The Ring of Fire: What’s Really Happening in Northern Ontario?

After a season break, The Clearcut is back with a new mini series: Playing with Fire. Hosted by Jan Sumner, this series takes a closer look at Ontario’s Ring of Fire and the growing questions surrounding mining, critical minerals, Indigenous rights, and environmental protection.

In this episode, Jan is joined by Anna Baggio, Conservation Director at Wildlands League, to kick off the conversation. Together, they unpack what the Ring of Fire actually is, why this region matters, and what’s at stake when development is pushed forward in one of the world’s most carbon-rich peatland ecosystems. From the remoteness of the region to the political hype around critical minerals, this episode lays the foundation for the bigger questions this series will explore.

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KEY TAKEAWAYS

• The Ring of Fire is an extremely remote region in Northern Ontario with no road access
• The region sits within globally significant peatlands that store massive amounts of carbon
• The Ontario government has heavily promoted the Ring of Fire as a major critical minerals opportunity
• The area currently has exploration activity but no proven mine development
• Jan and Anna explore whether Ontario could pursue critical minerals in ways that better align with climate, communities, and ecosystems
  
  
  

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Be sure to subscribe to The Clearcut so you don’t miss the rest of the Playing with Fire mini series. If you’re watching on YouTube, like this video, leave a comment below, and share your thoughts on the future of mining, critical minerals, and environmental protection in Ontario.

Help us continue sharing independent conversations about forests, wetlands, mining, and the future of Ontario’s wild spaces by supporting the show here → https://www.buzzsprout.com/2249817/support 

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CHAPTERS

00:00 The Clearcut Returns

00:30 Introducing the Series

00:55 Journey to the Ring of Fire

06:31 How Remote It Really Is

09:19 Why This Region Matters

12:22 Mining vs Climate

13:35 The Government Push

17:19 Big Questions About the Project

19:32 Peatlands and Carbon

22:29 Other Mining Options

25:17 The Numbers Debate

31:07 What’s Actually There

32:58 Environmental Oversight

35:36 Indigenous Communities

38:23 A Project They Support

41:29 What’s at Stake

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STAY CONNECTED

Follow Jan →

LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/j-l-sumner 

Follow Anna Baggio →

LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-baggio 

Follow Wildlands League →

Website | https://wildlandsleague.org/ 

Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/wildlandsleague 

Facebook | https://www.facebook.com/WildlandsLeague 

X | https://x.com/wildlandsleague 

YouTube | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCR9Y4r80RLu55md3JJwYokQ 

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EPISODE HIGHLIGHTS: The Clearcut podcast, Playing with Fire podcast, Jan Wildlands League, Anna Baggio, Wildlands League, Ring of Fire Ontario, Ontario mining, critical minerals Canada, Northern Ontario mining, peatlands Ontario, Hudson Bay Lowlands, climate change and mining, Indigenous rights mining Cana

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Transcript

Why The Ring Of Fire Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

What if one of the most environmentally significant landscapes in the world was being framed as the answer to Ontario's economic future? Welcome back to the Clearcut, a podcast from Wildlands League where we take a closer look at the big issues shaping force across Canada. I'm Jan Sumner, Executive Director of Wildlands League. And in this new miniseries, The Clearcut presents, Playing with Fire, we're digging into one of the most talked-about and misunderstood development stories in the country right now: mining in Ontario's Ring of Fire. If you've heard the headlines but still find yourself wondering what the Ring of Fire actually is, why governments are pushing it so hard, and what could be at stake for climate, biodiversity, and indigenous communities, you're not alone. In this episode, I'm joined by Anna Baggio, Conservation Director at Wildlands League. Together, we unpack what makes this region so globally significant, why this conversation is far more complex than the ads and political talking points suggest, and why the choices being made here could have consequences far beyond Northern Ontario. Stick around.

Introducing Playing With Fire

SPEAKER_01 1:09

This is just the beginning of a much bigger conversation about critical minerals, ancient peatlands, indigenous rights, and the future we're building together. Let's get into it. This is our first time using uh doing a podcast where it's going to be on YouTube. Uh before when we did our podcast, it was never on YouTube. And as you'll noticed, I have no sidekick in Kaya helping me out today. Um, but we do have a new episode that we're running, which is um The Clearcut Presents, uh Playing with Fire. And for that, we're going to have an interview with Annabaggio, our conservation director for Wildlands Week. But before I get into that, welcome back anybody who has uh been looking forward to a new episode of the Clearcut. We will be doing some very forestry-based episodes in the near future, but for right now, we're really going to focus on uh mining in the Ring of Fire area. Welcome, Anna.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Thanks, Jan. Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_01 2:19

Awesome.

Remote Travel And A Forced Landing

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Okay, um, I think we wanted to start with a little story. Um, for many people who don't know where the Ring of Fire area is, it's quite a remote location in terms of the non-indigenous world. For many indigenous people, it's home. Uh, so this is a chance to get to know maybe a little bit more about it and how for Wildlands League we need to travel to even get there. And it's I always refer to as it takes planes, trains, and automobiles, but just to give you a sense of that, the last leg of the journey is in a small plane. And we've already traveled for hours, got up early in the morning, had our coffee or tea in my case, and then we have to be in a plane that has no washroom. Anna. How was that journey from your perspective?

SPEAKER_02 3:18

So I should preface also this by saying thanks for having me on the pod Jan. And um, I actually don't fly well. Uh my my job requires me to fly all over northern Ontario in small planes, in bad weather, uh, landing on remote airports or also landing on lakes and rivers. And I do require a lot of gravel to do that. It's just, I just have to, you know, that's just the way my body works. I'm not a good flyer. Um, but so we um made our way to Hearst, Hearst, Ontario, and we um had to fly from Hearst because there are no roads to the Ring of Fire, which is this nickname for a mining deposit in northern Ontario. And it's about 540 kilometers northeast of Thunder Bay, if anybody under is, you know, has a geography mind. And it's still 200 kilometers from the from any kind of sea, like that from James Bay or Hudson Bay. So it's not near the bay. So we've got to go and we gotta fly. And we we always great, we have great bush pilots. Uh, we haven't had, we had every time we fly, we we fly with great bush pilots. So we left early from the Hearst Air Base, and I went to the bathroom several times. I will, I mean, I I planned, I went to the wash bathroom several times, and um, it was a cold day. There was, you know, there was frost on the plane. We, and so it was it was cold. We had to wear some, we had to wear a lot of layers. We took off from the lake and it was beautiful. Like, I don't know if you remember the cutting through the fog and just rising up, and we were there was about four of us plus the pilot in the plane. And the plane's noisy, so you you can't just like turn to your your friend and talk to each other. You have to have these headphones on. And so I was in the back third. There's only three rows. I was in the back third row, there was somebody in the middle, and then Jan and the pilot were in the front. Jan was in the seat beside the pilot, and it's gorgeous. We're like flying over, you start by flying over like clear cuts, right? And roads and heavily disturbed areas, and then that kind of gives away to these wetlands that are unbroken and intact, and the water's flowing, and the colors are magnificent, and it's just it sparkles and it gets and just you're just blown away that something like this exists. And after about an hour and a half, I start to get really what's the word? I start to get like I start freaking. Let's just face it, I just start to freak out because I now know need that I now know that I need to go to the bathroom. And there is no washroom on this plane, and I'm dying. And and so I look over at Jan and I'm like, okay, she's the closest one to the pilot. So I and I can't talk to her because it's so loud. So I so I type into my smartphone, you know, like dear Jan, please ask the pilot to do an emergency landing at Coper Lake, because I really need to go and I'm not gonna make it if we don't land. And so I then pass the phone up and she sees it and she and she and she looks at it, and then she types something and then she sends it back, not really reacting very much. And I I look at the phone and it says, Why don't you just put pee in a water bottle? And I was like, pee in a water bottle? Like, I don't think you understand. I'm about to have a humiliating experience in the back seat. And and she's just kind of like, mm-mm, you know, mischievous and loving it in the front. And she did eventually ask the pilot to land on the lake, thank God. And the pilot said something to the effect of, well, I've never done it before, but I think I can. And Jan and I are both like, we've landed at Coper Lake. We know you can do it. It's a beautiful small lake. Please land at this lake. Anyways, I see the lake. That now the sun is shining. It's October, the sun is shining, it's it's beautiful. And he starts to circle to make sure there's no um nothing that's gonna get in the way. And then he lands like a champ. Like, of course, I knew he would. And there are docks there because the mining company had set up some docks. And now I'm like ready to burst. And so everybody gets off the plane, and the guys go and they're just peeing wherever they want because men can do that, right? And I'm looking for someplace that's like I need a bit of privacy. So I didn't even see the porta potty, and I just bolted around this like wooden shack and went to the bathroom. And it was the biggest and hugest relief. And then I find out that the pilot also had to go. So he was like, Oh, and I'm really glad we landed because I really had to go too. And I was like, Oh, thank you for saying that, because I was getting the gears that I was the only one, and I was forcing this plane to land. So that was just uh little um yeah, just just the way it goes sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

It's sort of explains our two personalities though, because I mean you were panicking, and I just was I could I could see you in the mirror, kind of going like, like, I have to go, I have to go. And and when I got the camera, it was or the your phone, I was just like, oh no, go on, go in a water bottle. And uh just deadpan. Meanwhile, I'd already said to the pilot, hey, can we land? Because you can't hear me, as you said, right? No, but we'd already done that, and uh we had uh boys in between us, right? That's the other thing, is you had staff that you work with. That would have been deeply embarrassing. But also when you got off the plane, didn't you see a camera?

(Cont.) Remote Travel And A Forced Landing

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Oh, right. So I'm like peeing, right, outside, and uh and then I'm like, I'm looking up and I think I see a camera at the top of this shack that is there for security purposes. And then I go around the front and it says, Oh yeah, this is this area is monitored, and now I'm like, oh god, I really who's watching me in Toronto. Yes, I'm like, please just delete that section. In case anything is visible, I'm just like, please just delete that section. Let's not, you know, let's not yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

I guess this is just a story of how far we have to go. And it's not like you're traveling on a commercial flight. Um, we were on a float plane, so that's how it's able to land on the lake. And we were at uh the access point for where they have the mineral exploration camp. There's no mine up there. It's a mineral exploration camp, and there's no mine at this juncture, and hopefully there won't be one, and we'll explain why a little bit later. But uh it's it's been closed for months. There's nobody there. It's not like you can knock on the door and say, Hey, by the way, can I get a cup of sugar and use your washroom? Like you can't do that, right? It's just you are literally in the middle of the wilderness. Yeah, the most you might see is an eagle or you know, some fish swimming, or maybe you'll see a caribou walk by kind of thing. But even if you've got a plane, you're probably going to scare most of the wildlife away. So thanks for explaining where it is. And just to reiterate, it is nowhere near Hudson Bay, even though it is the Hudson Bay Lowlands, it's in a uh an area that is uh this big wetland and uh it's a very boggy system there. And then we take off when we actually go to another portion uh of the area. But yeah, it was a memorable day and just an example of how we

A Globally Significant Wetland System

SPEAKER_01 10:21

travel there. So Anna, maybe you can um I've tried to explain a little, I haven't really explained why it's that important or why we work in this area or what we see as um maybe one of the challenges. And we've been working in this area, what, over 10 years now?

SPEAKER_02 10:38

I'm I'm kind of I'm I think I'm closer to 18, but yeah, like it's you know, the um these we have these there are these globally significant ecosystems, and this is one of them. And it's globally significant for its intactness, for these, for these really deep and rich uh carbon peat, the carbon-based rich peatlands that also help have in a tremendous amount of fresh water. We have some of the last undammed rivers that flow up here, um, the homelands of indigenous peoples, um, migratory birds, you know, just like mammals, like polar bears come in. We've got caribou and wolverine and so really important for the planet. And but our we don't but but our government and our system of actually you know handling resources doesn't acknowledge that. So for them, it's just another like a bunch of rocks or some trees to be cut or some water to be dammed. Like that's that's unfortunately how our government treats, and our provincial government specifically, because we even though there's a federal government, these things are our uh the province of Ontario is what is is what has jurisdiction in terms of natural resources management. And so we knew that if we did not get involved and do something differently, the way that Ontario has managed or overseen development further south, like where there's been forestry, will just roll up. And it doesn't serve the environment, it doesn't serve people. Communities are disenfranchised, indigenous peoples are not respected. Um, and then a lot of us end up paying the price, whether it's because of uh, you know, acid mine drainage or polluted areas or clear cuts or, you know, all those things. And so we knew that we had to do something differently. And so this is why we got involved and said, look, these are really important, globally significant areas. We have to do something different. So we've been trying now for like over two decades to work with our governments to try and not just treat these things as resources to be exploited and extracted and to do it differently. Like we're not anti-development, um, and we're certainly not anti-mining. And so, but we also know that there has to be a thoughtful way that we approach this. And so, and our government just doesn't do that. And in fact, we've prioritized mining. And so for people that are from outside of Canada or maybe from inside Canada that aren't aware, we really treat my um mining as the best and highest end use. And so then everything flows from that. And so it's really tricky when you've got these indigenous peoples, globally significant forests, and then you have a system set up just to extract. And so that's why we've gotten involved to try and change that and do something that might be more consistent with modern-day values and thoughtfulness and people and doing right by the people that live there, for example, and not just running roughshod over them. And also maybe even do right by the four leggeds and the swimmers and the flyers and you know, and the carbon in the peatlands.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

So yeah, I think uh you're right. I mean, in terms of the legislation and how land use is managed, it's all set up to default almost to extraction. And but the other thing that's changed is not just that our values have changed, the the planet has changed. We are now in a climate-changed world. We've already got sort of climate chaos and a biodiversity crisis. We've got both of those things going on at the same time, and to continue to make decisions as if they weren't happening is it's just kind of it's very ill-advised. And so I think that's that's one of the the big things here. And when we got involved, I think, on mining very specifically because of caribou. We were concerned concerned about, you know, roads or infrastructure that was going to cut through caribou habitat. Now we're engaged on all kinds of things. It's not just the the uh mining, but it's also the mineral exploration and the damage that it does to the hydrology and the carbon and certainly for the creatures as well in terms of caribou and others, it's it's definitely increasing disturbance up there.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

Hey, are you liking the clear cut as much as we like making it? Your donation helps us bring more of these important stories to life. You can actually support our work by going to our website www.wildlandsleague.org slash the clearcut, or you can click the link in the episode description below. Your support means the world

The Government’s Ring Of Fire Push

SPEAKER_00 15:16

to us.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

One of the things um, you know, if I were to add that so our our premier has really spoken a lot about the ring of fire and has invested heavily his reputational capital. He's, you know, he's got a he's got a uh bully pulpit. They've been they've been blanketing the airways last fall in the World Series with commercials about just how important the Ring of Fire is to protecting Ontario. And part of our job is to give independent information to Canadians so that they can kind of hear another perspective so that they're not just going to hear what the government of Ontario is saying, which is that this area is essential for critical minerals. Um the premier has presented it, and the premier and the Ontario government continue to present it as if it is the only source of critical minerals in Ontario. And so when we looked at the map, when we looked at Ontario, Ontario is actually very rich in critical minerals elsewhere. So Sudbury is an internationally renowned area for nickel. And Timmins is also a really important area for critical minerals. And when I when I speak to my friends in the mining sector, because I have a bunch and we we chat and we laugh and we talk and you know, they're like, yeah, you just have to find a, you find a have to find a deposit preferably near a road so that you can have access to it. And then, you know, you have uh you want to make sure you've got good relationships with communities. Communities want you to go there. And then you're gonna do right by the environment. You're gonna make sure you take care of the health of your workers, you're gonna pay your taxes, you're gonna do all that. And then you, you know, we can have we can we can have critical minerals projects, and Ontario has a ton of them by roads, in Timmins, in Sudbury, in other places, in areas that have already been exploited. And so for us, it didn't make sense that we should have our government obsessed with a deposit that is so far away from roads, and that he was willing to bring out

Bill 5 And Rule-Free Zones

SPEAKER_02 17:15

a legislative bazooka to make sure it happens. And that bazooka was something called Bill Five last year, where he they tabled legislation that said we are gonna create special economic zones. And in these zones, no laws of Ontario would apply. So you can just designate an area and be like, you know what? We don't need to worry about the environment laws. We don't need to worry about, you know, public consultation, health, safety, whatever. This is just gonna be a proponent, you get to do whatever the hell you want. And that's the bazooka he gave himself last year because he said in his mind he needed to do that to protect us from Donald Trump. And so we're like, wait a minute, you're attacking us to protect us? What? I don't understand. And by the way, why aren't you looking at deposits of critical minerals that you say are so important that are already existing in your roads, that have already got mines built, where the community wants them? Why are we forcing a conflict with indigenous peoples? Why are we threatening these peatlands? Why are we spending billions of dollars on a road, a new road, a new road, there needs to be a new industrial road built that we have to pay for as the taxpayers, that is essentially going to be a subsidy to this comp to these companies. And why, why? And so if anybody out there knows why the premier is so obsessed with the ring of fire, please send us a note and let us know because we're just not understanding that Ontario is rich in critical minerals. We don't we could do so much without ever touching the ring of fire, and we don't have to like cause so much conflict with indigenous peoples or put at risk these ancient peatlands. So that's some of the context that we're trying to help um, you know, the public here.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Yeah, we're probably in another in other episodes we're going to actually uh drill down into some of those issues because you've highlighted a number of things there. One is are indigenous people in favor of this project? Are there other projects that exist out there? How much is actually there in terms of the Ring of Fire find? Um, is it a proven case for a project? Is there actually even a project there? Those are all questions that we have. And and uh you remark on the the ad campaign, some people might have seen it in the World Series if you're chairing on the Blue Jays, as many of us were. You saw the ads that were playing repeatedly in Ontario. They've been playing repeatedly. I'm sure that they saw them in the US as well, or I imagine that also happened. So so it looks like it's the only project that the Ontario government is in favor of. And frankly, it's also made it up as an ask of the federal government to support this. And we're now starting to see um worrying signs of where there is a an expeditious lens taken to clearing the way for uh extraction to occur in the Ring of Fire, even though it's not yet a proven case for a project. And as as you allude to, it's billions of dollars to build a road that's probably going to sink. So it's and as we talked about at the top of the show, this this is a very remote area to get to it, to extract these minerals, even if they were worth it, it it just costs billions of dollars to get there. Um so this is the the the conundrum that we are in. We don't understand. We understand why we need to do critical minerals, we understand that that's good, but we also understand why it needs to be kind of aligned between nature and climate. Like there's no point in going getting critical minerals if you're actually going to release more carbon and CO2 into the atmosphere than then you save by doing electrification. And and when we've done the math and we've looked at it, that's certainly what the it suggests for the ring of fire. Not suggest it is what happens for the ring of fire. So that that's

Peatland Carbon And Net Zero

SPEAKER_01 21:12

of concern.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Well, and and the scientists, when we work with so many delightful scientists um on this, peat scientists at the University of Toronto, at Wild Wildlife Conservation Society Canada, and others, and they've like they tell you how much carbon is there. And it's shocking. Like there is more carbon in northern in these peatlands per square meter. There's five times more than there is in the Amazon. Now, our audience may be shocked by that because they tend to, everybody tends to default the Amazon's really important for climate. And yes, it is. Absolutely, it is. We ought to do right by the Amazon and right by the people that live there. But we also need to do right by our own uh Hudson Bay Lowlands or the breathing lands, as the indigenous people call it. And there is so much carbon stored. In the soils. Now, these are these soils are different. They are peat soils. This is where we have this partially decomposed plant material and then it accumulates over thousands of years. And so I think we're very familiar with old growth forests, especially in Canada, we certainly are. You know, on the West Coast, we even have old growth forests in Algonquin, tamogamy. But we're not, we're only just starting to turn our heads to what it means to be an old growth wetland, or in this case, an ancient wetland that is thousands of years old. When a meter deep, it takes a thousand years. And then if you know your your these wetlands have four and five meters, six meters, we're talking about thousands and thousands of meters of thousands and thousands of years of carbon that's been accumulated. And we can't get to net zero by 2050, which is the global goal. If we're going to prevent catastrophic climate change, we need to be at net zero by 2050 if we don't keep these things intact. Because our whole system is set up that we we need those things to keep absorbing the pollution, whether it's from land use change or fossil fuels. So we need these natural ecosystems like the forests, like the ocean, and like the peatlands to keep keep absorbing and then keep it stored. And so our our like well-being depends on us keeping these, these, uh, these uh wetlands intact. And and our government is like, we only want to see dollar signs. Woo, we only want to talk about uh resource extraction. And so we are having a so we're trying to find a way to be thoughtful about it and say, okay, let's have mining here. Let's just not have mining there. And then let's let's listen to what the priorities of the people are. Like, what are the communities concerned about? And so these are all the the challenges that we have right now. And we're learning and we're and we're uh and we want to try and get the mess, might get some of these things out there to people so that they can kind of start to understand more, as opposed to just being slapped with these commercials and interrupting your, you know, enjoyment of the Blue Jays and feeling like, what what what okay, I guess, mining, okay. Like they, you know, how are people supposed to make sense of all this? And so hopefully we can give them something to help them make sense of it.

SPEAKER_01 24:09

Yeah, I th I think it's difficult for people because everybody recognizes that we are in an economic, economically challenged time, right? And and so everybody wants to do well. They want to see investments by governments. And I don't know, it's just I feel like it's really unfair to only present one project. Like I even think about the other mining companies, and I think, man, if you're working away, you're doing all the things that you're supposed to do, you're filling out all your forms, you're getting your environmental assessments done, and you've got more critical minerals in your mining project, and it's only uh two years away, and yet you can't seem to get the profile, or you're not being out there, and uh government's not necessarily pumping, pumping you up. How does how does that feel? And and you're also listening to a government saying, well, we're gonna subsidize the road to get there for this mining project, which it basically drastically changes the economics for them and makes it potentially more viable or potentially more profitable. It it feels like an unfair playing field in a way, right? And and the average Canadian, the average person, internationally or in Ontario, won't know. They won't be able to sort of sort through that. And that's why I really like the work that you did, which was looking at what are all the other mining projects out there and and and to to give to just provide some information. Anna also sat on the, she was actually appointed by a previous minister to sit on the minister's mining advisory council. When she says mining folks are her friends, that's when you spend eight years with them and you're revising policy for the province and you're doing all that kind of thing, it all of your positions and titles and et cetera drop away. And you become, you have a relationship that's professional and respectful, and you end up being able to finish each other's sentences and have conversations and and be very real with each other. And so this is this is what Anna enjoys in her professional life with a lot of mining folks, and and I also have some of those relationships, et cetera. But so we we actually see them, we we hear from them. They're kind of going, I I don't get it either. And so this is the problem that I have with it. It it I think it creates an unfair advantage and it skews the playing field and it tilts everything towards that project. And it is like every day we see it being pounded out by this stripe of government in Ontario. And it like I get it, make economic progress by investing in critical minerals and mining. But you don't have to go after the most expensive project that'll take ten years to get there.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

It's it's like it's or that'll destroy the peatlands, or that'll foment conflict with indigenous peoples, you know, like, or or or like, you know, we're we're there is a way to do this thoughtfully. And um the you know, the ring of fire was uh this

Job Claims And Missing Evidence

SPEAKER_02 27:13

commercial, right? The province did these commercials, and the commercial said that it was gonna create $22 billion and 70,000 jobs, and this is why we have to mine the ring of fire. And so we looked at those numbers and we're like, okay, where did those numbers come from? And Ontario never gave us any background. They never provided any supporting documentation. And so we asked some experts. We're like, okay, what do you think? And they're like, well, the region doesn't even have one mine. There is not even a feasibility study for one mine. And even if there was, you wouldn't even get close to those numbers. The region doesn't even have three. The region would need to have 40, 40 before it could even get to that close to those numbers of promising to add $22 billion to the Ontario economy. And that's, and the other thing that we did a bit of digging on, that's equivalent to about what the entire mining sector offers Ontario today is $23 billion. The Ontario Mining Association put that out a couple of years ago, put that out last year. That's what the entire mining sector does is $23 billion. And it has a workforce of $150,000. Ontario ran ads saying that they were going to match it and then have jobs, at least 50% of that from the ring of fire alone. And so it just, it was irresponsible, it was reckless, and it had no basis, and it's it's just not we with without proven, without a proven feasibility, economic feasibility, I it just it boggles the mind why we're still talking about these this area instead of talking about all the other sites that could have been that that are actually viable, including Brownfields in Sudbury. And so it's challenging and it just runs against some of the disclosure rules that, you know, politicians can skirt disclosure rules and all these things. And so we're um hopefully we can get to a point where we can have a more like real conversation about mining and do it in a way that is thoughtful because so many of the mining leaders are thoughtful. These they're these are very thoughtful people, they're very smart people. They know how to do this, they understand what it is to do in indigenous relations, they understand the environmental imperative. They've got kids that look them in the eye and say, Daddy or mommy, I don't want you destroying the environment. Um, and so they know. And so this kind of one is still just an aberration for us and doesn't make any sense. But the risks are so high that it's not something we can just ignore.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Yeah, and I think that uh up until recently, because um I I guess because of the the tariffs and the economic um uncertainty, uh, this project really sort of sat for over 10 years where it just wasn't moving forward because um there was nobody willing to back it or to say, oh yeah, let's go, right? Even governments were kind of like, oh, why would I invest that much money? And now, because of all the hype, it seems to have taken on a life of its own and it's getting promoted by the Ontario government. But I'm also concerned, as I know you are, about how Canada is c also potentially clearing the way for this project to happen. When

Better Options Than The Ring Of Fire

SPEAKER_01 30:19

it when you could look at, like we've identified at least, and we'll get into this later, we've identified at least 11 or 12 other projects that don't require that amount of money to get to, have a shorter timeline. And that's the other thing that just uh befuddles me, which is if if we've got an economic crisis right now, right now, and maybe it lasts for as long as the the Trump era presidency exists, but that's not 10 years from now. That's right now. So why aren't we investing in mining projects and critical mining projects that actually have more minerals than the ones in the Ring of Fire and take less time to get to are almost shovel ready. And yeah, and and there are numerous ones of these, right? And and I mean, we haven't even talked about re recycling, you know, in terms of you're trying to get nickel. I think it was and you did some work on where the US gets some of its nickel and what was it, 25% comes from recycling? So it so even just in terms of thinking like thoughtfully, like in terms of what is our climate-aligned critical mineral strategy, something that actually makes sense for the planet, makes sense in terms of climate change. Don't destroy more carbon than you're trying to save. That's just ludicrous. Um, and don't go and spend money that you don't have to and do it in uh a timely fashion. Because the other thing is that battery chemistry is changing. And so by the time we get there, we get to these critical minerals, I also see the potential for it to be a stranded asset. So it's it's uh yeah, I think all of this is, these are all questions that we have and concerns that we have, and we have a lot more information to go into that. And Anna alluded to that video. Um, and we'll we'll try to post this. I don't know if it'll be in this episode or maybe another one, but Dave in our shop did a an examination of that and he looked at the video, and all of those ads, none of the images were from Ontario. None of the images were from the Ring of Fire. We because Anna knows, because we had to stop at Cobra Lake and have a rest stop, use the washroom. Um, we know exactly what it looks like. We've been there as recently as October. We know exactly what the Ring of Fire looks like, and it's a bunch of outbuildings, and they've uh you know done some exploration, but there's no mine. There's no mine there.

SPEAKER_02 32:47

Yeah, I mean, I guess we should so the so the ring of fire itself is a nickname, right? It's not an actual thing. So the ring of fire is a nickname that some people gave to this part of Ontario because um it's the the the deposits supposedly are in the shape of a ring or a crescent. And then also the person was a Johnny Cash fan. And so that's where this Johnny this ring of fire came from. So it's a it's not it's not a real thing. It's just um it's just a nickname. And so we don't have a feasibility study for a proven project. We don't. We have a lot of hype, we have a lot of people talking. We have a company that has got uh an exploration camp. Um, there are several camps. We have buildings that are kind of you know rudimentary buildings. We have we've we've seen them clear land. The other, we have uh mining claims and mining leases. And so those are uh those are some of the things that we have right now. And it's a lot of it is early exploration. So if you're familiar with the mining cycle, you have you're supposed to prospect and look, you know, kind of look at what's there, then you move into early exploration, then there's advanced exploration, and then you get to full mind development. We're not even at full mind development. But I wouldn't be surprised if many Canadians thought there was full mines there because that's what Doug Ford told them and showed them photos that had, you know, people in underground mines and yellow vests. And I was like, that's we don't, there's no mines here. Um, so we're so that's the so the ring of fire is uh so that's the you know, that's kind of that's one of the the things we're we're struggling

Who Decides When Rules Don’t Apply

SPEAKER_02 34:22

with. And like, how do we the questions that we that that we also ask and that we can get into is like, how should resources be extracted in Ontario and in Canada? Like, who should get to make the decision? And right now, communities are being pushed out, you know, not-for-profits, you know, we who cares about us? Like we're sure we have opinions, but people, you know, the government does not-for-profits. Um, and that's who we are. We're a not-for-profit, but communities should have a say, indigenous peoples, there should be a nation-to-nation relationship. I mean, what just happened is that Nishkanaga First Nation asked the Impact Assessment Agency of Canada to designate a project in the for the supposed to be the first one in the ring of fire to actually have an assessment. Let's review this project, Canada. Canada, you should review it because Ontario doesn't require it. Ontario is the only jurisdiction in Canada where you can it doesn't require mines to undergo an EA, an environmental assessment. And, you know, the Auditor General has said our our our the Environmental Assessment Act is 40 years old, horribly out of date, needs to be updated, and but it doesn't apply to mines. So we have this deficient system, and it's been dis you know, it's being dismantled by this current government and weakened and diminished. And so the First Nations don't have any place to go. And so they said they turned to Canada and they said, Canada, please you know, let's examine this project, the Eagle's Nest Project, using your legislation. The president of the Impact Association, the president of the Impact Assessment uh of Canada responded in whatever it takes, three, three, three months, and declined. Declined to designate the project with some very strange reasons that we'll get into in a in a uh future episode. But really, and and that's that request to designate the project, it was a reasonable one. Let's look before we leap. Let's talk about, you know, how can this, you know, what would this project look like? What are the impacts? What are the costs? What are the benefits? Let's not just hand this all over to the proponent to do it by themselves. And then that's basically what the president said of the agency. No, no, no, the pr the the proponents, they say they're gonna do a do a good job. This isn't our jurisdiction. We're not gonna get involved. And so we have the federal government vacating the scene, we have the provincial government decimating the regulatory system, and indigenous peoples are just like left holding, you know, going, what are we supposed to do here? And us as observers, we're like, this is not the way to build a mine. This is not the way to instill confidence in the public and and and and and um, you know, give us confidence that the system is going to protect us and protect the people and ensure some good products. So this is something we'll get into in uh in in future episodes, hopefully, with you know, why they did that, what is this weird thing on jurisdiction, and and what can we do about it?

SPEAKER_01 37:16

Yeah, we'll also get into because uh I think something that's also happening in the public sphere is it's um um the Ontario government stands up with a couple of the First Nations who are uh in in the region and says, oh, look, they're supporting this road to the Ring of Fire. Meanwhile, what they're supporting is a road to their community because they want community access and it's being um marketed as a road to the ring of fire. And and I think it's uh me personally, my personal opinion is I think it's a little bit unfair because of course communities want access and using their their need for community access as a as a way to market uh the ring of fire. We'll also get into things that cover like uh like in terms of what is what who are the companies that are invested in the ring of fire and and how is nickel right now? The price of nickel is, at my understanding, is going down and other nickel projects are being sort of mothballed right now because it's not worth it. So so it it again, it uh it sort of begs this question like, why are we putting so many resources in Ontario into this as an economic strategy to help Ontario at a time of economic need? It seems I I don't know, it doesn't seem like it's going to have an economic return. It feels like it's maybe someday, somehow, somewhere, but especially as we move into, and I'm gonna diverge just a little bit, um, countries around the world that are climate aligned have marketplaces like the EU, the European Union, that are saying, you know what, we're gonna start lining up all of our investments so that they have to demonstrate good climate values. Doing something like this does not actually help us open up those European markets. It actually could backfire on us. So that's that's one of the other things that I'm concerned about as well. If you like listening to the Clearcut and want to keep the content coming, support the show. The link to do so will be in the episode description below.

SPEAKER_00 39:20

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SPEAKER_02 39:35

There's so much to talk about. I guess uh maybe we should maybe we should think about like what's on uh uh you know, um so the so we've got the you know turning down the Nishkandaga request for an EA, um, Ontario and Canada kind of aligning themselves to get projects built, you know, build the build baby build. Um, but is there a way to build and be thoughtful? And is there a way to do it and be respectful of First Nations? We think so. And is there a way to do it where we can actually address our climate concerns and our biodiversity concerns? Like how do we can we don't have to sacrifice who we are, we don't have to sacrifice our natural world to do these projects. And so we look forward to, you know, how how can we do talking more about how we can do these pro do some of these projects in a way that will benefit us and hold help us hold true to our values.

A Better Model For Mining

SPEAKER_01 40:25

Yeah, and just to give you one example of that, something that I think um when we talk about how we do work with industry and how we have um uh friendships and relationships that are respectful with various industries, whether it's water power association or forest industry or the mining and prospecting industry. In fact, the very first task I had when I came on board at Wildlands League in in 2003 was to sit down with the prospectors of association of Ontario and work through uh a disentanglement process where a previous government had said, oh, we're gonna put a bar a bunch of parks here. And they said, Oh, well, hang on a second, there's some claims that exist. And so we had to disentangle over a hundred sites and and just working through that process, you you you develop a relationship. But but what was interesting about this is when um different mines were being thought about and there was uh uh uh Canada was thinking about which ones to designate as major projects, et cetera. And the very first thing that they did was to um, I don't think they designated it as a major project, but they took the Crawford nickel mine and said, we're going to basically hand it over to sort of a concierge service. In other words, we're going to, you know, allow them to move forward and get um some treatment by the federal government that helps them through the process, not skirt the process, but helps them through it.

SPEAKER_02 41:52

Technically, I think it's called a referral to the major projects office is the language. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 41:56

Yeah, that's how they talk. We were going to refer this project to the major project's office. Okay. So when they did that, I think we were the only environmental group who came out and said, that's a good decision. That's a good decision because it's a good project. And yeah, they still have to meet all their tests, they still have to pass all the assessments, et cetera. But it's a good decision, and we were willing to stand up and say that.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

And we we thought it had potential to help with the green energy transition. And uh we had observed that that company doing a lot of work, you know, whether it was with the indigenous peoples or whether it was with the local community in Timmins or some of the surrounding municipalities. Canada Nickel did a lot of good work to try and and and and put in the time and and listened. And people want that people want to see that project be successful, and we think it has a lot of potential. And so we we certainly, yeah, we supported that statement, the that project. And hopefully it can it can continue on the right track and maybe be a good example of how things can be done.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah. And it's got, what was that, 1.7 billion tons of nickel?

SPEAKER_02 43:01

It's got a lot of nickel.

SPEAKER_01 43:02

Yeah, it's got a lot of nickel.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

It's got a lot of nickel. It has an indigenous nation that has uh equity partnership, like of their own money. Um, you know, I've seen them in meetings, the the people at Canada Nickel. So I'm I mean, there's I think there's some like I said, like we're not anti-development, but we we do have a lot of questions, and we're not, you know, we're not pushovers either. Like you people have to like, you know, if you're gonna if you're willing to do the right thing and do the hard work, we're gonna we're gonna say it. But if you're just gonna, you know, get involved in some cuckoo stuff, well, unfortunately, we find ourselves dealing with some cuckoo stuff.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

So things that don't line up don't make sense. Yeah.

What We’ll Unpack Next

SPEAKER_01 43:38

So so I think we've left a lot of breadcrumbs out there and ideas and things that we need to dig into a little bit more. But basically, what we've tried to explain is that the Ring of Fire is at a very remote location for access to extraction. It is an area with a lot at stake. It has been, it's part Of the Hudson Bay, uh James Bay Lowlands, which are um uh a large wetland with peat bogs. It's part of the uh Anna talked about the Amazon forest, but there are five large carbon vaults on the planet in Canada, Russia, um, Southeast Asia, the Congo, and the Amazon. And Canada's um the second largest. The largest is in um Russia. So we would be ill-advised to treat this as a destination for mining where we could potentially upset the carbon balance even more of the planet and also reduce the capacity of the planet to absorb carbon. And so this is these are big issues for us. And then at the more local level or the more impact level, it's also an area with, and we'll get into this as well, it's got a lot of mercury in it. And um and it also was potentially going to be mined for chromites, so there's also complications in terms of when you do that. So there's a lot of downstream, or is what I've heard indigenous nations call it being downbog, because they are downbog. It's all that is water moving um to the ocean. And then you've got the ability of those um impacts to hit wildlife and food sources for many indigenous nations. And so we'll talk a little bit about that more, and we'll also um uh talk about some of our relationships and what we see as where the indigenous people are and and even some of the legal challenges that are going on and how the legal uh system is working or not working, especially when we can bring them on, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Yeah. Bring some of these people on. They can speak directly to the to the audiences.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

So that'd be fun. Yeah, that would definitely be fun. Um and so we'll we'll try to unpack all of that and we'll maybe give you some more on the carbon numbers and uh see if we can get one of the scientists to come on and talk about that. We know that we have recordings of some of these folks, and we've been at many, many, many, many presentations with them. Uh so we'll try to unpack all of that. Um, and other issues that you want to do. Uh we'll probably also talk about um uh you know the presentation on just where all these other critical minerals are and how available they are and and um and allow people to see for themselves so that it's not just us telling them that that's the case, but you and I think you use the government data. Just like we didn't even use, it's not like we made stuff up. Anna went and used the government's own data to figure out where are all the best critical mineral finds out there that are not threatening indigenous people are not going to harm the planet in terms of the carbon reserves, et cetera. So we'll unpack more of that as we go on.

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Uh I'll just flag for people indigenous peoples are not monolithic. There's a ton of them, they all have different opinions, and you know, um hopefully we can uh shine a light on that and um and hopefully we can talk a little bit about how our government can do better.

SPEAKER_01 47:05

Yeah. Thanks, Anna, for being on the pod. This is going to be an exciting ride, playing with fire. All right, thanks very much.