Do you ever feel lost at work or school, like you're missing something? Have you ever accidentally broken a "family rule" you were unaware of? Malcolm and Tana talk about the hidden rules at school, work, and with families and how to combat them.
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Malcolm:don't know who that makes me think of, but
Tana:I think it was, it was, if I would have extended it, it would have been like, that was what's up commercials. But yeah, anyway,
Malcolm:uh, or, uh, um, Louise from Ant Man. I think he's making fun of the commercial in Ant Man, but that's what my mind went to.
Tana:Oh my god, I love him
Malcolm:so much. Uh, actually, speaking of Marvel, last night, I Like
Tana:you need a, like you need an excuse. Yeah. Speaking of Marvel!
Malcolm:Speaking of which, I'm not, I'm not thinking of it. Uh, but
Tana:sometimes you think about Star Wars.
Malcolm:Yeah, that's true. That's true. Or video games. Uh,
Tana:or Star Wars video games
Malcolm:or Marvel video games or Marvel Star Wars. You contain multitudes. I can. Uh, but I, cause uh, for anyone who doesn't know, I've been reading through like all of the comics. from 1961 with the first Fantastic Four comic, all the way to present, and I just finished 1969, and so now I'm in the 1970s. Oh, right.
Tana:Woo! So,
Malcolm:yeah.
Tana:Oh my gosh. What? I was like, oh finally you're up to like 50 some odd years ago, and then I was like, oh my gosh, I was born in the 70s.
Malcolm:It's been super fun though because it's, it's interesting reading about, or it's, it's interesting seeing how all of the, like, the storylines start to get actually like, Better. Because obviously it was like early sixties. The stories were not very, it was much more geared towards children than it was then is now. And, but the storylines have gotten like better. And I mean, I, actually it fights a lot of, um, social injustice. Like one of the most recent Avengers comics, uh, fights a lot of racism. Oh,
Tana:So good. Yeah. Well, I feel like there was a lot of 1969.
Malcolm:So I was like,
Tana:well, there's, I feel like there was a lot of that, like better at least. Okay. I'm trying to think of how to. It's, it's always been interesting to me that the stereotype of like the comic book nerd or, you know, those kinds of fans, and then lumping in like video game fandom and stuff like that is that it's always a bunch of white guys who get frustrated when anything like diversity comes into play. And, you know, when it feels like to me, those genres, Have always been a little more on the, yeah, they've been on the more forefront, like, you know, there's like a 1940s.
Malcolm:But you're talking about the difference between Marvel and DC here
Tana:now. Are like DC bros the worst or something?
Malcolm:No, it's, just in my opinion, Marvel was way more, uh, Progressive than D. C. was. Well, I remember,
Tana:well, I remember Superman. Wasn't it Superman? There was like a Superman comic where he was like, the most American thing is to be like accepting of other people and their differences or something. Maybe it was Captain America. I don't know. It's definitely Captain America, that's for sure. Um, and then, um, Star Trek, the TV series in the 60s? Yes. Um, they were, like, they were breaking all kinds of rules. Barriers.
Malcolm:The cat just jumped onto the fucking table.
Tana:I think she realized she didn't have enough space, and so she panicked last second. Okay, sorry for that. Scared the shit out of me. Sorry for that interruption. Uh,
Malcolm:anyway. I was trying to play with her to calm her down before our thing, but
Tana:She's a little wound up, but anyway, um, yeah, I mean, uh, Star Trek like broke all kinds of barriers and stuff, you know, and, and so it's, it's, um, it's always been fascinating to me. When like, there are corners of those fandoms that are like super racist, bigoted jerks. And I'm just like, do you not even, like I also realize there's a lot of like sexist things and probably racist things and ableist things that like exist in the comics as well. Like, you know, there's been complaints about how women superheroes are dressed versus male superhero, you know, things like that. And
Malcolm:there have even been like There was actually one comic of the X Men that was like, uh, Marvel does not support this type of thinking anymore. This is purely, this is purely for like, it wasn't like historical, but it was like purely for like having all of the comics in the app. And they're like, Marvel doesn't stand by this anymore. Cause it was weird because it's like the X Men, which is the whole thing was. Racism for the X Men comics because, you know, yeah, mutants versus not mutants. Right.
Tana:But yeah, yeah. So anyway, yeah. Um, where were we? What were we
Malcolm:talking about? I mean, we, I had just jumped into,
Tana:Oh, you just were talking about where you were in the comics. Yeah.
Malcolm:Gotcha. I think it's interesting as well. Cause like I can tell how the art style is getting better too. And the covers. I'm guessing the covers get better first because you want to entice people to read those comics. Sure, yeah. So the covers are usually better than the artwork that's inside of the comic. But then over time, the artwork inside of the comic starts to match the cover, but then the cover then gets better.
Tana:Oh, it's like a race. So it's
Malcolm:like, so it's like the cover has been the thing that slowly has escalated or elevated all of the artwork and stuff, which is super interesting to me because I'm like, Oh,
Tana:There's probably a whole study you could do on
Malcolm:that. Probably. It was just because my whole guess is that it's all for marketing. It's all so people see the cover and I'm like, Oh my gosh, that artwork looks way better than it has in the past. I'm going to buy this comic.
Tana:Ah. Interesting.
Malcolm:I don't know if that's the truth, but that would be my guess.
Tana:Do you remember, um, my, the one person I went to graduate school named, uh, with named Molly? She, um, her dissertation was on like doing like a rhetorical analysis of like comics communication and design and stuff like that. Really? Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. Anyway, so yeah, her, her dissertation has been downloaded a lot more than mine.
Malcolm:By comic
Tana:nerds. It's just a more interesting topic than mine was. What was
Malcolm:your topic? Um. Wow, you can't even
Tana:remember. I'm trying to think of, well, I'm trying to think of how to, how to do a non, like super field based, you know what I mean? Yeah. It's basically the, about the mission statement of nonprofit organizations as a genre. Gotcha. Yeah. So, sounds thrilling, doesn't it does, yeah. I was on the edge of my seat writing it, because I was afraid I would fail.
Malcolm:Oh, I remember those stressful years
Tana:for you. Yeah, it was not fun. And I remember the one time you, uh, you and dad specifically left and like went somewhere so I could have time to finish my, just like it was getting towards the end. Um, and as soon as you left our dog, June had a seizure, like the worst one she had ever had. And then an hour later she had another seizure. Oh my God. And then an hour later she had another seizure. Um, Like, and I called the vet and they were like, sometimes it happens. And, you know, keep an eye on this, keep an eye on that. But sometimes it happens in succession like that. And, you know, she should be fine. But it was just like, are you kidding me?
Malcolm:Jude was like, no, fuck
Tana:you. I was like, so stressed out. I was like, why are you doing this to me right now, dog? And it was like, of course, there was like stuff everywhere. Um, you know, yeah. Anyway, so, uh, She should've known better. She should've been more respectful. Yeah, no kidding.
Malcolm:What a jerk. Yeah, geez. Uh, another thing I'm excited about, like, getting into the, into the 70s is that now all the, like, events are gonna start happening. Like, before it was, like, all, like, standalone comics, but now it's going to be getting to the point where the superheroes and stuff start mixing a lot more and like big events start happening. Like, uh, I know the Kree Skrull War is going to be the first one I think that's going to be happening. Yeah. Where I think Captain Marvel gets killed
Tana:and Oh, spoiler.
Malcolm:Well, the first Captain Marvel, that was a guy. Okay, that's cool. And then it becomes Carol Danvers. But yeah, it was, uh, but yeah, I'm, I'm super excited for that, for all that stuff. And then, uh, especially since some of the most famous events of all time happened in the seventies still. So it's like, it's kind of crazy to think that some of what is considered the best events happened. 50 years
Tana:ago. You mean like events in comics world? In comics. Okay, I was like what, what are the best events? The Vietnam War? Like what? What are you talking, like what's? I'm sorry, the best events did happen in the 70s because that's when I was born. Ah, yes.
Malcolm:But one of, one of the most popular ones is the Phoenix Force saga. Oh, okay. And the Dark Phoenix saga for the X Men. Yeah,
Tana:Dark Phoenix, okay. Okay, okay. Anyway. Anyway. Anyway. What's our topic
Malcolm:today? Our, uh, topic for today will be hidden, hidden, not hidden meanings, but like hidden rules. That's what it is.
Tana:We actually, we should have never announced the topic and just been like, you have to figure it out. Like a hidden rule of our podcast is that we don't tell you anything. We, we shoot the shit for the first like five or ten minutes before actually getting to a
Malcolm:topic. Yep.
Tana:Anyway, yeah. So explain the concept of hidden rules.
Malcolm:Oh gosh. Or do you want me to? Don't get me started except for it's for a podcast. So I will anyways. But
Tana:yeah, that's kind of the whole point,
Malcolm:man. Uh, work, school, family, anything that just has those like Things that you wouldn't necessarily, like, tell someone, your family, work, or whatever does. But there's, like, a hidden rule there that you're supposed to follow. Yeah. I think one of those, like Common ones for men, that's just like a general one, is never go to the urinal directly next to another guy. Right. You always leave a space. Unless you're at a trough. Unless you're at a trough.
Tana:Which is the most Then it's one space. Which is the most disgusting thing ever.
Malcolm:Yes, I hope I never see a trough
Tana:again. Oh my god. That was a desperate situation. Whoever decided it was like, Hey, we should just put a trough and have all the men just pee into it. It's like, what the? I
Malcolm:mean, they came in their buses probably happy that it saved them so much
Tana:money for playing. Oh yeah, that's true. There's so much, yeah, so much is cost savings. But yeah, so those expectations people have, but they don't always necessarily express.
Malcolm:Yeah. I think the, I think one of the biggest ones, Actually, I don't know. Both school and work are
Tana:really big ones. I feel like school and work, yeah, probably have the biggest ones. Um, I think you encountered that at your school when you transferred. Yes. Um,
Malcolm:I think I've just, I think I've just experienced that in school in general.
Tana:Yeah, that's, that's an interesting thing. Yeah. Cause I feel like you are a very, um, logical and straightforward person. And so if a teacher didn't Like outright tell you something you were like, well, why would I think to do that? You know? Yeah, like,
Malcolm:uh, I got I got a bad grade on something because I didn't use enough color or something in my presentation, but I was like, it doesn't say anywhere in here that this needs
Tana:to be a flashy presentation. There was a poster board that you, you were supposed to do and you hadn't grown up. That school was like pre K to high school, like to 12. Like it was the whole gamut. And so people who had gone there the whole time probably, you know, had developed over time, like these are the expectations for presentations and poster boards and, um, you had to put together a poster board presentation for something and you just sort of like wrote on the poster board and you didn't write very large either. Um, I'm not a very large writer. No. And so you didn't use like big markers and colors and all this stuff. Um, which now I looked at that when you had it completed and went, Oh, this isn't, this is probably not what they're looking for. But that's because, you know. I had gone to school and I remember, you know, but your assignment didn't say anything about that. It didn't say, use colors, use large print, use markers, use, like, it was, it was just create a poster board and, and put this on it. And that's exactly what you did. Yep. And so that was, that was a really fascinating moment for me because I realized that I'm watching
Malcolm:your Doomed child's presentation.
Tana:I was like, dang, this kid's in for some trouble. But no, I, I always kind of figured those things out in school. Like even if something wasn't expressed, like I, I got the game of school, you know what I mean? So I figured it out. Kind of like you figure out these things in your video games you play and you're like, Oh, you go over here, you go do this. And you just figure it out because you know how video games work. Um, me, I knew how school worked, you know? Um, but then also of course, I have experienced those things. So now I know for sure, like, yeah, that's what they're looking for. And, but. you hadn't had that kind of presentation as like expected of you in any of your classes yet. So you had no idea. And I, I did find it fascinating that they took points off because, you know, I, I thought once we explained it, I can't remember, did they ever give you any of those points back? I don't know. I don't remember, but I remember having the conversation and saying, you know, I don't think so. You didn't put it on there. So how, why would he know this? I don't think
Malcolm:so because I think there were a lot of assignments from that class that were like that. And I think at the end of the semester, I had like a D. I think I was like messed up because I had never gotten, I don't think I had even gotten a C before. I don't think
Tana:you ended with a D though. I think you brought it back up, but I do remember your, I don't remember how they had it, but you had like some kind of like counselor. or like academic advisor or something that did go and talk to the teacher to say he has a point, you know, but yeah, so it was, it was really interesting. And that school was particularly difficult because, you know, because it was pre K to high school. And it was a college
Malcolm:prep school too. So there was just like a big load of everything.
Tana:Yeah. And you were. entering at 8th grade. So, you know, uh, there were a lot of hidden rules there that were very frustrating for you. I did math though. You did, yes,
Malcolm:but But that's because I'm pretty sure I already did the class before I
Tana:Yeah, you said a lot of that stuff was familiar, but Yeah, so Because
Malcolm:they didn't count my gifted program class from my previous middle school, so I just took the same class again, basically.
Tana:Oh, really? Mm. Yeah, because
Malcolm:I went from algebra to algebra when I could have been doing geometry.
Tana:You went from algebra to algebra? Well, there are, I had algebra one and algebra two when I was in school, so I mean, there could have just been
Malcolm:two. Yeah. But took algebra two after geometry.
Tana:Uh, okay. Oh, right. Well, anyway. Yeah, so I feel like there are, there are rules. I think families are actually a really good example of it as well, because when you bring someone home to meet your family, you don't always think to say, Like, oh, just so you know, my, my parents don't like this type of joke, or we always do this before dinner, or you don't think about it because it's normal to you, like, you know?
Malcolm:That's why Shelby's, both sides of Shelby's family thought I was just quiet. But I was just observing because I didn't want to do anything wrong.
Tana:You were taking field notes. I was. That's what I
Malcolm:do for everything. And so everyone always thinks I'm quiet at first, but I'm just observing and like making sure I get the gist of everything first. Because I don't want to like fuck it up immediately. Right. Yeah. So because some people just don't have the same sense of humor about something or if. Yeah. But there's also, especially with family stuff, there's a lot of family stuff that like expect physical touch, and I don't want physical touch. That is I don't want to hug people I don't know.
Tana:Yeah, I feel like that's a big one that That's more of a generational one. Yeah, that's sort of a Expect an expectation In a lot of family situations, particularly of children, which is disturbing if you think about it. Yes. Like we're training our children that it is normal for them to hug people they don't know. You know, and that's, that's always been a, an interesting, um, thought to me where, you know, there's so much, so many things where they warn children of this type of person and that type of person, and there's so much child abuse and all that stuff out there. And yet, And some people, if you suggest, well, children, children should have agency over their own bodies. They're like, you're being ridiculous. And they're the same ones who would claim that, you know, they're all there for the protection of children. Yes. You know, so, uh, that's, that's, that's always been fascinating to me. Um, I remember there was a book that came out, a children's book that was about consent and it was basically saying like, um, you know, this relative wants, um, Jeannie to, you know, give him a hug, but she doesn't want to, and that's okay. Like, it was kind of like that kind of a thing. Yeah. And this, um, ugh, Matt Walsh. Not Matt Walsh, the funny actor from Veep, Matt Walsh, the jerky right wing commentator who made that stupid movie. Um, what was that movie? Like Lady Ballers or something. It was so dumb. Anyway, uh, he, he did a whole, He did like a whole video on how this book was ridiculous and it was wokeness gone wrong and you know, all this stuff. And then he was like, my kids will do what I tell them to do. And they don't have agency. They don't, they don't get consent. They just do what I say, you know? And I just thought, wow, dude, you're the ones who are going off about different people being pedophiles, but yet you're, Like contributing to the cause. Exactly. It was just, oh, it was wild. But anyway, so yeah, I feel like there's, there's like the family ones, the school ones, work ones are interesting too, because you can get You can
Malcolm:get in trouble for things you don't know about.
Tana:Yeah, yeah. And I think some of them are hidden rules of sort of like the workplace culture, right? So like, maybe it's, okay, during an all hands, all staff meeting or whatever, we don't bring up this topic. Or it's understood that you address things in this way or whatever. But then there's a whole other level that I don't know if it would fall under hidden rules. or if it just be more like unspoken expectations where bosses just do not give clear direction or have clear expectations and yet they expect you to meet them. Yeah,
Malcolm:like previous coffee shop I worked at, we, first, he didn't tell us anything. We were never, it was always word of mouth between employees about how everything was supposed to go.
Tana:That's, that, that's not a recipe for
Malcolm:disaster. Yeah, and so, both of us would be like, well the boss told me to do this. And then the other person would be like, well he told me to do it this way. And then it's like, what do you even do then? Right. Cause both people were told different things by the boss. Or
Tana:they interpreted it differently. But either way, you don't have some sort of
Malcolm:thing to refer to. Also, he had told me about the same thing in two different ways. That's helpful. So I don't, I don't think it was
Tana:misinterpretation,
Malcolm:but I mean, I got through it. But apparently he was also just paranoid of everyone. So I don't think it mattered what we did right or wrong, I think. We were going to be on his bad side, no matter what. Yeah.
Tana:So. Yeah. And that's, that's something I think until, I want to say my first exposure to the thought about hidden rules in an, in a, like an explicit way, like I probably sensed at different times, like, Oh, I didn't realize that. You know, that was a thing here, whatever, you know, may have expressed that but never really thought about it as, oh, there are hidden rules places and that's problematic. Um, my first introduction to that was, uh, training, um, uh, called Bridges Out of Poverty. And you know what? I, as I'm saying that, I feel like maybe some people have, have revealed some problematic things about that training since then, but I'm not sure. But regardless, there were these, these, uh, rules of poverty, middle class and wealth. And there were, it was a list of sort of these like unwritten rules of the different, Um, classes, so to speak, and how, if you're from one or the other, you might not understand what the, the hidden rules are in each situation. And so, uh, in particular, it was focused on the fact that, you know, for the bulk of society is made to middle class rules. And so somebody in poverty is not maybe going to understand if they get into certain situations that you know, this is what the expectation is of you. And so sometimes as middle class individuals, we would make judgments of people in poverty because they didn't adhere to our rules. And we think of them as just being sensible. That's just how you do it. That's just, why would anybody do it any other way? Common sense. It's common sense. And that, that was, That was a thing that I had to learn to get over, you know, because it was, Oh, I was raised this way and this is how all the people around me act. So that must be the way. And so if anybody acted contrary to that, then there was something wrong with them. And that's just such an interesting thought to me, because how would anybody know if they didn't grow up? Like. I did not grow up in abject poverty. So how would I know if I went into a poorer neighborhood, how would I know if something I said or did was going to be offensive? Yeah. You know, um, and yeah. So
Malcolm:some people also just have individual hidden rules about things, especially when it comes to stuff like that. Like, um, there are, um, Like some people that might find something racist that most people don't or something that Right that they find is sexist that most people don't or Something along those lines and it's always just
Tana:There's it's always confusing There's um, because you don't want to offend anyone. No, well some people do but I was gonna say i'm sure some people don't but there's That was an interesting, okay. So I have a couple of different thoughts and they're all competing for first place in my mouth.
Malcolm:Very strange way to put that.
Tana:There's like brain to mouth funnel is clogged at the moment. It's like with different ideas. We used to talk about that all the time in high school and be like, your funnel's broken, but okay. I'm just going to pick one. Now, I don't remember what any of them were. They were all jockeying for position and they all left. They all left. Oh my gosh. What was it? Oh, when I was working for an organization that tried to do more equitable hiring, there was somebody who did an interview for a job and I, and I, and they were asking, so I was part of the group of people. Doing the interviewing and they asked my impressions. I was like, Oh no, I just felt like she was really unprofessional. And they were like, why? And I listed a couple of things and they were like, well, what if it was this? What if it was that? Like, what if the reason she was wearing that was because of this? And why do you expect, why was your expectation that, you know, because this person was wearing, um, a white tank top, And was out like on the roof of her building or something. And it was really windy. And so we couldn't hear her very well. And you know what I mean? And I was just like, and why is she wearing a tank top? Why doesn't she have like something on, you know, like it just, that doesn't feel like appropriate dress for the, for the, you know, interview and all this stuff. And the one person was like, well, what if, You know, this is a financial thing and they live in an apartment with four other people because that's the only way they could afford the apartment and the apartment was too full so they had to go up on the roof and unfortunately for them it happened to be windy and you know, that was terrible but what other choice did they, you know what I mean? It was like all these like kinds of ways of understanding it and, and saying like, oh, Was that actually unprofessional or do you have a specific idea of what professionalism is that might need to be questioned? And so that was a really kind of eyeopening thing for me where I was like, yeah, I've been kind of groomed into this idea of professionalism that has been set mostly by like older white dudes for centuries, you know, like this is what's acceptable. That's why it
Malcolm:feels weird for me to like wear something nice to go to an interview for a coffee shop. I'm like, I'm not even going to be wearing something that nice at a coffee shop. I
Tana:always wondered about that too. I always wondered like, could you just show up in jeans and a t shirt? I don't even remember what I wore when I was younger.
Malcolm:Because like we, we just wear like semi-formal pants and a T-shirt that has the logo on it. Right. So like yeah. Should I wear something more dressy than that to an interview?
Tana:It's interesting that you say that.'cause I do think there's a danger of being overdressed. Yeah. Which I will admit affected my opinion of somebody who was uh, interviewing for a job I was hiring for. Really? Yeah, because the job was a part-time job. Uh, work, it was a very like kind of grassroots organization and it was working with high school students and it was just the overall feel of our organization was the dressiest you got was wearing a logoed polo shirt. And pants. Like that was, you know what I mean?
Malcolm:Yeah, but what if their parents told them that they need to look all Well,
Tana:that's the thing. This guy came in dressed to the nines. He had the fanciest business suit I've ever seen, like ever. And I was like, this is a part time job, man. Like, you know, chill. And, um, and, but I mean, I, I, I don't know if, I don't know if, if the suit itself caused a You know, or if it was just the whole package, because he also was acting like we were so lucky that he Oh, that's annoying. deigned to appear. That's annoying. And, and basically was like, All but said the words, if you don't hire me, you're morons. Like, you know, it was, so I, and I think that's just the suit played into that, you know? Um, so I don't know, but I, but I was a little like, dude, okay, you're way over addressed. This is, you know, you're going to be like hanging out at a high school and, you know, so it was, yeah, anyway.
Malcolm:That's kind of funny though. Uh, I think the thing is for on the other side as well is, and I think part of this is just, Not, you're so used to your business that you don't think about it. Oh yeah. 100%. And so you don't tell the person that's interviewing all the information that they need to know about the job. That's true.
Tana:Yeah. Yes,
Malcolm:that's true. So I've gotten so used to asking questions about things because I just, or asking them like, what is every position or like, what is, what are all the things I'm going to do day to day? You don't, I don't know why a lot of interviewers don't think about that. But,
Tana:uh, Well, cause they're asking to learn about you. They're, then they expect you to ask questions to learn about the job.
Malcolm:Yeah. And I think that's somewhat an unfair expectation because, because then if you hire them because they seem like a good fit, but they didn't ask you any questions and then they might quit because you have too high expectations for them. Yeah. You could have told them and then they could have come in with the expectation. You
Tana:could have said, here's what the job is. Here's what you should expect. Plus, I think in interview situations, you're a little, um, worried about asking questions. Like what are their impressions are of the questions you're asking? Yes. You know, and so I think asking, asking questions in an interview is like one of the most difficult things. Cause you're, you're like, okay, I have a million things I want to know. I just don't know if it's appropriate to ask it in this interview. That
Malcolm:was some trouble I had with getting the most recent job I have right now because I hadn't been working for a few months already. Right. And so I was super nervous because if I didn't get this job then I was gonna be screwed on money. Yeah. But I didn't want to be screwed on a job either. Right, right, right. And so, but I mean, first of all she was a great interviewer so I actually don't feel like I need, I didn't need to ask that many questions. That's good. For her. That's rare. I know, right? And, uh, I totally have like a whole list of questions on my phone that I was so prepared to ask. I still asked a couple, but she seems like pleased that I was asking these questions. So it was, it was a good job experience.
Tana:Cause it showed you have initiative and you're thinking about things.
Malcolm:But I, you know, there's a certain level where it's like, Like I wanted to ask is cause I didn't ask for working in the previous coffee shop, if there's any positions to move up and there wasn't. And so I got, I got screwed on any future chance in the job. Good question. And so I then asked her that and I was like, am I going to come over like arrogant that I'm like gunning for the next level position right
Tana:away? An employer hears that and thinks, Oh, this person has initiative and we'll take, Uh, we'll, we'll, we'll, I can't think of any other word other than initiative. And it's not just going to be like, show up for work, kind of schlep around and leave, you know, that shows, you know. And
Malcolm:remember there's also the question about like what happened at my previous job and why I,
Tana:I hate that question. Cause how do you, cause they don't, you, you shouldn't be like negative about a previous employer. I was, but you also are like, I wasn't fired. Like it was
Malcolm:toxic. You know, that's what I was super, uh, Well, yeah, I guess I wasn't even fired. I technically quit. It's just that they, you know, stopped scheduling me my
Tana:last two week notice. You quit and they didn't accept your two weeks, like, basically. Yeah.
Malcolm:And,
Tana:uh Which is always fascinating to me because employers will be so ticked off if you don't give them a two week notice. But then they don't schedule me for the last two weeks. Other employers are just like, oh well. Like,
Malcolm:thanks for screwing me over. Just leave now. Screwing me, my money over. Right, exactly. But, I, I mean, I was just completely honest. I was like, this might totally screw me over because these are two, uh, These are two women that own coffee shops within the same area that probably know each other because both the coffee shops have been around for a long time. But I was like, I also didn't want to lie because I feel horrible about lying about stuff like that. Right.
Tana:Other stuff is fine, just stuff like that you don't like lying about. Well, I'm just joking. Yes and
Malcolm:no. It's a whole other topic for another day. But yeah, that was, that took me a moment, I think, because I was just like, I don't, I don't know if I actually want to say this or not. Yeah. But yeah, I was just like That is hard.
Tana:It was toxic. But you know, I think you, you did one of the, in your interview it sounds like, uh, and basically on the job based on other things you've told me, it sounds like you do one of the best things you can to counter hidden rules, which is ask questions. Like on the, on the, I think there's two things that could really help get rid of hidden rules. Um, one is, Um, or to help you navigate it, it's asking questions to help avoid them being, um, Uh, there in the first place is for the people in some form of power, uh, to have better communication to begin with, you know, so at school, it's, it's teachers, administrators at work, it's managers, you know.
Malcolm:I think what helped for this coffee shop, it could just be that they are just an organized coffee shop, but the fact that it is a very popular one, they moved to a bigger location and they recently got a ton of staff. So they either needed to get organized because they're going to have such a big influx of people, um, both staff and customers, or they were probably going to fail moving. And so it could have just been that I came in at the right time that they already had all of their stuff organized out. But,
Tana:uh, yeah, that's the extreme danger. So there's, there's, Uh, benefits and drawbacks of all kinds of different sizes of businesses. Right. So I think a benefit of a super large corporation is that there are very clear rules. They're very clear policies and procedures, you know, and there's usually very clear communication. There's communication channels set up and often an entire employee whose job it is just to be dedicated to, you know, monitoring. Communications with the staff. I would love that job. Uh, what? I said, I would love that job. Wow. Then there you go. Try to work towards that. It's, uh, it's actually, I've, I've been that person and it's, it's interesting. It's, it's interesting challenge because people communicate differently and, and then also, you know, how do you get the flow of information from the people that need to give you the information to share with the employees, but, uh, yeah, but the danger then, you know, that danger. And the opposite size of like a small shop is that often you don't have enough employees to do all the tasks that need to be done. And so, It feels like taking the time to sit and assess and communicate is a luxury, but it's not. It's a necessity, but it's because it's not the task that is producing revenue or whatever, creating a product or, you know, whatever the thing is, it feels like
Malcolm:Which is why a lot of businesses don't have a communication system.
Tana:Yeah, there's, it's really, it's so strange to me how it's not the first thing for most places. It really should be because proper communication, uh, is essential to keeping a business running. And so one, one thing, and I'm never, you know, I'm never going to claim to have been perfect with this, but one of the things I try, I've tried to do over the years to improve that is, Um, and so I think that's a really good idea. And I think that, for myself is to try to ask more clear, you know, Oh, I want you to do this. Okay. Do you want this or this or this? And when do you want it by? And you know what I mean? Like ask a bunch of questions. And then I also, uh, got into the habit of sending summaries after meetings because, because especially of working with bosses who are kind of all over the place and they're just flying by the sea of their pants and they're like, that's what you get to do too. I would, we would have a meeting and I would take away a certain understanding. And then later on they'd be like, no, I didn't want you to do that. I wanted you to do this. So I started sending summaries. and saying, Oh, hey, we just had this meeting. I just want to make sure we're in agreement that my next steps are this and your next steps are that and blah, blah, blah. And then if they write back and say, yes, that goes in my, uh, CMA folder in my email. Um, but yeah, Do you know what CMA stands for? Cover my ass. And so when they go, well, why didn't you do it this way? I just pull up that email and I go, well, I expressed to you, you know, um, it was kind of funny. I just saw a humor animation. Like that's their, I think that's their title. Humor animations on TikTok that Did this very thing where the boss was like, I don't think you need to send me a summary every time. And the worker was like, um, yes, I do. Clearly I do. So anyway, so that's, that's how I've tried to, to, um, avoid problems. So I'll try if I'm in a bad, if I'm in a place with bad communication, I'll try to at least make sure my communication is good, but it's very frustrating. It just reminds me of,
Malcolm:uh, one time in, in high school, uh, apparently a bunch of People got like a really low grade on their stuff. And so my teacher emailed all of those people. In one email, by the way, so everyone could just see everyone else that You
Tana:all got a bad grade. You
Malcolm:suck. And I was part of the email and I was like, I thought I got like 100 percent on that. And then she sent an email again. She said, sorry Malcolm, you don't I don't belong in this list.
Tana:You all suck, but Malcolm's pretty cool. I know, I was like, I feel
Malcolm:so bad, I'm like, I just saw everyone
Tana:that didn't do well
Malcolm:on this assignment, and then I was told in front of everyone that I, like, did really well on the assignment, and so I don't need to be here.
Tana:Oh my god.
Malcolm:I was
Tana:like, oh no. God, that is not, you should not be sharing that information with everybody. I know. Oh my gosh. Oh wow. Oh dang. That's bad.
Malcolm:Well I think she wanted them to like work together to like fix their stuff but. Okay.
Tana:Oh my
Malcolm:God. Yeah. That stressed me out. And I wasn't, I didn't even need to do anything. And I was stressed out the whole time. I don't think I ever responded to either of the You were
Tana:like, cool. I'll just pretend this didn't happen. Oh my goodness. All right. So I, I mean, I said, I, Obviously the ideal would be is people in management, people, heads of families, school administrators, teachers, whoever has some sort of authority, you know, to be very clear in their communication, right? And then for everybody else to also be very clear with their communication.
Malcolm:I'd say the most important thing is just don't get frustrated with people who ask questions.
Tana:That's a good one. I didn't even think about that. I always think about questions as a good thing. And sometimes I find myself apologizing to people because I'll be like, I'm sorry I asked a lot of questions and I shouldn't.
Malcolm:That's what I told when I first started working here, I was like, just to let you know, I'm going to be asking a ton of questions. That's my boy. And I was like, Oh, okay, that's great. Yeah. Like
Tana:that's good. I think one of the, um, boy, we could do a whole podcast on asking questions. Uh, but one of the things I would want to throw out there for people who are, who might actually like be listening to this and going, Oh man, this is actually, I have this problem at work. I have this problem at school. Thanks for the tips. You know, um, one thing I would add is to get better at asking questions is to just get better, get better. You suck. Oh
Malcolm:my goodness. That was aggressive.
Tana:This is how I get my aggression out from the loop, um, is to sit down with something, um, and Try to think, I'm trying to think of how to do this because I was taught this in a, like, in a context of studying the Bible, so I'm trying to think of, like, a different way of maybe, maybe, um, studying something for school or reviewing, okay, let's pretend you have to review a document for work or whatever, Sit down and write like 30 questions about that document and you're gonna write like 10 and you're gonna be like, those are all the questions I have.
Malcolm:And if you are a teacher that says you should have been paying attention when someone asked a question. Oh, don't do that. Then just go fuck yourself. That's just horrible
Tana:practice. Okay, that was, that was a nice little thought there, Malcolm. Uh, anyway, as I was saying, um, seriously, like, try to get yourself to ask a ridiculous number of questions of something because it'll begin to make your, retrain your brain to not, because you're going to make assumptions. Yeah. And you shouldn't make assumptions. And so try to go past your assumptions. Like, well, if I didn't already know or think I knew that, you know, two plus two equals four, what would I ask here? You know? And you might, might be, well, does two, two, what is two plus two? What, what is four? What is equals? Which is like, that's like a ridiculous way of saying it. But I think, I think you get, you get what I mean. It helps you like, realize like, the questions you could be asking. Political science.
Malcolm:Political science? Not, maybe not political science. Uh, I mean just anything where you need to like, break down human thought.
Tana:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't think of anything else to say other than yeah. I just feel like I want to go on and on about the question thing, but I don't know what else to say in this moment, but I just feel like that's super, super important is to try to get past those initial blocks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Don't mock your mother. I will. I know. I'll mock you right back. I don't
Malcolm:care. Fair enough.
Tana:Plus you, Don. Anyway, well, I think that's our signal.
Malcolm:Well, bye.
Tana:Time to go.