The Ask w/ Dr. Hanson PT
This podcast will share the world of physical therapy inside and outside of the clinic. We hope to create faith in our profession, change minds about access to healthcare and improve upon each provider in a meaningful way.
The Ask w/ Dr. Hanson PT
Breaking Barriers in Pelvic Health with Occupational Therapist Melissa
Discover the hidden intricacies of pelvic floor health with our guest Melissa, an occupational therapist who's carving out a unique niche in a field predominantly occupied by physical therapists. Listen and learn as we navigate the oft-ignored psychosocial elements of pelvic health, offering a fresh OT perspective that might just change how you view recovery and wellness. Melissa tackles common conditions like incontinence and pelvic pain, spotlighting the need for greater awareness and busting myths that obscure the realities of pelvic floor dysfunction.
Prepare to be enlightened on the unexpected role of breathing in pelvic floor therapy and the societal barriers that keep people from seeking help. This episode goes beyond the basics, discussing the promising horizon of virtual pelvic therapy, and providing actionable advice for those in search of the right specialist. Whether you're grappling with pelvic health issues or just eager to learn more, this conversation with Melissa promises valuable insights, shedding light on personal health advocacy and the importance of a tailored approach to therapy.
Hello everybody. We're back with another podcast today and I'm kind of taking the lead on this one today, so let me first introduce my guest, which happens to be one of my mentors and one of the occupational therapists that I get to work with every day, melissa. So welcome to our podcast. It's your first time. Go ahead and talk about yourself, or like introduce yourself, go ahead.
Speaker 2:Thank you, kyra, and thanks for having me on the podcast. I'm Melissa, I'm the occupational therapist and I work here in pelvic health as well as treating patients of other diagnoses, including neurological, hands pain, really whatever walks through the door that we feel like we can help, door that we feel like we can help. That's not pediatrics, unless it's like a medical pediatric sort of issue, but I primarily treat adults All right.
Speaker 1:But my question is usually pelvic floor therapy is kind of more correlated to like physical therapists Like how is that different? Or is there any change in the approach when it comes to having an occupational therapist kind of approach into pelvic floor therapy?
Speaker 2:I think that's a good argument. Um always right on who treats a certain area more PT or OT, more PT or an OT? Of course, just like anything, we are different. I'd say pelvic floor therapy was meant to live in the OT world, given that we already treat things like toileting, treat things like sex, treat pelvic health related issues. It's something that we have innately treated without even realizing it or without even recognizing it as a specialty. Um do we do things different? A lot of my teaching and mentoring was by PTs, not so much OTs. Um a lot of the courses are taught by.
Speaker 2:PTs, but there are some OTs that do teach pelvic health or pelvic floor related classes. Um, I've I guess I've taken one by an OT, um, approach being different, I think, like any therapist, just whatever tends to be in your bag of tricks or things that you tend to.
Speaker 1:Like style, yeah, style.
Speaker 2:Style, but I think as an OT, we also look at more psychosocial issues and what's going on with somebody, say with stress, or how they deal just kind of with everyday life and living and doing those more task analyses, that is more up our alley. I think probably is what also sets me apart as well.
Speaker 1:Do you think, like when you're treating pelvic floor therapy, is it a little bit more difficult in terms of kind of caseload because usually it is referred as like a physical therapy referral. Sometimes does the process kind of lead to any like delays in care because it does have to get transferred over to the OT side of things or because PT also has direct access? Does that play a part in also patient outcomes If there's any delay in that kind of care?
Speaker 2:So we try to make sure that it's not delaying anybody too long.
Speaker 2:However, usually because we do take insurance, it's insurance based and so if an insurance is the one that's going to be pushing a referral, then your hands are kind of tied. We have to go by what they are asking. But generally speaking, some insurances that aren't too picky it could be as simple as clarifying the order when the evaluation is done, submitting it to the doctor. If the clarification of order is for an occupational therapy plan of care versus a physical therapy plan of care, is for an occupational therapy plan of care versus a physical therapy plan of care. But funny, you kind of bring that up because I've been on a couple of forums where this has been a hot topic of how do you manage a caseload where you have both PTs and OTs in the clinic treating pelvic floor. And I mean the answer is is I'm not a PT, I cannot carry out a PT plan of care, just like a PT can't carry out an OT plan of care, just like a PT can't carry out a no T plan of care.
Speaker 2:So patients generally stay with one discipline or the other because we treat our patients primarily through insurance, but our cash-based patients, that can be a different story if they're being seen on a different sort of like a wellness sort of thing or depends on kind of how the plan of care is written.
Speaker 1:And um, uh, since becoming this pelvic floor therapist, what is like the common population or diagnosis that you see um when you're treating these patients?
Speaker 2:Ooh, common diagnoses with patients. It's, it's hard to say, there's like a running list of things. Um, many people, many women, tend to struggle with problems with incontinence. Um, but I wouldn't say just incontinence, I would say incontinence and pain probably are the two things that I see most common pain with various things, various reasons.
Speaker 1:Yes, and yes, I was given the opportunity to treat a few pelvic floor patients while I was kind of taking over for while you were gone, and I thought it was a very interesting. It opened the horizon for me in so many ways and I always say like sometimes you treat one and you're like this is not for me. And then sometimes you keep going and you're like, okay, let me give it a few more. You know tries, and I surprisingly actually enjoyed my time. It was actually interesting because I thought I was going to be like, no, this is, I can't do this.
Speaker 1:But yes, I learned so much, um, especially because I found out that there's not a lot of awareness of pelvic floor therapy in just general population. I see people that like, oh, they come in and they're like I've been dealing with this problem for so long. I had no idea that pelvic floor therapy was an option, and it wasn't until they went to their doctor and was like, is there anything I could do about this? And then it was then that they were recommended or they knew of somebody that underwent the same thing. That was like, hey, you should give this a try. What do you think, as an OT or even as PTs, we could do better to help promote this kind of awareness to everybody, to women, to, I mean men go through pelvic floor therapy as well. What is something that we could do better to help expand this to everybody out there that's listening to us, to everybody out there that's listening to us.
Speaker 2:So I think that's a really good point and a good question, and I can't say that I have every answer to how we can increase awareness. But it's kind of what comes natural for an OT, because as an OT we've always had to advocate for the profession and always had to work on getting orders, regardless of the setting that you work in and I've worked across just about every setting. So pelvic floor therapy is not new. It's been around. Some of the pioneers have been practicing to over 20, 30 years in pelvic floor rehab and you could argue even longer than that If you think about certain populations like, say, spinal cord injuries and things right.
Speaker 2:When you're talking about helping somebody to regain bladder or bowel control and you're talking about bladder and bowel programs, that is a form of pelvic floor therapy. We just didn't have the fancy words for it back then, or maybe even now for some units.
Speaker 2:So I think it's kind of a larger issue in the medical field in general, because not all doctors necessarily refer out to pelvic floor therapy when they hear different issues that people are having, and so it's an education for not only people that are needing the treatment but those that can prescribe it. But it's kind of a societal issue as well, right, Talking about issues that you have related to bladder bowels, reproductive issues are considered to be sort of personal and it's not something you talk about because it's a sensitive area?
Speaker 1:Yes, it is.
Speaker 2:So because it's a sensitive area, it's not something you're going to share when you're just a night out with the girls having dinner or watching football or baseball or whatever out with the girls having dinner or watching football or baseball or whatever You're not talking about, okay? Well, you know what I peed on myself as I was jumping up laughing at that joke, or while I was sitting here watching the game and then somebody scored and I peed on myself as I jumped.
Speaker 2:We don't talk about those things, or if we did, we're probably laughing about it and kind of make it seem like no big deal. So if it were a topic that people were open and comfortable to speaking about, it probably would have more awareness, where people are comfortable even sharing that they're going through it and that there is recognize that there is a problem.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 1:Or that there is something that can be done about it, or that there is something that can be done about it, and I also feel like, especially with things like the podcast and a platform for social media, I was talking to a patient recently and they were talking about how they actually started looking for ideas to treat certain pelvic floor issues because it is a sensitive topic kind of on their own, whether it be searching online or through social media with TikTok nowadays, instagram and they look for these.
Speaker 1:Of course, you have to kind of check and make sure that these pelvic floor specialists that are providing this information online are also these pelvic floor specialists that are providing this information online are also legit pelvic floor specialists, not just some random, you know um health guru that's wants to make up things and then eventually spread misinformation about things, things like this. But I feel like it is more accessible nowadays. The platform is there and it is just being able to spread awareness not only to the patients that are experiencing this, but also to the providers. I have a few things that I would like to say about that, but that's for another topic. I think, especially when it comes to understanding, like as a woman, sometimes these conditions are not necessarily taken as serious when someone brings it up, so I think that's also another conversation in itself.
Speaker 1:That's a whole other conversation, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:So, kyra, when you bring up kind of patients looking up information on social media and such and I get that a lot as well I get a lot of people that say I learned this or I first found out about pelvic floor therapy because somebody on TikTok or Instagram or whatever platform they're using, and I think that that's a small amount of folks that use those types of platforms or that have access to it.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's true.
Speaker 2:But I do also find that we kind of already know a lot of what we practice and if you think, historically or just ancestrally, that some cultures if we're talking about, say, women that have gone through childbirth, and there are certain things that cultures do for a woman to heal her body, that aren't necessarily what they may not even have the same words we use in pelvic floor therapy, but the ideas are similar or the same that help in healing as well, and so some of them are really ancient and we just really don't realize it, like a lot of of general practices can be um in therapy, um, and so some people that are a little bit older as well know some of these things and don't realize that they already have some of that knowledge Right that it falls under pelvic floor therapy correct due to either tradition or just passed down generations.
Speaker 3:Yes, okay, yeah, yes how do you use some of those traditional practices to inform your practice today?
Speaker 1:yeah, that's a good one. Your practice today, yeah, that's a good one. That's that question, okay. Okay, you said how, oh, do you use um traditional practices as a, as an approach to kind of like the practice that you've also learned nowadays?
Speaker 2:So yes, it's kind of tricky because every every person's different and what, what somebody might respond to, may not necessarily work for any person. Um, but I also have to kind of get an idea of how a person's going to respond as well, because some people are open to discussing what they might have kind of already in their toolbox already or kind of what their family has passed down. So I generally like to know what things people have tried, if anything, for their condition first, and then, if I consider somebody's cultural background, I might ask them a little bit of things in terms of if there's any things they do culturally, if they are aware of any of them, if they've practiced any of them.
Speaker 2:And then I go from there and seeing how they might or might not be open to some things that I know or some things that I've learned. So just to kind of give an example, let's say somebody that I'm treating early postpartum and they had diastasis recti because that's a huge thing right now, right Well? Some cultures traditionally have done things like belly binding right, and so, as if we look at it from treatment of today, what we're essentially trying to prevent is diastasis recti. It's the same thing.
Speaker 2:They just don't have the words for it of talking about belly binding, and it's just kind of a non um, a more um, not so much of an active approach, but just kind of a passive approach to helping a woman's body stabilize stabilize immediately postpartum and it can be carried out for a certain amount of time, and how you do it and what you use might be different between cultures or maybe not at all, but a form of being able to really take care of a woman's belly and recovery postpartum.
Speaker 1:Is there a lot of growing, I guess, in in terms of research. As with any practice, there's research and articles that come out each year regarding pelvic floor therapy. Is there a specific study or technique that you find you find very interesting or intriguing, um, that has popped up in in in the past few years or so, related to pelvic floor therapy or like a questionable? You're like this might be a myth or something where you're like I don't know, because I feel like I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think kind of with everything, you have the studies that can argue for a point and the studies that could argue against the point.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:And depending on what wagon you want to jump on right you can believe it or not want to jump on right, you can believe it or not Any that have really truly moved me in one way or another. Not really, but to be quite honest, I haven't had the time to really think that conceptually on any articles. With my little ones at home I barely have the energy to do a whole lot.
Speaker 1:So understandable right.
Speaker 1:So I don't give me another year or two before I might really be able to process that question because I feel like, yeah, like I don't know, there's like I was trying to look up because I was trying to do um. Pelvic floor therapy was actually one of the things I was considering to do on like my um, my paper for my like doctorate program, and there was one in particular I can't remember, but I was going to forward it to you because I thought it was very interesting, but I never got the chance. So if I find that article, I will definitely share that with you and I want to. I want to know what you think about it. Um, but yeah, um, but I think one of the biggest thing is um. In your opinion, what is pelvic floor therapy and what encompasses like pelvic floor therapy in general? Like, how do you define pelvic floor therapy and how would you describe this to someone that has no knowledge of like pelvic floor therapy?
Speaker 2:That's a good question.
Speaker 2:So every person that walks in the door that I see, we go over this because I like to know what they already know walking in.
Speaker 2:What if, if it was a doctor that referred them or whomever referred them, what they told them about what I do?
Speaker 2:Um, and so, even if they've gone to pelvic floor therapy before in the past, I like to give my own spiel, and basically what it comes down to is it's really it's therapy that happens to be in a special part of the body that happens to land in the center of everything, and so anything we do is connected to the pelvic floor, to the pelvic floor.
Speaker 2:There are a group of muscles that do sit at the base of the pelvic floor and attach to the pelvis and can be altered by something just within those muscles or something lying outside of those muscles, and it can go as far as to the top of the head, down to the base of the toes. We can't take it out of the body. So it's my job to determine if those muscles are working in coordination with each other to be able to maintain the overall health of the person's body, and sometimes those things mean that you're having some issues that are just within those muscles or ligaments or the tendons or any of the structures that are the closest to it the bladder, the rectum or the uterus or it could be causing issues or something it could be causing issues or something can be causing an issue there further away in the body, like breathing or a shoulder injury, I'd say a large percentage of the time it is breathing.
Speaker 1:Yes, I was going to bring it into kind of that topic where I didn't realize how important breathing was in pelvic floor therapy and how much just not having control of your breathing can play a big factor in in the outcome of pelvic floor therapy and in the conditions and just fixing that is like a game changer when it comes to um, some of the symptoms that they're feeling, whether it be the urge or the incontinence and the pressure control. So, yes, that was one of my biggest realizations when I started seeing pelvic floor patients was how important breathing was, and even outside of pelvic floor therapy. Now I'm like, okay, we need to really focus on breathing and I wish I was wearing the shirt that said don't forget to breathe. I feel like that would be perfect for this podcast right now. But yeah, that was one of my biggest realizations was the importance of breathing.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, I think in all of my training the number one thing like when I first my very first class I took, our instructor said if you've learned nothing else this weekend, the number one thing you're going to do when you go back and see a patient because you're going to think you're going to fix everything and then you don't know where to start because there's so much breathing yes, and my question is when it comes to breathing, what is the appropriate way of breathing I feel like that's a big little discussion as well is when do you breathe in?
Speaker 1:When do you breathe out during therapy? Do you breathe in when you're contracting? Do you breathe out when you're relaxing? What's your take on that question?
Speaker 2:So breathing, I look to make sure how somebody is breathing first, because we should be able to breathe 360. We should be able to breathe into the front of our body, the sides of our body and the back of our body. And, um, not everybody is really in tune with how they breathe, or do they?
Speaker 2:breathe predominantly on one side or the other, and so that's usually my first thing is how do they breathe and are they using their diaphragm? And then, in terms of how they should breathe or what, I usually just to simple it down down, because then somebody can get really, really involved in it and throw themselves off and get all confused. When you're exerting yourself, you need to be exhaling.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So that you're not building pressure up inside of your body and when you're not exerting yourself as much as when you should be breathing in.
Speaker 1:Okay, that is actually, yes, the same thing that I have. That is actually, yes, the same thing that I have. Because I know, I think one of the PTs or PTAs that we were working with kind of went into the research and said that they said that there's no specific right way to breathe of when you breathe in and breathe out, but I believe the exact same thing you do, I feel like breathing out, especially when you're exerting to prevent that increase in that intra-abdominal pressure which is also contributing to some of that like leakage, if you are kind of not getting control of that breathing. I think I definitely agree with you, but I know that there's some people that might disagree. But, yeah, again, right, get those research articles Absolutely. Yes, yes, yes, have the right, get those research articles Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes. Have the evidence to support it one way or another.
Speaker 1:Yeah oh my goodness, yes, question from the audience. We've got questions from the audience here. Hi, my name is Steve Hi, steve Hi First time long time.
Speaker 3:I want to talk about stigma in women's health and access to women's health care. Oh, and what are your thoughts on that? What do you think about stigma and access to women's care? Thank you, I love the show.
Speaker 1:Yes, Thank you for yes. Oh, my goodness, we will report that to Dr. Some constructive criticism. Oh, so we got a great question here from our audience. Um, so the stigma and the access to pelvic floor therapy Um, can you speak a little bit about that? Um with us today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so kind of like I was mentioning earlier.
Speaker 2:You know the stigma it just it's a societal thing of like we don't often talk about the issues we're having with something that we consider to be so private, and so it's hard to bring that up to a doctor as well, that there are issues and we can argue that it's a doctor's job to be able to tease that out and say, like you know, are you having these problems? But it's only going to work if somebody is willing to share what the issues they are that are having In terms of access to care. I mean, I think, depending on your provider and what they're aware of and what they know and what they're willing to refer to, if that's what your insurance is requiring, that's going to be a big factor into whether somebody gets referred out for something like pelvic floor therapy or any really women's, women's health kind of treatment. Sometimes it means somebody might have to find a provider that fits more in line with their kind of philosophies and their thought Many many people in general are very in tune with their bodies.
Speaker 2:And there are those that aren't, but I think for some that are aware of what's going on and kind of the minute things that might be happening, my opinion there are a lot of providers out there that maybe kind of write off different symptoms people are having, whether it be because they just they think they've seen so many cases and they don't.
Speaker 2:Somebody doesn't fit the classic um picture or of a diagnosis Um, in my opinion, I would see another provider in that case. I mean, I know I've had to um when I didn't feel that my provider was really understanding or agreeing with what I was feeling. So, unfortunately for some it might be that, but somebody may not have that knowledge. They need to find a different provider and that's why things like the platforms are good or or because you know seeing somebody's video that they recognize.
Speaker 2:Oh my God, this could be an issue that could be fixed, I have to find someone else. Um, or people really have to find somebody that they feel comfortable and close with to discuss certain issues and ask I mean, when we, you know, before we all became so independent, you had your whole, your whole community to fall back on and find out.
Speaker 1:you know, that's how the older generation helps people to understand what's going on in life and what's going to happen as as you're walking or as you're moving across the lifespan, and being able to share what happens, and so um yeah, but I feel like, um, I also see a lot of patients that struggle to find a pelvic floor specialist within their area, because I feel like, you know, we get patients from different you know sides of town and they're like, I've been looking for a pelvic floor specialist and I found, you know, found Melissa, and um, like, if you go through that problem, like you were saying and and that, and you're driving, uh, a little bit further, and then you realize, um, you know, maybe this pelvic floor specialist isn't for me, but there's really no other options, um, what is something that they could do? Um know, there was one recently that did like a virtual pelvic floor therapy. Is that like a common practice now? Is that something you would recommend? What do you think?
Speaker 2:There are some, some therapists that do do virtual appointments, virtual care. I mean. I think with anything you have to really kind of do your research and talking with somebody to make sure they're the right fit for you. I come across that a lot of people that have been searching for pelvic floor therapists didn't know they were around. But just like finding the right doctor, you know, I don't think that one therapist is the right fit for every person and I tell my patients I'm a hundred percent honest with them If I don't think I'm the best fit for them I will do whatever I can to help them. But for me that's just. That's just part of my ethics and how.
Speaker 1:I practice and, like you know, I.
Speaker 2:I've taken you as far as I can. I don't I in my box to help you with these other portions, but I might be able to guide you to somebody else and hope that they can help you. I always tell my patients if, even after they've left, whether it was discharged because they were better or whatever the reason, they're welcome to call, email whatever they need to if they had questions. I don't think I think there's lots of patients out there to help, so I don't. I don't feel like I'm in competition with anybody.
Speaker 2:I feel like I, you know I have no problem referring them out. If I don't, I'm not the right fit for them, I don't have the right tools to help them. In terms of virtual appointments, yeah, that's absolutely. That's become very popular with some people. Again, you'd have to make sure they're the right fit, that they provide the right services, because I do think there are a handful of conditions that it's just really hard to treat virtually and you probably can only get a certain amount of recovery or a certain amount of change, virtually Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and especially when it comes to you know, can this be treated externally or internally? You know, I think that plays a factor in all of this as well, and the complexity of everything also plays a factor in that. But what do you think if you were to give three specific tips of someone looking for a pelvic floor specialist, that would be perfect for them. What are three things that they should consider or really think about when they're choosing their pelvic floor specialist?
Speaker 2:Three things, let's see. Okay, sometimes people do consultations before even doing an evaluation and I offer that sometimes, particularly when it's somebody that has a very complicated case and they're not quite sure, or maybe I'm not quite sure if I know I'm not understanding what their issues are or anything like that, or whether I might be the best fit. I think the flexibility in terms of you know I might be the best fit. I think the flexibility in terms of you know, do they have the flexibility of something like the consultation, of discussing or having a conversation with a therapist prior to an evaluation and the amount of knowledge they're able to provide prior to if that's what you want or needing? The other thing is you know when you're meeting them to see, just in general, how comfortable are you with them?
Speaker 2:Do you feel like they're providing information or providing you with the knowledge that you need to understand your own issues and condition? And then that's going to give you an idea of if they're going to be providing the information kind of throughout the time, because if I'm treating somebody, I want them to know what's going on. Give you an idea of if they're going to be providing the information kind of throughout the time, because if I'm treating somebody, I want them to know what's going on and what I'm seeing and how I'm thinking. They're doing and the process is going, but there are some therapists that might not, and so for me like I, I want to know hey, where do we land, where are we?
Speaker 2:right and I think that's important for somebody to understand where they're at in the process of of anything changing or not changing, and not changing isn't a bad thing.
Speaker 1:It would just be like a different approach, so kind of how much information and kind of how you mesh with the person, right, I think that's a big yes, personality feeling, that comfortability of opening up, feeling that comfortability of, of you know, opening up, cause I feel like if you don't get the whole history, um, it kind of impedes that overall progress and, uh, reaching that best possible outcome. I think, um when it comes to pelvic floor therapy.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, and then just the last thing is making sure that the therapist is not, is open and thinks outside the box and is not super rigid, because some therapists do have protocols they want to follow, and so, like any condition or any diagnosis in my mind, you can't just follow the protocol all the time.
Speaker 1:Put it in a box.
Speaker 2:You have to think outside the box and make sure that you're always the therapist you meet is demonstrating that they realize that sometimes you have to make a U-turn or you have to sort of change things up and be willing to let the patient know, that and not just be stuck, because, in the end, we're there to help the patient.
Speaker 2:It's not. It doesn't benefit me in any way. I'm there to just help them along the way, and so I have to be sure that I am. That's what I'm portraying to them, that I'm there for their benefit, to help them. And so you want to find that in a therapist that they are there for you.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's awesome. Um, do you have any uh uh closing remarks or closing thoughts regarding just our conversation here or pelvic floor therapy? Anything you want to let anybody know and where to find you or follow you on uh instagram social media, having me on the podcast.
Speaker 2:You can find me here at the corona hills physical therapy and wellness clinic um on social media. Yeah, let's talk social media you can find me at the pelvic sage on Instagram.
Speaker 1:Yes, Give that a follow because, yeah, I already follow you and I'm so grateful because you have taken me under your wing into all this pelvic floor stuff and I feel like you're always there If I have like a question or anything or I'm like hey, Melissa, I'm I'm thinking of this and like a PT mindset Can you help me change my approach and maybe give me a little bit of your insight on this? And you're always so open to teaching me, even though some of my questions sometimes I feel like that seems like not a very smart question, but you answer it anyways, without making me feel judged or anything. But thank you so much for being on our podcast. I enjoyed having you on here and I hope that you join us again for another you know, maybe OT-related, you know topic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, OT month, Woo-hoo yes happy OT month.
Speaker 1:Yes, anything special we're doing for OT month, maybe I'll join you back for OT. Yes, there you go. Yes, I'm looking forward to that, and maybe have Oliviaivia on on on here as well. There we go. Um, so, shout out to olivia and yeah, so, thank you so much and we hope to see you again. Thanks for having me and you guys. That's it for now. Um, hopefully next time we got dr matt with us again, but for now, saying goodbye, ky here. Yeah, see you guys next time. Deuces Bye.
Speaker 3:Well, we hope that you enjoyed this episode, because I will tell you, this was just exciting. It was exciting for me. We're looking forward to the next episode. And for all of you out there, don't forget to like and subscribe. Stay tuned, because this month's podcasts are centered around Occupational Therapy Month, and so share this with your occupational therapy friends, ask them to join. I'm going to give a special shout out to a friend of mine who lost her life earlier this year. This OT month is dedicated to you, kerry. Shout out to you and shout out to your family. Our prayers are with you and your family, as always, and I know you're in heaven listening down. Anyways, you all, take care. Thank you for listening to the podcast. Oh, before I forget, don't forget to like and subscribe to the podcast. That would be really helpful. Anyways, that's my time. I'm Dr Hanson and I'm out. Take care.
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