Why does job searching suck? Why do you have to upload a resume and then re-enter everything online? How is it possible that "no one wants to work anymore," but those looking for jobs can't find them? Malcolm and Tana discuss this and more in our first look at the job market.
Why does job searching suck? Why do you have to upload a resume and then re-enter everything online? How is it possible that "no one wants to work anymore," but those looking for jobs can't find them? Malcolm and Tana discuss this and more in our first look at the job market.
Hey, Malcolm. Hi. What's up? What's
Tana:up? Before we get started, I just have to say, I just saw a quick advertisement for a baby shark movie and I'm a little disturbed by it, but anyway. What? Baby shark, baby shark.
Malcolm:But why is it disturbing?
Tana:There's a whole movie about baby shark. Okay. Oh, okay. Sorry. I find that whole thing really super annoying and I'm also really impressed by its staying power. Fair enough. I mean, it really is impressive.
Malcolm:Jamie Tartt! Oh right! I forgot about
Tana:that.
Malcolm:That's all that I can think of now. Tens Lasso has saved me on a lot of
Tana:Oh man, that was so good for our mental health during COVID. Oh my god. Yeah, anyway, so, uh, how, uh, how's your, uh, how's your job search going?
Malcolm:Terrible. Horrible. Wanna cry. How'd you do this for one and a half years?
Tana:It was terrible, it was horrible, and I wanted to
Malcolm:cry! I mean, yeah, fair enough. No,
Tana:I mean, seriously, it was, I was depressed most of the time, and then, you know, there was all these other things that happened during it, and just made things worse, and, um, yeah.
Malcolm:It's weird because, like, I mean, first of all, you definitely had it. worse off than I do because you are Give it time! You are probably overqualified for a lot of your jobs, which is why you didn't get it. For me it's just like, I don't know, it's not, I guess it is lack of jobs, but the thing is that I chose, I didn't realize it at the time, but I chose the worst timing to quit my previous
Tana:job. I could have sworn I told you that it was the worst timing.
Malcolm:I don't
Tana:remember. You don't listen to me.
Malcolm:I know, well, I know you guys said that I should find something first. I don't remember you guys saying it was bad timing. I just didn't realize that so many places were going like, um, The week that I was quitting, we're basically going to be closing their job applications for the season because they'll have all their hires for the
Tana:But Malcolm, what I'm hearing from all the people is that there are so many jobs and the problem with your generation is you just don't want to work.
Malcolm:Yep, that's it. You cracked it. I've been lying.
Tana:I'm an asshole. Well, that's beside the point. Yeah, that's what's been interesting. So what is, how long have you been looking? Because you started looking even before you left your job.
Malcolm:Right? Barely, but yeah, um, because I mean the idea is I wanted to do something in the area that's easy for me to get to like within five minutes or so. Mm hmm. Which is even harder for me because I don't like to drive and Well, you
Tana:can't currently drive by
Malcolm:yourself. Well, yeah, and Toledo isn't a good bike city.
Tana:No, it's not. At all. It's getting better, but it's not. Barely. It's, it, it is. It depends on where you
Malcolm:live. Yeah, where we live right now is not great because we're next to the trail. Right, right. And there's nothing really,
Tana:like. Which trail is like a, not a highway, but like a, I don't know how to explain it to people who don't live here. It's a sub highway. Yeah, I don't know, yeah. Busy, busy 50 mile per hour. Three lane road. Three lane, yeah, three lanes each way, you know.
Malcolm:Um, but yeah, there's just like, there's, we're in all the neighborhood areas and there are parks and stuff, but it's mostly just sidewalks, not like bike, uh,
Tana:walks, lanes.
Malcolm:Well, I don't want to say lanes because those imply they're on the road and those are terrible because we do have some of those paths. Yeah. Bike paths. Yeah. Bike walks. Bike walks. Um. But, uh, yes, we have, I was actually told by someone who worked at the Department of Transportation because they were driving their vehicle next to me while I was on the road to go ride on the bike paths. You were on your electric wheel? Yeah, I was on my electric unicycle. Okay. And, um, They're like, ride in the bike lanes or on a bike path. And I was like, I will when you add some. Right, right. I don't understand what, you work for the Department of Transportation. I'm allowed, I'm legally allowed to ride on the
Tana:road. Oh, your dad had a police officer say to him while he was, this was I think before he got his wheel. I think this was when he was on a bike. And they were like, get on the sidewalk. And he's like, do you not know the law? It's
Malcolm:actually more favorable to be on the road than it is on the sidewalk.
Tana:Well, as long as you're going the right direction. One of the things that really annoys me is when I see a cyclist, uh, driving the wrong way or driving, riding their bike the wrong way. Yes. Um, and because it just makes it. Makes people angrier at cyclists and makes it harder for the ones who, in case you are listening and don't know if you are riding your bicycle, you go with the flow of traffic. If you're walking, you go against the flow of
Malcolm:traffic. Here's the thing. If you're riding against traffic, it'll hurt more. If you're riding with traffic, it won't hurt
Tana:as much. It also increases the likelihood of an accident if you're going against traffic and, oh my god, yeah. So, I've seen so many people doing that recently. Anyway.
Malcolm:The area sucks for it, in general, and, um, and so I want a good area that I can ride to. But the thing is Toledo is also pretty shit about their snow removal So I'm also so I like want something that's closer rather than further Right in an area where I know that the snow is gonna get removed because they don't do like any sidewalk or park removals
Tana:Which is you know, I don't know what I don't know what the rules are here But I remember when we were in Blacksburg Yeah. That was very annoying. Yeah. Well, again, you know, I mean, it took so long to, like, I remember when I was in Myrtle Hatton High School, we at least did the March once before thatAPS rush hour, we had like, 10 teams who were naprawdę, like, non AOL teams. Oh, I remember. I mean, you walk, you go to Ramksy TV who's a, uh, an assistant football player for the Pittsburgh Rockets. um, And so, so Calabresi is ice cold, you know, it's freezing too. And, um, I had a coworker at my house town in Massachusetts, The bus to campus and then take another bus from campus to like my doctor's appointments and stuff like that. And so campus was always shoveled and everything, you know, but then you would get out into the town and I would end up like slogging through snow on the sidewalks. And I'm thinking to myself, this really super sucks for people in wheelchairs or people. Pushing babies in strollers or like, um, but what I was told then was that it's the business's responsibility to shovel the sidewalks in front of their businesses and the homeowners too. And so if they don't do it, then, you know, and some people just don't care.
Malcolm:Yeah, no, I, I think it would make more sense to me for it to be a public service. Because, especially since they don't really enforce a lot of public service stuff like that because just so many people won't or won't or don't do it that they're not going to hound every single person that doesn't do it. Right, right.
Tana:And, um Well, it's like a civil lawsuit kind of thing if there's a problem because of it. Yeah.
Malcolm:You know? Yeah, so between the snow and the crappy bike area, it's, uh Your options are limited. Yeah, my options are very
Tana:limited. Well, I mean, I suppose you could, uh, get to know the bus schedule.
Malcolm:I could, but I also just hate public transportation. It's scary.
Tana:It's, it feels scary when you first start and then you get to know it. I
Malcolm:guess. It also just feels scarier on a city bus than a, like, a campus bus. Because for some reason that always feels more reliable than the city ones. Hmm. Uh, I don't know why. I don't know if it's just because college ones are typically more upkept than city transportation is. Well,
Tana:it's also a smaller service area. Yeah, that too. I mean, so I think that's probably what you're thinking, because in Blacksburg in particular it was like such a short ride to campus and then, you know. Um, and also here we have a hub and spoke system, which means you go downtown. To get the bus to go somewhere else unless you happen to be right on the route, right? Yeah, um, and that means it can take you like an hour to get to work, you know,
Malcolm:yeah, we also just Even though we don't we don't have a good bike system. We also don't have a very good walking system Here in this
Tana:area. There's lots of places without sidewalks and then lots of places with Sidewalks
Malcolm:that are busted up. There's also so many of the lights in the area that don't have a working crosswalk Like, uh, the, like, the light for the crosswalk, um, or it's missed times, like, there's some where it tells you to keep walking even though the, the light is green the other direction. Well,
Tana:I mean, you could keep walking if you
Malcolm:wanted. If you were in New York, you would keep walking. Yes, you would, you would, totally. Um, but, yeah, so it's just like, I feel like I don't wanna, I, I don't know why, but I am just such a transportation anxious person. I do not, Like, the only thing that I like doing is walking short distances, or, uh, I barely even like riding anymore. I used to like riding over cars, and cars gave me so much anxiety, but now, after a couple things had happened, with just people either like, following me, or hounding at me, or etc., then, you know, I was getting anxious about that too, and so it's just like. I don't know. It's, I don't know, it's such like a deep rooted anxiety for me for transportation. That's difficult to get over. It's just like how, especially city living works. Yeah. And, so I can't find anywhere nearby that's good. And, yeah, it's just
Tana:Yeah, so then your choices are to find something further out and then you're just gonna have to really work through that anxiety, which is going to be a lot of effort and struggle. Um, and then you've tried finding online jobs, right? And you've had a difficulty. I mean, that's a lot of competition.
Malcolm:Yeah. It's also hard to look up exactly what I want on certain things because a lot of things don't have like any audio or video editors. It just says editor and then you get all the writing, writing, editing jobs too. And I'm like, I don't want to do
Tana:all those. You're talking about like funneling out. Yeah.
Malcolm:Yeah, because almost every single email that I get is for writing, editing, and not actually
Tana:for There's probably a way to do like an advanced search on whichever thing you're doing. We can look into that later. Yeah.
Malcolm:Um, I mean, I think the hardest part as well is there's just nothing I actually want to do either. The only things that I want to do are things that don't
Tana:make me money. Right. But you have to make money obviously. So you have to do something you don't want to do.
Malcolm:Which, but then, you know, having to then work a job to make money to support the habit that I want to turn into a, a job then takes up a lot of my time that I can use for that. Right. Or not habit, hobby, for that hobby that, um, I can then turn into a job, so it's just like, kicking myself in, in my ass, so.
Tana:Yeah, I mean, that's the really tough thing about, um, arts. Well, yeah, there's that, but, um, you know, I originally wanted to be a movie composer, and, uh, and then when I graduated, um, your dad wanted to go to school, and, uh. We were already married and, uh, you know, I was also always interested in what the inner workings of an orchestra. So I kind of, uh, peddled my music degree into a job at an orchestra. And that's how I got into fundraising. And I've been doing for most of my life now. Um, so yeah, I mean, you know, the thing that sucks is, and I know you know this, that sometimes you just have to take jobs you don't like, but I know that you're even struggling finding those. Yeah. Um,
Malcolm:the thing is like at first I wanted to try to find the jobs or I wanted to apply and see if I could get the jobs that I actually liked first and then apply for the. For the other jobs for those didn't work out But then the problem with waiting is and then those other jobs also become full right and so on and so forth And so now I'm like applying to another place nearby and then if that doesn't work I'm gonna have to apply to somewhere so slightly further and then at that point it's gonna be slightly further and further,
Tana:you know speaking as from the point of view of somebody who was Unemployed for a year and a half, I would recommend just applying everywhere all at once. There's a problem with that too,
Malcolm:though, is so many places respond to you at different times.
Tana:So?
Malcolm:So, like, if there was somewhere else I wanted to work, but they took so long to email me back, or to start an interview with me because I already had an interview somewhere else, Am I just supposed to keep the other jobs on hold, telling them whether or not I'll actually start or not, if they have already None of these
Tana:jobs would be loyal to you in any way. You just start the job because you don't know how long it's going to be until you would find a job that you really want. And if you find the job you really want, you quit the other job. It just feels so crappy though. I know, I know, but there's like There's zero loyalty for, for the types of jobs that you're looking for. This is true. Cause you're, you're I'm front line. Right. You're like customer service, that kind of thing. Right? Retail, food, um I don't know if
Malcolm:I want to do
Tana:food again. Like, they're not going to have any loyalty to their employees. Like, they just You know, they drop people all the time.
Malcolm:Yeah. It's man, it's absurd to me how crazy some of that stuff is. What do you
Tana:mean?
Malcolm:Just like my, uh, previous job that I quit for, for reasons you're about to hear. Um, we just like, just, uh, decided to like start cutting my friend slash co workers hours without telling her anything and then when she asked about it they basically just told her that she wasn't good enough and that's why they were cutting her hours. Well,
Tana:that sucks, but if someone's not performing well, I get that.
Malcolm:Nobody thought that she wasn't performing well. Oh, really?
Tana:Well, I mean, clearly the person who said that did. Only the
Malcolm:boss, that was it. Everyone else was fine. So there's no complaints, at least that I'm aware of. Hmm. There is, I
Tana:don't know. So do you think the assessment of the boss could have been that far off from the assessment of coworkers? No.
Malcolm:What?
Tana:Did I mishear you?
Malcolm:Maybe.
Tana:What did you say? So you, you said that nobody else was complaining about her work. Yeah. Which I'm taking to mean co workers. Yes. But then the boss was like, you're not performing well. Yes. Um, so my question is, it was the boss that, like, that off the mark from the assessment of the co worker. You know what I'm saying?
Malcolm:Like. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They, they were off. Mark, I guess I must have just, I don't know, I must have just heard you wrong and interpreted it wrong.
Tana:I guess I'm trying to, I don't think I'm articulating myself well. Because there's a difference I think between how coworkers may perceive each other versus how a boss might perceive an employee. But, I was thinking in general if that person wasn't performing well and causing you all to have to take on more work,
Malcolm:then Yeah, it would have only been through us that it would be
Tana:harder. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. And the worst
Malcolm:part is then a really good coworker can make someone look bad just because they like to do everything and they're fine with doing everything so they just do everything before the other person can and then it makes that person look bad.
Tana:You know, I am so far removed from these types of jobs. That I, I have a hard time like,
Malcolm:Oh, we could do a whole
Tana:episode about this. understanding, remembering, because there, there's a very, it's a very different environment from like an office job, right? Like, like the kind of thing I have. And, you know, uh, I remember a couple times when I, while I was unemployed, there were people that were just like, well, why don't you just go get like a job at Starbucks or something? And there were a couple of different reasons for that. One was, you know, your dad had a job and uh, so he had the car. So I had limited transportation ability. Um, but also I was getting clients here and there. I wasn't that actively pursuing clients because I preferred to find a full time job. Um, but I had done enough client work in the past that I had previous clients and referrals and former coworkers approach me, uh, during that time of unemployment and say, Oh, Hey, could you help me out with this project? And the money I would make from the project would be like, like, Not, not that much, not that many hours, but would be the equivalent of me working like full time at Starbucks for three months or something. You know what I mean? Like, so it wasn't worth it for me to take my time and energy and put it into that type of job when I could. You know, spend my time investing in a job search and also, you know, doing the client work. You know what I mean? Yeah. Cause unfortunately with my chronic illness, if I had to work full time at a job like that, I would have had zero energy when I got home to do any client work or look for jobs. Yup. There's no way. I understand that. Well, I know, I know you, I just, I can't even imagine doing that anymore. Uh, Just with my level of illness. So anyway, so yeah, job searching is fun.
Malcolm:It's, it also sucks because like a lot of places also don't want to do full time because they don't want to give you any benefits. But they'll still work you 40 hours anyways, but they'll consider you part time.
Tana:I'm not sure that's entirely legal. You know what?
Malcolm:I've worked so many places for like 35 to 38 or 9 hours.
Tana:I feel like maybe there's a consistency rule there, like if you're consistently working a certain number of hours, I don't even think it has to be 40, I think it might be like 35 or something, then that's a misclassification issue. But then, if you're only occasionally doing it, I think it's acceptable. I'm not
Malcolm:sure. It just feels, it all just feels fishy sometimes and um, another thing I've been struggling with lately as well is like mom and pop shops versus like chains, chain stuff, because part of me is like, oh yeah, I want to support the local businesses, but a lot of the local businesses can also just be jerks and are way, can screw you over way easier than I am. A chain can, because a chain always has a rigid structure to it that already has everything implemented. But, the mom and pop shop is like, why I keep ending up with crappy schedule times, bad bosses, and, I mean, you can have bad bosses anywhere,
Tana:but. Yes, you can. But, uh. Yeah, no, I get you. I get what you're saying because sometimes the mom and pop things, there's, there's like more of like a fun element and, and a little more relaxation. Yes, sometimes it's
Malcolm:really, really, like I've heard some like amazing stuff about some mom and pop shops and the working experience, but then I've heard some like crazy horror stories from other mom and pop shops. Yeah, because
Tana:a lot of them don't have like, So, um, there's policies and procedures in place, which some, some policies and procedures can be really restrictive and annoying. You'd be like, why is this a part? This is so dumb, you know, but having a lot of that stuff in place makes things clear for employees. And, you know, I know I hate when I'm in a situation where I do not understand like what the rules are.
Yeah.
Malcolm:My other reason I quit my previous job is because I wouldn't get told anything, but I'd get scolded for doing something wrong.
Tana:Oh, it's like, um, It's kind of like in school when, uh, I remember when you first started at MV and, uh, there were like all these hidden roles and you did this one assignment and it was a poster board. And there was nothing in the, in the assignment description that said that you had to use like bright colors or like do any of this stuff. Right. So you did your poster board and you wrote it in like pen, which is just not what you usually do with poster board stuff. But that was the first time you'd ever done a poster board presentation. And so they, um, and they knocked off. Points, because it wasn't colorful and it wasn't colorful and bold enough and all this stuff and I remember going in and arguing and saying, but you didn't put that in the
Malcolm:assignment. Oh my, I had so many arguments with teachers in so many classes. And actually, for the most part, one thing that's good about MV is a lot of the teachers will be like, you know what, fair enough. And then just like kick you back up. Yeah. But, um. Man, there were so many times where I'd be like, why are you knocking this off? You didn't say that this was a thing. Right. And there, and you know, the good thing is, okay, I won't do it this time, but next time. Now, you know, now, you know. Yeah.
Tana:Right. But yeah, that was like those hidden rules things where people just have these expectations. Like, but, but this is what you do. Like, this is what a poster looks like. Like, okay, well, um, Um, you were not going to school there this whole time, so you didn't, you know, have that experience. And so if that's not, and if that's not listed as part
Malcolm:of the grade. My school was full of overachievers as well. So like, well, there's that, you know, like everyone, everyone had these crazy 3D posters. Yeah. I was like, what the heck is going on here? Hologram in front. I was like, I could barely afford a pen for this assignment. What the heck?
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. And, and so, yeah, it's like you're being graded on a criteria you were never given. And so, yeah, I hate that in a job situation, too.
Malcolm:Did like my one teacher, though, because he would tell you exactly what he wanted, and if you didn't do it, then you'd get points knocked off, period. But if you could argue for a good reason why, then he would keep the points, but One thing is that he always had four page papers, and he never wanted it to be more, and he never wanted it to be less, unless it was so good that it was able to do that. He was like, if I could sit there and read through all nine pages and not realize that the time has gone by, then I'll give you a good grade. More power to you, dude, nine pages. And he was like, if you make an amazing paper in two pages Right. And
Tana:there you go. Right. Yeah. The problem is too many students think they can do an amazing paper.
Malcolm:That's why I just went for four pages. And I'm
Tana:like, nope, that's really not good enough. But, but yeah, so hidden rules. I remember that being an issue in school and, um, it's an issue at work too. And I think that happens in, in, you know, jobs like mine too, where, you know, your, um, things aren't clear and miscommunication, miscommunication, especially, uh, remote. Oh my gosh. You know, that can be difficult. Another thing with my
Malcolm:previous job, um, Is my boss would say, basically me and another coworker would have, not an argument, but we would debate on who is correct about something and we'd both be like, well the boss said to do this part. There was so many times that that happened. So many times. And I was like, how are you giving this much misinformation about so many different things? Like why are you changing your mind on things
Tana:so much? When it comes down to honestly, in a lot of these situations is, uh, communication. Most, most organizations are really terrible at communication. It's like the easiest thing to do.
Malcolm:It's called opening your mouth.
Tana:Well, yeah, but no, like easy to do in theory, but well, yeah, but you get busy and you think you autumn. One of the things I think we make a mistake we make, wait, I just started that sentence and then was like, nah, I lost the construction partway through. Something humans do a lot is we think, we assume people know what we know. And I, I've actually been doing this to your dad a lot lately and he's getting super frustrated because he's like, you never told me that this is happening. And I'm like, right, but I know it. So why don't you just know it? You know? And so I think it's a very human tendency to just think, Oh, everybody knows the things that I know, especially if you're in a very high paced environment and like you're trying to like survive. Right. And then you're not thinking, Oh, so and so needs to know this, which is why you need like processes and you know, some kind of mechanism to prompt that.
Malcolm:Well, yeah, but that's what I'm saying is like, I don't understand why so many places don't just write stuff down. It is so easy just to write down all, all the rules, or list out the information, or to write the set of directions. Everything like that.
Tana:No one does it. I think, I think, and so, this is actually something I've done for a lot of places. Is, as a consultant, and your father too, is I've gone into places and helped them create the things to write down. You know, like, help them write the things down. Because so many people, it's just the, the last thing they think about. They just think How? Because they just think, what's more important? Serving the coffee to the person who comes through the door or writing this procedure down. Oh my
Malcolm:gosh, you sound exactly like my old boss.
Tana:But I said, but that's what I said that they think, right? Oh my gosh. So
Malcolm:I was
Tana:right. That was so on point. See, I'm
Malcolm:a very good consultant. Yeah, you are. This, I just, I did not understand her old school way of thinking at all.
Tana:Well, that's the other thing. There's generational differences in, in all of this, right? She was
Malcolm:also like, make sure you like, try to get other people's orders out first before helping people at the register. Because once they sit down, the waiting begins. I'm like, okay, who is standing and who is
Tana:sitting? Well, I think there's a balance there from my recollection from customer service days, but that would be a whole rabbit trail, but
Malcolm:I Would rather sit and actually start conversing with whoever I'm with rather than standing in line looking around and waiting Especially at the place that I worked when the register was right in front of the door So two people could fit before the line had to like either go cockeye or out the door, right?
Tana:Yeah yeah, I think there's a balance there, but um That would be a very long discussion But anyway, yeah One of, it's, it's one of the communication is one of the absolute worst things. And now we're talking about management instead of job searching.
Malcolm:Part of it is about the way that places are managed because like, I like some of it is if the, like a lot of mom and pop shops will also take longer to respond to you, whereas more corporate things will be faster to respond to you. But it might like, you might have to go through a lot of just like, Random internet, like, filing stuff that you have to do all over. Yeah. Like, I When applying to Kroger, I had to type like the same thing in like five different times and I'm like, just copy and fucking paste. Yeah. It's a computer. You know how this works. You know
Tana:what's so funny is that is such a common complaint, even for like, um, higher, higher level positions, not all the way up to like executives, but, but there's so many sites. That are like, upload your resume. And then you fill out your resume. And then you have to fill it out. Yeah. It makes zero sense. It doesn't make any sense to me. Like if you're gonna make people fill it out anyway, then why are you asking for the upload?
Malcolm:is the freaking websites. Yeah. Between, between jobs and colleges, I have learned how to navigate the toughest websites on the fucking internet. It is so absurd. It is not that. It's really
Tana:absurd. You're right.
Malcolm:Okay. I think in general the overall problem with all this job searching stuff is formatting.
Tana:There's That's funny. There. There, well, it actually one of, um, another thing that's where hidden rules come in again with, uh, for job searching because there's all these things that you don't know the employer's looking for. Um, yeah. Uh. Um, you really have an advantage if you can hire like a career coach and a resume builder. Um, you know what I mean? I mean maybe not for, um, the types of jobs you're applying for, but, um, yeah, it's,
Malcolm:I don't know. It's, I think it might be at the, uh, uh, somewhat the opposite where I'm filling out all of the stuff that I've done, like, you know, being, you know, working on podcast stuff for the past, like, However many years of my life. How many years? Five years of my life. And then also being a leader at this place and also working at this place. And I'm like, I'm applying to Kroger. None of this matters. I'm just going to get hired anyway.
Tana:Well, maybe they want to see some kind of experience. Well, yeah,
Malcolm:but it's like It, I mean, maybe if, okay, maybe if I was applying specifically to be like the cashier, it wouldn't matter, but I am applying for some of like the stocking stuff. I don't know if they would want more experience for that, but
Tana:I have no idea. I really, I really don't know anymore what those kinds of, um, requirements are. And actually I don't, I never supervised that like level of employee Um, all most of my retail and food jobs I just had as a way to make some money and I never like worked my way up in any of them, you know what I mean? Um, so I don't really know, like what do you look for in a, in a job that for a lot of people is their first job ever? Yeah. What do you look for in an employee there, you know? I, I don't, I don't know. And also it's
Malcolm:like, it's kind of interesting. Uh, how like the older you get, just the harder it is for you to get hired? Yeah. It's really, that's so strange to me, because when you want the person that's more I feel like if I was on the hiring team, I would, like, unless it was a physical job, but
Tana:I'll tell you, I'll tell you why I think most people, uh, get rejected is because, uh, they're afraid you're just going to leave if you're overqualified. There's that crap
Malcolm:again. I don't understand about the terror in this. You're paying for people either way. And so many of these places leave up, uh, this is cause this is a problem I'm having is so many places leave up there. Um, they're, yeah, they're hiring posts or whatever it is, so they have a bunch of resumes and backlog for if somebody leaves. I
Tana:know.
Malcolm:So if they have that, but they also aren't gonna hire people because they're overqualified and think they're just gonna leave immediately, you gotta have, you gotta find some kind of mediator.
Tana:It costs a lot of money to hire someone, and it costs a lot of money for turnover and everything, so I think what they think they're doing is playing the odds, you know what I mean? You know, and I, I have to say there are some jobs I applied for that I thought were a stretch for me. And then there are other jobs I applied for that were, I was clearly overqualified for. And I had trouble getting either one of those. Uh, you know, and so I had to try to find the job that was like exactly right for my, you know, level of experience. Uh, it was shocking to me how long it took me to find a job. And now granted I started looking for a job about two months before I was laid off. And then like a month after I was laid off is when the job market went to shit. It was like, and now we suck. You know, So I've seen so many posts from LinkedIn. I've seen some shit. Yeah. I've seen so many posts on LinkedIn now from people who are like, oh, uh, you know, I've been searching for 12 months now and, you know, I
Malcolm:used to get, I, I see a lot of those on Glassdoor. Oh, really?'cause I get emails from Glassdoor. I. I get
Tana:a little unfairly, I was getting a little unfairly angry when somebody would be like, I'm desperate, I've been unemployed for two months. And I'm like, two months? Try over a year, pal. Like, you know, I just get kind of unfairly frustrated. But, um, but yeah, it's, uh, I, I am, I, I can not, I cannot guarantee this, but I'm pretty sure I got turned down from some jobs because of my age. I think some, some possibly because of overqualification, but, um, I would look up, I would always check and try to see if I could find who took my place because in a lot of these positions there are people who would be listed on the website, you know? And it was almost always, always someone at least 15 years my junior, you know, um, 15 years younger.
Malcolm:Yes. Okay, 15 years my junior did not
Tana:That's another way of saying it. Uh, so 15, yes, 15 years younger than me, which is so depressing to say. And, uh, and yeah, it would just be like some young, perky, excited person. Ew. And, and, and I'm just, yeah. And it was, it was very frustrating because I'd be like, man, you don't know what you're missing. I could really come in there and and that's the thing
Malcolm:I don't want to say. I feel like I would always hire the older people because they actually know what they're doing. It's like I
Tana:said, it's a mixed bag on what people think with that. Like they're
Malcolm:It doesn't seem like it. It seems pretty consistent to be a younger
Tana:appeal. That's okay. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah, because it's not lost on me that when I finally found this job, I was hired by people who Um, are older than I am. I think some stuff
Malcolm:is also just socially pushed that way. Like, for some reason, just the way of thinking in business and hiring is just to go for the younger person with the, that just graduated from college. Now,
Tana:I bet you some of the time, it's because they think they can get them for less money.
Malcolm:Mm, that's true. I didn't think about the fact that some jobs don't just have like a base salary or a base hourly.
Tana:range, and so they're like, oh, I can get this person at the bottom of our range. That
Malcolm:is true, that's fair. Yeah, yeah. That's also kind of pathetic. Yeah. To think
Tana:that way. Well, honestly, I think a lot of the thought process, um, is also, you know, longevity of like how long they could be around. But nowadays, like, nobody really stays at jobs for a long period of time. So it's not like, oh, if I hire this 27 year old, they're gonna stick around longer than this 45 year old. Probably not. Like, people move around jobs so much more now.
Malcolm:Yeah, and I, and, um, yeah, especially because we talked about this, uh, in previous episodes, like, so many more people are willing to quit now. Yes. If, like, something bad happens.
Tana:Well, there's More people are, are pushing back against toxic work environments. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's a lot more, yeah, there's a lot more willingness to be like, well, I don't need to put up with this. I'm going to take my talents elsewhere.
Malcolm:Yes. I, you know, I quit the zoo because HR was being, uh, discriminatory. And then a few months later they got a thing that, um, kept HR in check about, with, uh, discrimination. So, yeah.
Tana:Well, I, to be fair, it wasn't like, um, it was, it wasn't like against like disabled people or something like that. It was, what
Malcolm:was it? It was tattoos, piercings, hair color. I
Tana:just didn't want to paint the wrong picture that it was like some kind of terrible, like, yeah, no, it
Malcolm:was a lot of like, More LGBT leading type stuff.
Tana:I didn't know that part. No,
Malcolm:I just meant a lot of people in the LGBT community usually get piercings or tattoos, or it's just much more common in that community, so. Gotcha. Okay. I don't know if that's the reason why they did it, or if it's I mean, no, I think it's an old school. Yeah. It seemed like just an old school mindset of just like, you shouldn't have tattoos.
Tana:Right, right, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of that old school mentality there. And so, yeah, that's probably just where that came
Malcolm:from. Which I felt really bad for when all that was going on. And one of the leaders was someone who had like hot pink hair, piercings and tattoos all over her body. Well, there you go. So she would have gotten all three.
Tana:Yeah.
Malcolm:Um, but, yeah, so, um, I obviously didn't alone make a difference in that, but there's a lot of people that quit because of that, or, um, a lot of people that are fired because of that, and, uh, a lot of the, basically all of the departments were against HR with it, so. Yeah, that's what I heard, yeah. So it wasn't, it definitely wasn't gonna last, but. Sure, yeah. I also just, I had heard some.
Tana:Well, I heard there was some supervisor who were like, I'm not going to enforce that.
Malcolm:Yeah, that's basically what a lot of the departments were like. But, you know, there's just some stuff I heard about what HR was trying to do. And so I was just like, no.
Tana:Yeah, gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah, it's, man, I'll tell you, it is not, it's not a pretty picture out there. And um, if you're, if you have to job search, and I know it's very different for someone looking for your type of job versus, uh, my type of job. And I, I'm, I'm debating how much I should, should say about looking for my type of job because. Some of the complaints seem kind of, you know, petty. I
Malcolm:don't know, I think petty can be good sometimes.
Tana:Well, I have some non petty things, like one is ghosting. That's just absurd. Here's where I think it's absurd. Like, I understand not getting back to every single person who applies. I understand that, because you can get a lot of applicants and, um, I personally think it'd be great if you could have a
Malcolm:form letter. So yeah, you can just set up a bot to do that.
Tana:Yeah. Yeah. I mean especially a lot of these places that I know I'm applying to that have an HR
Malcolm:system. Just have a bot that knows two letters N
Tana:O. Right. And a lot of these, I've been on the back end of some of these recruiting systems and it's really super easy. You just move person to the rejected pile and um, pile rejected. Call them on their computer screen or whatever. Um, and it spits out an email. It's like a form email. Like, sorry, we didn't, you know, yeah, easy peasy. But, um, I had several, I interviewed with around 30 companies I think. And, um, I had several who, uh, just didn't get back to me even after an interview, which to me is just atrocious. Like sometimes it was a first interview, like a phone screen or something. But, um, There was like, well, actually not this time I was job searching, but another time I was one of three final candidates and I went in person for an interview and they just never got back to me. That's, that's crazy. Yeah. I even sent a thank you afterwards and then I even sent a follow up email. Nada. Which is just like, super rude. You know what I mean? Yeah. But, um, what was unbelievable to me was a number of times people were like, Oh, well, we're going to let you know. Um, like next week, if you're going to be, you know, one of our final candidates and then they would just never email me again, you know, and it's just, that's just ridiculous. So like, there's a lot wrong with recruiting. I think there there's for these types of positions, like the ones I would be looking for middle management, basically, like it's just, they really need to
Malcolm:improve. It's also a lot of places that don't think that Like, your type of job is necessary, which is also absurd to me. What do you mean? Like, there's a lot your job is a lot of communication stuff, or like, fixing stuff up to make it Well,
Tana:right now I'm doing grants, which is, um Raising money, which is essential.
Malcolm:Well, yes, but I meant like when you were part of the communication department, they were just like, yeah, let's just take away the whole department.
Tana:Well, that's, and that's, that goes back to the thing about communications, right? About how it is very important, but most a lot of companies just don't invest the time or money into, into that. They're just, they just don't think it's, it's, it's almost like a, um, Inherent, like, oh, everybody can communicate. We know how to communicate. I used to get that as a freelance writer and be like, well, we can write, everyone can write. And I'm like, but can you write well?
Malcolm:If I was running a business and there were investors and they wanted to change how things worked in my company just because they had a lot of money in my company, No. Right. No. I don't care about you. I care about your money. And if you don't want to give me your money anymore, that's fine too. Um. Your opinions are invalid. Your opinions are invalid. Are invalid, you invalid.
Tana:So anyway, I, I, yeah, there's a lot of problems in the recruiting sphere, I think. And I've, I've seen some recruiters talk about it too, and be like, yo. Guys, we suck at this.
Malcolm:Yo, guys!
Tana:Hey! Listen to me! Uh, but, yeah, um, You may be bad
Malcolm:guy, but you are not bad guy. I don't know why that's where my brain went. Ant Man? No, that's, uh, Wreck It Ralph. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, they're all sitting down in that villains meeting and they're like, you may be a bad guy, but you are not a bad guy. It was like the
Tana:second one, wasn't it? No, it was the first one. It was the first one. You're right. You're right. Wow. I got, I got really far off on that one. Um, but yeah, there's, it's really rough out there and I wish people could make it. A lot better just by communicating better. Also improving their processes, like just the constant having to type stuff in online is just, that's ridiculous. Um,
Malcolm:I just, I, dude, does redundancy not, like, register in a lot of people's brains
Tana:or something? No, it does not. It does not. You know, it's really interesting.
Malcolm:It's one of those, uh, you know those word things where, like, sometimes they'll have and and next to each other and they see if you can spot it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, I always, I don't understand how people go over that stuff. It trips me up when I'm reading, so I don't know how people I guess people just, like, their brains see a redundancy and so then they're just like, well, if it's It's there twice, so my brain only needs to make it happen once anyway.
Tana:The Department of Redundancy Department.
Malcolm:Yep. ATM machine.
Tana:Oh, right. Panera Bread. Yep.
Malcolm:There's a lot of those foreign word ones.
Tana:Yeah, yeah, because they're translating or whatever. But, I lost what I was going to say because you interrupted me. I'm sorry. Jeez, Malcolm.
Malcolm:Gosh. My parents raised me better, I swear.
Tana:I don't know. I don't trust those fools. Well, I don't think we even really fully scratched the surface on, um, On, on this, on, on job applications and the job search. And there's so many people doing it right now that I think it'd be great if maybe we, um, you know, cause it's getting to be about that time, if maybe we do a second one and maybe try to, you know, and then there's internships. So we can do some more complaining, but I also think it would be great, like maybe we can think about some positive things, you know, maybe by the time we do a part two, um, you'll have found something and you can talk about some positive things. I can talk about me finally getting my job. In the in
Malcolm:between as well, why don't people send us They're horror stories for job searching or Yeah, we could share some. Yeah, we could share some and talk about it. I think that would be fun.
Tana:Absolutely. Oh my gosh, that would be okay. So then that means maybe a part two might be a little ways off then. We'll see. We'll see.
Malcolm:Yeah, well, we'll think about it. If we do it next week, then we do it next week. But if not, then, then we can. Not
Tana:that we're like flying by the seat of our pants on this or anything. No, not at all. No, we don't. Yeah, these are well planned in advance. Shit, where's the schedule? Schedule? There's a schedule?
Malcolm:Not since we started.
Tana:So, yeah, so here I am like, oh, we need to have processes
Malcolm:and procedures and planning. There's also a difference between two people and then a bunch of employees that rely on
Tana:us. That's true. That is true. So, well, yeah. So, if you're job searching, man. My heart's with you.
Malcolm:Thank you.
Tana:That goes for you too, Malcolm.
Malcolm:Alright, well. Wish me luck,
Tana:everyone. Yeah, wish Malcolm luck.
Malcolm:Okay. Well. Welp. That was a sad welp. Yeah. Goodbye. Welp.
Tana:Bye.