22 - Dr Chris Corcos - Integrative Psychiatrist

In today's episode we speak with Dr Chris Corcos, an Integrative Psychiatrist from the National Institute of Integrative Medicine (NIIM).

If there's a better way to manage our health than simply suppressing symptoms, obviously we would want to know what it is. Just how impactful can simple dietary and lifestyle changes be to our overall wellbeing? Dr Chis helps his patients with this every day.

Expect to learn the difference between integrative and general medicine practices, how the culture around pharmaceuticals is affecting our social health outcomes, how the history of medicine impacts our current system, the risks associated with over the counter medicine and why 'supporting the dad to love the mum' is such an important task in the wellbeing of our children.

Links:

Dr Ian Brighthope - World of Wellness

Dr Leila Masson - Integrative Paediatrician

John Gray - Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus

Martha Beck - How to love more by caring less

Byron Katie - The Work 

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Transcript

Stephanie Slater: 0:00

Hey listeners before we jump into today's episode of the b&b corner, a quick shout out to our startup ask Lee. If you're a mom looking for personalised nutrition that fits into your busy life, is it escalade.co Today, and stay tuned until the end for an exclusive offer just for our listeners. Hello,

Will Slater: 0:16

and welcome to the b&b corner. We have a very exciting episode for you today with Dr. Chris caucus, an integrative psychiatrist at the National Institute of Integrative Medicine. On this episode, you can expect to learn the difference between integrative and general medicine. How the culture around Pharmaceuticals is affecting our social health outcomes. How the history of medicine impacts our current system, the risks associated with over the counter medicine, and why supporting the dad to love the mum is such an important task in the well being of our children. This was a fascinating conversation with Dr. Chris, because he covered some topics that we've never heard or discussed before.

Unknown: 1:00

A psychiatrist is a medical doctor and medical specialist. And a psychologist is a talking therapist, not a medical doctor, so the psychologist can through meeting with you and talking with you and hearing your story can understand the nature of the difficulties that might be keeping tripping you up and can explore that with you in the therapeutic space. They cannot prescribe medications or order blood tests. The psychiatrist can as a doctor can also look at the physical things that might be affecting your emotions and your psychology, they tend to focus on the physical side the pharmaceutical side if you like or physical treatments, not just medications, but also electric convulsive therapy, transcranial magnetic stimulation, there's a whole lot of new physical brains apps that are being used now. So the psychiatrist can do that and tends to focus on that. There are some psychiatrists, like myself who have trained in the psychoanalytic psychotherapies. And who do practice in that way as well. So that tends to be how I practice now, I don't restrict my practice to psychotherapy, there are some psychiatrists who only do psychotherapy. There's some excellent colleagues who work with families through family therapy, and some other colleagues who who only do take on people for long term psychotherapy. But I tend to use my psychoanalytic and psychodynamic understandings of people, which is really an understanding of child development and trauma and how that can affect the person's emotional state as adults, so I tend to use that and talk with the person on that level, as well as having a look at the the physical things that could be causing low mood or anxiety, you know, psychotic illness. So, so, that's, that's called integrative medicine, where where you bring together all disciplines relevant to the health of the person, and and you're looking for root causes of the person's symptoms. That's called integrative medicine. And I think it's good if, if people research that for themselves, how is an integrative Doctor different from a mainstream, often called allopathic doctor? I think it's really worthwhile just investigating that for yourself and finding out the difference

Will Slater: 3:52

for someone who's hearing the term integrative medicine for the first time. Is there a simple and easy way that you could describe what that is?

Unknown: 4:02

Well, the integrative GPS, they look at things which mainstream GPS would not look at, particularly these trauma issues. I'm talking about psychological patterns and habits. One of my GP colleagues at NIMH. Peter Holtzman is absolutely brilliant at EMDR. That's one of the energy psychologies eye movement, desensitisation and reprocessing, for people who find themselves constantly tripped up and thrown back into an acute stress state because they've had some trauma in the past from somewhere very effective new ways of working with folks. Peter's got that in his tool toolbox. And the integrative GPS look at nutritional stuff they do blood tests, which mainstream GPS would not do. They look at your vitamin D level. Other vitamin levels that they look to see different things they can identify from the blood tests. And sometimes those blood tests when doctors are told not to do them because Medicare can't afford it. For example, vitamin D, that used to be Medicare funded that that was stopped a couple of years ago, and doctors who continue to order vitamin D can get into trouble for that. So the integrative doctor does does all those other things, the nutritional side, the emotional and psychological side, and just the medical physical side. So they will check everything, a lot of them do stool analysis, also to have a look at your, your gut microbiome. So that's called integrative because they are integrating their medical training, which they all have just as good as any other GP with other aspects that have relevance to the person's health. So that they're, they're included, they're integrated, as opposed to the mainstream allopathic GP is really quite tightly regulated. As I've suggested, with the vitamin D test, there's quite a few things that are not cost effective for the mainstream GP to do in terms of investigations. And most of them do not have, for example, these energy psychology tools, or psychotherapeutic tools, they would refer the person to a psychologist. That's integrative, and allopathic, GPS, allopathic actually means suppressing the symptom. So for decades, that has been the medical training, get rid of the symptom that underlies medical mainstream medical practice today, rather than what the integrative doctor does, is really look for the cause. And the doctor may not find that causing the human body and especially the brain is incredibly complex. But we, we can look for some fairly basic things. And very often that throws up a band or obvious cause so so that is the difference. And in psychiatry, mainstream psychiatrists really do focus on making a diagnosis out of the manual, with a little number, the DSM, and then going to the physical treatments, they may do some supportive sort of psychotherapy, but most of them do not do psychotherapy, really with the patients. Most of them work with pharmaceuticals more or less exclusively, and the other physical treatments that I've talked about. So that's the, the mainstream allopathic doctor and psychiatrist versus the integrative doctor, an integrative psychiatrist,

Stephanie Slater: 8:04

I think, yeah, that was a really thorough and an excellent, obviously explanation of it. I always think of integrative as quite like multimodal and holistic, exactly. And it gives that whole picture. And I really appreciate what you said about allopathic doctors suppressing the symptoms, because I feel that I myself has had have had a personal experience with that in when I went and saw a mainstream GP who diagnosed me with postnatal depression. And then I was told to take antidepressants, and there was no digging into the causes of what is actually going on. No blood test referrals. No, no care to understand what was happening in my body and mind. Again, it was not holistic, it was not, there was no root cause. Yeah, so I can totally appreciate that through a personal experience, which has led us to what we're doing now, when

Unknown: 8:57

I hear that that that still shocks me, it still is shocking, that a doctor would would write the script for an antidepressant without even a basic routine blood test.

Stephanie Slater: 9:11

And I felt that also, I mean, I will say I'm by no means a qualified expert. I have a Bachelor of psychology. So a very basic basic understanding of psychology. But thankfully, I was in a position where I actually said I don't want the script for that. I don't feel that that's my first step. And I walked away and I then went and sought further testing and understanding and that's what led me on my journey. But I feel that many individuals, mothers would go into an appointment like that and think, Okay, well, I guess that's what I need, and they don't have the sense of autonomy, or confidence, or Yeah, confidence to question what they're being told. And so we just take this advice as if it's, you know, God

Will Slater: 9:57

travelled with everyone wanting a Golden Pill. that's going to solve all of their problems in. And that's generally how people within society will think about things. And so if if the GPS saying, here's the solution, why why would you push back against that, and then you'd be crazy to Fortunately, you had the education to do so. But most wouldn't. That's

Unknown: 10:17

right. That, unfortunately, has been the culture coming at us through newspapers and television channels, that if you've got something wrong, you got to go and see a doctor, the doctor will find out, and we'll fix you, that's been the culture, all funded from a few. A few sources are not just the pharma industry, but other sources. So folks, are encouraged to hand over ownership of their health, to a white coated expert, with the fantasy that they're caring and interested. So that's has been the culture and many folk to come. And really, they, they just want a simple medication, to fix it. In my specialty in psychiatry, there are people who come and they just want a different if I only had the different antidepressant, I'd find, but I tend not to see them. Because if I find the person really has made their mind up, they've got ADHD, they need to be treated with Vyvanse or Ritalin, then I lovingly refer them to one of my many colleagues who's really good at writing scripts, and I tend not to see them, because I can show them all the evidence base for how their nutrition will completely transform their mental state and bring them back to me, I can show them all that. But I found in the back of their minds that they'll go through it, but they'll come up, like after four or five sessions. Yeah, but I think I want to be assessed for ADHD or whatever it is, or autism, whatever the trendy thing is, and and so I then have to refer them on so rather than waste their time I, I select out those those folks who really aren't interested. They've made their minds up, what's wrong with them, and they've made their minds up that they need a physical treatment, and that's what they want, and that's fine. That's where they're at, as you say,

Will Slater: 12:23

why is that happening? Do

Unknown: 12:24

you think? Well, as I say, the culture, in medicine and through the media, has been to disempower people to to not look at why they're getting sick or why they're feeling unhappy. It started in 1910. You may know that the the oil barons basically took over medical training and the medical schools, I think called the Flexner Report, went into the medical schools. And from that came a ruling that medical schools were no longer allowed to teach natural empathy, homoeopathy or any of the Allied what we now call allied health disciplines, which had been practised for hundreds of years or 1000s of years and who had real experts who really weren't healing people. They were banned, basically from medical training after nine to the 1910 Flexner Report. So that the focus shifted to pharmaceuticals, which obviously profited those oil industry barons who were making them and it's been like that ever since the focus has been on prescribing

Stephanie Slater: 13:43

the College of Natural Medicine, I think they I remember your sister Well, she was going to study to be a naturopath and then Medicare, changed the

Will Slater: 13:55

don't remove the rebate, rebate, patient private

Unknown: 13:59

health cards.

Stephanie Slater: 14:00

Yeah. So it feels like it's another way in which we're diminishing the value of these maybe more natural, more integrative more via the allied health disciplines and saying it's not real medicine,

Unknown: 14:14

allied health and integrative practitioners have consistently and vigorously been attacked, denigrated and undermined in the media. You should hear some of the attacks on nem National Institute of Integrative Medicine where I work and Avni him and professor in bright hope have gone in to defend integrative medicine. But only day before yesterday in the Herald Sun, there was a big article warning about taking vitamins and supplements that they could have. And then there was a there was a piece on Channel Seven, where some expert professor was saying if you take some of these domains they can accumulate, the body can't get rid of them, they can do damage to the brain that kidneys. You know, this was on Channel Seven mainstream and it was in the Herald Sun Abney showed me a no it was in sorry, it was in the age actually. And that is the kind of thing that the masses are reading and hearing and listening to, and it's coming in, and it lodges, it's very effective marketing and propaganda, which we sometimes forget that that is that is going on. And so many of our integrative GPs have been before the medical board complaint was put in about me, I was reducing patient's medications, apparently too quickly, I was diagnosing trauma issues, where and where I didn't think it was schizophrenia, or bipolar, it was complex trauma, I was picking up nutritional deficiencies and drug and substance addictions which had not been looked at. So I was I was putting some of them on vitamin D, and Omega three. And so that particular public health authority put a notification in about me to opera. Wow. And, you know, they had to check me out. So I had to undergo a performance assessment to professors. The whole process took four years, and I was completely cleared. In the end, they didn't find anything but but that is the kind of attack that the integrative doctor is under. And doctors are not allowed to say anything negative about any prescribe treatment, pharmaceutical were gagged effectively, so we can't really get informed consent. So I have to be careful not to say too much about the antidepressants, you're absolutely wise not to take them. You won't hear about the adverse effects of those antidepressants from your doctor. But they're huge. And quite destructive in young people especially. Yeah, so.

Will Slater: 17:14

So is that a legal requirement most most practising medical practitioners are legally bound from explaining or discussing the negative side effects with their patients. Yeah,

Unknown: 17:26

we should be, there's no other way to get informed consent. So if I want someone to take a medication, I'm supposed to say, look, I expect this will benefit you in this time. But these are some of the side effects and long term, some people get this. And so then you can warn them to watch out for that. And then they can come back and we can drop the dose or stop it straight away. And so if they get sick from the medication, and then say, the doc never told me you never warned me of this, then they could certainly bring a case against against me against the doctor. On the other hand, doctors who have spoken out against some recent therapeutic interventions have universally had their registration suspended. They will find a reason for doing that, you know, going against government policy. So so we we keep our heads below the parapet. That's how I've stayed in practice. But I certainly do advise patients Yeah.

Stephanie Slater: 18:35

I don't know if this is a little bit on a tangent, but you just were making me think about how there's the propaganda out there around vitamins, and then they can accumulate and become toxic and that kind of thing. And, and just ignoring how diet can impact your nutrition can impact things. And I know, I did a lot of research on like the colour of red red colorings, and how awful they are for children. And it still shocks me to this day that Panadol the only two flavours they come in are red, and orange. Now I give my children the orange because I think it's the least better. But But and I remember I was sharing this with a friend. And she was like, ah, like, you know, it was always like I was a bit crazy, like how loopy that you're too scared to give your kid something red. But I truly am so fearful of red colouring because of some of the studies that suggest that it's linked to a lot of behavioural issues is that first of all, is that an accurate research? Conclusion that I've come to from what I've read, and what are your thoughts on the fact that yeah, children's things are made with colorings?

Unknown: 19:36

I think that is I'm afraid the culture is slightly being directed. I know this sounds a bit conspiracy theory like but unfortunately, the things that are marketed are not only not good for us, many of them are toxic. And so, for example, the over the counter medications, the proton pump inhibitors given for acid reflux, absolute disaster long term strongly linked to cancer and other problems but very frequently prescribed without any warnings given now you can buy them without a prescription proton pump inhibitors. Similarly the statins to lower cholesterol. The whole theory behind that that high cholesterol is bad will give you heart attacks or strokes has been absolutely blown out of the water by good doctors and good researchers. And yet they are still prescribed. Maryanne Demasi reporter with The ABC lost her job she did a think it was It wasn't four corners. It was one of the other documentary things on the ABC about the statins and was sacked and shunned from work after that. But they are an absolute disaster. Those drugs and so if you can avoid them, I would recommend everybody have a look at somebody like Ian bright hope. He is professor of integrative medicine. He started acronym, the Australasian College of nutritional Environmental Medicine. And he's now running an outfit called World of Wellness. Go on to the website. There's nothing difficult about it. He's not pushing any particular product and have a look at get an idea of what nutritional health and medicine and integrative approaches what they look like. Also go on to the NEM website and consult integrative practitioners naturopaths will be across all of this stuff. naturopaths homoeopaths nutritionists, not dietitians, dietitians are funded by the food industry on its funds the training on its on its biscuit like Yeah, I think they may have stopped that in route because there was a bit of an outcry. There was a surgeon, Gary Fettke, who was holistic, and he got tired of having to amputate limbs of his diabetic patients. So he started telling them eliminate sugar from your diet and refined carbs. There was a complaint put in by a dietician that he was practising outside his remit as a doctor, and he was struck off last his career for that. So investigate Gary Fettke. And there's quite a few really excellent doctors who've been in that position, and who have joined those of us lobbying for change. But, but yeah, I would avoid those things and look into it. Educate yourself about the risks of those colourful painkillers for kids, and also, the vitamins. A lot of the vitamin companies like black malls have been taken over by pharmaceutical companies. And the quality's been changed. So you really have to do a little bit of homework, I'd say.

Will Slater: 23:32

I think for a lot of people, they they find it hard to know where to begin or to. Even if you do have some level of education or some desire to find out, to understand what is true, is a very challenging thing. I think it's not just limited to the medical world. I think in today's society more broadly. Having an understanding of the truth is is very difficult to ascertain objectively, when it feels like we live in a world now where everything is polarising and driven to create totally opposing views on just about every topic. If you look into we're both obviously very invested in health and nutrition and even with our own diets and lifestyle to try and get an accurate understanding of what is the best course of action is not impossible Stephanie probably gets sick of me every other week coming home and having learned something and going I'm going to try this and I'm going to try this and I'm going to go carnivore and then I'm going to cut out carbs and then I'm going to try keto or you know whatever the whatever the thing is,

Stephanie Slater: 24:41

I think it's because you jump on that bandwagon you go full throttle in that thing and then I'm like well I don't know if that's like maybe we should look into that and then eventually you come to the party with

Will Slater: 24:49

but I guess what Chris is saying is trying to learn I'm trying to educate myself about what is good for me and what is the the optimal health diet lifestyle practices for me to then for us to be able to pass on to our kids and it's, it's a bloody nightmare. Like it's really hard.

Stephanie Slater: 25:07

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Unknown: 25:43

What you're doing is exactly right. It's exactly what I want everyone to do.

Will Slater: 25:48

Did you hear that? Stephanie? Yes, I heard that one more time.

Unknown: 25:52

Looking, you've gone looking your eyes and heart are open to what you're hearing from experts in different fields. And to the point you're willing to try things. And if you check in, you would find there's a resonance if something feels right to you, when you hear it for the first time. There's a resonance ship that makes sense. You know, I think I'll give that a go. So I don't think we're without guides. I don't think we're just lost blind and deaf in the woods. I think that if we can check in and how we feel about new information, does this feel right? Does it sound good to me? Does it make sense to me, okay, okay. And then we decide from there, whether we're going to try it, and you've Okay, you've gone into the the carnivore diet, you would then know if you stick to that it wouldn't take long before you know if you feel better. Or if you don't feel better, it wouldn't take long, and there's your feedback. I feel so much better on this, you know, my head's clear, you know, I'm sleeping well waking refreshed, there's your positive feedback, so you'll do more of it. And you'll, you'll spread the word. So I think our job, my job, at least, is is to give people those sources, where they can go and check for themselves and encourage them to be curious, like you and to go looking. And then when they do find something that works, they will they will know it that many of my patients are not highly educated, you know, they've been through addictions may still be in their chaos in their personal lives. They're, funnily enough, they're the patients I like to work with. And you

Will Slater: 27:53

might like us as patients. Feels like you're describing our life sometimes. What

Unknown: 27:58

everybody really everybody, so we can identify with them. But but but but then the people who look least resourced, if they actually just just do follow some of the simple guides that I tell them, they can change, they can heal, they can move on to a completely different path. So I'm always optimistic. Yeah,

Will Slater: 28:21

that's great. The comment I made just definitely the other day that sometimes frustrates you. But you know, strong opinions loosely held, I will find something that I like that I'm curious about and try it. But then as soon as new information presents itself or something else, or I don't, I don't feel it, then I'm prepared to shift. But I must say the carnivore diet having. I'm not exclusively but having introduced more of that I do, I do feel much better. And I guess that that, that feedback that resonance internally is an important part of deciding what to do. But I mean,

Unknown: 28:52

the good thing now is we've got websites, you click on a link and you're there and everything that that specialist that expert is has discovered is there often for free. So World of Wellness in bright hope and if you've got kids, Leila maths on, brilliant integrative paediatrician, ma who and she's lectured us at NIMH, she has her own website, her book is A to Zed of children's health, I think something like that, but but get on her website and have a have a look at what you can do if you've got kids. World of Wellness.

Will Slater: 29:28

For everyone listening, we'll link to all the show notes as well as their images.

Unknown: 29:32

Click on that and just have a little look or watch, watch a few videos. That's all.

Stephanie Slater: 29:39

I think you made a really good point though about you'll feel it in your body and it will resonate my way from I guess experience with other people and even almost as a teacher. A lot of what I see though is that people are so disconnected from their body. They don't know how to listen to what their body's telling them. And if you know it's a headache, then it's part Panadol. But actually, what's the headache link to? And so I think we are just living in a society where we're so busy and distracted by other things, that there's such a disconnect within our body. And

Unknown: 30:10

that's what we've been told. Yeah, that's what will be been sold through the mainstream media, and by the medical profession, Oh, you better not to trust your body. And if if, if you are prescribed something and you ask a question about it, the doctor can get very angry and indignant. I was once thrown out of a GP practice that he prescribed antibiotics for UTI. And I just asked what would happen if I didn't take them. And he said, You're just a nature boy get out. I was many years ago, but I think you don't want to disappoint the doctor, the doctor seems to have an air of authority. I know what's best for you. Nevermind what you feel. So that has been the culture and it's a pretty damn sick culture. It's been going on for decades. So I quite understand why it is challenging. For those of us practising integrative medicine, it's hard for us to get people to change their perspective.

Will Slater: 31:10

I think something that's starting to shift, and maybe you can talk to this more than I can, Stephanie, but from a mother's perspective, I know that there are changes happening in the medical industry, where there is more, more trust or recognition placed in the mums intuition about their child, because I know it can be hard for people to challenge the system or to challenge the white lab, like you said, there's this god complex that exists within medicine, where we trust everything implicitly, that said to us, and if we challenge it, well, what bloody research do we have? You know, we're not. We're not professors. We're not academics. We're not trained in medicine, but it just doesn't feel right. It doesn't resonate. And I know that you've done that before with our kids where something's been suggested or recommended. And you will push back and say, You know what, I'm not going to do that. I don't actually know why. But it just doesn't feel right. It doesn't resonate with me. And there are shifts coming out there in how mothers especially are trusted in their own children's well being. And yeah, I

Stephanie Slater: 32:08

mean, Queensland has the rule law. I can't remember it's, it's not Murphy's Law, obviously. But it's like, named after where it was a mother who was advocating for their child and the mother was actually right, and what was wrong with the child. And so now Queensland has a law, that about you have to listen if their mother tells you like it, but it's not, like blows my mind that it's not nationwide. And obviously, there's now inquiries into birth trauma. And you know, women speaking up about the fact that they're not listened to that the doctor just goes ahead and does what they want to do when there's no, they're try, they're advocating for themselves and saying, hear me. And so there's definitely yeah, there's inquiries going on about that at the moment. That's

Unknown: 32:46

basic, good, good practice. You would think, absolutely basic, if you're working with babies and children. absolutely fundamental, you're dependent on the parents. Totally,

Stephanie Slater: 32:58

which is, yeah, good segue,

Will Slater: 32:59

because I did want to ask you, Chris, about a quote that you you said to us. And one of the first times that we met, which I love, I've referenced on the podcast before but

Stephanie Slater: 33:08

you say cried out, I got very teary when you first said it. The

Will Slater: 33:13

comment that you made was one of the most important things that we need to do in society these days is to support the dad to love the mum, I'd love you to riff a little bit about what you mean by that, and why you think it's so important.

Unknown: 33:27

Yeah, I think it's so important. Because having worked with kids through my training and studied trauma and how it evolves, if the kid has two parents who basically are respectful to each other, if there's a certain respect and affection between mum and dad, then that kid has a much better chance of growing up resilient inside and with a confidence and without complex trauma wounds, called personality disorder. So I tend to focus my practice, if, if I have a male patient and he has young kids particularly, I will do all I can to get that gentleman to be willing to work on himself to be willing to get to understand himself and accept himself with all the emotions that come up at different times to accept them, to be able to let them be there and to also be still make space so that he can relate differently with his wife or his or the mother of his kid. So that's the the aim and we've had some excellent teachers in that this works all been done. on what can what can the man do to be a good father and a good partner? Very, very simple, basic stuff. Involving, recognising and managing and being okay with your own emotional states. And making a space. I would refer everybody to John grey, men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, which I think I gave you the audio of him talking to Tony Robbins, but men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, that men and women do not think and respond emotionally in an identical way. And that's another piece of lying propaganda that's being shoved on us. Little boys and little girls that can interchange and they're more or less identical, that the tendency that we as men have, if a woman is in any sort of trouble, is to go in and fix it. Go in and and fix it make it right for her. And we have to learn not to do that yet. So

Will Slater: 36:14

no regular listens, listeners of this podcast, Chris might recognise some of that happening from time to time with us talking.

Unknown: 36:21

Well, if you recognise that you've been doing it, that is the first step to real significant change. What the woman needs is being heard. And that involves our lips being button. So there's a particular way of being with another person that different specialists have called it different things. Ronnie Lang calls, it co presents, other people call it with Ness listening. In other words, you're fully here and now with the other person, across from you fully focused on on being here, right now. Your mind is not wandering, you're listening to them, and you're feeling the energy. And you're, if you are not quite sure, you may ask, Oh, so you're saying? Alright, so you felt pretty rejected by that you can check in with the other person. But that's a question. You're not assuming you know, the problem. And then scanning in your mind ship? How can I fix this for her? Now, that's a different mental state, a different state of being, which we can all cultivate? And if somebody asks, How do you do that? You say,

Will Slater: 37:42

that was going to be my next question. Stephanie is nodding profusely, and I'm sitting here going, I know, I know that that's what I should do. But it is very hard in practice to actually implement. It's actually not

Stephanie Slater: 37:54

well, ha ha, ha, ha, ha.

Unknown: 37:57

It's like, Wayne Dyer's lovely response. Somebody else? How do you do it, you just do it. You practice and many times you won't do it. That doesn't mean it's hard to do it, it just means very often, we we devolve back to the man's way of doing shit, you know, we'll go in, and we'll try and fix it for it. But as soon as you do that, the woman knows she has not really been heard. You're not really there with her in that play space. As Russell Mears calls it. Instead, you're busy in your mind, trying to fix some problem. And what she needs in that moment is for you to be still and quiet and fully present with her listening, figuring out what her story is and where it's left her now. And that's it. You don't have to do anything. So that's the first thing if you can do that, your relationship will transform and you know, you'll be a lot happier as demand, which is the goal of this?

Stephanie Slater: 39:06

Yeah, I think that that's so powerful. And I do also, I guess my question to you is, I know that by nature, we're saying that men are fixers doers, they want to come in and yeah, fix that thing. Do Is there a situation in which, if will is coming to me with things? Is it just that it comes more naturally to me as a woman to sit? Because I don't find it hard. I can just sit with Well, not that he's ever like, often that emotion but it's even the children I can sit with him and just be in that play space? I think he called it and that, you know, yeah, that emotion and just allow that to be and sitting in the emotion is really difficult for wellworth for me, so do you just think that that's a that's a biological thing, like they just you're not wired that way and you just have to become wired that well. I think we're

Unknown: 39:54

all different. Some are wired that way. Some, some not. But to exactly as you say, be able to sit in that emotional state, even if it's a low energy emotion like apathy, even if it's grief, sadness, fear, which shows up as anxiety, even if it's anger, just to be able to still love the kid or your husband or your wife, while they're in that state, and not need to fix them, not need them to be happy to be in some other emotional state, you're accepting them exactly as they are, in that moment. And one of the things I give to a lot of my patients to help with relationships is a little piece by Martha Beck called How to stop how to love more by caring less, how to love more by caring less, I should have given you that. But I would refer everybody to that little, little thing. It's just a less than two pages, but it explains brilliantly how, when you try and fix the person they will. And this has happened to me with someone I was very close to. She had a horrendous family problem. And I immediately saw how it could be fixed with phoning this person. And I actually got my phone, I said, look, okay, here we are. Here's just get the phone. And her sisters were there. And she screamed, she shrieked and sobbing. Now he don't understand, you know, do you know, and it was only later that I realised, you know, I was just like everybody else. I hadn't been there listening and appreciating what she'd been through. In that moment. I was just on my own little hobby horse of fixing it. So what was your question?

Stephanie Slater: 41:49

I forget. But that was,

Will Slater: 41:50

whether it's, you're saying it's innate, or it's just yeah, a difference between us because something that we're working on currently, Chris is trying to. We had this realisation over Christmas that Stephanie carries the emotional baggage for the family for, you know, largely speaking for the four of us. And obviously, that makes her very tired and exhausted. And I couldn't understand why she was tired and exhausted. I'm thinking, What do you mean, you get the same amount of sleep as I do slightly look slightly more, you know, let's go. And then I had a realisation that actually, you're looking better

Unknown: 42:23

with sleep.

Will Slater: 42:26

Food, you got caffeine. Let's go.

Stephanie Slater: 42:29

Why are you complaining? So like, you have two children. And

Will Slater: 42:33

Chris is looking at me like, I'm an idiot. That's us, boys. Boy. So we're trying to actively now share that load. And I think it naturally ended up that Stephanie would be the the person who would sit with our children and deal with their emotional outbursts, because she was very comfortable by doing that. And I'm now trying to take on more of that and sit with especially a nearly four year old and understand his emotion. And when he's having these big outbursts, and just be with him beautiful, but it's, it's taken a lot of horsepower to try and get to that point it has, it has not been an easy transition, and we're not through it yet. We're working on that. And

Unknown: 43:13

you're doing it. I'd be very careful about little word, but I'm sitting with my four year old, I'm just being present as an energy understanding him. But But it's so hard. You're you're doing it. How many fathers have young kids have even thought about any of that? So you're doing it so I would encourage any, any man listening, especially if you have got young kids to, to go on this, this searching this journey that you're on that you two are on?

Will Slater: 43:45

What would you say to let's say, a majority of our audience is probably female or so let's say you're speaking to a mother is listening to this got young kids and has a husband who is maybe not as open to the idea of doing this or maybe doesn't recognise doesn't have that, that level of awareness. But she being a far more superior race than than us males. recognises that this might be part of the problem and the challenge how, how would you encourage her or that family dynamic to start the process of developing this understanding or awareness or this, this husband working on himself so that the family can be in a better position?

Unknown: 44:26

I would encourage her not to focus on her husband working on himself, but to turn it 180 degrees and start working on herself. I would encourage her to read John Gray's men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, and to see what she could do differently, to support him to support and encourage him. I've got a friend who's a lawyer, Charles COVID, is I don't know if you know him, but he's rich. clearer idea of how the woman can support and help her man. Not all of which I can repeat here. But one of the things is simply look for the things he does that are helpful. And maybe no one's noticed. But notice them just notice the things here and, and also find ways in which you're grateful to your man for being there. Switch your focus to to that. And there's some other excellent authors about relationships. Kelly Brogan a mind of yours, she's psychiatrist, Christiane Northrup, so do a bit of work, but do not. When when your mind goes to he needs to know he doesn't. You need to do the work on yourself. I'm a practitioner, a facilitator of the Work of Byron Katie, that is the other source I would direct the lady lady to. There's a brilliant American woman in Australia, Rosie stage who trained with Katie in California. And she's now here, you will get some fabulous tools, practical, hardcore ways of being with your guy, that that that will transform things from that. So I'd invite you to check out the work with Rosie and The Work of Byron Katie. And in terms of your question, what can the woman do when she knows her husband needs to work on himself? One of Katie's famous sayings is if you think someone needs the work, you need the work.

Stephanie Slater: 46:50

Yes, why are you staring at me? No, that's powerful.

Will Slater: 46:54

I'm staring at you. Because I mean, I can share we talk about this a bit. But Stephanie's big. I'm aware that I need to do work as well. So I'm not trying to do exactly what you went against. But you're the work that you're trying to do this year is in prioritising yourself and creating the space to work on yourself. Because that's not something that's always come naturally to you. And you can talk to this more than I can, but especially after becoming a mum. Oh, you want me to do talk about it than me tell your story? Yeah.

Stephanie Slater: 47:25

Well, yes, I you saying there in the sense that I need like, instead of saying that someone else needs to do the work reflecting back and looking at the work you have to do.

Will Slater: 47:32

I can only imagine that as a mother who has found it difficult to prioritise working on yourself. You might be listening and thinking it's hard to find that space. Yeah.

Stephanie Slater: 47:41

So I think that the the transition that I'm making this year is rather than looking to you to be the one that's going to fix things and make, oh, yeah, there you go fix things, but make your changes. I'm actually just, I'm changing. And I'm reprioritizing and making time for me, because then I'm in such a better headspace to then attack, you know, what are the family dynamics and what's going on and the challenges that we face. And I think that's really important. It's the first time I've ever really done that in my life, put myself first and actually prioritise myself.

Will Slater: 48:11

Yeah, the thing that I would love the most to see and Stephanie, Christian, you might be able to comment on this, but she would prioritise the two children, then me then herself. And I would love to see a world in which she prioritised herself first, then the children and then me as an appropriate order.

Unknown: 48:28

Didn't I hear you just say you are for the first time in your life prioritising yourself? Yeah,

Stephanie Slater: 48:34

it's my. So

Unknown: 48:36

again, looks like you're going Yeah, you said you'd for the first time, you've thought about where you're putting your energies now. And you've never done that before. And you're really reflecting on how do I want to, you know, conserve my beautiful energy and not fritter it. So I'd say, again, you're doing it you're on it. Sounds like it. Sounds like you're thoughtful about it. And presumably, you can ask him if you need him to do something. Well, would you do that? What's your take the rubbish odour? Do you mind looking after, you know, presumably, you can just ask, you know, without any expectation, and he can say No, I'm busy. And you can ask her if you want something, I presume? Definitely. That's lines are open. Yes.

Stephanie Slater: 49:23

Yeah. I think probably at times I've been in the past maybe hesitant to put extra pressure off you know, in inverted commas, but now I just always a bit passive aggressive. Whereas now it's just direct. You know, who can you about that? You live with that too? Well, I

Unknown: 49:43

am it's where you

Stephanie Slater: 49:44

are. Okay. There you go. Even a psychiatrist can be passive aggressive. See? Well, yeah.

Will Slater: 49:48

I just I love the simplicity, which is always the way isn't it? The most powerful things are so simple to prioritise and work on yourself to then be able to give to the rest of the family and I think Yeah, I would easy though no simple and not easy. Yeah, I think, obviously would go to solving a lot of problems. And I think the more that we're leaning into that, the better it's making things between us, although it's a bumpy road, because it probably feels different and uncomfortable.

Stephanie Slater: 50:18

And I do love Chris, that takeaway. The but, you know, I think just sit in the acknowledgement that you are doing something, and that's really powerful,

Unknown: 50:27

or you're not. Oh, you're not? Oh, you know, I I had three bars of chocolate today. Okay. You know, I'm on this diet, but I but so yeah, I prefer and,

Stephanie Slater: 50:41

yes, that's something we're both trying to do.

Will Slater: 50:44

What is we've just about to wrap up, Chris, I feel like we could go for hours. So maybe we'll this will be one of two. So that you're going to be last week, these interviews are terrific. We learned so much. And I think the audience gain so much as well. What's What's the question that we didn't ask you that you wish we had? Or we could have?

Unknown: 51:04

Oh, that's, that's difficult. Possibly. What? What can the, the husband or the male partner do if he's feeling stressed and stuck with young kids and in a relationship, and if he's stressed and stuck about that, what can the man do, but in a way we have covered that. And we really, and I'm saying some some simple things, I would say look after your nutritional health purely so that you will feel better throughout your day. It's so simple to eliminate those processes, seed oils, get gi into that house, cook with GI, try not to eat take away and no potato chips, switch the kind of fat that you're eating, you will just feel better. Cut down, eliminate sweetened drinks Cola, and shit like that. If you can switch to water, the physical side and then the emotional side, like we said, just make a decision that how you feel throughout the day is largely dependent on how things are with your partner with your lady. And what simple things changes can you adopt that would transform that and make it much more resourceful, and joyful, and peaceful? And they really are simple and go go looking. Follow up some of the links.

Will Slater: 52:44

Yeah, terrific. I love that. That advice is things that people can go and do today, it's not going to cost them 1000s of dollars to go and medication or therapy or whatever it is. It's things that people can control and and implement immediately, which is so powerful.

Stephanie Slater: 53:00

And amazing conversation. Thank you so much, Chris for taking the time to chat with us. And we will yet put all the links to everything on our show notes. And hopefully everyone can get reading and men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. I remember my mom having it on her side table. I think it was maybe just our way we just love to divorce or just before divorce. I can't read I remember seat saying sitting on a side table. So it's been around forever. And I actually want to read it as well. So there you go.

Unknown: 53:25

Beautiful. Well, it's been a pleasure. Thanks for asking me guys. Absolutely.

Stephanie Slater: 53:29

Thanks so much. All right. Bye. Bye. Thank you for listening all the way to the end of the b&b corner brought to you by SLA. As a way for us to say thank you. We are offering the first 50 mums, a free consult and your first month's product free. All you need to do is visit escalade.co. Schedule a consult with one of our practitioners and enter the promo code baby consult. Take your first step towards personalised wellness with Escalade today.