In this episode, Tana and Malcolm talk about the complicated relationship between critics and superhero movies, the new Madame Web movie, and how hidden bias can change your perception of media.
Hello. I, I am very tired. You're very tired. So I apologize for my, my lack of enthusiasm today. Hopefully I will. I slept well,
Malcolm:but I slept wrong so my neck hurts.
Tana:Oh yeah. Yeah. I am, I am extremely sleep deprived. I have not had a good night's sleep all week. And then last night I slept like six hours. Which is not good for me. I need at least seven and a half or
Malcolm:I'm just say six hours doesn't sound that bad to me. No,
Tana:I am absolutely useless unless, well, seven I guess is sort of the minimum. If I get below seven then I'm just, I'm a brain foggy mess the whole day. So, and some days are worse than others and it's built, it's built up now. So, I'm like Oh my God. Anyway, so planning on napping after we record this, which is unusual for me cause I hate naps, but I, right now it feels like a necessary
Malcolm:evil. Well, you aren't supposed to nap more than like 20 minutes, so
Tana:just don't do that. That's. I mean,
Malcolm:power naps are good, but then the health thing declines after 20 minutes if you, if you sleep more than 20 minutes.
Tana:The health thing declines after 20 minutes?
Malcolm:Yeah, like if you take a power nap for like 20 minutes, then it like significantly improves your health. But then after about 20 minutes, you're actually making it worse for yourself.
Tana:I don't think that's true. Because, you know, so I have this chronic illness and, um. Sometimes I end up being very sleep deprived and so I'll be kind of forced into taking a nap. I've always avoided naps. You can ask my mother. She even avoided them when I was little. Um, and, uh, But like, when I get this behind on sleep, if I take a nap, I often ends up being like two hours and then I feel so much better after it. So I reject your premise. Well, nevermind then I guess. We'll have to look up the stats later and, and, uh, have
Malcolm:an argument. Have you seen Madam Web yet?
Tana:No.
Malcolm:Came out. On Valentine's Day. So
Tana:now I've been really busy and tired and tired I'm either busy or just being exhausted. So I have not gotten out to the theater. No
Malcolm:yeah, I thought it was a It was a decent movie. I've never really read any of the comics surrounding like Madame Web mmm, so It was
Tana:It's like a Spider Verse thing, right? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense that it would be.
Malcolm:Uh, from what I'm familiar with, that it wasn't exactly, like, I, once again, the studio changed, like, what that person's powers are and stuff. Which, that type of stuff I don't really understand why they do that. I don't understand the changing of powers, cause you can easily make a plot based on someone's powers in the first place. Well,
Tana:I think sometimes There are things that are not as cinematic, you know? Well, I
Malcolm:didn't really like the cinematography that much either, so. Oh,
Tana:well, I guess cinematic might be the wrong word. Um, just, there, there are certain things that don't translate well from the page to the screen. And so they make changes because they're like, that'll either be really difficult to portray or it's too inner world thinking, you know, I don't know. Yeah.
Malcolm:I don't know. I think there's definitely times where it's just kind of like, there's just no point in changing it that much, but. I don't really know the full extent of Madden Webb's powers in the comics, though, like I said, so, I don't know how much they changed it, but it does not, it is not from what I remember of what I've read, so. But,
Tana:uh. Well, I've never read any of the comics, so I don't have any preconceived notions.
Malcolm:Uh, yeah, I thought it was entertaining, um, and I thought it could set up. Like, some Spider Verse stuff.
Tana:Hmm, okay.
Malcolm:Uh, but it was definitely like an origin movie. Okay. And I think for an origin movie, it was, it was only decent. Like, it wasn't. Okay. It wasn't great.
Tana:But was it terrible? No, it wasn't terrible. Cause that's, that's what the critics are saying.
Malcolm:Well, the critics have been saying that every superhero movie that's been coming out is terrible. So.
Tana:Well, I mean, have they? Cause I feel like there's a lot of good reviews of superhero movies on Rotten Tomatoes, but maybe, um.
Malcolm:I just feel like in general there's a lot of critics and journalists in general that are getting the quote unquote superhero fatigue. Oh
Tana:yeah, you mentioned that before. You know, um. I do think the last one I remember that had like really bad reviews was Morbius?
Malcolm:Uh, but that came out a while ago. No, Thor 11 Thunder has come out since then. Thor 11 Thunder got really bad. If you're talking about Sony, then yeah, the last one that came out was Morbius. Or was it Let There Be Carnage?
Tana:Wow! Alright, so, I'm on Rotten Tomatoes. Morbius had a 15% Critic. Okay. 71 percent audience score, which is shocking to me because almost everybody I know who saw it was like it was terrible.
Malcolm:Uh, I, I, once again, I, I feel like the, except for the Venom movies, I feel like everything that Sony has been putting out has only been
Tana:decent. Oh, Venom. The Venom movies are good. Yeah.
Malcolm:Um, even the Venom movies aren't like amazing. Like I feel like they're not the quality I'd exactly expect. I think they're a little too comedic. Oh, I kinda like that.
Tana:Um. Oh! Nope. Thor 11 Thunder, according to Rotten Tomatoes, 63 percent for critics. 76%
Malcolm:for audience. Are you serious? Yeah. I did not like Thor love and thunder at all.
Tana:Uh, I was kind of met about it. Um, Ragnarok was, I think by far
Malcolm:way better. I think I just disagreed because they ruined Gore, the God butcher. Oh, he was so terrifying in the comics and he was not scary at all in the movie. Yeah, he
Tana:was a more. Thinkery, kind of, I don't know how else to say it. He still was
Malcolm:in the comics, but like, it showed him butchering several gods and stuff like in front of Thor, and Thor was powerless to stop him. They didn't do that at all.
Tana:Um, in terms of other Superhero movies? Uh, Ant Man and the Wasp, Quantumania. I remember that one being another kind of meh. Critics gave it a 46%, but audiences gave it an 82%. I
Malcolm:actually, I really liked that movie. I just didn't like Modok's quote unquote redemption arc. That was just stupid in my opinion.
Tana:Oh, gotcha.
Malcolm:Especially him yelling, I'm not a dick as he's, that was so dumb. I hated that. Everything else was great, but I hated
Tana:that. Yeah. Yeah. I don't
Malcolm:know. A lot of people just seem, I think also as time goes on, the reviews balance out. Yeah. Because I think people, I think it actually kind of starts to sit with people for a little bit and then they're like, Oh, it's actually not that bad. But, I don't know, there's so many things I see where it's just like, where it'll be critics. These are critics. Critics should not be saying stuff like this. But they're saying stuff like, superhero movies have been around for, for like 20 years and we need to just stop
Tana:now. Yeah, yeah, only 20 years. I didn't watch any while I was growing up. Yeah.
Malcolm:So clearly I'm in my 20s. It's also like superheroes have been around since 40s? The dawn of time. I mean, kind of in some instances.
Tana:Well, I mean, if you think about it, like mythology, it's not superheroes, but
Malcolm:it's like, you know, I just don't think it became like a big concrete genre until like World War II. Where a lot of comics started making superheroes. Yeah. And then the 60s is like when it started going into like production for superheroes and stuff as well. Right. And,
Tana:uh I mean, it sounds like what they're referring to is the Marvel Cinematic Universe, honestly. I Cause wasn't Iron Man like 2008. Yeah. So that would be almost 20 years ago, but it does seem like a weird thing for a critic to say because it's just simply not true. I mean, there were so many Superman movies when I was growing up, there were Batman movies.
Malcolm:It's also you're a critic, so you shouldn't be basing stuff off of how long. Right. A genre. It's a genre. Oh, I'm so tired of horror movies. Genres aren't supposed to die.
Tana:Right. I'm so tired of character studies. Like, Rosebud is one of the most critically acclaimed movies of all time, and it's basically like a long character study. So, are they just gonna like, the next time a character study movie kinda comes out? Oh my gosh.
Malcolm:Oh my
Tana:god, not
Malcolm:another one. I'm gonna start doing that anytime a new movie comes out. I'll be like, oh my gosh, another horror movie. Oh,
Tana:no, another love
Malcolm:story. Oh my gosh, look at that. They're making another video game. Oh,
Tana:biopic!
Malcolm:This feels like people are complaining. I seriously think like it's a clickbait thing. I think the superhero fatigue thing doesn't exist. Oh, so much of
Tana:this is clickbait. It's purely clickbait. You know, and honestly, It's really And yes, we will
Malcolm:probably use it as clickbait for this too, but We will, we will be Yeah, I've already been brainingstorming titles. But we'll be disagreeing with it, not Spouting it. So yeah, I, there's at least a little bit of a difference.
Tana:I actually this, and you know, Oh God, okay. This could go down a like super philosophical rabbit hole if we wanted it to, but the clickbait thing, right? Yeah. It's, it's not just. Uh, things to get you to click and read, but it's also, and this has always been a problem that people will only read the headlines. And so sometimes the headlines are misleading and, or they focus on the wrong thing or whatever. And that, it feels like that just warps our reality so much. Like everything is mediated. Because
Malcolm:some stuff is just titled well. Sure. And if stuff is titled well, then that means that you want to watch it because that title interests you. Mm hmm. So like, some people do kind of take clickbait too far because if it's Clickbait, I feel like, is something when you're exploiting something that's in the title to get people to click on it. Absolutely, absolutely. If you are actually talking about the thing that's in your title, then it's not clickbait.
Tana:No, I think there's I mean, I think there's different definitions of it. I think there's different degrees of it, but I also think some clickbaity things to do are you are talking about the topic, but you overblow it. So like, like it'll just be like, like superhero fatigue, right? Like, but there's a lot, there's a lot of clickbait when it comes to political stuff, so it'll be like, you know, Lauren Boebert demolishes her critics, you know, and it's like, no, she just gave a really weak defense, but okay, you know?
Malcolm:Yeah, I, there is, there is definitely stuff where they do talk about it, but I just meant like You know, they're, they're not respecting it. They are, they're using it to purely get clicks and that's it. Yeah.
Tana:And Oh yeah, everything, it's all about clicks, it's all about the ads, it's But there's like Oh man, they find a way to brand everything. But yeah,
Malcolm:it's, I just feel like I see this superhero fatigue thing everywhere. And I don't know how many people actually believe that. Because I, I feel like it's only for the fans. that got on board with Iron Man. I feel like anybody who is, who liked superheroes before that or likes the comics before that, and probably even a lot of people that were introduced to it originally through the MCU, which is how I was introduced to it, but that's because I was born in 2003. So I was five when Iron Man came out. So, uh, actually I think I was four cause I think it came out before my birthday, but anyway. Uh, details, I digress, uh, but some people really fall in love with the genre and some people just fell in love with the story, not the genre, and so for some people, yeah, there probably is some level of fatigue, like you are watching the 10th season of a show and you're like, okay. I'm done with this now. But like, there's people that still watch Family Guy. People that still watch The Simpsons. I was gonna say, The Simpsons. Yeah, like, there's all these things that have been going on for so long. And I bet you there are plenty of people that Oh my god, soap operas. That started watching that. Yeah, like Originally, and are like, Oh my gosh, can they just stop making seasons of this? It's like, well, they're not going to because there's still a lot of people that like it. As they
Tana:say, they would if it wasn't being watched. Clearly it's, they're not just going to throw money at it because just for the heck of
Malcolm:it. I love it. It literally shows that superhero fatigue doesn't exist. Because the superhero movies are still popular.
Tana:Well, I would say superhero fatigue as a large problem doesn't exist. I'm sure it exists for some
Malcolm:people. Like I said, I think it is purely for people that don't like the genre, but people who like the characters or the story. Because people will watch the story. For a lot of people, the story ended with Endgame. I mean, it literally had end in the name. And so then after that, people were like, Wait, there's more? But wait, there's more! And I think a lot of comic fans knew that this wasn't gonna be it, but I think a lot of people, for some reason, were just like, Alright, this is it. This is the end of it. That's possible. And so then after that, people were like, oh. Oh, they're still pushing through with this. You
Tana:know, I think though, that we need more superhero movies now more than ever. Why's that? I'm just gonna gesture to the world. Like, it's just like everything's a big mess. You know? There's, uh, you know, democracy is on the line. Um. People don't care about, there's, there's an increase in violence. There's an increase in. At least outwardly expressed racism, misogyny, homophobia, like transphobia, all the phobias, it's all the phobias and, and there were at this weird spot where now politicians are being praised for being courageous enough to say bigoted crap. You know, I mean, there's so many people who love Trump because he just tells it like it is. No, he does not tell it like it is. He says whatever he wants. That's a very different thing. And the fact that we're in a place now where Trump is the most viable GOP candidate for president has been, uh, uh, just, just had another. Conviction in court where, I don't know if you call it a conviction in this case, but he, uh, he has to pay like 405 million or something in a fraud case. And he can't run an, uh, he can't operate a business in New York for ever, I think. And, you know, and he has so many other indictments. He got convicted of rape. You know, it's just, it's just awful. And. And they're, you know, I just read the other day that one of the, uh, consequences of them striking down Roe v. Wade was, uh, it was a very high percentage. I want to say like 68 percent of doctors are, feel like they can't treat their patients well, their pregnant patients well, because If there's danger to the life of the mother, there's limited in their options because it might be, you know, because of abortion restrictions. And, you know, it's like, so women's health is in danger.
Malcolm:That's like, that's how it started in the first place. I mean, Marvel all started out with trying to Make people feel like there were superheroes that could battle the Nazis. Right, right. And then in the Cold War it was the superheroes, because like for a while the superhero comics kind of stopped and Um, people stopped being interested in them because it didn't get super popular until the 60s. Mm hmm. That was the Cold War. Right. And then all of a sudden it was fighting against the Soviet Union all the
Tana:time. Right. And by the way, one of my favorite things is that there's a very early Superman comic where he's talking about, like, appreciating each other's differences and it's very American to include everybody who's different from you. Like, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's very, these superheroes stand for good values and it's amazing to me how many, it seems like, how many people's heads that goes over, you know? Yeah, and It's just like, big fight scene, yay!
Malcolm:I think so many people also feel pressured. For it. Like I, I do kind of understand that a lot of people feel like they need to watch everything in order to understand everything. Yeah. Yeah.'cause
Tana:everything's connected. But you also
Malcolm:don't, like, I understand that. Yeah. That you want to because you wanna understand everything. Mm-Hmm. But people who read the comics don't read every comic. Right. Yeah, that's true. Like the, the, if you read a big storyline, it still refers to stuff that happened in other comics. But people aren't just going to go read 50 comics in order to be up to date
Tana:with that. It might enhance your understanding of what's going on, but it doesn't preclude you from, yeah.
Malcolm:Uh, and that's, that's the whole point. If you watch, like, if you were to read the big Avengers comic, that, that like, changed how a lot of stuff worked in the world. And then you were like, oh my gosh, what happened to Iron Man since the last time I read him? And then you want to go read it. It's Still more marketing and that's on purpose. Yeah. And it's also interesting because it makes you curious. Yeah. And I think some people are just Like I don't know it feels like they're just like raining on on fans parade Right, right people who like to watch all this stuff and enjoy all of it can They're like I understand that you don't want to but you don't have to
Tana:I do think it is natural for there to be a waning interest in certain things because When something is new, it's exciting, right? And it's new and it's simple. There's not a lot of complication. And so I, in some ways, I kind of wish they had, they were starting the original Avengers movie this year because I, I want that kind of hope and excitement again in, in the shit show that is currently our country. Uh, it, it, because I, I seriously went to see Avenger, that Avengers movie, like the first one, um, like. Three times in the theater. And I've watched it. I can't even tell you how many times I've watched this movie. I've watched it over and over. It's still one of my favorites of the whole thing. Tens of times. It's just because it introduces all these new characters and it puts them together and they, and they prevail. Right. Yeah. But then with each progressive movie things or things get a little bit more complicated. Oh, Hydra was hidden all the time. And then this person dies and that person dies. And then, uh, uh, Thanos. You know, ruins everything. And then, and then everything feels super complicated after that. Like people were lost for five years and some of them didn't make it back. That's why I don't understand
Malcolm:why people didn't or have been saying that like phases four and five have been bad because they've been picking up the pieces. And I think it's super interesting how they've been picking up the pieces.
Tana:Interesting, but it's not. I think for some people it's not the exciting superhero movie that they used to like.
Malcolm:Yeah, there are definitely a lot of people. There was even, it's funny because they used to put like the mail that um, or like fan letters would send to Stan Lee and stuff like
Tana:that in the back of
Malcolm:comics. And I remember reading one after I read this Silver Surfer comic from like the, from 1969. And someone was like, Was like damn you Stan Lee like I read superhero comics that I could see all the light and joy in the world And watch the good guy win all the time I don't need this really depressing shit of the silver surfer like Like making a good friend and losing him within a couple days. I
Tana:mean, there's I think There is something to that. I think that the complexity of the Marvel Cinematic Universe is interesting and I do find, uh, some of the darker kind of, like, I loved the Batman series that was I was going to say the most recent one, but that was not the case. Uh, the Christopher Nolan, Christian Bale played, played Batman. They were, those were dark, but, and they were good. Like they were, I'll still go back and watch those, but there, I think. The more, the worst things get, like, the more I'm just like, can I have a happy, like, superhero just swoop in and save the day and everything be good.
Malcolm:I think a lot of people also just don't like big world stuff as much. I think that's true. Because a lot of people also used to really like Star Wars, but then now a lot of people feel like there's too much Star Wars stuff. There's just too much stuff, yeah. At least with Star Wars, a lot of stuff is pretty disconnected and has very, like, Centered storylines that only really focus on themselves for the most part and then we'll give like hints towards other stuff, right? and So I think it's easier for people to do that. Yeah, but Yeah, a lot of people because I'm the same thing with Harry Potter is probably starting to become true because Harry Potter has been coming out with more stuff, right? The Potterverse. Yeah Actually, it's called the Wizarding
Tana:World I thought the whole thing was, I thought they started when she first started making the movies, I thought there was a whole thing called the Potterverse. Maybe there is, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. I could be wrong. I haven't paid that close attention.
Malcolm:But yeah, I, I don't know, there's definitely a certain level of, I think people just have it. distaste for it now because it's getting broader and they thought it was going to end so then they just dislike it because like a lot of people have been saying like phases four and five have been the worst phases and or have just like been terrible all around but I'm like like WandaVision was really good. Moon Knight, Loki. Moon Knight was really good. Loki was really good. Falcon and the Winter Soldier was really good. Actually,
Tana:Loki gave me hope. I mean, that was, that's a whole redemption story for him. And then,
Malcolm:what if, even like, circled back on it. Yeah. Uh, I think, I think what a lot of people don't like about the newer phases is that they haven't been as interconnected, which I do agree with. That they, they should be a little bit more interconnected with each other.
Tana:It also feels like there's way more TV shows, whereas the whole first thing, I mean, there was Agents of S. H. I. E. L. D., but it was mostly, like, blockbuster movie, blockbuster movie, blockbuster movie. Yeah,
Malcolm:but at least it's only, like, six episodes. It's not like, it's not like they're doing, it's not like they're doing Star Wars, where they're like, we're gonna come out with a seven season cartoon show. Right, yeah. Uh, so. Yeah. It's, I personally don't find it too bad. I think a lot of people have trouble with it because before It was the like four or five main movies, Avenger movie that brings it all together. Right, yeah. Four or five movies,
Tana:Avenger It was very predictable, which brings people
Malcolm:comfort, I think. And, well I think it's that, but also I think it like, it felt like everyone was watching these movies and then it paid off in this like big way. Yeah, yeah. And I don't think that's really happening as much. Right, well and it's And, but they're doing a lot of setup, which means that a lot of it will still pay off. And I think we're going to see stuff like that and like the Thunderbolts, I think is going to combine a lot of stuff together. Brave New World will probably combine a lot of stuff together.
Tana:You know, I have to tell you, what was the one crap, I can't remember.
Malcolm:But like, a lot of people liked Black Widow. I personally didn't. I know. Shang Chi was really
Tana:good. Oh yeah, Shang Chi was really
Malcolm:good. Um, Eternals was another pretty split one, but I don't think it's really been considered like Did not like Eternals. Like, really bad.
Tana:I did not enjoy Secret Invasion.
Malcolm:Hawkeye was really good. I think Secret Invasion has been the first one. where everyone has agreed that it was just horrible. Like, I think Secret Invasion is,
Tana:is terrible. Secret Invasion, it also for me was It was just too depressing and too close to, because you know, at the end, sorry, spoilers, if you haven't watched Secret Invasion, just, you know, maybe skip ahead, you know, a minute. The minute, the, you know, it was like all of a sudden there's all these people killing people randomly because they think they're Krulls and, you know, uh, Krulls. Scrolls. Scrolls from something else. Um, and to me, again, that was like a little too close to reality because. I just, I am legitimately fearful for what is going to happen in our country in the next year, you know? And so stuff like that, that just devolves into that violence. It's like there's that movie coming out called Civil War. Have you seen the trail for that? And I went to see a movie. With my friend. And that was one of the trailers. We both just looked at each other after it went, no, thank you. It was just like, and normally, yeah. And normally, you know, we used to watch all these dystopian movies together. Like that was our thing. It was like, Oh, another world ending movie. Let's go see it together. Like, you know, uh, and this one, I'm just like, I can't, I it's too close to what I think could happen. I can't do it, you know? So that was, sorry. That was a nice little depressing trail. So back to critics. Yeah,
Malcolm:um, Wakanda Forever was really good. Uh, Guardians of the Galaxy 3. I know
Tana:you liked that. Was amazing.
Malcolm:Yeah. Um, I thought Echo was pretty good, but from what I know, a lot of people just didn't watch
Tana:it. I didn't watch it. I totally forgot
Malcolm:about it. Um, I Think that's partially because they didn't do a good job at marketing it. Mm hmm. Same thing with the Marvels I think it's partially because of the writer's strike because a lot of them haven't been able to market it themselves
Tana:Hmm. Oh, right. You know what you have to throw that into the mixed of everything. Yeah, it's mix mix mix of everything Yeah, and it's I guess you don't want work. It actually does work
Malcolm:But it's just like you can't say that these are terrible when a lot of these are I was gonna say critically acclaimed films, but we're going against critics on this one. So But a lot of these they are good werewolf by night was amazing.
Tana:Yeah, that wasn't my jam. I loved werewolf by night. I know But that's the thing. There's always been something of a rift between critics and audience like you even if you look at Rotten Tomatoes, there's Almost every movie that has a bad critic rating has a higher audience score.
Malcolm:Oh my gosh, like, uh And sometimes it's big. Like the, um, all, uh, I don't, I don't think they had an actual title for it, but the, like, newer Ghostbusters, the all women Ghostbusters. Oh yeah! I remember that had like a 5 percent or something, and then it had like a 90 percent audience score, and it was like the biggest difference in Rotten Tomatoes I think we saw at
Tana:the time. That felt like a concerted effort by dudes who were ticked off that their beloved Ghostbusters from their childhood was being remade with women in it. Like it just, it, there was, there was a lot of, uh, bad review spamming, and a lot of it was very much like But
Malcolm:then wouldn't the audience score also be Really
Tana:low. Well, it was actually. Um, so on Rotten Tomatoes, it has a 74 percent critic rating, but 49 percent audience. Oh, maybe it was
Malcolm:the other way around then. Maybe it was a really high critic score and a really low audience score. Yeah,
Tana:and I honestly, I honestly truly think that's because, like, dudes being hurt. Um, but there are other times when that critic score is really high because it's more of like an artsy film and it's I
Malcolm:just can't imagine more of a pathetic waste of your time than to sit there at your computer and like make new accounts over and over again just to rate something poorly. Like, what are you getting out of it? What
Tana:is your life, man?
Malcolm:Such a waste of your
Tana:time. I, I, you know, someday I want to explore this psychology behind that because there's something wrong.
Malcolm:Get a toxic man here, stat!
Tana:And apparently kill him because it's an
Malcolm:autopsy? Hey, nothing
Tana:lost. Dude! Oh my god. Uh, yeah. So, we're just going to skip past that. Critics, the interesting thing I find is I think there's a lot of parallels in critics. Critical reviews? Criticism? Criticism of movies, as there is with books. Like, there is so much snobbery in books. Trust me, I have a master's in English literature, so I'm familiar with the people. I
Malcolm:think it's been for everything, because before, for a while, video game journalism was really on point. But then, I think a lot of people found the money in video game journalism, and not just the people that were actually passionate about it. And so then, it became oversaturated with clickbait, poor reviews. Cause like, there's a lot of reviews that I will click on that were like, um, that were poor reviews for a movie or a video game or something, and the person gives like, no context as to why they dislike it. And I'm like, you're a critic. You're supposed to give like concrete reasonings Yeah for why
Tana:you don't like something. So this I have to I have to talk about was just a little bit So I used to teach college composition. Yeah, and at the one school we taught with a genre based approach Which is different than like literary or movie genres. It's like Structural genres, like, uh, um, an essay versus a, I mean an argumentative essay versus a review versus a proposal versus report, you know, like they all have different audiences and purposes and ways you would go about it.
Malcolm:Like
Tana:all these different things, right? Yeah. So one of the genres we had to do was review and it was always, Always the worst. You would think like the big essay would be the worst because it requires the most work and, you know, students have to make arguments and it can be difficult to like, you know, do all that research, put together a cogent argument and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, no reviews. People don't know why they like or dislike the things they like or dislike. And it is fast. That was an interesting, a super interesting lesson for me because they'd just be like, well, I just. This just wasn't good. Okay. Why? Why didn't you like it? And I think what happens with a lot of people is we have, uh, in grained biases that come out and we don't even realize it. So like some of these guys, I mean, some of these guys that were doing this Ghostbusters spamming, we're just flat out misogynists and they were loud and proud about it. But I think some other people would go, well, I didn't like that. And they wouldn't be able to say why, but it's because they don't feel comfortable that, uh, that was a full thing led by women or that was, that included too many people of color or that, you know what I'm saying? Maybe that's
Malcolm:why I'm a good reviewer. Cause I'm, I don't really. I'm just straight to the point with my stuff, so I probably just know exactly the reasons why I like or dislike
Tana:something. Right, and I've told you that. I think that's a very unusual gift you have.
Malcolm:That's why I don't understand why people will really like something, but because the media all says it's bad, they will say it's bad. Sure. So if people are so ingrained in their own bias for stuff, then why do they also follow? I guess, I think there's, there's
Tana:both the things that are at work, right? Like there's a bias, but there's also, I mean, you're
Malcolm:afraid to say your bias, so you just agree.
Tana:Well, not just that, but there's also the bandwagon kind of. You know, thought that, oh, I just, I of the I
Malcolm:do think some of that also comes from if people read or watch something before they do it themselves. Which is why, which is why I barely watch trailers. Like, I'll watch an initial trailer for something coming out. Mm hmm. But usually after the initial trailer, all the, um, superseding, is that the right word? Preceding? No, super, like, after. Oh, super, I guess. Uh, trailers are always way more spoiler heavy for what's actually gonna happen in the movie. And so then I have a preconception of what the movie's gonna be about. Yeah. And then it makes me not like the movie as much because I already got a plot set in my head. Right. On how, on what's
Tana:going to happen. Yeah. I try not to read reviews and I try, like, the same as you to, like, see one trailer once and then be like, okay. You know, cause they can also cut trailers in, I mean, in a, in a comical way. This is demonstrated by people doing the trailers and making like kids movies into like horror movies by the trailer, you know? This is
Malcolm:why like video game trailers have been, I should say live video game trailers, and I'll explain what I mean by that in a moment, have been some of the most interesting trailers I've ever seen. Because there's games that have, that are live service, which means that they are constantly getting updates and it's not like they release it, and then they may, they might release like one or two DLCs, and then they're done and they start making the next game. Mhm. Live service games have been out for years, they get an update like every month at least. Uh, and they keep getting more and more content. So then the trailer builds on itself, and usually the trailer is actually an addition to the story itself. So, like for Warframe, they'll usually just do the trailer as the initial cinematic for whatever new quest is coming out. Because then you, you start up the game and the update comes out, and you watch a cinematic, and it's exactly what the trailer was. Gotcha. Oh, that's cool. And so it's Okay. It's litera you've literally missed nothing, you were not spoiled on anything, and it's perfect. And then Apex Legends has done it amazingly as well. Since Apex Legends is purely a PvP game, there's no like, story to it, and you don't like, create you don't like, play a campaign like you do for story games. The trailers are the story. So they they, um, they make Basically like a little TV show on the YouTube channel for the video game that you can watch all the stuff and so the new trailers create hype because you're like oh my gosh I see a new character coming in and that means I'm gonna be able to play them in the game which is really cool. One of the most interesting ones was they kept doing These things on social media where it was people in worlds were interviewing the new legend that was gonna be in Apex Legends. And then at one point the studio goes dark during one of them and then someone sneaks up behind the new legend and assassinates them. Okay. And that's how they revealed that that person that assassinated them was going to be the new legend, not the person that was in the
Tana:chair. Oh, dear God. So this entire time, because
Malcolm:Okay. They, uh, they purposely manipulated their data so people who would data mine, which means people that would, like, go into the game files and try to find secrets. And then Game Files found all of, found that this entire legend was made, they knew that the name of the legend was Forge, everything, and then they started doing the press stuff about this new legend, Forge, and so everyone's like, oh, okay, we're correct, this is the next legend. Nope, everyone was wrong, and it was probably one of the biggest, like,
Tana:diversions. Nice.
Malcolm:Nice. And, uh. That was pretty
Tana:cool. So getting back to originally what kind of kicked off this whole conversation about critics and, you know, and superhero fatigue and all that stuff. So you said you were surprised by how terror, like how many critics were like, this movie is terrible about Madam Web. Yeah. So you liked it. Yeah. That's it.
Malcolm:Are you asking me like why I liked
Tana:it? Um, I guess my question is like, do you have any thoughts about why, it feels, I could be wrong, but it feels to me like it's this pattern of criticism feels weird to me. Like there's, oh this movie wasn't good, but I don't know why, and I feel like there's something to it because I just saw an article this morning I Oh, let me see what it's called. What is the title? Some critics actually liked Madam Web. Here's what they're saying. Like just, them just saying some critics actually liked it, like felt like a very weird way to put it. And then one of the positive reviews of Madam Web on Rotten Tomatoes was like If you believe the absolute deluge of, you know, it basically was saying like, almost like it was a concentrated campaign to hate this movie. And I'm like, well, why, why would, why would that, you know, why would that be the case? So I don't know. I'm very, I don't know. I don't know if you have any thoughts about it.
Malcolm:I don't know. I think. I personally think, this is what I was telling Shelby on our way home from the movie, I personally think so many people have been seeing Sony and seeing Spider Man villains or Spider Man related heroes that they're just like, Oh, it's a Spider Man movie.
Tana:And it's not really. And it's not. And then people get upset. So it's a, it's a Because a lot of the reviews were
Malcolm:They feel misled. Yeah. A lot of the reviews were like, I'm tired of these Spider Man movies with no Spider Man in it and I'm like
Tana:And I'm like they have literally called spider man. I like they literally
Malcolm:have not Told you that there was gonna be any Spider Man, like there was not
Tana:gonna be Spider Man in the title? Like, well this, this is the, this is the, the, uh, review I was thinking about. If you were to believe the thermonuclear attack launched by the world's motion picture critics against Madame Web, you could be forgiven for expecting it to be among the worst entries of the superhero genre. But is it really that bad? Well, no. And that just that struck me like thermonuclear attack launched by the world's motion picture critics. That's why I'm like, okay What's is there something going on?
Malcolm:Yeah, I I don't know. I thought it was interesting Um, I definitely don't think it was like I because when I first saw the trailer I did not think I was gonna like that type of movie because just the cinematography and music different and the music they were playing I didn't really like that much and I still didn't really like it that much from the movie But that wasn't enough to distract me from, like, liking the characters and stuff so Yeah, I don't know
Tana:What did you think about the performances like where people act was the acting bad was there You know,
Malcolm:I think it was decent.
Tana:Okay, so basically you
Malcolm:know, I just like the story to be on you like the story Okay, just like I thought, obviously there's always, I think there were a little light on things in some cases. Like, I think in some cases there is light being, and this is a problem I think that's been made with a lot of Marvel movies, honestly, is that there's been light made out of really bad situations. Oh. And Um, some cases it works, some cases it doesn't, because sometimes it's a character, like, diffusing, or sometimes it's a character deflecting, or sometimes Oh, okay, yeah,
Tana:okay,
Malcolm:yeah. But in this movie and a lot of other Marvel movies, there have just been times where it's just like, that was just straight up not appropriate. Like, that was just, that just felt really weird and out of place. Okay.
Tana:But it sounds Go ahead.
Malcolm:Sorry. But I thought it was really interesting seeing, like It was like an evil Spider Man, basically, that was, and it worked really well as like this suspense thriller horror film. They did a really good job with it.
Tana:So you mean an evil Spider Man other than the, uh, Toby Maguire, Venom.
Malcolm:Yeah, he wasn't really evil. He was just
Tana:a dick. But,
Malcolm:definitely better than that one. That's
Tana:for sure. So it sounds like you're saying like, it wasn't like, oh my gosh, it was this fantastic movie, but it's not as bad as everybody's making it out to
Malcolm:be. Yeah, I, I think I liked it better than Thor, Love and Thunder. I think I liked it better than Thor, The Dark World. Man, I feel bad
Tana:for Thor. Yeah, Thor the Dark World was Yeah, no.
Malcolm:Not the best. And I thought it was better than Secret Invasion. I don't know. I, it might also be because I didn't, because I've been hearing that comic book fans didn't like it. And so that might, some of it might just be that I just have really have missed that corner of the spider verse. And so therefore it was new and interesting to me. And so therefore that means that I enjoyed it a lot more. And maybe if I read, uh, Madam Web or if I read. About all the other spider women, then
Tana:Spider women? I don't know why that sounds funny to me. Spider men would sound funny to me, too. I do really like
Malcolm:Aranya, who's in it, cause, uh, I have read some of her stuff, but I never read what her, like, origin story was, or I haven't really read much of her, like, I don't know, like Um, alter identity type thing. Wait, Aranya? Aranya is a
Tana:spider woman. That totally makes sense. Um, in Haitian Creole, the word for spider is Aranyen. That's funny. Anyway, go ahead.
Malcolm:I think her name is Anya too. So it's all just
Tana:Yeah, like related. Getting, getting back to sort of like the critics versus audience thing. And then I think we probably need to wrap up. Uh, I went to see Argyle. With a friend a couple of weeks ago, it has a tomato meter score of 33 percent but an audience score of 72 percent and that's kind of where, and I would love for us to talk about this again sometime because I think this is what kind of goes back to the whole snobbery that I say is in literature as well, where popular books are panned by critics. It almost, it almost feels like a, Like a, um, uh, a badge of honor to be like, Oh, I found Twilight to be terrible. And I'm like, okay, well Twilight was one of the most popular books to read, you know, and it's, And they're like, but it's just not good writing. And people like
Malcolm:going against, against the status quo. And I think some of it as well as being the professional. I think some people think that being a critic means that you need to break down all of the cinematography, all of the sound, all of the like story writing and everything and ignore if it is simply enjoyable.
Tana:Thank you. And that is what I think really happened with Argyle because Argyle is not Mission Impossible. Okay. It's not a, uh, meant to be a blockbuster spy intrigue. Oh my gosh, James Bond kind of a thing, right? It is campy and it is meant to be campy. Exactly. And just like, can you just enjoy that for what it is? So
Malcolm:a critic will watch Mission Impossible and then we'll watch another spy movie. And be like, it is too close to Mission Impossible, we already have a Mission Impossible movie. And then we'll watch a movie that, a spy movie that isn't close to Mission Impossible because it's its own thing. And it's like, a movie that failed trying to be Mission Impossible. Right. Shut
Tana:up, prick! No, it's not trying to be Mission Impossible! It's
Malcolm:like It feels like they missed the intent of everything. Which is so weird because as a critic you're supposed to nail the intent on the head.
Tana:Right. And also, um, maybe let people enjoy things. Like, that's where, that's where I get really irritated.
Malcolm:Okay, if you're a critic and you're saying stop enjoying the movie, that's one thing, but I mean, a critic's job is quite literally
Tana:Well, that's, that's fair, but I think I guess it, I'm just kind of saying in a different way what we were just saying, which is there, there are different intents, there are different purposes. No, it's,
Malcolm:it's definitely the critics that I read that were like, okay, um, people need to stop liking superhero movies after 15 years. It's like, uh, shut
Tana:up. Right. Yeah. Like that, that's, that's a ridiculous comment. Yeah. But like, you have to know that if you're going in to rate a campy movie or a superhero movie or, or a comedy even, it's not going to have the same thing as like, Power of the dog, you know, like it's, it's just, they're different animals and let the, let, let the people enjoy their popular movies, you know, just enjoy it, man, just eat some popcorn and shut up.
Malcolm:It's like how a lot of English teachers or professors or something would get mad at you for writing a certain way or something like that and then you point out that like plenty of authors and stuff write their stories
Tana:in that way. You're getting into dangerous territory here. I'm just saying.
Malcolm:If it's grammatically correct, it makes sense, and it portrays exactly what it's supposed to portray, it is not bad
Tana:writing. Okay, on the surface, I agree with you, but I feel like I would want to know more, but that's like a whole discussion for another time, because
Malcolm:Anyways, I'm correct, let's end the podcast now.
Tana:Fine. I don't even know what to do with you right now. Well, so anyway, wait, wait, wait. No, we're gone. One last second. Just enjoy the movies you enjoy. That's all I wanted to say. Okay. Goodbye. Bye.