I forget about or but so yeah, I'm really bad at.

Speaker 2:

And then for nothing that I do, I'm not so much goal oriented as I am as the process, even in fashion design, even in, I love the. I love the prepping, the getting inspired, I love the gathering information, I love the whole. You know there's even for photos, like when you ask me about my creative process. There's a lot of that I love. I spend hours on Pinterest looking at, I love looking through photo books, I love watching movies and getting inspired by that. So the gathering of information is just as important to me like the gathering informate inspiration. I love that part of it too, and then that gets. That's also the cold, creative and artistic direction where I put things together to get to like and then, once I have that, I'm like okay the picture is just the icing on the cake, right, like that's the fun.

Speaker 1:

You're like, okay, cool, it's the process of from beginning to middle to end. That is so important to you and that was, like I said, a snippet of a conversation that I had with Selena Bailey about a year and a half ago. It was a really long and juicy conversation about creativity and wellness and the ups and downs of the creative process, and that little segment there was really about mindfulness and limitations, constraints, expectations all those things that we've been talking about recently, and I wanted to share that with you. Selena makes incredibly creative work. Her the way she approaches photography is very different and, because of it being very different, her images are incredibly impactful. There is a story in them. They have that ability to speak to your heart and your soul, and I really encourage you to check out her work. She is at Selena Bailey on Instagram. She also, I believe, is still teaching with illuminate classes. She teaches like an introductory course and maybe something else on there now it's been a while, but you can go check it out.

Speaker 1:

I just felt that it was such an important reminder, right, that creative process is a process and it is a process of going inward. It's not about outward, outward production, production, productivity, output, output, output. Yes, the output is what keeps us going. It's the fireworks at the end of the day at Disney World. You know what I mean. This is a perfect analogy, where the fireworks at the end of Disney World are like the icing on the cake, where you're like this has been the most amazing, magical experience and the fireworks just wrap it up and you're like perfect. But if they didn't have the fireworks that day, you still would have had a pretty decent time, because you'd been on some amazing rides, had fun food, had lots of laughs, had like interactions with people that made you smile.

Speaker 1:

And it's the same with a creative habit. Whether it's photography or painting or whatever. It's the process that you go through of making and connecting with yourself and sharing a piece of yourself with the world through what you make that has such an impact on us. It is the process we do love, like I said, to fixate on the product. We're so obsessed with productivity and output right now, you know, and a lot of courses and things that are out there. It's like how to do this faster or how to take photos cheaper or how to do that, and it's like we're not factories, we're not assembly line machines, we're not AI. We are living, breathing, feeling, complex creatures that have our own history and our own story and our own way of seeing the world.

Speaker 1:

And photography or a creative habit, you know, whatever your choice of self-expression is, is so integral to our being and our wellness, and my fear is is that, as we go further and further into the world of AI and optimization and machines, is that we'll be taken away from that? You know, I feel like we, as people, are supposed to engage with the world through our senses. We're supposed to feel and touch and make and get your hands dirty and do things and interact with stuff, and we're shifting into a space where it's like we let all the doing be done for us so that we can just sit and receive, I guess, and watch. Almost Consume, I think, is the word I'm looking for, and if we really want to live a balanced, happy, healthy, harmonious life, it's shifting out of that consumption into that creation, because that is why I believe we are actually here on earth. We're going deep now, but I think our and I posted about this on Instagram I really think the purpose of life is to learn what brings you joy, learn what you know fills your bucket, what gives you that intrinsic like oh my God, this is amazing through the senses what feels good, tastes good, looks good, like all of that.

Speaker 1:

To learn what that is but then become skillful and master the art of actively creating scenarios in our life that give us more of that. And, like I said, photography can be an avenue to do that. It can be an avenue to capture and remember those moments that has so many, so many things. So, if you are a photographer, I would love to hear from you. Let me know why you, why you shoot, what you love to shoot. If you've never taken a photo in your life, come play along with me on Instagram or TikTok. Come hang out, give it a whirl. It's a great way to shake up things If you work in another medium.

Speaker 1:

We talked last week, I think, or two episodes ago, about changing things up and playing in different areas and different things that you're not comfortable with as a way to boost creativity. So there is so much value in it, and I could talk for hours and hours, and that's why I have a podcast and why we'll be back next week to talk more about this. You know my, the things that are near and dear to my heart and hopefully your heart, which is, you know, relentless self-discovery, self-expression, honing a craft of creation, whatever that looks like to you, and boldly and bravely bringing that stuff out into the world to share it with others. Because when we share our art, we are sharing ourselves. We are saying this is what it looks and feels like to be me and this is what feels important and meaningful and joyful or hard and heavy. You know, to me it's sharing ourselves with the world and sharing ourselves with ourselves. There's just so much from it that we can all benefit from. So, yeah, watch this space for this focus, a focus inward and whether it takes the format of a book or a course, it is so up in the air. Right now I'm totally not sure it could go 50, 50 either way.

Speaker 1:

And if you're intrigued and interested about creativity, coaching and mentorship and you want to talk about all these practices and what, how we could bring this in to play for you, please reach out, shoot me an email. Contact Jennifer Holly. All the deeds are in the show notes. You know that. And one last thing please, please, please, give this show a rating and review if you're liking it. It's really helpful. Growing a new podcast not easy gonna be totally transparent with you, not easy starting over from zero. It's like building a brand new social media account. So if you liked this, if it resonated with you, you're in the app already that you're listening to. Just go there, tap it, hit the five stars. You want to throw some extra love? Write a sentence or two. I would be forever, forever grateful until next week. Go out there, kick creative ass and I'll talk to you soon.