Today we ask the most important question: why is Malcolm so awesome? Tana and Malcolm discuss letting kids ask questions, how Malcolm earned his way to first-person shooter games, and why "because I told you so" and other authoritarian parenting habits were never the way in the Schiewer household.
Today we ask the most important question: why is Malcolm so awesome? Tana and Malcolm discuss letting kids ask questions, how Malcolm earned his way to first-person shooter games, and why "because I told you so" and other authoritarian parenting habits were never the way in the Schiewer household.
Sup. Hi.
Tana:You know, I have, I have, I have a question for you. Okay. Why are you so awesome?
Malcolm:My parents. That
Tana:sounded rehearsed. So Malcolm, tell me, how awesome are they?
Malcolm:Dad told me to say it.
Tana:No, but seriously, uh, no, I get a lot of compliments on you. Um. I don't know. I'm
Malcolm:just this way.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. I get it from. Early ages, you know, uh, they would just be like, Oh, he's, he's such a nice kid, you know? And, um, in the teenage, in the teenage years, especially, because that's a, that's a time when parents and children tend to butt heads the most in their teen years. And I feel like we did that age 11. It was like your, your time where you were the most angry with us. And then it was like, after that, I mean, we had occasional arguments and stuff, but we have, I think we've had a pretty good relationship, um, overall, but, but yeah, I get a lot of compliments on, um, what a good person you are.
Malcolm:Yeah. I think, I think 11 was around the time that I was starting to get into. More violent stuff like yes, that's when I really started getting into video games. You should clarify
Tana:it. Yeah. Okay. Yeah
Malcolm:More violent, so I was on the sidewalk burning ants Throwing rocks through people's windows But you guys just wouldn't let
Tana:me No, you did you did you started to get more into like the first person shooter Video games and um... I remember
Malcolm:having to write a paper to you guys about... Oh my gosh, I forgot about that! If I could uh, play Halo or not. I
Tana:totally forgot about that because yeah, we were really nervous about that. You know, that was, it's a, it's a difficult transition time for a parent, right? Like giving you a little bit more independence over what you think you can consume and then also just you know, it's a difficult transition time for a parent, right? Like giving you a little bit more independence over what you think you can consume and then also just Being exposed to more things that, you know, that are negative, right? Yeah. And, um, we were very afraid because your, so your friends had Halo, right? And you wanted to play. Um, cause I know you didn't have it at the time. I only had a computer. Yeah. You didn't have like a system of any kind or anything, right? Yeah. Because you did have a PlayStation when you were younger, but that got stolen.
Malcolm:Um, yeah. And then, uh, I think. Dad downloaded all the games I had on the PlayStation 2 Steam on my computer. Oh, that's right. Because I just, I loved the Lego Star Wars games. Oh,
Tana:yeah, you did that, but you did a lot of Minecraft.
Malcolm:Even then, in general, I didn't, no, even in Blacksburg, I didn't really play much Minecraft.
Tana:I felt like you did a lot in Blacksburg, but it was when you were starting to get into it, I think. I
Malcolm:think it was, it must have been the year before we moved back here that I was getting into it. Because at first I didn't like Minecraft. Oh, really? Yeah, because Dad tried showing it to me. And like everything that Dad tried to show me when I was little, I decided I didn't like it because Dad was trying to show me. Of course. So... That's how it works. Yes.
Tana:Um... Yeah. Yeah. But we were really nervous about that. And so, yeah, it was your, actually your dad's idea, which is funny since I was the English teacher. And he was like, you need to write us an essay about why you should be able. Do you even remember what was
Malcolm:in it? I, yes, actually. Really? Um,
Tana:I don't. Cause I know it wasn't like, because I want to. I remember actually looking
Malcolm:stuff
Tana:up too. Really? Yes. Probably the best research you ever did for a paper.
Malcolm:That's definitely not true. Um, but I, it was just like, Uh, basically talking about how it's not very, like, gory at all, which, I mean, now you've played Halo, so you know,
Tana:it's, it's, it's birthday balloons and streamers when you shoot a
Malcolm:grunt. Yeah. Um, and then there's, it's also just like, you see little flashes of blue or red. Yeah.
Tana:It's not like, yeah, it's not like a horror movie where, you know, it's like, entrails,
Malcolm:blood, guts. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I remember that being a big point because I knew that you guys didn't like violence at all. Gore, yeah. Um, and I think it was also just like, I was talking about how it's high fantasy, like it's like people in space fighting aliens. Like it wasn't. Oh yeah, it wasn't like people. It wasn't like boots on the ground. Yeah. Shooting other people. Yeah.
Tana:Wasn't, I feel like, I don't know if this was in your paper, but I remember you making this point a lot as a teenager. Um, which was, uh, that studies have shown that it's the video games don't make a person violent. Yes. Yeah. I remember, I don't remember if it was in that paper. I still make that point now
Malcolm:because people still think that's the case.
Tana:Yeah, because I think it's all largely because of the, the Columbine shooting, because those, that was one of like the very first, um, it was the first major. Uh, school shooting perpetrated by the student, uh, and they were really into those games, and so, you know.
Malcolm:I, I even, there was another shooting at one point where it was proven that the person had somewhat, on occasion, played Call of Duty.
Tana:That, it's, correlation is not causation. And I was like, yeah.
Malcolm:They have less hours in Call of Duty than I do in Call of Duty in like a week. Right, yeah. What? I don't, I
Tana:don't understand. Yeah, I mean video games are not going to magically make your child violent. No, it's not. You know, I could see how it would let, actually interestingly, I feel like I think some people think, well, if they already have violent tendencies and then they're doing this, it's going to make them want to go out and do it in real life, and I could see maybe an argument for that, but there's also the possibility that having an outlet like that might prevent someone from doing, you
Malcolm:know. Actually, um, video games are used for therapy now, both physical and mental. Um, I mean not stuff like Call of Duty, but they do have it as an outlet or a way of even keeping your mental cognition healthy because video games can engage part of your brain that keeps you, your brain young and healthy. So it's used to battle dementia. Oh,
Tana:wow. Um, uh, yeah, so
Malcolm:video games have also been used to cure small time diseases.
Tana:Like you have a disease, you play a video game and you're cured? Yup, magically.
Malcolm:No, there is this game where, um, people could like actually, uh, it, first of all, there was like the main part of the game where you could like solve things that have already been solved with combining. Um, I don't know if it was molecules or genomes or something together. Oh. And then there was one, there was literally just a, um, like game mode of the game, where it's just all the stuff that scientists are currently working on, or things that haven't been proven yet. And because you have... Like, tens of thousands of people playing this game, you had tens of thousands of people trying to solve all of these things, and they solved a bunch of
Tana:them. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah. Well, there's a
Malcolm:whole... And they're just video game players. Like, they were scientists, they were, like, they're just... You know, if you tap that right
Tana:part of someone's mind... Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's, and there's a theory, uh, a pedagogical theory, uh... About using basically games, uh, video games, other games, uh, as a way to help people learn. Yeah. Cause it keeps them engaged, they're, they're interested and yeah. So, so anyway, so just thinking about that period of time, it was, it was a rougher period of time for us, but it still is not nearly what I've seen some other people go through and, and we also. Have had a good relationship intact and a couple people that they're like, you know I'd love to hear you guys talk about is you know your relationship and how you've maintained that and how So, you know, um, so yeah, so anyway, I just thought maybe we could explore that a little. And I just want to put a little disclaimer on here that like I have, Don and I have had some strong thoughts on. How we wanted to raise Malcolm and, um, we're very proud of how he's turned out. But I don't think I have all the answers and I have also made a lot of mistakes. So, uh, by no means do I think I'm a perfect parent.
Malcolm:And Malcolm will
Tana:tell you all of them right now. But by no means do I think I'm a perfect parent. But if, if anything can help anyone think through. Stuff, then. Sure. Let's share
Malcolm:it. I mean, the, there's, there's always the prejudice, not, not prejudice. That's definitely not bias not the right word. Bias. Bias, yeah. No, definitely. Prejudice, no. Uh, there's nothing bias that plays into it. Like, you would not let me watch any horror things. No. Whatsoever. No. Um, no. Which, I mean, you saved me from a very boring genre, so thank you, but... Oh,
Tana:I'm fighting words with Shelby. Well, honestly, I mean, there is a thing where I, I, I don't like horror, um, but... It was also, I wanted, your mind was still growing and I wanted to like, protect you from nightmares and stuff, you know? Yeah.
Malcolm:So... Haha, I had nightmares anyway. Haha,
Tana:joke's on you mom.
Malcolm:Welcome to having depression when you're too young for a kid that should have depression.
Tana:Well, um... And there probably was a bit of bias in there because for me, because I, that kind of stuff sits with me. Right. So, I mean, you know, my Jurassic Park story, like, you know, I saw Jurassic Park when it first came out in the theaters and, um, when that, it, yeah, it was very startling to me. And, um, after I saw it, I had nightmares about dinosaurs. Uh, I still went on to watch the other two of that original trilogy, but like I had, I had nightmares about dinosaurs for like a really long time. And also like this idea that these like scientists did all this stuff and I'm like, they could bring them back. They could bring them back. And I was just like, yeah. So throughout the years I would have different, different nightmares about dinosaurs. But more, um, less, less ridiculously speaking, uh, I would get. You know, horror things, especially if they were more in like the spiritual realm, would just like sit with me for days and freak me out and like, and I didn't want that to happen to you.
Malcolm:Yeah, no, I'm totally, it's so separated in my mind. I think it's because I just, I like. I definitely keep different worlds in my brain for everything. Like, I'm like, ooh, like, I never accidentally mix, um, canon. Like, I'm never like, oh, this was actually in Star Wars, not in Halo. Like, I, I am very good at separating stuff and keeping things in conjunction. Like, I, and I have a, In my mind, I have our world as its own thing and what continuity our world follows, which there are somehow plot holes in our world. Don't know how that works, but, um, uh,
Tana:plot holes in reality. Yes.
Malcolm:I mean, it's true. Yeah. But, um, I think another reason that, like, Wow, we've stayed so connected and things don't really sit with me or bother me is like, you guys always have just answered my questions. Like you guys have never been because I said so people.
Tana:Oh my gosh, but we, but I have to tell the story. Yeah, go ahead. Go for it. Because, yeah, so that was, that was a parenting philosophy a lot A lot of people are like, what are you doing? Uh, cause I
Malcolm:don't understand that. I'm like, why, why are people
Tana:surprised because people buy into the basic, the basic ideas, authoritarian parenting, like that's just kind of like the fallback.
Malcolm:Authoritarian stuff is the reason why our world is so fucked up. Well,
Tana:amen. So, um, yeah, so we didn't want to be those authoritarian parents and I would say I wasn't there right away. Like in my mind I was just like, well, you're the. You're the kid. I'm the parent. You do what I say. And I also had some anger issues earlier on, so I wasn't perfectly in this right away. But by the time you were three or four, maybe, um, yeah. And so we would, we would let you ask all the questions. We would answer your questions. We never did the, Because I said so. We never were like, Malcolm, you have to do it. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, until we finally, the whys, the why questions got to be way too much one day. And finally, I don't remember which one of us, what it was. We're just like, you know what, Malcolm, because I said so. And you paused and you thought, and you go, is that a good answer for you? Because it's not a good answer for me.
Malcolm:Yep. It's true. It wasn't
Tana:a good answer. I mean, fair. But I just, I loved that reaction because it was, it was just so, so funny and, and fair. Like, that's not a good reason. You know.
Malcolm:I think it was that on top of the, uh, not letting me win thing. Oh, I
Tana:think we have to explain that a little bit. Oh, well,
Malcolm:yeah, you guys have never, have never let me win. You would, you would dance around on my loss. When I was five. So I know. Actually, I think that was mostly dad. When you,
Tana:I don't know, when
Malcolm:we played air hockey. Oh, that's true. You turned into She Hulk.
Tana:But no, when we, well, when you were like a baby, you know, we'd be just like pretend, you know, like if you were trying to throw something in a basket, then we might help it over and be like, Yeah, you know, like, you know, do that kind of stuff. But yeah, when we started playing games. We would give you tips and stuff to help out. Like, oh, Malcolm, maybe you want to do this or whatever, but we would never just be like, oh, you get to win. Here you go. You know, we're like, I win,
Malcolm:sucka. But yeah, I think because of the never saying, because I told you so, and always letting me win, you guys
Tana:always... Always letting you win, not letting you
Malcolm:win. Always not letting me win. So, not letting me win. Um, you guys invited me. No, maybe not invited challenge is the right word, but like you guys didn't shy away from it So I was never a kid to like hide my Disagreements.
Tana:Oh, yeah, I'm aware So are many of your teachers Yeah,
Malcolm:so I feel like I Learned a lot more than some kids might have about things because I think some kids might just like sit in their own logic, and not get proven otherwise. Whereas I would get, um, proven otherwise by you or dad. You'd be like, oh well this is actually how it is. I'm like, oh.
Tana:Yeah, we also didn't shy away from giving you like correcting you if you were like,
Malcolm:you know And then you guys also didn't shy away from if I was right either right, which is also good because if it was hard
Tana:Cuz you mean like, you know when you're like seven year old is like Well, wouldn't this, wouldn't it be this way? And you're like, yes, I just got outlogged by a seven year old.
Malcolm:But like, I feel like, I wonder how many like kids have said something like that to their parents and their parents just. Tell them that they're wrong, even though they're correct, just to preserve their own dignity against their own sepulchre.
Tana:Well, to preserve their authority. And this is, I actually think this is a really, really important, important thing. Because, um, when you're told with authority that, you know, this equals that. Like, you know, uh, or this is how you do this, or whatever. But you're not given a reason why. At some point, you're naturally going to like seep out of that authoritarian thing and go, well, what would happen if I did do Y? You know, like, And then you
Malcolm:become combative, rebellious.
Tana:Right, uh, because then you're like, well, you lied to me. Yeah. You know what I mean? So then, um, a child, a teenager, or whatever, becomes really... combative and disrespectful and, um, uh, you know, like, well, you always tell me not to do these things. I mean, I think we even, I think we even told you, Oh gosh, I remember this. Sorry.
Malcolm:This is, we just watched Hunger Games last night and this is sounding like the plot to Hunger Games, the authoritarian versus
Tana:the people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I just don't, I don't agree at all with this. Like just. This is I decree it and that's it. Like there should be conversation. There should be thought processes and, um, allowing your child to think is a good thing. Um, what? I don't know. But I remember we had, um, some friends. Uh, our friends, when you were growing up, whose, um, son was addicted to drugs and did, yeah, and did some, some bad things, you know, like stole from people and stuff like that to feed their habit. And I remember you asking me about like, Why do they do drugs if it does these bad things, right? Yeah, and I think some parents would have been like well because they're a bad person, you know Or because they have an addiction and just kind of oversimplify it But we told you... At least
Malcolm:the addiction is more on the correct side.
Tana:That is, yes But we told you because it doesn't feel bad at first And we were like, when people first start to take drugs, like, it feels good. It gives them what's called a high. And we explained it all to you. And then we were, then we explained to you how addiction works. And then we're like, and then it, it gets bad. Like then it. It becomes bad and it's, you can't get away from it and it causes all of these negative things. And so I, I personally, I don't, I don't know if you ever thought this consciously, if you're going to disagree with what I'm about to say, but I personally think that's why you never really did anything like that because I didn't lie to you and be like, Oh, drugs are bad. Yes. And then your friends go, Oh no, drugs are good. And you go, okay. Yeah.
Malcolm:Because I already know that there's. That's a good part to them. That's what I don't understand about cigarettes. There's just nothing good about cigarettes. I, I, that's just, they,
Tana:they, Well, I think the people who smoke them feel something, obviously. But. Really? I
Malcolm:didn't think cigarettes gave you any sort of high. I thought it was just, it tasted bad, it smelled bad, and it was bad for your lungs. I,
Tana:I don't think it's a high. I've heard people say it relaxes
Malcolm:them. Oh, okay. Oh, so it's like, smoke and a beehive. A beehive? Yeah, if you, people will light fires underneath the beehives because then the smoke makes all the bees fall asleep and then they can get all the honey out. I was
Tana:trying to figure out how someone would smoke a beehive. And
Malcolm:then
Tana:I was like, is this a different term for marijuana
Malcolm:that I haven't heard? I, I was relating cigarette smoke. And the calming effects of fire smoke. Why would
Tana:someone do that? Okay, sorry.
Malcolm:That was funny though. Um, okay, I guess that makes more sense. I'm so used to things being like, oh, it makes you feel really good or something. Um, but yeah, I mean, I never done drugs. I've, um... I mean, I've, I've drank alcohol before, but I don't drink alcohol. And I don't smoke anything. I don't
Tana:inject anything. No. Um, yeah, um, I have to, I have to, I have to tell you this. I just, you said about the, the cigarette and this made me think, so I was curious when I was younger about cigarettes and, um, my neighbor's mother, uh, smoked. So I knew how to like sneak into their house when it was locked. So there was one day I snuck in and I stole a cigarette and uh, I may have like borrowed her lighter too or something. I don't know. And I got on my bike and I rode like as far away from the house as I could. And then I, I smoked the cigarette cause I was curious like what it was all about. And it was really interesting cause I remember thinking like, I hate the smell of it. I really, really hate the smell of it. And I really hate the stale smell of it on people. Like when they smoke in their house and then they go out and they're just, everything smells like smoke. Um, but in the moment, I remember thinking that there was something I liked about it, but I didn't understand what. And, and I was just curious and that was it. I have never smoked a cigarette again. But what's really weird is every once in a while, like, I will just get like a whiff of the smoke and I'll be like, oh man, I want to smoke a cigarette. It's so strange, but I've only ever smoked that one. And yeah, my, my, my stolen, my illicit cigarette, but
Malcolm:yeah. Um, mom, I'll never find out. I mean, besides you just telling her.
Tana:Oh no, it's not at the moment. No, I don't know if I ever told her, but if she's listening to this now,
Malcolm:she does. Be careful where you go to Pennsylvania. It might get sent to your room. Yeah. Yeah.
Tana:But anyway, but yeah, I think, I think, uh, I won't, I'm not going to lie. There were times it was really difficult, um, being honest and open with you and including you in decisions, which we did a lot. Oh yeah, that's
Malcolm:true. That, I think that was honestly also one of the biggest ones, like, um, because the, I think the thing I remember you, I definitely told you guys when I was little was. I hated being treated. Like I was a little kid. Yeah. And I think that was probably because you guys always included me in everything that you guys did. Hmm. And so I somewhat knew the adult decisions and stuff and I understood what you guys talked about too at your table, but whatever, I can even see you guys kind of like Grimace at it, or be like, uh, when, like, whatever person's house you're going to, that they were like, Oh, Malcolm, you can go sit at the kid's table, and I'm like, and do what? Right. I'm like, be a kid. Man, sitting at the kid's table was the most boring thing. Oh,
Tana:trust me. I felt the same way when I was your age. I was just like, I love to talk to the adults. I really like to be in on the conversations.
Malcolm:I remember taking some adults off guard talking to them as
Tana:well. Well, yeah. That happened all the time. People are like, man, your son is, you know,
Malcolm:he's remarkable. I just talked normally. Like, I didn't think it was anything... Like, it was just... Like, I think you guys had just always told me about stuff and had always included me in everything, so I just, I knew stuff. Like, stuff, like, the adult world wasn't hidden from me because I, I wasn't an adult.
Tana:Right. Right. Yeah. And, yeah. And we separate. I, I think... There's a couple things. One, we separate generations a lot now. Like, there used to be much more multi generational interaction, I think, in the past. Um, but, uh, two, you also grew up around a lot of adults. Like, because we had people over at the house all the time. Um, you know, we had, um, our community of people, we had, uh, we started our Sunday lunches while I was pregnant with you. So that was just a part of your childhood was, you know, and plus, you know, when your dad was... There wasn't
Malcolm:really any kids my age besides my neighbor and other kids were like significantly older than me. So even they were more mature.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You, um, you fell in a weird time because it was like... There was a time when, um, all the people we knew were having babies, and then there was a period of time, and then there was you, and then there was a period of time, and then there was all our friends were having babies, so you're like just kind of like on this island by yourself. I was the only
Malcolm:kid and the, um, and in that
Tana:gap. Yes, you were, yeah, pretty much. And, and you know, when your dad was the college pastor, um, you had college students around all the time. You know, um. Yeah,
Malcolm:and then even in Blacksburg, I played Ultimate Frisbee with the College
Tana:Kid Club. That's right, you did. Um. The College Kid
Malcolm:Club. The College Club. The College Kid Club. It's still in my mind since I was little. It's like, oh, this is like the College Kid group. Right, yeah.
Tana:Yeah. But I think, and I think that was really important to your, your formation, you know, like I've, I've heard that about language development, like the more people you can expose your child to, like more regular conversations, they just pick up more words, you know, um, that kind of stuff. And, um, yeah, but we have this thing where we really want to separate the adults from the children. And we also, um, I think still relatively prevalent in our society is authoritarian parenting. Now I think that's going away, uh, every generation I think comes up with different methods of parenting, um, that are more like, like I think there's one called gentle parenting right now. Um, uh,
Malcolm:I have one, what?
Tana:Parenting. Yeah. But see, though, a lot of people parenting would be the authoritarian parenting. Um, and I think, Oh, here,
Malcolm:good parenting.
Tana:But, but then what's that? You know what I mean? Like some people were like, Oh, you're too, like, you should just. They're very punishing, you know. I mean, kind of, yeah, there are people who are like that. And, um, I remember, uh, even, you know, do you know who Matt Walsh is? Not the good Matt Walsh, but the bad Matt Walsh. Okay. Um, he did this review of a book that was, it was a children's book and it was about consent and Um, not for sex. Okay. That was... But there's a philosophy, there's a philosophy that one of the reasons why people are so poor at consent as adults is because they're never taught that their opinion matters as children. Like, they're just, you know what I mean? And so a lot of families will be like, go hug your aunt, go hug your grandma, go hug, you know, even if the child doesn't want to be touched. You know, it's like a requirement. And, um, so this book was sort of the idea of like, kids have bodily autonomy. They're not like your play thing, they're not your pet,
Malcolm:they're not your, you know, especially if you don't understand or you haven't found out yet that your kid has something like autism. And autism is one of those tactile, really big ones for physical touch. Like, right, like, uh, like you could not understand why every family gathering your kid is freaking out and it's just because. Like,
Tana:they're overstimulated, they don't want to be touched,
Malcolm:their grandmother is always like poking them or something
Tana:like that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what kind of this book was getting at. It was like, you know, um, basically like you don't have to sit on your uncle's knee. You don't have to, um, hug your grandma because then you, you, you're basically teaching kids that it's okay for adults to touch them whenever they want.
Malcolm:Which then gets to a whole
Tana:nother Exactly, and so you would think someone who claims to be so against, like, pedophilia, and, you know, so for the safety of kids and everything, would be like, this is a good book. Instead, he totally trashed the book, and then he was like, consent, my kids do whatever I tell them to do, you know, and I was just like, dang, man. I was like,
Malcolm:your kids will be less rebellious? if you let them be their own person? I don't understand what's so hard to understand.
Tana:I'm sure that's not always 100 percent true. I'm sure there's some parent out there going, no, there won't. But I mean, it worked for us. Maybe we just got lucky.
Malcolm:Well, no, I, it seems pretty consistent with friends that I've known. Anytime that I know someone who's like I'm gonna sneak out or something like that I've met their parents and I'm like I could understand why you'd want to sneak out I was like your parents are kind of assholes like they just They hover so the amount oh my gosh going to MV the amount of parents that just hover Oh
Tana:helicopter parents. Oh my gosh.
Malcolm:Yeah
Tana:I cannot. Yeah.
Malcolm:I was actually really... I thought you guys were alligators. No, I'm kidding.
Tana:I could have easily been. Uh, honestly, your, your dad, a lot of the parenting philosophy came from your dad. And I, I had to kind of learn it over time. Um, I think he had more to... easily unlearn because he was like, well, I don't want to be my parents, you know? Um, whereas I have a great relationship with my parents. I love my parents. And, um, so I didn't really, I don't know. I just didn't really think about like what, how I needed to parent. And I just sort of just did stuff. And then, you know, Don would be like, well, what if we did this instead? Like, oh, okay. You know, that makes sense. Yeah. Um. Darn it, and I don't remember where I was going. Where was I going? What were you just talking about? Oh, helicopter parents. Um, so when we lived... You're welcome. I'm, I'm very, I'm actually really grateful for our time in Blacksburg because I think that helped me let go. Because it felt like a safe space to let you have freedom. Because we lived in that giant apartment complex. Um, and we were set aside from like main roads and stuff like that. And the, it was full of, um, it was, it was, I mean, there was the student section, but there was also the, um, the section we lived in, which was like graduate school students and like visiting professors and families and like stuff like that. And so there were a whole bunch of kids along there. Yep. And so I knew, You know, you went riding bike with bikes with your friends. You were going to be surrounded, like you're going to be in an area we were familiar with. You went up to the pool. We knew where that was. Like it was, it was so much easier for you to just be like, I'm going to get on my bike and go and us be like, okay. You know? Yeah. A
Malcolm:college residential area was actually surprisingly a really good area. I feel like to raise a kid. Cause like then moving back here, I'm like, there's not a lot of kids around me. My age and there's like the community pools are kind of gross and well
Tana:it's The, the area, it's cause the area, like the center of the apartment complex was like student, like students and then like the outskirts, so we mostly were in the outskirts. We didn't hardly really go through the student section. Yeah, yeah, we,
Malcolm:we were in like downtown college area. We were, cause it was like a college town. Right, yeah. But, like, yeah, I think college towns are great because there's a lot of kids your age and there's always, like, uh, something that's owned by something that's known by the college so it's usually kept up nice and everything
Tana:like that. Well, the sad thing is... The transient nature of colleges and universities meant like your friends were constantly moving away. Yeah, that's true. And then we moved away, you know.
Malcolm:I mean, but that can also be a lesson in and of itself. Um, just, you know, because I mean if you don't deal with some sort of loss at all for a big portion of your life, then when it finally hits, it's gonna suck. That's a good point. Um, like I never really experienced... Uh, something that was really, like, earth shattering until June last year, not the month, until our dog passed away last, last year. Oh. And so that was, like, devastating for me, like, I took a big time off of my job and I, like, barely function. Yeah, that was rough. Yeah. Cause, I mean, I just, and for, like, some, like, one of my... best friends, stuff like that doesn't bother them at all because they've had multiple deaths in their families. They've, um, their parents are both EMTs. So the amount of stories that they've heard and everything like, like, well, they've had a lot
Tana:of animals, right? So it's kind of gone. Yeah. Been through that. And,
Malcolm:um, So yeah, there's just, um, so I, I think something like that made it a little, because like if, if I had never experienced some of my close friends moving away from me, I couldn't imagine how much worse June passing would have been.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. I think we try to protect kids too much. It's, it's, it's kind of funny and weird for me to say that right after I said like we, we should have a book on. Consent. Um, I think we need to protect kids in the right way. Yeah. Um, I mean, I'm not saying like give your kid a hunting knife and drop them off in the middle of the forest and tell them to make their way home. Some do that. Um, yeah. Uh, but yeah, I think, yeah, I don't know. It's, parenting's difficult. I
Malcolm:think some of it's also just, you can't just stick with one thing. Some of it's like you have to cater to your kid.
Tana:100%. I have, I have known people who have, uh, two kids, three kids, and they just, they parent the way they parent. That's it. And one will be like, Like the nicest, most obedient child. Raymond Holt. Huh? Raymond Holt. There'll be Raymond Holt, yes. Um, and then the other will just be like the rebellious. Jake Peralta. Yeah. Although Jake, Jake was like a good, like,
Malcolm:he was a scamp. But he was off the walls.
Tana:Right, yeah. But like, yeah, it's, so you, I think you do kind of have to. Especially since. Adjust.
Malcolm:I mean, any parent that have, uh, Like, um, I don't really know how to put it, an average kid, like a kid that doesn't really have any sort of, uh, like, mental problems or deformities or anything like that, and then has another kid that might have, like, autism or down syndrome. They learn so quickly that kids can be so different from each other. Yeah, that's, I mean, cause that's an obvious difference. Yes, it's very extreme and like you have to cater to that kid then. At least if it's a higher form of autism. Like, there are obviously kids that have lower forms of autism that you're just like, Oh, they're just very obsessive over this one thing. Right, yeah. Um, that's the first clue there that you got for them having autism. Um, But, uh, even simple stuff, like, one of your kids really likes to go out to the playground nearby and play with a bunch of kids versus your other kid likes to stay inside and draw the whole day. Like, you gotta... There's got to be different parenting for even something as simple as that difference.
Tana:Yeah. And that's, that's something that annoys me when I see parents doing this to their children is when they, like, we have, we have a bias towards extraversion in this country. And so like, yes, it's just like, there are so many times
Malcolm:people and mourning people and mourning
Tana:people that too. Yes, I agree. Um, yeah, it's like, there's lots of situations where people just expect other people to be an extrovert. And if they're not acting like an extrovert, it's like, oh, there's something wrong with you. You have to learn to be an extrovert, but we never go up to extroverts and be like, you need to. Like, calm down, we need you to learn how
Malcolm:to be an introvert. There are people now that are doing that. Yeah, and be like, You need to calm down.
Tana:Yeah, and it's, it's a little frustrating to me when people do that because there are different personalities and not everyone can learn to be an extrovert, you know? The world is about
Malcolm:networking. Yeah, um. I, I don't know how I manage and I don't know if I could somehow... Give my knowledge to other people, but I managed to just say F it at one point and just started forcing myself to be more extroverted and confident and it just ended up taking at some point and I'm, I'm still not like super extroverted, but I'm enough where I can network.
Tana:So you're just proving what I just said, basically. What?
Malcolm:No, no, I'm saying, no, you said that people can't, or you said that some people can't. Right. I'm saying that, like, it doesn't hurt to try. Oh, yeah. Like, for the longest time, I never thought I was going to be able to, but, um, no, I, I think it really depends on the person. Yeah. Because some of it could have also just been something as simple as, like, Growing up, like people grow out of things. Extroversion and introversion can be one of those things. Oh, you were very extroverted as a
Tana:child. Yeah. And then you just walk up to people. Yeah.
Malcolm:Yeah. And then for a while I was introverted and now I'm kind of somewhere in the middle. Yeah. So.
Tana:Yeah. I mean, I think there are certainly people who could try, but I think there are also just. We have different ways of being in this world and we need to accept that. Like I was recently talking with an artist who was said they were so grateful because their mother encouraged their art and that was really in their family was like surprising because like All of their siblings are like doctors and stuff, you know, and, but it was clear that art was like just coming out of this person and it was a necessary part of their like healing process and stuff. And the mother encouraged that. And I know there are families who'd be like, you're not going to be an artist. No,
Malcolm:I, yeah. Cause I mean me going to a very diverse and rich school, I definitely met a lot of like Middle Eastern Uh, Asian families that were very, like, you are going to have a PhD in something and make six figures. Like, there was no...
Tana:I dealt with a lot of students, um, I did some academic coaching when I was at Virginia Tech. And there was all these students who came from, like, the affluent suburbs of... Washington, D. C. They call it NOVA, Northern Virginia. And so, like, all these kids from NOVA were the ones that had, like, the high powered parents and, um, and, uh, they were expected to do XYZ. And the reason I was coaching them was because they were on academic probation. Um, and, uh, the number of them that I would talk to... Who would say, like, I don't want to be here. I'm here because my parents forced me. They told me I'm going to be an engineer because my dad's an engineer and I can get a job in their firm and blah, blah, blah. You know, and, and I'm like, well, what do you want to do? Well, that's the great thing
Malcolm:about nepotism is that you don't need a degree. You can just have your dad hire you into the job.
Tana:There you go. Just hire anyway. Yeah. But it was sad to me because in that situation, my job was to get them... Get their
Malcolm:grades
Tana:back up and give them hints on and tips on how to like overcome any studying problems, but I also was just like, tried to give them like this in an ear, you know, because I thought this is terrible. This person really wants to be an artist and their parents are forcing them to be an engineer, you know? Yeah.
Malcolm:I always have trouble with that too, because. I do support the idea of a backup plan. Yes. But I think it's really hard to have a backup plan when it's like that. Like there's a difference Like something you don't want at all. Yeah. And it's, it's also difficult if there are two completely separate ways of getting that thing. Mm hmm. Like For a lot of art stuff, there is, you just have to do it and you just have to hope that, um, you manage to pick up popularity and that way you can make money off of it. And then you have to go to college for, for usually whatever other backup plan there is. Yeah. Like, arts and... Or a trade school. Anything else that's academic, really. Yeah, or a trade school. Yeah. is going to be two completely different paths. But the thing is, is that your backup plan then for going to college or a trade school is going to be, take up way more of your time. Yeah. Even though it shouldn't since it's your backup plan.
Tana:Yeah. That's, that's the tough thing I think for somebody who really like the, the, the honest truth is that the arts are difficult to make a living at. Yeah. Like, like not, it is rare. Um, uh, a lot of it's just a lot. Or, or sports or, yeah. I mean, a lot of it is being in the right place at the right time. A lot of it is connections. If you have connections, um, and you can be, and, and, and trust talent sometimes doesn't really matter. Like you can be the most talented. Yeah. You've gone to a modern
Malcolm:art museum.
Tana:Oh man. Yeah. That day, God, he was a, you know, um, the. Like, you can be super talented, but never be in the right place to be discovered or have the right connections to get in front of the right people. Like it's, so it's hard. Algorithms
Malcolm:online
Tana:can just screw you. Oh my God. Just like jump. Yeah. And it's so, it's so difficult, uh, because if you have a dream like that, you want to pursue it, but you also know, like, it's a small, it's a slim chance and, and to have like the backup plan. Like you said, unless you're just like, well, I'm going to wait tables until this happens. Um, you, you have to invest time. Um, that's basically where
Malcolm:I'm
Tana:at. Yeah. And
Malcolm:yeah. Um,
Tana:and that's, that's a difficult spot as a parent too, because, you know, logically like. That's going to be very difficult to break into and I want my child to be safe and financially secure and blah blah blah But you also don't want that to come across as like I don't think you're talented enough You know what I mean? Because that's not the issue at all. It's the just the odds, you know Yeah,
Malcolm:um, I mean, I'd be perfectly fine making a barely living wage while just doing stuff that I like so Cause I mean, I'm just, I'm doing my absolute damnedest to stay out of debt.
Tana:I, I, and you're doing a great job.
Malcolm:If I can do that, and I'm still only waiting tables or whatever frontline job I'm gonna have at that moment, that's honestly good enough cause I feel like debt is what really sinks people, not what job you have. Yep. Um, so. 100%? But yeah, if you go to, if you go to college and you want a backup plan to be something else, and your first plan is also college, then you're already set because you really just, if you have a degree, yeah, if you have a degree, then you automatically can.
Tana:That's getting a little better. I've noticed more and more listings that are like, no degree required, which is. Yes, which is nice, but it used to be like when I was growing up, everybody was, everybody was like, you better go to college or you're not going to get anything.
Malcolm:There was a couple like editing jobs that I saw where I needed a degree. Yeah. And I, and I like read the description and everything. And it was like, you need to know knowledge and this thing and this thing. I was like, why didn't you just put experience down? I know. Like going to college. I, well, no, I'm, I'm saying for editing specifically. Editing, you barely learn how to edit in college. All of it, all of the editing that you learn from college is by playing around with the program. That's, yeah. So if you play around with the program outside of college, you know, you know how to do it. Yeah,
Tana:I, I think the, the college degree should be... This could be a whole episode about what's wrong with the college system. There's so much wrong with the college system. Next episode! Yeah, not to mention like the debt you get into. Most people honestly would be better off going to a trade school. It's cheaper and then a lot of the trades get paid more. This has been a lot of the for
Malcolm:some reason trades are shames. I
Tana:don't understand it. Yeah, it's very well. It's it's it's uh, it's You know how it's always been like, you know blue blue collar, you know
Malcolm:People physical work people are also for some reason Like, get disgruntled about the easy way out. And it's like, why wouldn't you want to take the easy way out? Like, why wouldn't you want the easier thing? Go to, go to college for 10 years so you can finally become a doctor and make six figures, or go to college for two years. And make six figures. Right. Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, obviously there's a difference in what you want to do, but right. If you're purely looking at the numbers.
Tana:Oh, it makes way more sense to go for a trade. Yeah. I mean, honestly, it's, and it's kind of funny coming from me, because I have a PhD. And, well, but I can tell you, it is not worth it. It is, it's, it was expensive and I'm going to be paying, I will, my, my student loans will probably go away when I die. Like that's probably how it's going to be, you know, and now,
Malcolm:as long as the government doesn't make me inherit
Tana:them. No, if they, if you die, your student loans go away. Right now. Fair. I'll do my best. Um, yeah, so, um, oh, what was my train of thought? What
Malcolm:PhD? Paying it off for the rest of your life.
Tana:Don't remind me. Um, it's, you know, in my mind growing up and then even, you know, up until I was maybe 40, uh, college was like the end all be all. It's what you needed. And I thought a PhD would grant me access. And now granted at the time I wanted to be a professor, so it made sense. Um, but. I don't think my Ph. D. has really gotten me access to anything, uh, you know. Yeah. I mean, I can't say for sure. I mean, there may have been a job I got hired for, they're like, oh, she has a Ph. D. Like, I don't know if that could put me over the edge or anything, but there's like no Always, there's something. Yeah, there, I mean, but there's no like, like, Honestly, nothing that I'm aware of.
Malcolm:One of the biggest things is, uh, just your parents having your back, which is what you guys have always done for me. Um, I think college was like one of those things you guys really had trouble with trying to get behind me with, of not going anymore. I didn't. Um.
Tana:I worried about you.
Malcolm:Well, yeah, but that's that's what I'm saying is like there was a lot of sit downs and discussions for that more than Yeah,
Tana:I should say Yeah, I should sit. I should put it like this. I I didn't We were not the parents who were going to sit down and yell at you about going and making sure you went and, and all that stuff. Um, but I felt like I wanted to do our due diligence. Like I watched how much you hated it. I watched what it was doing to your psyche. And I was like, I want my child to stop doing this because he is unhappy. And so I immediately was like, don't go back. Like in my mind, I was like, don't go back. But then it was like, okay, this is a huge decision with long term ramifications, which your dad knows because he doesn't have a degree and he's had trouble his whole life getting jobs and stuff, you know? And um, and so I wanted to make sure we talked about it thoroughly. Yeah.
Malcolm:Yeah. Yeah, recently I, um, had an anxiety attack like same degree as I would have almost every day when going to school. And I was like, how did I live with
Tana:myself? Yeah, I don't know. You were, you always had anxiety issues, like even as a... As a toddler you didn't want to be dropped off at daycare and stuff.
Malcolm:I just yeah, I don't know what screw or school screwed with me Like I just and any time now that I feel the level of depression or anxiety that I had while I was in school I was like, I don't know how I did
Tana:this every day. Yeah, I don't know either School is not for everybody. It's just not no
Malcolm:it's not. Um, and Yeah, uh, I'm perfectly fine never going back and living with crappy jobs, so that's fine with me. I have made my peace.
Tana:Um. All I care about is whether or not you're happy. Well, I shouldn't say all I care about. I, I also want you to be clothed and fed and have a roof over your head and,
Malcolm:you know. I mean, that was also nice. But you guys, like, you guys weren't 18 and kicking me out of the... Oh
Tana:my God, I didn't want you to leave. I heard all these other parents that were like, Oh, I can't wait till they're out of the house. And I'm like, I don't want him to go.
Malcolm:Yeah.
Tana:Um, I just, I even hated it when you just kind of disappeared for a while when you first started dating Shelby and you guys just were always like, you were always at her place or you were like, you guys were always out and like, you were like, it was so sad to me. I was like, I don't even remember. I can't even see him anymore. Like we used to, cause we used to watch movies all the time. We used to do puzzles and all this stuff.
Malcolm:Yeah. Because you wouldn't even really see me in the morning. Cause I would, in the morning I would go to work and then like after work I would go to Shelby's or
Tana:something like that. So I wouldn't see you for days. And I was like so sad, and I was like, how do people, how are people like just like excited for their kid to be in the house? Like, I don't understand this because I am so sad. So like, yeah, so when um, now having you both here, I love it. I,
Malcolm:I, yeah. Yeah, that, that's also I think why there's like, I think... Right now as well, there's so many people that are just shutting their parents out.
Tana:Oh, going no
Malcolm:contact? Because their, their parents will be like, I want you out of the house or, you know, you just have to listen to me and that's it. And basically all of the negative things that we've talked about so far, sometimes a lot of those are wrapped up in one parent. And then, and then they'll get mad at their kids for, for not wanting to speak with them or anything like that. And it's like, how.
Tana:There was more, definitely that philosophy I remember growing up, which was basically, especially cause I grew up in a Christian context, right? So everything was about forgiveness. You need to forgive everything. Right. And there's, there's forgiveness, but then there's also protecting yourself. Like you can forgive and still remove yourself from the situation. Um, you know, and.
Malcolm:Yeah, because that's, that's like, that's not life. It's exactly putting yourself in a toxic situation and then just keep forgiving that person. And then they're like, no, I, if, if I ever had a friend that was constantly toxic to me all the time, first of all, they were never my friend to begin with because they were so toxic to me all the time and I just cut them out. I'm not going to try to be friends with you.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. I think we have this, I don't know how prevalent it is. It's in which generations and whatnot, but definitely like in my generation growing up, it was very like, family is family, you know, and you just forgive, forgive, forgive. And then you just like stick with that family, which to in a very, very basic sense, yeah, you like you people make mistakes, you forgive them everything. But that's very different from someone. Being, like you said, toxic or somebody denying the very fiber of who you are, somebody only demonstrating love and care for you if you behave in the ways that they want, you know, and, um, It's, it's kind of funny because I'm, I'm very pro going no contact if it is good for your mental health. Um, and I have to say that, um, I, it's not because I want to go no contact with my parents or I have or anything like that. Like I'm, I'm very connected to my parents and... I, you know, I go back to visit them often, you know, um, so I don't, I don't want to go no contact with them. I wouldn't, I wouldn't. Um, but witnessing like what the relationship I have with my family versus what some other people I know have with theirs, I'm like, yeah, you, your situation is bad. Like, yeah. You know, and um, especially when somebody's like, they, they come out as like gay or trans or, you know, and then their parents are like, basically like, yeah, like why would that kid want to stay in contact with you? Honestly, especially
Malcolm:there's some parents that will kick their family member out or like, we'll, we'll get mad at them, basically shut their family member out and then they'll get mad at the family member for not, Reaching
Tana:out to them. Uh huh. Oh, it's so it is this very weird feeling where they're like, well, I'm the parent you can't reject me I gave birth to you, you know, like And in a very visceral way I kind of I kind of get that especially because if you ever were like I'm gonna go no contact with you I would it would devastate me. That would be awful. I will be the worst thing for me Okay. Um,
Malcolm:okay. But,
Tana:but I don't know what parents expect when they treat their kids the way they do, especially if it's like parents who have abused their children when they were younger, like physically abused them. And then as an adult, they're like, well you should just forgive me for that, and we should, you know. Especially
Malcolm:if the parent had said something along the lines of, I'm not gonna do it anymore, and then did it again. Yeah. And then, even if the parent is being completely serious, and it's 100 percent going to happen that you're not gonna do it again, there's never gonna be any of that trust.
Tana:Well, and sometimes as, uh, older, they refuse, they refuse to admit that. It was their fault. That, yeah. Or that they even did it, you know. Yeah. So, so yeah, um, I hope nobody, anybody listening to this, I hope they don't have to go no contact with their parents, but um, I also hope you choose it if it's what's right for your mental health. Yeah. You know, like you have to.
Malcolm:Even distancing is okay. Yeah. Like, it doesn't have to be no contact. Right. You can just give your, like, if you say, I need some
Tana:space. Base. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And, and if you're a parent and your kid has gone on no contact with you, you may want to take a look at your behavior. Yes. Yeah. So. Man, we covered a lot of stuff. We did. It's an
Malcolm:hour in. Are we
Tana:an hour in? Yeah. Oh my God.
Malcolm:Welp. Oh, goodbye! Gotta get somewhere. I, uh,
Tana:I think, I think maybe we, we need to do our Midwestern goodbye. Time to go.