Truth Fears Nothing in Investigation: Dr. Anthony Sciubba on Classical Christian Education

Dr. Anthony Sciubba leads one of the largest K–5 classical schools in the Southwest at Great Hearts in the Phoenix Valley. In this conversation, he traces a journey from a public school upbringing in Gilbert, Arizona—where Great Expectations bored him to tears in seventh grade—to a transformative encounter with the great books at Pepperdine, graduate studies at Yale, Oxford, and Emory, and ultimately a calling to bring classical Christian education to children at the elementary level.

What's in This Episode:

• How a great books colloquium at Pepperdine first introduced Anthony to Augustine, the Church Fathers, and the intellectual richness of early Christianity
• The Clement of Alexandria vs. Tertullian debate—and why the question of what Athens has to do with Jerusalem is far more than an academic one
• A deep dive into Gregory of Nazianzus—poet, bishop, theologian, and reluctant monk—and the two books Anthony recommends for entering his world
• Why classical Christian education may be the most historically significant and most ecumenical movement in modern American Christianity
• How Anthony's move from higher education to K–12 school leadership reflects the classical conviction that education forms the whole person—mind, heart, and soul

Chapters:

• 00:00: Introduction / Anthony's Childhood in Arizona
• 02:22: First Encounter with Classical Literature
• 09:19: Great Books Colloquium at Pepperdine
• 14:03: Athens and Jerusalem—Clement of Alexandria vs. Tertullian
• 21:08: Gregory of Nazianzus—Poet, Bishop, and Theologian
• 28:07: C.S. Lewis at The Kilns
• 37:46: Classical Christian Education and the Great Conversation
• 54:17: From Pepperdine to Yale, Oxford, and Great Hearts
• 1:03:33: Why K–12? The Practicality of Classical Education
• 1:10:35: How This Transforms Others: The Classical School Movement

Resources Mentioned:

• St. Gregory of Nazianzus: An Intellectual Biography by John A. McGuckin
• Gregory of Nazianzus on the Trinity and the Knowledge of God by Christopher A. Beeley
• Classical Learning Test
• Arcadia Education

Hosted by Ryan Klopack (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education.

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to the Furrows Podcast, a podcast where we have conversations with classical educators who have been transformed by classical education and are in the process of continuing that great work in transforming the souls of others. I'm Ryan Klopak, the Director of Search over at Arcadia Education, and I'm joined here by Alex Julian, the director of the backlaureate program over at CLT. And Alex, we've got a really exciting guest on today. Would you tell us a little bit about who is joining us?

SPEAKER_02 0:41

Yeah. So this is Dr. Anthony Shuba. He runs uh one of the largest K-5 classical schools in the Southwest, if not the largest, um, uh based out of the Phoenix Valley. And we're really excited to have him on today. I don't want to give more of a background than that because uh then the episode would be over. So we're gonna we're gonna go into it right now. Um but yeah, Anthony, I'd just love to start with who was little Anthony Shuba, you know, growing up pre-classical, because you're one of the most classically versed people I know. And and I'm guessing there's a before and after.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

Well, thank you. Um so yeah, I was born and raised here in Arizona. Um, got to uh uh got to grow up in Gilbert actually when it was just it was farmland then. It was not yet Scottsdale 2.0.

SPEAKER_02 1:33

It smelled a lot different.

SPEAKER_04 1:34

Yes, yes, it absolutely did. Um and uh uh got to grow up on five acres um uh across the street from my grandparents uh in the house that my parents still own. Um so that was that was awesome. And uh did public education uh growing up my entire life. Uh very much uh enjoyed it and uh benefited well from that. And uh and then just grew up in a really good supportive uh faith community, um, one that really emphasized uh sort of the fundamentals of the New Testament and the scriptures. Uh and I think that that was sort of my uh my first encounter with what you could call something, something classical. Uh the schools that I grew up in didn't really emphasize particular works of literature or the classics, so to speak, um, as much. Uh it was really through that experience uh just growing up uh in Christianity that I first encountered the scriptures. So um definitely uh enjoyed always getting to the bottom of those uh and uh grew up in a in a denomination that really emphasized going back to the origins of things. And so uh that element of classical education has just always resonated deeply with me and been baked into my DNA. Um uh but it didn't always translate to actual literature. Um in seventh grade, uh I had the dubious distinction of being in one of the one of the cohorts that got to go on a more accelerated pace. Um I thought that was exciting at first, right, as a middle school student. Uh and then we read Great Expectations by Charles Dickens. And I was bored out of my mind.

SPEAKER_02 3:13

In seventh grade, yes. Oh wow.

SPEAKER_04 3:16

Yeah, uh hated it. Um and uh I remember saying at one point in one of the discussions uh to my teacher, I I'm under the impression that uh a work has to be boring in order to be classical. Is that true? And I meant every word of it. And uh it kind of reminded me, well, it didn't remind me then, but it reminds me now, of um something that Winston Churchill writes in there's a short essay that he writes on painting, and in that essay he talks about classical education and classical literature. And one of the things he said is, be wary of reading something classical too early. Um, and so that's been a good uh sort of sobering reminder for me now is you can kind of kill that enthusiasm if you go too early. So uh definitely was not always drawn to classical literature, uh, given that story with uh with Dickens, but uh kind of began to turn around and turn towards that eventually as time went on.

SPEAKER_02 4:12

Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

Were you a shallow kid growing up, or were you uh trying to be deep? I mean, tell tell me about that. Like um I know that there are a lot of people who get into classical education and then looking back, they think, oh, I feel like I was actually kind of skating on the surface a lot. I don't I don't know if that was true for you, if you were always intellectually curious, uh if you if you had a hunger, uh, or if that was just something that developed later on.

SPEAKER_04 4:44

I think I always had a hunger for it, but I didn't know exactly what I was hungering after.

SPEAKER_03 4:49

Right.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Um uh I remember at times picking out a book because it looked like it was something that an older person would read, you know. Um uh read some some Sherlock Holmes because that was just fun, uh, or um, you know, some of the other adventure books for that same reason. Um uh but kind of had had always had that desire for a deeper knowledge, I think, growing up. That doesn't mean that there wasn't a shallow ness in the midst of it. So especially like, you know, in grad school, when one tries to really be academic and posture a little bit and uh write the write the paper in a way that sounds really, really polished when you can really just kind of say the thing and move on. Um definitely uh played that card way more often than I should have. Um uh and had good professors who sort of taught me how not to do that, uh, which was a blessing. Um but yeah, I'd say that there was always an interest in in going deeper into things and uh kind of understanding understanding it more fully.

SPEAKER_02 5:52

So I I think that's I think that's so interesting that in seventh grade you said uh it has to be boring to be classical. Because I think people still think I actually think uh the majority of people coming from the outside, that's step one.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

You know, and and maybe they think it's good like taking their medicine as good. But I I think some parents uh think that if they're gonna send their kids to a classical education, there's almost a sigh of relief it's not them because their kids are gonna read all these good but boring books and labor through this thing. And I don't think it's associated with joy, wonder, curiosity. I mean, we talk about that, but from the outside, I don't think it is.

SPEAKER_04 6:39

No, and it actually kind of uh, I mean, I don't know about you guys with uh with teaching middle school and high school, but uh for me that always brought a sigh of relief that, you know, in middle school, I thought this was really boring. Um, and then I fell in love with it, right? And so uh there's an element to which I think that as one teaching elementary school or middle school or high school, you know, there could be a feeling of, oh, if only they just knew how great this was. But to pause and remember, well, I didn't know how bright this was. Yeah. And that's okay. Uh, and this all comes with time. Um, but yeah, uh C.S. Lewis wrote something about that in, I think it was a uh book called Fern Seeds and Elephants, where he mentions there's um the there's this time where you start learning Greek, uh just because, you know, you're sort of told to. And uh maybe you notice that it's gonna help you with uh uh with getting a better score on the MCAT or something like that. But uh it's totally a means to an end. Uh and then there comes a point when the person who's learning Greek actually ends up loving it and uh finding in it things that they w didn't even know existed, right? Um uh and so I think that as we spend more time um with most good things, uh, we experience that, right? A lot of a lot of the best things are acquired tastes. And uh um, but yeah, there is that counterpoint where uh, you know, it can it can seem dry at first. Um one of my favorite movies is the movie Amazing Grace about how William Mold were forced into the slave trade. And one of my favorite scenes is when uh one of the one of the guys in the movie is walking around with his his newborn and he's reciting this beautiful poetry and it's in a field and it seems so idyllic and so so classical. And he says, That is a poem, and I have absolutely no idea what it means, but I was meant to meant to memorize it as a child, and I don't see why you shouldn't have to suffer too.

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Um well were there during that time, were there teachers, key teachers or key texts you read where it was the right time and the right level and it was taught in the right way, and that stood out to you?

SPEAKER_04 8:52

That's a great question. Um, I I had awesome teachers throughout middle school and high school, uh, and really gravitated a lot towards the sciences at that time. Just a lot of uh a lot of uh of the things in science really sort of spoke to the desire to go deeper, right? Um the fact that you could always learn more about photosynthesis, for example. Um so I definitely wanted to be a doctor at first and like, you know, be uh be a science major and uh focus on math and those sorts of things. Um and there was I really enjoyed studying history, took some AP history courses, those were wonderful. Uh, but there wasn't anything especially deep about um the classics that I encountered or experienced in in middle high school, in middle school or high school, actually. Uh it was really in college that that happened. Um so uh I was informed that I'd be enrolled in a books, in a uh uh seminar called Great Books Colloquium at Pepperdine. Uh and I didn't know what colloquium meant, uh, but I I thought that the books would probably be good. Um and so uh was enrolled in that and and really, really loved it. And uh that was kind of the moment when I first truly encountered, uh, encountered the classics and um learned that there were there were people who had studied uh the deep questions that I was interested in uh and had come up with way more brilliant answers than I ever could have come up with. Uh using similar texts that I had used, right? Like using the New Testament or the Old Testament, things like this. Um and those uh those findings really, really spoke to me. So um, yeah, like uh I guess one more tangible story of that would be uh just kind of in the midst of uh growing up in high school in Arizona, encountering just different, different religious traditions, right? Where uh very different understandings of like the divinity of Christ could exist. And uh going back and asking those questions at my church and uh having my church, which was very supportive and really great at helping me to go deeper into the New Testament, not really have answers as far as creeds or councils or any of those sorts of things, right? Nothing really connected with historic Christianity. And so it was only in college that I learned there's a guy named Augustine, and he had some of these questions. And he came up with some really phenomenal answers to some of these questions, and uh and and actually he had a lot of contemporaries who had a lot more to ask. So uh it was really through the Great Books Colloquium at Pepperdine. Um, and then uh a couple of really phenomenal teachers at Pepperdine, uh, Dr. Brian Givens, Dr. Stuart Davenport, who um who helped me really get into uh early Christian theology uh and classical history. And uh um that ended up being being a real delight. I became really obsessed with the question of how did the first Christians read the Bible? Like how did how did the Romans read the letter that Paul wrote to them? Uh, and felt very strongly that the way to answer that question was not just to study a bunch of works of theology, not just to study uh the New Testament, uh, but ultimately to study all of the works that the Romans themselves read uh and experienced and wrote, uh, the the history in which they lived, uh, the buildings that they inhabited. And so uh this this created a desire to go uh on the deepest level I could in understanding both the classics and then also early Christian theology. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

What were those two things in competition uh in your mind at any point as far as like here's the culture of the Romans, the one that uh uh the the poor Jews were trying to struggle against and uh ends up crucifying Jesus? Did you did you have that uh picture in your mind entering in or at all? Um how did you see those two things working with each other, like the culture of the Romans and the the faith?

SPEAKER_04 13:08

That's a great question. I mean, there's there's obviously that one uh uh one of the uh the verses in the New Testament where Paul Sware talks about the the faith-destroying philosophies of this world, right? Um uh for me, just always being a philosophical guy, I was like, nah, this stuff goes together great. Uh and so uh what I ended up doing was uh trying to get my hands on Christians who disagreed about that in the early church. So one of my favorite things to do uh was to write a paper on Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian, who were contemporaries who didn't know each other, one in North Africa and one in Egypt, uh, who could not have been different, uh more different about anything. Uh, you know, Tertullian having the famous line of what does Athens have to do with Jerusalem? sort of typifying that divide that you just mentioned. Uh, and then Clement of Alexandria, who continued to wear the philosopher's cloak and ran his own classical school in Alexandria, uh, and uh taught Christianity as the philosophy, right? And sort of the uh the fullness of what Plato was going after. And uh so very much enjoyed sort of studying those, those, those guys in tandem. But for me, um, it was there was really uh uh a clear collegiality, I think, between um the leaders of the Christian faith uh and uh the non-Christian leaders in ancient Rome. Uh, there was conflict, obviously, of course, but um, as far as like on the intellectual level, they were they were speaking the same language, like they were, they were asking the same questions, they were using the same sources. Um, and that was really, really interesting. So uh I guess one of the papers that most um developed uh this obsession with the intersection and the integration between Christianity um and and the classics was a paper I wrote on um on the Gnostics uh and Uraneus's Against Heresies that he wrote against the Gnostics. Uh and that was really fun because uh the Gnostics were a second century group. Uh, I mean, they actually, some of them predated Christianity. Um, but there was this idea of, well, we're the true heirs to Plato. Uh and in fact, uh so they would, they were sometimes using uh the work of John. And uh and so Irenaeus uh did his best to argue against them. Fortunately for Irenaeus, uh Plotinus also did the same uh at the same time in uh in Rome. Uh and so uh um the Gnostics ended up not not being a sect that ended up continuing very long. Um but for me it was except again and again throughout history.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

Well, yes, that's true. They kept coming back.

SPEAKER_05 15:50

Yeah, what's that?

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Yeah, what is it about humans that they want to be Gnostic despite how badly it's gone every time?

SPEAKER_04 15:57

Yes, yeah, exactly. Um I think there's a self-importance to feeling like you have the secret. Yeah. You know, I think that there's a self-importance to feeling like you figured out something no one else did.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:08

Um, and so one of the things that I loved about the way that Irenaeus approached it is it was not an elitist argument. It was, it was very much a uh uh, it was just very much a honest, like, no, but you have you have the sources. Anyone can look at these. There's no hidden curriculum, it's all good, right? Uh go go see and taste it for yourself. And uh and so for me, it was having studying the early Christian theologians, saying the patristic sources, it was as if I had an early Christian guide to the Greco-Roman world. Um, like when I was by myself just reading, you know, the works of the Gnostics or just reading Plotinus, um uh it felt a lot more difficult and a lot more opaque. It was, it was very different. But um, the early Christian authors were speaking in the same sort of milieu as I had grown up with, with the New Testament. And so uh it was a really great entry point to then being able to read uh, you know, the the works of the uh of the epic poets and the philosophers and all of that and all the all the classic sources um uh apart from Christianity. So um, but it just the the realization that these were happening at the same time and we're in um vigorous debate with one another, uh, and also also just good discussion. Um it for for me it was it was the reconciliation of two things that felt like they had to be separate growing up, right? So uh growing up in a public high school, church and state are completely separate, right? Um uh and uh with the churches I grew up in, um there uh there was almost an intellectual anti-intellectualism at times. Like the people who were leading and speaking were doing a phenomenal job and knew their scriptures deeply and were very smart people and very successful. Uh, but there could be an anti-intellectualism about it, um, of oh, you shouldn't study those aspects of science, or, you know, uh, you know, one doesn't need to read very much outside the New Testament. Um and so when I saw people like Ambrose of Milan, you know, engaging with Semicus about whether or not there should be an altar of victory in the Roman uh Senate, uh, and both of them pulling on diverse sets of texts and not just like, I mean, it's not they they always argued fairly, but generally speaking, not arguing past each other, but actually like engaging with one another. Um it was to me extremely inspiring, right? Um and I think something that uh classical education really teaches us how to do uh is to uh be able to disagree passionately uh and charitably, uh and uh with a conversation where we care deeply with one another. And that's very much needed, obviously, in uh in the public discourse today, and um something that AI can't fill the void for, right, is that that human interaction. And so um yeah, so I can I can see why uh I can see why there is a tension, I think, between classical and Christian in different circles. Uh, but for me, um for me they come together beautifully. Uh you can do classical without Christian, for sure. Um uh Plato's work uh predates the incarnate ministry of Jesus Christ. Yet at the same time, I also think that classical reaches its culmination in Christ, uh, and that every word that was spoken by Plato or uh or Homer or Virgil uh where it was uh in agreement with Gregory Ignaziensis, uh inspired by the word and wisdom of God. Um so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:52

That's great. Uh for for our our listeners, we usually try to dig into some aspect that they might not be familiar with, some author that they might not be familiar with. So you just named so many different early Christian Roman sources. No, no, it's great. I and and I hope my hope is when people watch this that um or or listen to it that they are like, who's that guy? I know that that's really interesting. And I think you sold them very well, but is there any one of those that you wouldn't mind going into a little more depth that inspired you or that you found really interesting their arguments?

SPEAKER_04 20:31

Absolutely. Yeah. Uh my favorite by far is Gregory of Nazianzis, uh fourth century theologian. Um, most uh most Orthodox listeners would uh recognize him as uh sort of one of the three holy hierarchs. Um, but before that, he was in a college town um in uh uh in Alexandria and also in Athens with uh with his good friend Basil of Caesarea, um, and just very much a product of the Greco-Roman world. Uh grew up in uh a one-horse uh sort of what one horse post town, uh Nazienzis, and uh was uh uh forced against his will uh by his father into the family business of being a bishop. Uh there is the you know the idea of of course that most people who go into leadership, especially theological leadership, will recognize that they're not worthy or try to kind of you know say that they shouldn't be the right person for that, given their shortcomings. Um Gregory of Nazanzis literally ran away, like not metaphorically, literally. Uh one of his second uh sermon, uh uh his second oration is uh an apology for his flight. And I think both in both terms of what apology means, of like, hey, I'm sorry, and also apologia, let me tell you why, right? Uh so uh just such a really interesting story. Um his brother was the uh was the physician, the medical physician to the emperor. And the emperor was the Emperor Julian, who between 361 and 363 tried to change Christianity back to a pagan empire. And then he eventually became uh bishop of Constantinople and chaired the Council of Constantinople from whence the Nicene Creed came from uh 1300 years ago this year, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:21

Uh yeah, just I I just wanna 1700. I just want to uh put out there that there's no relation between me and and everyone. No association there. Just yeah, I gotta cover myself when people bring up the names. Well done. Well done.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

We'll see what ancestry.com says.

SPEAKER_04 22:41

But yeah, so one of the things about Gregory Bnazians that's so wonderful is that he uh he was an orator, he was a pastor, uh, he was a poet, uh, a theologian, a monk who couldn't cut it as a monk. Uh he did not like Basil of Caesarea's very rigorous monastic order. Like for him, you gotta get up, you gotta have a nice cup of coffee, maybe a little like pastry and a croissant before you start your day was not gonna work.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

That was kind of the desert fathers period of time, too. Yes. Like those were the those were like the the guardians of the galaxy monks or the Avengers monks.

SPEAKER_05 23:18

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

People sitting on a pillar, you know, out in the desert, like living on a four by four space.

SPEAKER_05 23:25

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Yeah, where people like Benedict are are like, you know, that's a little too extreme. Yeah. Maybe yeah, maybe we'll get together and do this thing together. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:35

Yeah. Gregory was a bit ahead of the curve in realizing that that was a bit too extreme as well. He he felt that he felt similarly. So um, yeah. Uh so there's just there's kind of something for everybody in Gregory of Nazianzas. One of my favorite things is actually his letters. Um, just a ton of letters from him survive. Um, and they're written to people that you recognize, you know, in the annals of history. Um uh and then um, I mean, he uh he had a uh a debate with the Emperor Julian about uh about Christianity and about uh the place of it in the Greco-Roman world, um, you know, was deeply involved in the Emperor Julian's attempts to actually outlaw Christian education. So classical Christian education was outlawed in the Roman Empire from 361 to 363. Um so yeah, there's just there's a there's a lot there. It's uh it's really deep and really fun. And there are two books, actually, that I'd recommend um that are really helpful for being able to access Gregory's corpus of works. Uh, one is written by John McGunkin, um, and it's Gregory of Nazianzis and Intellectual Biography. And so that book does an amazing job of um just being able to humanize it, get at the context of it, uh, and just fully understand um the Greco-Roman context of what Gregory was experiencing, so that you can access his works really easily. Uh, and then the other book is on the theology, and that's written by um Christopher Bealey. Um, and it's Gregory Banzianzis on the Trinity and the Knowledge of God. And so uh those are two books that are really helpful for reading and then just delving deeper. So that's great. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

I remember growing up having a distinct feeling that most of the world thought that you could either think seriously or you could be a Christian. Um, in order to take option two, you really need to check your brain at the door. And nobody's actually going to Christianity for answers for anything other than maybe uh constellation of what happens to me when I die, or um is there anything more to this? Like almost being like a therapeutic self. But one of my greatest surprises studying classical education and the origins of Christianity was seeing that there was such a rich intellectual tradition at the very beginning of the Christian world. And not only that, that a lot of the great thinkers were asking the sorts of questions that Christianity seemed to be giving the best answers for, or maybe even coming to conclusions that really smell Christian. Um if only you you had a little bit more um context and revelation, you you would have had exactly that. Were there any uh writers that surprised you with how Christian they sounded, even though they were pagan um or neoclassical?

SPEAKER_04 26:42

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh for me it was uh it was the works of Plato uh earlier on while at Pepperdine. Um I was just really uh amazed at how far he could go with his intellectual project, apart from like any revealed knowledge within the Bible. Um and in Aristotle as well, just being able to look at both a deductive and also an inductive approach to knowledge. Um, just the conclusions that they came to were amazing and so often consistent with Christianity. Um, and if they weren't, made you think like really deeply and re-examine uh your thoughts. And so uh I can see why so many early Christian theologians sort of classified them as like you know almost honorary, so to speak, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:33

Yeah. Um yeah, like they're not uh uh Socrates was not named a prophet in the Old Testament. Yeah, but he sure seems pretty prophetic in terms of preparing the Greek world for Christ.

SPEAKER_04 27:47

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Um and so it's actually that's one of the things that brought me to uh to focus on the fourth century was I just really wanted to see these two worlds come together. I want to integrate it more, and I just I believe that God gives you a heart and a head, right? And a body. And uh even if the Gnostics don't think he gave you a body, he gave you a body. Um I give you a heart and a head and a body, and you're meant to honor and glorify and seek him with all of it. Um, and uh any brand of Christianity that says that you need to be um subpar intellectually in order to truly be faithful, uh, it just doesn't seem consistent uh with the greatest commandment. It doesn't seem consistent with um uh with the incarnation and um and the story presented in the scriptures. And so uh yeah, so I ended up looking at the fourth century because there was almost a little crisis of identity for the Christian church in the fourth century. Um, like in the first century, we uh kind of knew who we were, right? Where we're the Jesus followers and uh, you know, trying, trying our best to uh to follow and understand uh like what it means to be Jewish and Christian in the midst of this and how those two worlds come together. And then uh and then second and third centuries, oh, we we became just a little bit too mainstream. Like now, now the Romans know we exist, there's some persecution going on. Uh, but hey, we are the counter-cultural, and it is awesome being the counter-culture, and isn't it great? Uh and then up comes the fourth century, and all of a sudden you are the establishment, right? Uh and it was like it's like moving from teaching to administration, you know.

SPEAKER_05 29:29

Like you're sort of used to like criticizing the administration, like and now like, but and now you're the man. It's like, oh I can't stick it to the man anymore because I'm sticking to myself.

SPEAKER_04 29:39

Like, how do I actually build this thing right and proactively? Um, I I feel like the church was kind of experiencing that in the fourth century of we are no longer underground, but it was cool to be underground. We are now above ground, and what do we do now? Right. Um and uh and what ended up happening, I mean, there's there's a lot of answers to that question, of course. Uh architecturally, you know, that it starts looking more like a Roman basilica, the churches do, and you add some side chapels to make it across and you know, all these fun other things that happen. Uh, but intellectually, there was just such a deep discussion of like the great the greatest minds were now beginning to study theology on a deep level, right? And um, and so as a result, uh there ends up just being so much more depth, so much more richness. And it it became axiomatic during the fourth century that these things could and should go together. Um, and that's that's ultimately why I'm convinced. It's not because of any specific like argument, it's just experiencing it, right? And I think that that's one of the gifts of what a classical Christian education can bring in particular is getting to sort of experience the the culmination and the integration of that worldview ends up being quite inspiring.

SPEAKER_02 31:01

So that's great. I I want to get back to you in a second, like just you personally and your journey and where where where you were, you know, where Anthony was rather than the studying that was happening, but but the time period's so interesting, and you you clearly spent a lot of time studying it. What was your sense of and maybe I should back up? So there is this feeling that okay, all all wisdom really is contained in the New Testament, that's all you need to read, or old, old and new testament, that's the inspired work. You know, in some churches that's the feeling. Um and I know you you felt that, like, oh, you had all these questions, you were you were redirected back to the Bible, but but you wanted more kind of context. Yeah. Did you did you find that some of these great Christians in the fourth century were classically educated and Christian at the same time? And then it wasn't just because they were pagan and then not pagan, but that they felt like this was the sort of right education that they needed to have. Okay. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think that's pretty important and it's not brought up very often. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:18

Yeah. Uh thanks for thanks for sort of just lat latching on that, because I I agree. Um uh there can be a feeling, you know, and it did exist a little bit in the fourth century as well, um, that hey, if if if you if you want to really be serious about your faith, then you've got to avoid certain elements of of study, right? And uh for for the fourth century, there was just so many of the great theologians were uh were were classically trained in the deepest way, people like Ambrose of Milan or Augustine of Hippo, um Gregory uh uh Basil of Caesarea, John Chrysostom, etc. There's there's just such a depth there. Uh and even the the early Christian monks as well, like uh where there can be an anti-intellectual strain just a little bit at times. Even they, it was really clear, had read that stuff. Yeah. Um, and what's especially fun is when a bishop says, I just am weak in my knowledge of the things of the world, and they say it in the most beautiful Latin and Greek possible.

SPEAKER_05 33:24

And there's like all the ablative absolutes going on and stringing together.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

Um it was just really obvious that um uh in the fourth century, um uh and early Christianity at large, uh a strong education was uh was seen as an onboarding to a strong faith, right? And so uh I do think that that ends up being a really compelling reason to take our education seriously. Uh in the world in which we live, we want to love God with our mind uh as well. Um and uh so yeah, I think I think that that's definitely a piece of it.

SPEAKER_01 34:01

That's great. Thank you. Did you the way that you read scripture change after all of this encounter?

SPEAKER_04 34:09

Definitely. Um and in a in a way that's not I guess I guess I'll just have to borrow from the words of anti Wright, where he said that when he says the creeds, um uh his knowledge of what they mean has deepened and changed, right? Um, and that's kind of similar to my experience with the scriptures. So uh just getting to to realize more that Paul was a part of a tradition, right? That he had read uh, you know, his works, that he was in conversation with the apostles. And um, and that uh when the early Christians are talking in Philippians 2, let's say, about uh Christ pouring out uh himself. I I do think that Paul's quoting an early Christian creed there. I don't think he's just writing um uh his own work necessarily in that spot. Um uh that's that I think that that does connect with what Athanasius is talking about with uh uh with the word becoming flesh, right? And with um with the incarnation and God being fully man, uh Jesus being fully man and fully God, right? Um so there's so many times when just things got clarified. Um like Gregory of Nazianzas at one point takes a whole bunch of uh of scriptures that refer to Christ's humanity and a whole bunch that refer to his divinity and just put them together in this beautiful poem that goes back and forth. Um so what could seem as attention ends up like actually just being the invitation, right? Um uh so yeah. Um and also just the experience of actually being a part of academia, going to Yale, going to Oxford, going to Emory, uh, and just seeing that the best of scholarship is always happening through conversation, right? It's always happening through a sharing of ideas, it's always happening through a diversity of thought, um, through conversation with one another, um, and so often through relationships and friendships. Uh uh I didn't really realize until grad school that most of the academics I was reading knew each other and were like friends and colleagues and sometimes hated each other. Um and uh uh and so realizing like, oh, this is this is how this this is how this works, like this is how this happens. Uh and and as I'm d experiencing that, seeing this is how this has always worked, this is how this has always happened, um, and that that's really, really good. Well then then why not, right? Why not bring it all together?

SPEAKER_02 36:47

So I think that's so important because you know, I growing up secular myself, uh the the water I was swimming in was that every set of beliefs is basically just choosing a book to agree with, and all the books are kind of equal. You know, and so this uh when when in um the medieval times Islam intentionally closed themselves off to uh like reading the Greeks and and taking part in the tradition that was in Alexandria and said, no, it's it's just going to be the Quran. I think there's this perception from the outside that every faith decided to do that, and that that is religion itself. Religion is you read your book, you either choose to believe in it or you don't. And uh and now we have a new wisdom because we're not being bound by the totality of a book, but we're interested in reality. And and so I think what what it inspired me so much about classical ed is no, all these people are in conversation with each other, all these texts are in conversation with each other, and that that's actually the only way to have a worldview that meets with reality because we have limited intellects ourselves.

SPEAKER_04 38:09

That's right. Yeah, and I think that's why I'm passionate about classical education in particular, is uh it's there, it's the belief that there is the great conversation, that there is like the large seminar that's happening through the ages. Um and it is not um limiting that conversation to just the ideas and people walking around right now, right? Um as C.S. Lewis mentions in in a work on the reading of old books, the works of the future would be great. We just can't get to them yet, right? Uh we read the old books because even though they're prone to err just as much as the new books are, they're not gonna err in the same direction. Um, and so we want to take do a classical education, reading all the best works through history for the same reason that we want to be interdisciplinary in our approach, right? Uh I don't want uh an ophthalmologist who has only studied the eye, and that is it, and that is all they know about, and they have spent no time studying chemistry or physics or biology, right? Uh I want them to have that deeper, more well-rounded knowledge uh because interdisciplinary is better and you learn more things. Uh so also with with classics, uh it you get a more three-dimensional view, right, of uh of the world. And so um yeah, uh sorry if I'm quoting C.S. Lewis too much. I just I'm I don't feel like that. I'm a little obsessed. Uh I I got to got to be at the Kelns as a scholar in residence uh in the room where he died, actually. Uh I got to live there for a year while I was um it's uh uh just a little bit of a fanboy when it comes to C. S. Lewis. But um uh he um he mentioned that when he was an atheist, he had to believe that all faiths were wrong. Um he had to believe that uh, you know, that ultimately the materialistic world was what there was. Uh and when he became a Christian, he could take a more liberal view, as he called it. Uh he could look at all the different books, uh, he could look at all the different faith traditions, all the different philosophies. Um and in the rare cases when like one very blatantly disagreed with Christianity, he would have to figure out why the Christian one is right, since he's a Christian, uh and took that as a as a as a precept, um uh or why his interpretation was incorrect. Uh but uh but he could go deeper into those things, right? And so kind of what you're saying about, hey, there's just there's this closed off, closed off sort of one-bookedness, you know, uh perception. Uh I think that that's really, really strong and compelling because there's just so much openness, I think, in classical Christian education. It's so deeply ecumenical. Um as a result. There's so much interfaith dialogue as a result. It's actually really kind of funny because classical Christian education, well, just historically speaking, I think it's the most historically significant movement uh in modern American Christianity. I think in 250 years that's going to feel very clear. Um it's also, historically speaking, the most successful attempt at ecumenism. Even though I don't think that was as conscious in the beginning with starting it. Um, but um, and it's ironic because when the World Council of Churches attempted to bring different denominations of Christianity together in, I don't remember, like the 1950s or something, 60s maybe, uh, there were one of the mantras was doc doctrine divides. So, like, let's not talk about theology at all. Um, we're gonna get together and we'll we'll try not to talk about the thing that unifies us, uh, because the doctrine's gonna somehow divide us, right? Um, and classical Christianity is so interesting because um uh despite the fact that it's not dogmatic, it's extremely theological. Uh and there's deep, passionate disagreement um uh that happens within it. Uh, and that disagreement is more exciting, more inviting, right? And it it creates stronger bonds. Uh and uh it's something that I think just reinforces uh precisely what you're saying about there being being an openness to reading all the books, to engaging in all the conversations, and to listening, listening well, hopefully to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Yeah, that's good. I I you know I think the longer I've been in this space, the more I realize the thing you're usually criticizing is the kind of paradigm you're actually living in or the the currency you trade in. And so when you're criticizing, well, you each just have your book that you believe in. It's like, well, but you you have just your narrow tradition and conception of science that you've latched on to.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

You know, and so um, and so that's the book you've decided to believe in, you know, and so the the the mantra lately in the last what five or six years of well, I trust science, you know, and yeah, and science has now become science is real. Yes, science has become the religion, yeah. Uh that that there's a lack of uh humanism there.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

Um and then and so on once you are open to saying, no, let me understand this person's perspective, let me understand this person's perspective, I'm not threatened by that uh because it actually helps me understand what I think in the way that you're talking about C.S. Lewis, um yeah, that's the thing that opens you up to to getting nuance from from other sides. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:51

One of my favorite lines on that subject is it's in Pepperdine's affirmation statement, and it says, truth fears nothing in investigation. And I just love That. Like you're not going to accidentally prove that God doesn't exist while doing your taxes. Like there's there's nothing that you have to worry about. Just delve in, enjoy, right? Um, I think a lot of times there's a posture of fear of like being proven wrong or or finding something that you that you don't uh wish you hadn't found. But um if truth is truth, it's gonna continue to be true. Um and uh there can be a fear of investigation that comes with um some of the secular versions of progressive education, for example. Um uh there's a there's a thought that uh it's it's in there's almost this thought that like atheism is a neutrality somehow. Like that like Christian Christian schools, well those those are confessional, uh in the same way that maybe a Jewish school or a or a Muslim uh school might be confessional. Um but you know, a secular school that's non-confessional. Um somehow atheism is deemed as the neutrality, um, but it's just a spiritual commitment to a non-spiritual reality. Um and so there's always going to be that religious aspect, I think, to uh to anything, well, to really all of life. Um and uh what's special about uh classical Christian education is you just sort of acknowledge that and move forward with going deeper into all of it. Um and I think that that is uh far more um academically free. Um, we talk a lot about academic freedom in higher ed. Uh it's a lot more intellectually sophisticated, it's also just a lot more human, a lot more inviting, yeah, uh a lot more hospitable. Um, and that's good.

SPEAKER_01 45:53

One of the things that you mentioned was just uh something that was bringing back a lot of memories for me, and I'll I'll get to what uh it was in just a second, but I I uh had this vivid memory of when my uh grandfather passed away. Uh I didn't know him super well, and I was digging through all of his stuff one day after he had passed away, and I found a bunch of his old letters that he had written to his wife, and I combed through them and I started reading them, and I was like, oh my gosh, I know this man so well, and we're actually so similar. And even though his world events were so different than mine, yeah, there were so many questions he was struggling with uh that are the same ones that I'm struggling with. Yeah. Um, and I was just shocked at how human all of a sudden my grandfather became. And somehow I became so close with him just because I I began to know him on a much deeper level than um I could have ever as a kid. I remember having the exact same thing happen to me when I read Augustine's Confessions for the first time. Um and uh when he told the story about being a teenager and delighting in doing evil things just for evil's sake. I was like, how did you know me so well? That is exactly what I mean, even down to what you were calling, uh I forget what he we named his band of friends, uh, you know, whatever he named the boys, uh every everything was so familiar to me. Uh you talked a little bit about um getting to know C.S. Lewis a bit more and getting to study in his rooms. Uh you had a kind of a uh an encounter in it with the the communion of the saints in the way. Uh could you talk a little bit more about that of of having this sort of achaemonism that doesn't just go horizontally with the people that we're in dialogue with currently, but also in the past.

SPEAKER_04 48:09

Yeah. Um phenomenal. Um yeah, it was it was a real privilege, really. Um I got to I got to be at the kilns uh on in uh 20 2013, 2014. So the 50th anniversary of his passing, actually. And so there were a number of really cool events that were happening. Um and uh just got to meet a lot of really great people. Um uh got to meet his uh his stepson, for example, um, Douglas Gresham, and um got to meet amazing C.S. Lewis scholars, um uh people who had written uh written about him, and then just people who uh were scholars and we're we're intellectuals over at Oxford who uh just enjoyed enjoyed his works, right? Um and uh so that was that was really incredible. And it was fun getting to read uh Chronicles of Narnia for the first time actually in his house. I had read his like more serious stuff before that, but just being like, I gotta read the fun children's literature too. Um and uh just uh you know, and getting to learn more about the house itself, um uh his place in it, um just as I was giving tours and such, uh because like because Oxford is a country place, it was not being bombed as much during World War II. And so his house was one of the places where children went to to shelter from the firebombings of London. So when um when the uh when the the lady gives the tour to uh what's what's the pevancies, yeah, uh gives them the tour and says, Don't be disturbing the master. Well, C.S. Lewis is the master, and children had gotten that to her, right? Um and so he uh he was there and uh his house was providing shelter um for children. And he actually wrote the Chronicles of Narnia as a way to help them get out of the present uh and sort of go into Narnia, uh, go into this uh this fantasy land that was very much apart from World War II and to meet Aslan, to meet Christ there in Aslan in a different world. Um uh but one of the rooms that he wrote in uh was underneath the room that the children typically stayed in. It's called the children's room. And um Mrs. Moore, uh one of the women who lived in the house, uh, she uh everything was rationed, obviously. It's World War II. Uh so she made, and you know, he wants the children to be healthy too. So she would only give them a certain amount of cookies um when it was time for cookies. Um uh and C.S. Lewis would have his, you know, tea with cookie or whatever while he's writing in the room below. And they started this like pulley system where they would put a bucket in front of him uh in the window that he was writing in, and he would like throw a couple of extra, you know, pastries or cookies and they would pull it up. And it was sort of like a way to get just a little bit of extra sweets. So um, yeah, just like little stories like that was really, really fun to learn and experience. And then just, I mean, getting to meet Walter Hooper, his uh his personal secretary, who was a very good friend of his, um uh, and Aiden Mackey, who's uh a good friend of Walter Hooper, who happens to be the one of the foremost authorities on Chesterton. And so uh Mr. Mackey was in his 90s um and enjoyed a good glass of port. And so one of the ways I would get him to have conversations with me was I'd get like a good port when he was gonna come by and like we'd have a little glass and talk Chesterton. So that was fun. That's great.

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Well, we need to go back into kind of your personal story more too. So you're at you're at Pepperdine, you're um you're getting into you you you've done the great books program. When you went to Pepperdine, well, I mean, why'd you go to Pepperdine in the first place? And and and was that a different reason than when you left Pepperdine? Great question.

SPEAKER_04 52:09

Great question. So uh I did what all good Arizona boys want to do, and that is go to Southern California for uh for college. And um, I mean, the location was ideal, right there on the beach. Uh surfing was a P credit, you know, all the different things that you would expect, right? Um, but the main reason why is uh it it act the the I actually went to the school with a church camp. Uh and so it's just seeing that this school was invested in uh actual spiritual formation. Um and it was it's the school that was that's that's connected with the denomination that I grew up in that took its its academics seriously. I mean, one of their other statements is that uh, you know, the Christian faith demands the highest standards of academic excellence. Um, and I loved that. Uh again, just sort of thirsting for, in the midst of like a public school education that said you can't, you know, bring your uh your faith to bear on your education, and also uh a denomination where oftentimes you were discouraged from bringing your education to bear on your faith, getting to actually like go to a university that somehow grew out of that tradition and believes that they go together beautifully was extremely attractive to me. And it did not disappoint. Um, and the professors there were just equally committed to their faith and their intellect, and in a great way where it it actually you didn't have to be a Christian to go there. Um there was kind of a missional aspect to it. So the professors were deeply committed to their faith, but any students could go. Um and so it was there if you want it, but you don't have to. Um I found that really, really inviting. And uh, and so yeah, then discovering that, I wanted to go deeper in that, uh, went to Yale Divinity School and got to spend a lot of time with the Rivendell Institute at Yale. And the Rivendale Institute is this incredible uh evangelical uh research institute that's registered with Yale University, uh, that is all about human flourishing, uh, does a great job with interfaith dialogue, um, and just really good spiritual formation and trying to have really great Christian professors at Yale uh teach Christian graduate students how to then do the same and be great Christian professors and great researchers. And so uh it was really just seeing those things come together. I didn't even know classical Christian existed at this time.

SPEAKER_02 54:34

Uh even at Yale?

SPEAKER_04 54:36

No.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 54:37

So I didn't know I didn't know about classical education. I didn't know about classical. Even though you were just experienced, but I was doing it. So there was a very entrepreneurial approach to it in many ways. Um Pepper and I didn't have a program in the classics. We just kind of my professors and I kind of cobbled that together uh and it was fun. Um uh and then yeah, and then after that, that spent spent time at Oxford doing the uh masters in Laantique and Byzantine Studies because wanted to see how those things came together with the fall of the Roman Empire. And it was only after that that I was like, I should double check that I really like teaching because I'm clearly headed on that trajectory. Um uh I had taught a course with Pepperdine in London, but you know, actual like middle school and high school teaching, right? And so uh I had heard of Great Hearts Academies just as an Arizonan who was graduating in 2007. Great Hearts had started a few years earlier, and um thought, you know, I'd I'd love to love to see about getting a job there and working there for a few years, maybe going on doing a PhD after that. Um and uh uh it was just awesome, uh sort of learning how to teach from people who knew how to teach well, uh, which is not something that uh college or grad school often teaches you. And so uh that was the first time when I actually like learned that there's this thing called classical education, that it exists on a K-12 level, um, and that uh it because I had really been focusing on like history, theology and bringing those together, but just Great Hearts helped me sort of expand that to um to literature and philosophy and just like the whole Western tradition as a whole, uh music, all of it, right? Um and so uh that was a delight.

SPEAKER_02 56:22

And then um Well I have a question there when well I mean maybe two. So when you went to Pepperdine, you had you'd said that in high school you were really interested in kind of science math. Yeah. Had you thought you were gonna go study about Pepperdine? And then I attempted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:39

Yeah, no, it was like a junior high dance. Um, I really liked chemistry, and chemistry did not like me back. Um, and so I ran to theology.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Nice. Nice. Yeah. Okay, yeah. Cause I was wondering, you know, you liked you like this thing, and then now you're you're able divinity.

SPEAKER_04 56:57

I I totally, I totally had it all planned out. Like, okay, so I want to discern calling. And, you know, I like math, I like science, and you know, people people really need medicine more than more more than most things. So like I'll I'll be a I'll work for like doctors without borders or something. And, you know, especially in developing nations, there's a need for people who really know how to do like dentistry well, and also optometry and ophthalmology. I don't really like teeth.

SPEAKER_05 57:21

So, so I'll be an ophthalmologist and it'll be great. Uh and and just realized in first semester general chemistry that that's not who I am at all. Like I had discerned what I thought was the ideal calling. It just wasn't my calling.

SPEAKER_01 57:36

I there's something so ironic to me about the fact that the beginning of your story with classical education was being introduced as a seventh grader and asking, well, does it have to be boring in order for it to be classical? But now something has happened to you where you're literally about to take on this endeavor to go torture little kids with this awfulness and like teach classical education to uh to to young people, uh, expose them to classical literature. So at what point was there this shift of oh no, this actually can be accessible somehow to people of all ages? When did you start to believe in that?

SPEAKER_04 58:19

Um a great question. Uh in stages. So, first, great hearts helped me to see ways that that could be done in an age-appropriate way, right? Um, and uh because I felt really confident in my ability to do it with higher ed, with teaching as an adjunct professor with Pepperdine, but um was a little less sure how to do it with middle school or high school, and uh certainly didn't have any clue how to do it with elementary. Um uh but realizing that there were people who were having those conversations deeply and well about who should read what, read what when was extremely encouraging uh and really great. Um uh and so uh that was sort of when I was like, yeah, I feel like even a kindergartner could begin to study classically. Like they're not gonna read Plato, they might play with Plato. Uh, but you know, they could begin a curriculum that could prepare them to one day read Plato, right? Um and trying to not burn them out early uh in that, trying to take the long view of it. Um and just kind of coming to the conclusion uh eventually that it was, you know, extremely delightful and fun uh to get to study these things. Um and uh and then eventually discovering for the first time the existence of classical Christian curricula uh classical Christian education. Um not long ago, really. I mean, like seven-ish years ago was when I first realized that there was I knew there was Christian schools, I knew there were classical schools, but I didn't know there were classical Christian. So uh that was a fun thing um uh to get to experience and to all of a sudden become an academic dean who's launching a high school where my job was literally to write the curriculum that would integrate these two worlds and in this summative, you know, uh uh way with high school, uh with ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grade, um just was an incredible, uh, incredible experience. Um and and trying to do that in a way that uh connects with a high school student's lived experience, right? So we were in the city of Atlanta, so we used uh we we called it our city as a classroom um uh seminar. So we would we would actually go on a field trip every week, every Friday, we'd go to a new spot in the city of Atlanta um and really go delve deeply into again the concept of integration. Um, because our goal is to uh to bring the walls down. Uh if people say that classical education is a bubble, they're they're incorrect on that. Um, elementary education can and should be a bubble. Um uh there is a protectiveness right there to young children. Uh, but in high school the walls come down. Uh and I think that as high school students experience their city, as they experience their literature, as they experience their heritage and um uh sports, the arts, all of it, that ends up creating worldview, right? That ends up creating a situation where they realize what you've realized, which is this isn't closed off at all. Um and uh this isn't some sort of huddled up remnant of scared people. Uh this is quite the opposite. Um uh and uh I mean that's that's I think the main thing that makes people have ownership right of their own faith and uh faith retention and the fact that God has no grandchildren, right? Um so uh it's it's when people have an unmediated encounter with the classics for themselves, uh, when they experience their city for themselves, when they experience a piece of art for themselves, a piece of music for themselves. Um and I just I just find that classical education facilitates that encounter more than other approaches tend to do.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:08

Why did you get into school leadership? What what was that call like?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:14

Well, I think the more dramatic transformation was from higher ed to K-12 uh first.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:20

I had planned on Yeah, which you keep saying, like uh I I needed to know if I could teach, so I went to go to middle school and high school, which I don't know many grad students who ever who ever think that. Well I think they think like, all right, never have to be. I'll never have to go back to that. You know?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:38

I don't know. I just the the best professors of mine at Pepperdine were amazing teachers. And I had a great, great teachers in public school who were just phenomenal at actually connecting with students. Um and so I wanted to be someone who wasn't having my own wonderful experience, the front of my lecture hall talking about the literature when the students were bored to tears, right? And uh, you know, I just I felt like actually teaching in in middle school and high school would be the best way to learn how to do that well. And so uh yeah, ended up um uh ended up doing that, uh, then went for a PhD and uh in the midst of the PhD program at Emory, learned that Christian classical education existed and um just fell in love with it, fell in love with that existing on a K-12 level, uh, the way that soul formation could take place over time uh with that. Um and uh never applied for a single academic job, never applied to be a professor anywhere because just was blown away by by this K-12 incarnation. Uh in many ways, it's almost as if it's being more faithfully done on the K-12 level because there's such a focus on integration. Um, and it's like only a few amazing institutions on that are doing that on a higher ed level. Um, so that was one reason that I kind of began to go the K-12 route. Um and then uh the other reason was uh it's practical on a K-12 level. A classical education is practical. When I have students come to me at uh at Pepperdine after a Humanities 111 course that I teach and say, hey, I think I'm considering this for a major, I get excited with them. I tell them, hey, this is a great thing to do. I love it. But I also know in the back of my mind that they need to count the costs. And we do have that talk. Um and so I try to get them in touch with the right people to think of what a smart double major they could do and how this how they could go about this, because they do have to be career ready on some level as they're leaving college. I do believe that the humanities accomplishes that, but I know that the rest of the world doesn't think that way, right? For now. For now. And so I um I recognize that there is an opportunity cost for a student taking Latin in college instead of computer science or something like that. At K-12, that tension doesn't know does not exist. MIT loves seeing that there are there's this well-rounded education, that students are studying different languages, that they're studying all these different uh curricula. So um so there's a practicality actually to doing classical education on a K-12 level that was just so deeply wonderful. Um and just realizing that there was a network of of schools and and a school of thought within education that actually believed in, you know, the humanities mattering and the classics actually being something that matters. Um uh so that ended up being really attractive. The call to leadership was uh less dramatic, but more unexpected. Um and uh because I had really figured teaching was the way to go. Um but I had such a great time launching the high school for heritage prep preparatory school of Georgia and serving as their academic dean and helping to lead the high school team and the department chair. And just I was lucky because I was working with two heads of schools who a headmaster and a president who either had like 20 years of leadership experience uh as a as a head of school or was used to uh you know had had been a former chief of staff for two governors and was used to running the state of Georgia. So people who actually like truly knew leadership and knew how to do it well, which I did not know at all. Um and just realizing, wow, this is actually really fun. Uh and this is this is actually, really frankly, the application of the classical tradition in so many ways of rhetoric and leadership and institution building uh and vision casting. I mean, there's a reason that for much of world history, um, Western European nations had their future leaders study the classics. It actually prepares you for leadership in a brilliant way. Right. You get to know people. And so um, and then I just was also blessed by getting to see to get to see um uh teacher support within education done exceptionally well. Um, seeing that done well at Heritage Um helped me to see, oh, administration can actually be awesome. It can be something that that makes this whole project go from possible to really within reach, right? Uh, you know, and in higher ed, I had seen it not done as well, right? Where you sort of knew who the who the teachers were by the hunted look in their eyes when administrators were around. And so the opportunity to get to do leadership uh in K-12 education, in classical education, um, and to do it in a way that is hopefully helpful and good uh and diverts our our money and our development to the right things and the right projects and uh focuses our philanthropy on the right initiatives. Um uh I just feel like when that happens, the sky's the limit. And just as a historian, all the great movements institutionalize, right? And all the great philosophies uh systematize in some way or form or fashion. Uh and so, first of all, it's inevitable. Uh and so I'd like to actually be uh one of the people who can be a part of that conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:17

The Christians had to become the man in some. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:20

And so I figure, you know what? Like, um, and there are things I miss. Like, I very much miss getting to do seminars with high school students. Don't get to do that near as frequently as I as I used to. Um, but uh I get to have other types of seminars with other types of people on other types of concepts. And I get to do so as one who has that Christian classical background and hopefully brings that to bear on leadership. So then there's that extra dimension of integration.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:48

We've only got about 15 minutes left, so I don't know how we're gonna cover all this ground in that time.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

Do we even have that? Where are we on top?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:59

I mean, I say 15 minutes because I want 15 minutes more.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:04

Um I think we've got five. Yeah. So no, no, this is good, and this has been wonderful. And as we say with all of our guests, uh we're gonna need to do a part two because there's maybe that's all season two is right. Yeah, we've we've um we've foregone the three to four hour uh long form podcast, but we understand why people do that because it's just at the hour mark that you really start you know digging into the the next layer. But so I I'd I'd love to just kind of ask the last question as um the last part of what we do in the podcast, which is how has this transformation now allowed you to pour into others in the work that you're doing?

SPEAKER_04 1:09:53

That's a great question. Um I think it's just clarified calling. Um and it's helped to um to create a community of of I mean I will say like contemporary saints, sort of a riff on Hebrews 12, I guess. But but but really though, I mean that's that's what's so nice about Hebrews 11 is that you realize that you're a part of a of a group that has existed throughout time, right? Uh and you don't have to suffer from that Elijah syndrome where you feel like you're the only one at all. Um and uh I I'm blessed that that's been pretty obvious to me by the presence of a lot of great mentors for a long for for most of my life. Um, but there's just something special about classical education. And I think that the thing that's most special is that you uh you just get to meet lots of wonderful people who are engaged in this shared work from a multiplicity of very different perspectives for a whole bunch of different reasons. Uh, and yet there's this shared, this shared work that we get to engage in with one another that's really energizing and fun and inviting. Um uh and I think part of that is that we're sort of on the vanguard of a new thing that's happening in the United States. Um, and so it's not been overly systematized, not been overly developed, overly defined. And I'm sure there will be a, you know, a season in our history where we need to sort of dial that back a little bit and figure, figure out how to reclaim that heart of things. Um, but there just seems to be a thrilling combination of intellectual depth, of spiritual commitment, of like human joy, um, uh, of creativity and of like good, hard-nosed business and leadership and finance that's like just coming together in this movement of classical schools, um, rather they'd be independent or a part of different networks. Um and that is such a exciting thing to be a part of. And the fact that that the sort of raison debt and the whole existence of that movement is actually predicated on um the development of young minds and souls is so refreshing. Like it would be cool enough if this business were focused on um, you know, some like means of production or, you know, like a service or something um within the some sort of sector of the economy. But the fact that it's actually like focused on children and and young adults and helping them to discern who they are in the world um in conversations with some of the greatest minds that have ever existed, uh, is just a really exciting thing to be a part of.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:45

That's great. Well, thank you, Anthony, for being being on the furros. Ryan, will you close this out?

SPEAKER_01 1:12:51

Yeah. Uh thank you so much for your time. It's uh I think this is how it always goes, where it's just a little bit of sadness at the end that uh okay, we gotta wrap this up. We'll have to get part two uh figured out, ironed out. Um, but I am really appreciative. I do feel like when we get into the depths of the conversations, I still feel the the spirit of Lewis stepping into the room with us. Augustine is stepping into the room with us, the early church. Um, so thank you taking us back there. Um, and thank you for another awesome episode of the Furos Podcast.