Stephanie & Will take an unfiltered look at the emotional and psychological transitions of parenthood. They delve into the complexities of matrescence - the transformation into motherhood - plus the unique struggles fathers face. A journey filled with candid reflections and eye-opening insights, this episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the turbulent waters of raising a family.
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Stephanie & Will take an unfiltered look at the emotional and psychological transitions of parenthood. They delve into the complexities of matrescence - the transformation into motherhood - plus the unique struggles fathers face. A journey filled with candid reflections and eye-opening insights, this episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the turbulent waters of raising a family.
Exclusive offer
Head to askle.co now and use the code at the end of the episode to access a free consult & your first month's product free!
Follow us
B&B Corner Instagram
Asklé Instagram
Stephanie Instagram
Will Instagram
Get in touch
info@askle.co
I wanted to clarify my point about the zero sum game where we're misaligned. Hopefully we're gonna get some alignment. My point is that I think the vast majority of men would have have their heads cut off. If they were to put their hand up and say good morning
Unknown:good morning.
Will Slater:Good morning. Welcome to Episode 14. Wow.
Unknown:And the silly season is well and truly upon us. Having a good time already. A lot of tears rolling down my cheeks. As I say, well under my eyes. Yeah. 70
Will Slater:has a horrible habit before we start out.
Stephanie Slater:Does anyone else's husband or partner or even just housemate? Whoever it is, if they're of the male gender, from birth? Careful, just peek at themselves constantly like a gorilla. Like how the monkeys do?
Will Slater:Oh came from gorilla. So that's probably not surprising apes. But
Stephanie Slater:yeah, you just honestly before this, that's why I'm laughing. And before this we started recording we'll just like just picking and clearing and making all sorts of noises and doing all sorts of inappropriate things that I would rather he do in a bathroom. Anyway, it's just a bit you
Will Slater:to get ready for podcasts. You sit down for an hour. You can't go to the bathroom. You can't. Yeah, but nobody knows anything. You've got to be prepped. Ready to go. So now ready to go.
Unknown:All right. Ready to go. Glad to hear Welcome cleansed will.
Stephanie Slater:Oh, but anyway,
Unknown:tell you what, this silly season feels real silly at
Will Slater:just told the kids Oh, everything.
Stephanie Slater:Don't you feel like everything we've had a week. Everyone I think is having a week. I feel like we say we have a week all the time. Let's just accept that we always have a week because we're parents of little children. Starting a business. I actually woke up on the right side of the bed this morning. I felt real good.
Will Slater:Nice. Bloody James. Oh,
Stephanie Slater:I did that. I felt quite good. And then whatever. Sebastian decided to turn around. Yes. Sebastian decided to not wake up on the right side of the bed. Actually, no, he woke up really happy. Yeah. And then he just lost
Will Slater:it went downhill.
Stephanie Slater:Downhill real quick. And anyway, it takes so much energy to calm him and then you you my darling husband. You're just not great at handling irrational, illogical toddlers.
Will Slater:Oh wives.
Unknown:Oh, blows are coming in already. We're three minutes in.
Will Slater:I think Arabella and I might just he's
Stephanie Slater:such nonsense that you think that you and Arabella are simpatico that
Unknown:Italians would say wait
Will Slater:till it's such you what I was but I think about the other day. Yeah, we got out of there because you want to bash him. Buddy nightmares to be around. So we got it. We went out. Had a bath. We were having fun. We were playing. We were splashing around having a great time having a laugh. I don't know what it was one night this week. They're all blown together. And all I hear from downstairs. Oh,
Stephanie Slater:that was so funny. Actually we haven't talked about
Unknown:is you know, yes.
Will Slater:Sebastian, stop screaming. Yeah, and then Sebastian goes, Mommy are not screaming at you. And all I can hear is you to just screaming at each other.
Stephanie Slater:Can I tell you? Like, looking
Will Slater:at me I'm looking at. Yeah, we're thinking. Let's get out of here. Can I better if you and I just packed my suitcase? Oh, good luck. We go. Can I tell you what happened? I was going to Noosa maybe her an old take off to Noosa you too can to stay downstairs Can I scream at each other?
Stephanie Slater:This is going to lead in really nicely forward. This is going to lead really nicely to what we want to talk about. But as it stands, stop screaming at me as it stands right now. I have to handle all of the big emotions of Sebastian because you do not have the tolerance for it. And have say what you want. Blame me and say bashed it and I this that and the other but the reason I'm always with Sebastian is because I'm always the one that has to talk you off the ledge. So that night that was last night and I actually laughed. I was laughing because he was nonstop yelling. And he's saying I'm not yelling and I'm so calm. I was like Sebastian, you're yelling at mommy and Mommy doesn't like it. Oh, not yelling. I want this ah and that's why I said well take our Bella upstairs bath her and I will handle Sebastian and Arabella is like I live by me. And we had to make a thing so that she went out with you. So let's not be all Erbil doesn't want to borrow of you and you know men or bla bla, because that
Will Slater:is the truth of a good story. No, because
Stephanie Slater:the true or the good story makes me look like the psycho. But anyway, I do want to come back. I want to come back to the Sebastian because it was really funny. So he's yelling at me. He's tantruming. He's sucking. I was trying to get him calm. And I'm like, he's yelling at me and going, I'm not yelling. And I was laughing. And then I just got to a point where honestly, it was the sensory overload where he had been screaming at me nonstop. You were doing my head in it had been? Yes. Say you've done my head. And you've actually done my head no lot this week. You've been in a mood because of your run and can't exercise and the thought thing and you've been whatever my periods coming. It's just been a week, right? I actually said to my girlfriend yesterday, I'm like, you know, the whole saying, Not my circus, not my monkeys. Unfortunately, it's my surface. And you're all my friggin monkeys. That's how I feel. So anyway, I just lost it. And I just went, Sebastian, stop screaming at Mommy. And I like screamed at him as I said it. And then he goes, I'm not screaming, you're screaming. And I died. I was laughing. And then he's laughing. And it was just like this mess of it was inside. And
Will Slater:yeah, if you're only listening to this, you won't get to see but she just given me this look like oh,
Stephanie Slater:yeah, for sure. It was just it was so fun. Because I have not been Thank you very much. I had not been screaming. But I had this moment where I was so sick and tired of trying to become with him that I literally at in laughing was like stopped screaming at me. And he just looked at me so seriously and goes, I'm not screaming. You're screaming at me. Like what is what is happening anyway. Same kind of thing. Not the screaming part. But same kind of thing happened this morning. He was like, I don't know if he woke up in the middle of the night. What did he want you to do? Because he actually called for you and I was like, You know what? Screw these. He is calling for you. You friggin
Will Slater:go there. I was asleep and you're prodding me. I'm
Stephanie Slater:sick of being the one and then you wonder why when he goes, No, I want mommy. No, no, no, mommy, because you so if he calls you you will go. So anyway, who's calling for part? What do you want? What do you want? It is blanket or something? He's literally
Will Slater:just wanting to roll over to the side. He was rolling his rolled on his side facing one side of the court. And he's screaming.
Unknown:Yeah. Yeah.
Will Slater:And I walk in. Immediately he stops. Yeah, he goes. I want to roll to the other side. They will do to the other side. I'll put you through the other side. So I rolled him over, pulled up
Stephanie Slater:because he wanted the blanket and he couldn't get it when he
Will Slater:had the blanket. Perfect. He had the blanket perfectly on him.
Stephanie Slater:You want to roll your side in the blank wouldn't be perfect. Is that why? Anyway, toddlers, toddlers they fall on?
Will Slater:I'm gonna try and understand what he wanted. Oh, anyway,
Stephanie Slater:it's just it's I can't like now I feel like, please help
Will Slater:me roll to the other side. One I am. Yeah. Anyway,
Stephanie Slater:I just think right now, if you don't laugh, you'll cry. I think everyone is on the brink of just falling apart. And it is this time Honestly, even podcasts I listen to. Yes, here
Will Slater:we go. You're gonna want one thing that I was gonna show you last night. Would you didn't let me show?
Stephanie Slater:Oh, no, I didn't because you you carried on in the climax of a show that we're watching? Which would you like it? I did all the light. We cannot say beautiful book. Absolutely beautiful book. And then they've got a little mini series on Netflix. I really liked it. It was a climax of like war. And we'll just pause it. And you
Will Slater:said something you said exactly that, for some reason said exactly what? It's the time you know, everyone's just feeling a bit. So so add that come up.
Stephanie Slater:No, you just want to talk shop in the middle of a TV show after as I said it's been a week do you literally pause the middle thing. And then you just start scrolling your phone trying to find
Will Slater:something. And so let me explain to you what it is because you cut me off last night you don't
Stephanie Slater:cut it out or call God help anyone
Will Slater:else know exactly what I would say it's mostly the men, their wives which buttons to press and exactly what's free. And what's crazy is that you trackpad on our podcast recording device, and you have little colorful buttons and you can press them and then make noises. Like you're exactly the same. If I press a particular button, I know the exact response. I'm gonna get it. Anyway, we were already talking shop because we're doing something about we're reaching out to people. Yeah. Anyway, what do you want reaching out to people because we've obviously just launched and we're trying to let people know that we've launched and if they know anyone who might be interested in what we're doing to let us know. And I
Stephanie Slater:said I should stop. I just said I don't think it's the right time of the year. I think people are done. People are exhausted. They don't care. They just want to sort their family out get their presents done. Think about Christmas Day which is more stressful. But most people than it is joyous. And I just think that sending an email be like, Hi, we've just arrived. Do you know anyone who's interested? They're a bit like cough. And the thing I said, I think we should wait for January.
Will Slater:And that's one narrative that you could subscribe to. I'd prefer not to.
Stephanie Slater:Oh, yeah.
Will Slater:Do you know who had my letters? I don't really care costs. You don't always listen to your Yes,
Stephanie Slater:lotteries, and Milot. You don't know how he is. Anyway,
Will Slater:he talks about separation season. He says over in the US they have Thanksgiving like the end of November started December. So from Thanksgiving through to Christmas, New Year, basically everyone shuts down. Everyone, businesses, founders, employees, everyone's like, it's holiday season. Let's wrap it up. And he talks about it being separation season because it is an is an enormous opportunity for those people who want to keep working who want to push hard during that time, because there is enormous opportunity to outwork everyone else we can do different thing. No.
Stephanie Slater:One is what you're saying workout 100 said we're not shutting down. We've got so many things we have to do over the next busy period. Absolutely. We're not shutting down. No, no, no, no, no. I'm saying right now is not the right time for reach outs. I have sent we have sent so many texts, Instagram, DMS, Facebook, messenger, emails, everything, and no one is writing back. Or not no one definitely not. No, we've actually had some, a few good ones that a lot of people are like, sounds great. interested? Listen, can we talk about in the New Year, I'm shutting down. So I agree with Miles pin or whatever the hell his name is. Because we're not shutting down. This is where we move. We've got grand plans, like I'm excited. And my point to you last night was let's create something so tantalizing. But so appealing for January when people are like, reinvigorated. They've had a few days have gotten through gotten ill I hate that word. They have made it through Christmas and the silly season, the craziness and the hecticness of family that they probably don't want to see and all that kind of nonsense that comes with Christmas. out the other side through New Year, start making new year's resolutions looking to like improve their health, improve their life, make really good habits, all that kind of thing. And that's when we go, bam. Hey, we're here for you. So sorry, Mike drop done. Games hit match to Stephanie. Anyway,
Will Slater:disagree. Why why do you disagree? Anyway, doesn't matter. Yeah,
Stephanie Slater:that's exactly what you do when you can't win. But it's been a week. Let's just come back to that. It's been a week. So I think that when you came back from the race, and we obviously talked about we actually did the podcast on Monday because of the race. You have had a bit of a week of just not being your usual self I think I think you've been a bit Negative Nelly good schlock. Would you agree? Yes or no.
Will Slater:I have been more tired than usual.
Stephanie Slater:I'm gonna set and I have been irritable. You have annoyed the crap out of me. I have told you many times I'm getting my period you do in my head. I'm like, can you just back off? Can you just how funny is this side note, Arabella, I wasn't there. But you were telling me that because I was about to say just you gave me space. And apparently Arabella does irrational the other morning. But
Will Slater:she was I don't change over when he started climbing up. And she said, Sebastian, I need space. And I said to everybody use your minutes and so she said, Sebastian, I need space. Please
Stephanie Slater:say you say he's all like me, he's probably more likely where he gets all in grill all up in your space just wants cuddles and kisses anyway. And she's like, Yeah, I need space. So anyway, we've both just it's just been a bit like, chaotic. And everyone's as I said, Everyone's tired. The kids are tired. You're gonna laugh but I saw someone share thing that literally said that Mercury was in retrograde again. And it's lasting till like January. I just think it shouldn't get
Will Slater:reported excuse for not getting done what you need to get done.
Stephanie Slater:See how you take it there. It's really about not getting wasted getting things done. It's about why everyone is irritable and tend to hawks and people aren't. Yes. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Anyway, maybe I just You frustrate me to know in my scenario me
Will Slater:to say to that. Well, I
Stephanie Slater:did. Okay, I'll just have a monologue. So anyway. Do you want to have a conversation
Will Slater:we agree on things doesn't mean that I have to frustrate you.
Stephanie Slater:What are we disagreeing on? A waste of rhetoric? No, because you said it shouldn't be an excuse for not working. You said who said that people aren't working or working
Will Slater:or not. But a lot of people use that as an excuse like, oh, the mercury and Mercury is in red. To read everything, so don't worry about it. Well, it's
Stephanie Slater:just sometimes when you look around and everyone seems to be crazy, it's like maybe something's going on with the planets. Maybe
Will Slater:I love you, darling.
Stephanie Slater:Anyway, based on all of this, we had a conversation Tuesday now you've just really
Will Slater:stay with me, man. I don't need to do anything I want to, despite the week that we had a took you out for a beautiful dinner on Tuesday night. Till very nice Japanese restaurant that you've been wanting to go to for a long time since it opened. Wasn't that guy? Was it such an asshole? Well,
Stephanie Slater:I mean, yeah, you actually said, I don't think I want to deal with the kids. So do want to go out for dinner. So I don't really think it's because you had spent the day apart because you had an ego thing. And so we hadn't worked. But anyway, sure. You wanted to take me out for dinner?
Will Slater:I did. I've been planning it for weeks. And it wasn't that yeah, I was
Stephanie Slater:so disappointed. It's a new Japanese restaurant that opened up in Armadale.
Will Slater:It was okay. It just wasn't well, I think it's just
Stephanie Slater:pricey for what you get like it was wasn't like this bomb of bomb like a flavors. Anyway, we had a very interesting conversation because, yeah, why? I kind of remember I
Will Slater:got a bit of a mood. And I was intrigued as to why. So I created the space. Oh, you're feeling that you Kristen, we had a great conversation.
Unknown:You want to share part of what it was so annoying?
Stephanie Slater:Yeah, we had a conversation about I don't remember all of it. It was just about I guess, our needs and coming off the back of you being away. And then some of your expectations, though, not overt. What I feel the pressure of that. And I think it just made me think about when you become a mum how? Yeah, I guess you kind of I don't even know if that's what we were saying that night, but how you are a bit forgotten. And it's just not the journey that you've been through and are still on, I don't think is truly appreciated or respected. Because you're just expected to do it. I think although talking about on Tuesday night is that I feel like I am just just keeping my head above water. And I think there have been a lot of experiences that I've gone through that have been put to the side and forgotten about because mums are just expected to get on and do. And for me a pivotal moment of that was when I went to an event on Friday to support a beautiful woman in the female founders circle who is launching or relaunching rebranding her. It's called ever form therapy where and its support. We're all women with you know whether it's incontinence or prolapse and things like that. So it's compression garments and supportive way. medical grade anyway, she had this incredible speaker her name be she's from call and Floor Restore. I think that's her Instagram. And she did this meditation thing. And so this like guided meditation, at first I was really I had so much on my mind, I just wasn't connecting, we'll have to close our eyes. We had, you know, she talked about, okay, come into your brain. And you know what thoughts are coming up. And if you go into like problem solving, you're probably in your prefrontal, let's try and move it into this part of the brain where we have feelings. Then she moved to the heart, and then she moved to the womb. And I just I wasn't connecting, I wasn't connecting. And then when she got to the room, and she said all this stuff about just I guess, connecting with her and then talking about pregnancy, pregnancy loss. And I just started absolutely bawling my eyes out. bawling could not control myself. I was like, What is going on and all this stuff just like this resurgence of emotions around the two miscarriages. And I guess, you know, four pregnancies in like three and a half years that it's been since the Russian the hormone like everything, everything just came flooding out. And I could not control myself. I was biting my tongue biting my cheek and trying to walk to the back room, go the bathroom come back. I ended up having to leave and she finished her her talk and then I think the founder. And then I saw B and I said, Thank you. That was incredible. I'm so sorry. I'm a blubbering mess. And she was like, Can I hug you? And I was like, Yes. And I had a big hug and then she was like, are you okay? And anyway, I'm going to try and connect with her. I'd love for her to be on a podcast but I just had this moment of going shit. Maybe I'm not okay, maybe you all the things that I think I've coped with and I have moved on from I actually haven't, and I keep trying to keep my head above water. But I think like probably most mums, you know, the duck analogy and the law legs going underneath. But I said to you Tuesday night, I feel like I'm skating on thin ice literally. Like, I feel like I have this very thin film of ice that's keeping me above and I'm looking like I'm coping, and I'm skating along really nicely. But the water underneath is tumultuous, it's like, if anything breaks, I'm just gonna get sucked right under. And then I wanted to talk about this idea of matrices, which we can talk about in a minute. But that's where I'm at right now. And I don't know that you always can, well, you can't recognize it. But I think sometimes when then you have an expectation of me to be a certain way or whatever, I just think, do you realize how much I am doing and holding and, for example, this morning, holding the load of Sebastian and trying to handle him and keep my call and keep my emotions regulated, and then you're in a mood and you're shady, because I said, Yes, we'll quickly go back downstairs to the car to get some smoothie and you think I'm giving in to him, like, I've just handled a tantrum at home, I've just handled a tantrum in childcare, he's screaming his head off. Like, let's just do this one little thing that's going to calm him and set him up for it. Hopefully, a calmer day. I'm
Will Slater:not gonna say that. I understand that because I clearly don't. And I've not been in your shoes, and I can't empathize with it, but I certainly can sympathize with it. And we also met yesterday with a leading psychotherapist, who is just what I say, psychotherapist.
Stephanie Slater:I don't know what a psychotherapist is that I think, like, as in Freud, and I don't know, anyway, psychiatrists, yeah, psychiatrist.
Will Slater:And he, interestingly enough, predominantly works with men, young men, husbands, young fathers. And he said that one of the most important things that we can do is to support the dad to love the mom. Because if there's a strong marriage, kids will never need a psychologist in their life.
Stephanie Slater:Kids will never have to go and hit their kids will never have to go and see him like they are.
Will Slater:So that nucleus of the families, almost the most important thing that we could possibly do, is to protect that. He actually said the number one thing we can do for kids is to support mums and their families. So as a husband, what is it that we can do to support in those moments? Yeah,
Stephanie Slater:big question. Love them. Um, as he said,
Will Slater:What does that look like? Because I think we are speaking on behalf of myself, but maybe some others I think we try.
Stephanie Slater:Yeah, I think that the that's why I do want to talk about this idea of matriculants. Because I just don't think that well, even moms don't know about this. But if you don't know muttrah essence is literally the idea of adolescence. So it was coined by an anthropologist back in 19. So I do have notes because I wanted to share this Yeah, 1970s 1973 Dana or Donna Dana rafail. And she actually is the one that came up with the idea of a doula. But then she coined the term retracements, because of the huge transition that occurs from being an individual, a woman to a mother. And the changes that come with that transition are the same, if not bigger than what happens in adolescence. And if you think about an adolescent going through puberty, they are moody, irritable, they're going through growth spurts. They're trying to find their identity where they fit in the world, who are my people? What do I do? How do I make decisions, like you think about a teenager and how intense that period is, that is what mothers go through. And the thing is, they go through that every single time they are pregnant, have a full term pregnancy. So you go through this mattresses where you have massive physiological, biological, emotional changes, including huge hormone fluctuations, physical changes in like your body and you know, ribs moving and muscles moving and your baby growing inside of you, you have these cardiovascular changes with your heart and the blood flow to your heart because it's going to the fetus and all that kind of thing. So there's these huge changes. And then after baby the drops in hormone after so birth, the drops in hormone, everything like that. And all of this is happening, and you're trying to uncover who you are, and then navigate this new version of yourself and where you fit in the world as a mum. And then if you fall pregnant again, that all happens again. So you go through puberty, essentially, again, and then you have all the hormone changes, all these kind of things. So even I was I asked her GBT to compare adolescence and mature essence, and it's insane. So in pregnancy or during retracements, from womanhood to motherhood, you have these hormonal changes. So estrogen and progesterone are progesterone levels rise dramatically and then rapidly drop after delivery. So you have this intense high and then this intense low like this complete drop, increase in blood volume during pregnancy, which puts additional strain on the heart, muscular skeletal changes, obviously, because you've got a growing fetus, and so then your tummy expands, but then it has to contract back into place after birth. You have, obviously your weight gain, and then your metabolism and then breastfeeding. If you choose to breastfeed, there's huge changes with that. There's immune system, adjustments, reproductive system, adjustments, skin and hair changes. So you think about a teenager who's getting pimples and then their self esteem goes down, mother's experience, all these changes their skin, their hair loss suddenly, in pregnancy to have beautiful volume and his hair. And then after pregnancy, it's all falling out, which is normal. And they have these like, I have the spiky little demon hairs that go at the top because he has broken and regrowing and all that kind of thing. Gastrointestinal changes, like this is all happening. And then it happens again and again and again, every time you fall pregnant. And then people wonder men husbands wonder why she seems a bit irritable, or she's no different. Or all she COVID All she just had a mountain Damn straight we did. Yeah, 100% because not only were we trying to deal with everything internally, we're also trying to hold the emotions and regulate the emotions of our household. So that's what's going on.
Will Slater:And I appreciate all that. I don't think that we wonder why. I don't think that's true. We don't I just don't think we know what to do with it. We have no idea how to deal with it. All of those changes that are occurring. As you've said, significant, and the list is long, very massive changes. You think of a parent who's got a teenager? They don't know what the fuck to do with them. No idea. And what does every parent who's got a teenager say? Would the woman say yesterday?
Stephanie Slater:It's hard. No,
Will Slater:she called herself. She's like the evil Odyssey say?
Stephanie Slater:Yeah, like the witch? No, yeah, whatever it was, Dr. Evil.
Will Slater:She's like Dr. Evil, she's the worst person you could possibly imagine. So that's her saying, I've got a daughter who's going through teenagehood going through puberty. I don't know what the hell to do about it. But I'm the worst person in the world all of a sudden, so enjoy your time with the young kids. Because she
Stephanie Slater:also, it's almost like a self fulfilling prophecy where she then turns into the worst person because, of
Will Slater:course, so how is it any different to a husband or a father who is trying to support their wife who is first and foremost male, so mostly thick and stupid, and makes bad decisions, at the best of times, doesn't have the intuition or understanding to be able to deal with all of those changes. And he's sitting back, watching all of this go on wanting in most cases, of course, there's some assholes out there who probably don't want or don't care to help. But I would say the vast majority who are wanting to help, but who absolutely lack the skill set or the understanding to know what the hell to do about it.
Stephanie Slater:So whose responsibility is that then to? So is that another thing the woman has to do?
Will Slater:Did she say some stability at all, but I'm saying I'm just all I'm suggesting is that those changes that you've said, in? I can I can only imagine how challenging that would be? I can't imagine how to help them. Well, maybe I could. I've been through puberty I've been through teenagehood that was the hardest period of my life. Barna depression said in my teenage was awful. My parents, I mean, thank God, I've got such good parents that they stuck with me for as long as they did, most sane normal people wouldn't have they would cut me loose and said, You are going nowhere, you have no hope to see later. And they would have been within their right to do so. So I can, at some level, appreciate what that's like. Yeah, I guess you just don't have dependents. But yes, of course. So I'm not saying I know exactly what it feels like. But I have some level of awareness and some level of understanding. And anyone who's gone through puberty does, which is everyone. What the hell do we do with it? It's not on you to tell us what to do with it. But
Stephanie Slater:you often say to me, tell me what to do. Or tell me what you need? Or tell me whatever. I
Will Slater:probably don't know what else to ask.
Stephanie Slater:I know, but I think it's just challenging when we don't know. Like, even that Tuesday night, you were, you know, and I actually said to you, I don't know how to express what's got I just feel like it's a lot at the moment. I feel like I am about to crack. I feel like so for example, in a moment like this more, I'm not happy. It's just irrelevant. And it happened this morning. It is what it is when we're up in childcare and Sebastian's had the morning and been the way he is and I've had to come and get him in the car and then get him in. And then I think, okay, I make a decision that moment that he wants a smoothie, it's just out in the car. It's nutritious food. Yes, it means you have to go back down the stairs to the car having a few sips come back up. But is that a decision that's actually going to set us up for a good day? And you were so frustrated that I had done that? It was like I know it was I'm giving in and doing other things even I'd stayed strong with the TV thing I had, like they would, I made choices. I picked my battles I didn't give into the TV. I didn't give into whatever. But I gave into the smoothie because it's like, well, it's actually a healthy thing. And whatever, what I guess I need in that moment is for you to recognize that I'm doing the best I can. And so hey, I'll just support you, if you believe this decision is what's best for him right now. I will support you in that. Like, that's just one little example. I think even I'm like, do I go there? Or do I not go there? Because our family was? No, but it's like, even when it comes to intimacy, I'm not going to fully go there, Mom, don't worry. And friends.
Unknown:My girlfriend, and I talk about Catholic school girl guilt, because it's like, we're so scared to talk about sex.
Stephanie Slater:But I'll use the word intimacy, though, because I feel more comfortable that and just baby steps. But even with intimacy, it's like you come off the back of being away for five days. And, and yes, because your love language is physical touch. And it's like, that's how I want to connect with you. I'm like, back the fudge up, give me some space, show me some gears love me in a non intimate way. Like, let's cuddle, let's have nice small kisses. Let's hold hands that sit on the couch next to each other. Let's just reconnect before we dive into that, because I'm just not there. And I'm telling you that I'm feeling very overwhelmed, very touched out, very exhausted in so many ways. And then I feel like I have this added pressure of a husband that needs that. And then I'm like, Dude, I can't keep giving everything to everyone, like it needs to just, you know, so then when I have a moment of this morning that you shouldn't, but I'm like, you know, if everyone like I just need a break, give me some other analysis can give me some space, please. That's what I feel like I need. So I don't always have the answers for you. Many women, wives partners, will not have the answers or know how to express themselves and what they're feeling. But the fact is, they are going through a huge, huge, physical, mental, emotional transition that needs love, and grace and space, to not have answers to not always know how to be. And as a mother psychiatrists said, support the dad to love the mum. So you seek support where you need it, because we're still also supporting you in a lot of ways. And
Will Slater:I'm understanding of all of that. My point to all of that is to maybe have some awareness back the other way that it's not always that easy. It's just not, it's not always that easy. To any parent with a teenager and say, all you need to do is you need to love them, you need to care for them. And they'll be going, oh, yeah, I get that. But they're a fucking asshole. Sometimes. That's,
Stephanie Slater:we're not, I'm not an asshole to know.
Will Slater:But it is goddamn challenging. Sometimes it is, as is your mood,
Stephanie Slater:no doubt. So that's I mean, it's not like,
Will Slater:I'm not saying love me and care for me and support me the whole time. What?
Unknown:Really? What did you literally say to me? A day or two ago?
Stephanie Slater:Can you just love moves? I'm like, Oh, my God, I have been looking after you with your broken foot.
Will Slater:The point is, what is the point? The point is, well, no, no, no, no, no, I'm not asking for all the sympathy. I'm not asking for all the sympathy because I'm not in any way shape, or form, trying to make the point that I have it worse than you, or that I even have an equal to you. Not at all. All I'm asking for is just a sliver. A slither of understanding that from the male, the husband standpoint, trying to support their wife, the mother of their child who is going through all of that, it is not always that easy. And on top of that, we don't have anywhere near the skill set required to be able to manage it.
Stephanie Slater:So then what what do you do about that? Because I really don't know. Because when
Will Slater:I mean, good buddy question. I've been going and seeing a psychologist, we've been going and seeing a couples therapist together. I've been trying,
Stephanie Slater:yeah, the psychologist, so probably twice, but I think that's four or
Will Slater:five times, and then we went and saw the therapist. And so I'm actively trying to work on things, I'm trying to improve my communication, I'm trying to improve my ability to sit with emotions. You know, on top of that, we've also got an anyone going through this also will have young children that are not always that easy, and relatively stressful. They probably also had a period of their career or their business or whatever it might be. That's also relatively stressful. So I'm not trying to say Woe is me. Are we all going through that? Yeah, let's all you know, feel sorry for the husbands at all. All I'm trying to make the point is that they don't have the skills. I don't have the skills. So we're trying to manage this enormous change that's going on for you without any textbook or understanding of how to do it. So of course we're going to get it wrong. The vast majority of the time, if we get it right a few times, that should be like, well, wonderful, because we're probably going to get wrong all the time, because we don't know what the hell we're doing. I mean, men just don't know what the hell we're doing most of the time with anything, let alone with this. So I don't know what the answer is. I do not know what the answer is. But I assure a shit, no men don't possess the skill sets required to manage it. And my point to you the other day is, you know, what do you need during that time? I'm trying to understand that is not to put the responsibility or the onus on you. But he's trying to get you to understand that if you don't know exactly what you need, I don't know how to deliver on it. Yeah, but I think as far as trying to figure it out together,
Stephanie Slater:yeah. Yes, I agree. And I dropped all year, right, that was not a game set much. I agree with you, I absolutely do agree with you that it's not easy being on the other side of it being the one that has to support the person who is whatever like struggle, you want to call it struggling or just going through that period. Because that's just relationships, like we have those moments, you have down days, weeks that I lift you up, and I have down days and weeks that you lift me
Will Slater:slightly more than just a relationship management thing. It's a true essence, as you said, it is equivalent to going through puberty every time you have a child. Yeah. And so it is significantly greater than just any sort of, you know, relationship challenge that we might have had three kids,
Stephanie Slater:I'm trying to give you kudos in that. Yes, I can appreciate that it would be challenging for you.
Will Slater:Okay. Thank you very clear.
Stephanie Slater:And I was going to say before you cut me off, that that's why we were talking to psychiatrists yesterday, because his whole focus is around men's mental health, and primarily dads, and what he has seen with dads. And so we know, with ask Les and what we want to do is we want to create a real community where dads are supported, because we know that if we can support the partner of the woman who has given birth, then the family as a whole will be well. And so
Will Slater:the husband's sure she's not going to be able to do it. If he's crumbling. Oh,
Stephanie Slater:yeah. And so I think a lot of a lot of men don't know where to turn, what to say how, as you said, and there needs to be more resources out there and more information out there a on Moto lessons, because we need to understand just how significant it is that you know, what women are going through, mothers are going through and the changes and it's intense. And it's it's out of our control a lot of what goes on hormonally and emotionally and all that kind of thing. B is that with that going on? Then how do you support that? And so what can you do as a father as a husband to to support the family dynamic, and not making it a taboo topic that we actually are open about talking about the struggles that men have in how they fit in with the family and how they might struggle to support their partner, in a situation where women don't always know how to articulate what it is that they need? Because I think that is an issue a lot of moms don't know. I mean, it's just it's the age old like so many moms will agree with this and say this, it's I miss my kids. I'm desperate for them. Oh my god, oh, my god, five minutes into your childcare pick up? Oh, my God, they're driving me nuts. We do it all the time. We put them in bed. Well, I thank God. And the next minute, we're like, oh, look at these photos. And then how cute are they? Right? So yeah, we don't know, we need sometimes we say we want space within I don't want space on I want family time. I don't want to be away from Oh, I just need this. Oh, no, but I don't want it like we don't know, because our overarching
Will Slater:rule men are probably a lot better at that costume.
Stephanie Slater:Yeah, because women, it's hot out outside of our body. Our children are literally that
Will Slater:for sure. But I think controlling what we can control, I think it has to start with some level of awareness at home between the two people, the husband and the wife, the mother and the father, to have a dialogue where they both have a level of understanding that, yes, it's bloody hard for you. And it's bloody hard for me to. And both of them are trying to figure it out. And I just we've spoken about this with a few other topics, you know, gender equality being one of them. I just don't subscribe to this sort of binary, you know, zero sum game that often is perpetuated as a narrative that it's hard for the mums or it can't be hard for the dead
Stephanie Slater:or saying that that's not what this conversation has been at all.
Will Slater:No, not this conversation. But I think that happens a lot. I think a lot of men would be feeling like they can't, in any way, shape or form feel like it's slightly challenging for them because it is enormously challenging for their wife. That massive assumption, but I would sense that that might be the case. And so I think a conversation at home between the two to just have some kindness and In some awareness, and not that we're, as the men trying to make it out, like, it's so much harder for us because it's not, there is no, no one alive, who would make a case that going through parenthood and rearing children is, in any way shape, or form hard or even close to equal to that of which the mother goes through. No one on Earth would make that case. So it's not about being equal to or harder than it's just to say, yeah, I get it, you're going through some really hard shit. And I'm trying to support you. But it's hard. It's not always easy for me either. And I think just that acknowledgement, and understanding between two people can at least start things moving in the right direction. Because, as I said, we don't have the skills, we don't have the knowledge. We don't know what to do with it all. And I think most of us try our best. I certainly try my best. And it's not always good enough, but it's not always easy to know. And so, yeah, I really don't know what the solution is. But I think starting with being kind to one another is, is a good place to begin.
Stephanie Slater:Yes, I agree.
Will Slater:Look forward to some kindness. I'm sensing that your feelings still a bit misaligned with what I'm saying?
Stephanie Slater:No, I'm not misaligned at all. I think you're the one that keeps bringing up this idea of no sum, whatever you just you and your words, what do you say no zero sum sum Zero game. What's your deal? Why? The no sum game? Now there are some whatever that I'm saying you keep bringing out and I'm not saying that? No, but no one that's not what the conversation is. It's not about who has it harder. Because you can never compare someone's challenges with another person's challenges. Man, woman, child adult like Sebastian's feelings this morning are as valid as my feelings like he's going through his stuff. So I don't it's not about that. So that's probably what I'm misaligned, on with what you're saying, because you keep bringing that up. But that's not what I believe. The point is, I think the crux of what we're saying, which I think we are aligned on and we do agree with agree on, is the idea that being aware of each other's journey and transition into parenthood is really important. And I think talking about things like my presence, and understanding how intense and out of control, a process that is for women is really important, because I don't believe you say are all men at all? I actually don't believe that. I think that a lot of men. Just think it is normal, natural process. You pregnant, you grow baby, you have a baby, you become a mum. I think a lot of mums think that. I mean, it's kind of you can liken it to breastfeeding, and then I'll just breastfeed.
Will Slater:I agree. I don't think a lot of men would be aware of the term maturity. But even that entails. Yeah.
Stephanie Slater:I mean, so even even what it means to have that baby and then to bring that baby into the world, and then to raise that baby, whilst all this stuff is going on in you. Like, it's big. And so understanding from the partners point of view, in Wow, okay, that's what's happening right now, hormonally, this is what's happening. Oh, my gosh, like when we told her that period chat, and you're you are so good at understanding, that's your hormones that's external to you, you have no control over that, like not many men can do that. So I do believe that you are an exception to the rule, I truly believe that. And on the flip side is again, awareness of how Yeah, the man is or the other partner is lost and doesn't know how to support these huge changes, and also doesn't know how they fit into the family dynamic, and also doesn't know how to connect with the child, and so feels lost in their identity. And so both are going through identity changes. In a way I do think now I am doing this zero sum game thing. But I do think that the identity shift is much more exaggerated in the mother, no doubt. But I bet there's still stuff that's going on with the man. So I absolutely think I've left
Will Slater:on my point on Wait.
Stephanie Slater:That we but I think the learning in this is that we need to create space for men to open up a and realize this is what's going on with your partner. You need to appreciate that respect that understood, you actually need to understand that like from a learning point of view, you need to understand what's going on biologically for her and mentally. So that's the first part, then how do you get support? It's okay to say you're not coping, it's okay to say, I don't know how to handle the moments when my wife does this, or my partner does this and she goes like that, and then she explodes at me and I don't know, like it's okay to say that. And then the next step or the final step is where are the resources? Where are the support systems in place, and there are a few things but not enough. And so that's why we talk to the psychiatrist who deals with men and fathers, because what can we provide men to say that they feel why If they can stand on solid ground for their family, for the family to be, and it's not all on the man, because that seems unfair also, but because I think they do have to play that role in those early few years of creating that family. I think the man does have to play that role of supporting. Yeah,
Will Slater:no doubt, I loved. I love what he said. He was basically making the case that the most important thing that we have to do, as a society, and especially in the medical field is to support the dead to love them. Yeah, if that is achieved, most of our issues are gone. You don't have kids growing up in single family homes, you don't have kids who are, you know, psychologically challenged as they grow up? Because they have, well,
Stephanie Slater:hopefully, they won't be exposed to trauma, because they're not going to be fighting that constant confrontation. And yeah, so all
Will Slater:of these long list of challenges could be resolved, if we support the dead to love them. I just think that's, I thought that was beautiful. And I really agree with that. And it's helping me get some clarity and understanding of what my purpose and role is, you know, obviously at home, but especially with what we're doing workwise as well.
Stephanie Slater:Even when he said it hit a nerve, I felt myself getting so teary straightaway. I feel at the moment, this is what I'm trying to say to you any like bawled my eyes out at this public event. Whatever happens, I started crying. He says that line, and I could feel his tears welling, I just again, that analogy of the thin ice that I'm skating on, and the tumultuous audit tomatoes, water underneath, that's where I'm at. I can just like that, I probably just need to sit and cry for like a day. David talks, no cry for a day and then maybe go and have a massage and a beautiful dinner.
Will Slater:You're taking this as a quick side note, we've made an agreement for our birthdays, which are both in January. Yeah, that we're going to have two nights three days away. Yeah, solo on our own. Yes. So you go on, take your three days to cry and do my time
Unknown:away just crying. I need to do that before that. So
Stephanie Slater:I actually have a good time. To clarify
Will Slater:my point about the zero sum game where we're misaligned, hopefully, we're gonna get some alignment. My point is that I think the vast majority of men would had have their heads cut off. If they were to put their hand up and say, at home, it's a bit hard for me to I don't think that the vast majority of men have the ability to do that at home, because there is a lack of communication and understanding between the two parties. And I'm trying to give a voice to that at the risk of ostracizing your entire audience. But I'm trying to give voice to that because it is a little bit hard for them to not harder, not equal to, but it is hard for them to. And I think we have to start with them being able to acknowledge that surely. Okay. Yeah. It's tough for me to That's my point. That's why it's not a zero sum game. Just because it's hard for one doesn't mean that the other can't have it a little bit tough as well.
Stephanie Slater:Yeah, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And I think that it's probably that resentment that comes up but you didn't have for you. You didn't just said cut the hill. I hear. Yes. I hear what you're saying. I
Will Slater:usually cut my head off looked at his camera then.
Stephanie Slater:And what do you mean? Then? I'm just showing the thing again, to annoy me the button pressing. Tell
Will Slater:me when I said that. There wasn't this sense of like, oh, no,
Stephanie Slater:no, honestly, honestly, there wasn't. I was I was really thinking about what you're saying. I'm processing and yeah, understanding and going. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I get what you're saying. Because I think I think it stems from the fact that once baby's born your day to day looks, looks the same in that you can if you were running a marathon yesterday you could still run that marathon tomorrow a woman just spent nine months carrying has to try to get that like I don't even for me it's like I had to get my exercise back my fitness back my body looked one way and then I was not trying to get it back. I really hate the idea of bounce back and look at like you did and all that kind of thing but you know your body looks different than like I would say I'm pretty fit now but my tummy is still like it's wrinkly. You know it's got this loose skin that looks just it's never going to be taught like it used to be you know, I had I had a flat tummy and it's flat ish, but it's a bit saggy. You know, it's got that mum look that well. It's held to babies it's stretched the skinny stretch. So
Will Slater:fail to realize is that that carries far more beauty in it than it did beforehand. Because beautiful
Stephanie Slater:that you say that but I think a lot of women, you know, it's the narrative of like, Oh, they're my well they got like my warrior root wounds or my warrior scars or whatever that you know, like my C section like I had lazy yesterday. The woman was talking about my C section scar. And I was like, oh, yeah, two babies. Elba. Yep, that's, you know. So I guess my point of all of this is I absolutely hear what you're saying. And why do we get upset? Because then I think we just all these things come up with like, Yeah, but your stomach looks the same and you can still run and you don't pee when you run and you haven't had this in your boob? Like, I have no boobs anymore. Do you think that it's not competitive? I don't think that's, that's fair. I don't think it's competitive. It's just a natural instinct to feel hard done by when you have given up so much of your body, it feels hard to say, Yeah, it's hard for you. That's not right. I'm not saying it's right. It's just that's where it stems from. Because it's like, I looked down at my body, and my body doesn't look like that you still look like, and that's not because of age. That's my boobs have been sucked the life out of my stomach has been stretched to the nth degree. I have a scar on my body I used to never have I just look different. And I always will. This is now my body that I have to live in and accept and love. I have to learn to love it. And I'm getting there. So it's hard, I guess. Again, not right. Just hard in that. You have to work on that. And you have to sit you have to do exactly what you said the zero sum game now we have it. But I'm saying no, we're totally Well, I guess no, but I guess it's it's like almost compartmentalizing and saying, there's your feeling and your emotion. Let's put that here. Because we're not going to diminish it, we're not going to, you know, say that it's not fair or valid. And we're actually not even going to compare that's going to sit over there. And let's just let's just put that away for a moment. And let's open this door and deal with this thing. And I think that that's probably something I also have to learn to do. Because
Unknown:yeah, so yeah, whatever.
Will Slater:I hear what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, you might be right. We might be aligned.
Stephanie Slater:Yeah, sure.
Will Slater:That's a Mic drop.
Unknown:We've got one I got one.
Will Slater:One earlier one, I can't remember. A couple motion. And
Stephanie Slater:anyway, it's been a long chat, but we've had a bit of a Barney in between. So hopefully, that's
Will Slater:an important discussion. And I think the value in us doing what we're doing here and I will continue to play my role as you will continue to play yours is to give both sides perspectives from both sides. Because I think that is critical to improving the narrative and in helping people manage it.
Stephanie Slater:Oh, the fact is if we want women to feel supported, we have to give space for the man to get better to then support the woman so selfishly if we want the loving care and Ella things that we're we're fighting for and advocating for for women. We've got to do this for men. So
Will Slater:the quote doesn't say support the dead to feel good about himself. Support the dead to get to the pub with his mates. Support the dad so that he's happy. Yes, as support the dad to love them. So you are still at the center of it. Rightfully so. Should be well not disputing that.
Stephanie Slater:Oh my god don't get all antsy. Yes, agreed.
Will Slater:Brought up right. Oh
Stephanie Slater:heavy, heavy conversations. What are our sites the silly season everyone's losing their mind a bit.
Unknown:You're pissing me off. Oh, Merry Christmas. No. Is
Stephanie Slater:this the last one? No,
Will Slater:we will be recording next week but it won't come out until Boxing Day. So this will be our last pre published episode pre Christmas.
Stephanie Slater:Are we gonna have some time off?
Will Slater:No fan podcast? What
Stephanie Slater:are we gonna do when we're in law enforcement tape recording
Will Slater:configured?
Stephanie Slater:Microphone. The audio might not be as good anyway.
Will Slater:We should do we can take it up. Well, this is called the BNB corner.
Stephanie Slater:Oh god do alive we're still alive as I know is in the BMV corner.
Will Slater:It does bring it tonight in from the beer and bullshit calm down at the angles in line. So next week, we'll record in Melbourne. We're releasing Boxing Day. And the next episode. Release will be recorded by og b2b corner and be kind enough to try and be funny. I'm still a member there I can now make it happen for us. Anyway.
Stephanie Slater:Merry merry Merry Christmas. We'll be happy new year also. Okay, Merry Merry Christmas. If you don't celebrate Christmas Merry merry festivities this season. Loves You all keep calm and the craziness of life. Thanks
Will Slater:for tuning in. Stay well. Stay well. Bye bye