The Commission Files
Journalist and broadcaster Will Leitch brings you regular Christian faith stories and meets the people making a difference in society. Produced by Commission Christian Radio
The Commission Files
Conversation, not Confrontation
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Dawn McAvoy is used to having calm, thoughtful, respectful conversations, even when others sometimes don't seem to want to. She's the UK Lead for Both Lives at Evangelical Alliance UK. It describes itself as a pro-women AND a pro-life movement. As Dawn tells Will, they're imagining a people and a place that value the life and health of women and unborn children, and pursue the wellbeing of both. Listen to her Dawn's story...
Produced by Commission Christian Radio
Hello, I'm Will Leach. Here we are with another episode of the Commission Files from Commission Christian Radio. And this time, a subject that society doesn't have fight over. And I, for one, think it's far too important and fundamental to who we are to indulge in fighting over. It's much more important that we discuss it, learn from each other, and are open to learning and understanding and thinking about something without betraying anyone or anything. Bit of radical thinking for the 2020s there. Anyway, here we go. Pregnancy, human dignity, and the value of every life before and after birth. And I want to introduce you to someone who thinks about all of this all the time. And really, really wants us to understand the nuances of all of this and remember how people, particularly women but not exclusively women, might be feeling, especially when we're all jumping up and down about our own particular point of view. So welcome to Dawn McAvoy, the Both Lives Lead with Evangelical Alliance, and a presenter of the Both Lives podcast, which Dawn makes along with her colleague Lisa Barr. Dawn, welcome to the Commission Files.
SPEAKER_05Thank you very much. I'm delighted to be here.
SPEAKER_01Both Lives, what is it?
SPEAKER_05It's a collaborative movement. We began in 2017 in Northern Ireland, as Both Lives Matter, designed to speak into what was then a particularly focused legislative campaign about the law in Northern Ireland. So we launched with three founding partners, Evangelical Alliance in Northern Ireland, CARE and the Life Charity. Now, fast forward to 2026, and we're a UK-wide initiative of the Evangelical Alliance designed to speak about both lives in pregnancy in a way that challenges the pro-life versus pro-choice debate that so often just counters any proper conversation about a solution to pregnancy crisis that's life-affirming.
SPEAKER_01I love those words proper conversation because when people ask who you are and what you do, the first question you get is which side are you then? Which lot are you, pro or anti?
SPEAKER_05Mm-hmm. So we reject those labels. I mean language matters, you know, and we use language to communicate. But for us, it's it's not about being put into a box. Um a pro-life label puts you into a box that says you're anti-woman, you're backwards, regressive, and you're possibly a religious nutcase. So we say we're pro both lives. We're both we're pro the woman and pro the unborn baby in every pregnancy. So we're pro both, and that requires a conversation that is seeking common ground to enable both lives to live and thrive together rather than have to choose one or the other.
SPEAKER_01I bet you both sides want you to choose one or the other, though.
SPEAKER_05Yes. So often the pro-choice label, I think, really is only talking about one choice, and that's abortion. And many within the pro-life community they speak for the value of life, but they don't really want to talk about the very real crisis situations that women face. Not in a way that actually requires us to get our hands messy and and also actually our minds messy, really thinking about real-life situations that situationally none of us would want to be in.
SPEAKER_01It is a big deal, I think, for a lot, particularly in Northern Ireland for a lot of Christians, to contemplate a concept or an idea that they have spent their lives not contemplating or maybe even taught they shouldn't contemplate. And there's a fear in what might I become if I even consider this. And of course, considering is just thinking for a bit, isn't it?
SPEAKER_05I think a lot of people are very genuine in their thinking and they'll say that they're pro-life, but they haven't thought about it with the required depth, so that when real crisis points hit, whether that's a friend or a family member or themselves, they haven't thought deeply enough to think what would I do in this situation? Does my thinking still hold true and fast? How would I respond in a way that is life affirming if I really am pro-life?
SPEAKER_01We'll come back to all these issues in a moment, but uh I'm thinking about what caused you to form what was then called Both Lives Matter. And it was before COVID, and it was a period of direct role when, perhaps not surprisingly to people from Northern Ireland, guess what? Stormont wasn't sitting, we'd had a collapsed assembly again. And therefore, in many ways, our laws were being made by people for whom we could not vote and had not voted. What was brought in, remind us.
SPEAKER_05Well, f when we launched actually Stormont was sitting initially, but yes, then when it collapsed, um we had foreseen, I suppose, that there were activists working in Westminster and at Westminster who were seeking the opportunity to take political and legislative change outside of the hands of Northern Ireland to bring it in from Westminster. So when our assembly was taken down, then those same people, politicians, medical activists, and social justice activists, pro-choice activists, actually were lobbying to introduce the decriminalization of abortion into Northern Ireland. They were saying there was a human rights requirement, really through the Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women and Girls. So they were saying it was a violence against women and girls issue and that Westminster had to intervene, even though there had been a review from the British government to say that there they were human rights compliant, and there were also uh legal uh experts who were saying there was no need to intervene, but still those activists were saying on a human rights basis the law had to change.
SPEAKER_01The law that came in here in Northern Ireland says what and how did it fit within the rest of the UK at that time.
SPEAKER_05So in 1967, abortion was legalized in Great Britain and it hadn't been in the same way here. Many people in Great Britain thought in 2019, when the law was changed for Northern Ireland, that it was just going to mean we would have the same law that was then in existence in England, Wales, and so on. And had been in GB for so long. And had been for over fifty years. In effect, that's not what was being done. But I just don't think back to needing to have time and space to have the conversation, too many people just didn't understand. So in England, Scotland and Wales, it is still the case, although the law looks likely to change, but it is still the case that abortion is illegal except for specific legal grounds. So, generally speaking, it is now available on request up to 24 weeks of pregnancy in England, Scotland and Wales. Beyond that, between 24 weeks and up to 40 weeks up to birth, it's more restricted. But a woman needs to go to an abortion provider and forms need to be filled in and there needs to be evidence of need. In Northern Ireland, what they did was say, we're going to remove the criminal law that underpins the medical framework, the regulatory framework, so that a woman at any point in pregnancy can self-induce up to birth, and there would be no criminal offence for doing so. At the same time, they would introduce a medical framework that looks different to what's provided in England, Scotland, and Wales, but would similarly provide for abortion on request up to 24 weeks.
SPEAKER_01So this unique set of political circumstances along with the social movement made a change to the law here which was more radical and went farther than anything else anywhere in the UK, is that right?
SPEAKER_05Yes. It removed it took us from being the pl one of the places in Europe that was most protective for both lives and pregnancy to having the least protection. One of the places with the least protection for both lives and pregnancy in Europe. So every unborn child was removed from every explicit legal protection.
SPEAKER_01That begs the question. In this case, you did have to take a stance. What was your stance? Where did you stand on that law?
SPEAKER_05We said that the law that was in place in Northern Ireland was a moral and just law. That the law recognised and respected that there were two lives and existed in pregnancy, and as far as humanly possible, protected both. So no woman should be at risk from a pregnancy where her life is in danger. The law would permit medical experts to intervene to save her life, and that was right and just. But it was the case that the law said the unborn baby matters and cannot have their life terminated unless there's a very good reason, a medical reason.
SPEAKER_01Now the reason you came to mind when I was thinking what will I do on the Commission files was because there's been a vote about this decriminalisation that's already happened here. Am I right, for England and Wales? It was a vote in Westminster. Yeah. The Commons have voted on it, the Lords have voted on it, goes through all the stages as all laws do, and the king gives it royal assent, and then we get a date for when it becomes law. So it is happening in England and Wales like something like it has already happened here, is that right?
SPEAKER_05Yes, so the law will in effect say the same thing that unborn children have no more status than being the property of their mother. They won't have a distinct status in law that protects and respects them in England and Wales, much like here. So any woman who is currently sitting listening to this who is pregnant needs to understand that the law doesn't respect her onborn baby the way that she might think that it should in a modern civilized society. So in effect, the law sees one person in pregnancy, not two.
SPEAKER_01That was a fascinating phrase, a modern civilized society. And I know you've used the phrase before, a compassionate society. As you see it as both lives, what does a compassionate society look like for women in pregnancy?
SPEAKER_05I think women are uniquely able to conceive, bear, and nurture children before and then after birth. The law should recognize the uniqueness of a woman's biology and fertility. There are very few women in pregnancy who would think that the law shouldn't recognize that there is them and then within their womb their unborn child who is most likely already loved and cherished. So a civilised society that is modern would align their laws with the scientific and medical evidence. Never mind the humanity that we all know inherently that is that recognizes two lives in pregnancy.
SPEAKER_01You see, I know the passing of the law here in Northern Ireland and in England Wales is a challenge to you, but it's a challenge in a way I think I wasn't expecting until we first met and spoke, because it's a challenge to those of us who care about these things to have those proper conversations and to look into these issues and think about them a bit. And back to where we started, be a bit brave and think about things you might never have thought before. And and that's the challenge for you. And I'm looking at you and thinking about your colleagues and thinking that's one big job you've taken on, Don. Because people in the 2020s do not think well and rationally always about are they for or against something beyond that they're for or against it.
SPEAKER_05Do you know I think generally speaking, we need to all think more highly of our society that we live in. So outside of social media and maybe contrived debates. When you're having a conversation with friends and family members or even a stranger on the street, back to suppose our conversation about labels, no matter what label people align with, and most people may align with a pro-choice label, but in my experience, most people also in conversation actually align much more closely with what I'm saying than maybe I or they would expect, or certainly you would think, given the polarized nature of this debate. There are very few people, apart from extreme pro-abortion activists, who will deny the humanity of an unborn baby right up to the point of birth. There are very few people who will say that unborn children and women in pregnancy don't deserve special recognition and status and protection in law. So for me, the key thing is finding the starting point where we can agree and then we can talk about maybe where there are question marks and where we might think differently.
SPEAKER_01Right at the start of the episode, I mentioned the Both Lives podcast that you present. And I'm going to let folk hear a little clip of it. It's a clip, you hear how the show starts, and you hear Don introduce a guest, and you hear a bit of the conversation with the guest. So have a listen to this.
SPEAKER_05Welcome to the Both Lives Podcast, where we talk about pregnancy, human dignity, and the value of every life before and after birth. We are pro-women and pro-life because both lives matter. Welcome to the Both Lives Podcast. And today our guest, our very special guest, is our colleague Alicia Edmond, who's the head of policy for the Evangelical Alliance. You said that you at one stage would have identified with the label of pro-choice.
SPEAKER_00There definitely was a period of time in my life whereby I didn't have a faith lens perspective on the issue of pregnancy, of life issues, on the issue of abortion. I would say, particularly the age range of around age 12 to 24. Did I know in its bodiment what pro-choice meant? No, but I knew the slogans, and I was very much a rebellious young woman at that time, and so my body, my choice was very much encapsulated in my own perspective, my own thinking, and never really critically assessed what that actually meant in practice. What does that actually mean? My body, my choice, what is the outworking of that? And as with anything, I've been on a journey of faith of uh the Lord really challenging me to examine that thinking and examine um how he speaks on the issue of life, pregnancy, and all other issues. So yeah.
SPEAKER_01So that's just a little bit of the Both Lives podcast. Why that guest to start with? Why Alicia Edmund?
SPEAKER_05When Alicia um first started working with the EA and I was chatting with her, she told me that she would have, in a previous season, called herself pro-choice. And that always stuck with me. And we hadn't had the chance to talk about it straight away. Then when we did, I just found and felt I found it fascinating, but also felt a lot of other people would find it fascinating as well. And her journey, her faith journey, but also her journey in thinking would I think connect with a lot of people. It's not my own story. I have always felt very strongly. I can remember at school having a little lapel pin, the two little feet. So I never ever didn't value life before birth. So would never have argued for abortion. So to have a conversation with someone who did and hear why and why they changed their mind, I just thought was fascinating.
SPEAKER_01So there is value in conversations, I know this sounds radical, but not at all to me, I love it, with people with whom you do not agree or did not at the start of your conversation.
SPEAKER_05Exactly. And I mean, how else? I suppose it's like many things. If you can't have a conversation with someone that you disagree with, is that because you don't want to be challenged on your own thinking or you feel that you can't articulate yourself in a way that will make sense? You know, it's back to that echo chamber, I suppose, type of idea. And I don't think any of us should have any interest in that.
SPEAKER_01You made a really good point, and I completely agree with you, and um uh Stan corrected because I said the way we have debates in society now. And you're quite right, the way we have debates in social media is not the way most of us would have debate around the dinner table or around the living room or around the sofa or wherever. And it can be quite different and much more civilized. And I also think we take the time to listen to each other.
SPEAKER_05Well, exactly. And I mean if you were sitting across from me now and there was something that um I felt we might disagree on, I always think a good rule of thumb is to think, well, if I can't say this to Will because I like him and and want to have a good conversation, if I can't say this in a way that opens up the conversation or in a way that isn't going to cause harm or offence, maybe I shouldn't say it, or say it in that way. You know, if the if the idea is to open the door to conversation, then I think that makes life much more interesting and actually achieves an objective, which is the whole point. Whenever you feel strongly about something, you want to change society, you want to have cultural transformation, and for that, ideally, the rest of society joins you.
SPEAKER_01So the both lives podcast is in series two. Before series one, you'd never made a podcast in your life. How do you find it?
SPEAKER_05I would still say we're learning.
SPEAKER_01Um that doesn't stop, don't worry.
SPEAKER_05No, no, and you both yes, exactly. You never stop.
SPEAKER_01I'm learning today.
SPEAKER_05I think for me it's I love having conversations with people. So if I can nearly forget the fact that it's a podcast and other people will be listening and just have a conversation that I find interesting, then hopefully um we can there are skills to learn. We I'm sure we can make it better. But yes, very scared initially. And then when I just thought, well, I just think about it as a conversation, then it seemed much more accessible.
SPEAKER_01Well, radio presenters trick that one. The feedback, the responses you get, what have they been like?
SPEAKER_05Overwhelmingly positive. In season one, a lot of our guests used the phrase space and time. We need space and time. They needed it in their sphere of work. But actually that's what we were hearing from listeners, that they appreciated the time for the conversation. They appreciated listening in, they found it informative, they found it challenging and inspirational, hopefully. But more to the point, it was just a conversation that they generally speaking weren't hearing anywhere else and weren't having because they didn't have the confidence to do so themselves.
SPEAKER_01You're listening to the commission files. Time for a quick break.
SPEAKER_03He heard God's command.
SPEAKER_02Our Lord God is grieved that his people have broken their covenant with him. He has pronounced that there will be no further rain. So you think your God can hold the rain from falling? How dare you speak to me, your king, in this manner!
SPEAKER_03He confronted the priests of the false god.
SPEAKER_02Our nation has long awaited this moment. You cannot waver between two options. If the Lord is God, follow him. But if Baal is God, follow him.
SPEAKER_03And when his work was done, God provided him with a successor.
SPEAKER_02It is not my decision, but the Lord God's. But Elisha, remember this. The Lord God instructed me to anoint you as my assistant and successor.
SPEAKER_03Commission presents Elijah by Noel Spears. You can hear this series and many others. Just search for Commission Radio Drive. Wherever you get your podcasts.
SPEAKER_04Hello, this is Drew Gibson, here to remind you about Commissioned Sister Podcast Faith, Hope, and Sport. Great interviews, great sporting stories, and plenty of reflections on how lives of Christian faith and competitive sport can be lived together. Find us wherever you look for podcasts. Just search for Faith, Hope, and Sport.
SPEAKER_01This is the Commission Files with Will Leach, and we're discussing pregnancy, childbirth, and abortion and how to have sensible, helpful conversations about all of this with Don McAvoy of Both Lives. I wish we were a video podcast because anyone looking at our Dawn right now, if their French O level or GCSE was up to speed, would realise that she's sporting the slogan in French, I have nothing to lose. Let's get an idea of you and who you are and how you ended up doing this. Tell us about growing up.
SPEAKER_05Grew up in Northern Ireland in a a Christian home, probably a home that many people listening from Northern Ireland would relate to. My friendship circle, my social circle was church. I had parents for whom church wasn't cultural, it was lived out in our daily home life. And I feel very blessed to have had that. Grew up with a twin sister, a younger sister, two foster brothers, grandparents lived in the house. So it was a busy home. Parents who loved us and looked cared for us, yeah.
SPEAKER_01What did you study? What did you want to do, be, learn about, become goodness.
SPEAKER_05Um wanted went to university to study Arabic. You did not.
SPEAKER_01I did not know that.
SPEAKER_05Did we not have that conversation? That's a whole other whole other life away. Went to university to study Arabic. Always say now. It'd probably be much harder to get in.
SPEAKER_01How's your Arabic now?
SPEAKER_05Oh no, it's rubbish. I can't remember anything. Um nobody wanted to maybe, or not as many people wanted to study Arabic at that point. So um not being a linguist, I look back now and laugh at the fact that I was accepted. But anyway, yes, had grand plans of travelling the world and um tying in Arabic with uh Islamic art and architecture.
SPEAKER_01So being in the Middle East, probably.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, always loved that part of the world. Yeah, spent my gap year in Israel. So yes, had uh grand plans maybe. However, I also had a childhood sweetheart. We'd grown up together, and um while I was at university, I found out that I was pregnant. So that changed, I suppose, one pathway became another, and we got married. I left university, didn't finish my degree, and we got married and um started our family.
SPEAKER_01You have used a phrase today, and I've got to ask this uh several times crisis pregnancy. There you are, happily married with a grown-up family and grandchildren. Can you look back at that time and think of it as a crisis? Because this is your child who's a huge part of your life.
SPEAKER_05I was just talking about that recently with someone. It's like I suppose there it's not the only time in life where you hold two things in tension. So it was a crisis point because it wasn't planned. I knew that my whole life was changing. Now she was wanted. It wasn't for many other women where it wouldn't be a wanted pregnancy or baby. My boyfriend, my now husband, we'd been planning to get married after I graduated and after he'd finished training, etc. So in many res in many respects it wasn't unwanted, but it was certainly a crisis point and decisions had to be made. It was very upsetting for my parents. It was hard for me because I I did make the decision to leave university and get married. I felt that was right for me, but I also knew that then I was saying goodbye to a life that I thought I might have had. So I suppose I sit now 30 years later and I can hold the two things in tension and say I wouldn't change anything. But it doesn't mean I don't question what that other life might have been. But yes, I now have four grandbabies with another one on the way, and it is a reminder that they're all really young. They are. The eldest is four. They're all from four down, and um it is just the best thing ever being a grandparent. You get all the fun without any of the stress and responsibility, and I wouldn't change it for the world. But it doesn't mean it was easy.
SPEAKER_01Again, I'm trying to get into the heads of some of the people I think might be listening right now. And you said it was very hard for your parents. Yeah. That will have been hard. That will have been difficult. There will have been a sense of mistake made here.
SPEAKER_05I think again, everybody's story of a crisis in pregnancy is unique to them. For me, I had grown up with my boyfriend, they had known him from he was little, so they had comfort in that. They knew him and his family. But they also knew me, their daughter, they knew my hopes and dreams and aspirations and ambitions, so they grieved for what they thought I would be missing out on and losing. But back to I suppose that faith journey through childhood, for my parents, their love of Jesus was so real that the crisis of pregnancy didn't change how they valued me or valued the onborn life. That was a surprise. And that's not a story that I have heard from too many women who've shared with us how their parents, when it came to it, did not support their daughter facing a pregnancy crisis and felt that it would be better for all concerned that an abortion would be had, and then the daughter, for the women who've shared their stories with us, then they were the one that was left grieving and their family moved on and they were left holding that hurt and pain for potentially decades. Too many church-going families who don't think about it in the depth of a way that they need to. So their pro-life position is situational, it's not true and sound.
SPEAKER_01These decisions are for other people, not people like us.
SPEAKER_05Not when it comes to my door, not for my daughter. My daughter's bright, she has her whole life ahead of her, this would ruin her life. Um and oftentimes it's a genuine sense of compassion and concern, but I think also it can be the fear of the shame or the stigma, or well, I don't want to be left holding the baby. So they don't want to step in and maybe help their daughter to continue in the studies or the career path that maybe that she has started out upon. And I think the pro-choice mantra of, you know, my body, my choice, actually that's that's all that it is. That picture of a woman left on her own. It's her body, it's her choice, she sorts it, and everybody who says it's her body, her choice, they don't actually have to do anything in the end to support her.
SPEAKER_01It's a common complaint amongst pro-choice people, of course, that those who say pro-life aren't there when a baby is born and helping and encouraging and nurturing in the way that that child will need. Uh and I know you're well aware of that. Is your own story it definitely helps you, I don't doubt, with the way you do your job and the way you think about your job and the way you interact with people in situations, not a million miles from your own in the past. Is it part of the reason you're even doing it in the first place?
SPEAKER_05It possibly is. I think maybe a seed was sown. Um I had the support of my boyfriend and our parents and our church who helped us set up home. But like I said, many, many women don't have any of that. Now, for ten, fifteen years I didn't think about it in a way that it would be taking me down any sort of a career path. It was something that had happened to me. You were busy being a mum of several ways. And um and I think then, but because of what had happened in my own life, when the opportunity came up with my work to start engaging in a policy sense in that pro-life space, undoubtedly my own experience then became more pertinent and relevant. And probably I thought a lot more about it than I ever had in years.
SPEAKER_01Because you do your job, you go about all sorts of places, and frequently from church to church, and you talk about let's discuss this, let's understand this, let's think in areas we haven't thought before, let's think about our response to this. If we are against a particular law, here's why, but at least it's a considered response. And sometimes people will have very clear attitudes in their head about what is right and what is wrong. You must get criticism from within churches, from within people who consider themselves sincere, believing, thinking, thought-through Christians who say, What do you understand? You don't know that's wrong, that's not scripture, whatever. You must get that.
SPEAKER_05There is some. I honestly would say it's the criticism is less than just the unwillingness to engage. I think there's a fear of engaging. Not many people actually have come forward to offer critical thinking, they just don't engage at all. And I think that would be the one area that I would really invite people to step into. Challenge me. You ask the questions, engage in a way that we're both challenged. But for too many people, I just think they don't want to think about it in a way that challenges behaviour.
SPEAKER_01You see, I think for a lot of people there's a fear of getting it wrong. There's a fear of putting your head above the parapet and getting into a debate that at times can be pretty darn toxic, and consequently they don't want to be in the middle of that. And there's a fear of being seen to be, particularly among the evangelicals, quote unquote liberal, which is a very different meaning on both sides of the Atlantic, but my word, not everybody grasps that. And they're scared of being part of what can be a rabid public debate, so they just don't engage at all. Now, as I could see it, your message is not engaging at all simply isn't good enough.
SPEAKER_05It's not, and I think it's also because, as someone said to me, this is for people within the church. It's a whole other conversation for outside of the church, but for people within the church, this is a sanctification and salvation issue. As abortion laws change, and we said earlier they ch they laws matter in principle and practice. You know, they set a standard for society, and then how they're applied changes society. And there are too many people sitting in churches who aren't thinking this through and applying the sense that life abortion is wrong and life matters before birth as well as after, but they limit that to the abortion conversation, so then they don't think about it when it comes to contraceptives, they don't think about it when it comes to family planning and baby loss, they don't think about it in the context of IVF and surrogacy increasingly. So when there's no consistent thinking or theology, there's no point in only having a conversation about abortion. And I think that's a lot of times why people don't want to talk about abortion because they sort of know it's like opening a can of worms. Because if they're talking about abortion in church and we're talking about when life begins, that impacts how we respond pastorally and theologically to all of those areas of life. Now, like I said, that can be scary, but I don't think we have the option to not begin to engage with it. Women are at least 50% of our congregation. We might think in Northern Ireland, most women in our church bodies haven't had an abortion, but a lot of women will have had miscarriages, some women will have had abortions, many women will be entering into fertility journeys and have questions for us as church leaders and friends within the church. So we really need to begin to grapple with all of this and the value of life and what it means to be made in the image of God to then be able to have a voice that uh speaks with integrity within and out with church.
SPEAKER_01Here's the nitty-gritty question then. To enable all those positive things you've talked about to happen, how on earth do you do that? Now I know you're not that very long since we've sat down together today off a plane, going all round the place because you've been thinking about churches and pregnancy crisis round tables. Doing what? Achieving what?
SPEAKER_05I don't claim to have all the answers, and I also think as both lives we're limited in what we can do. So I think we have to remain focused on our message. Um and then there are other groups and organizations who can step in to be more specialist in the area of, for example, baby loss or um fertility. But what we're wanting to do with church is bring a consistency and a connected conversation to open the door to conversation, to resource the church where we can, specifically in the area of abortion, and a woman who wants to continue in her pregnancy would rather not have an abortion, and encourage the church to draw alongside and support her in that life-affirming decision. And then over time we begin to have those other applied conversations. Well, what does that mean in this area? What does that mean for this part of my teaching? What does that mean for the pastoral care in the church and this conversation with this couple who are struggling to conceive or have just experienced baby loss? So, what we'll do is signpost them to, and that's part of the pregnancy crisis roundtable is working with allies and partners who each can speak to specific areas and are experts in spaces and places where we just aren't, and but we'll certainly help collectively the church have that conversation, teach those truths, and respond with compassion.
SPEAKER_01And in meeting church leaders, um Scotland, England, here, I've noticed in the most recent runaro, are you encouraged? How encouraged are you with the way they've responded to the ways you're helping them to think?
SPEAKER_05Very encouraged. Sometimes you are just so aware of all the things you want to do that you're not able to do just yet. But the desire, the overwhelming desire to respond with compassion, the belief that God's way is good news, that there is a good news story from the church for women who are facing pregnancy crisis. There's a good news story from the church that can wrap their arms around families who are struggling. Church leaders want to be part of that good news story, so where we can help them, we want to encourage them in that along with others.
SPEAKER_01And the thing you started pre-COVID for a particular set of circumstances, it was probably planned, well, it was planned to be time limited. Um, six, seven years later. Don, you're still doing it. How did you get here?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we're on that journey with God. Who would have known? I suppose when we started, we thought it was time limited that yes, the law would stay or fall. And then it was just that realization that regardless actually of what the law says, this is bigger than just a conversation about the law saying yes or no to abortion. And I suppose we've always said that right from the start. We've said ideally, society, it's a threefold approach that society needs and the church as part of that. We need laws that respect and rip and protect both lives. We need services that enable both lives to be chosen, and we need a culture that affirms every life. So ideally, we have all three together. But you take the law away, we even more need services and culture. So it was that realization that it's not over. The law has been removed, but we live within a medical health care framework that simply isn't doing enough for women facing pregnancy crisis. It's put in a health care box, but most pregnancy crises occur because of social socioeconomic circumstances. So it should be in the health and social care box.
SPEAKER_01Could it be in a pastoral box as well?
SPEAKER_05It should be in a pastoral box in churches. And culturally, employers, friends, family members, everyone has a part to play. And for many of the women who shared their stories with us, actually they didn't need the government. They maybe don't even need or didn't need a third sector provider. What they needed was their partner to say, it's okay, maybe it's not the right time, but we can do this. Or friends or family members to support them, to help them choose life for their baby. So that I think is the joy that keeps us going whenever it all seems too big. That actually on one level it's very simple. Both lives matter, and for many women to choose life, they just need their friends, their family members, their partner to stand by them.
SPEAKER_01Don, I can't thank you enough for taking the time because I know you're busy and you've run from meeting to meeting today and crammed your little hour in studio two in with us. So thank you so much for coming in, explaining who you are and what you do, for being so candid, for being amusing, for taxing my French translation with that. And thanks to everyone else for listening. Do subscribe if you haven't already. If you want to learn about making radio programs or how to support Commission in our work so we can keep going, try commissionradio.org. There are ways to support us. You'll find links to our YouTube channel, Instagram, Facebook, and LinkedIn pages. And I'll be back soon. Until then, bye-bye.
