To The Moon

In 2010, a young man named Kan Gao's grandfather would become seriously ill. Unbeknownst to anyone at the time, this tragedy would inspire one of the most introspective and emotionally resonant video game projects in recent memory.

Join Adam and Austin as they laugh, cry, and banter their way through To the Moon and its sequels, a series about lingering regret, altered memories, and the fragile search for meaning at the end of it all. 

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Transcript

Introduction - What is the Sigmund Corp Series

Speaker 1 0:00

No, no, no, I think I think that's good. I'm gonna say something else first, because I we didn't even talk about like Alma. So I want to bring in the idea that um Alma?. Anya. Alma's the girl from fear.

Speaker 2 0:11

Okay. This is like the third time you've done that.

Speaker 1 0:19

Welcome back to another episode of the Games Gone By Podcast. It is Saturday, February 21st, at the time of this recording. I'm your host, Adam, and joining me as always, the gaming expert and enthusiast and Sigmund Corp, employee of the month, Austin. Austin, man, you've been on a roll with the game suggestions recently.

Speaker 2 0:35

Yeah, man. I I am very excited for this one. I'm ready to cry. I'm in I'm like, I'm I am locked in. I I love these games, and I'm ready for the tears.

Speaker 1 0:44

It would certainly not be the first video game that's made me cry, but I think it's it's the first one that made me cry as many times as like over and over again. Like every game. So so today we're gonna be talking about to the moon, or I guess like the Sigmund Corpse series, the To the Moon series. People call it different things, but essentially it's it's the game to the moon with its prequels and kind of spin-off DLC and inside um stories that are involved. You know, at this point there's like seven of them total or something, but there's really three main ones, and the the side stuff kind of groups into each one. Uh, and this is a fantastic game, set of games that are all built in RPG Maker, and they're all that 16-bit pixel art style. They're super narrative heavy. Uh, they're just amazing. Um, Austin, I you know, I had never played these at all before this. I know you had played, did had you played all of them before we started?

Speaker 2 1:36

Yes, I had played every single one. I first played to the moon probably back in like 2014, 2013, something like that. So a couple years after it came out, and I just fell in love with it and kept up with the series throughout. Like I never played any of them like on launch day. It always was like a few months after it had come out, I was like, oh, there's a new, there's a new free bird game. Like, I gotta go play that. And then every time I was like, ah, this game's so good. Uh, because all these games are just so good.

Speaker 1 2:04

Yeah, well, being that they're kind of part of that like uh 2010's indie renaissance, you you weren't getting um, you know, huge ad campaigns for them on various sites. You may it would be very easy to miss the the release of the next ones. So development began on this game, uh, To the Moon, the first one, around 2010, after the creator Khan K is it Kin? It's Khan. It's Ken. I think it's it's K-A-N. Okay, I thought I'd type out there for a second. Can Gao was confronted with questions about mortality when his grandfather experienced a life-threatening medical condition. The Wikipedia was vague about it, which fits because so is so are the games. There's like a vague illness in every single one of the games.

Speaker 2 2:42

Every illness in this game is like illness.

Speaker 1 2:46

Yeah, yeah. But it does, it does what it needs to. Um, and and that confrontation with, you know, the inevitability of his death, of his grandfather, it's kind of what directly shaped this game's central premise, which is the idea of rewriting someone's memories at the end of their life to give them a less uh regret-filled passing, is maybe the most elegant way to say that. And this was released in 2011 uh under Gal Studio Freebird games. And to the moon really stood out at the time because it there was a lot of other RPG maker games coming out at the time that played a lot like these traditional RPGs. I remember playing one called like a slime bent on revenge, where you were basically a party of monsters, like your very typical Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy, like slimes and bats, and the heroes came into your forest and were just like killing your family, like they were a freaking like Bohemian raiding party in the 1500s or something. And um, but this game really moved away from all of that. And instead it stripped away a lot of these traditional RPG mechanics. There's no real battles, there's very minimal puzzles, and instead it's it's using the whole RPG framework for a really like pure emotional storytelling experience. And I think it uh it nails it, I would say.

Speaker 2 3:48

I mean, oh yeah, I mean, like I said, I cry every time I play any of these games, even to this day, like even replaying all of them. I'm like, like I know what happens, and I'm still like tearing up trying not to like ball at some of these moments. So like I think it definitely nails the emotions. And I think around this time there was a lot of that RPG Maker like experimentation, because I remember a bunch of these little like weird indie horror games that were coming out of RPG Maker. I remember watching like a lot of the like Marco Pliers and like big streamers of that day doing things like IB or Corpse Party or things like that, and these like kind of weird horror things. And uh this kind of took that same approach, but with a more emotional bend instead of the horror stuff, right? It removed all those RPG elements, but instead of going the scary route, it took a much more heartfelt emotional route.

Speaker 1 4:40

Absolutely. And and for those who aren't familiar with RPG Maker, it's kind of just it's the idea is like a drag and drop 2D game creation tool. It comes in with all these built-in sprites and sets and dialogue boxes and little event systems, but there's still a lot of custom scripting you can do. I think it was uh written in the Ruby script. So, like if you were familiar with that, you could you could do really impressive stuff with it. And of course, Freebird ends up getting a lot of these third-party uh community-built tools and assets and hiring artists for it and whatnot. And so there's really an enhanced level of what like I've I've probably put like 300 hours into RPG Maker and made about a 14-minute unfinished garbage game. So I'm I'm extremely impressed with that they're able to do with this. And a lot of that is that the custom assets and the custom scripting that takes it to the next level.

Speaker 2 5:23

That's gonna be our bonus episode when uh when we play your your 14-minute game and uh really, really just dig into it, and you know.

Speaker 1 5:31

I was obsessed with uh world of darkness at the time, so it's like the beginning of someone becoming a vampire, and that's about where it stops.

Speaker 2 5:37

Um we'll we're gonna get like 45 minutes out of it. I I can feel it.

Speaker 1 5:42

It's literally the like five-minute intro to Vampire the Masquerade before gameplay even starts, is my entire game. Yeah. Perfect, perfect. But yeah, when this game was released, it ends up receiving really strong critical reviews and really strong audience reception, and particularly its writing and its music. So, you know, there's no voice acting in this whatsoever. And so it's all written dialogue in the in the music. Oh my god, dude. Uh, we're gonna we're gonna talk about the music a lot throughout this. The music in this game probably does a better job kind of setting the tone and the atmosphere for any particular scene that you're going through than almost any game I have ever played in my entire life. From the NES era to a game that came out last year. I mean, it is just wondrous.

Speaker 2 6:22

Yeah, the the music is always and it and it plays a big part in the story and in the narrative for for multiple of these games. Like a lot of it is revolving around music and the power music has in people's lives and stuff too. So it it really integrates into the story well, but just hearing it and the way it sets the tone is so awesome.

Speaker 1 6:42

It really is, and and that's a large part of I think why it was received so well and why people thought like this game does such a good job with its narrative focus delivery and and it's its narrative-focus framework. And it doesn't, it didn't need battles, it didn't need puzzles, really. I mean, there's there's like some puzzles, but they're pretty minimal. And you know, there's a lot of games that you would call maybe like visual novels, or maybe something like the Telltale games that are doing something similar and that they're getting rid of traditional combat and yada yada. But for some reason, I have always found those to just be somehow less interesting than what this game is doing. Like just I was I was never bored with these. And one part of that might be because they're fairly short, right? Each of them is like in the four-hour range, but at no uh, and maybe there's like parts of some acts that drag a little, but for the most part, I was like really locked in and really intrigued by these games from from start to finish.

Speaker 2 7:30

Yeah, I mean, that they're essentially like a TV mini-series, right? Like four episodes, well, or like four hours, like you call like a you know, two or three episode kind of mini-series almost for each of these games, is how you can kind of break it up because they're all broken into acts. So you can kind of like take these little segments and it they're very digestible. They're like it's so easy to get invested in and stay invested through the short runtime. And I think this game never tries to put a lot of gamey elements, like a lot of the telltale games and stuff, they they remove stuff, but there's still like some level of you have to hunt around and look for, you know, what's the what's the clue that's gonna get you to the next thing? And it's like, I don't care. Like, I think I think Dispatch did a really good job last year of taking out all those elements, and it's kind of more similar to what this is. Um, and and that game had like choices and stuff, and like kind of changed the way the narrative flowed based on your choices, whereas this doesn't have that, but it kind of takes a similar approach of we're just gonna remove all the gamey stuff. Like, like we don't and and I know dispatch has its like mini game, like its core mini game, but all the narrative stuff is done completely removed from gameplay, like this is right.

To the Moon - A Brief Overview

Speaker 1 8:44

Yeah, you know, we we mentioned the yes, the right, left, uh right, yes, and right and left, damn it. Left, yes, and right yes in Anthem. There was a part in here that I think was like uh kind of taking the piss at that idea, which was I was yes, yes, and definitely yes in in one of these games. Yeah. I thought that was pretty funny. Because yeah, there's really there's really not a ton of player choice, but by I think in no way does that work against against the game. Now that there's a lot going on in these games and they all kind of connect. So I struggled for a little while trying to figure out how we're gonna talk about this, but I think kind of dividing them up into three groups, starting with To the Moon and its two holiday special DLCs, followed by Bird Story and Finding Paradise grouped together, followed by Imposter Factory grouped with beach episode, is I think how we're gonna do this. So we'll get into To the Moon first. Um, the sort of overall plot summary here, just to give you guys an idea of the context, what we're gonna be talking about. The player controls these two doctors from a corporation called Sigmund Corp, and their names are Eva Rosaline and Neil Watts, and their job is to rewrite memories of dying patients. And their current patient, Johnny Wiles, he wants to go to the moon, but he cannot remember why. They ask him very close to the beginning, so why is your last wish to go to the moon? And he's like, I don't remember. All I know is that I wanted to go there. So they travel backward through Johnny's life through his memories, and they and they attempt to uncover like why this seemingly loving marriage that he had with his wife, River, seems very unfulfilled. You know, she ends up passing away of an illness just a couple years before he's dying. And they can tell there's something, you know, just from the uh first entering his memories and talking to like the oldest form of him, they can really tell something kind of left like a sour note on their relationship at the end, but he doesn't know what it is, and they don't know what it is. So that's part of why they're trying to discover this. And and River is like a socially distant woman, and she's obsessed with paper rabbits in the moon. And like I said, you know, that untimely passing really leaves Johnny desperate to figure out what happened to her. They describe her. We're gonna call her illness the terminal illness, and we're gonna call her social disorder the social disorder, because they don't really give it any more detail than that. And I think, you know, purposely so, right? Uh, but over the course of the game, the doctors help Johnny, you know, rest easy over the course of this story, which strikes like this this perfect balance of emotional and quippy dialogue with the atmospheric music composition, what we talked about, and just this totally charming and gorgeous art and animation style. And um, so that's sort of what the first game is in the simplest of terms.

Speaker 2 11:09

Yeah, for me, like this game to the moon is one of those, like this is in my top 15 of all time. Like, I absolutely adore this game. It is one of those that I think if the purpose of art, right, is to elicit emotion and like make you think and like you know make you feel something, then this game is a perfect example of why games should be considered art. Like it just oh yeah, it it grabs you and pulls you into this story, and the beginning can be kind of slow, right? Like, kind of as you hop into Johnny's memories and and start to see what's going on with River and how they're kind of disconnected, like it's a little blurry, it's a little confusing. I mean, I know even you struggled, kind of you you got caught in well, like you get caught into certain things that maybe the game doesn't want you to, or like, because it's it's obtuse, it's a little vague. It's like, what am I supposed to be focusing on here? But as you start to narrow down through Johnny's memories and kind of get to the core emotional crux of the game that comes in act three, it all just starts to piece together and it really hits this like emotional high that is so compelling by the end of the game.

*Spoilers Start Here* - The Emotional Climaxes

Speaker 1 12:24

Yeah, and we've we've sort of discussed off air how the experience of replaying this game is really enhanced by the fact that now that you even if you don't remember all the final details, you remember enough about the ending to make you really want to hunt out those details as you do it. And I had actually um I was experimenting with because you you told me that like your favorite brand of reaction content was to the moon reaction content. So I was trying to um kind of film myself playing a lot of these games, and I went back and watched myself do the first one. And being armed with the knowledge of how the game ends, going through it again, I just all these little details that they're so good about leaving. And including um I mean, these are like I said, the the art style is kind of a throwback to the 16-bit era, but obviously with a lot more detail in because of the technology improvement since then. And so the way they can deal with facial animations and facial expressions, even in that pixelated form, is so intense, and you can just see, you know, there's the scene where River is trying to make Johnny remember this conversation they had when they first met, and and you sort of find out later why he's blocked it from his memory, and and we'll get there. But she always has this huge sigh and like expression of disappointment whenever she tries this and he doesn't remember. And the first time through, I was like, Yeah, I'm also giving you a big eye roll and a sigh because I have no idea what the hell you were talking about. But but it really turns out that like he because he doesn't remember this, and she's trying her hardest in her uh socially disorderly way to get him to understand what she's referencing, and she's always just like so let down by the fact that nothing she's doing is is triggering that memory for him. And it's expressed so well in the animations.

Speaker 2 13:56

Yeah, so uh we probably should just kind of talk about what this game's two big emotional climaxes are. Because it's it's so hard to talk about this game without talking about those things.

Speaker 1 14:08

So like if you expected any type of spoiler-free episode here, I have bad news. It's impossible. It's from here on out, yeah.

Speaker 2 14:14

Yeah, like every everything that we say from now on, giant spoiler for every game, probably. Just go play all these first, come back and listen to us like gush about them.

Speaker 1 14:24

Much like the game, this episode is best experienced knowing what happens. So uh yeah.

Speaker 2 14:28

That's that's very true. I love it. Um so at Act Three, like as this game hits Act Three, you're you're going back through Johnny's memories and you find out that you cannot progress further in his memory. Like there's there's something blocking it. The machine won't let you go back, which is very unusual.

Speaker 1 14:45

Just to be clear, you start at old Johnny, and throughout the game, you are working toward baby Johnny, like it's linear.

Speaker 2 14:50

Right. And and once you hit like teenage Johnny, like high school years, as you try and go back further, you kind of hit a wall. And the doctors are very confused by this because they're like, we've never seen this before, like, this is really strange. Something must be wrong with the machine. So they kind of go at the machine, try and figure it out, and they come across some medical records that show that Johnny was given like a high dose of beta blockers, which has a side effect of causing memory loss. So, like, okay, that's why we can't figure it out. They kind of work out a patch to get through those beta blockers, and you're you're hit with the first of the two big climaxes. And I think this one worked best for you. So I'll let you talk about it.

Speaker 1 15:31

Yeah, and and to set a little bit of a context, you you're learning all these things about Johnny's childhood as you go through the game. So you find out that he he loves pickled olives, and he loves the animorph series, and he loves trains, and he loves these things. And so you get these notes throughout the game that go into a little log, and it's always kind of goofy and simple. It's like pickled olives, gross, but Johnny's favorite food, or like animorphs, Johnny's favorite childhood book series. But you you get to this point where you're going back in into this thing, into like an old memory, right? And it's like he's at his house and he's playing in the driveway, and his mom backs out of the driveway and she doesn't see him coming, and she hits him. And you're like, oh my God, like uh is this the thing he was blocking out, you know, like a horrible injury. But then you see Johnny run on scream, and it's like, no, no, no. He had a twin brother. And it turns out his twin brother is the one who loved pickled olives, and his twin brother is the one who loves anamorphs and trains. And I was, I was actually uh really enjoying the fact that I was kind of able to piece this together and just a couple minutes before it's really revealed, and I was like, no way. Is it like, is he gonna have a twin that died or something? And um, it's a really cool twist. Like, I was immediately in tears. Um, and it's and I thought it was really effective, and it just it hits really hard and it recontextualizes a bunch of stuff up to that point. And that's when you realize, okay, this is why we can't go further back in the memory. Because his mother, you know, I guess uh probably at the advice of some doctors, hopefully. She wasn't like black marketing some uh data blockers here. It ends up on this medication and a combination of like the trauma in the medication has caused him to just more or less forget everything past a certain point in his in his childhood, or like before a certain point in his childhood, I should say. So he doesn't really remember the Joey thing. Oh, God, there's another part where his mother calls him Joey at his wedding. And River's like, why'd she call you Joey? And it's like he doesn't even remember. He says, Oh, that's that was like my uncle's name. And sometimes she just calls me that as like a nickname. Um and you're like, oh, okay, I have no reason not to believe that. Right. Um but but there's all these little things like that that are immediately put into a different context. And um, yeah, like you said, I you said that wouldn't worked better for me. I think at the time, definitely part of that's just because I didn't, I did not catch on to some of the details of the next big reveal the way I did this one. But in retrospect, I mean I think they're both really powerful, and arguably this next one that I think I'm gonna let you get into more detail on was probably the more impactful one ultimately.

Speaker 2 17:49

Well, and I think you you bring up a really good point about even in in Joey's reveal, like the way this game kind of teases little things out as you're getting to that reveal. Like Rosalind even says something right before you get this reveal where she's like, Didn't you notice? Like, like something in Johnny's room was weird. And you start going, like, what was weird in Johnny's room? I think everything was fine, it looked totally normal. And then after the reveal happens, Rosalind's like, Johnny slept on bunk beds, and you're like, Oh my god, like of course, like what kid would have a butt? Like, like, of course, he had somebody living with him, like that makes sense. Like, so it's like these little things that they kind of drop in right before the reveal happens makes it so satisfying whenever you start to have it all click. So, really, really good stuff. And and we go back again in time, and like you were saying, we see you know, Joey read Animorphs, Joey was the one who liked pickled olives. Like, we kind of we kind of see these things and we we flash back to a previous memory where Johnny was at a carnival, and you you kind of you start by thinking it has to do with him and Joey's dynamic, and you're like running around the carnival playing with Joey, and you play like a little whack-a-mole game that's kind of goofy. Um and Johnny kind of wanders off the path and goes up to this like cliffside that's kind of overlooking the sea. Um, or it it seems like it's overlooking the sea, I guess. We don't really know. A body of water of some sort, yeah, exactly. Um, and Johnny's kind of sitting up there on his own, and you you see somebody walk on screen, and when as soon as they walk on screen, you see that it's River, and it's like young river, that Johnny doesn't remember this meeting of his future wife the very first time they met. He has no recollection of it. And so you get this really beautiful scene, it's like hand-drawn, illustrated of them like sitting on a log looking up at the moon. Absolutely gorgeous, like looking uh piece of art. And absolutely they're talking about they're just talking about their lives as like kids would, right? Johnny's talking about like, oh, what's your name? And Rivers, like, I don't want to say it's embarrassing, like people laugh at it, it makes them want to go to the bathroom. And Johnny's like, Wow, it can't, it can't be as bad as Johnny, everyone's name Johnny. And so like they're just having this little banter, and they're talking about making you know, constellations of like rabbits in the moon, and you you get this like recollection of, oh my god, that's why River's been making these like weird little rabbits the whole game, because she's trying to get Johnny to remember this moment, and she carries around a platypus with her, like most of the time that you see her throughout the game. That platypus that Johnny gave her at this meeting, and like he won it in like the carnival game, right? Like he won it in a carnival game, and he's like, Oh, you can have it. I'm totally the best at that game. I'll win another one next year. Right. And and this moment when you realize, like, Johnny doesn't remember any of this. And and he's never been able to, like, River and him have never been able to communicate about it because he doesn't know what she's trying to communicate, and she doesn't know how to tell him. Like, did you forget about the first time we ever met? Like, so it's like this really tragic thing, and and this obviously meant so much to River because she had such a hard time making connections with people that this like really genuine connection she made with this boy at this carnival that she was excited to see him again, and he just never shows up until he like asked her out years later with no context. And it's like such a tragic, like, uh, it it gets me every time. Every time I watch a reaction of this, I'm like, okay, it's okay.

Speaker 1 21:37

It's okay. Yeah. And there's there's so many little uh and this re this recontextualizes so many things leading up to the game. Everything just everything. Just like Joey's death did the same thing, right? Yeah. And there's you know, there's this one scene where he he's like in the lunchroom with his friend, and he talks about how one of the reasons he wants to ask this River Girl out is because he feels like he's boring and having a a I for lack of a better word, like a weird. Girlfriend would make him more interesting. And he later confesses this to her later in his life. Like, you know, I really wish our first meeting hadn't been soiled by such a selfish move on my part. And she lets out a big sigh like she's upset about it. And she is, but you don't realize that she's not upset because of that. I mean, she might be, but what she's really upset about is that that is not the first time they met. And she obviously remembers this and he doesn't. And that's the scene where she pulls out the hacky sack, and like that's supposed to make him remember because they also play with the hacky sack during this log scene. And of course, she doesn't remember that. And uh, you know, they make an agreement that they're gonna meet back here every year, but before the next one ever happens, you know, Joey dies and the beta blockers happen. So he never comes back to meet River on this log, which you have to imagine, River probably went there every single year of her childhood at the carnival. Right. You know, she probably was gonna go there regardless because she talked about, hey, this is my spot, but she's clearly wanting to see Johnny show up every time. Probably never happens, right? Is so disappointed. Yeah, and he walks up to her in school and it's just like, What you reading about? Like, right? She's like, with the platypus in her hand. I mean, she's like, How can you not remember me?

Speaker 2 23:07

Right. And and so as as this scene is ending, River even says, like, what if what if you forget or you can't find your way back here next year? And Johnny says, Well, then we'll just meet on the moon, silly, right on the rabbit's tummy, which is like what they they, you know, use the moon as their as their rabbit constellation. Yeah. And you see this line, and you're like, it all just clicks as like, okay, this is why he wants to go to the moon, because River's gone now. She's left his life, and he has this like innate desire that he knows, even with all the beta blockers, even with everything that has happened in his life, there's this call to go to the moon to meet back with River. And it can kind of almost be like a um, like a like a parallel to like an afterlife or like a heaven, right? Of like, I want to go to River. I need to see her. And it's like the moon is that for him, and he needs to go back to his wife that he now misses, and like there's this missing piece of him. And it's just so freaking heartbreaking. But like, but like sweet. It's like a sweet heartbreaking. It's ah, it's such a beautiful scene. It gets me every time, literally, every single time I watch it. I am crying. Every single I'm tearing up talking about it right now. Like, you can probably hear it in my voice.

Speaker 24:23

You look like you're starting to struggle with it again.

Speaker 2 24:26

You can hear it in my voice, I bet. I just, I love this scene. It's so beautiful. Me too, man.

Speaker 1 24:31

My face is like bloodshot around right now because I'm trying to keep it in. And there's really, again, there's just so many cool details. You know, there's this one thing that she does over and over uh toward the end of her life, is she keeps making these origami rabbits. And she always asks Johnny, What does this remind you of? And he's like, I uh a rabbit. He's like, Yeah, but what else? And he's like, I don't know. And then eventually she makes one that is like yellow in the center with black or dark blue appendages and ears, because that's truly the constellation they saw in the sky, right? Yeah. And she's like, What is the color? Like, what about the color? And he's like, I don't know. It's blue and yellow. And so, I mean, too, it basically just seems like until her dying day, she was just always asking him, Yeah, but what else? Yeah, but what's every time he's just, I don't know.

Speaker 2 25:12

And that's and that's you know, on that log, as Johnny is trying to piece the constellation together, he's like, Oh, and that's the ears, and she says, What else? And you know, so it's like it's a direct callback to that scene.

Speaker 1 25:25

So it's like, uh That's right, you know, what else? Oh, and there's the tale, oh, and what else? Oh, there's the mix.

Speaker 2 25:32

Yeah, so yeah, it's it's such a good callback. And and it's it's just so well done that like all these things, and and you're not gonna piece it all together the very first time you play it or see it, right? It's they're through they throw a lot of information at you in this scene, but every time you watch it again, I mean, even up until just before recording this podcast and like playing these games again, I was still re-watching reactions and seeing like little different things that I didn't notice the first time. And it's like it's so well put together for this scene. And yeah, it's it's just it's very, very effective.

Speaker 1 26:09

And you know, we're skipping over a lot of parts of it because the the storytelling is honestly it's so dense and it's so tight and it's so well paced that in order to talk about all of it, we'd basically just be retelling the game and it's full runtime.

Speaker 2 26:20

Uh which yeah, well, we we don't want to be here for like the 12 hours it would take to recap all these games.

To the Moon's Best Moments

Speaker 1 26:26

Um But I don't know if there's any particular scenes you want to talk about just that really stand out in your mind. You know, I really liked the one where they're on the horses because since you're going backwards, you're not entirely sure why they're suddenly just riding horses together. And of course, you know, the doctors are there, Neil and Rosaline, and they're uh and to just to be clear about this, like they're not really ever in the scenes, right? They do this thing where they disable like memory detection or whatever. So they're kind of invisible, they're observers. But they get to, you get to ride around on these horses and you're trying to collect your little memory orbs to proceed to the next uh set of memories where you do the puzzle and then like the scene changes. And it's like, this is really cute, this is cool. I I'm not sh sure why they're suddenly like really into um equestrian, but so be it. But then the very next scene, which is you know, going backwards, is when you find out that River finds out that she's, you know, uh autistic or whatever and ends up being socially disordered in her adult life. And one of the things that the doctor recommends is equine therapy. And it to me that was just so touching because it's like despite the fact that Johnny almost seems like impatient and frustrated toward the beginning of the game with his inability to understand what the hell she's going on about, you can tell that he really cared and he really wanted to try to help her do the things he did understand about her. Like he did understand that he she had this social disorder, and he wanted to like make that as easy as possible, and he wanted to work with her on that. And so, oh, I just thought that was such a touching back-to-back scene. And I think the reverse storytelling of it like really makes it hit harder.

Speaker 2 27:53

Yeah, I was actually going to just kind of build off of that in general with the reverse storytelling just working really well to kind of give context to everything you're seeing. It they build a certain level of mystery and like what is going on? Like, I don't know if I fully understand, and then they so quickly like give you more building blocks every every new scene. You get another little piece of like, okay, this is why this was this way further down the line. So it's like this this almost like Benjamin Button style, like reversing of age. It works really well to to kind of give context to everything that comes before. I don't think there's any particular scene before the big twist, but after it. Dr. Watts and and Dr. Rosalind here, they realize, Dr. Rosalind particular, realizes that the only way to get Johnny to the moon is to remove River from his life, because that's what he needs to go to the moon, is the he needs the motivation from a young age to be an astronaut and go to the moon. So she has to remove River from his life. And there's this scene where you know that they have this like kind of weird, it's it's one of the most gamey parts of the game where like you're going through the school hallways and there's like zombie evas, they call them zombievas, uh, which uh is like kind of funny and goofy. This game is really funny and goofy when it's not like ripping your heart out, um, which I think is what is so compelling about it is the way it combines this like very quippy dialogue and very like referent like referential, like fourth wall humor, with these just like super emotional and impactful moments. Uh, and it balances those so well, in my opinion. But it's it's right after you get through this this like gamey scene that you get to the scene where Dr. Rosalind removes River in the in their first encounter in high school, whenever like he's going to ask her out, and she just kind of moves River away, and she goes and brings Joey like back, like lets Joey avoid getting hit by the car and lets him grow up in Johnny's memory. And you get this like really tragic and heartbreaking scene where River is removed from all of these important moments in Johnny's life, and like she's no longer there. The horseback riding that you talked about, she gets removed from that scene, and like they go to the movies, she's not in that scene anymore, and like Joey gets replaced in a lot of these scenes, but there's just you feel something missing, and there's this like beautiful vocal track that plays in the background called Everything Is Alright, and it's just the most like this is the scene when I was when I first played this game. I was like sitting in the living room of my of my parents' house. Uh I was like, oh, I was like, I was like back home from college for the weekend, and I'm like sitting here playing this game in my living room, and I'm like, my eyes are watering, and like I I gotta go, I gotta like go to my bedroom because otherwise it's just like like burst out crying in my living room. So like I had to take my laptop and go in my bedroom. I had to like go to my bedroom because I'm just like, I'm I'm not able to hold it together during this scene. It's so sad.

Speaker 1 31:04

And there's uh the the vocal track is interesting because it's so I I want to say this without sounding like I'm being critical because I'm not at all. I absolutely love this, but it sounds like very amateur in a good way. Like it sounds like someone who doesn't actually have a lot of vocal training, but just has a naturally beautiful voice and it's a little raspy, it's a little nasally, but in a way that just feels like someone who is just a real person experiencing this game. It almost sounds like she is struggling to keep it together as she sings the track, and it just hits so hard. It's so good. I've listened to it like a dozen times now outside of the game. Um, and it's played over this montage of uh is this the part where you're seeing his journey up to being like the NASA thing, or is it before that?

Speaker 2 31:44

Yeah, it's it's it's tied together. So it's like you it's like you see River disappearing from scenes and it's replaced with his journey to NASA. So it's like that's right. Those two things are intertwined together.

Speaker 1 31:56

Because you don't understand that, uh, or I guess at this point you do sort of understand that he's trying to meet her on the moon. So I guess that's what really what makes it sadder is it's like, well, the wife is being taken away, but ultimately like it's so that he can get to her again. But what does that mean if they were never married? And so it's kind of confusing, but also very not like confusing as you don't know what's happening, but like you don't know what's about to happen. Because what does it now mean for her to be gone? What's on the moon waiting for him? But it's so emotional because you're literally seeing her like Thanos snapped out of all of these scenes that you've you've seen her in before, and he's going through it, and oh man, I yeah, I I think uh the next game has a similar section with a vocal track, and both times it's like in the first one I messaged you, and the second one you messaged me, and we were like, dude, the vocal track is getting me, like I cannot keep it together.

Speaker 2 32:36

Every time with a vocal track.

Speaker 1 32:38

Yeah. Yeah, you know, you mentioned uh some of the humor, and that that is wound in really well, I feel like. Because, you know, what is this, 2011? Did Avengers come out in 2012? Uh is that right? That sounds right.

Speaker 2 32:51

It's it's definitely right around that time.

Speaker 1 32:53

I think that is what a lot of like the cultural consensus of when we went a little like two-peak quip, that was maybe the apex of it. That's like when it still worked, and from there it got it got worse. So this is around that same time. But it I think it's it's amazing because it stays, they stay out of the way when they need to. Like during the whole log scene we talked about and during these the scene with Joey getting hit by the car. Rosaline and Watts are not popping in, making jokes while that's happening. They're the observers like you are, sitting back and watching it. It's really just in the kind of more gameplay elements on the way there, where you're collecting the little memory tokens to move back into different spans of Johnny's life, that they have these quips, but it's a really fun dynamic between them. They almost kind of have like a coworker rivalry going on. They're always poking fun at each other. Uh, but though those two are hilarious. The humor is great. Uh, the the writing is just like, I mean, this this is now the second game in a row we've played where I'm like, do you see why I just don't care about voice acting? Because the writing is just like voice acting. Uh it's just, but like, I it always is so much better when I do it in my head, is all so but no, I just the writing is so great. It's so funny, but it's so deep when it needs to be. And you know, maybe the humor won't resonate for everyone. Like, I'm not gonna say everyone will find all of all of the jokes landing, but I certainly found that they landed way more often than they didn't. And it knows when to, you know, make light of a situation, when to bring that levity in, and when to just stop. And and the music's part of that too, right? The music gets a little goofier and a little more percussion and whatnot in the funnier moments, but then it knows when to either just cut the music or fade into the slow, deep piano sections when the emotion is supposed to hit its heights. And all I mean, it's just between the animations and the art, the music choice and the dialogue, this game can instantly take you from laughing at something that was hilarious 45 seconds ago to crying because it's sad as hell. And it just can do it in the blink of an eye, and it's so good. It's so good.

Speaker 2 34:43

It's really impressive that a game, like not to diminish this art style or anything, because obviously we've talked about how amazing it is, but when you see what we see in modern day with things like Claire Obscure or Deaf Stranding or whatever, of just like these like incredible production values and like just this like really realistic and like super deep realism of these games, and then you go back to this, but this is so effective at just completely transporting you into its world. I mean, I think we even made a comment at one point of just like as soon as you boot the game up, you just you feel engrossed in this world. You just like you feel like you're a part of it, and it's so impressive how quickly it can do that with its like limited resources and RPG maker like stylings. Like it's so impressive.

Speaker 1 35:29

Uh, there's there's a couple more details I think we should probably bring up just because they're they're actually kind of important. But as we said, the the game is just so dense, it's easy to overlook them. But with the the way the game does reverse storytelling, a lot of times it drops these little hints that my mind was always going chaotic, like wondering, what is that about? What is that about? Oh, she's got this terminal illness, and they're talking about how they she'd rather not get the surgery and instead use the money to build this house. Like, why is she gonna do that? And then uh during this scene, it turns out that's not even that important. What's even more important is that there's someone named Anya that she really wants to build the house for. And Johnny says, but she's not even, and then she cuts him off. So I'm thinking, she's not even your real daughter. She's not even our daughter. No, it turns out not even a human being, a lighthouse. Um, and and that lighthouse ends up being really important. And it turns out if I, every single time I went down this crazy manic thought path, if I had waited about six and a half minutes for it to get to the next story beat, I I would have had a better understanding. But there is this lighthouse that they that she finds when they're on one of their dates, and she really likes it. And she's kind of obsessed with lighthouse, right? When I think when he first asked her out in high school, she's reading an encyclopedia entry about lighthouses, and she's like, He's like, hey, what are you doing? Like, um, did you know that the lighthouses were built in Mama, you know, just just just total um like Steve Urkel going on, but in a charming way, right? Like River, River's adorable. And they end up getting married at this lighthouse. And when they when they talk about building their dream home, they want to build it near the lighthouse, which she names Anya. And the her whole thing is like, I want, I want there to be people who live here and appreciate this lighthouse the way I do. And the lighthouse symbolism comes into the kids on the log scene that we talked about, where she's talking about all the stars in the sky. She thinks of them as like lighthouses trying to signal to each other, but the tragedy is that like they're all so far away that they can't, they won't ever be able to, you know, communicate with each other and make a real connection, which of course is symbolic of like her struggles. So it's oh man, like the the symbolism and the imagery in the callbacks are just so well done all throughout the game to the point where we're probably not even thinking about half of them. Like there's just so many, but man, it's it's it's good, it's so good.

Speaker 2 37:24

It it really is like everything ties back into the log scene. It's like I it's either Joey or the log, right? And that's why this this like kind of dual climax, as you frame as you phrase it in the notes, is so effective. Because it's like everything in this game can get can be contextualized by these two moments, and and we see this where we've now removed River, right, at the end of the game, and to kind of wrap it up, Johnny, at least in his memories, right? He's on his deathbed, but in his memories, he does make it to NASA, and there's this really uncomfortable feeling because River's gone now, like he's made it there, he's going to the moon, he's made it to NASA, but she's disappeared. So it's like even at one point, Rosalind even says something like, you know, what about you know, we always succeed because we are awesome, and Watts is like, this isn't a success. Like, there's this there's this real like tragedy to like, we've made it there, we've done his dream, but at what cost? And as you're kind of going through NASA and like seeing NASA from Johnny's point of view, as you're getting to the end of Johnny's life, you actually see River walk in because she's also made it to NASA, because she did the same thing, because that's what Johnny would have expected her to do in his memories, because this is all in Johnny's head, so it's like there's this really sweet reunion scene where they come together and they do the rest of their training together, and it kind of culminates in this scene where Johnny's playing a song on piano, and throughout the whole game, Johnny's been playing this song that he's named Four River. He hasn't actually given it a name, it's kind of this temporary name called Four River, and it's kind of this redundant song that just plays a couple of the same notes over and over again. Yeah, but it's so it's it's so effective, it just really gets you in. You're just like it kind of becomes the theme song of the game, and it's such a great song, it's so immediately catchy and recognizable. And you get to the end of the game here, and he's playing it in NASA, like in you know, this kind of side room, he's playing the piano, and River walks in and she's like, Oh, like, what's the name of this song? Like, I really like it. And and the person next to like, oh, he's named it to the moon, and you're just like, ah, and you're like, God dang it! It's just the game just keeps repeatedly beating you down with emotional moments, but like in the best way.

Speaker 1 39:52

Um works so well.

Speaker 2 39:55

It does, and and you kind of get this like really nice scene of them going up into the spaceship together, and like you get these flashes of River coming back into all these important moments in Johnny's life, and like Joey's there too now, and it's like it's almost like the perfect version of what Johnny's life could have been if he hadn't forgotten this, like, these two crucial moments in his life. And it ends with this like really nice, another like hand-drawn illustration of the of the rocket ship going to the moon and Johnny flatlines and like the game rolls to credits. And it's just it's gorgeous, man. Everything, everything in the last hour of this game is just peak to me. It's so beautiful and effective, and so well written, and so well like paced and put together. It's it's it's incredible. It's why this game is my like in my top 15 of all time. It's it's gorgeous.

Speaker 1 40:53

Just like a millennial reference here. The last hour is like watching Littlefoot's mom die over and over. It's it just really has that like, why am I crying so much? And I can't stop. It's it's it's really fantastic. Um and the thing is, this game's like the story is so detailed and very in-depth. Uh, but a lot of the presentation is very simple and it works so well in that you know, I always talk about how as good as music in a lot of modern games is, it's really there's you know, there's god, look at the Claire Obscure soundtrack. There's something like 80 songs on it. There's so many different variations, and everyone has like so many different layers of different instruments and stuff coming in. There's only like five tracks in this game, and most of them are very minimal piano. But because of that, they stand out so well and they work so well in the scenes, and it plays in with the, you know, the the details of the animations are pretty intense for 16-bit, but a lot of the art style still kind of reminds you of like a Final Fantasy VI or a Chrono trigger. And the the gameplay is pretty simple, and all of that simplicity works together so well to just make something that's both really meaningful and deep, but also very approachable and very accessible. And yeah, like we mentioned, you can maybe get caught up on the wrong details occasionally or overloaded by some of those, but but for the most part, the storytelling is really straightforward. Yeah, I don't know, man. I just like I'm about to tear up again, even thinking about some of these ending scenes, because it's just so effective. And I'm just I was truly blown away by how this made me feel. And especially because I went into this game pretty blind. I didn't know much about it at all. I know you had said it makes people cry a lot. That's about all I really knew. Um, and yeah, I've just I I remained so impressed, even days out now from having finished this. I just can't get over how effective every single aspect of what they did is. Like, obviously, they they improve on some of it over the next couple games. You know, they obviously, like, as any artist does, they get better at their craft. But for just kind of the debut commercial work for this studio, I mean, just an instant classic that I think I will continue to be impressed by for the end of my days, right?

Speaker 2 42:47

So after to the moon ended and like the success, obviously people went to this game and were like, Whoa, this is something pretty cool and something pretty special. Uh Can Gao and Freebird games had dropped two kind of smaller little the what they call mini sodes, or the holiday mini sodes, the basically just little DLC stories for To the Moon that focus more on the Sigmund Corp and like the the real world, right? Not the memory like half an hour. Yeah, they're they're like really quick. Um and and they deal with concepts that are kind of explored in the first game a little bit, but very, very lightly. And it's a lot about like, is this an ethical business model, right? Like, like the game, the the mini, the first mini sode opens with like people protesting outside of Sigmund Corp, basically saying, like, you know, this is a bad thing. And they never get like too specific on what their exact protest is, but it's it's just like, should we be rewriting people's memories as they're dying? Is that is that an ethical thing to do? And I I've I've always thought that's a really interesting question that like you kind of think about in the first game, but you're just so caught up in like Johnny Rivers story that it's not really important. But then these mini sods. Kind of dig into that a little bit.

Speaker 1 44:03

Yeah, I think maybe maybe one thing that was important to mention we sort of glossed over is that there is there's ultimately a bitter sweetness to the ending because Johnny has all of these revelations through the rewriting of his memory where it's like, oh now I understood what River wanted the whole time and why why she was asking me all these questions toward the end, and we got reunited on the moon and it all ends happily ever after. But River died two years ago. She she never gets to know a Johnny that fully understood her. She never gets to see this. And I think part of that uh also kind of plays into the whole, is this unethical? Because it's like, unless you are able to, which it doesn't seem like the corporation can do this, simultaneously combine two people's memories and going at the same time, or two people dying at the same time, someone's gonna be left out. Someone is sort of going to get the shaft. Someone is gonna have an artificially enhanced ending to their life and be more at ease than their partner, who unfortunately has to either die later or already died. And uh so I think that's that's part of one of the things that that gets framed with the uh unethical nature. But it, like you said, it doesn't, it doesn't get super deep into it here. I think that's something they cover a little later in one of the games. But for this most part, it's like there's some protesters outside. Watts, he's like, look, I choose to focus on the fact that the people who are most happy with our service aren't alive to tell us about it. Uh so and then the second people, most of the most, the second most happy people are their families who we don't really keep up with. And so all of these people who don't involve themselves with what we actually do, don't know anything about what I don't really care about them. But Eva seems to have a slightly different take on it. Her response to that is more or less just like, I don't know, I guess, sure. Like she very clearly is not convinced by his line of thinking in that scene, is the impression I got.

Speaker 2 45:43

Yeah, that there's definitely this question of like if we're changing people's memories, that then those memories aren't real and they didn't actually happen. So, like, are we just faking people at their death? Like, are we just like giving them this like false impression? Is that an okay thing to do with with someone's life and like their journey and their story in life? Like, is that okay to just say, eh, that didn't really happen? Here's your like perfect ending that never actually happens. And it's it's an interesting question that I think doesn't really have a right answer. Like, because I you know, as as Watts kind of focuses on, they're dying. Like, is it okay to give somebody something that isn't real in their last moments to make them feel comfortable?

Speaker 1 46:30

And you know, it's like uh probably like yeah, especially like I think about this a lot. My my biggest fear in life, more than almost anything else, is just in the last 30 seconds of me leaving this mortal coil, just thinking about nothing but all the things that I wish I had done or the things I wish I hadn't done, and not being and not being able to focus on the things I'm glad I did. And so I I really resonate with that idea that he says, like, if we can give people 30 seconds of peace at the end of their life, then it's all worth it. And and it is an interesting question because you're coming right off of a game where, you know, they do the thing with River, they basically decide that we're gonna have to delete this guy's wife from his memories so that he can get his final wish. And she even mentions, because Watts, like, how did you know River would come back? She's like, I didn't. It was kind of a hunch. So it's like they really were just gambling with the idea that this would all work out, and that what what honestly was a real possibility is that all they did was make this guy forget who his wife was before he died. And then so yeah, that is definitely an interesting, you know, thing to ponder.

Speaker 2 47:29

Yeah, it it really is an interesting question that they that they don't dive in too too specifically, that they leave it open for you to kind of wonder yourself. And you know, there's stuff that happens later that makes Rosalind's reaction even more interesting when you kind of get the the depths of her situation and what what's going on with her, like it's even more interesting that she would feel this way in this moment. So I mean we'll we'll kind of come back to that when we get towards the end of the series, but there's a lot of interesting questions here, and it leads us into the next one, which shockingly, at the next uh the next holiday, right? It's it's like the holiday special, it's Christmas, essentially. Um the next year, there's more protesters once again protesting in the next mini-soad. And this this one doesn't have as much focus on it, but there is this recurrence of like these protesters keep coming back because there's real questions about the the ethicalness of this um of this practice.

Speaker 1 48:30

Yeah, and this one I think maybe is a little bit of an ode to the fact that there were a lot of these horror RPG makers uh games coming out, because there's a there's a somewhat like like horror-like tension that is built when you you when uh Watts chooses to like stay behind for the holidays. Like Rosalind's uh Rosalind, her family is basically like, you should invite your coworker over for dinner. You know, he doesn't have like a family to go home to. And he chooses to stay back to work on his like special project. And that's when you find out he's doing something a little behind the scenes, maybe a little off the record uh behind his desk at the company. But like the power goes out and he goes into the basement to restart it, and there's like a log that says he was the one that restarted it. And then Eva eventually gets convinced by her sister to come back, and we're all gonna have the party at the headquarters so that Watts can join. And then at that point, she's seeing like little flashes of herself, and you see a weird glitch at the very end of the holiday episode where like she is in one of the memory machines. So there's this whole little tension to it that's set up. And I have to imagine that if that, you know, if we had played this in real time and you played that, and then you're left thinking about that as being like one of the final parts of that mini sound, and then we get bird story and finding paradise, you're like, whoa, hold on. When are we gonna address that element?

Speaker 2 49:38

That has literally nothing to do with that scene. If we don't get that scene, that would have come out in 2015, I think, and we don't really get a solid addressing of what that is until 2023. It's like an eight-year gap of of that. It though those mini sodes are cool. It it's interesting how much like important plot relevance is kind of in them, especially with that last little like Rosalind scene. Um, that those are pretty important to to have played. Uh that they're fun, they're fine, right? They have that important story context. Um, that you know, I would say they're they're vital because of that, but that they are definitely like little like DLC things, right? They're little side projects, they're not like super deep or super long, but they do pose some interesting questions and do like leave some interesting teases for later.

Speaker 1 50:28

And it's fun to just get back into the universe. I mean, even though it was like one guy's memory in this corporation, you've now only spent like a few minutes in. There was something about with these episodes, I was like, yeah, like I'm I'm back here. I'm back in this little world that this company has constructed, and I'm and I'm really enjoying myself being here, especially in the different contexts of things.

Speaker 2 50:46

And you get to meet more of the Sigmund staff too, which is I mean, like Roxy and Rob are both great. Like they are two of they end up they end up becoming two relatively important characters throughout the series, and they're just so like they're so fun, and like Roxy is just like always on like it's like she's on cocaine like all the time. She's just like she's very energetic.

Speaker 1 51:08

Like, woo! There's the old couple that's been working there forever, and they're always trying to like hook up in rooms they think are empty and never are. And um, but there's there's even an interesting question about them where one of the characters says, like, man, do you think they're gonna want Sigmund's services when they're on their deathbed? And uh, which of us are gonna be the ones to do it? And I was like, Oh, yeah, that's that's heavy. Yeah, but yeah, dude, eight, eight years. I can't imagine because the the eight hours of gameplay that was in between the last mini sode and when I finally figured out what it is was too agonizing for me. I cannot imagine eight years.

Speaker 2 51:40

There was literally a point where you just sent me a Discord screenshot of just that, and you were like, Win this though? Just wait.

Speaker 1 51:49

Well, moving on to the next game in the series, we have a game called Finding Paradise, and it's sort of um, I mean, it's not it's not technically a prequel, it's a prologue game called Bird Story. And uh, in this installment, we once again follow the doctors, Rosalind and Watts, as they help a new patient, Colin Reeves, fulfill his dying wish to change something in his life, but change nothing at all. Like he's very specific about like, I want something to change to make my life feel more satisfying at the end, but I don't want you to erase anything that I've like accomplished after this point because he has a very loving wife and he has kids, a a kid. Um, and and they're very confused by this, right? So, kind of to figure out what this means and grant that wish, they dive through his memories and you know they explore all the key moments and the emotions and the life choices. And this is one that has a lot of the same humor and reflection on life and happiness and whatnot, but this one kind of gets more into the idea of like, does rewriting your your memories to erase regret at the end, does that create happiness for you? Or does it really just erase the identity that was formed? Does it really erase the meaning of your life that was the result of some of these regrets, the result of the bad things, right? It's the whole idea of like, can there be light without the darkness? Um but really I think it's a good thing.

Speaker 2 53:02

Right, but does I just say does your life have meaning without friction? Is essentially like the the question that this game ponders in a lot of ways is like, what is the purpose of life if everything just comes to you super easy and you have no tension and there's no there's nothing that you have to fight for and struggle for? Like if everything's just everything's perfect, like what where is the meaning in your life? So that's what this game really kind of focuses it on, I think.

A Boy and His Bird

Speaker 1 53:29

Yeah, and and we really have to start here with that prologue game, and it's called Bird Story, or was it a bird story? It's a bird story, yeah. A bird story, yeah. So this is originally advertised as like for those looking for another to the moon-like experience, but or like experimental experience. I mean, I think they they emphasize the idea that this is like not quite the same thing. And sure enough, it's not, because this is not only is there no voice acting, there's no dialogue. This is like an hour and a half, maybe. It's a little shorter. Yeah. But there's, I mean, there's not one piece of dialogue. It's all of the storytelling is done through just art and animation, and you sort of um, you know, navigating the character through these uh scenes that all kind of transition together. It's very like imagination-based, you know.

Speaker 2 54:15

It's it's not all in his like a surrealist, uh very like surrealist nature to the imagery. Like you walk through a hallway and it turns into like the lockers turn into trees, and like exactly as you're kind of navigating the world. So it's like this very imaginative, like surrealist world that's a really interesting concept that the game explores.

Speaker 1 54:35

And he's a small child, so it's all about his like overactive imagination, and that really plays well into all these scene transitions and stuff. And essentially what it is is like there's a scene early on where he's walking in the forest and he sees an injured bird being chased by like a big badger, and he kind of scares the badger away, and he takes the bird and like sets it aside, and he's like, you know, there there you go, like fly away now. And he kind of walks off, but then he turns around and the badger's back, and he realizes that the bird he can't fly away. So he ends up taking it in, and it's this really sweet, you know, short story about a kid developing a huge connection with this bird. And uh when he's in school, you can see him always like daydreaming and looking out the window, thinking about it, and he kind of keeps it like hidden from his parents on his back porch, and you can you kind of get the feeling when he's on the playground that he doesn't have a lot of friends, and um so this is really like his first friend, or at least like his best friend at the time, is this bird. And he at one point, you know, he kind of realizes that, like, you know, the responsible thing to be would be to take this to the vet and let them keep the bird and let them take care of it. I'm not I'm a kid, I cannot nurse this thing back to health. But he he can't let go of it, and he ends up like go bringing it to the vet, and the vet kind of tells like fixes up the wing for it, puts it a little cast, and then he goes back in the closet to get a cage, and then he just grabs the bird and like, or the kid grabs the bird and like sprints out because he just he doesn't want to give up the bird. And um, you know, ultimately it plays into all these themes about like letting go and moving on, because eventually, through a big surrealist segment where he he loves to throw uh throw these paper airplanes, right? He plays like fetch with the bird at one point, these little paper airplanes. Yeah, he gets on a giant one and flies through the sky and he crash lands on this island and all this stuff's happening. But then, like a sort of shadowy image of the bird that's supposed to represent, like, I guess something kind of in his memory, uh, gets carried away by another bird and the bird's gone. And when he goes back home, the bird's gone because the bird has gotten better and learned to fly. And of course, like, you know, it comes back to visit him for a bit and a little bit of a touching scene at the end. But this whole thing is really emphasizing like loss and how like we have to move on eventually, and that sometimes our our ability to not do so can be both detrimental to us and those around us. And uh, it's just it's really impressive and really touching for having not one word in the game other than a bird story at the title screen.

Speaker 2 56:48

Ultimately, what makes this so interesting? This this released in 2014, so this came out in between the two mini sodes, essentially. Uh, it was the the I guess the third, it was like the third piece of of to the moon content, if you will. And for them to have already like taken what is just pixel art and music, and being able to tell this whole narrative around no dialogue at all is so impressive to me in and what I think a lot of people would feel is a relatively limited form of storytelling, right? Like like 16-bit games weren't known for their impressive storytelling, especially ones without dialogue. Like, like your most impressive narratives in in those in those you know, mediums were like Final Fantasy VI and Chrono Trigger and stuff like that, they're very dialogue-heavy games. And so for them to take this same art style in this, like what I think a lot of people consider limited, and tell such a compelling narrative in an hour and a half chunk without any dialogue, it's just so impressive to me. It's it's a really cool story, and it it is simple, it is effective, but or it is simple, but it is effective, I guess is how I should frame that. Like it is a pretty simple narrative. It doesn't like make any grand uh points outside of you need to learn when to let go of something, right? I mean, there's literally the the image of him like releasing the bird that is symbolic of him letting the bird go. Like it's yeah, it's pretty in your face, but it's effective in it in its simplicity.

Speaker 1 58:28

Yeah, I mean it really is like a masterpiece in um, you know, I keep wanting to say non-verbal, but like non-written, non-dialogue storytelling, just like pure animation. Um, and it and it's I wouldn't say it's like oh it's not like absolutely required for finding paradise, but I do think it it certainly enhances finding paradise. So I'm really glad that we chose to play it beforehand because it do it does directly feed into certain elements of like the character. Because the character is Colin, right? Like you he is the person in the world. Right, yes, right.

Speaker 2 58:58

It there was a moment where I was like, do we need to play Bird Story? And then I was like, you know, we probably should, because it does give that additional context that is so I think important to understanding. Because in Finding Paradise, the way the way they approach the story in that one is a little bit different because with Johnny, we just go back, right? We're just in a linear line from old age to youth, and we have that block, but it's all sequential. With Colin, though, I think something they did that was really smart is this could have felt very similar where it's like, okay, we're just we're progressing back through somebody's memories again, old to young, whatever. But here they they actually like kind of ping pong it. You start when he's old, but very quickly you're like slingshotted back to right after bird story, essentially. Like, kind of like right in conjunction with the end of bird story. This is really interesting because you you're coming right off of bird story, you get to see all this additional context and you know exactly where Colin is at in his head. He's just lost what is essentially his only friend that he has, at least as as far as we can tell, right? Like he's lost his only real friend, and his parents aren't ever really home because in Bird Story they're constantly like leaving him little notes, but yeah, never they're never they're never shown. Like, not once in Bird Story are they shown at all, because they're like never home. So Colin's very alone, and you can tell that at times this is fun, like he'll go jump on his parents' bed or he'll like stay up like watching TV or whatever, and it's like, oh haha, you know, I'm having a good time, but it's very clearly making him feel very lonely. So to have that additional context of like now his only friend, this bird, has flown off, he's now alone again. And like this is really important context, I think, to have going into Finding Paradise.

Speaker 1 1:00:51

In the old Colin, we are immediately introduced to his family. He has a grown kid, of course, and he has a wife who is still alive. And you know, he's on his deathbed, he's unconscious, he's in the memory machine thing. But we're getting to meet Sophia, his wife, a little bit. And you you're getting a little bit of the impression that she's not uh necessarily 100% on board with him doing this Sigmund Court memory thing. And when we ping pong back to Little Column, he's talking to a girl across the balcony named Faye, who conveniently is not named Sophia. And so I think Watts even makes a joke about, like, oh man, do you think it's like a long-lost love or whatever? And as the game begins to ping pong back and forth and approach this center, there's a lot of things going on where you're like, oh God, is it? Is this guy choosing to use this thing to go back to like a love he wish he could have had in his final moments instead of focusing on like any regrets he may have had with his current wife? And it does end up coming to a point where you realize, no, that's not the case. But the game spends a decent amount of time kind of nudging you in that direction. And I think it was really making you feel a certain way about like, oh god, are we just helping this guy basically like, uh, I don't, I don't know what the word would be, but like retroactively cheat on his wife. Like it it it made me mildly uncomfortable at a point, but you know, it does come to a really interesting idea because, and I'll let you get into this, right? Faye ends up not being a real character a real person.

Speaker 2 1:02:13

You know, probably 45 minutes to an hour before this is actually revealed to you, you start to wonder about Faye. Like, she's always around Colin. She never seems to be anywhere else. Yeah, no one ever seems to interact with her.

Speaker 1 1:02:28

She had no job, no other hobbies, she's just always there.

Speaker 2 1:02:32

It it it's it's very much you start to wonder like, is this person actually real or is this all in his head? And that there does come to this moment where it's like right at the end of act two, you're you get a a call from Roxy, who makes a comeback in this game. Let's go, Roxy. Um, you get a call from Roxy, and she's like trying to dig into Faye's like public record, and Roxy's like, there is no record of this person ever existing in the history of ever. And that's when it clicks. Like, okay, I was right. I think we both had this moment of like, yes, this person does not exist. This is in Colin's head.

Speaker 1 1:03:12

Because Rosaline at one point, because there's all this, uh, he's like trying to be a pilot. So there's all this imagery about planes and stuff, and and him and Faye talk about like flying somewhere together. So Rosaline's like, Roxy, I need you to look up if there's any like flight records with someone named Faye, whatever, on them, right? That that passed away. And that's when Roxanne calls back and she's like, There's no records of someone named Faye or anything, just just period. Right. And that's when you're like, oh my god.

Speaker 2 1:03:36

Right. Like, no aviate, no aviation accidents, no anything. She just doesn't exist. And you're like, okay. So it's a really nice click moment. I think it's a little more projected than the Joey or the River stuff. Like, I didn't see either of those two things coming at all. And I think you can kind of tell pretty early, but like, not, I guess like midway through the game. You can kind of tell, okay, Faye's not something's off with her. Um, but it's still an effective reveal, I think. And we actually like, there's a lot of great scenes where you're you're doing that questioning thing. Like, I know you talked about one where um Sophia is giving birth, and you you don't know for sure if that's Sophia that's in the in the hospital. You're like, you're like, is is Asher, the um Colin's child, is that actually FaZe Kid? You're like, oh my god. Like, so it's like that there are some moments where you question, like, who what is going on with Colin's like like life here? Uh and I think this reveal is effective, and we get another one of those like really great hand-drawn scenes where they're sitting under a uh Colin, he's talking to himself, but is saying, like, you know, it's it's okay for you to go now, like, I'll make it. I can do like I'll I'll be able to go through life. Like, there's this moment of clarity where he's like, You aren't real, and I need to like go on with life. And that's after he meets Sophia and they like start talking. Yeah, he's like, I can I can move on now, and and I don't want to leave you necessarily this this person who's been, you know, this person, uh, in quotes, that's been so important to me, but I need to move on and like move on with my life and interact with real people.

Speaker 1 1:05:27

Yeah, and there's just like the last game, a lot of stuff gets recontextualized with this reveal. So, you know, the the music is another important part, and he's a cellist. So he plays the cello, and uh, Faye plays like acoustic guitar, and there's this scene where they're up on this mountaintop, and he's basically like, All I know are like the scales, and it's just so boring, and I don't know how to make anything interesting. And she's like, No, you just need like some background music that fits it. So she starts playing these chords, and she's like, Now play the scales over it, and it's just this really cool song. And she's like, See, like that, but then you realize that like she's not even real. So all of that was him, and it's like he She almost had to use Faye as a way to have confidence in his ability to play the music and actually make something out of it. And, you know, it's obviously like all symbolic about the bird. There's this part where you you fight her in this weird, um, you're saying it's like a reference to like the Kefka battle in Final Fantasy VI.

Speaker 2 1:06:15

It's literally just the Kefka battle. She like descends from the sky the same way Kefka does with like wings, and I'm like, this is just Kefko.

Speaker 1 1:06:22

But you know, she's got the wings because she's very much symbolic of the bird, right? This was basically, he couldn't deal with his only friend being lost, and he clearly has never been great at making friends. He's a little bit of an awkward kid. So he just creates one out of thin air, and it's this girl Faye. And um, it it's it's really touching in a lot of ways. It definitely gets all like even more fever dreamy than the zombie high school out of part because you're doing these weird like boss battles where one, you know, one's like a uh side-scrolling shooter version where you're on the little airplanes, one is like a street fighter kind of thing. And the first time through, she's like invulnerable because she is a the memory of Faye is basically trying to stop the doctors from overriding the memory, right? It basically goes into defense mode. It's like, no, just because I'm not real doesn't mean you can just delete me. Like if this is what you think this is what you think Colin wants, like you're wrong. But then eventually, like on the outside, Rosaline like injects um Colin with like a sedative or something, so it like slows his mind down, and that makes Faye's powers in the in these games like diminish. So then you can start to do damage to her. And it's fun, like it's definitely a little goofy. Um, and maybe the whole pacing of the last act is a little less effective than To the Moon, but I still think it ends up in a really sweet spot because one of the things you learn is that there's this there's this book that he's been tearing blank pages out to make paper airplanes with in a lot of the scenes, and also Watts finds it in Colin's house, like in the real world, and it's blank. But then you you see this scene that you'd already seen with uh Sophia and Colin on their honeymoon. But when you see it for the second time, you realize that like he had spilt some lemon juice. And Sophia was like, Oh, well, don't waste it. There's actually something really cool you can do with that. Like you can use it as an invisible ink and write like messages, and then when you heat it up, it you know, it's like some spy stuff. And that's when you realize, oh God, that book has been like the pages that he doesn't tear out, it's he's been writing stuff in it. And it's almost like Sophia forgot the same thing. But when when you kind of close the gap there and you come out of the machine, Watts grabs the book and gives it to Sophia, and it's this really touching moment because you're like, he never forgot about her. Like none of this was about erasing Sophia, none of this was about erasing Astra, none of this was about erasing his actual experiences. He had to come to terms almost with his former self. Like he had to come to terms with the fact that all of these regrets he had throughout of his life are his identity. These are what made him, these are what made his life. And that rounds out in a cool way. It's really touching. It definitely does not quite hit the same way to the moon does, but I think it's it's like in the ballpark. And they had, like you said, there's when they're sitting under the tree, it's kind of the analog to like the the log scene. The logs. And there's the mirroring of, you know, the same way River not never got to know for sure that Johnny ever understood her. Sophia doesn't ever quite understand the revelations that Colin went through, but there's at least a little bit with the book that she can kind of understand that he definitely still loved her and that all of her reservations about him doing this can kind of be put at ease. Um, but but ultimately, like, you know, he has a scene. Uh Watts has a conversation with Asher where Asher's like, Can you tell me what happened? And Watts is like, uh, no, sorry, I I actually can't. It's against policy, it's against like his wishes. Um, so yeah, it's still really touching. I think it's really cool. You can tell they do a little bit more, uh, have a little higher budget for some of the animations and artwork. There's a few more songs involved. Everything is still in the same kind of style and aesthetic, but it's all just kind of ratcheted up a notch. Um, yeah, I the symbolism with the bird and tying back to bird story is really effective in lots of places. So this is still a great one. Um, I do think maybe across the three, it might have ended up kind of being the one I would rank at the bottom, but not, but not by a lot, right? I mean, I think uh a joke I make to you, because all roads must lead to Mass Effect on the Games Gone by podcast, is that this is like Mass Effect, where I can ultimately like nitpick about which one's my favorite and which one's my least favorite, but they're all uniquely good at something in their own right, and they're all best played together anyway. So there's no reason to spend too much time thinking about it. Like you'll want to play this one in the whole series anyway, and it's still a damn good game.

Speaker 2 1:10:16

Yeah, I I think the biggest problem with Finding Paradise, if if you even want to call it a problem, is that it's almost too similar to to the moon. Like it, it you you even made the comment that it's like kind of those 1.5 sequels that we complain about a lot of times, of like it's it's so similar in a lot of ways, and and they do a couple they do a couple distinct things, I think, that help separate it. Like, I think Colin and Sophia's relationship is one that is more immediately relatable. Like it's it's hard, I imagine, for a lot of people, myself included in a lot of ways, to fully understand like the Johnny River dynamic. Yeah. Because I don't, I don't have, like, you know, my girlfriend doesn't have the social disorders that River struggles with. So while we have our own problems, we don't have those problems, right? So it's like, I think Colin and Sophia's relationship is a little bit more traditional of a relationship, and and almost immediately, like one of the first scenes you see of them together, once, you know, when Colin's not dying in bed, is like they're talking about uh setting up Asher with like a neighborhood um girl, whatever. And uh the Colin's like, I'm gonna send her this, uh I'm gonna send him her name and contact number. Yeah. And Sophia's like, Sophia's like, no, no, well, wait till he's not driving and make sure you send the good pictures. Like, that's a very instantly like charming, relatable, like grandparent parent type thing to do. And so it's it's immediately relatable for them. And I think this carries through through a lot of it, right? Like, you don't have marital strife in the same way that you do in to the moon. It's a very different kind of strife, it's it's a very internal strife for Colin. Because his life, something that I think is really neat about Finding Paradise is the notes that you were talking about in To the Moon. As you're playing through Finding Paradise, you get notes that say like regrets at it.

Speaker 1:12:10

Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 1:12:10

It's basically just like these are the things that maybe Colin would want to change. Maybe these are the things that would be better. Like he wants grandkids. Oh, he wished his first, you know, he wished he hadn't spilt the lemon juice at the wedding.

Speaker 3 1:12:22

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:12:22

Oh, we wished his first plane landing was a little smoother or whatever, right? And then again, as we talked about with these games, all that is recontextualized at the end, whenever you realize like the lemon juice moment led to this other sweet moment, that it's not a regret, it's it's something that led to something different, something beautiful in a different way, right? And so, like those experiences, those regrets all matter. And you get this really sweet scene that ends off the game basically with another vocal track that's like heartbreakingly, you know, that that goes through all of these regrets and kind of recontextualizes them. And like Faye is involved in all of them, like as the kind of arbiter of his subconscious at this point. Like, um, as they're getting out of the machine, as the doctors are leaving the machine, they kind of let Faye take over and say, like, you know what's best for Johnny, you've been there for him, or sorry, uh, Colin, not Johnny. Um, you know what's best for Colin. I know, I know. Uh they're like, you know what's best for Colin because you've been with him his whole life. You were there, and you know what he needs. So we're gonna let you do it. We're gonna let this kind of manifestation of his subconscious like you get to run the machine. And this is like a crazy concept because like that's not what they're supposed to do, and it's it's like probably a violation of contract, but like Watts, Watts is like, I believe you know best. So you get this really great scene of them like standing on the balcony again, and it's like done in this like interesting framing that like I can't even really describe, but like Faye's kind of in the background and Colin's in the foreground, and they're like talking to each other across the balcony again, and it's almost like a first-person perspective kind of. It's a really really interesting and like really touching scene where Colin basically just says, like, you know, I just wish I could have done this all with you. Like, like, my my only regret, I guess, would be like that you weren't there, and she's like, I was, I was always there, I was always with you. Colin, it was within Colin all along, and and he just needed to accept it, kind of like you said earlier. So a really good message, really good story. I I would agree with you that I think it it kind of falls off a little bit at the end, but only very slightly. Yeah, it's still a really good game.

Speaker 1 1:14:39

Yeah, I think you're you're you're really onto something there about how much more relatable that this one is immediately, because like you said, not not everyone has the same necessarily like relationship dynamic as the couple in the first game, but everyone has regrets. And everyone has decisions that they make that their partner doesn't quite understand. And so I think that that does make it a little more accessible, but yeah, ultimately it's still a super touching story, and I think it does this is when it really starts to, I think, lay the foundation for the next game because it's like it acknowledges that maybe there is something to what Sigmund Corp is doing that is not necessarily always going to be the healthiest thing for the person. Like maybe because ultimately where you end up with this is allowing Colin to just maintain his memories as they were. Now he understands them differently, but you didn't really rewrite anything. You really just were giving Colin the ability to actually understand what he, you know, why he had to have that imaginary friend, right? Why he had to do all of this. And it and it and it but it leaves it in the spot of like, we're still gonna maintain these memories. We're not really rewriting anything. And so I think that really lays the foundation for some of the philosophical questions in the next game. But before we move on to that, there's definitely some stuff about this I do want to talk about. Uh, namely, this one gets into a lot of references that are just so good. So fun. Um, you know, I'll let you uh have your couple of them here, but my favorite one is like when when Faye is sort of becoming like a big bad in the simulation and Watts has to fight her, he does what is literally a like Sailor Moon transformation as his you know body parts glow rainbow as they form armor around them, and he's like floating in the sky with like a naked silhouette and all these things form around him. And I thought that was so funny. Uh, and there's some other great ones in there too.

Speaker 2 1:16:20

Yeah, this game has so many fun references. Like the first game has some like meta referential humor, but this game like really ratchets it up a lot. And and it plays into Colin as a character, right? Because he has this very active imagination that we see in Bird Story. So, like one of one of the best like running gags kind of is uh when he's trying to become a pilot and he goes to learn from the pilot school, they they kind of make a reference to like the the owner of it being kind of a mafia boss of sorts, like like a mobster. Yeah. So whenever you go to meet him, it's like full-on like godfather, like he's like wearing the hat, and the music turns into like straight godfather music. And it's like on the day of my daughter's birthday, you come to me with exact quotes. Yeah, it's like literally exact quotes from from Godfather, and like it's so funny. The Kefka reference that we mentioned earlier is like a direct, like a direct kefka reference. That there's one point where Watts like turns into a Super Saiyan and and Kamehameha's, but also Hadoukins at the same time, the the like memory orbit. Kamehameduken or something is what he does. Yeah, yeah. And and Rosalind literally says, like, ah, so we've really moved on to getting sued by two IPs simultaneously. And I'm just like, that's amazing. It's it's so tongue in cheek, so referential. I love it.

Speaker 1 1:17:43

Yeah, you know, at one point when you you, you know, it's an RPG maker game, it's old school RPG, so you're seeing the characters follow one behind each other. And at one point they even point that out that, like, does it really matter where you go? I'm just gonna follow you on a straight line behind you the entire time. And, you know, one of them mentions like a direct call back to To the Moon, where they're like, maybe he's got a secret twin we don't know about. And there's just some good stuff in there. And it's and it's done as well as the first game in regards to it, it plays up the levity when it's appropriate and it cuts down on it when it isn't. You know, they don't interrupt the super touching reveal scenes at the end. They really, the two doctors really step back as observers and let all that play out and let the characters have their moments. And it isn't one of these things where that's like, uh, they don't want you to leave alone yourself with your own thoughts for five seconds till you start crying. Like they want you to cry. So they let all of that resonate as long as it needs to, you know, with the vocal tracks, like you said, and the epilogues and all this. So as far as the art and presentation and the music, I think it's all pretty much just as good. There's maybe not the one track that stands out as much as, you know, Four River did. And I think it's because they're not trying to rope a particular piece of movie into a storytelling element or music, sorry, into a storytelling element the same way. I mean, the actual Four River song is really important in the first game, and it's dun dun d and it's very recognizable. They don't quite go that route with this one, but it's still a lot of the same like minimalist piano music. And uh yeah, I mean, I still think all the things I loved about the art and music in the first one are are just as good here. And so that really helps all of the atmosphere, all of the mood setting. It's still extremely well done in that regard.

Imposter Factory - A Brief Overview

Speaker 2 1:19:12

Yeah, Finding Paradise really does kind of come together in a really nice package, just like to the moon. And while I think it might be a little bit, a little bit less uh effective just because it's so similar, I really think the next game in the series does something a lot different. And not necessarily say it's better, but it does try and do something really interesting. So the the next game is Imposter Factory, and you kind of rope in the Just It to the Moon Beach episode uh into that in your notes here, and those two do kind of work really well together. And Imposter Factory was was released in 2021 and kind of a just a high-level overview of that game. Uh, you control a brand new character named Quincy, who is invited to a remote mansion for kind of this gathering, it's like a mysterious gathering with some high-class benefactors who are, you know, kind of the fancy people.

Speaker 1 1:20:09

It feels very um like knives out or and then there were none. Like it kind of has that tone to it in the first act.

Speaker 2 1:20:16

There's a lot of mystery build in that in those early parts of the game, and very quickly things start to get chaotic because guests seem to just die, and then after Quincy goes to like wash his hands of of the blood, they're back, and it's like very what is going on here? Like, what is the reality that is happening? And as this happens, you start to notice that a woman named Linry is very intertwined with these events in some way, and it's you don't know exactly how. And you after you confront Linry, you're kind of set on this journey through her past that I think is where the game really picks up and really gets to the good stuff with this game.

The Greatest Act 2 of All Time

Speaker 1 1:20:59

Yeah, the first act, you know, we've kind of talked about this off-screen. It's interesting in the way it sets up a mystery, but it kind of just becomes like I don't want to say irrelevant, but the recontextualization of the first act by the end makes it feel a little less relevant than other parts of the game. And it doesn't really have any of the emotional high points that the second act has, and it just kind of feels like a murder mystery that ends up not only not getting entirely resolved, but it's not even important whether or not it does. So that's a little strange. But man, when he confronts Lenry and she's basically like, All right, I need you to come into this door here. I'm I'll, you know, I'll meet you down there later. And he goes in and she locks the door behind him, and he starts walking on this hallway that begins to show us and him Lenry's life playing out from a very young age. And it's all of these just like still animated scenes that he passes. And brother, I I'm I'm already crying at this point, and we haven't got and we haven't seen nothing yet.

Speaker 2 1:21:59

I mean, almost immediately act two of this game, like we talked about how the the series is able to drag you in and like really immerse you in its world, but act two, especially of Imposter Factory, you are just so you are just so brought in to this story and these characters in this world. Like you are just immediately immersed and watching this journey play out. I mean, Linry as a child, like the first scene you really see is her like out in this field of lavender, and she's playing with her classmates, and she like collapses. And yeah, I love this transition of like you walk through this dark hallway, and the first thing you see is like the outline of an ambulance. Yeah. Such an awesome transition because it's like that's the first thing she sees when she wakes up is this ambulance, but like she can't fully visualize it because she's inside of it and just coming out of this, like, you know, she passed out and is in this like unconscious state. Yeah. So she's just waking up and like just seeing the outline of the ambulance is such a cool transition. And then you're you're brought into like the doctor's office and talk about how she has, you know, another vague mysterious illness as is in this game. But you you just get to watch this person grow up and deal with these things, and eventually our version of Quincy realizes that he played a huge part in Linry's life, and that's when things I think really ramp up.

Speaker 1 1:23:28

Yeah, and you know, you start to get some uh past just the stills, and you start to get into actual like animated scenes where Quincy meets Lindry in they meet in the library at school for the first time, I think. Yes, yeah, they go to the same college, and you know, there's a funny conversation where she's basically like, So what are you studying? And he's like, Um, it's like he's um liberal arts, and she's like, Oh, well, you know, I think they're important. He's like, Who said they weren't? I didn't say they weren't important. It just reminded me of me when I was studying history, and like every conversation I'd have with any pretty girl in the library who was like a fucking biochem major or something.

Speaker 2 1:23:59

Right, which which Linry, of course, is a neuroscience major.

Speaker 1 1:24:03

Super smart. Um and it's it's actually interesting because at one point during some of these animated flashbacks, I can't remember exactly how it works, but there's a part where basically you recognize that you can't understand what is being said by her parents because Linry didn't hear that. And it's not until Lenry gets close to the door and it's like puts her ear against it and is listening to their conversation that then you can see what they're saying. And so all of this is really her memories playing back for Quincy, including the ones he's in, right? And it's it's just such this romantic tale in act two, because he talks about how he wants to travel the world. And when they, you know, she eventually kind of reveals that she has this illness and that like really influences what she wants to do and what she can't do. And he and she's like, you know, I feel so pressured to make the most of my time because I never know when it will end. And so that's why I want to like study really hard and get through school and and join and like make something uh that'll help people, like invent something cool, make something cool. And Colin has a very different approach. He's like, Oh, you know, well, my grandmother or aunt or whatever Quincy, Quincy, Jesus. Too many characters. He has something where he says, Well, you know, I I have like a similar thought about life, but because of that, I always want to live in the moment and I want to go experience what I can. So that's why like I want to travel the world and do this and that. But she she can't because of her illness and because of like even just like the I guess like she could, but she feels like she can, right? So there's this super sweet scene where after they kind of start seeing each other where he says, like, uh, come, you know, come meet me at the top of this uh it's like a bridge. Yeah. And um she comes out and it's funny because she's in this like it's like winter, and she's in this really like uh pretty dress. And he's like, Wow, that's really pretty, but you might want a coat or something because it's it's really cold outside. And she's like, I thought you said to dress, like she's like, Oh my god, you meant warmly or like hotly, you know, because it's cold outside. He's like, Yeah, what did you think I meant? Because of course she interpreted that as like, I want you to look good for this event or whatever. But you know, he puts the jacket around her, they walk up to this thing, and he has set up all of these wonders of the world and all these like uh vacation destinations and monuments in a kind of goofy way. So they talked about how he had been to France and he saw the Eiffel Tower and how cool it was, and she's like, Oh, you know, I'll never get to see that. And so he builds it out of like mops and a broom handle or something, and then he builds like Stonehenge out of a bunch of lunch trays, and then he's got um the Sydney Opera House of a bunch of little tents and like what is it, the the leaning tower of Pisa with like uh fast food tents. It's like coffee cups, yeah, coffee cups, coffee cups. All these little things. Yeah, the great wall out of fast food, like takeout containers. And it's just as goofy as it kind of is, there's something so sincere about it, and you can tell how much she appreciates it. And of course, the music is underneath doing all the work that the music does in these games. And oh my god, it was so heartwarming. Like this was definitely not a cry because it's sad, but a cry because it's so happy kind of thing. And it was just like, oh my god, I could not stop myself.

Speaker 2 1:27:01

I I think you literally said in your recording, you're like, I think that's the sweetest thing I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 1:27:07

Made me feel like I why couldn't I have thought of something like that in my life?

Speaker 2 1:27:10

Like, right, like, man, that this girl is like immediately like, yes, Quincy. Like, I mean, and and and it's just such a sweet scene because even after that, you get that they're sitting on a bench together after this this like really nice moment happens, and you see that they're talking, and Quincy says something along the lines of if you need to be a star, like I can be your earth. If if you can't travel the world, I'll bring the world to you. If you need a reason to keep going, I'll be that reason, and it's like, oh my god. Like, it's just so sickeningly sweet, dude. And it's just it feels so pure though, because it's so well written and so just like immediately grabs you.

Speaker 1 1:28:00

And throughout this, she had kind of kept him at like arm's reach, I think, or arm's length, because she's kind of trying not to be too vulnerable. Shiva says something along the lines of uh, you know, oh, I bet you're really proud of that line, aren't you? But by the end of this, you know, she's leaning, she's scooted closer to him on the bench. She's like leaning on his shoulder. Maybe she's crying into his shoulder, maybe I'm crying into my shoulder, I'm not sure which one. But it's like really heartwarming. And the way it kind of plays out from here is, you know, she's she wants to get, you know, a superstar job doing whatever. And she ends up, you know, one of the stills that you see is her having an interview with the two professors, the benefactors from Act One, right? So you realize, like, okay, she's she ends up working for them in some capacity. And so she gets this job working on the memory machine, right? You start to realize, like, okay, this is a precursor to Sigmund Corp in some capacity or another. She is studying like neuroscience and memories and memory formation and all these things. But as they're, you know, they they end up moving across the country for this job, right? And they have this distance that's growing between them because she's spending more and more in time at work. And it's and it's kind of causing some tension. And Quincy's sort of doubting, like, you know, I know I said I'd always be here for you and your reason to go on, but like, I, you know, I don't know what I expected because this just kind of wasn't it.

Speaker 2 1:29:11

Another like super relatable thing. Oh, yeah. Talking about like the last game being relatable. I felt so much of my own relationship a lot in these moments because like my girlfriend's very ambitious, she's working, you know, multiple jobs, doing like her dreams, but we're just bumming around talking about video games on the notch. I know, I know. So it's like, but it's like I felt a lot of this same like I'm I'm here and I'm I'm being supportive, but it it is a struggle sometimes with this distance. So, like, yeah, very, very relatable. Like, I could definitely see a lot of people seeing themselves in this relationship as well.

Speaker 1 1:29:42

Yeah, there's times where um my wife is doing like an amateur theater thing in town and directing something at her school, and that's I'll see her like four hours during the week. And yeah, so exactly. Yeah, and you know, like we're both we're both decent at being alone. So we're not talking about there's actually we're not really having Quincy level riffs here. Oh, anyone to feel sorry about it. No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 1:30:01

But it is relatable. But but it is relatable, like it does. You can see yourself in in a lot of this, especially if you have that sort of dynamic in your life.

Speaker 1 1:30:10

Yeah, absolutely. So eventually, she because they're having a little bit of an argument, she ends up late for work on the day they're supposed to truly test this thing for like the investors. And it's a good thing she is, because the the other engineer she works with ends up taking her place in the test and it kills him. It like, you know, the machine mouse functions, and and that causes her, through, you know, another beautifully animated dialogue list series of animations and scenes to quit her job and come home. And she's basically like, fuck it, let's travel the world. And so you see this super cool scene where they actually get to go to all of the little landmarks that he had made in that one scene, and you're and you're walking through it and uh because at this point you're still like fake Quincy, you know, watching all of these memories. So as you're walking through, the scene changes and you see them at all these little things, and the tears are coming again because it's so heartwarming. It's like they finally got to do everything they wanted to do. And during this time, she gets pregnant. When they go to see the doctor and they find out that she's pregnant, the doctor basically has some devastating news for them, which is like, here's the thing is your disease is starting to progress. Right. And in order for us to give you the best chance to survive, we have to start treatment immediately. But starting the treatment immediately is gonna impact the baby. So it's like they kind of have to choose between her quality of life or the child's quality of life. And they end up, at least in this version of events, deciding that they're gonna err on the side of, I guess, her quality of life, right? Yeah. So the kid ends up being born with some sort of issue, and he and all throughout these little scenes, because and the game continues to show so much of it through these dialogue-less scenes that are, but they're full on animated. I mean, sometimes they're stills, they're like animations mixed in, but they're so good, dude. Because it's just, I mean, it's four or five seconds, but you're just like, oh my god, like you know, uh, she's reading a book to him in bed, but he's up to this oxygen machine, or they're like at the playground, but he can't play with the other kids because he's in a wheelchair and it's oh god, dude, even just just talking about it. And so it's super sad. And you go through this, and of course, like eventually what you would expect to happen is the kid has an untimely death, and this causes them to split, right? She ends up going back to work for the company. Um, I don't know if it's implied because she wants to be able to like change those memories for herself or something, or she just wants to be able to help other people, but she definitely decides to go back to work for them. I imagine it's both. Yeah. I imagine it's a little bit above. And is this about where you come out of um act two?

Speaker 2 1:32:39

Yeah, this is pretty much where act two ends, is like the idea that we're supposed to believe is that this is caught up to her life presently, and that like she is in the machine, which is why number, you know, act one was so weird and crazy, is because she was in the machine working on this, right? Like that she's experimenting with the machine, and now that Quincy's done the life, he's coming out of that like tunnel of memories, yeah, back into the reality that she's in inside the machine.

Speaker 1 1:33:12

And you know, Quincy's about as confused as you are at this part. And he's like, hold on, that's like, why don't I remember any of this? Yeah, this is pretty much where he's like, I'm not real. I'm I'm a simulation of Quincy. I'm I'm part of like Linry's experiment here. I had walked away after that, and I was just like, oh my god. That was that was one of the most like intense uh sequences in a game I think I've ever experienced emotionally. I mean, this is right up there with the the the Last of Us characters dying and and Morden sacrificing himself for that. I mean, this is up there with anything I've I've ever seen in a game. And um this to me, I think we both agree, is like this is the peak of this entire series as far as its emotional impact through its storytelling. I mean, nothing hits the highs of Act Two in this game.

Speaker 2 1:33:58

100%. I think the the act two, like just act two isolated in and of itself, is flawless. Yeah. I mean, it is it is incredible storytelling, both from like a visual and a written dialogue, just just all around. I mean, stuff that happens at the very beginning of Act Two, where like Linry's like laying out in the lavender field with her father looking up at the stars, and they're talking about like another one of those beautifully hand-drawn scenes, like the log scene and the um the tree scene, right? It's this like really nice scene where they're laying and looking up at the stars, and her dad's asking her, like, do you want to be a star, or would you rather be the lavender? And she's like, I want to be a star so I can shine a light on the lavender so everybody else can see how how beautiful the lavender is, right? Like, yeah, what sort of like impression she'll leave on the world and stuff, like really beautiful like parallels to that. And then you see it at the end, whenever their son Toby is is dying. She wants to go back out in the field with him, but he dies before they can go. And like her dad's telling her, like, you know, you were a star to to Toby, and you're a star to me, and you're a star to Quincy. Like, you are making an impact. It's just really, really beautifully written stuff, and like just really hits and pulls at all the hard strings in all the right ways. It's so impactful, and it it yeah, it really is like the peak of this whole franchise, in my opinion.

The Sci Fi Philosphy of Imposter Factory

Speaker 1 1:35:26

Yeah, and I just I I almost want to like uh uh be a fly on the wall for the creative process of this game sometimes because it's like how how are they so able to consistently blend the writing and the animation/slash art style and the music into these just perfect emotional scenes. I mean that like you said, it tugs on the heartstrings in every way, every aspect of it is just nailed. And it's not like they did it once, it's not like they did it twice, they do it a dozen goddamn times throughout this whole process. It's over and over again. It's it's it's so good. And uh I I almost about to say unfortunately. I don't think that's the right word because I don't think like there's nothing like bad about act three. It's not like the quality of the game dives, but it begins to take a very different. It is, it takes a very different approach. It gets very kind of like a mix of like science fiction and philosophical going on. Because what it turns out is that you learn that like Linry is also in a simulation, and she's been doing these experiments to try to figure something out, but it turns out she herself is an experiment, and these and there's like layers and layers of this inception style from the base reality, and that the reason all of this stuff is going weird in the mansion, you know, because she has you run in in and out of rooms to figure out why, like, why do people keep dying at this party? When is it happening? It ends up being like she finally has you go into the hidden basement of this mansion, which is basically where they're doing all the secret experiments with the memory stuff, and you get to the like room where the generator is, and this weird Cthulhu tentacle thing comes out and starts like messing with stuff. And you're like, what is this about? And it's actually Faye, as as we started to call her, which is like the way that Neil in Finding Paradise allows Faye to kind of take over as this like AI thing and deal with Colin. He ends up using that in experiments. Because as it turns out, my friends, the whole time the baby was Neil. Whoa. So he's been All right.

Speaker 2 1:37:15

Don't don't act like that. That reveal is really good. Uh it is it is pretty good. You had a very you had a very sarcastic tone there. That reveal I think is awesome.

Speaker 1 1:37:24

But it is pretty interesting. Um, but but it basically it's like the reason that everyone keeps dying in this is because we're at the final layer that base reality can support. And it's like no more levels of inception can be created here. So every time she tries to run like a further experiment, it kind of breaks up against this barrier and everything starts to get unstable, right? And the Fay is basically here to explain this to you and say, like, something here has to be done because ultimately we can't do any further experiments. And this all then kind of sends you back through Linry's memories, where you get to see an alternate reality where, as it turns out, the kid did not get the terminal illness. That isn't the choice they actually made. They instead chose to go the other route. And so Neil, while he's still born with this illness, doesn't have the same issues. And now you see all of these scenes again, but this time Lenry is in the wheelchair. Lenry has the oxygen mask, and she passes away untimely. And so that's why Neil is like a character in the real world, is because the story that you told was actually not the real thing that happened. And so Quincy kind of gets another moment, or you know, fake Quincy here, realizes like, oh my God. So we actually didn't make such a haunting decision when we made a different haunting decision. And so that means that this Linry I've been talking to the whole time can't possibly be real because she's dead. And so that's when you realize it's all these Neil experiments, and there's this really cool scene where like Faye takes the two of them in this in this air paper airplane, like the Colin airplane, up from Earth, and it's that cool pixel cinematic again that we've been talking about, and you see them coming away. And all of that really works well. I mean, even if like parts of the plot get a little hard to understand and maybe a little wonky, you still get the amazing music, you still get the super cool animations. Um, so this part of the game is really cool. It does, it does get a little abstract. I remember after this, I was like, Austin, can you explain to me what act three was? Like, I'm so confused.

Speaker 2 1:39:17

I I do think that both this game and Finding Paradise, Finding Paradise to a much lesser degree, but like both of these games dive a little bit more into like the the science fiction behind the Sigma memory machine and like what all the simulations and stuff mean, and like how it all kind of functions on like a science-y level. And that stuff I don't think works quite as well for me, but the the emotional impact of this scene is still of these scenes are still great. Like, yeah, finding out that Neil reveal is crazy to me. Like, that's still one of my favorite moments in the game because I'm just like, it's Neil! And like once you get that moment, that there's little things that if you you know go back through the games again with with hindsight, Neil's been battling a mysterious illness for most of the game.

Speaker 1 1:40:01

Um he's been taking like pain pills throughout a couple of the games, yeah.

Speaker 2 1:40:05

Right, th throughout the series. So, like, that mysterious illness you now know is okay, it's this Linry's mysterious illness. Okay. Um, there's a there's like a throwaway line that Neil says in To the Moon, where he talks about stargazing with his grandfather, and now it's like, oh my god, okay. Linry's dad took her stargazing. Like, once you get all these, it's like all these pieces click into place, kind of in a similar way to To the Moon, a little less so because it's not as many pieces like clicking into place at once, and it's it's not as easy to recall, but it's the same kind of feeling of like, oh my god, okay. So I I love that scene.

Speaker 1 1:40:45

It it is a little confusing, I think, simply because like if I had a criticism of this game, it's just maybe that they spend a little too long in act one setting stuff up that doesn't matter all that much, which then focuses or forces them to do like a huge expedition dump and like sci-fi explanation part in act three that I just found to be very overwhelming. I do think like once I had some time to think about it after finishing the game and reading some people discussing it online and talking to you, it does it does make a lot more sense, especially with the Neil connection. But it's really kind of confusing at first. But it but it still has, like you said, all these heartwarming moments. Because what eventually happens is like you sort of realize that there's a bunch of different variations of Quincy and Lenry through all these simulations. And now that we've finally gotten enough of them, or I guess Neil has kind of gotten enough of them in his experiments, Faye is able to merge them all into one. And even though, you know, it's not the like the the, I guess, like real Quincy and Lenry, you get to see this perfect version of their life play out where they get to keep the kid, Neil, at healthy. Lenry gets to grow up or live the rest of her life healthy. They both get to live to the end of their lives, their parents get grandkids, you know, all of this stuff happens, and it's just like really heartwarming. You get to see it go all the way through to the end. None of the tragedy ever happens. And it is like interesting because this I think really starts to play into the questions of like, okay, does it matter if it's not real, if it feels real, kind of thing? Like that, that whole idea. Um and Neil has a really like at first I thought it was just a throwaway line. And I think I even mentioned you, like, God, I wish they went deeper into this. But it but in a way, I think it's actually like it's trying to be delicate to its own characters, but still take a strong stance because Neil basically says, Well, that was sweet, I guessed. But ultimately, like that, that was so soulless in a way, because the only reason that perfection even exists, the only reason there is an ideal of a perfect lifetime for these two characters is because of the heartbreak they went through. And without that friction, without that heartbreak, without those tragedies, none of this matters anyway. So I think that really is the game kind of taking maybe not like a firm, strong, direct stance, but sort of nudging you in the direction of like, I'm not going to just leave this dangling of like, oh, you know, both of these things are equal, at least in my in my uh interpretation.

Speaker 2 1:42:58

Like maybe you have a different one, but no, I I think that's pretty accurate. The thing is, Linry and Quincy, it is at least heavily implied that their memories don't get erased.

Speaker 3 1:43:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:43:08

Like they still understand that they aren't real and that this life that they're living is not a real life. Like, it's it's heavily implied that they understand the context of like we're in a simulation, this is a simulated life. And Linry even says before going into it, she's like, What's the point? It's not real. Yeah. And Quincy's like, but it'll feel real in that moment, and we get to live at least something that feels like the life we could have had. And and I think you're right, it does take the stance of like, if they hadn't had that context, if Quincy and Lenry hadn't had if Quincy hadn't had the journey of seeing what Linry had gone through and Linry, the simulated Linry hadn't gone through that already, then it wouldn't have meant anything. But but it does because they did have that context. And so I think it does take that stance. And I think it it affirms the ideas that are in Finding Paradise and to the Moon, not like detracts from them.

Speaker 1 1:44:02

Yeah, and I I think you made a great point when we were discussing this before, because my initial reaction was like, God, this just seems at odd, what's at odds with sort of the lesson of finding paradise, but really it's not. It's really, it's really reinforcing the same conclusion that Colin comes to, sort of in a different context with different characters and in a different way. And there is a distinct difference because, like, this was the real Johnny in his memories, and this was the real Colin in his memories, where this is actually, this is neither the real Larry nor the real Quincy. So that's that's definitely different about it. But yeah, I do think ultimately, like having some time to think about it, this does land for me. And it does, and I think it's a pretty interesting way to wrap up a lot of the questions and a lot of the characters that we saw throughout the game. But what I think what really nails that is the beach episode. Um, was there anything more you want to get to with Imposter Factory before we hit what is real, real conclusion of this?

Speaker 2 1:44:50

Yeah, the only other thing I wanted to mention is that I I do think not having Eva and Watts in this game. Um, I do think not having them, it takes a little bit of the comedy and detracts a little bit from the comedic element. Uh not in a bad way. I think this game is a little more focused on like the mystery and the emotional elements. But we we do lose a little bit of that humor, and Quincy has a similar kind of humor to Neil, which makes sense considering, you know, father. But I will say I love Rice Bot and will die for RiceBot. Um, RiceBot is amazing. There's this little robot that ends up becoming like the the AI of the simulation. It's like the Fay of the simulated world. Um and his name is RiceBot, and all he does is cook rice. Um would you like to try some rice? He's the creator of worlds and cooker of rice. He uh his his form of emotional support is to offer you more rice. Yeah, he's just he's so funny to me. He's like my perfect brand of comedy. Love RiceBot.

Speaker 1 1:45:55

It is like they did understand like, okay, if we're not gonna have the the traditional meal and uh Eva back and forth with the comedy, we should maybe put at least something else. And RiceBot kind of takes that. Uh spot effectively, I think. I love Rice Bot. Yes, I love Rice Spot. Yeah, yeah, he's he's probably one of the best characters in a weird way, right? One more thing I think I should clarify, because I think we kind of didn't make this obvious in our description. I talked about giving them grandkids or whatever. It's Neil's fantasy plays out to where him and Eva become a couple, right? So they and they're able to have a kid, and that's what gives Henry and uh I'm sorry, Linry and Quincy like grandkids and all this. So, like, and and you know, that isn't actually what happened in the base reality, and that's part of why, you know, it isn't just his parents, but it's also Neil's life, which makes him think like, yeah, that was comforting, that was heartwarming, but it isn't what happened. And the only reason it was comforting and heartwarming is because it's not what happened. And so that's really important that it's not what happened. So yeah, I do think I kind of glossed over that part.

Just a Nice Beach Vacation... Right?

Speaker 2 1:46:53

Um and is an important context, especially going into Beach episode. Yeah, absolutely. It which is really a conclusion of this story, and there is one more game coming out, but there is one more thing coming out. But this really functions as a really strong, I think, conclusion to this to this story. And it it almost starts as like a Citadel, uh like Mass Effect, everything goes back to Mass Effect, right? It almost starts as like a Citadel style DLC where it's like very light, very fluffy, and like, oh, all of our characters are going to the beach, and almost immediately though of the characters are going to be immediately you realize something is weird because like Quincy's there, Linry's there, Johnny and River are there, you even see Colin and Sophia and Asher there, and it's like something's wrong. This isn't right, and and it really puts you on edge because it's like, what is happening here? And and I think there's some really interesting answers to that question.

Speaker 1 1:48:00

It definitely has a completely different tone at the beginning, right? Because they're in the airport on their way there, and immediately one of the first things to happen is like Roxy comes in and she's like, Oh, like I'm pregnant, uh, or she's obviously pregnant, and Rosalind and um Rosalind and Watts are like, Whoa, like, you know, who's how did that happen? And her response first I thought was really strange because it was like, Oh, don't even get me started on that fruit of a father. And I was like, Whoa, that seems like uncalled for. But then it would turn out that the reason they use that specific wording is because it's a fucking watermelon that she's smuggling under her shirt, and that gets like revealed on the plane by Rob, who like kind of takes the wind out of her sails and it's just like, I can't do this anymore, guys. It's a watermelon.

Speaker 2 1:48:40

Right, right. Like, there is no father, it's a watermelon, and it's just such a good moment. The character dynamics in Beach episode are so good with between between the four Sigmund doctors, and it's that there's just it it really strikes again that perfect balance of like fun, lighthearted, but there's something like dark going on in the background, like something doesn't feel right. We get these like flashes of like Rosalind in her apartment alone, drinking coffee, like looking really disheveled. And and there's a lot of moments where it's like, this isn't right. We're obviously in like a fake sandbox beach. That that sandbox lets you do some interesting things. Like you can play this like weird little like sports mini-game thing that uh it's like kind of fun, it's like kind of silly, whatever. Um you're like on surfboards, like whacking the other Sigmund Doctors trying to collect golden lobsters, like which is the name of the resort you're in, right?

Speaker 1 1:49:40

Like the golden lobster. Yeah, the golden lobster. It's only since the remodel, because it used to be the bronze lobster or whatever.

Speaker 2 1:49:45

Right, right. Now when you have a much better hotel, it's the the Golden Lobster now. And like you you get to have like a meal with the Sigmund Doctors, and uh but even during that meal, like something is off because there's like a scene that flashes where Neil is. Isn't in it. Yeah. And it it's pretty obvious from the beginning. I mean, you picked it up like 10 minutes into the episode. That like the the big the big thing here is that Neil has passed away. And this is that thing we saw back in Sigma episode two, right? The mini sode episode two. This is that thing that it's referencing, right? Eva's alone in her room, trapped in the Sigma machine, reliving the memories of her and Watts together because he's he's gone.

Speaker 1 1:50:32

You know, one of the reasons I picked up on it is because, like you had mentioned, I sent at the end of Imposter Factor, I sent you that still from episode two, holiday episode two. And I was like, About this shit, dude. And you're like, just play the beach episode. So the whole time of the beach episode, I am like hawkeye looking for answers to this question. And so one of the things you notice is that she has these pictures on her fridge and that kind of pixel art cinematic at the beginning, and there's three pairs of feet, and there's three figures sitting on a rock, and there's only ever three of anything. And you're like, okay, but there's you know, there's Rob and there's Roxy and there's Neil and there's Eva. This is a foursome on this vacation. So, like, is he just the one taking the pictures the whole time? Well, why would he not have his feet in the feet picture? Like, so that and then at some point they they show these pictures in a different context and he is in it. So I was like, ah, yeah, that's what it is. Like, Neil's dead. Neil's dead. He had he had the degenerative disorder, and and that eventually got him. And so this is is her way of dealing with this. And like you said, because of the flashback and because of the fact that all of these characters are here, you know you're in a simulation from the beginning, but you don't, yeah, we don't necessarily know that it's like because Watts is dead and she's trying to re-experience all that.

Speaker 2 1:51:38

And and the beach episode is like fun and neat, and like there's some cool little like references. There's this neat thing that they do where you it's called Beach of Memories, and it's you you called it like Patreon content, and it essentially is it's like backer content, right? It's it's like the community wrote notes and they're put into the game. And my first time experiencing this, I got some like really good notes that they were really emotional and deep and like heartfelt, and like thanking the team for all the great memories and stuff. And like it really got me. I was like, that was my like, man, like this is a really cool idea.

Speaker 1:52:12

And I know your experience was a little less uh Llama 458420 was here, and I was like, God damn it, I'm walking away from this beach.

Speaker 2 1:52:19

But right, it's like if if if it hits, it hits. Uh, and and the rest of the little activities you can do are neat or whatever, but the the whole point of this is the post-credits that happens after you finish the actual beach episode.

Speaker 1 1:52:32

It's it's awesome. There's a part toward the beginning. Well, there's actually a couple parts, right, throughout the beach episode where these little glitches happen when you start to talk about Neil. So, like Neil's parents are there, of course, because everyone's there. And you can go, you're controlling Eva through this whole thing. So you can go talk to Quincy and Lenry, and at one point you can ask how Neil's doing, and before they can answer, it kind of or they say something like, Well, why are you why would you ask about Neil? And she says, like, well, because then it glitches out, and then she's like, you know what, never mind. And the conversation moves on. There's another part where you can uh, you know, they're going to sleep early the night before because they gotta save that energy to party the next day, and you can ask Neil if he instead wants to go look around the resort a little more before going to bed. And he starts to answer, but then it glitches and he says, Nah, I think I'm just gonna go ahead and go to bed. And so you can get a couple of these, and that's another big hint that there's something up with Neil, right? But at one point she's like, I'm tired of this, I'm going see him. So she goes to his room and she tries to enter and it like won't let her. And then when she breaks in, it's like this weird um simulation-looking thing. It's like a almost a matrix version of the town. You know, there's this like world map for this one where you're picking the locations to go to, and it's like a sort of data code looking version of that. And uh yeah, I think you see that at one point like before the final reveal, but eventually it sort of becomes obvious. Eva is using this because she cannot move on from the fact that Watts has died. And they do they do play into the romantic aspect between them a little more, or at least like even if it's not like hyper-romantic, there's very clearly like a love between them that exists. They care about each other a lot. And she's using this as a crutch. She cannot move on. She is depressed, she's sleeping all the time. All she's doing is sleeping, drinking coffee, and going into this machine. That's another thing where I think the game kind of takes that stance, is it's like it's not necessarily bad to maybe use these memories as part of the grieving process. Uh-huh. But Neil makes it very clear during this reveal in the conversations they have that he's like, you're doing this too much, Eva. Like, this isn't helping you move on. This is stopping you from moving on. Like, this isn't a cool experience that's real because it feels real. This is uh supplanting your actual experiences for the rest of your life. This is uh being used as a replacement to forge connections with new people and other people and have these new relationships, right? So that's where I think the game gets starts to get really deep and really sad and really kind of uh gently but firmly says this is when just because it feels real, it isn't enough. Like when it's actually replacing real relationships and real human connections, this is when we've gone too far. And I think the way they deliver this message through Neil and Hurst conversations. Oh, dude, I'm it was again, it was like almost act two levels where I'm just like, oh my God, man, like this is so much. And oh, it's it's so good. The the last half hour of the beach is is probably my second favorite part of the whole run.

Speaker 2 1:55:17

Honestly, honestly, in a lot of ways, it is, because there's there's so much that is kind of teased out at the end of Imposter Factory with like them in a relationship. And I know that that Eva and Neil in a relationship to you is a little weird in Imposter Factory, but I think the added context to the relationship in Beach episode, you know, Neil even says, like that first time that you came home with me and I introduced you to my parents, like I wanted to ask you about at that time. I wanted, I wanted that to be a thing, but I couldn't because I saw what happened with my dad. I saw the way he suffered with my mom degenerating, and I didn't want to put you through that. And Eva says, and yet here we are. It's another one of those things where it's like it goes into the regrets, right? Of like, I wish I would have done that, but I wanted to do this. But Eva's like, maybe you should have, because we're still here anyway, right? I'm still I'm still suffering because you're gone. Yeah. And and it's it's just this like really deep conversation about like the meaning of life, the the meaning of memories, uh of those memories, and like what they mean to the people involved, who's left behind after death. And it's the all these games have this like really deep theme of loss and grief and moving on from loss, how you do that and what it means to move on from loss. And I think Beach episode really just nails it and like hammers it home in a really impactful way. And it'll be interesting to see what they can do in the next game. What is like this is such a perfect note to kind of end it on. It'll be interesting to see how they treat the next little DLC thing they're doing.

Speaker 1 1:56:58

But just like some of the other games did, this last half hour recontextualizes some things. It really makes the thing I mentioned earlier in Sigma episode two, where Neil gets a call from his dad and he kind of just ignores it. And at the time you're like, well, whatever, like it's not, you know, it's not that important. We don't know anything about his family. But now it's like, that was Quincy, widower Quincy, trying to have his son come home for the holidays, and he just ignores the call. And it's like, whoa. Like that that makes that have, you know, way more impact. Um, it makes it still never really explains some of the weird horror stuff going on, but it but the whole idea is, you know, a lot of this has been some sort of simulation that Rosa's going through. It's not clear what part was real and what part wasn't. I think we decided like the Sigmund episodes were probably Rosa simulation.

Speaker 2 1:57:42

Although almost certainly the Sigmund episodes, it's hard to know like if the tracing back in like to the moon and finding paradise are but they they could be, right? They could be Rosalind remembering those cases together. Yeah, exactly. A lot of it is left open for interpretation, but it is very clear that like she is using the Sigmund device to cope with the fact that Neil is gone and that he is surely gone at this point. Yeah. And that like she cannot get over that. And it's heartbreaking, it really is sad. And and I think that last scene, the there's something really cool that it does that you're sitting on the beach, and Rosalind really likes jellyfish. So Watts in the simulation has created like jellywork, like jellyfish fireworks. Yeah, that's right. So in the fireworks go out, they're a little jellyfish, which is really cute. But you're you're left sitting on the beach and you choose when to leave. That scene will play out indefinitely until you press escape. And I know you loved this. Oh, yeah. When you press escape, it sits there for a second with like Rosaline, the sound of the helmet coming off, and then she's just sitting there alone in the dark for a second.

Speaker 1:58:55

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:58:55

And oh my god, because that's actually her escaping this fake reality that she's been living in. And it's like, holy shit!

A Few "Light-Hearted" Questions for the End

Speaker 1 1:59:03

Like, this game is so effective. It's really the perfect final cherry on top of this whole journey, right? Because every game ended with this press escape to end thing, but it was just like a splash art of the credits, whatever it was, the symbol. Then you press escape and the game exits, right? And a lot of that is just because that's how RPG maker works. There's, you know, there's but but this was like you kind of expect the same thing to happen, but instead, like you said, it fades to black for everyone except Rosalyn. And then it you hear the helmet coming off, her head kind of like slumps down into her arms, and it's just the outline of her by herself, and then it and then it exits. And you're just like, God, just that extra five seconds of animation at the end just puts a whole different emphasis on all of these themes and stuff. And I just thought it hit really hard. And you know, these games all leave you feeling like, man, like, whoa, what you know, what an experience at the end. But this one, this one like acknowledges that and is like, yeah, and it wasn't, it wasn't just for you, it was for Eva too. Like this whole thing, like you think it's been hard on you, imagine how it's been on her, and it's just oh, it's beautiful, man. I thought the ending to this was just uh the perfect way to end the whole thing. So I I just want to leave off on a couple questions that I have for you that I think it'd be interesting to answer. And and the first one is sort of the obvious one, which is like if Sigmund Corporation were real, Austin A, do you think people would consider it more manipulative or mer more merciful? And B, personally, would you choose to use it?

Speaker 2 2:00:27

Um, you know, just a quick question for the end. Uh it's definitely a heavy question, right? It's definitely like right, me right now, not on my deathbed, I'm probably like, no, I wouldn't need to use that. Like my life, but like in that moment, come to it. Would I have those regrets? Would I have those things that maybe if I could have that peace going into the next life or exiting this life or whatever it is, right? Would that be comforting? Yeah, probably. You know, like like it's like in that moment when you're when you're getting close to seeing the end there, that's when you would want to use it. It's like me right now being like, wow, I wouldn't need to. Like my life will, you know, I'll have regrets, but I can hold the moral high ground of those regrets are important and and you know, they give context to and meaning to life, but in that final moment when I want to have the perfect ending.

Speaker 1 2:01:21

Yeah. Um, I don't know if you want to answer part A.

Speaker 2 2:01:25

Yeah, I was gonna well, that's what I was gonna say. I was gonna say, like, yeah, people would probably we'd probably also be seeing protests in the streets for it, though.

Speaker 1 2:01:34

Uh not to get like too political, but I think it would be a lot like something like abortion, where you have very, very strong advocates on either side of it. And that that would be that would actually be like a uh a significant voting block that would be pandered to during elections of all kinds. Right, right.

Speaker 2 2:01:51

Like like defund Sigmund Corp would be uh uh and then as far as like would I use it?

Speaker 1 2:01:57

I I've thought about this a lot over the past couple days, and I think it would be an interesting to use in the in my dying days, but I would have to make sure, like I'd be terrified to leave my wife in the position of a River or a Sophia where they're where they are worried about you know me having not understood them or why I'm doing this and all those, or them not understanding me, whatever the case would be. So it'd be like, yeah, maybe, but I would have to have a long talk with uh my my significant other before I engaged in this because I'd have to make sure that, like, especially if she dies after me, I don't want her tripping up over like why'd he have to do this kind of thing.

Speaker 2 2:02:30

Um well, and and Neil even makes a joke about like Sophia can just call Sigmund Corp to create memories where Kala never uses the Sigmund Corp machine.

Speaker 3 2:02:41

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:02:42

Like this this idea of like, what is reality if you can just erase it all? You know, like you can just you can write whatever realities you want. That's not that's maybe not healthy. So uh another question I thought would be interesting.

Speaker 1 2:02:56

Do you think like would would it have been easier on Sophia if Colin had just made it obvious to her? Like, he's very clearly so insecure about his imaginary childhood friend that he won't even tell the love of his life. And this causes her so much grief that only kind of gets sorted out in the final moments. Do you think the whole thing would have been better for her if he had just mentioned why he wanted to do it, or do you think she still would have been against it?

Speaker 2 2:03:22

I wonder if he didn't fully understand. Sure. Right? Like, I mean, like, throughout so much of his life, and you know, having left Faye behind, like, did he even fully understand that what he really wanted was to see Faye again and to like to come to terms with that part of his childhood?

Speaker 3 2:03:39

Yeah.

Speaker 2 2:03:39

So would it have been easier? Yeah, probably, but I don't even know if he fully understood himself, you know. Right. It may have been easier, but it might not have even been possible.

Speaker 1 2:03:47

Like there wasn't an option.

Speaker 2 2:03:48

Right. And I think that's why Colin goes to Sigmund with the request of like, I want my life to have more meaning, but don't actually change anything that gave it the meaning that it has. Right? Like he doesn't fully know what he wants, but he knows that he needs something else, you know?

Speaker 1 2:04:05

Yeah, there's that really cool scene where he's like taking the tour of the place, and there's all these really superficial things they're trying to push on him. Like, oh, you want to be famous, you want to be rich, you want to be that we can make it happen. And he's like, nah, I just I just don't want to feel like I have regrets at the end, but I also don't want to erase what I love about my life. So yeah, that's an interesting one.

Speaker 2 2:04:22

And and Sigmund literally comes at him like, What? Like, we can't do that. Like, that's not a thing.

Speaker 1 2:04:28

What do you want? Like, we'll take your money, but what do you want? Like, right. Um, last one, which I think will tie into our kind of closing thoughts too. Do we fall in love with these games the way we did? Be in kind of the same way the characters fall in love with their memories, which is to say, like, even though that times are kind of confusing and maybe contradictory and not structurally sound in every way, is it just because the the peak emotional moments in these games are so resonant and make us feel so satisfied in some way that we're willing to overlook any flaws they may or may not have? Like, do you think that is that even like a sort of self-awareness moment that the game series has by the end?

Speaker 2 2:05:04

Uh I mean, it's it's very possible because I mean, right? We've talked about how there's so little game to all of these, right? Like, there's a little bit of puzzle here and there. I mean, imposter factory, like, is literally not a game at all, I would argue. You control a character, but there's no puzzles, there's no game moments, there's no like gamey things. It's literally just here's a narrative, and you just kind of guide your character through that narrative. And so there's definitely this element where the game is saying, like, we we want you to feel something playing this, and and any any problems you may have with it, or any like any any hiccups that come along with it, we're we're hoping that you can ignore because of the way that this makes you feel, and and it really, I think, absolutely delivers on that, on that promise of like, we want you to feel something and really embrace and think about life and death and grief and loss and all these things. And I think you're right. I think that you can overlook a lot of the maybe little structural issues. Like, I don't think there's that many. Yeah, yeah. There are definitely some, uh, especially like in Finding Paradise and Imposter Factory. There's a few things that maybe change, but like that all, you know, right? Kind of like Colin's life, right? Like, all those little things kind of form this complete package of just perfectly resonant, and like you just sit there and you you you stop playing the game and you just go, wow, you know, like you've really been on a journey with all these games.

Speaker 1 2:06:40

Yeah, no, that's that's a really good answer. I like the way you say you mirrored uh Colin's life with it. I think that's a good answer. And yeah, for me, I do think this game understands because it's it's not the first game to sort of pose this question. A lot of science fiction does this, not quite through the memory thing, but through the um, you know, like a Detroit Become Human or a Blade Runner. It's like the AI, the robot kind of thing. Is it is it not real just because it's not an actual human or whatever? Like if it has all these experiences, is it real? But I feel like a lot of those stories kind of leave that question just sort of dangling. It's real if it feels real, right? And this game is going a step further to say, but isn't it a much more interesting question to explore why these characters felt the need to go through any of this to begin with? Even if they, whether or not they understand that it's real or not, whether or not it matters if it's real or not, let's explore why they even feel the need for it to happen to begin with. And then at the end, let's actually take a gentle and understanding and empathetic, but ultimately firm stance that like these things are real in a way, but not in a way enough to supplant real human relationships and connections, right? Because ultimately, not to like diminish someone that might have the opposite interpretation here, but I think if you take that to its natural conclusion, then suddenly you're left with the experience of like, or the the um dilemma of like, okay, so my crazy aunt who's been talking to Mark Zuckerberg on Facebook for three weeks, how do I tell her that that's dumb if we are conceding the idea that, like, well, as long as she thinks it's real, what does it matter? Like, I think it's like you have to have some grounding in reality for to like even deal with that situation. And the same with like, you know, your cousin who won't stop like talking to his AI girlfriend. It's like, well, it's making him happy, it's making him feel like someone loves him. How am I gonna tell him that that's not real if it feels real, right? So I do I do like the way that the game actually pushes it just a slight step further and says, like, there's nothing horrible about this. There's nothing necessarily wrong with someone using this to move on from something, to deal with the grieving process, but it ultimately is not a replacement for the grieving process. It is not a replacement for people, and it's not a replacement for moving on. So, because I always am like a little disappointed when a game kind of has that message and then kind of leaves it lingering. And I really, really appreciate it that this game did not do that. That it does kind of end up in a spot where with the final moment, Rosaline says, You're right, I have to turn this off. I have to move on. I'm never gonna forget you, Watts. You'll always be part of me. But at the end of the day, I have to stop sleeping all day and spending my only waking hours in this damn machine, right? So I I really enjoyed that about this game. And I think that's part of why uh by the end of us, by the end of this whole thing, by the end of Beach Episode, I'm just feeling so like this was so profound. This actually had such an impact on me because it wasn't just kind of a a cheap question at the end that it leaves sort of unanswered, but it's also not trying to be preachy. It's just really giving it an answer and explaining why it thinks the way it does, you know, at least in my interpretation.

Speaker 2 2:09:26

Yeah, I I think that's a a really spot-on look at at what Beach Episode is trying to say. And I think Imposter Factory kind of poses some interesting questions because those characters are are all simulations. It's like it's the question of like, what if we're in a simulation right now? Yeah. Do our lives suddenly not have meaning if we're in a simulation now and we we find out that we're in a simulation, right? Like, that's I think what imposter factory kind of proposes. But what Beach episode ultimately comes to a conclusion of is we have a base reality. We've established a real world in this world at least. Here's our base reality, and you have to live in it. You have to choose to live in that reality at some point, yeah, because you can't replace that reality with this one. That's not what it's here for, you know?

Final Thoughts and Outro

Speaker 1 2:10:15

Yeah, and even if it is ultimately a simulation, it is, as the game shows, the bottom level of that simulation. So it is still ultimately, in either case, the more the more paramount reality, right? Right, exactly, exactly. So Well, man, I I was gonna say, like final recommendations. I don't think we have to because it should be blatantly obvious.

Speaker 2 2:10:34

If let's say if you don't know, I mean, honestly, at this point, if you if you haven't played the game, you know what? Honestly, no, go and play them because now you have all the context you need for all the moments to hit. Even if you did listen to this without playing the game for some reason, even though we told you not to. Um, now you can go play it with the context that you need for every moment to hit as it's happening. Yeah.

Speaker 1 2:10:56

So which is obviously like a different experience, but I think also still a rewarding one. Um, because you get to see all the little details that acknowledge these things ahead of time, right? It's not a cheap twist at the end. It's something that even if you maybe don't see every part of it, it really builds steadily. And it's just, oh man, what a great game. I could not recommend this enough. Yeah. I totally understand why it's in your top 100, top 15, wherever it is. It's such an interesting series. It's so effective at what it does. It really highlights the art form of video games and of interactive storytelling in a way that's different than your Mass Effects and whatever else, because it's not about a bunch of player choices, but it is about things proceeding at your pace because you can you can stop and pause it. You can explore the actual details if you want to, you can uh, you know, spend a little time on the mini games if you want, or you can click through. I mean, everything is still done by you and and projected forward by you, but ultimately isn't influenced by your choices. So there's still that like authorial intent and and narrative straightforwardness to it. And yeah, man, I I loved this. I'm really glad you had me play this. This was such an uh an outstanding experience.

Speaker 2 2:12:01

I I figured you would probably enjoy this one. I'm glad you ended up enjoying it the way you did. I think there's so much. I know I know how invested you get in stories and in characters and emotions, and like this game just hits all of those things. And I I think, you know, we've talked about, I think, on this podcast, maybe or maybe just amongst each other, Roger Ebert's argument about why video games couldn't be art and because of the lack of authorial intent, because you can manipulate it by by interacting. But this game would argue maybe that that's not the reality because this game you are going on a journey that this that the author wants to take you on, and you can do it at your own pace, but you can't change it. This is the journey that you're being propelled on, and you just you get to feel it. And you get to feel it as you want to feel it and as as it resonates with you. And and I think to the moon for me is a near perfect example of video games as art. And the whole series is, but like to the moon especially hits me in a certain way that like video games are art, and if you tell me they're not, like I just I don't know, I don't I don't like it. I don't know what to say about that. Like yeah, like I don't know what to tell you about that. Like you're just you're you're you are purposefully misinterpreting what video games can do as an art form.

Speaker 1 2:13:21

Yeah, and even though like you can still miss out on details here and there, ultimately that's not any different than a movie or a book or a TV show. Yeah. So I I I think you're you're spot on about that analogy, is like it really does sort of like if only Mr. Ebert had played these, uh, then maybe he would have changed his mind. And that about wraps up our thoughts on Freebird's emotional narrative trilogy, the Sigmund Corp series.

Speaker 2 2:13:43

You can find this episode as well as all of our previous episodes on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or your favorite podcasting platforms, as well as on social media at the Games Gone By Podcast. And of course, you can find everything we do on our website, gamesgone by.com. Signing off for Games Gone By.

Speaker 1 2:13:59

I'm Adam. I'm Austin. Thanks for listening, everyone. We'll see you next time.