Philosophy as Preparation for Death w/ Jonathan Mueller (Part 2) | The Furrows

In Part 2 of their conversation with Jonathan Mueller, Ryan and Alex pick up where they left off—tracing the circuitous path from Torrey Honors College through Boethius, Plato, and the Phaedo that eventually led Jonathan into classical education. 

What's in This Episode:

• How Jonathan went from Biola/Torrey to dancing Greek waiter before finding his way into classical education through the Academy at HCU with John Mark Reynolds
• The encounter with Boethius and Plato at age 19 that harmonized philosophy and theology and set the course for everything since
• What Socrates means in the Phaedo when he says philosophy is the preparation for death — and why it's a deeply hopeful claim, not a morbid one
• Why "we don't teach them what to think, we teach them how to think" is a phrase that hasn't aged well, and what students actually need to believe first
• Misology, intellectual ferocity, and the moment Jonathan ripped up his eighth graders' homework mid-discussion of The Man Who Was Thursday

Chapters:

• 00:00: Introduction
• 15:22: Philosophy as Preparation for Death
• 30:52: Lao Tzu, Plato, and the Return to Christianity
• 34:18: Teaching What to Think vs. How to Think
• 38:08: Intellectual Ferocity and Misology
• 51:43: Marriage and the C.S. Lewis Principle
• 59:56: Great Books for Eighth Graders
• 01:06:18: The Man Who Was Thursday in the Classroom

Resources Mentioned:

• Aristoi Classical Academy
• The Consolation of Philosophy by Boethius
• The Man Who Was Thursday by G.K. Chesterton
• Arcadia Education
• Classical Learning Test

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education.

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to the Furos Podcast, a podcast where we have conversations with people who have been transformed by classical education. My name is Ryan Klopak. I'm the director of Executive Search at Arcadia Education. And I'm joined by my co-host, Alex Julian, the director of the classical backlaureate program with CLT. Nice. We did it, ladies and gentlemen. I said it couldn't be done, but we did the intro.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

At some point, the end of the intro, we will no longer be congratulating ourselves at getting through the intro.

SPEAKER_00 0:42

No, but it's these uh little milestones have to be recognized along the way. So today we have Jonathan Muller on for part two, because part one was so dang good. Agreed. And we keep saying the thing over and over and over, we need to have part two. Yes. Uh so we're actually going to do that. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

And uh and so you know, if if when this airs, there's some way to contact us, let us know if you want this to become some sort of long-form podcast because we keep wanting part two. Uh, but maybe leaving you with more and having a part two is the way to go. So we'll see what we'll see what you guys see what happens. Um so, John, welcome back. Thanks for being with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Thanks, guys. Good to be here again.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Yep. So uh we're not gonna give an introduction because if you don't know who John is, you didn't listen to part one, and then that means you need to go back and do that. Um, but where we left off was John was in, was it Czech Republic? Yes. Yes, good, yeah. If you're listening to these back to back, you're like, man, he should remember. It's like two seconds later, but it's been weeks for us. Uh yeah. So John was in Czech Republic, surrounded by a lot of atheism, is an interesting uh place to be uh a kind of a Christian who is going back and forth about his faith and asking questions. And then you had just gotten into Tory Honors College. And so we just want to pick that thread back up of kind of your faith journey and how it's connected to you returning to the US and and maybe even some of your time in Europe. But coming back to Tory, let's let's start there.

SPEAKER_01 2:17

Absolutely. So I would add, you know, there I am in primarily Prague, though I was I was living in a little suburb of Prague called Spratlav, um, which is a cool little place uh along the kind of outer tributaries of the Voltava River. Um very beautiful, little kind of rural place uh for a for a suburb. And um I think it's important to point out that I'm there with, yes, many people who are are atheists, um, who are coming to the church in English teaching group um where I'm currently helping the missionary family that I was living with. Um so it's the case that I'm there with people who are kind of self-professed atheists, but also finding them to be really good people, um, you know, who are very kind uh in their reception of me uh as you know, a foreigner, um, and someone who doesn't speak their language. Um, and also very it just I feel like this kind of paradox gets to the heart of what I found so impactful there. So good, decent people, very kind and receptive, um who were very knowledgeable about the history of their country and a rich, rich history of Christendom in the Czech Republic, still in many ways. So you know, I was there in oh well, uh 2007, um, 2007, 2008. And uh that meant that when I spoke with people who were you know in their 40s, 50s, 60s, I was talking to people who had either been children or young adults when Prague was still behind the iron curtain. Um that was just very interesting as well, because you know, that of course had a lot to do with kind of the spiritual shift in the country. But for hundreds and hundreds of years, uh, you know, Prague, uh, you know, the Czech Republic, Bohemia, Slovakia has just such an amazingly rich history uh in Christianity, uh, you know, kind of this this intersection, not just of Eastern and Western Christianity, but also then just a really important ground for um Reformation and Roman Catholicism history. And so um, yeah, it just was was really fascinating to be there with that backdrop, with people who were frequently atheists, um who were also very knowledgeable about this history, but didn't themselves embrace the spiritual tradition and reality that that could be found there. Um, and I just found this immensely uh interesting and puzzling, you know, um, because I as an American, you know, and I I still considered myself a Christian, though I definitely registered the fact that I was struggling to provide a whole account that I could articulate um of not just you know Christian history and you know kind of uh the tradition and denominational conflict, uh, right, which is you know part of the history of the Czech Republic, um, but also uh at a philosophical level, I I I was really dissatisfied with myself of you know when it when it came to um speaking about uh things like philosophy of science um and and so forth. And and I, you know, as you do when you're a teenager, I simultaneously felt dissatisfied with myself, but then also assumed that that meant that no one had a good answer, right? Um I kind of somehow was trying to have it. Like, okay, I can't answer this question. That means everyone who says they can answer this question is dumb. Uh probably wrong. And you know, it's just uh one of the horrible conditions of being, you know, at at that age where you feel I think it's necessary to go through something like that, honestly. And and oh yeah, if we do if we do get to uh my work in in classical education, I think it's really um prompted by by looking back at myself at that point and realizing that it in in many ways it's a terrible condition. It kind of resembles, you know, um St. Augustine in the garden, uh feeling exiled from himself, right? Yeah. Um and and and sort of just being distraught and weeping because of that. Uh so I I think back on that, I mean, I'm not to say that I have everything figured out now uh by any means, but um, but I think back on that condition, the that just like the immense tension that I felt, um not thinking, oh, that's bad, I should help people avoid that condition entirely, but rather thinking, wow, it turns out I I think that condition is kind of necessary. Um, but that how you get treated as a thinker, as a person, as a learner during that period really matters. Um it really, I think, can change the trajectory of your intellectual life um and your spiritual life significantly, if during that kind of fragile period, um if it whether you get treated charitably, but also prompted to keep digging and keep engaging and and coming up with better explanations, better answers, better accounts, um or if you get approached by someone who's more disenchanted, more cynical, um, and they kind of like capitalize on on your uh on on kind of the the turmoil that that you're feeling at that point.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

That's so interesting that you say that because I mean that's that's the stage that most people are going into college with, right? College freshmen. Yeah. And it's like which which of those two do you think they're mostly experiencing in college? They're not experiencing the uh the like keep searching, there's truth out there. There's you know, uh yes, things seemed simpler because you were simpler. Yeah. And now there's a much deeper way of understanding that, and that's part of just growing up. It's like, no, uh, you go off to college, and most people are like, they lied to you. You know, they think they kept things from you. It's not that you were young uh and that it would have been inappropriate for them to tell you this. So that that's just that's an interesting point that like we have to remember how prone our kids are to being in that space. Um what about Well, and one more thing about that.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

I was thinking about uh some of the students we've had in the past who I've watched teachers get fed up with those kinds of boys very quickly who found Nietzsche, and that's just all that they can parrot. Yep. Uh and they're just awash with cynicism. Um But what what an opportunity to fill that void with charity and actual intellectual inquiry and challenge um rather than just being, I don't know, written off or uh responded to with dogmatism and and annoyance. Uh I I've seen both dynamics and I've seen that that latter response just drive students further and further into their cynicism and nihilism. So it's just it's really interesting that you bring up the point uh about the the treatment you received has such a profound effect on you. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Yeah. No, I I think I think it's so important, and that actually leads me to kind of you know one of one of the things that I experienced, although funny enough, I I read it when I was in the Czech Republic. It has nothing to do with the Czech Republic in some ways, but a friend had actually sent um the consolation of philosophy with me uh on on my trip. And um, you know, thank God for that friend. But um it was it was something that came to me right right at that moment. And you know, I uh read it over the period of a couple of weeks, um, you know, sort of amidst the setting that I described a couple minutes ago. And I just felt like Lady Philosophy was speaking to me, you know, like when when she comes to Boethius in that first scene, um and and you know, says that the first thing she needs to do is is wipe the tears from his eyes, you know, she banishes the muses, um the the whorish stage girls, right? And uh but but she doesn't banish poetry. Um, you know, she she banishes a certain kind of uh poetry that has to do with self-pity. Um now she also simultaneously meets her student where he is, um, she comforts him, confirms that you know she was never going to abandon him. You know, it's one of the first things he says to her, you know, have have you come to be with me or are you going to leave too? Um and she says, Why would I abandon you, my child? Um, you know, you you studied with me, and when have I ever abandoned one of my true students? Um which I just found incredibly moving, uh, even as the 18, 19 year old, and and still do to this day. Um, but that idea that, you know, and then when I thought, okay, well, here I am having this like simultaneously amazing time of my life, but also kind of spiritually, intellectually, a very difficult time. Um of course I wasn't having the same kind of hard time as Boethius was. Uh, but I and so I I recognized that. I thought, okay, in this, you know, it I was thinking about Tory and going back to college in the US, um, if I could do a great books program. Um, and so reading Boethius there in the Czech Republic kind of confirmed that for me. And I thought, okay, if reading and discussing and thinking about books like this helps you be ready to meet death the way Boethius does, um, as in, you know, we don't know exactly what the moment of his death looked like, but what I mean is waiting there in prison or under house arrest, whatever it was, um, knowing that you're going to die. Writing a book like that, a book that actually also helped you, but if, you know, hoping against hope, if it got into other people's hands, could help them as well. Um, and I just thought that's incredible. You know, that's that's that's the kind of trajectory I want to set my heart and my mind and my soul on, is to become the kind of person who could do that. Uh and I don't want to speak as if I think I've arrived at that, but that is that is a worthy pull, uh, in my opinion. And I thought so then and and still think so.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

Were you thinking about death at that age, or was it just something that was coming to mind as you were reading these books? That's just not something I think of a lot of teenagers thinking about.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

You know, I I don't know uh if I feel like teenagers do think about that um quite quite a bit. Uh maybe not how to how to put it. I think teenagers think about mortality and meaning more than they articulate that they actually do. And I think that's why uh you know we were talking about that period of time, late high school, early college, being that that time of of intellectual, spiritual, personal turmoil. Um, I think those are those are the anxieties and the issues frequently under the surface. Again, not always, you know, saying, I was thinking about death today. And right.

SPEAKER_03 15:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Well, and and in part, because honestly, I don't think Christian communities are always very good at inviting that kind of discussion. Um you know, we tend to we tend to flee death in our conversation just as much as in our in our lives, you know. And and this this gets sort of towards one of those, you know, things that I started to to see in the classical tradition more clearly when I was in uh late high school, early college, um, that I that I still find tremendously important, you know, in in the apology, Socrates says uh that it's easier to flee death than wickedness. Um and we all know that none of us escapes death. So how much more do we not escape wickedness in our in our daily lives? You know, and I was just really, really captivated by by that, along with you know, something that I'm still working on writing about to this day. Frankly, I'm working on my PhD in Platonic philosophy and working on the Phaedo in particular. And in the Phaedo, Socrates says uh that philosophy is the preparation for death. Um and so to me, you know, I I read the Phaedo close enough to my encounter with Constellation of Philosophy that those those texts and the the key ideas there really harmonized for me. And it was when I was now 19, you know, just thinking, okay, here's Socrates and here's Boethius. Um, and Socrates is saying that philosophy is the preparation for death. Now, what does he mean by that is a really interesting question because I think maybe to what we were talking about a moment ago, there's a certain kind of even Christian who hears that and and thinks, oh, how morbid. Like, why are you focusing on that? No, we should be we should be like filling the young people with hope. And it's funny because actually Socrates is being tremendously hopeful when he says that because he makes that statement amidst the broader arguments for the immortality of the soul. But beyond that, like beyond the arguments for the immortality of the soul, he's making the argument that you should live in such a way that you can die well and be fit for the next life, whatever that exactly turns out to be, because Socrates admits, like very clearly admits, that he can't have perfect knowledge about that. Um, you know, he at one point compares himself, or at least he compares the philosopher, he gives this amazing little image of you know, it says it would be like if if you were a fish kind of flitting up towards the surface of the water, and for a brief moment you you crested above the surface and glimpsed the sun, but then immediately dipped back down into the murky waters, right? Um that's that's kind of the best we can do is if we with you know between our reason and our poetic effort to put forward a picture of what it would be like, but we can't say for sure what it is. You know, Socrates says that's a task fit only for a god. Um and Socrates can't do that, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:24

So did you did you feel like for you at that time it was reading authors who were willing to talk about difficult topics that Christians often gloss over that like pulled you back in or made it more real for you or helped to integrate you in some way?

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yes, yeah, I think I think that was a big part of it. Um to really grapple with because that's that's the thing about Boethius, is it's not assumed at the outset of the text that this is all okay, right? Um and to the opposite, you know, Boethius is there kind of saying, wait, I I followed you, right? I I did you know my best to pursue wisdom, to pursue justice, to pursue virtue in in every aspect of of public and private life. How is this happening to me? Like what what how how do we account for this? How can it still be worthwhile to follow you, Lady Wisdom? Um, and I you know, I I felt I felt that uh in my in my own life as well, you know, and I think again, that's the kind of thing that certain kinds of Christian parents and educators, and I should be careful about what I say because I'm a parent, but of young children, you know, I haven't I haven't fathered people through some of these uh teenage and and young 20s issues yet. So um I should uh need to make sure to be humble about that. Um but we frequently shy away from, you know, we say, like, well, no, it it it all like and then we might, you know, we might even say something perfectly true, but comes off as a platitude, like all things work together for those who love God, who you know, uh and and it's true, it's really true. But to uh 18-year-old, 19-year-old in the moment, it might just sound really hollow. And so noticing the model that Lady Philosophy provides, which you know, first abolishing the the harmful influence of the muses, right? Um, she does that, she's pretty tough within that. She says, now is the time for remedies, uh, not for whatever you were just doing.

SPEAKER_02 20:53

Um so she's that's oh go ahead. No, I just that's I think it's so interesting and important because um yeah, I mean my my kids are are younger as well, but there's there's just this desire to make sense of reality as it is, like not as you hope it will be, but as it is now. And I and and I think in 21st century America, we're so concerned with comfort and and with like Christianity being at the service of comfort, or our uh like a recognition that we're in God's favor because He's made us comfortable, that we that we have just like swept under the rug all these aspects of Christian doctrine that are really important, uh like suffering, like the fear of death, which is real, like the pain of the separation that happens with death. I mean, you know, most funerals are just. Celebrations of life now. It's like not, you know, there's unless you go to kind of traditional funerals that have not changed for a very long time, you instead, even at even when you're like faced with uh a rite that deals with death, you don't even talk about death. You just talk about the life as though what we're doing right now is the greatest thing that we could fulfill, and therefore we have to make Earth this really pleasurable experience. Um yeah, and it just seems like maybe we're we're forgetting that though Christ saves us, he didn't fundamentally change the fallen world. Like, yes, he fundamentally changed the fallen world we live in in one way, but in another way he did not. Like all sin could have been, all future sin could be removed. We could be living in the garden again, and we're not. Uh and I I think sometimes we forget how to deal with that.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

We try to preach a Christ without a cross. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. That's right. And I was also thinking about um, you know, I made the comment, I don't think teenagers are thinking about death all that often, but I think I think you're right. I think they do. But when they do the stupidest things that they will ever do in their life, it's when they're in that mode where they think they are completely immortal. Uh and death is the farthest thing from their mind. Sure. And what has the thing that brings them back to reality is that brush or is that encounter with death. Um like you can't live in that suspended animation for too long before uh death pushes its way back in. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:51

Yeah. So so I yeah, how did how does that kind of square with your experience then, John? Was it some of that just this like, yeah, I don't I don't want to lead you. But yeah, how does that yeah?

SPEAKER_01 24:04

No, I I think that what I because when I think about what we're talking about, you know, I think about my dad uh being uh a Presbyterian pastor, and he that man will preach a proper funeral. Like you talk about you know, death is the enemy, and and he will he will then present the gospel. Um and so it wasn't that there was no no model for that in my life. Again, I think in a in a teenager-ish way, I had driven a wedge between philosophy and theology. Um and so even though I knew like I I could hear what the answers I had been raised with would be, I had this sense incorrectly, but persuasively at the time, that they weren't sufficient outside of church somehow. Yeah. And I think I think, you know, we talked about like the parts of the this stage that might be necessary, and so it really matters who's with the the student at that point. Um I th I think that is necessary, or not not always, but it's often the case that people go through some kind of phase like that, where they have driven a wedge intellectually, or someone has helped them drive that wedge unhelpfully, um between things that actually cohere, uh, but and and so might become persuaded like I was that you know the the answers in the Bible or the answers in the church were not sufficient for the world of philosophy and science. Um and so I think what what I began to identify at that point was my sense of which questions needed to be answered and and and maybe brought into consideration with with how I had been raised in the Christian tradition. But I felt like I had to at least like really mean to leave if I found that the answers were not good enough. And if you if you occupy, you know, if you commit I'm gonna find the truth no no matter how uncomfortable. Umy people tell themselves that while also sort of not actually engaging in open inquiry. Like they they they tell themselves that while also sort of just tending towards whatever vices they they prefer at the moment, right? Um and I'm sure I was guilty of that. I I didn't I didn't want to do that. I I really did want to find, you know, if if there was if something was true that I hadn't believed yet, or if things that I had believed turned out to be false, I wanted to know. And that was where, you know, I would say the the good that that could be done in a great books honors college like Tory uh was was really beneficial to me because I was I was in a safe, much safer setting than I realized, but I was also with you know plenty of peers who either were experiencing a similar struggle or indeed turned out within a few years to not be Christians. Um and and we worked really hard, you know. But but I would say the a great thing about Jori when I was there is that um, especially for those of us who kind of became especially attached to to Plato, and we had these um awesome marathons, uh we would call them. So uh the director of the program, Dr. John Mark Reynolds, um, would bring in his uh his uh supervisor from his his University of Rochester days, uh Dr. Al Geyer. And Al is just uh the closest to Socrates I've ever met in person. Um he passed away uh several years ago, but um you know, so I first met him in in my early 20s, but even even many years uh after that, he would he would travel to wherever we were and uh like once a year, usually. And even if that point he was kind of wheeling along an oxygen tank behind him, and he would sit down and discuss a platonic dialogue with us for three days straight. Um, and those were our marathons. And so there was you know a a group of my friends, um, but then also uh my wife Megan, who's not my wife at the time, but uh when we were, you know, we met a college that we grew up 10 minutes away from each other. It's very, very strange how these things work. Um well we met at college and um started dating about a year later, and you know, we would go to these marathons together and and then just go and keep talking, you know, three days, three days straight of talking with uh you know 75-year-old man about the republic. Uh that was our idea of a good time in college. Nice.

SPEAKER_02 29:20

That's great. So yeah, I I mean I think you're alluding to it, but what is it about once you were at Tory, you're back in the US, that um kind of continued your journey or path towards the faith and towards kind of renewed sense of purpose. Was it Plato? Because if so, then I'm gonna trap you and say, you just said that uh that anything outside the church wasn't necessary. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Wait, did you know about anything outside the church wasn't necessary? Probably.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Or he thought that at the time. Probably not.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Um what I heard was this interesting thing we should tease out more, which I think is often a feeling of Christians, uh especially that, hey, look, everything you need is in the Bible, and and I I think that's true, but then how can how can other great works supplement that? Yeah, uh, so that like to remove the wedge, like you were talking about. So yeah, we don't have to talk about removing the wedge right now unless that's relevant to the question I asked.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

I think that's good for the question you asked because yeah, if if I seemed to give the indication that uh nothing outside scripture would be necessary, uh, then I misspoke. I I think I was trying to say I was trying to allow for the possibility that someone maybe more virtuous and pious than myself uh wouldn't need Plato necessarily, uh, or Lao Tzu, because remember, you know, in our previous conversation, um and so I would I would characterize the like the journey back into deeper Christianity for me was a circuitous path that in high school involved Lao Tzu and the Dao Te Ching, and then in college involved Plato, and helped me like kind of via Augustine and Boethius land more solidly in the in the Christian tradition, um and then you know ultimately two uh figures later. Um but but yeah, I would I would say there's kind of a in my in my wandering Lao Tzu and then Plato um really helped keep me in the game, so to speak. Um and you know, kind of I think I I mentioned last time the how captivated I was by the beginning of the Tao De Ching, you know, the Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao, the name that can be named is not the eternal name. But then, of course, you know, grappling with with Plato, um, and I would say especially Phaedo, and maybe that's why I'm working on it to this day, but that that question of philosophy as preparation for death, um, which is really a how should we then live question. Um and then I became tremendously annoyed that uh to remember that my dad, um you know, one of the Sunday school materials that I had been raised on was the How Should We Then Live uh series by by Francis Schaefer, you know, wearing his um like long socks trudging through the Alps and so forth, uh talking about history and apologetics and stuff, things that honestly had been less appealing to me as a young man, at least in that presentation. Um, but then to realize like, okay, that that really is the question. You know, what how should we then live um if these things are true? Um and and this for me, you know, especially Plato, but just that spirit of rigorous discussion, um, of intellectual humility, yes, but also kind of intellectual ferocity, uh that we engaged in with our peers to to just not settle for for easy answers and to keep taking, you know, to for me, at least um as as a young man, that was really necessary, right? Because so often I have been in situations where I felt like we were afraid of what the implications of something might be, or we had backed off from the truth. Um and I didn't want that. And so, you know, I what I sensed um both with with my wife and and our friends and and you know, many who were important in the program was that we really could do that there, you know, and so any program that I've gone on to work in um or found uh from that point on, I wanted to find the way to uh in a in an age-appropriate way, right? Because it's different for junior hires than it is for high schools or college students, um, to one, foster that that openness to discussion. Um because it's also really important, you know, uh there's when you when you talk about open inquiry and discussion, you know, there's there's this funny overlap between, I would say, left and right, uh, if we're if we're gonna make some camps. Um where actually both parties are kind of okay with with saying a phrase that I've actually used myself, though I try not to anymore. But you know, the well, we don't teach them what to think, we teach them how to think. Right, right, right, right. And that that phrase has really uh not aged well for me, because um, and and maybe for for many who work in classical education, because in one sense, for what the person means, I I agree. There's an art of discussion, an art of reading well and thinking well. There is like the use of formal logic, all these things that you can be trained in. Um as far as you know, they they do sharpen you and give you tools for how to think. But how to think is useless if you aren't convinced of a couple of things. Namely namely that truth some what's some really important what's yeah, some really important what to think, right? A really important what to think if you're gonna approach how to think is truth is real and it is knowable by humans, and it's worth knowing.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Yeah, I mean that's that's even from the Mino, right? Yeah, like that's and it's put in there in terms of like why Socrates, why should we even have this discussion if uh if we don't know? And if we don't know, how could we know? Right? And and Socrates has to go through this whole story, right? Which I know is debated. Like, does he just create this story so that we can get over it and just do the thing because obviously we can find truth, but but yeah, exactly. You have to start there. Um there's some sorts of we we I I think there's several things here. One we're so afraid of positing something as true given our life experience with the young, as though it's not kind of their job to try and test that stuff anyway, you know? Um like, yeah, uh it's much easier to to fight against something or have intellectual ferocity when someone has a clearly defined thesis than when they're pretending like they don't have a thesis at all. Yeah. Um, right? Like the second you think you read something and you're like, huh, this person's not claiming anything. It's like, oh yeah, they are. Um they're just being sneaky about it. So I think that's one piece. And then I love that you brought up intellectual ferocity because I think we also are in this spirit and age where it's like, well, we don't want to disagree, because that would mean we're not friendly with each other. Um whereas I don't know that you can make certain progress intellectually without some intellectual adversaries. Like, even if it's even if it's like kind of within the ring or in the sport, like we're we're being intellectual adversaries on purpose. We know we're doing that. Um but but yeah, and why are we so okay with the physical adversity of two teams coming together, and we recognize that nature kind of demands that for excellence, but then intellectually we shouldn't do the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

I think I think this gets exactly to the line that has captivated me since I was 19 when Socrates says it's easier to flee death than wickedness, right? We all know what it feels like, I thought maybe uh um to be playing a sport and and realize like, oh, that guy's way better than me. You know, or I know what that's like. Yeah, you too. I'd be wrestling or something, you know. I played hockey all through um all through high school. So up to the point where guys were starting to get pretty big. And I'm not small. Uh I'm 6'3.

SPEAKER_02 38:52

Um Yeah, John's surprisingly really tall, by the way, for anyone watching this.

SPEAKER_01 38:57

But but as Alex could attest, I'm not like a linebacker build, right? I was kind of just on the pure scoring side in in hockey. So I had to be fast, I had to have good puck handling skills and good shooting, but also get out of people's way because I would get crushed, right? And so we all know what that kind of physical threat feels like or that physical realization of a limitation, right? When you bump up against it, depending on what exactly is happening, it can be a little scary, right? We don't like to admit that. Um but that that feeling of sudden panic that you might have when realizing that someone really is like outmatching you physically. I think we feel that even more so when we realize that someone is outmatching us intellectually, like our soul feels imperiled, and so we flee, right? And so we we pretend that we do not care or pretend that it's okay to have differing opinions on this, even when we're talking about something that literally life and death, um, you know, because we're we're so afraid to lose it in that realm. I think I think in a deep, deep sense, we feel even more at peril, right? This is why people get so defensive if they haven't been trained, especially in in discussion and argumentation. You know, when when you get to do that, you can you can approach discussions a bit more like sparring or wrestling. You know, not that you should just like I don't want to be like I'm I'm not advocating for like the debate bro who's you know just really is trying to make people's lives difficult and comes off as a total jerk. I don't mean that, but I just mean like you know, if if we decide to switch topics right now and just start talking about church doctrine and history, you know, I'm an Anglican, poor me. Um, and uh are are y'all both Catholics?

SPEAKER_02 41:00

Some would say you've gone too far. Yeah, but uh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

We're we're both Catholic converts. So yeah. I stopped my way through Anglicanism. I just want to invite you in the water's warm, though. Yeah, over here.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

Appreciate it. Well, right. And so if we started talking about that, we we could all just, you know, uh part of the thing we would have to do is like feel our way past the arguments that we know we've all heard, right? Now for the three of us, where does it really, you know, where where do we really differ? And what is the what is the kernel there? What's the thing that we could all try and get at? Um but that especially that first part where we were sort of feeling our way past the old familiar arguments, we it would just be kind of like fun sparring, right? Yeah. Um and we could and we could navigate through that, but so many people that conversation feels really threatening, right? Um, and I think that's very interesting because I I really I think physical analogs are so helpful when thinking about the soul, and I think it's I think it's that feeling of of sudden panic, but even more hidden from view and times 10 in a way, because when it's when it's your body, uh you know, it's easy when I'm sitting here in this chair to be like, I might be the fastest man in the world, who knows? Um and then if I race one train where I will be quickly disabused of that. But at the moment, I'm not in peril of being disabused of that, right? Yeah, I don't actually think that either. But but it's it's even more hidden from view in our souls, right? That we are not that knowledgeable, that we are not sound, right? This is another amazing part of the Phaedo when when Socrates is talking about um the greatest ill that can befall a human, he says, is misology, the hatred of rational discourse, a hatred of the argument, essentially. Um and he says that uh it it arises out when we you know kind of latch on to a particular argument and then we it gets disproven, and then we latch on to the next argument and sort of put all our stock on that and it gets disproven, and so on and so forth until we form the opinion like okay, no argument is sound, no argument is reliable or worthy, uh and we kind of turn into relativists of a kind. But Socrates says we're we're making the biggest mistake because it is we who are not yet sound. That we could become so like that's that's the really good news for Socrates, and that's the the news that I saw I felt like I saw a through line from Socrates into you know, that that does set you up to receive the gospel, and that it's You up to hear St. Justin Martyr talk about why he thinks you know Socrates is actually a Christian, because the way that you become sound is not through your own effort, it is through a continued like engagement with the Lagos. Right? Right. Um that's that's what Socrates says in uh in the Phaedo. Um and so then, of course, when St. Justin Martyr is reading the Gospel of John, for instance, and hears you know, in the beginning Lagos was with God and the Lagos was God, he thinks he sees the connection between what Socrates was talking about 400 years ago and what is being observed there in the Gospel. Um, now some people are uncomfortable with that. I don't I don't want to uh make that seem as if that's the only reasonable case for Christianity. I'm just trying to point out this resonance in kind of the trajectory that I saw unfolding of okay, it's apparently really important to uh believe that truth is real, that it's knowable, and that when you get disappointed by a particular uh narrative or account, as as Socrates calls them, uh you should be really most willing to believe that it's because you're not yet sound. Right? Yep. But you could become sound. And if you keep engaging with the arguments, you will.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

I think that's I think that's so important. I mean, so is that was that the crux of it for you in terms of removing the wedge between philosophy and theology?

SPEAKER_01 45:44

Yeah, I I think that was I think that was absolutely um just a huge, a huge part of it. And and you can kind of see like how maybe Constellation of Philosophy set me up for for that trajectory specifically, because um, you know, the first part is is all like lovely and pastoral and comforting. And then before you know, you're talking about divine simplicity, and I think many, you know, uh approach of that text, and think like, well, how does this hold together? And but for me, even at that age, I was I thought, well, of course. This is what like these are the questions you have to ask if if you're really gonna trust that uh this is the this is the path to pursue, right? It it has to be something that can't just make you feel better in the moment, which is why the muses are so unacceptable. Uh the elegiac muses anyway, are so unacceptable to Lady Philosophy. Um it's not that Boethius doesn't need poetry, he does need poetry. Lady philosophy keeps singing him songs as they're working their way through the arguments, but they're of a really different kind and nature than than what he had been kind of self-soothing with before.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

So is this need to spar? Is this what starts sparking your curiosity for teaching?

SPEAKER_01 47:14

Yeah, I I I think so, in a in a way, and uh honestly just gratitude for for the fact that I had been placed in a situation where that was possible. I I think I you know I try to be fair with with teachers, you know, uh because I consider myself one. Um I know that there's a part of me that is the the nerdy guy who just wants to keep talking about Play-Doh, right? But I I am that way because of how enriching that has been. Right. Yep. Um, and I want to provide that, provide the the conditions where that can occur for others, right? And so especially when when I would think to myself, you know, I I I didn't plan to be a teacher. Um, my mom would be laughing if she was watching this clip because from a young age she would tell me that I was gonna be a teacher because I would always be reading these books and then like come out of the living room and be like, mom, did you know? And uh, but I I always rejected that that notion. I thought, no way, that's never gonna happen to me. Um and and then, you know, uh, and it wasn't my path right out of college. Um though what is on my mind, you know, I I kept thinking, like, okay, what what can I do to provide a great books education for not just college students, but maybe younger students as well, who because you know, who if you don't get exposed to great books and discussion before college, it can be really hard to to catch up and have an appetite for that, right? And so just also thinking about like how much I wish I I had come on some of these things sooner um in my life. So I was thinking about it, but um no, right uh out of college, um you know, my main goal uh was to marry my wife, and so I, you know, lots of people are figuring out grad school or internships um in their senior year, and we were just planning like, okay, how do we uh get married and find our trajectory out of out of Biola? Um and it's you know, it's just so funny. It's it's uh tax season these days, and uh my wife was just asking me for for W-2 stuff from work, and she texted me back a little bit later and and said, you know, I was just looking at our historical W-2 statements, and our combined income the year after we got married was$45,000. Wow. And I just, you know, I had I hadn't thought of that in a long time, and maybe we all have stories kind of like that. Oh yeah. Uh but you know, we were so happy uh because we we had we didn't feel imperiled by the fact that we didn't have jobs figured out, we were both you know more well-read and more spiritually alive and and convicted of of Christianity than we ever had been. Um and and so in in a sense, we we thought, okay, item number one really is get married and start a good life together. And after that, we'll see.

SPEAKER_02 50:58

You know, so uh how'd you okay that that seems so simple and true, but it's not um I mean, I think it's happening more than it has in a long time for people that they're just getting married right out of college. But you know, I think the prevailing wisdom from older generations is still figure out the economics of the thing and then do the thing. So how how how did you uh dodge that?

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Or uh yeah, what advice do you have around that? Well, I don't know if anyone should take my advice um because of what I just said about our combined income.

SPEAKER_02 51:39

No, I think that's a I think that's a point in your favor, actually. Yeah, yeah. Plus, plus just let's remember that wasn't uh 45k in 2025, no, which is which is now like you know, 20k. Yeah. Right. But but anyway, but yeah, that's not the point. But yeah, no, really, what's the advice there?

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Yeah, I mean, I I think the there's there's the C.S. Lewis line that comes to mind. You know, I know it's not about marriage and material goods, it's actually about God and and material goods, but I think uh there's a principle that we can use here. You know, he says if you aim for the second thing, you are you will neither get the second thing nor the first thing. But if you aim for things, you will get the second thing thrown in. Um and I think there's a there's a deep cosmic truth to that, um, which is not the assertion that our lives always go pleasantly well, right? Um you have to take a long view of of things to for for that to be accompanying and and true statement, I think. Um but that kind of goes back to the philosophy as preparation for death. Like that again, something you have to take the long view about, and when you do, man, it's really, really helpful and sound. Um so I mean, for for me, the exercise was okay, what's the first thing right now? Um, and honestly, I had a bunch of friends, and you know, I was connected with some along who were a little bit older than than myself, and I think they thought I was nuts or a failure or something like that for a little while there, honestly, because the rest of them were doing the smart thing, like conventional wisdom on this, like grad school, internships, you know, the clear profession trajectory, and and to their credit, those things were hard to do. They're worth doing. Um it it it shows well of them that they were approaching it in order to also set up uh often, you know, a solid family life.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

And uh John's so gracious, isn't he? Say that again. He's so gracious for the people who are like doing the opposite thing. That's right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:00

Well, they they fed him, so he has to be. I I know because I did a very similar thing out of college too. We made no money, got my degree in uh philosophy and Christian studies, and we were dirt poor. There are all these people who are more, you know, uh earthy-minded, and they were at the hands of Providence. It's a good point. So it's a good point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

Well, and you know, I try and I know my path is kind of strange, and so um here's like I'll I'll I'll give this one like just the unvarnished assertion. You really should prioritize people in your life over careers or programs or that. And so when people don't do that, I I I have way less patience with them. But there's kind of the you know, the Socratic, like here's the here's the crazy thing. No one is consciously thinking to themselves, and now as I do my erroneous and damaging thing, you know, they're I'm so right about X, right? Um and so trying to trying to imagine what what that is, even in best case scenario, you know, otherwise you might miss people, just uh, you know, in in your own uh understanding. But yeah, I mean absolutely uh Christians are not exempt from this either. Like mistakenly prioritizing career and social advancement over individual people. Um, that's yeah, and and so for me the the the simple answer was Megan is the priority, right? That's where we start. And it turns out, no, I don't think I need to make lots of money right out of college, um, in order to do right by her. Um and fortunately, she didn't think that either. Uh things could have gone differently, I suppose. That does help. But but that's I I think why why we were together at that point is you know, we both had that kind of shared commitment that even if we were really poor, uh if you know, if we had each other, we would be happy. And that and that proved true, you know. Uh and so uh even on into like when we started to have kids, we've got four now, uh, who two boys, two girls, nine, seven, four, and two. So it's uh it's a very loud household in the Muller family. But um yeah, just prioritizing the people in the family, even over above, you know, the jobs that we have, and we've had important jobs along the way. Um, you know, I'm very thankful for my role at Aristoy. Uh it's my first CEO role. Um, being a superintendent is you know, it's a weighty responsibility. But I also have have a strong conviction that my office and even my institution is not more important than the people in my life.

SPEAKER_02 57:02

Yeah, that's so important. And I I think that's a perfect segue to talk about the that uh trajectory of your work in education. Um, but I do just want to say, like, especially as a Catholic, I know people have different vocations, but those vocations are connected still to marriage, parenthood. And I think the longer you put those off when they're there and in front of you, um, the worse it makes you. At least in my personal experience. Like, I was not improved for spending more time unmarried. I did like my path to holiness is definitely through the um you know the sacrament of of marriage and and family. Um and there's a reason it gets harder for people when they continue to prioritize other things. So yeah. Um anyway, okay, but we only have a few minutes left. So I want to talk through, as you're an educator, you know, how did you know that that was something you wanted to do? I think you talked about a little bit there, but yeah. But maybe let's go into to when you moved out to Houston, what what really what fruit did you see coming from being an education?

SPEAKER_01 58:24

Yeah, so I was really fortunate, you know, to come out and work at Houston Baptist University, um, but to work with um a couple of people to start a dual credit program, uh dual credit grade books program for high school students. That then um we kind of had this experience of okay, we started doing this because we thought we wanted to prepare people for college, right? To be able to do the honors college at uh HBU, now HCU, um, to get the most out of that, or if they want to go to Tory to get the most out of that, or Thomas Aquinas College or something, right? Um and then we thought, okay, we didn't catch them soon enough. We gotta expand this out into a junior high program as well. So I designed this whole three-year sequence called Intro to Great Books, and that was my primary teaching role um for a couple of years, you know, and then I I would also teach in in high school um in the dual credit classes, but but for a while junior high became the thing that I was most captivated by. I know that sounds strange, um, because most people don't find themselves deliberating between, okay, should I go to grad school or should I teach junior high? Um and and and feel really excited about both. And that maybe maybe lots of people in humanities do actually find themselves in that position, but they don't feel excited about the junior high one. And I actually really did, because you know, I was able to design the curriculum, you know, kind of thematically um around, and we would read, you know, Chronicles of Narnia and The Hobbit, but also sprinkle in you know harder texts, um, Shakespeare, Plato, Aristotle, um, to kind of prepare them so that when they started the chronological sequence in ninth grade with us, that they would be familiar with reading some really hard texts, but also doing so alongside books like The Land, the Witch and the Wardrobe, where they would then still be able to have this conversation about virtue and about death that really fits well with the Phaedo, but they're kind of waiting in, right? Um, and I just I found that so fun to to be able to sit with 14 eighth graders in in a classroom and do them the honor of treating them like they were capable of valuable reading and valuable thought, um, and that I was going to ask them a question and then really pursue the conversation together. Um and I found that they responded well to that as as well. I know uh yeah, junior hires have have a bit of a reputation, even amongst experienced teachers, but um, and I don't want to make it sound like, well, I I did it perfectly and everything's fine. But like teenagers, you know, uh later on, they are capable and they they can respond when when they can tell that you're teaching from a place of one, that they need to know that you know the stuff. So you have to be able to show them that every once in a while. But they also want to know that you are gonna take them seriously and listen to what they say, right? And so for me, since I was approaching it from a place of, okay, what this is about when we read the Phaedo or when we read the Chronicles of Narnia, this is about the formation of our souls. Right? I wasn't concerned about like they didn't understand the the foreshadowing that happens in chapter 13, you know. Um they they should, right? If we do get there as well. But what it's primarily about is the formation of our souls through a worthy text and a real discussion with other people who are made in the image of God, right? And and that's what I found just so uh you know invigorating for for me uh in in teaching, but I can also tell that for many of the students I I was in a room with, they felt like they hadn't really had an opportunity like this before.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:48

Yep. And had you seen middle schoolers do this before, or was this just something you were testing out and you you had the conviction that they could? Yeah. Just wanted to see.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Yeah, I know. I had never observed, and it's probably a good thing that I had not observed anyone before because I might have thought, oh, it can't be done.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:06

But um When did you know that it was working?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:11

Um I would say well, it it's funny. There's there's the part of teaching where you don't actually ever know that it's working. Right? Uh there's there's a good story about uh I think it was Jim Harbaugh. He was he was the the he was coaching in college at in Michigan, right? Yes, yes, yes. Okay, yes, I think that's it. And uh there's this Andy.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:41

I'm from Arizona, so I don't know, I don't know much about the the rest of the country. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:46

Yeah, I was getting the other Harbaugh brother in my mind. But that that's right, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:50

Yeah. Well, I think it was Jim, not Mark. But anyways, regardless, uh he you know, uh someone who had graduated recently kind of came for a visit and you know had been on the team maybe just a couple years ago, and he he came into the locker room, everyone's like filing out to you know go take the field for practice, and he says, like, hey coach, you know, how they how they doing this year, you know, what kind of team we got. And Harbaugh apparently said something like, Oh, I don't even know what kind of team we had when you were on. We're gonna be able to tell when you were all like fathers and husbands. That's when we'll be able to tell how good a team it actually was. Uh and I think that's great. Nice. I I yeah, I don't know anything much about Harva aside from that anecdote, but I like that. Um and and there's something very, very true for for teachers in that as well. Like there's so sorry, Ryan, this is such a long answer to a simple question. I felt like it was working. But he likes British things, and that's the British way. That's the British way.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

So in a in a simple way, I felt like it was working immediately. Right. Right. Because I mean, I I just did it you can tell.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

You can tell. I think that's the exciting we've all taught eighth graders in in here, and I think the exciting thing about them is uh you know whether whether they're interested or not pretty much right away. Oh, yeah. Pretty much right away.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

That's the whole game of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:23

Because they have no interest in pretending uh if it's not if it's not working.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:29

Yeah, maybe that's what I mean because I saw that you you get a front with most of them, and uh well maybe not most of them, but a lot of them, and they uh many of them enjoy putting up the front that they don't care or they're not interested. And if you can just catch them off guard with something that's surprising or interesting or beautiful, they can't help it. The guard drops. Uh so I'm so that's what I'm wondering. D do you have moments like those where you noticed Oh, the guard's down.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

Oh, yeah. No, one of my one of my favorite moments as a teacher, uh, and I guess this is bound to happen. Like you're bound to have some really good moments in year one or two, just to, you know, God probably sends you those uh special delivery just so that you don't completely lose hope and you, you know. Um there was this uh we were having a man a man who was thirsty discussion. Um so that was with eighth graders. And you know, we started talking are you guys familiar with the text?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:32

Yeah, Chesterton.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:34

Yeah, yeah. So the subtitle is A Nightmare. So a man The Man Who Was Thursday, a nightmare. Um and it's a strange book about you know, secret police and all kinds of um intrigue and political agendas and and so forth. Um, it's a lot of fun. Everyone should read it. But there's this figure in there who maybe is supposed to kind of be the god figure of the story, right? Uh, whose name is Sunday. And I asked a question about Sunday. Now, Sunday does all kinds of disturbing things in in the novel, because maybe the the novel is uh kind of riffing on the book of Job a bit as well. And so Sunday as a god figure does things that are really unsettling to some of the main characters at numerous points. And I don't want to spoil anything, but I asked a question about like, you know, whether Sunday has a plan. Um and and they started just like falling back on hilarious platitudes about, yeah, you know, God always has a plan. And but like, which is again, it's all true, but in the face of the events of the book, you you sound crazy if you say that, right? Because saying that Sunday clearly has a plan is is at least a really fraught assertion. Like you're gonna you're gonna have to do some work to to back that up. And and so I was you know, I just remember sitting there being like, this is this is insane. They're all like defaulting to they're not thinking right now, they're defaulting to the kind of ponytues that they've heard and and sort of received as like, well, this is what you say in this kind of moment, but they're not thinking. I was like, what do I do? Um and so I just they had all handed in these uh you know homework assignments to me. And so like as we're we're carrying on the discussion, you know, I kept I like engaging them, working them in the eye, asking them clarifying questions, and I just started riffing up their homework and rubbing it into balls and throwing it at random people who are not talking. And uh that's an eighth-grade flex move right there. Yeah, well, you have to do stuff like that. Yep. But it was actually it, and you know, and I don't always have good ideas like that, but it was exactly right for that moment. Uh-huh. Yep. Because, you know, at a certain point I just had to be like, guys, do you trust that I have a plan right now? All right. Is it all going to work out for your benefit? Like whatever it is I'm doing right now, is it okay? And they were just kind of stopped in their tracks. Like they didn't know what to say. And that was what we needed in that moment to be actually able to progress and dig in to the text because they had to be shaken out of like whatever weird default answers they were they were providing. Um yeah, and it's funny because that's awesome. I don't I don't it is not my goal at all to scare or disenchant young people in those kinds of conversations. I actually want them to leave those conversations more hopeful about the truth than they ever have been before. But you have to be willing to shake them out of lazy thinking.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:08

Yeah. Yeah, I think there's I mean, I think that anecdote r uh hits the heart of what we've been talking about this whole time. Um that the platitudes uh are just another form of not being willing to engage, not being willing to play um the game, you know, and and uh and confront something that ultimately will really bother you at some point, right? So like you you simulated it there in the classroom of like, hey, you just worked on this thing and I'm doing this really unjust thing to you. Um but that's life's gonna do that to you, and what are you how are you really going to respond? You're not gonna respond to God with a platitude when he denies you something you really want, you know, or or uh allows something really difficult to happen to you. Um so I think it's fantastic. Well, I know we're we're at time, aren't we? I think we are. Oh my goodness. It's crazy. Which means we need a part three. Okay, but we're gonna wait a while on that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:20

We're gonna wait a while on that. Yeah, I think so. But this has been so much fun. For sure. Thank you again for coming on, uh putting up with us and going for two rounds of this nonsense, but it has been an absolute joy to uh be on the other end. Uh Aristoi is so lucky to have a leader like you at the helm who is uh so well formed and so educated, but so humble and hasn't forgotten what the eighth grader is like. Um I'm so encouraged about where this institution is gonna be going in the next several years. So appreciate it. Thank you for this time.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

Yeah, yeah, thanks. It was great talking with you guys. And uh let me know about part three someday. Look forward to it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:05

Or the whole long form podcast that everybody is gonna vote on and say, yes, that is what we want. These are two good. That's true. Yeah, we'll do something like that. We'll see. Uh all right, you're gonna close this out. Yeah, and that does it for another episode of the Furrows Podcast. Thank you for checking in. We'll catch you next time.