The Unstoppable Accountant - Grow your Accounting Firm
For all things business, entrepreneurship and finance!
Hi Arun here, in this podcast I will happily share my ideas, successes and failures in growing my businesses, investment ideas, and juggling this all in a rapidly changing world.
If you are looking to grow your business, build a global team, or just need inspiration to make it happen, you have come to the right place for inspiration and action.
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Arun
The Unstoppable Accountant - Grow your Accounting Firm
Building the Ideal Accounting Team
Ever wonder how a niche accounting firm can transform into a financial tour de force? This episode, with Aaron Mara by my side, takes you through Samara's riveting evolution. We tackle the gritty details of scaling up, from the initial struggle to recruit top-notch accountants in the UK to the strategic decision of setting up shop in Delhi. Delve into how we navigated the complexities of an international workforce post-pandemic, and witness the innovative approaches that reshaped our client services in accounting.
Let's get personal as we discuss the indispensable role attitude plays in hiring, especially when managing remote teams. You'll get an insider's look at why we prioritize potential and positivity over a resumé packed with technical skills. Listen to our tales from the trenches, where the ability to share a laugh is just as critical for team dynamics as crunching numbers. These experiences underscore the rewards and challenges of cultivating a supportive and productive work environment, regardless of geography.
Rounding off our conversation, we deep dive into the strategic advantages of outsourcing accounting functions to India. The episode busts myths about offshore teams' capabilities and highlights the enormous potential for UK and global firms to leverage talent from abroad. We also cast a glance at the future of accounting, as we discuss how AI and global teamwork could redefine roles within the industry. Join us for a compelling look at the intricacies of building a successful, global accounting practice that stands ready to face the future.
Hello everyone, Welcome to the latest edition of the Unstoppable podcast. I'm Chris O'Shea, Head of Marketing at Samara, and today I'm joined by Aaron Mara. Hello, Aaron.
Speaker 2:Hey Chris, how are you doing you okay? Yeah, I'm not bad at all. How are you? Yeah, very well, very well, thanks. Busy, busy, but all good. Thank you, as always Right.
Speaker 1:So today, everyone, we're going to be talking about building your ideal accounting team. So just quickly, Aaron, for anyone who doesn't know, do you want to give us a quick overview of the story of Samara and Samara Global and how we got to where we are today and why? Yeah, of?
Speaker 2:course I can, chris. So going back many, many years, okay, so I trained as an accountant with good old PwC in the late 90s, went into investment banking, decided you know what that wasn't for me. I married a dentist meter and I saw an opportunity. I thought you know what dentists require, accountants they need help. And so from that point I quit my job in banking and started up samara. And samara was a firm that started off with helping dentists with all their accountancy compliance tax needs and that grew and grew over the years.
Speaker 2:We added financing, commercial finance brokerage to the business and it grew further. In addition, what we also realized that as we grew we needed to hire more team members, and especially pre-covid. It wasn't too bad hiring people we could find staff in the uk doing a great job, but also pre-covid. We'd also started using some offshoring or outsourcing firms based in india just to support some of the more simple compliance um required issues such as bookkeeping, tax returns, that type of thing, and we thought, okay, it's going all right. But then covid hit and I decided, right, we're going to shift everything back to the uk. Everything will change. And I thought, right, I'm going to hire more staff in the uk to support the initiative.
Speaker 2:And that's when we really hit a block um trying to find any good accountant who was experienced and capable and could do the work that we wanted to do. Um was a real challenge and we had a kind of a revolving door of people joining and then leaving um, primarily because they just didn't have either the right skill set, the right attitude. That just on numerous factors. Okay, so I thought, right, we're going to change this um. I'd seen what had worked in india previously working with third parties and I explored the idea of working with those third parties offshoring firms and I thought you know what we can do this ourselves.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, and having an indian origin, having a contact base, having no knowing how india works, was obviously a huge advantage to me. So we set up our own operation based out of delhi, and that has grown over the last what? 18 months or so? Yeah, so that's supporting all our accountancy clients, um with the compliance, tax return, payroll, year-end accounts, you name it. They do. Okay, obviously, we have team members here in the UK who liaise with them, manage and coach the team, develop the team, but now we're also our team is at the point in India where we're adding team members to support other accountancy firms. So if someone needs someone to do um bookkeeping or managing accounts or tax returns, we can add team members in india for our other accountancy firm clients here in the uk. So that's kind of a potted history, um I hope that helps.
Speaker 1:No very much so. Um so, going back to when, uh, we were recruiting um from the uk, what, um, how did we find recruits like, how do we, where do we go to find them? Was it read and, indeed, or was it linkedin or?
Speaker 2:word of mouth. Yeah, it was a combination of things. So we'd obviously use the kind of main platform such as you mentioned, indeed, or read um. We'd also use um, of course, linkedin also use agencies to help us source people. But it was just, and I was, I was, I was open to suggestion from everybody. Okay, and and um, and I got a few recruits from agencies and I realized that I paid the agency fee and then, within weeks, that person had left and I was like god it was, it was, it was an expensive business that you're hiring people thinking they're going to transform your firm. You spent thousands on agency fees and then realized, oh my god, it's just a non-starter. So it was just, it was just a revolving door of people and and I just thought you have to do things differently. And the world was changing. You know what we couldn't like as a small firm. You just could not afford to keep doing the same things. If you keep doing the same things, you keep getting the same results. I've learned, yeah.
Speaker 1:So I mean, we've talked about it a lot in other podcasts and webinars and on our blogs, but the recruiting shortage in the uk and the west generally, um, when we talk about accounting, what's causing that? Like, why is there such a shortage of skill of um, of people going into accounting? What's what's going on?
Speaker 2:yeah, good, good question. So I think, if you look at accountancy firstly, isn't now uh well, you've seen, you've got people retiring at the older end of the accountancy profession and we're not replacing those people who are retiring as quickly? Yeah, in addition, the younger people and who enter the accountancy world historically, I'd say, when I started, there were a lot more candidates entering accounting but, now people see other sectors as more interesting, more lucrative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so they're going into tech or they might be going straight into banking or whatever it may be, and accounting isn't seen as as an attractive occupation, with the pay etc. So I think that's certainly a factor as well. I think it's also seen now as a sector that maybe not overtaken, but certainly very AI will take some of the roles going forward.
Speaker 1:So I was going to say young people might be assuming well, I can go into this industry which I think is incorrect.
Speaker 2:But I know there'll always be a need for accountants, but I think and I think it's also just got a poor brand. To be honest, accountants it's seen as that geeky, boring kind of role, which it's seen as that geeky, boring kind of role, which it isn't, I promise, but yeah, but it's a punchline, whereas when you you don't have a kind of a, you have the, the kind of the, whether you like him or not, you have people like elon musk, who's the tech kind of, and everyone wants to be like elon musk. Okay, um, you don't really have the equivalent in the accounting space to be honest, okay, so, um, it's that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:People aren't going to go into tech or do something else. So I think you've got a brand image and it's always been had a struggle there, but now it's even even more so, even more so yeah.
Speaker 1:So when, when you are looking for, if you are recruiting um in-house, um in the uk or um in other countries, what would you say? I mean, this doesn't just apply to accounting Do you think skill or fit is more important? When you say fit, what do you mean by fit? Like culture? So would you prefer someone who knows their stuff but you can't really get on with that well, or would you prefer someone who needs maybe a little bit of training, a little bit of building up, but is going to get on really well?
Speaker 2:definitely the latter, chris. So, yeah, definitely someone who's got the right attitude, um, who's hungry to learn. They might not have the skills, and that's what we found with our team in india. We're hiring young guys, um, who might not have all the prerequisite skills some of them do, but some don't but we're willing to train them because you know what their attitude is like superb, yeah, um, because they're hungry, they're keen, they're driven, they want to achieve okay, and that's what we've really found unique in india, um, and that hasn't come easy. Obviously, you get people in india who haven't got the attitude right, or cultural fit or these types of things. Of course you do okay, but it just seems to be there are a dearth of people who are capable, who are keen, who speak great english, who've got good communication skills and, but, most over overriding that, the attitude is great yeah.
Speaker 1:so when you are interviewing a candidate, what kind of questions do you tend to ask? Because I mean, when I'm interviewing candidates for marketing roles, I use their cv and a couple of questions just to kind of gauge if they know their stuff. If they hit the right keywords, then I know they know what they're talking about and then I spend most of it talking about them as a person. I think one of the phrases we've used together is would you go for a pint with them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's actually very, very true. Hang out. That's actually very, very true, okay. So, yeah, let's say the same thing in hiring a remote team as well. You know, chris, you want to. You want to feel that you can go out and have a laugh with them, um, and that's kind of what we do when I go to india and meet the team and I want to be able to say let's go out and maybe not going for a pint, but you might be going for a meal or something um with the team member and have a laugh, and that's so important, um, because otherwise it's just gonna be an uphill battle um dealing with those types of people.
Speaker 2:So, in terms of questions, there's always a, maybe the odd technical question, but in truth I don't really get involved in those technical side of things. I have other team members that help me to do that and assess them. But it's that thought would I want to go to go for a pint or go for a meal with them? Um, do I actually feel that I can rely on them? Do I feel that they're trustworthy? And? And if I feel they're trustworthy, and then surely they should be trustworthy for clients work and client related handling activities. So I think that's really, really important, do I? Are they? Are they going to say what they do and do what they say? You know, um, and of course, we all make mistakes, and of course, I'm the first person to stick my hand. I've made zillions of mistakes and I'm expecting my team members to make mistakes, but it's about how you, um, deal with those mistakes and how you approach the the situation.
Speaker 1:I think that goes back to their attitude, primarily, chris yes, because I mean, no matter how good a candidate is at their job, at some point you are going to get stuck in a project with them for a week where you're just at an impasse and you'd rather be with someone who you can relate to and, um, who you like essentially yeah, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 2:I've been in running a business for like the last four, well over 20 odd years now, 25 years almost. Okay, and I remember in my early days I'd think, you know, I've got to get the right candidate, right people with the right skill set and, yeah, it's nice. But if you meet an arsehole, you meet an arsehole. Okay, excuse my language okay, and and I don't have the time or the energy or the inclination to deal with that whether it's a team member or whether it's a client, okay, um, life's too short. Okay, and if I'm working with these people on a day-to-day basis, especially the team members, you want to be able to, you know, have a, have a laugh, whether they're sitting next to me or whether they're sitting on on remotely open across the world, that you feel comfortable enough to pick up the phone or pick up a team's call just to have a laugh, have a chat and get on with them. That's okay.
Speaker 2:I think it's even more important than on a remote basis, because otherwise, as a remote team member, you're quite isolated at times. So you want to be able to have that relationship with someone sitting in another part of the world. Oh, okay, okay, I had a laugh with him. It was good for him and at some point we'll meet that person okay. So when I met with the team recently when I went to Goa, took the whole team there, it was great because I'd firstly got to know people through virtual calls and virtual team meetings and the people we'd hired I'd realise you know what. They're actually really nice people, okay, and really kind of really just a good laugh okay. They're good at their job as well. Yeah, they're a a good laugh okay. Yeah, they are.
Speaker 1:They're good at their job as well. Yeah, they're a really good laugh, and that does make so much more of a difference than being the best possible skills-wise candidate.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think where people go wrong, okay, I think where people go wrong in building a team and I've made this mistake is you try and get the best candidates and kind of got the right CV and all these types of things, but honestly, that's irrelevant. You know what, how people get on with it. Ultimately, you have to work together. Whether you're doing accounting, marketing or anything, you have to work together. I can't do everything on anything. Yeah, you have to work together. I can't do everything my, and you can't do everything. You have to work with people. So you have to build that team and that's an approach okay.
Speaker 2:And if there's one person in the team that's kind of, um, not quite right. Okay, that can severely damage the business. Just one person okay, even if it's a 10 of a team of 100 people one person have a real detrimental effect and just get people down or upset. And if that person is in a kind of a senior position as well, the impact of that can be really significant. So it's so important to highlight if there's a problem we got wrong, you've got a bad apple, a bad person or not right for your team fit. You move them on as soon as possible.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely I mean, we all uh can. We can all name a couple of uh colleagues we've had in the past who weren't that great the robin, you never forget. The one you hated, the one that didn't get on well with the team. They're the ones that are sticking your brain. All right, you have to tell me. You have to tell me later. None of them are samara, luckily. I'm thinking about my first couple of roles, okay, um, yeah, we can have some stories about that one.
Speaker 2:Don't worry, I've got plenty. When I'm in my investment banking days, they're, they're etched in my skin. I've you, feel it. You know what.
Speaker 1:I remember that guy's name and if I ever see him again, I've got his image now, you like, on uh Wolf of Wall Street, rolling your eyes in the background like all these guys, yeah absolutely so.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, team is the heart of everything, you know. Yeah, there's no room, and there's also no room for any prima donnas in the team. Okay, and you see that, especially when I was in banking, you see lots of prima donnas who think they're so wonderful, but really is no space for that, really really isn't. Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So, moving back onto Samara Global, when we talked about a little bit, with the challenges and recruitment and your existing cultural connections there. So what made you decide right, enough's enough, we're going to move the operation to India largely.
Speaker 2:I think it eventually got to a point of so much pain, okay, of hiring I. I think it was over the space of six months, it must have been about six or seven people just just came and go, came and went in the uk team and I think you probably remember some of them I do yeah it's like what the f am I doing?
Speaker 1:okay, yeah, the great people just, but here today, gone tomorrow, yeah, just just didn't have the right fit, right attitude and you just thought you know what?
Speaker 2:I had to do something different. And that was a real impetus and we were growing and I think what we were finding is that to build especially certainly building an accounting firm it's a people business. You need good people that you can trust, you can rely on, who can help you, support the growth, growth. And it was pointless us getting all the new business in if we couldn't actually deliver it because we've got the wrong people in the team to actually do it. Um, so that kind of came around eventually over it and that's kind of what that was. That was the driving force really, that too much pain. You get to a point you know I've got to change it yeah, so what were your first?
Speaker 1:I mean, did you go out there and look at the Indian Indeed, or?
Speaker 2:That's a good question. What was the first step? The first step was like, right, we're going to do it, that was the thing. But how? It's like, oh my God, and I've got connections, as you said, I know things about India, but it's like, really, where do I start? And the first thing was to go on the equivalent of Indian Indeed and try and put an advert out there.
Speaker 2:But the funny thing I learned was that you put one advert out and you get literally thousands of applications, not like here in the UK. Put an advert on Indeed and you'd be lucky to get one application. You get thousands and they all promise that they're going to be brilliant. And then it's like a job and a half to actually filter those thousands of applicants to say what's right. But eventually we did and then we took on our first team member who was going to be the person who's going to help us build the infrastructure, build the team, and it kind of went from there really and there's been a huge learning point as we went through this to to comply with indian law and um companies issues and all of that sort of stuff and that then it's a constant learning thing, um out there. But it's been, yeah, been really really good, really really interesting, and we've got a solid team there that's um, yeah, just just gets things done. You know what?
Speaker 1:um what challenges have you faced though building the team out there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, the challenges are that people say they can. One challenge is that Indian people are always oh, I can do the job, I can do the job, and they're all very nice and all very friendly, but when it actually comes to the reality of doing it, they actually can't do it. And you kind of pick that up very swiftly Now. If they've got the right attitude, we'll help them support themselves to develop and do better and improve their skills, and that's fine. But if they've got a bad attitude and they're still promising they can do the job, then we'll kind of have to make some tough decisions. So that's certainly one challenge.
Speaker 2:I think technology is such an enabler, so that's really helped us interview people all over the place, um, and building that team. I think the expectation is certainly in india that people like that hybrid kind of work environment work from home, work from and work from the office a bit, and I think they're a younger crowd, so it's more of an expectation, I think, anymore now, even in the uk, let alone in india, I think challenges otherwise, yeah, I think it's about just managing, making sure that we've got the right team members and, as you do, you always find in your team there'll be some people who are really excelling and some team members who either are at the bottom and might be taking you for a ride okay, because especially if they're remote, actually are they doing any work or not, but we have systems and processes and people in place to support that and identify any issues there. So overall, it's been a not a good experience, but a brilliant experience.
Speaker 1:Oh, excellent, and talking about like day-to-day management, do you as the business owner do you? How much of a hand in the day-to-day management over there do you have? I know we've got people over there who kind of manage operations on a HR level and that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:How much of a hand in that do you have? I'm involved. I wouldn't say I'm not overly bearing. I don't like to think I am. Ultimately, it's my job to hire the good people that can take responsibility and do that. But I will always talk to the Indian team members quite a few times a week. If there's an issue, they'll get me involved and ultimately, as you said, I want it to work. So I'm certainly not a hands-off type of person. I want to get involved. So if I can help, I will get involved and I enjoy it. And it's also learning about how things are done in another part of the world and bringing some of my skill sets and knowledge from the UK to India, but also some of the things from India to the UK. So it's not one-way traffic, it's a two-way thing and, yeah, I'm just really enjoying it. Really enjoying it, yeah.
Speaker 1:It has been a brilliant experience, as you said over the last. What 18 months?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah it's been a brilliant experience.
Speaker 1:As you said, I've lost 18 months. Yeah, yeah, brilliant. Um. So for UK or Western or global accountants or even, uh, just smaller businesses who are facing or trying to recruit um, accountants, um, how much can be outsourced or offshores to places like India and how much needs to be done in house, like I know, bookkeeping and payroll that can be outsourced or offshored to places like India, and how much needs to be done in-house, like I know, bookkeeping and payroll that can be done Someone's sitting in Timbuktu, but, like taxes, that kind of thing, is that something you?
Speaker 1:can offshore yeah it's quite interesting.
Speaker 2:I was reading some posts on LinkedIn yesterday.
Speaker 2:I think, and there's always people saying, oh, I get approached by hundreds of companies trying to sell out offshoring services to me and what do the guys in india know about uk tax or it's type of stuff? And I think I think those people who are making those comments on linkedin are just pure ignorant. To be honest with you, um, you'll be, you'll be surprised at the knowledge and the hard work these people have. There are people with better qualifications the same qualifications I have got similar years of experience. People with CPA, us qualifications, you name it. They've got all this. So they know UK tax, they know US tax, they know all these things, they know all the systems and processes.
Speaker 2:So I think literally everything, honestly everything, can be done. I think out there, obviously you've got to find the right people on the right team to do it, but it can all be done. And that's why you see, like the big firms, like deloitte, pwc, and you know all of them, are just setting up bigger, bigger offshore centers in the world, because they know that, um, all that compliance work can be covered over there. And then the teams over here in the uk their job, job is to manage clients, manage relationships and look up maybe other opportunities that may not be compliance stuff, but on the accounting side of things I'm pretty confident that literally most things can be done there, most things.
Speaker 1:Okay, so anyone who is struggling to hire in their home country, offshoring, outsourcing, yeah yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'll give an example. We have a client, one particular client that comes to mind. He's got a small practice here in the UK. He's basically adding every time. He's adding literally every month. He's adding a new team member in India with us. First month he's a manager, then it's a bookkeeper, Then it's going to be a year-end accountant, then it's going to be someone who does personal tax. Basically all of these things can be done. And why?
Speaker 2:because he's firstly finding that he's saving money okay hiring staff out there, but it's not the primary driver for him. It certainly isn't the main driver. He's actually got people who can actually do the work okay, who are responsible, reliable and who can get the job done and, yeah, there's a saving for him as well. But his primary reason is that he can, he's getting the business in, but if he didn't have anyone to do the work, then it's just he can't run a business okay. So that's what he's doing. That's kind of repeated amongst other clients that we have as well. So I think it's so, um, I think.
Speaker 2:I think where I personally think what's going to happen this is my view and is of course there will still be accountants here in the uk. Of course there'll be the need for that. Of course there will be. But I think and with ai and everything, much of the back office work bookkeeping, tax returns, compliance, payroll, you know, preparation of that will all ship over there, all of it.
Speaker 2:And I think people who are thinking that, oh, we're going to still do it here in the UK, I think they're in for a huge surprise over the next few years and therefore the people who are here in the UK have to develop their skill set to be good at client handling, selling more business, business building relationships, upselling, other consulting type of services, that type of thing. That's where the opportunity is, because the compliance work will go overseas. Ai will take it as well, a combination of those two um and then that that that's how, and and there's a dearth of clever and capable people in places like india, but not only india, but other places in the world like the Philippines and other places that are set up for all of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, brilliant. Well, I mean, I think that's all the time we have for today and that's covered pretty much everything I wanted to talk about, sure.
Speaker 2:So, unless there's any final thoughts, I think offshoring as a whole is as I said. It's going to be the thing that's going to happen. It's happening already. I think there's resistance, there's lots of people who are wondering well, I shouldn't do, I can't do that, but it's happening. And for those that do do it and use it to their advantage, they'll be the firms that grow, they'll be the firms that develop. Is it without problems? Is it without difficulties? Yeah, of course it is. It's not always easy managing teams overseas, but if you work with a partner like ourselves, we can support that initiative and, step by step, you can then build your global team, global firm and provide the service you want to your clients.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Aaron, thank you very much for joining us today and for everyone listening. If you need any help with essentially any part of starting building growing your accountancy practice, then contact us. Read our blogs, follow our free course, watch our webinars. We're always here for anything you need Perfect.
Speaker 2:Thank you, chris, and really enjoyed talking to you today. Yeah, and as Chris said, if you need any help, just reach out to me direct. We can always arrange a call with myself or one of the guys in India and map out your needs and then work out what your requirements are. Okay, thank you, thank you very much. Aaron.