The Four P's of a Thriving Classical School w/ Matt Skinner | Part 2 | The Furrows

Matt Skinner, longtime head of school at Heritage Classical Academy in Atlanta, Georgia, returns for part two of his conversation with Ryan and Alex. 

This time, Matt unpacks the four-pillar framework: purpose, people, programs, and place, that guided Heritage from a bold vision to one of the most respected classical high schools in the country.

What's in This Episode:

• Why purpose must come before everything else, and how a clear destination statement creates guardrails for every major decision
• How Matt recruited top-tier talent from within his own community, often before he had a defined role for them
• The financial philosophy behind investing in people ahead of revenue, and why a scarcity mindset quietly kills school growth
• What "hoarding talent" actually looks like in practice, and why a three-year investment horizon is essential for developing leaders
• How Heritage approached beauty in its facilities as a direct expression of its mission, and why stewarding what you have matters more than the size of your building

Chapters:

• 00:00: Welcome and Introduction
• 01:43: The Heritage Story and the Four P's Framework
• 02:52: Purpose: Building a Clear and Compelling Vision
• 05:17: People: Hiring for Mission Alignment Over Credentials
• 16:09: Fundraising and the Abundance vs. Scarcity Mindset
• 21:00: How to Identify and Recruit Leaders
• 34:27: The Portrait of a Graduate
• 40:22: Programs: Letting People Build What They Believe
• 49:41: Place: Beauty as a Reflection of Mission
• 57:29: The Strategic Financial Plan: Define, Determine, Deliver

Resources Mentioned:

• The Herzog Foundation
• Jim Collins, Good to Great (the flywheel concept)
• C.S. Lewis, "First and Second Things" in God in the Dock
• Society for Classical Learning
• Arcadia Education
• Classical Learning Test (CLT)

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education.

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Welcome to the Furrows Podcast, a podcast where we talk to people who have been transformed by classical education. My name is Ryan Klopak. I'm the director of Executive Search for Arcadia Education, and I am joined by my co-host, Alex Julian, the director of the Classical Backlaureate at TLT. Nice. We're joined again by Matt Skinner for round two, because it was just so good the first time. Yep. So, Alex, why don't you set the stage a little bit? Where did we leave off and where are we going to start?

SPEAKER_01 0:41

All right. So if you're one of our awesome listeners and you're just going back to back on this, then you are uh you're gonna remember it even better than we did because it's been a few weeks for us. But uh where we left off was um Matt was uh uh at um Heritage, was pitching the idea of this high school that was gonna be very different than most other high schools and uh had been in classical education for a while, but this was his first chance to really build something from scratch. Um and Heritage in Georgia, uh Atlanta, Georgia, is is an incredible school, and so we want to uh really push Matt today to dig into what made it so excellent. Um and anytime he's being humble, just chastise him so that uh he can give give the wisdom that that other school leaders need for creating uh uh excellent schools.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

That's right. God abhors the proud, but we do not in this case. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 1:41

Yeah. I can assure you, no one that is listening that knows me thinks anything about ever attaching humble and me and me together. So a statement of humility, right there.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Yeah, that's that's not a humble courage.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Exactly. Um yeah, so so Matt, let's pick up where you left off. Uh you were trying to convince the board to do this thing. They trusted you enough to do it, uh, but then you were a few years out from opening it and executing it. What did that process look like? And and what do you where do you feel like you guys got it right? Um and were there any were there any elements along the way where it could have gone really wrong too?

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Yeah. When we made that decision, the board made the decision to start the high school and started down that that path and that journey. Uh then it was really um getting uh fine-tuning the the vision, something that we could articulate clearly. Um but eve even backing up from that, it was really my board played a significant role in drawing it out of me. I they knew uh because I'd written kind of a Jerry Maguire mission statement uh one night about what I wanted to see in the high school and what was different. And um they uh they knew it was in there, but they had to really draw it out. I wasn't great about uh just you know being able to freely talk the vision and uh or at least in a board meeting. Uh I wasn't always coming to them and telling them everything that I was doing. So they had to work to draw it out, which really helped me kind of hone and and shape it. But when I when I think about it, um, and I've kind of developed this over the last uh few years of really kind of articulating this even better. Uh I look at it as a circle that's got a bullseye, and then there's three areas around uh that bullseye. Uh, and those are really the four uh things that uh we began to look at and craft and create. And so we call them the four P's. And it really starts with your purpose. Why do we exist? What is it that we're attempting to do? Uh and and and getting really, really clear on that. And and the the mechanism that we use to do that was the portrait of a graduate. And uh, and our one of my my board members uh was instrumental in really helping us develop that. Um and so you know, once you get that purpose, then you begin to build out from that. And the three uh the three uh rings around, and they're not even rings, well, probably rings would be a good way to look at it as well. But the first one is people. Uh we I I knew that I wouldn't be able to pull this off myself. I mean, I've got certain skills and and and talents, but I don't have them all. Uh, and and and certainly not the ones that are necessary to see a lot of things through and the details and all of that. Uh so beginning to build and assemble that team was really, really critical. And what I wanted to do, I used that purpose statement as really the filter for for my team. Uh, who is going to become on that team? Are they able to really buy into what we're talking about? Do they understand this new concept that we're uh or new iteration of what we're trying to do in in a high school? And uh, you know, one of my first hires uh was as far as looking forward, was my headmaster. Uh I had the the incredible um you know luxury of being able to hire a headmaster to really think about the operational aspect of the school where I could uh spend time thinking about the the vision and and the strategic planning and you know uh really serving at a CEO level and having a COO that was handling a lot of this stuff. But we needed to be in sync, and and I was very fortunate because uh that person uh was Aaron Haym. And Aaron was happened to be a mom in the school at the time. Uh I was doing a search for a new headmaster, and uh she had made an appointment with me to come in and talk to me about education policy. That was her uh what she did. Uh she was uh uh an attorney that did education policy, uh, and so she wanted to talk to me about some school choice things that were going on in the state of Georgia and how we were responding to it. And uh it probably about halfway through the meeting, I I just stopped her and I said, Would you consider becoming my headmaster? And uh she she was very polite and uh said, uh, well, no, not really. Uh and I said, Would you pray about it? And uh she said, Well, I'll pray about it. And so we considered a conversation. But I could see that we were aligned in the way that we were thinking about things, and and and she and Ben, her husband, uh were really, really strong, were a strong family in the school, uh very missionally aligned in in what we were attempting to do. So I just said, uh, okay, well, let's pray about it. And uh I think I called her like within a day or two and said, Okay, I prayed about it, and I've got my answer, and uh wanted to see if if you had. And uh, you know, long story short, um about a week or or two later, she came back and said, you know what, I think the Lord's calling me into this. And uh and that was really kind of the first uh real kind of you know, rung in the ladder for us uh to be able to move this high school vision forward was getting somebody like Erin and her capabilities on board. Uh and then once we began working together, I mean, it was not very long into it that uh, you know it it was, you know, she was finishing my sentences and I was finishing hers. And it was very, very clear that God had brought us together with a shared vision of what it was. And she really, really uh was attracted to what uh what we were uh attempting to do. And and she was very good at organizational details. I mean, phenomenal on that, which that's not me at all. Yeah, uh I'm vision, I'm big uh cast a big vision and and and talk to people. But if you want to curriculum and all that stuff, I I need somebody else to do that.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

So well, you need people in the right in the right places, right, for the right things. Ahead of school, if if you're just ultra detail oriented and you can't do that other thing, then you're kind of wasting talent in that position. But I I think it's amazing that you pulled someone from your community because you know when we're giving advice to people who are looking for talent, um we're we're saying, are you looking close are you looking in your kind of closest rung first, your closest circle first? Uh and I think most people don't, because especially in education, there's this idea of well, they have to be credentialed in this way, and they have to have all these boxes checked. And when you were just talking, I didn't hear any of that. Uh you know, I I'm I'm sure that she had some good experience, but um but it didn't sound like that was at the essence of what you thought would make a good working relationship for headmaster and head of school.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

No, uh now she was a teacher when she first got out of college. Sure. Uh and and spent a year or two teaching, but then went back and got her law degree and then went into actually served for uh the governor uh in in pretty high capacity uh roles there in in the state of Georgia uh for I think for Kemp and and uh and Purdue. Uh but and was well respected and then had gone out on her own with our own consulting um education policy consulting um firm. Uh but yeah, I to be honest with you, if you know, if you ask me, would I want somebody that's got all the credentials or somebody that really really gets what we're trying to do, I'll take who whoever gets what we're trying to do all day long. Credentials mean very little to me, and that probably a lot of that is is is my own journey. Uh stepping into a as a head of school, as a CPA, having no educational background. And so I really uh kind of gravitate towards that. I'm I'm much more concerned with the heart and with the attachment to the vision and and the alignment that takes place there than I am uh with um you know the credentials. And I'm gonna go off on a tangent real quick, but that's what drives me nuts about uh teacher hiring. Yeah, absolutely and teacher uh salary schedules. Uh if you really want to get me going, get me talking about those because the the two things that we track and pay on, you know, degree and years of experience are not indicative of success. Uh and and and yet we continue to have this antiquated uh really uh bad pay system uh for for that. But anyway, they uh so we agreed. We could talk a lot to that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

I mean we were on a call the other day with a school leader who was saying, in a private setting, why are you even doing contracts? Like you know, it's just the things we don't think about that why wouldn't we do it more like the private sector does it, especially if you're in a private school and you're not dealing with districts and unions and things like that? Um, why not hire people and evaluate them and pay them according to their job performance and not not have this thing where you're negotiating year after year?

SPEAKER_02 11:30

What a novel idea. You actually get paid for how good you are, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:35

Versus your experience and credentials.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Was that a hurdle to overcome with the rest of your board, the lack of credentials for her?

SPEAKER_02 11:43

No, uh uh I don't think so. I mean, I I think I had a couple of conversations with a couple of boards that uh board members that that questioned uh the decision because they didn't they didn't know her. And um and and so, but they uh they were a good board. They knew that I was the the sole employee and it was my decision, and and they got they supported me in that. Um and I think you know, within a uh a few months I knew that she was going to be my successor at some point. And so we had the privilege of working the six or seven years together that we did really on a succession plan for her to take over, which she did in uh in June of last year, and is just continuing to uh to take heritage uh forward, uh, which has been really, really neat to see. So, you know, there's a lot, there's a lot packed in that uh of you know succession planning and where you're finding people and how are you determining who's gonna come alongside you. But really, it it again it goes back to purpose. She knew that uh what the purpose uh and what we were trying to accomplish. And so uh she was the first kind of domino to fall on that. And then we got um another gentleman uh from our community. He was a um the husband of one of our teachers, Anthony Shuba. Oh, yeah. You guys on the podcast, by the way. Yeah, and Anthony, we hired him to come in and be our academic dean. We actually hired him to come in to be a middle school teacher just uh part-time. He was getting his doctorate, and uh, we eventually uh settled on him being our academic head, uh, academic dean for the high school and to build out the curriculum. I mean, if you know Anthony, he's unbelievable. Yeah, uh, and so you just see God beginning to bring these people in. So you got Anthony, then we had a uh another teacher in the school that I thought was would be uh that Aaron and I both thought that would make a remarkable leader up in the up in the high school. Um and so, you know, finding and and this is one of the things where we really did a a good job, and and I don't say that in in a braggadocious way. I had a board that resourced me and resourced us to be able to hire almost a year in advance of what we needed. So we could bring people in, they could work alongside uh teaching in the middle school uh something, but also developing curriculum uh for the next year. And we did that all the way up. I mean, when we started ninth grade, we hired 10th grade, some 10th grade teachers. They were able to teach and build cricket all the way up into the the senior year. So there's a lot of factors that went into the success of what we were able to build, but first and foremost, it was people, and it was people aligned around that purpose.

SPEAKER_01 14:38

I think that that's great. Um I want to dig in there a little bit. Um you know that we can go the people route. I do want to go the the money route too, though, because so yeah, let's go there for a second.

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Uh well, what are the other two P's first?

SPEAKER_01 14:54

No, no, no. We'll get there. But you want to go down money? Yeah, the second we do the other two P's, everyone can tune out. They're just waiting for those. We won't give those until the end. No. Uh on the money side, um you know, you you said you had a great board that was willing to do this in advance. Yes. But that should be the norm. Because if you're starting up a business, like no one starts up a business that they can't capitalize except for schools. And I know that that like that's a hyper hyperbole right there, but it does seem like schools and maybe churches, uh, people say, like, I'm being called, and so we're just going to figure this out along the way. Um, and I I love the energy there, but if it's truly worthwhile, you need to capitalize it. Like that should be the norm in the industry. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

Yeah. And there's a tension there because it's not necessarily that we had all of this money. And we we built up some reserves, and I knew and projected what we thought that it was going to cost uh to start and launch the high school. Uh and you know, it ended up costing about twice as much as I thought it was. I underestimated. Uh, and that's all on me. I I consider myself fairly good at projecting, uh, but I I really uh underestimated uh and and almost all of it was uh personnel costs uh over the course of that that five years. And um so but there is this, we didn't have that money sitting in the bank, and and this is where I talked to people about risk and the willingness to step out and and and take a step of faith. There is a step of faith involved, but it's not a blind step because I'd worked so hard to create five and ten year uh projections that I knew that if we could if we could work through this four, five, six-year uh period, we would come back out of it on the other side. And so could I cash flow it? So that's where that becomes an issue. It's not necessarily that I've got all the capital, but can I cash flow it internally to make this happen? And because of some things that are unique to heritage, we were able to do that. Uh, you know, we're not out of it yet. Uh we're still uh, you know, it's gonna be another year or two before we get back up to where we need to be with hard income coverage and things like that. But we knew it was a risk to step into this. Uh, but it wasn't just, you know, let's take a risk and because God's with us, he's gonna bless us. It was a measured, calculated risk that we wanted to take. And um, and and I think there's so there's a little bit of tension on both sides. Yes, it's a you need capital to be able to do some of the things you want to do, but at the same time, you've got to have an idea of what cash flow is going to do. Uh because generally speaking, you're gonna you're not gonna get a lot of people, especially with a school that's launching a high school, uh, you're not gonna get a lot of people that are gonna trust you enough to say, I'm gonna give you a couple of million dollars, go do this. Sure. Uh but uh if you can demonstrate some stewardship along the way, uh you can you can begin to put those things uh together.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah. And I think that's what I mean, like looking at the financials in a way where you aren't forced to be um in in starvation mode, uh where you're where you're not forced into this cycle of uh well, we just can't make those decisions because we we don't have any sort of money coming in.

SPEAKER_02 18:36

I think people are and and and and that's a great point, Julie. And what that talks to, and and and I think I might have said this earlier, it's a scarcity abundance mindset.

SPEAKER_03 18:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

And so many educators uh and uh and Christians to a certain extent are just scarcity mindset that we've got to be a good steward. We have to, and what I usually say, I they you can kind of uh interchange stewardship with cheap. Uh you know, and and there's a big difference between being extravagant but being committed to doing something excellent. Yep. And and that's where my board was really, really helpful, and especially my board chairman, because he doesn't do anything halfway. If we're going to do it, we're going to do it right. And we're going to do it at an exceptional level, which really gave me the wind beneath my wings to be able to do the things that I needed to do and make the decisions uh that I needed to make and to understand that uh, you know, he he was gonna have my back on that. Uh, that if we had to hire an extra person, we would hire an extra person and we'll figure it out. But Matt, you better show me how it works out. Right. You better have this, you know. It just like I said, it just can't be blind faith. But uh, but show me at least how we're gonna get out of this hole.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

That's great. Well, let's go back to people. Uh I know, I know you felt uncomfortable getting out of the second P all.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Well, I I wanted all I wanted all four P's before we went into something that was not even a P. But maybe it is. We don't know. Well, that's why I wanted him to finish his sentence, but uh no, people.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Okay, so the the the thing I think that you're downplaying a little bit, Matt, because uh when folks don't know how to identify talent, yeah, what you just said seems very difficult. But the way you said it seemed very simple. So how do how do you find those people and how do you know they are the right people? What are you looking for in terms of leaders? You know, you said, oh, well, we had this teacher and we knew she was going to be great for leadership. What tells you that?

SPEAKER_02 20:37

Um that people it's a gut to a certain extent. It's it's uh you know, being 30 years in the business, I kind of had an idea of what I was looking for. But that doesn't mean that always uh always hit a home run. I mean, I've I struck out a few times uh in that as well. Uh but I think it's a it's a comfort level with being uncomfortable. Uh it's it's uh understanding that uh by nature I'm I'm fairly risk tolerant. I like taking risk. I think the the bigger the risk, the the bigger the payday. And uh and so I'm there there's a there's a comfortability.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

I think we never work together because there'd be so much risk. We're talking about that, like, yeah, bigger the risk, the bigger the payday.

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Yeah, let's go do it. Yeah but but I think really it's just being prayerfully discerning and and and not getting uh desperate. And that's the thing. Uh and and this is where my again, my board chair was very, very good about it. Um he he believed in hoarding talent. Yes, and and that is really um had played a fundamental role in uh in our our growth and and the execution of that high school was if I saw somebody I wanted to get. Them, even if I didn't have a place for them at that moment, but I knew and I saw in them an ability to be a leader, an ability to do something down the down the road. Because I'm I'm very committed and very passionate about building up leaders within this movement. And so I was constantly, I'm constantly looking who has the potential to be ahead of school one day. And if they do, and I I see some of the those those characteristics, I want to go get them and get them into our school and let us benefit from their from their growth and their development as a leader, uh, and then send them out into the to to other schools. And so, you know, we we've had that opportunity uh to do that. And it's looking for people and not it's not, I think my I was doing a search, but Aaron didn't apply for the headmaster, but God brought her. Anthony really wasn't looking for anything other than just something to get him through the doctorate, yet God brought him to us. Uh, another one that I can point to very easily is John Wyckel. John is my uh uh was my director of operations there at uh at Heritage. He's a mechanical engineer, master's in mechanical engineering, uh, but also was going to um uh to school to seminary to get his his um a master's in theology. But he was the husband of another teacher. Wow. And it's like I heard about him. I I said, I want to meet you, come have coffee with me. And then I just laid it on him the same way I laid it on Aaron. I mean, you you can pray about this if you want to, but I know what God's gonna tell you. And uh and and and and sure enough, he came. And and he's gonna be ahead of school one day. There is no doubt in my mind that he will be ahead of school one day.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Two things I'm noticing. Number one, if you play the card that God has told me something, you you are shutting a lot of door uh exits uh for that that person that that has come by come back to bite a few in a good way. Uh but I I'm I'm thinking about a lot of the interviews that we do on search and having the same experience. Uh we actually just interviewed a guy who's applying for a headmaster role, and he's just been a software engineer and an artist his whole life. And he's given one of the most compelling visions of classical education of anyone I've ever heard of before. Uh and I'm I'm trying to figure out what the heck to do with this guy because he's an asset to somebody somewhere. Um But I I'm I'm curious to hear a little bit more. Are there phrases that are the little dog whistles for you that make your ears perk up that uh indicate to you that they're thinking through things in a way that uh shows a lot of potential?

SPEAKER_02 24:51

No, uh to be honest with you, no. Uh I think uh again, if they can uh if they're attached to what we're doing, that purpose, uh, and and really it resonates with them, and they're able to articulate it, whether it's the words that I would use or or somebody else, but if they can articulate in such a manner that you can sell that there's a uh a passion for it and a commitment for it, uh that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for passion. I'm looking for somebody that is is willing to give their life uh to what we're doing because that's what it's gonna take. And um, and so that's that's really it. Uh I'm there are no phrases or anything else like that. And it's really uh a lot for me, it's chemistry. Uh what's it like when I sit down and have a conversation? Is it an easy conversation? Is it is it is it difficult to to continue to have the conversation, uh, or is it just really flea for free-flowing and and and going in all kinds of different directions uh that it would not necessarily take in an inter in a typical interview? Uh and when I see that, and then I know there's something special. If you can see that chemistry and that passion, and obviously, I mean, let's let's make no mistake about it. The the baseline is they've got to have a dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ. Yeah, something that's they're growing into. They don't have to be perfect. I'm certainly not perfect, uh, but there's got to be a desire to know him and uh and and grow in that. And and if you get those those things right there, right? Man, we I can um I can teach you how to be a leader. Aaron can teach you how to be a teacher, uh, and she can even teach you to be a leader now. And and so those things I can teach. I can't teach passion, I can't teach a relationship with Christ, and I can't teach chemistry. Uh but man, we can we can figure the rest of it out from there.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah, it sounds like there's also a prerequisite of humility in there if you're implying that a lot of these positions need to be taught. Somehow you're also detecting in these conversations that they they are coachable.

SPEAKER_02 27:00

Yeah. That's a great, great point, Ryan. Uh yeah, I don't want somebody that's coming in that thinks they know everything. Um even though most of the people that I hire are much smarter than I am, uh there's a willingness to sit uh to sit back and and and follow, uh, which is not necessarily uh the case with a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Well, I think when you put purpose first, and now I'm gonna want to go back to purpose for a second, and you and you and you make purpose something really clear and compelling, you're already attracting a certain level of humility. Because now it's like, oh, I want to be part of something greater than myself. That's what gets me animated. So if you guys are all purpose-centered, then it's not really about me. Uh or if it's about me, it's about me in relation to something higher than me.

SPEAKER_00 27:51

It it the hardest searches for us to complete are when you have schools that are very lukewarm on the vision or are afraid to take a hard stance on anything. Uh and and they're just stuck in mediocrity. Uh there is no compelling thing to sell. So you can't find those mavericks and those risk takers and those smart people who are willing to figure things out in order to make the vision work.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

Which is interesting because uh uh a worry of risk, like staying in the safe mediocre place. Um people think like, oh yeah, but if we did this other thing, then we'll lose all our people. And it's actually the lack of being willing to take risk, do the compelling thing that's causing you to stay in the mediocre place. So but when he was talking about hoarding talent, I was like, I I think I can hear Ryan's heart just leaping out of his chest because we were doing some searches where uh where it was like, hey guys, you have the money saved up and there's three or four winners here. Yeah. Like you don't have to just pick one.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:59

Uh look for like try and why wouldn't you try and capture all three if you've got the money and you've got the positions? But so many people are just thinking, like, yeah, but I won't really have a position for that for a couple more years. And so how do you get over that that sort of thinking, Matt, and and just say, like, hey, if we have if we have stewarded our resources well, not cheaply, but but we've we've saved up and we could bring people in, why not do it?

SPEAKER_02 29:29

I I think most people are it's it's again, it's that scarcity mindset. It's the budget, it's the line item that uh and the board, a lot of boards are very, very didactic that they're this is it's it's either got to be red, I mean black, or we're not doing it. I mean and I had a board that was very, I don't know if comfortable was the right word, but they were uh willing to allow me to go into the red uh to do some things because the investment was going to have a return. Yes, and and that return is gonna take, and this is one of the things I learned when you talk about people, uh I sat down uh and had a meeting, um, and I don't want to drop names, uh, but it was Dan Cathy, and um this was years ago when I was at Lamar Christian School, and uh and I just asked him point blank because I was trying to figure this talent thing out, and I said, How long does it take uh to see the return on an investment in an individual, in that person? And he was so great. He said, It takes three years. You've got to be willing to wait three years to see it really uh that that talent begin to manifest itself in a return. And I have found that to be absolutely true. Now, some are a lot quicker, uh, but when you talk about really that flywheel that uh you know Jim Collins talks about, it's about a three-week, uh not three week, I wish it were three weeks. Yeah, uh three years uh on getting that. And that was such great advice, Marie, because I'm an impatient person. Uh if I hired you, I want to see results immediately. And so it really uh now you needed to see development and growth, obviously. Um but yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:11

I I mean I think that cuts the other way too, where if you're in an institution where uh you're you can't hold on to people for three years, you know, like and you have all this turnover, you're not willing to invest in them because you are too impatient, you know, then it's like how good is your institution going to be?

SPEAKER_02 31:33

Uh well, I mean, that there's a great example of this right now outside of education. And it's Sam Darnold, the quarterback for the Seattle Seattle fifth team he's been with. The fifth team. And finally, he has grown to the point where he is going to be able to deliver the things that he's been able to deliver the last two years. He's 14-2 or 14-3 last year with Minnesota and takes Seattle to the Super Bowl and wins it this year. But you've got to you've got such a culture in the NFL of we've got to see a quarterback and he's got to be great the first year or two. They're unwilling to stick with it. And I think that's true. I think we can turn that on us as well as leaders. That when we're recruiting and building teams, there's got to be a uh a patience there, a willingness uh to uh for them to make mistakes, knowing that those mistakes are the one of the best uh training grounds uh for them as a leader. It's that old story that you hear about the guy that made the mistake, cost the business a million dollars, and um he walks in and says, Why would I say I know you're gonna fire me? He goes, Why would I fire you? I just spent million a million dollars training you. Uh you know, it's it's that that are we willing to do that with people? Uh because people are not perfect, and I'm certainly not.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

And going with your uh Sam Darnold analogy there, there's also something to stunting the growth of your quarterback if you are nothing but a mediocre uh club. I mean you you severely curb what you can get out of somebody.

SPEAKER_01 33:06

Yeah. So I won't do this. I won't go out of the first two P's, but I'm gonna say something, and then we'll just go right back. Okay, so we won't go down this line. But you're talking about your board saying you're they were willing to have you go in the red. And at some point, if we have time, I want to talk about what that looks like in a positive way. Because I feel like when you're not willing to go into the red, you end up in the red, but you end up stuck in the red versus investing so that you can get into the black. So let's just put that aside. Um let's talk about purpose, because there are a lot of schools that think they are clear on purpose, but their purpose sounds like every other school's purpose. And you can't uh to me, it doesn't feel like you can um recruit people into something really exciting if it just sounds like the buzzwords that everyone else is using. How did you avoid that?

SPEAKER_02 34:04

Well, I I think part part of it is just I'm I'm really not smart enough to articulate classical education uh in the words like an Eric Twist or an Eric Cook can. Uh and I had to kind of just communicate them the way that I understood it. And uh and I think people attach to that. But there's something more uh to it. It's really understanding what is the North Star, what's the end result, what are we looking for. Uh, and and and and what really helped us was that portrait of a graduate. Uh, really developing and and and and building into that and really articulating that well uh really helped define it for people. Uh I've gone so far as to now, I talk about destination statements uh for for schools. You know, we have these visions that are way out there, they're pretty nebulous, and you know, every student prepared to impact the world for Jesus Christ or something like that. When in reality, what we need is a destination statement. Where are you going? What does it look like? What's the school look like in 10, 15 years? And when you can articulate something like that, like for heritage, it was we're going to be a school of 450 students, classical, within the uh in Midtown Atlanta, on two campuses, right there in Midtown, uh, and we're going to be pursuing the development of a portrait of a graduate, students who embody the portrait of a graduate. Uh, that really limits you uh on the decisions. When you have somebody that comes to you and says, hey, I've got some land outside the perimeter, it's a lot cheaper. You can build a lot cheaper out there, and there's a lot more students out there. You can grow as big as you want to grow. Well, we've already defined it that this is not who we are. So that that's that's a hard no for us. And that helps. It really helps to know kind of those guardrails and that because that destination statement really uh what it does is creates the guardrails for you. It helps you say no to good things so you can do the best things.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

So I've heard uh descriptions of a graduate that are just as vague as a mission statement, uh globally minded, kind, uh entrepreneurial, um forward thinking, whatever. Uh you uh you can fall into the same buzzword trap there. So what what did you articulate and how'd you do it in a way that was so specific and so concrete you knew what things to say no to?

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Yeah. Well, for us it was when we talked about the portrait of a graduate, the one thing that we talked about, we had the the six statements, and we said, you know, you've seen those. Uh when uh but let me tell you what you don't see in that. Uh and this was this was important for us. You don't see uh that they're gonna go to uh that this university, uh you don't see that they're gonna have this job, uh, you don't see that they're gonna have this test score at the end of their time at Heritage. Uh what you do see, and what we're more concerned with, and the way that we all talked about it, and and other schools do as well, is we're more concerned with who they become than what they will do. And and that really resonated with our parents, uh especially new parents coming in. It resonated with our donors who understood that we were trying to build something completely different. When you remove all of the those external characteristics of what we define as success in education, which is getting into you know uh Ivy League schools, having you know, 1,500 on your SAT or or you know, 36 on your ACT, whatever it is, whatever how you redefine that success, we wanted to blow that up and say, though those are byproducts for us. We think that if we pursue this, we're gonna get this.

SPEAKER_01 37:43

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 37:44

But you know, at the time when we were when we were casting the vision for this, we didn't have the proof of it. Uh so we were asking people to come along and trust us on this, which was a little bit more difficult. Now that we've had uh a graduating class and it's proven out uh that this this is a byproduct of what we do, it's not the purpose of what we do. It's a byproduct. Yep. Uh now you've got some traction.

SPEAKER_01 38:09

Were um those six statements, are there any of them that are worth highlighting to kind of give people an idea of what Yeah, I I knew you were going to uh It's been seven months since I've had to look at them.

SPEAKER_02 38:24

No, I wouldn't say that there's anything in particular that you would say, oh, you would never find that in another school.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

Yeah, but it's so funny because we talk with all these people who have been transformed by classical ed, and they don't say like, well, and then I read The Republic and I realized there's this hierarchy of goods. But you guys, everyone talks that way. I mean, see we were in we were talking with John Mueller in one of our other um podcast sessions, and he said, Yeah, C.S. Lewis makes it clear that if you aim for the second things, you won't hit the first things. But if you aim for the first things, you'll hit the first things and the second things, you know, which is exactly what you're talking about. And I feel like that clear sort of thinking that's in classical ed that helps people to separate out what are byproducts versus what are the true engines, like what's real versus what's secondary, um, is huge for success for schools.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Yeah, it's it's interesting because that we use that exact same quote in our interviews with prospective families. Nice. The C. S. Lewis quote. This is all about, and then I I go back to, I mean, literally go back to what I started my career with in Christian education, which is uh Matthew 6 33. Seek first the kingdom and his righteousness. All these other things will be added to you, which is and C. S. Lewis is saying the same thing in a different way. Uh and then when when we say this is a byproduct, it's the same thing in a different way. And and I think that resonates with people.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

That's great. All right, should we go to third P people? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Let's do it. It's kind of anticlimactic, by the way. Is it straight? Yeah, I mean, you get that you get that purpose down and you and you and you're you you've got a chance to get the right people in, it's great because then the people are going to build the right programs. Oh, there you go. And that's that's all it is. It's just, but you've got to get it in order. You can't build a program and then um, you know, uh take people and shoehorn them in to certain things. And that's one of the things we're we're I think we're pretty adept at is allowing people to grow into and and grow into something more than what we even saw uh when we were were envisioning uh the the high school. And so you get people involved and and then they begin to develop these things. And so that's really uh one of the key things about us is we're we're not unwilling to take a risk in doing something. I'm not unwilling to start a program and say two years, well, it didn't work. I mean, I I think that that's okay. Uh, but it's led us to do some pretty remarkable things. We have this thing called foundations at heritage, uh, which one of our uh parents, who just happened to be an MBA grad, Harvard MBA grad, and we brought her in to develop this. And she has done a phenomenal, she was doing some of it on the side, but she has created this incredible entrepreneurial business development program that starts in sixth grade, goes all the way through twelfth grade, that is unique in lots of different ways, and is so incredibly uh uh beneficial to our students. But that's uh again, it's saying, you know, Monica, we want you to to come in. We're gonna pay you to develop this. And uh, even though, you know, financially it didn't make sense at that particular time, but it's grown into something that's uh become a distinctive force and and really kind of separates us from the pack. So it's it's that it's purpose, people, make sure you get those right, and then let them let them dream a little bit with the programs. Now, did we have a structure in place? Absolutely. We we kind of knew, but again, programs are are uh subsequent to to the people.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yeah, how do you balance that? Because I see a lot of school like the tradition, well, their traditional private school model is uh I'll hire really good people and then just let them do whatever they want. Uh, but then for the kids, especially in a classical setting, it's like hard for them to build real habits when six different teachers have six different agendas. So how do you kind of get that right?

SPEAKER_02 42:41

Well, again, it goes back to purpose.

SPEAKER_01 42:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:44

Is everybody aligned on this purpose? Because we've had some really, really good teachers uh that I think could have been phenomenal teachers, but we found out you know, six months in, nine months in that they were not aligned in what what we were doing, and we had to make uh a change. Um, and and and that's the other thing is you gotta be really, really comfortable. And I I say this a lot with new heads, and I don't mean this to be crass, but as a head of school, you gotta be really comfortable with ruining ruining people's lives uh by getting rid of the mediocre uh teachers and and staff and team members and being ruthless about pursuing A team, A uh members that uh are are are they're gonna elevate everybody else. Uh but the moment you begin to tolerate the C player, um because we know C players are never gonna become an A player. Uh you can take a B to an A, but you're not gonna take a C to an A. So what do you have to do with those C? You have to identify them and and respectfully and graciously and and with kindness move them out. But you've got to be ruthless in doing that.

SPEAKER_01 43:56

Yeah, and I I know you're overemphasizing for the sake of Nice people being willing to do difficult things. Um, you know, and so saying being willing to ruin their lives because that's how it feels to really nice people. But in the end, no one wants to be mediocre, you know? And so if they're mediocre at your institution and you say, hey, look, it's time to go, that doesn't mean they're going to go be mediocre somewhere else. In fact, God probably has something better for them. Um, and I, you know, this this show's not about me, but there were several times in my life where being held, I mean like for all of us, like being held accountable to being average and then getting another chance somewhere else actually helps you be a lot better.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 44:40

Like you're doing them a favor by saying, uh it's not gonna be here, it's gotta be somewhere else, you know?

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Well, I've had a lot of a lot of people come back to me. Uh I say a lot. I I want to think it's a lot, but come back and say thank you uh for for doing that. Uh I've had a lot that haven't said anything to me and still don't talk to me, but uh uh you know, you gotta be comfortable with that as a leader. But anyway, so that that's that you know, that purpose and the people of the programs, and and and getting that alignment. If you get that alignment first, again, you just the way that we talk about it at Herzog is you've got to know who you are, and then you have to act like it. A lot of schools want to believe who they are. Their actions tell you something completely different. Or they truly believe intellectually this, but then they do something different. And it's a great example, is that what we were just talking about is elevating, you know, this is a sweet Christian lady. I can't fire her. She loves Jesus, she loves the kids, which is great. That is fantastic, but you're not hiring sweet Christian teachers who love Jesus. You're you're hiring teachers who are able to deliver the product that you promised uh to the people and who are paying a lot of money for. And so you're in order to protect with what I would call cheap grace to protect that one individual, you're exposing 15, 18 kids to inferior mediocre teaching, which is does nobody any good.

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah, and if you said um, do you think we should put more effort into uh a sports team having top-tier talent or an educational team having top-tier talent? Right? Education, absolutely. Right. But you look at the sports teams and that that's the key. I mean, they are trying to get top talent all the time. And like you said, you need to invest in people, you need to give them the time and not just knee-jerk fire everybody. That's not um you know showing potential.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

You would give three years to allow someone to show their true potential, but you also noticed something within six months. So these sweet little uh Christian teachers who love Jesus so much, what what were they missing from their their vision or purpose? Was it just bland?

SPEAKER_02 47:10

Uh I I think there was uh there was an in in there was a mismatch in what they wanted to do and what they could do. There was a desire there. Uh and and I I I think that's uh credible. Uh but there they just did not have the necessary skill set to make it happen, the talent. Uh and I will say this uh when I say three years, what I'm talking about is somebody who's aligned, who's moving in the same direction, sees the same things, but is just not performing yet, but you see the capability.

SPEAKER_01 47:48

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:48

There's some that you you see that in the first week. And and I'll I'll tell you a story. Uh we let a teacher go and teach her uh pre-planning before the school started, because it was very evident on day three of pre-planning that she was not a fit. She was not going to be what we wanted. So instead of uh exposing our kids to that, let's get rid of her, figure out, and we'll we'll piece together a plan. But that again, that's where you have good people sitting on the bench. You know, that's building that bench strength uh and and hoarding talent. Now you're able to kind of piece together some things to make that work.

SPEAKER_01 48:27

Yeah, I love that you say that because um so many schools are have no bench. They hire everybody. Uh there's there's no understudies for any positions.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

And then if a teacher drops because they have to take leave or they get sick or they just say, I don't want to be here anymore, you're scrambling. Um and I get that there's financial um considerations there for schools, but you should always be training people up uh ready to take a position, whether it's a sub or a TA or something like that.

SPEAKER_02 49:00

So well, and that's that it goes back to the value uh equation. If you want to really uh have an impact on your bottom line, it's create value. And the only way you're gonna create value is to have great teachers, period.

SPEAKER_01 49:15

Okay, so we got people, no, no, no, purpose people, programs.

SPEAKER_02 49:21

All right. And then the the last one is is even more anticlimactic. Uh it's just place. Uh it's the place where you're gonna it's the philosophy.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

So uh you know what's climactic though is when you can't land the plane and it crashes. So I feel like that's exciting in a very different way. Yeah, exactly. So I feel like the anticlimax you're getting at here is like, and this is how you land the plane. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:48

Well, I mean, you you've you've seen this, all of you have seen this. Uh, is most schools start, let's build a building, let's design a building, and then uh we'll we'll fill it. Sure. And and that's just not the way that you do it. Uh you got again, you gotta have your purpose aligned, you gotta have your right people, the right programs. And now let's design a place that contains and facilitates. And and in classical education, one of the things that we talk a lot about that also has beauty, that that resonates beauty. Uh, you know, I think it was Churchill said, uh, we design our buildings or shape our buildings, and then our buildings shape us. That's a design principle that we took to heart at heritage. Uh, we're you know, we're building a new building right now that's gonna be absolutely beautiful. Uh, it's gonna cost more uh to make it beautiful. Uh, but again, is it scarcity or abundance? Is it is it we're gonna do it on the cheapest way that we can? Because we could do it a lot cheaper. We could put up school buildings that look like prisons, like every other school has done across the country, or we can do something that's gonna be beautiful uh and and and that that reflects what we're actually trying to do uh in in truth, good, goodness, and beauty and the classical movement.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

So, how did you make beauty and the start of a school work together? Because it's I'm in my imagination, I I can really only think of schools that have started and built a building and then they they filled the thing. Um it's it's harder to build beauty as it grows. So, what were some of the intentional steps you took?

SPEAKER_02 51:30

Uh hiring the right architects was was huge. And and having a board chair that uh appreciates excellence and having a desire in a community that appreciates it as well. And and and the other thing is just being willing to um to pray. I mean, we we were given a building that I kid you not, um across the streets, a church, an old church, when you walk into it, the first thing I thought was Oxford, uh, you know, that that that look. And and I knew at that moment that this is what this is what we needed to do and to pursue. And and we were fortunate enough to be able to purchase that. Um, but I'm not saying you have to have that type of building to create beauty. You can have a beautiful school in an old uh old public school, but the beauty resonates from how are you taking care of it? Are you maintaining it? Is there a bunch of ceiling tiles falling in, light bulbs out, you know, paint chipping off the walls, all of these things. Those are the things that drive me nuts.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 52:41

Uh, and those are the things that I think we we tend to think to have beauty in our buildings that we need to build these in ornate huge monstrosities, and that's not necessarily true. It needs to be beautiful, whatever God has given you needs to be beautiful, and and you make that beautiful by t taking care of it and stewarding it and and maintaining it. And and yeah, again, I'm gonna get off on a on a tangent and uh in a rabbit.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

No, I think that's right. I think kids are really sensitive to it also. Teachers too. Oh, yeah. You want to retain the good ones. Yeah, yeah. I mean, at one of our schools, we had the art teacher who, you know, we were really blessed that he was a pepperdine grad and had thought deeply about art and aesthetics and had worked in a museum at some point. But we said, will you go around our whole school and say where the art needs to be, even in teachers' classrooms, help them design their own classrooms so that they all have a certain minimum standard. And it made a huge difference.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

Huge. Um, you know, we we had the same thing. I mean, we have a we have a standard, uh, our our classrooms have a standard. Uh it's not going to be full of junk. Junk.

SPEAKER_03 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

It's going to have beauty in it. And just doing little things like that uh can can really. And I'll tell you one of the things that I I got this from uh my brother-in-law who works at Chick-fil-A. He goes, if you want to figure out what type of a restaurant you're going into, uh, go into the bathroom. Hmm. Yep. You know, you look at the condition of the bathroom. I take in that to heart and said, you go into the go into the bathroom of school, and it'll tell you a lot about what they think about maintaining that school.

SPEAKER_01 54:26

Oh yeah. We're both former genes, PTSD space. We're both former genes in middle school. So exactly. It is true. Uh yeah, that's where the fight is. It's in the bathrooms. Metaphorically and literally.

SPEAKER_00 54:46

Yeah. And and also the whatever the teacher version is of the bathrooms and the classroom, that that analogy is not going to make sense. But there you you can see teacher spaces that are totally compromising uh on the beauty standard. Uh I I think it's telling about the level of excellence that they're providing as well.

SPEAKER_01 55:10

Yeah. I agree. So purpose, people, programs, place.

SPEAKER_02 55:17

Now, I will say this because that orb, if you look at it as a circle, all sits on a pedestal.

unknown 55:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 55:25

And that pedestal is the strategic financial plan. So that's that has to support it. No money, no mission.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

And Matt, did you find a neighborhood or did you find a building? R remind me, you you found an area and then you had the architects to design the building.

SPEAKER_02 55:42

Well, we the the new building that we're building right now is built to match the uh this hundred and uh a little over a hundred-year-old um old church building that we have. So that it looks when we finish, it'll look like it was there from the beginning. That's that's what I'm talking about as well, is a consistency in theme and and architectural.

SPEAKER_00 56:06

Yeah, I'm just wondering about places as far as the the community and the sorts of people that you are building that school with. Uh does that does that factor in to your placement?

SPEAKER_02 56:21

I I do, but I think it's it's uh you know it's subsidiary to the to the purpose. I mean, because you attract these type of people uh because of the purpose, uh then they are going to align with you in what you're trying to do in your place, uh, at least for the most part. I I just I mean I know I'm I'm I I keep beating it, but it's it's all about purpose. If if you don't get that right, everything else is wrong. But if you get that one thing right in a really, really, really uh dogmatic around finding people who believe that, not their idea of it, but believe that and the expression of it at your school, uh, then you can begin to do some amazing things.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

Yeah. That's great. Okay, so the strategic financial plan, I just I just want to hit that really quickly. Um, you know, if you're a board that's starting up or you're a school and you realize like, uh, I don't know what Matt's saying, or I maybe I know what Matt's saying, and I know we don't have it. How do you what's kind of the bare bones elements of a strong one?

SPEAKER_02 57:30

Uh well, I what I would say is that you've got to have really, really strong projections. Uh one, you let me back up. You've got to have a really, really acute understanding of where you are today. Brutally honest where you are today, which means you've got to have good numbers, you've got to have good information. And then it's beginning to build the projections out three to five years, I'd say minimally five years. I did 10-year projections uh on that I kept to myself. Uh, and and so you have those, uh, and then you've got a cash flow uh statement or cash flow projection as well. Uh, because uh schools, and especially today with some of the funding from states and different things, you've got to know your cash flow cycles. How can I, how can I uh survive? And so that's a because cash is keen. Uh, and so you've got to know that. Uh, but you have to have you have to have a destination. You got to know where you're going. If you can't, if you don't, you got the way I talk about is you define the destination in order to determine the path, uh, in order to deliver the promise. And if we want to deliver the promise, we know the path that we're gonna take because that's our destination that we set. Uh, we're not just throwing up a sail and letting the wind and waves take us wherever it goes. Uh we're actually going to work to tack into the wind, batten the hatches, and arrive at a destination versus ending up somewhere.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Can you say those statements again? It's uh about the destination, the path, and the promise?

SPEAKER_02 58:59

Uh define the destination.

SPEAKER_01 59:01

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 59:02

Determine the path, deliver the promise.

SPEAKER_01 59:05

Oh, that's nice. I like that. Something southern about just good articulation of those things, you know. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Thank you for uh for sharing that, Matt. I I think I think there's so much there that um school leaders, school boards can uh can be thinking about uh as they're trying to build their schools out.

SPEAKER_00 59:31

So Ryan, what do you think? I think that's a great place to land the plan. Yep, we found our place to land. Uh thank you for tuning in one more time to the Furrows podcast. We'll catch you again.

SPEAKER_01 59:46

Thank you.