Why do men get so upset over video games? Why do they shoot or destroy their own property when they don't like what a corporation does? But, more seriously, why are so many men depressed? Malcolm and Tana explore the topic of men, anger, and depression - and encourage men to be a little more vulnerable.
Why do men get so upset over video games? Why do they shoot or destroy their own property when they don't like what a corporation does? But, more seriously, why are so many men depressed? Malcolm and Tana explore the topic of men, anger, and depression - and encourage men to be a little more vulnerable.
Hello.
Tana:Hi, how are you doing? Yeah. Anything exciting to report on from this week? Yeah,
Malcolm:Game Awards was actually pretty fun. Oh yeah? Yeah, um, although there has been some, uh, controversy because they let, um, They let some celebrity guests talk for a while, like Anthony Mackie, or, uh, the guy that plays Shang Chi. There's, there was another guy that I had never seen, but Shelby knew. Him from some vampire thing, And he was the one that that announced the Who won Game of the year from
Tana:some vampire thing. I don't know. He was some vampire dude. No, I wanna know who it was.
Malcolm:Just look up Final guest at Game Awards.
Tana:You'll probably find him. I just put who in? Oh, Timothée Chalamet.
Malcolm:Yeah, that one. I haven't seen him in anything
Tana:before. He was in a vampire thing. I think so. Was he?
Malcolm:Maybe not.
Tana:He was in
Malcolm:Dune. Dune. I do remember she said that, so maybe that's what it was. Usually when she recognizes an actor or an actress, it's because they're from vampire, a vampire thing, so. Or, uh, Harry Potter. Or, or, uh, Marvel.
Tana:No, that's fair. That's fair. He's also in the Willy, newest Willy Wonka movie.
Malcolm:Yeah. But, there's controversy because they got a lot of time to do, to talk about whatever they wanted, but then They were, like, telling the people who won Game of the Year to
Tana:hurry it up on the teleprompter. Get off there. Yeah.
Malcolm:Which is, like, absurd because I don't care about the celebrities, I care about the development team thanking all the people that died during the development cycle and thanking their player base and everything like that. I think that's pretty cool. And then the teleprompter was like, please wrap it
Tana:up. That's, I think it's cool that you're interested in that because a lot of people aren't. They're just like, show me those celebrities. Although, I would bet gamers are more interested in the intricacies like you are.
Malcolm:Yeah, people, I think a lot of gamers are like, oh cool, they're like Keanu Reeves is in Cyberpunk 2077. That's cool. Oh yeah. But, I think for the most part People who have been playing video games, at least for a while, are so used to non actors either getting their start or, like, maybe this is their third game. Like, it's almost always been non popular actors that are in video games, so I don't think a lot of gamers really care, for the most part. Hmm. Interesting. Um, I think one of the oldest big time celebrities, uh, is, um, oh gosh,
Tana:Nathan Fillion. I was gonna say that! I was gonna say Nathan Fillion.
Malcolm:He's done a lot of video game stuff. He's done a lot of
Tana:stuff in general. Yeah,
Malcolm:he has. Um. But, yeah, he's near and dear to video gamers
Tana:hearts. Well, that's good. He's near and dear to my heart, too. Hope
Malcolm:not. You're married to dad!
Tana:He played a character that shared your name. Malcolm. Yeah. Yeah. In case you didn't know what your name was. I just wanted to clarify.
Malcolm:I didn't. Thank you. I've been wondering these past 20
Tana:years. So are you going to do an episode on the Game Awards on your other podcast? Uh,
Malcolm:maybe not for this year, but maybe in the future. I got other episodes planned already, so I don't want to interrupt
Tana:those. Well, it's interesting that you mentioned the Game Awards. I forgot that was this past week. But I was I was thinking because this this past week I was thinking about gamers Kind of I mean, that's kind of where it started I've just been thinking about the general idea of like Why are men so angry? I realize that's a very generalized statement.
Malcolm:Yeah, that felt very separate from the video game thing for a moment. That was
Tana:confusing. Well, no, because I feel like there's There's fandoms of different things that are very different from each other, right? Like, we talked before about, I think we talked about the, is it LeakyCon? The Harry Potter con and about how like my friend went to that. She was like, this was the nicest fandom I've ever seen. And then like, uh, our cousin goes to the Taylor Swift concerts and you know, they're like, Everybody's like they're the nicest people and we all exchange bracelets and make them for each other and it's like the nicest most wholesome thing and then it just feels like there's a bunch of video game fandoms where people are just like angry about everything.
Malcolm:Honestly it's the anonymity. I've already like done all sorts of research and my own, I was gonna say my own research but I realize this sounds redundant but that means like my own investigating.
Tana:Okay, so I really actually want, I really want to hear about this because I've been, I've, I actually have a two part question today, but I want to start with the anger because I don't see that in you. I mean, you get upset about some things, but like my recollection of you starting out in gaming, I was so afraid that there were just going to be all these people online that were going to turn you into a jerk.
Malcolm:Obviously, there are the people's fault, but there's also the game developers faults. Um, whoever it is that's in charge of, of game chat and stuff, they, a lot of games, most games, like 95 percent of games, don't do a good job of monitoring their chat, which then means that all of these people who have an identity to them, all you know them as is Gamer 533. Yeah. And so then they're able to say, do whatever they want, let out all of their anger, um, because, I mean Anything like video games is a way to get, like, get emotion out. Sadly, a way that a lot of people get their emotion out is on other people. But one of my favorite video games, Warframe, has probably the best video game community I have ever seen in my life. But it is highly monitored. Like, it is, you have people who have been playing the game, this game's been out, Uh, it started in beta in 2013. So it's, the 10 year anniversary was just a couple months ago. And you have people that are still playing from then and are basically, um, have their own, I was going to say stake in the company, that's not what I mean though, but, they, like, they personally know the developers and everything like that, and they are moderators for the game. Because they've been on it for so long, and developers trust them, and so, like, I, I know one of these people. I don't know them by their actual name, but, uh, but he, whatever region that I'm in, he monitors that region, and he, like, Cracks down on anyone. He bans people outright for saying bad stuff and they have really good bots in the chat that will audit, like, if they see a word or the, here's the other thing, so many games will ban words, but they'll ban the bad words. They won't ban variations of the word. Warframe bans variations of the word. So if someone says FACK Like F A C K. Well, you're not gonna get banned for that because no one cares if you swear in chat. But if someone were to do a variation of like the n word or the f a word Then all of a sudden they're going Like it still registers that that's the bad word and they're gonna kick them out. Interesting. So Some games do a comms band where you're not allowed to talk at all Some games just outright ban you for a period of time, and if you keep doing it, the time limit of being banned gets longer and longer and longer until you're just permanently banned from the game. Yeah,
Tana:that seems like a good
Malcolm:policy. The problem with that is that they're report based a lot of the times. Oh,
Tana:so somebody could just report you to be a jerk.
Malcolm:Yeah, so there have been plenty of times where Salem and I are very good at video games. Mm hmm. So there are plenty of times that we, like, mess some people up in a game, but they are playing as, like, a five stack or something like that, which means that there's five of them. That all know each other. That all know each other, which means that all of them can just be like, hey, let's all Because this person's like doing really good against us. We're annoyed at them Let's all ban them and since you get five ban reports at the same time So Sam and I have both been banned multiple
Tana:times. You would think that they would have a mechanism for preventing that from happening. Yeah,
Malcolm:Warframe does. Oh, Warframe does. Yeah, that's why Warframe's like the king. I love Warframe so much. Gotcha.
Tana:But, um, first of all, did you ever watch Mythic Quest? Uh, briefly, yeah, I don't Do you remember the community manager? Yes. She's like the perkiest thing, but then as soon as somebody was like, I want to be a community manager, she was like, no! No, do not pursue this as a career! I was like, yeah, anyway, um, that, that, I think Mythic Quest is a very funny look at behind the scenes. TTP? Yeah, the time
Malcolm:Time to penis?
Tana:What's the TTP gonna be on that? That's another, that's a whole other question I have about men, honestly, is like the obsession with drawing penises on everything. Like I don't get it because I've, like, I don't know a bunch of women who like to draw like boobs and vaginas on things, like hearts and unicorns and rainbows, you know, but like, I don't get it anyway, um, but everything you're saying, like, that's. Awesome to hear about Warframe. I'm glad that Warframe does that, but that's like addressing the issue. It is not getting at the root cause of the issue, which is that these people are angry and they're acting out. The,
Malcolm:the main, I still think the main issue is anonymity. Um, cause a lot of people, like I said, we'll use it as an escape and get their feelings out on the game. Uh, Lord knows I used to, but I would never yell at people, specifically.
Tana:Well, you also kicked people out of your chats who were saying like sexist things and like being jerks,
Malcolm:you know? Um, yeah, there's, for some reason, a lot of people get, like, have a dark side on the internet because as soon as they're anonymous, they can say all these things, so they do. I don't really understand that. I can definitely understand getting your anger out through a game, because it's very easy just to play and use it as an excuse to be angry, because, I mean, it's better to It's not good to bottle up your feelings, but it's better to bottle them up when you're Midday at work. Like to not take them out on your
Tana:co workers or your
Malcolm:family or And then go home and yell at every single person that kills you in a video game. Um, but I don't understand I don't understand the, the sexist or the racist things that are, that are said. I don't know if it's just because they usually can't say it, so then it just feels powerful to them to be able to say it. Um, kind of like the whole bully thing is usually because they're being bullied at home. Right, right. I think some of it comes from them wanting to feel unstoppable, because what are they going to
Tana:do? Well, I mean, also there, some people are just jerks. Well, there's that too. Some people are just racist. Some people are just misogynist. They're whatever. Um, which I also don't understand. Like, that's a, that's a whole psychological thing for me that I just, I don't get. I don't, I really, really don't understand how you can look at someone and be like, they are different from me in this way, and therefore I hate them. Now, interestingly, I'm currently reading a book called The Little Liar by Mitch Albom, and it's a World War II novel. And, um, so there's a lot of, you know, talk about Nazis, obviously. And, uh, There, he tells the story from like a few different perspectives. And one of them is a Nazi officer. And he was like, you know, the Nazi officers, like these people are scum of the earth. And, you know, they're, and it, and it's just, I'm like, but why? Like, why? Why do you think that? Why is your race so superior and, um, and it wasn't just, you know, Jewish people. It was, you know, gypsies or, I mean, that's what they called them. Anyone that wasn't the superior race. We don't call them gypsies, but like, yeah. Um, the, um, LGBTQ community, I'm sure they hated black people too. Like, I mean, they just Anyone that wasn't an Aryan. Right. Anyone that wasn't, yeah, like That didn't look like you actually, you know. Um, and, and I just, I, I can not wrap my brain around it. And so I think maybe that might be part of the thing that keeps me from understanding fully, like the level of anger that is out there. And I'm not saying like women don't get angry, but like, there are just so many men that just like you tip them off like fast. One thing I'm
Malcolm:curious about, cause there is, There's a lot of anonymous people that, uh, are women that will be angry, but I think once it enters voice chat,
Tana:that goes away
Malcolm:because of the level of men player base that there is to women player base in video games, and so if the one woman out of the rest of the lobby of men. speaks, then all of a sudden, all of the men that are in the voice chat are going to, yeah, they're going to
Tana:start talking to her. So, yeah, yeah. I remember one, there was a, a study I saw that was like, um, it had a, uh, a woman gamer. So her, her, Her quality level of her play stayed consistent, but the first time she was in an anonymous chat, and I think used like a vocal modulator to make her sound like a man, and like, she was playing in there all like, Oh, good shot, good this, good that. Good, that, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, you know? And then she like went out and then like came back in as a woman, as herself. And they like, she got like friendly fire, you know, like they're like, even though she's on this team, they just like killed her. And then they're like, and then some of them were just like outright insulting her and yelling at her. And it's just like, it's, it makes no sense to
Malcolm:me. That is, that's one problem with memes as well. Uh, especially in the video game community. Memes rule the video game community. Absolutely. And the gamer girl meme is huge. What's a gamer girl
Tana:meme?
Malcolm:It's just the, oh my god, there's a girl in the lobby. Oh. Oh. The main meme isn't to be insulting or anything, it's actually like Guys pretending that they can't talk to women and so then they just like start hyperventilating and stuff like that in the chat And so some of them are really funny and especially if like the women play along or something like that. It can be really funny But then you get the people who take it too far, which is a lot of people, right? and Yeah, it's also funny to me because I feel like there's so many guys that are like that will try to get them to like join their party and stuff like that and continue to to fight with them, but as like a kind of creepy like not date thing, but basically yeah, and then the times that Sam and I are just playing an open voice chat, and we don't react to them being a woman because they're just another person playing a video game. Then they'll join our group and play with us consistently and talk with us a bunch.
Tana:Probably because you're like a welcome refuge from all the jerks out
Malcolm:there. I know, it's crazy. It's almost like being nice to people actually makes them want to join your party. Oh my gosh! Instead of acting like a
Tana:Bloodhounds are nice. Don't insult bloodhounds. Don't insult dogs on this, on this podcast. But I mean, again, it's all different. Like these are all like different mechanisms of displaying anger. I just, I don't, I don't understand why so many men are so angry. Um, and it's not just gamers. I mean, that was just kind of a convenient entry, entryway. I think it's,
Malcolm:I think it's societal. It is, but why? I mean, women are taught a lot more to internalize all of their feelings. Well, that's true. Including anger. Men are Tell people how they feel
Tana:if they're angry. That is the only acceptable emotion from a man. Either nothingness or anger. Because
Malcolm:then you're not masculine. If you're
Tana:not angry. Right. And, and also we say, which is weird, women are so emotional, but like men are known for flying off the handle all the time. But like somehow anger isn't an emotion. It's like, it's something else. For some reason,
Malcolm:this is another English word. Um, what's the word? Like not discrepancy, but like, there are two parts of the word. A lot of people, almost everyone, see, hear emotional and think crying. Emotional actually just means feeling a lot of emotion, multiple emotions, anything like that. Like I, I said how I was really excited for a couple new members in our D& D group because I know they're going to be very emotional people. They are not the crying type whatsoever. I know there are going to be emotional people because I know when something cool happens, they're going to be like, Oh my God, that's awesome! Like, I, and I,
Tana:That's, that's another acceptable emotion from, from men is cheering. Yeah. Especially in a game situation. Well, these are two
Malcolm:women actually. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, that's always acceptable from women. I mean, like, you know, they don't care. And like, and you know, as a DM, that's always fun is when people are like, Oh my gosh, that's so cool. Because then you feel validated as a DM. Yeah.
Tana:Do you get emotional? Yeah, I do. And you're like, oh, they really like me.
Malcolm:Uh, but yeah, for some reason people identify that as emotional. I think it's largely because of the whole thing with women are emotional, whereas men are probably more emotional most of the time.
Tana:May I present to you all the wars in history. Yes, those were just rational decisions. They were just
Malcolm:pure logic. Whose emotional outrage was the one that started the war? Not the women's. Right,
Tana:right. It's, it's, it's, it's really honestly absurd. Has there ever been a war started by a woman? I'm sure something. Well, uh, Depends on what you mean by started by, because, um, There's started fours. You know, the face that launched a thousand ships.
Malcolm:There's a lot of started fours as well, but Yeah, yeah. Not started by women. Right.
Tana:Um. There was probably something.
Malcolm:Except for, unless you're talking about pirates. Then, there was a lot of women pirates that were. Which, I mean, fair enough. Fuck society. Be a pirate. We should get that on our shirt. Fuck society, be a pirate.
Tana:Alright.
Malcolm:Now I know what I'm going to be doing for my pirate campaign. I'm going to be making everyone Those shirts. Yes,
Tana:we definitely should do that. I, I honestly, um I think, I think it feels, I, I, I should, you know, I haven't done any like actual research on this, but it feels like men are more angry. And again, this could be like when people are like, this never happened in my day, and I'm like, well, the internet wasn't available then. So it probably was happening, you just didn't know about it because And in most,
Malcolm:men getting angry was most certainly back in your day. Oh, yeah. Just, just saying.
Tana:Yeah, yeah, I mean, um
Malcolm:Like, excuse me, Hitler.
Tana:Right, yeah. Yeah, that was pure logic, right? That,
Malcolm:that war? Hitler, Napoleon, uh, I mean, hell, even George Washington. Um, yeah. Basically every single president. Right. Yeah. Or king. Um. Or tyrant.
Tana:Yeah. I think men are too emotional to be in leadership roles. I agree. But, but, um, it seems like now, I actually kind of wonder if any of this excessive anger is coming from societal changes that are making it so that men, particularly white men, particularly white straight Christian men, are no longer the like the, the most advantaged. I don't, I know. I shouldn't say that there's still the most advantaged, but like there's, there's more and more people are getting rights and getting like recognition and getting, um, treatment. And to, I think to a lot of men that feels like it's taking something away from them, which in a way it is because if you no longer give, if, if this company is hiring and they've engaged in a diversity process to have equitable hiring, and they're no longer giving an An outright advantage to the white men applying, in a way the white men have lost out on something. Most of the
Malcolm:time they still are, they just say they aren't. Yeah, I'd be
Tana:curious about that.
Malcolm:Just because subconscious bias is still a thing. Yeah, yeah, it totally is. So even if no one is actively doing it, it sometimes still happens
Tana:a lot. 100%, I still think that's, I mean, because you can't control for that. You know, you can't.
Malcolm:I was, I was just thinking of like, um, what are those dolls called? Uh, the resting Russian nesting doll, Russian nesting doll, not resting dolls. Um, but it, the big one starts out as men and then it's white men and then it's white Christian straight men. Yeah.
Tana:Um,
Malcolm:I think a lot of the, the anger probably also comes from them being told they can't be Emotional in terms of sadness because they they're cut off from their base basically told to be cut off from multiple Different big emotions that you're supposed to feel just as a human, right? And so then
Tana:Because they're not supposed to display those because it's not manly. Yeah. And
Malcolm:that gets And so then all of those just get redirected
Tana:back into anger. Back into anger. And it's so funny that you said that because that was one of the points I was going to make. And it brings me to my second question, which is why are so many men depressed? Because there was a study that Because they can't
Malcolm:be sad, so they are sad.
Tana:That, what? Makes sense. Society says no to them being sad. Right, so they're sad, but they're not expressing that sadness.
Malcolm:So they took it a step further and decided to be depressed instead. Well, I'll show you! If you
Tana:say I can't be sad, well, I'll be depressed! Yeah, fuck society, let's
Malcolm:be pirates. Speed Depressed Pirates? You need
Tana:to make bumper stickers too. Um, yeah, I actually think that's part of it. Um, there was a recent study that came out that said that like, um, men are more depressed than they've ever been. And part of me is very curious about that. Like, I think I'm not saying I don't think it's possible, but I also wonder if they're just more willing to even admit it on a survey than they would have been in the past.
Malcolm:So, well, there's that. Because, um, I've seen a lot of stuff about that where there is a notable discrepancy in how many people are being diagnosed with stuff versus how many people are actually coming out with the fact that, like, they have that. And also how many people have been misdiagnosed with stuff, but that number is way smaller. Right,
Tana:how many people seek treatment, how many people are more willing to admit the truth about themselves. But,
Malcolm:I think in general, people have just been on a decline. Our generation, every generation has just been proving to be more and more and more and more depressed. And so I think part of that is also just why men are more depressed, because I think everyone is
Tana:just more depressed. Maybe it's because capitalism just gets worse and worse and worse every year.
Malcolm:It does. It'll crash eventually. Yeah. And then we'll restart the cycle. Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that. But with the same politicians.
Tana:Fuck. No, most of them will be dead by then, unless it crashes next year. The ones who wreaked all the havoc and, you know, I hope if we, you know, have to start over and rebuild, we put term limits on Congress because It's absurd. It is super absurd.
Malcolm:There also should 100 percent be an age limit on
Tana:There should be, and there should be, I think, a limit tying CEO pay to the lowest paid worker. Like, CEO pay can't be more than X times the lowest paid worker of their company. Yeah. It's absurd. I don't understand. I don't see how any of these CEOs are worth that much more than the other people in their company. I just don't understand
Malcolm:why you still care enough to earn that much money. Cause at that point, You can't do anything with it. Exactly. At that point, it really doesn't matter. So why not just put it back into your company? Not put it back into your company, but. Give it to the people that are in your
Tana:company working on it. Did you hear, like, um, so Mackenzie Scott, I think was her last name, she was married to Jeff Bezos. And she got, like, billions in the divorce, and she committed to, like, giving it all away. And she gave, she gave away billions, and then the next year she had just as much money as she did. Just look at
Malcolm:Keanu Reeves. Oh my, that man gives away everything,
Tana:and he's still rich.
Malcolm:Like he's, um, like he's consistently given away to charities, they're, like, now, like this year alone people have found out about multiple charities that Keanu Reeves gave money to like a decade ago. How do I get on that list? So, so it wasn't even, like. He's doing it for the publicity. Yeah, no, he doesn't do anything for the publicity. And there's so many paparazzi where, like, they've constantly spotted him just casually talking to homeless people. Oh, yeah. Or there's even been paparazzi where it's, like, they know it's not a stunt because the homeless person, like, called him out by his name and then the counter returned with his name as well. And it's just like He's so absurdly nice. I
Tana:know, I know. He would
Malcolm:consistently give up some of the money that he would make for making a movie and let everyone else like the stuntmen and basically all the people that don't get paid for it as much as they should get paid on a set. Are getting paid more because he sacrifices a huge portion of his check for movies. Yeah,
Tana:and I don't think anybody would be like, oh, Keanu's such a girl. You know what I mean? Like, nobody would be questioning. Nobody says that to John Wick. Or about The Rock. Like, Dwayne, Dwayne. He posts so many videos of like his girls putting makeup on him and stuff like that. And I'm like, okay, The Rock is doing
Malcolm:that. Still one of my favorite videos that he's posted is His kid not believing that he's Maui. Oh, right. Yeah. That's
Tana:so funny. That's so funny. Um, yeah. Yeah. So,
Malcolm:and now he's gonna be playing Maui live action. What?
Tana:Yeah. Oh, interesting. So yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting because I do think the anger and the depression are, are linked, I think, because not only because. You know, it does feel like there's, in certain circles, there's still this idea that in order to be a manly man, you have to be angry, like, all the time. I wonder how many
Malcolm:men don't even realize it. I don't know. I, I feel like there's so many men that it's been worked into so hard. They can't even comprehend the fact it's because they're depressed that they're so angry. Oh, I'm
Tana:sure. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm positive, especially older generations, especially older generations, but also especially like all these like political pundits that like these guys who have like the shows where they yell at the screen or the microphone or whatever they're, you know. Um, it's like what they do the whole time is they just yell and, and it's somehow they're the like manly man, um, because they're getting upset about, you know, the Barbie movie or whatever. Um, it's just, it really. It really is absurd. And other people have pointed this out that like, you know, they're claiming to be, you know, all upset about masculinity, but they are like the most sensitive little snowflakes because, you know, they get upset about everything.
Malcolm:I remember someone's family member, obviously I'm not going to name names, was talking about how bad the Barbie movie was. This was definitely a toxic man. And, um, cause he was also talking about how he's a teacher and all the things that. His kids do. And then the way he retaliates against the kid. And I was like, who's really the kid here? Anyway, beside the point, he said something about, like, Elon Musk posting a tweet about how many times they say, um, the word, oh gosh, I can't remember what word. Patriarchy. Oh, in the Barbie movie? Yeah, he's like, this would make a great drinking movie or something for if you take a shot every time they say patriarchy and it's like, get this, that's what the movie's about. Yeah. Whoa. Like there's, there's things that are overdone on purpose.
Tana:Right. Right.
Malcolm:Yeah. They're meant to say patriarchy that many times on purpose. Right. Yeah. But. Some men just need to be angry about it because it's pointing out the flaws in other men that aren't even them. Why are you offended for other
Tana:men? Why are they offended about so many things?
Malcolm:I just don't understand. Why? One thing I definitely don't understand about humans and especially men is why are you defending other people's actions? They weren't your actions. So why are you like, yeah, why are you like, oh you're attacking him just cuz he's man. Why do you give a shit about him? He's just another guy Die by cancel culture. I don't
Tana:care. Oh Don't say cancel culture. Uh, well
Malcolm:cancel culture is real And yeah, sometimes it's bad, but it doesn't mean it's always bad. That's how anything works. Yeah,
Tana:honestly, it really is. I mean, people decide where they want to spend their money. Now, the thing I find funny, this is a side note, is that the people who are normally the most upset about cancel culture, like, through a frickin fit, when Bud Light sent a can of beer, to Dylan Mulvaney, who is a trans, um, woman. And they like. They tanked Bud Light's stock and like, did like, I got so upset and there was like, what was like, like Kid Rock, like took some Bud Light out and just shot at it. And like, you know, with, with like an AR 15 or something, I don't know. And just, it's just ridiculous the things people, it was like the, the same thing when. That just
Malcolm:makes me laugh. It doesn't. Like, it doesn't do anything for me, it just makes me laugh. Well,
Tana:there was like, way back when, I think Keurig cancelled their Fox News commercials or something for some, like, in reaction to something that one of their people said. Yeah. And so there were all these people posting videos of destroying their Keurig machines, and I was like Jokes on you, man. You just destroyed your own property, like
Malcolm:and you know, or like the people that will buy something to then like to then destroy to them move it. Yeah. It's, you do realize that you're not doing anything other than paying for their products. It's
Tana:it'ss so
Malcolm:absurd. You're still helping them move product. You do realize
Tana:that, right? Yeah. It's, it's honestly, it's, it's super absurd and a lot of it is is is play acting, you know? It's like, I don't know that. Any of these people actually believe the BS they spew. They just know it'll get them views and, and all this stuff. That's another horrible thing. And that's terrible. I think that's
Malcolm:almost worse. You can get just as many views by opposing it. So why not just oppose it?
Tana:Because there's way more room on the, on the conservative end of things, on the far right end of things to make money. Fair enough.
Malcolm:There is. But the, the level Man, the easiest way to get view, like I've learned this for my podcast episodes because I'm very, podcast is a video game podcast and I'm very critical about video games because they are my life and blood. So, I found out that the ones that always had the most views is when I say why this game
Tana:sucks. Uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, yeah, because either people wanted to be like, defend it, or be like, yeah, it does suck.
Malcolm:Yeah, exactly. You know, yeah. Like, people want to know if they have the same reasons that I do, or people want to be like, you're wrong! Right, yeah. And, the best part is that all those people are giving me views. Not even listening to it and giving me comments which gets me more views because they're commenting on it like you're wrong at minute zero Right. Yeah, I'm like, did you yeah. Yeah. Thank
Tana:you. for helping my I
Malcolm:was like do you not even consider my argument at all because I can see, I can see when you, you commented.
Tana:I don't think some people know that, you know. Some people probably just don't care. But, yeah, so, so anyway, there's, there's a lot of anger. There's people who profit off of anger. There's people who profit off of getting other people angry cause they know, cause I honestly fear is a lot of the root of anger. I just And they profit off of people being afraid. I
Malcolm:couldn't do that. For something so big as our society.
Tana:Oh, oh, trust me, yeah. Like, that's such
Malcolm:a
Tana:horrific thing to do. Screw democracy falling apart, I'm gonna bank some cash.
Malcolm:That's like borderline, um, actually, it's borderline not constitutional. And, it's just very, very
Tana:messed up in general. I don't know what's in the constitution prevents it, but it's just unethical. And, and you're being a terrible person.
Malcolm:I mean, but like, why would you bring down so many other people and
Tana:Cause they don't care. They don't, they don't care. They want to make money. And that's it. I mean, well, that's the thing I don't understand
Malcolm:is like, you can almost always make more money Or not more money, but like the same amount of money or only slightly less money by just being on the opposing side as well. Well,
Tana:I should, I should qualify that. There are some people who just don't care. They're agents of chaos. And as long as that chaos gives them money, they're fine. Then there's people who I would say, um, Are malicious? Malicious. Yeah. That, you know, like Donald Trump has basically said like, Oh, I'm going to be like a full out dictator this time if I get elected. Like,
Malcolm:I mean, he said he would walk out into a street and shoot. Somebody Well, and it'd be fine.
Tana:Well, but he said he, that was more of like a comment of like, oh, my people will never leave me. But like he said, he will replace everybody in government with sy of fans and that he, he just wants a bunch of Yes, yes men around him and that he'll like impose martial law and he'll do all this stuff and people are still like, yes, let's, he wants to make the government a circle jerk. Right. Let's that, yes. But not only that, but like, I think. I think like Hitler esque, uh, maybe not to that extreme of, you know, um, but like the beginnings of Hitler where, you know, um, maybe take claiming people's businesses, maybe running people. I
Malcolm:mean, directly sponsored, um, Nazis. So neo Nazis.
Tana:Yeah. I mean, yeah. So, but anyway, that's all like, that's politics and people doing stuff and, um, The, the one thing I don't, so, all right, so all of that frustrates me, especially as a woman, because we as women are so emotional, God, we are so emotional and, and we are, we are taught to fear men's anger. And so men, this is one of the things that really makes me angry, is if I'm having an argument with a man and then he just raises his voice and is like, You know what? You just need to blah blah blah blah blah blah. That immediately makes me go, like, back off. Because I'm like, I don't know at what point this leads to physical violence.
Malcolm:I just have anxiety, so it does the same thing to me. Right.
Tana:So like it's, and that's so frustrating because I think, I don't think, I don't think all men do it intentionally, but I think some men do it intentionally to be like, I'm going to
Malcolm:win. Here's there's, I think there's a good way to beat that. Maybe not in all cases, but I think in some cases you can honestly just report someone just because if you shy away and just walk away, they might feel validated and that might suck to make them feel validated. But then you just, like, if it was a work thing, then you tell it to HR, or if you
Tana:Yeah, yeah, I mean, it depends on the situation.
Malcolm:Yeah, there are definitely times where you can't combat it at all, because sometimes it's a customer and you're the Although I think
Tana:more and more businesses are like, screw that. Our customers can't be these jerks. Like, which is nicer to see now. Cause I swear when I was growing up and like my first jobs, it was like, you had to just let the customers say whatever they wanted and treat you however they wanted.
Malcolm:That's why I would definitely work at David's coffee shop if it, if it was closer. Yeah, because he doesn't put up with that. Yeah, he's like, tell people off that are being mean to you. And I'm like, hell yeah!
Tana:Yeah, yeah, that's not, yeah.
Malcolm:The only thing that sucks is that since I'm a white guy, no one's ever mean to me, so I can never tell anyone off.
Tana:I can start being mean to you if you want. No. So, anyway, so, obviously, you know, I get frustrated with, with the anger, I get frustrated with the, how it, All of these things that it leads to. But I do think there is a problem like that. Here's the balance. I don't know how to, how to create, um, is men are in trouble. Like there are some men out there who are just
Malcolm:jerks. Yeah, report to the principal's
Tana:office. But, but I mean, I mean, seriously, like, like a lot of men. Are depressed and there's a lot of men who don't know how to handle how things are changing. They want to. I think there are some who are just like, This stupid women's lip stuff has gone on long enough. But then I think there are other men who are like, Okay, I'm, I'm all about this and I want equality, but also I'm struggling with how this is affecting me. Like, you know what I mean? Like, and, and, and I don't think we allow any space for that conversation. Um, because it feels like you have to be on like one side, one end of the, or the other, like, you know what I mean? Like
Malcolm:that's definitely how I feel. Um, in terms of being on one end or the other, not, I was going to say not the emotional broken man, but I am that too. So, uh, but, um, I hate force being forced to play sides. Right. Um, I hate being told that I have to vote. I hate being told that I have to go to a rally because if not, I'm not a, I'm not a supporter. And I'm like, I may not be a supporter, but it doesn't mean I'm, I'm a hater either. Like I don't do anything against you. And I realized that I, you know, as a white man, I have the privilege of doing stuff without being hated on, most of the time at least. There are just dicks out there. But, um Um, I don't like having to be forced into any of the situations
Tana:either. I think that's a very, it's a different conversation from, um, and, and it's, and, and I, I have some very complicated emotions around that because there is the idea that if you have some privilege and you can help people who are less fortunate than you, um, that you have a moral responsibility to use that
Malcolm:privilege. But that's, in my opinion, it's also saying like Oh, you got an extra 20 bucks from work this week, so you should put it
Tana:towards charity. I mean, there are people who would say that, too. But that's
Malcolm:my point. It's like, I don't agree with that. And I, it's the same idea, in my opinion. But yeah, it's, it's
Tana:right there. That would be a much longer conversation.
Malcolm:Yes, and we're almost out of time.
Tana:Yeah, but I do think that there is, I feel like there's really not a space. And of course it's, I'm saying this as a woman, so I mean, what do I know? But what do I, but in all seriousness, like, I don't know how men are feeling, but it seems to me like there's no space for for the men who do care and are trying to have any other emotion other than being like, yep, you're 100 percent right. And I'm just going to sit here in a corner, you know, like there's no middle ground between the angry guy who hates all women and A man just being like, whatever you say goes, you know, and I just don't know how we have make that space because it, I can imagine the emotions are complicated. Like if you have seriously been, you know, this, it's not the same for you because of your age and what you're growing up in, but like if you're a Gen X or a boomer and you're a white guy. You've probably had a lot of privilege throughout your life that you didn't realize was there. But then as soon as it started to kind of get eroded, you're like, wait a second. You know? Um, so yeah, it's, it's interesting. Cause I think I, I think there are people who would. Be angry with me for even just saying what I just said.
Malcolm:I mean, that goes for basically anything. I mean,
Tana:true. But like, yeah, just be like, so what? Men need to deal with it. We dealt with it for this many years and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Stop that mindset. Just shut up.
Malcolm:Like seriously, I, I hate the. The whole, well I didn't do that. I don't give a shit whether you did it or not. Yeah. Like, if I want to be more emotionally mature than you, just allow me to do that,
Tana:please. Oh yeah, it's kind of like, um, professors who are like, well I got hazed like this in grad school, so that's what I'm going to do to my students. That
Malcolm:can also lead to some HR level problems. Yep. Especially with hazing. Like, oh, this is what had to be done. Right, yeah. Yeah. And then that's what leads to borderline torture or rape or any of those things, especially by hazing stuff. Yeah.
Tana:Yeah. So, anyway, I largely brought it up with you because you're not One of the angry guys. Um, I know you've admitted, um, so I've on this podcast, so I know I can say it, you know, you've struggled with depression. Um, uh, so you're not immune on that end, but, um, yeah. So anyway, I think it's a bigger discussion at some point. to have with smarter people than me. Like somebody who knows about, you know, the psychology and, and whatnot. It's kind of like, there's, um, there's like these groups that take, uh, like. Uh, people who were in like a white supremacist group and then they're like, this isn't right for me. I don't actually agree with all this. And then they kind of like, they need like a recovery space. Like there's like a whole organization that helps people, uh, helps men get out of those spaces and realize like how harmful that was and to like rebuild. Um, and I just don't know that we have a lot of spaces for that and we're, we're, we're getting to the end here, but I just like one last thing I kind of wanted to throw out in terms of both the depression and the anger is I would say that in my observations, very generally speaking, women are more supportive of each other than men are. Um, I read this story from a, a woman who transitioned to being a man, and he said, I wasn't expecting it to be this cold. And it was just like, being a woman, I had all these friends and we all supported each other and like, men are just not like that. Um, not in the same way of supporting emotionally and, you know.
Malcolm:Yeah. Yeah, it's cause it's, it's uh. Weird, like, self brutalization thing of, you know, since you're not allowed to be emotional, it usually means you can't be close to someone either. Yeah. Or at least another guy, because then, you know, people will then use gay as an insult towards you. Right, yeah,
Tana:yeah. Um. Yeah. But I'm hoping that's going away, cause, just like your generation is less like, you know.
Malcolm:I do know for women, sometimes it can be the opposite, where women can do uncomfortable things to other women, but. Oh, be catty
Tana:and stuff?
Malcolm:Or like, touching each other. Like, just being, supposedly being friendly.
Tana:What? Wait, what? What are you saying?
Malcolm:About women touching other women, like they're. Do you mean inappropriately? Yeah, like not not like trying to do anything But just like they're talking about bras or something. And so then they're just like okay touching. This helps Yeah, no, I'm not touching I'm not talking
Tana:about like
Malcolm:like women molesting each other
Tana:or something.
Malcolm:Okay. Although I'm guessing some women probably feel that way Oh sure.
Tana:Sure, but you're talking about like how like Yeah, there's, there's some funny scenes in movies that are actually kind of accurate of like, you know, Do my boobs feel less perky? And they're like, I don't
Malcolm:know. Yeah, I know, I know there are some women that are really uncomfortable with that. But then other women don't realize that and will do that sort of thing. Yeah, yeah. But,
Tana:yeah. Yeah, so, anyway. So, you know, if, if, if you're a guy, maybe Reach out to other guys and try to up the vulnerability, increase vulnerability.
Malcolm:That's why like Even though sometimes my guy friends won't say anything to me. I still just say stuff to them. Good,
Tana:good for you. I mean that opens the door.
Malcolm:I mean that opens the door and honestly, even though you're not getting stuff receiving it's still fun. Feels good either way. Oh, that's nice. Because I mean if they're not turning you down and they're not just like leaving Like ghosting you or something then hey, that means that they probably feel reciprocally. They're just not
Tana:Saying it back. Yeah, I think there's, I imagine there's some men who are uncomfortable with it, but I also think there was a time when, like you were saying, using gay as a slur, like, you know, if you would've like opened up to somebody, they'd be like, oh man, stop being so gay. Like, that would've been a, a thing that, you know, and that demonstrates to men, like, you can't be vulnerable. Yeah.
Malcolm:Yeah, so. Can't even be close to a guy.
Tana:Right. Yeah, cause it'll get misinterpreted. Yep. Yeah. Ah, well. Right. Yep. Sorry, man. That's, uh, sucks to be you. I don't have it
Malcolm:as bad as other people do, so that's fine.
Tana:Alright, well, I think, uh, yeah, maybe we'll talk more about this at some other time. Maybe we can try to find somebody who's an expert. An expert? An expert. Well, maybe we'll solve the lonely, man's lonely problem. Anyway, sorry, I interrupted your Midwestern goodbye. Yeah, gosh.
Malcolm:Geez. Sorry. I mean, how Midwestern of you? I
Tana:mean, it's really not a Midwestern goodbye. It's like the opposite. Like, we're like, well, gotta go. And then we stop recording and like, Instead of like going to the door and like talking more and then going to the car and talking more and yes anyway Yeah, so well
Malcolm:and then pulling up next to the other person's car rolling down your window. Yeah Well, well gotta go