How Classical Education Made a Convert Without Preaching a Word w/ Nikhil Jandhyala | The Furrows

Nikhil Jandhyala came to classical education as a public-school kid raised on two faiths—Hinduism American capitalism—and left it a Catholic teacher who now hands the same gift to his own students. Ryan Klopak and Alex Julian trace that transformation with him: the sixth-grade natural-philosophy class where "nature acts for an end" first cracked his world open, the ninth-grade Euclid teacher who convinced him that truth is worth pursuing for its own sake, and the long, winding road to conversion.

What's in This Episode:

• How a single truth from a sixth-grade natural-philosophy class—"nature acts for an end and it does nothing in vain"—became the first crack in a materialist worldview, and what it means to teach students to observe nature rather than memorize textbooks about it
• The ninth-grade Euclid teacher who ran geometry like "an intellectual street fight," and why Euclid may be the only real natural science a student gets in high school
• Why middle school is where American anti-intellectualism hits hardest, and what classical schools can (and can't) do about the drift toward treating learning as mere utility
• Reading Lord of the Flies and The Voyage of the Dawn Treader as maps of the human soul
• The conversion at the center of it all: idolizing Hitchens and Maher, a barefoot pilgrimage in India, church bells with no church in sight, and the friend whose argument finally pointed him toward the Church

Resources:

• Euclid's Elements
• The Voyage of the Dawn Treader by C.S. Lewis
• Lord of the Flies by William Golding
• Classical Learning Test (CLT)
• Arcadia Education

Chapters:

• 00:00: Welcome and meeting Nikhil Jandhyala
• 01:47: Before classical education—India, Hinduism, and the dollar bill
• 05:02: Sixth grade and the first truth: "nature acts for an end"
• 15:42: The dividing line between faith and reason
• 21:41: Middle school, deans, and the anti-intellectual pull
• 31:15: The books that stick with you
• 33:21: Lord of the Flies as a map of the soul
• 36:55: Eustace, the dragon, and the mercy of Aslan
• 42:03: High school and the Euclid teacher who changed everything
• 55:38: Atheism, a pilgrimage, and church bells with no church

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education. 

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome to the Furrows Podcast. My name is Ryan Klopak and I'm joined here with Alex Julian. Uh we are two teammates on the search team over at Arcadia Education where we serve classical, Christian, and Catholic schools across the country. And today we are joined on the Furos Podcast by one of our favorite colleagues, favorite teachers, Nikil Jandiala. Nikhil is somebody that we uh have had the pleasure of working with together at one of the classical schools out in Phoenix. Uh before he left us to go join another school out in Houston. Uh he is one of the deepest thinkers, uh, one of the greatest philosophers, one of the most beautiful head of hair that we've ever seen in our time. Uh and so here on the Furrows podcast, uh, what we're doing is we're exploring the stories of teachers that have been transformed by classical education and are in that uh that ongoing journey of transforming others through that same mean. So, Nikhil, thank you so much for joining us today and welcome to the furrows. Thanks so much for having me. This is uh I'm really looking forward to this. Um likewise. We've we've been uh we've been looking forward to this one for a long time. The long time coming, that's right. So you you have one of the coolest stories of anyone that I know. Um and we're gonna dig into that a little bit. But before we start going into that uh that transformation, let's just start with who was Nikhil before he joined uh this this classical education world. Uh well uh just just who were you?

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Gosh, it uh it's been uh long time, I feel like, since I've thought of it. So forgive me if I'm going all over the place, but uh before I was in classical, I was uh a student at a public school. Um I wasn't uh born here. Um I was born in India, my family moved, and um uh when we moved here, we uh um we moved as uh Hindus. And um when we settled here, if uh my parents' religion wasn't Hinduism, it certainly was uh money, the dollar bill. Um so uh they had a lot of faith in that and uh they were very busy people, and so they put me in uh public school throughout uh my uh elementary school years. And then uh in my town, I lived in a really small town, it was about a uh just a mile uh long, just two exits, um in Arizona, and uh just at the time there was a classical school opening, and uh they were taking a lottery for it. And uh my dad went and he put my name in and I was picked uh for the lottery for um this classical school and it was a great arts academy. And so when I um uh when I started middle school, sixth grade, I joined um a classical school for the first time.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Um yeah. So you said you had it sounds like you kind of had a syncretistic worldview blend of Hindu and American dream. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Uh what was that like?

SPEAKER_03 3:47

Yeah, oh my gosh. It was uh it was definitely confusing for me at the time, but I was able to uh reconcile it in a lot of ways. I mean, ultimately, as a child, I just had a lot of faith in my parents. What they did, what they raised me, the ideas that they raised me with are what I believed in. And for me, it was going to uh places of worship, the Hindu temple, uh on you know, certain auspicious days, um, on Saturdays, and it was also being told and uh you know a number of times about looking for a career and a job. And ultimately, you know, when they talked about us moving here, it was uh under the um supposition that we were here for a financial purpose. Um and so it was it wasn't actually confusing for me until I started learning the truth that I did as a student, where I started to question um some of the um underlying notions that uh that my parents had.

unknown 4:58

You know.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

Okay. So you you start going to this classical school, uh, one of these Great Hearts schools. Uh yeah, what what were some of the moments where that meta-narrative you were given starts to get pushed up against?

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Well, I I just want to start with this actually. I cannot, you gave me such an introduction that I feel so unworthy for because every single part of any reason why I'm good is entirely attributed in some way, I think, to my teachers and uh and ultimately Providence. I cannot emphasize that point. This school that I went to was, I think, one of the most um incredible schools ever. When I looked back as a teacher, um I I'm still so mesmerized by it. I mean, every single person in the faculty and in the administration was entirely devoted to the pursuit of truth. Um, but one of the most formative classes for me in sixth grade, uh, I took a natural philosophy um class. Actually, recently, this is really funny. I uh saved a lot of my sixth grade work um just to look back at it. And uh I was looking back uh um at some of the work, and I just can't I just seen this big handwriting that I have, something on you know, Aristotle's Four Elements or something like that, uh defending it too. Uh you know, it is just so funny to see someone like a sixth grader um even thinking about that. Um but in that natural philosophy course, uh, you're asking about you know these these moments, that natural science course, um, there was one truth that stuck with me for the and I know it will stick with me for the rest of my life, which is that nature acts for an end and it does nothing in vain. Um that was I think the first truth that defined my life as a student that really changed my my view of the world.

SPEAKER_05 7:09

Nico, what was that like doing public school K-5 and then having that experience in sixth grade?

SPEAKER_03 7:18

You know, it was it was interesting because uh I think this is a phenomenon that happened with a lot of uh sort of classical charters. Um we were in a little rented out space in the middle of a strip mall, and our you know, recess time or lice seemed a recess time was in this little breezeway, this little alleyway. I mean, it was so small, um and the hallways were so narrow. I came from such a big place where I didn't have a uh real friend group. I didn't have a you know a place, I wasn't talking to my teachers in any deep and meaningful way. I would go to school, I remember I would just do the classes and I'd come home. Um but this is I think one of the first moments where I actually talked with my teachers after school extensively in you know in classes. Um I felt comfortable asking questions, and so for me, I was uh I felt recognized. You know, I felt like I was uh doing something more serious um and more worthwhile.

SPEAKER_05 8:29

That's great. Um were there any other elements of that sixth grade year that you remember uh and did a contrast you know, now looking back, did you feel the contrast in any other ways to kind of who you were in K5 or you know, just as before being 11 and then who you have started to become moving forward from there?

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Yeah, you know, it's it's interesting. Um the other aspect, if it wasn't in that natural science class, it was the fact that um, and I mean this is something I uh I think I even see now as a distinction, you know, as a classical teacher uh, you know, looking at some of the ways uh some public schools uh teach and some of their curricula. Um I hope this doesn't sound you know cliche anyway, but I just in at that younger age, I was just not uh I was neither interested in learning because uh of the kind of the way in which subjects were taught to me um and from the um overemphasis of monetary gain from my parents. Um and I was just not asked to think about uh ideas for myself. Uh this is actually a sixth grade, but uh later on in middle school I remember even the moment sitting down in uh uh a seminar format for the first time, uh that's something that I had never experienced before. But uh it uh it just felt so dignified to me. I felt like I was an equal, you know, in many ways. And uh that felt really good at the time. And uh that's I think another memory that I have of uh that I'll always associate with classical education is having this dignity to talk about ideas.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

So if I'm understanding correctly, education was boring to you before because you're just being downloaded a bunch of facts basically so that you can get whatever certification or understanding or knowledge so that I can make money. So was that idea of making money just not interesting to you? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

Or was it just shallow? Well, this is where it sort of gets interesting because even in middle school, even though I had these inklings of seeing what I was doing um was worthwhile, I actually didn't uh change my view about what the purpose of education ultimately was until uh high school.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

Actually, so I don't know if uh you know if I can uh transition to there or uh yeah um well before you go there, is there anything else that's formative in middle school? Um uh like whether Actually, let's let's dive back into science class real quick because uh apparently that idea of seeing that the natural world has some sort of meaning or causation behind it is really blowing your mind. Uh, can you talk about how like what were some of the things that started to reveal that nature actually has an end and a purpose, and why was that so groundbreaking for you?

SPEAKER_03 11:56

My gosh. It uh you know it's hard to say, and partially I'm sort of thinking about this anachronistically because um in my first and sorry, this is kind of jumping ahead but back, I promise I won't stay too long. Uh the first year that I taught was at a classical school, and I taught the same natural science course that I received as a student, and and part of I think my memory is is being obscured by that uh you know experience that I had. Uh, but I think what it was was that I even the way that it was taught, I was never actually asked to observe nature as such. Um I was given a lot of textbooks, uh a lot of handouts, and uh, you know, it was like uh um that's my memory of public, you know, your standard public school. Um this is one of the first times I was just given the the strangest classes. Uh given etymology, you know, writing out Greek in uh or Latin in science. Uh we uh were asked to memorize uh Newton's three laws from his Principia in Latin. And I thought, man, like what a strange thing to do for a bunch of sixth graders. But I can, you know, I still remember parts of that. And uh I don't know, maybe I'm maybe at the time uh I'm thinking I would thought about it differently than I do now. But at the time I just thought, this is really cool. Like I'm doing something that's more adult-like uh than I'm doing uh when I'm being fed this information. Um there's actually a great line from the manual that we used uh from the teacher that uh uh I had at the time, who uh I really owe, I mean, a lot too, uh, but he has in his introduction to his his Nature of Science manual, it says uh, you know, he's writing it out and he's he's obviously building out the manual through his experience. And uh he says this line that's like when you treat students uh uh with a certain level of respect and hold them to a higher standard, then they come to a higher standard. This is a truth that we understood teaching students real material rather than giving them uh digested you know information to memorize. And that is that is such a true experience that uh that I think I had there.

SPEAKER_00 14:32

So was it it sounds like everything just got got dumped down for you before, and there is nothing mysterious or uh worth investigating. That's changed.

SPEAKER_03 14:48

But this was still, I guess, the conflict. Uh in my home life, I still was a practicing Hindu at the time. I would go to school and I would learn things about Aristotle and nature and the ancient world, and and it was remarkable, and I felt dignified and respected. But but there was a part of me, a large part of me, still in middle school, where I uh went home and did the things that I was actually supposed to do. You know, in quotes. Uh and there was still a divide that was that was growing there now between home life and school life that that wasn't there before. I actually didn't experience that as much in public school, um, but I started to experience that uh in a classical school.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

So what's the dichotomy? So you're you're diving more into a natural world or a natural philosophy, understanding that uh the natural world is ordered towards some sort of a purpose. The home life or Hinduism isn't meshing with that. Why? Like what's the ordering of the cosmos there?

SPEAKER_03 16:04

Well, maybe it's something like this. I think the truth that pairs well with Nature Acts for an end that was also emphasized time and time again was that nature is intelligible. Um that means we can, you know, we have to think about the things that are around us and uh try to uh understand them for their own sake and act accordingly uh when it pertains to our own natures. But thinking for yourself and acting according to it, I thought was directly opposed to the life of uh faith. In the Hindu faith, you go and you believe the different myths and the stories that are told to you and uh you act according to that. And why do you act according to that? Because it says so. Um and so I think the opposition there between the school and the home life was uh precisely the distinction that I had drawn, I think falsely, I'm not sure, but between thinking and faith.

SPEAKER_00 17:11

I wonder how many of us actually just start with that default where we're given the myth at home. Because what you're describing is um yeah I I hear this a lot with people who grew up Christian, who grew up Jewish, uh, grew up secular, um, and there's just like I I was given I was given a story to live out of, but it didn't seem like it was transposing onto the world that I was experiencing, and there has to be some sort of connection or reconciliation between the two. Um what when you think of like the the metadarrative or the the cosmological structure of Hinduism, was it competing with what you were finding in science?

SPEAKER_03 18:06

Yeah, I think it was at the time for me. And I think part of the evidence of that, and I think again, uh this is something that's later in uh the story of my life as a student, is at the end of my high school uh career, uh my uh uh senior thesis was precisely trying to reconcile Hindu faith and uh and platonic philosophy. You know, I was trying to bring these two worlds together that I I thought were so opposed. So I think middle school, if I had to summarize, you know, the um I guess the essence of it for me, it was the the beginnings of opposition between faith and reason. Um that's where that I guess started. Being able to think clearly for oneself and and having an obligation to do so put me at odds with uh my life as a faithful Hindu.

SPEAKER_05 19:07

Do you think kind of to Ryan's point, do you think that that was happening for a lot of kids at the school? Um I mean they didn't have the same background, but because middle school is that time where uh reason is coming to the forefront. Like nature actually is designed us such that at this time of our lives we're thinking about all the things we've learned as children kind of uncritically and now saying, okay, is that true over here? Is that true over here? Is that true over here? I'm trying to create a coherent world, right? And then we're questioning it. Um so did you see that curriculum working on your peers at all?

SPEAKER_03 19:53

I know that's kind of a hard thing to Well, you know, it's it's hard because on the one hand, there were a lot of students who didn't buy into what was going on. Um they wanted to be there like it was any other school. That effect didn't um yeah, I guess the that that truth or those truths that you learn in in classical education didn't have an effect on them. Um but to some it did, and to some it did pose a problem. Uh the demographic of the school that I went to, the religious demographic's interesting because uh in the town that I grew up in, uh you have a lot of uh Mormons, a lot of Protestants, a few Catholics, and you know, amongst the students who are there are also a religious agnostic and atheist. Um The sense of wonder for a lot of them was there. We were a tight-knit group, and the teachers did an excellent job of making sure that we uh became that way. But there were only, I think, uh, there were a handful throughout those years that that that stuck to to the life of you know the the classical education student, I guess. They're the the ones that actually bought in. Um I but it's hard for me to tell, I guess. I don't really know if uh the kinds of effects that it had. Again, I I can't really say much. I my memory of middle school is so long ago, I only have these little stories here and there um of the effect that it had on me, um, but not so much on on others.

SPEAKER_05 21:41

Well, I want to go into a couple more potential stories. So um yeah, let's start here. Ryan and I have both been deans of middle school. I mean, deans in general, but when you're a dean of an upper school, you're basically a dean of middle school. Um And I think middle school gets a bad rap, and in some ways, for justified reasons, it's like this is a place that's filled with 12 and 13 year olds, you know. Um, and so why is ninth grade better? Because it's not filled with 12 and 13 year olds. Um, but but yeah, so for you in that space, in that kind of smaller, more tight-knit space, uh with this education model, did you experience a lot of the things that middle schoolers experience with kids just kind of being nasty to each other because they can now? They realize like they have their words have power and um you know the kind of clicks and the drama and all that. What was that like in a classical school for you?

SPEAKER_03 22:49

Yeah, you know, it's funny. It's uh that um that phenomenon I feel like is so universal that even classical education can't solve the best thing sometimes. Because nature has an end, right?

SPEAKER_05 23:03

Yeah, it does whatever the 13-year-old end is or means is towards that end.

SPEAKER_03 23:09

But I will say this. I mean, there were there are people I think that go through middle school and slowly, I'm sure you guys observe this much more than I have as deans, which is uh there's a sort of some students just over a period of time in their middle school career and then before they get into high school just realize, yeah, this is just not gonna work out at this school. And uh they leave. And I think I experienced a lot of that. I my class was uh so big, and then it slowly started um condensing. But I gotta say, I didn't experience uh I I did here and there, and that's actually funny. Uh one of the divides was I and uh this isn't like a you know a big point or anything, but I guess I remember it as a middle schooler. Um I do remember being the only uh Hindu student. Uh, you know, and that is definitely uh that was an interesting experience for me because uh there were a lot of students who were going to youth groups and who were Christian, you know, and uh they were talking. Um I mean, even in some of the classes it gets brought up, you know, a biblical story, and I had absolutely no idea, you know, what these biblical stories were at all. Um so to me they were so foreign, so that made me feel a little uh distant, I think, from the experience in some ways. Uh but uh yeah, I I think that's yeah, it's just it's uh but I didn't experience it as much, I guess. And part of it is a testament to the deans that I had. Um again, I can't speak to what how the deans dealt with the other students, but I remember one time when I got uh an after school detention when they still did that sort of thing, you know? After school detention, I just remember uh sitting there in that room with my hands flat on my table for about an hour. And if I so much as moved, I would uh I would be, you know, given an extra five minutes. But that that uh um you know experience really changed me and made me really not want to do it again. But in the same breath, I remember this the dean um sitting me down in his office and me sitting across from him and uh and talking to me like a uh like uh rational, partially subrational human being, you know. He was sitting there trying to reason with me about what it is that I was trying to do and why what I was doing was wrong. Uh, which I think it's interesting how in these schools, classical schools, even uh the nature of classical school being thinking for yourself, you know, it bleeds into the life of a dean in that way. Which I'm sure, you know, as being deans, you guys have probably had many conversations of that sort. For sure.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

But not all of them have the crack in the door of starting to think for themselves by the time they leave eighth grade. A lot of them have that come much later. But it so it sounds like that that crack in the door is there, uh, which is starting to prime you for high school. Um so is high school when everything starts to really kick into high gear and I don't think we can get there yet.

SPEAKER_05 26:39

Not yet. No, I'm gonna keep us in middle school for a little bit. Uh keep going. You know, no one wants to stay in middle school. We're going to. Okay, yeah, yeah. Maybe two other things. One, what uh there's this really strong pull of anti-intellectualism in this country. Um, and it seems like middle school is where that really hits hard, I think, for a lot of kids. It's like you can be a kid, you can really love learning, but then in middle school, uh, I think at a lot of schools, um the cool kids are not the kids who love the books.

SPEAKER_01 27:23

That's true.

SPEAKER_05 27:24

In in in this country. And it's so interesting because not every country is that way. Um I remember at one of the classical schools I was at, we had a student who was here from Scandinavia just for a couple years, and he felt, and I'm sure there's plenty of different types in every country. But he said that no, a lot of kids by 13, um, especially the the boys, just they took their studies seriously because why wouldn't you? It's the marker of future success. Um, but you know, in in our country where uh charisma and athleticism are often more valued than like intellectual prowess or deep thinking or something like that. I think that that shows up in middle school. So what's the whole point? Um I used to love school and then middle school was really where I felt ripped away from from actually enjoying. That's right, you know? Uh and it and it wasn't until I came back as an educator, and I'm sure lots of educators do this, they come back and like heal and recover their intellectualism, you know, as the teacher that that happened. Uh and so, you know, I just went through the it's like the opposite of the experience you had. I had a great K-5 experience at an alternative school, and then went through the motions 6-12, even though I went to some really good schools.

SPEAKER_03 28:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 28:53

Um, so the point is did you feel that anti-intellectual pool at your school in middle school? Or was it different?

SPEAKER_03 29:04

Yeah, I think there were times um when it came up. Uh again, it's so you know, it's so interesting. This this exercise is really interesting because having to dig back into memory without having it obscured by future thoughts are so interesting. Um and one way I know that there was a little bit of anti-intellectualism in me uh was it's funny that you mentioned that uh sorry about coming back to middle school and teaching. I remember when I went back to middle school or when when I taught middle school that first year, uh and I made my return to middle school, and I remember talking to one of my friends who was also teaching there, and uh I said, Oh my gosh, I have to call my middle school teacher and apologize to him. You know, like I just had this deep sense of shame in me. And uh I think there was uh for me, there were some classes that I didn't treat um I don't want to say I didn't treat seriously. Uh I think I want to say I didn't treat uh for lack of a better term, classically. Like math class, for example. I did not uh when I went into math class, I treated it for the longest time uh all throughout my high school, I think, uh, as a class um that was for the sake of like that was the important class. If I did well in that, you know, and I could take it home to my parents, I did, you know, that was gonna be my standard of success. So it it wasn't necessarily a level of anti-intellectualism that I observed, at least in me and my and my friend groups. Um, but what it was was um that phenomenon uh that you know that students often say where it's okay, yeah, we're doing all this fun stuff, but when do we get down to the real stuff, you know, the stuff that'll actually help me in the real world? Um that happened quite a bit.

SPEAKER_05 31:15

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Um, that's really good. And then the the last thing for middle school uh was there a book? You know, I'm a I'm a humanities guy. I mean, I'm not because the liberal arts encompasses all, and so we're all things. But but uh former seminar teacher, I have to ask, what was your favorite book in the middle school?

SPEAKER_03 31:38

You know, it's uh it's funny that you ask, and and this is maybe uh attributes more to my servile nature at the time than my liberal nature. Uh but I like I could not uh read well, you know, like I had no idea how to do that, and I was the quietest person in seminar. I just I was that person that wouldn't talk, that would read, maybe try to read carefully, but I would I would sit there the whole class thinking, I want to say something, but I'm not gonna say it, you know, and then someone else says it. Uh, but the book I actually remember uh really liking and and and I know this because I I would remember taking a lot of notes on it was Chronicles of the Crusades. Which might be a strange choice, but that's the one that's that's in my memory. That's great.

SPEAKER_05 32:34

That's exciting, man. No.

SPEAKER_03 32:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 32:37

There's a lot of good stuff in there. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

That's great. Why that one? I don't know. You know, it's it's funny, it was it was a lot of the notes that were taken. You know, the other one that actually sticks in my mind uh uh a lot though, and this is a sixth grade book, is Wind in the Willows. Yeah. I uh of course, apart from that one chapter in there, we skip, but uh I I remember that book fondly too. Um That's great.

SPEAKER_00 33:06

Go for it, Chief. You you know where you want to go. No, no. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_05 33:09

I I think we've spent a good amount of time in in middle school.

SPEAKER_03 33:14

You know, I gotta ask real quick though, before we move, did you uh did you have a book that you enjoyed teaching most in middle school?

SPEAKER_05 33:21

Oh, great question. I think you think I'll answer. I think so. I I taught eighth grade lit comp. Um and there were there were a lot of good options in there, right? We started with Beowulf. Yeah. Um we used to end with the Hobbit, so it was this interesting thing where it's like start with Anglo-Saxon, end with Anglo-Saxon, do a little Anglo-Saxon in the middle with some Canterbury Tales. Um but but they felt like The Hobbit just wasn't a great eighth grade book. And I I I actually agree. I love The Hobbit, but but not F grade. Um so I would I'd say Lord of the Flies because Okay. I think it gets I think it actually is gets short shrift. Um like the depth of that book, I think gets overlooked by a lot of people. Um yeah, what what do you think?

SPEAKER_02 34:20

Oh my gosh, I totally forgot about Lord of the Flies.

SPEAKER_03 34:23

I uh I that that was actually uh um I really do remember that book, uh reading that book too. Maybe because it's so uh visceral. Yeah, you're right. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

If that's not middle school in a nutshell, I don't know what stories.

SPEAKER_05 34:40

Exactly. And and so, you know, it's brought up a lot, and I think the people who like it and then the people who criticize it, often it's for the wrong reasons. So I'm just gonna throw this out there for anyone who wants to think about this for Lord of the Flies. Um I think it really is about what are our intellectual options in terms of making sense of evil in the world. Um, it's not, you know, a lot of people now are saying, like, well, look, there was a group of boys stranded on an island and they got along just fine. So Lord of the Flies isn't a great book anymore, you know, because that's not actually how we behave. Like, no, that's not the point. The point is that Ralph is uh right, he's the person who thinks civilization is going to save us. We just need order, we need government, we need politics, civilization will save us. Piggy is the person who thinks that science, psychology, right, understanding our nature, that's what's going to save us. And then we'll be fine. And then Simon is the only one who actually the Lord of the Flies speaks to as recognizing who he is because he's the Christ-like figure who knows that it's only God that's going to save you, right? Like that it's only the divine that can save people. We can't pull ourselves out of it. And as soon as he figures that out with the Lord of the Flies and goes to tell the kids who the Lord of the Flies really is, everybody murders him. And then his body is sent out to save holy smokes. You know what I mean? Um man, make me want to read it again. So if you're listening to this, read it again. It's super good. Uh, and then of course, Jack, you can't leave Jack out, but like Jack is the uh the overman, right? The the will to power. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, but there's there's all those representations. And once you see that there's all those representations in there, you realize there's some deep poetry and allusion to each of those ways when when those characters are operating in the novel. So, all right.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

I mean, I can talk about my favorite book, but what's the point? No, no, no. Okay, so I I never got to teach middle school literature. It was just history and math that I taught when I was in uh teaching middle school. But I did teach fifth grade, and they were starting to delve into that uh cave. And I've talked about this with Alex a couple of times, but it was uh the Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Uh where I was I was reading that out loud to my kids for the first time, and uh like the drop start, and it like I I just remember reading it out loud in my head, spinning and realizing, oh, this is this is the whole thing, this is what we're doing. Um have you read it, Nikhil? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 37:45

I haven't thought about it in a long time, but so do you remember the part where Eustace Scrub turns into a dragon?

SPEAKER_03 37:54

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

So that uh Eustace is not one of the uh the original kids of the the stories. He's he's the cousin or whatever, and he's the absolute worst. He whines, he complains, everything's terrible. Uh he's selfish, uh, reflexively rude. He's he's just the worst. And because every decision um is so inwardly bound, he isolates himself from the rest of the group. He follows his passions at every turn, uh, and he comes upon this magical ring in this pile of treasure that was forbidden. He takes it for himself, he idolizes it, and he begins to turn into a dragon. That that uh that ring that he's worshiping gets stuck on him, and as he's turning into a dragon, the bigger that he's getting, the more that it's torturing him. Um and he's in total agony, one, because of the the pain of the thing that's that's bound around him, but also because he's realizing what he's become. Uh, and there's finally for the first time in his life, uh a bit of remorse and a bit of penance, and a bit of realization that uh a dragon is actually a pretty accurate depiction of what he had become and what he had always been. Um and it's at that moment that Aslan finally appears to him. Aslan asks him if he wants to be changed back into a boy. I forget what the wording is. Uh, but he warns him if you want this, it's really gonna hurt. Are you sure you want this? He said, Yeah, I'm I want this, I'm sorry, I'm done. I don't want to be a dragon anymore. So he goes through this cycle of taking his giant lion claws, digging into the hide of the dragon, and tearing the scales off, and then taking him and then dunking him into the water so that it starts to heal, brings him back out, tears into him, and repeats that cycle over and over. The dragon is starting to die out, the boy is starting to come back. Uh, and I just remember that so vividly because there were I remember very clearly being a middle school boy and turning into a dragon. There's yeah, there's there's one particular story that still haunts me. Um and then getting to teach middle school, getting to be a dean of students. I always felt like the kid that was sitting in front of me uh was the kid the boy that was trapped in the dragon's body. Well, not always, but many of the time. Uh, and it was the patient process of stripping it away, knowing he's gonna go back out and come back in, stripping it away another layer, and over time you see the real boy start to emerge. Yeah, um, and I yeah, I just I I can't get that image out of my head. So that's by far my favorite.

SPEAKER_03 41:17

Man, that's a great uh that's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 41:20

I love it. Mikhil, you're a great interviewer, by the way. Good questions. Good questions. We jump on more podcasts. Yeah, that's right. We're on your podcast all of a sudden. That's awesome, guys. I love it. Okay, just just a quick public service announcement. The the Oh hello's have a great song. They're a band, they're a Christian band. They have a great song called The Lament of Eustace Scrub. I had Ryan listen to it the other day. Wow. If you've read Voyage of the Dawn Treader, I mean if you haven't read it, go read it. Now you have two books to read. And then if you've read it, listen to the Oh hellos and the song, and it'll hit you in a really interesting way.

SPEAKER_00 41:58

So yeah. For sure. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:00

All right. So high school, maybe? Okay. We can move on from middle school. All right. I know that took forever, but that's how middle school feels.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Well, we firmly established your placement in the cave. Yeah. Now we've got to struggle our way out. That's right. We're in baby. All right. So what are like the pinpricks of light that's starting to cut through the darkness in high school? Uh, what were some of those uh either those people, people, those people, yeah. Uh teachers, classmates, uh, or moments or books that start to pull you out of the cave.

SPEAKER_03 42:39

High school. What a what a time. It's I think it's interesting, just to preface, I think. I think if middle school for me was the moment when uh the seeds of of thinking for oneself, and then the seeds of that divide between reason and faith uh were being planted, high school I think is really the story of it manifesting in a lot of ways and culminating. Um But I think there's there are um there are a few different areas that uh uh are coming to mind. Uh but I want to just start with this. I mean, if I'm just starting with freshman year, um this if sixth grade I like to think of high school as a new beginning. I feel like a lot of uh you know, middle schoolers who come to high school probably think of it that way too. And uh for me it very much was because if sixth grade the truth that I took away was naturex for an end. Um uh the second teacher that I owe uh nearly everything to was my ninth grade uh Euclid. Uh Euclidean geometry teacher um who In his uh action in the way that he thought about his own and felt about his own subject and the way that he cared for his students, deeply convicted me of the fact that truth ought to be pursued for the sake of itself and that it was an intrinsic good. Um it was one of the first times I think I felt uh really liberated in uh in a very special way. For I uh again, there was a long time where I thought, uh, okay, there are still classes, especially in a math class. I never thought in a math class I would um think there was any uh intrinsic good that that could be found. Um but the minute that I came into that class, um even though I didn't understand much of Euclid, I definitely saw what he was saying about truth generally. Um and he was just a remarkable, a remarkable teacher. He uh there's another person actually who described him in this way who also knows him, who's also a teacher, um, who uh who said he is like the general patent of Euclid. He would come in, guns are blazing, he would be telling people what's up, you know, feet on the table sometimes. You know, he could be in a kid's face at one point, have a kid at the board, he'd be screaming, he'd be, and he's a big guy. He he looked like Jack Nicholson, like a really big Jack Nicholson. And he uh he would scare the you know the uh the living daylights out of me, but he just loved this pursuit of the truth. He was in every single way, I think, the closest uh person I can uh think of to Socrates. I mean, he just loved it. It was it was his vocation through and through. And uh he didn't just convince me, he convinced uh so many people uh pursuit.

SPEAKER_05 46:04

Do you remember any anecdotes from that class of things that he said or things that stood out to you? Yo, yeah. Um that you can repeat on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 46:16

That's right, that's right.

SPEAKER_03 46:17

That's the that's the um you know, it was funny. There's a um a friend of mine that you all know, that uh, you know, one of my best friends, uh, that uh that told me this story that that I remember being in the class. Uh and I'm sure you wouldn't mind me sharing this. Yeah, mostly because he was a ninth grade boy. Uh but when uh the teacher had instructed everyone uh to do something, you know, to go over the prof, and uh, you know, he wasn't doing it, he went up to him and he told him, What?

SPEAKER_02 46:57

You don't care about the truth or something like that? And he just started bawling. I can't believe a teacher was to me.

SPEAKER_03 47:07

And uh, you know, he uh went on and became uh one of uh one of the most remarkable Euclid teachers that I know. You know, like it's remarkable, like the conversion that happened. Um but I would just see him if he wasn't in a classroom, I don't know when he ate or like did anything else. If he was outside of the classroom, he was talking to a student about about something, picking a he liked to call it an intellectual street fight. That's what he was proof. And uh he wouldn't just do it with the students, he'd be picking uh intellectual street fights with the teachers too. I remember one of his favorite things, uh actually I was just reminded of this, one of his favorite things that he liked to debate teachers on, other math teachers on, was uh whether or not uh zero is a number. And it was just like this fascinating, it was riveting to see this as a student, you know, just uh this um this teacher act this way. And uh apart from all of his love of the subject, he was an incredible storyteller. He I think there's just something so transparent. I know, Ryan, we've uh uh talked about this, and I've seen you uh uh do this, and it's so remarkable uh when you do it. Um the ability to share uh a story from one's own life that uh might in some cases seem so absurd, just so irrelevant, but has a deeply metaphysical truth underlying it. And a student's just so wrapped up in the character of the person that's there. Um it was just so moving to me. So even more than Euclid, I think I just remember him and uh you know his character, and I wanted to emulate it as much as possible.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

That's really interesting because one of the hardest things to figure out is how does math and the classical liberal arts thing mesh together? It seems like Euclid does it the best. Um, but you're when you're talking about that storytelling element, uh was he telling stories that has some sort of a Euclidean tie to it, or was it just that he's just talking about some random thing that he remembers and you all just find it interesting?

SPEAKER_03 49:22

Well, you know what's funny? I think it wasn't tied to Euclid, but it also wasn't random. And uh I don't know, maybe this speaks a little bit to the role I think he was taking on. He was trying to teach us through Euclid about why uh truth is is good and ought to be pursued, and it should be our lifelong goal. Um, but in every single one of his stories, um he showed us through his own life and his own struggles, and and he went through a lot of uh of difficulties and a lot of just interesting moments, how he made uh the wrong steps and then the right steps to ultimately come to a place where he could uh you know have such a love and desire for the truth. Um and so you know, it's hard because I think while the Euclid teacher might in some cases want to convince students, or at least a student might think, that a Euclid teacher is trying to convince them that Euclid is the highest truth worth pursuing, I think in many ways uh he uh this teacher um was trying to show how important of a truth it is, uh, but also that it's uh an avenue for understanding the highest truth. For thinking clearly about uh about things. I remember uh one of my friends saying this at the time um uh that he told uh this teacher told him, he was a teacher for both of us at the time, and uh he said in many ways uh Euclid will be uh the first, if not the only natural science that a student uh will actually uh get in high school. Uh meaning uh it's uh a science which studies natural objects, it studies quantity, and it's the one that might they might clearly be able to demonstrate something about in many cases. Um if we lose grip of that, then how can students come to think clearly about things that are much more complicated if they can't say things about um you know magnitude or something like that? Um and so I think a lot of that class was gearing us to again uh to love thinking, to love the truth. Um and so it's hard. It's hard to give anecdotes and tie them into math, uh, but I think he thought that was a sacrifice that was worth making for the hopes of getting them to a much higher place and passing the baton on uh later as well.

SPEAKER_05 52:02

Yeah, I I think that's so great and important that you bring that up because um there's this there's this weird thing that happens in education where people don't think that you're buying what you're selling. That they think you're just selling it to kids. Like, hey guys, you know, you need to do this because it will be useful for you. The thing we're doing right now isn't really useful, um but we have to go through it so that you will become useful, so that you can interact with use usefulness with utility. Um but the the thing that I saw and experienced in being a teacher in classical education is no, the the the way of life you are living that you're modeling for the students uh is highly useful and highly interesting just as a human being, as a person. Um and so uh and and I think if students don't really understand that and and I think I don't know what you guys think about this, I think sometimes it's good to be really explicit about that. Like this book makes me, the teacher, really think about these things. Um or as you mentioned, seeing teachers debate sometimes like brings it home that whoa they actually really care about this in a way that uh isn't just a show for me, the student. Um yeah, I don't I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 53:48

Does that seem like I I think you have to because I mean everything what you're hoping that the students are going to experience through education is an entire transformation of the self, not just being stuck with the head knowledge uh where they can tell you all the right things but go off and be a jack wagon outside of school. In fact, those are the students we dread the most. Like we have the kids, and they're actually a little bit terrifying, like who who know all the all the data, all the buzzwords, all the phrases that you want to hear, but nothing about the intellectual life has seeped down into their bones and formed the sort of choices they make and how they live. Um so unless they see that integration happen with adults, they're not gonna have uh uh uh a structure of plausibility for it. Um it is jarring to have giant Jack Nicholson scream at you, don't you care about the truth? And and say that he's not just like BSing you because he wants you to get a good grade on the test. He does that with everybody because the truth is just that meaningful and that worth knowing.

SPEAKER_04 55:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:03

Um yeah, I mean, I I've I can just think of so many kids that were fascinated by uh public debates that uh Mr. Gray and I would have, uh, or just uh any of the teachers in the hallways, like they would listen to us and say, you guys actually do talk about this stuff. Yeah. Uh and that that gave them the license that you can actually take this seriously as an adult instead of just use it for the sake of utility. I I don't know. That's yeah, my hot take.

SPEAKER_05 55:38

Yeah. Well, hey, we gotta we gotta keep going. I really want to hear about some of these other experiences for you in high school. And and yeah, so if you have another if you have another one kind of later on in high school, let's go there. And then as an adult, where did the conversion come in and how did well here's what I'll say to set up the uh if uh the final conversion, I guess, both intellectual and uh religious, the story I think in high school that was most uh interesting to me, by the time I became a senior, um I was uh effectively um when it was convenient, an atheist, when it was convenient, an agnostic.

SPEAKER_03 56:21

Um depending on the crowd I was in. I my idols, uh I loved Bill Maher and Christopher Hitchin. I loved, you know, rational thought. I remember one time I made a uh I think someone uh really upset who was uh uh a Christian student, one of my classmates, when I said, Oh, you've got faith, so you purposefully suspend your critical thinking? And uh she didn't like that very much, you know, and uh feel real bad about it. Um you sounded terrible. There was a really, you know, it's a long uh yeah, roll conversion that happened, but I just want to say one thing, and this is just a testament to Providence uh playing a role in my life that that manifests itself later. Uh if there is a little time to share that story, please. But I think there was a moment in high school, uh, and I've told my students this this story actually here, um, when uh I was atheistic, I was debating against my parents. I was uh you know, I had a you know a couple of liberal tendons. I was basically a libertarian at the end of the day. Um and my parents uh I think saw a lot of the transitions that were going on. I was also dating uh somebody that they didn't like and and all of that. I mean, there's just so much of a complexity, and they said, okay, we gotta take a trip to India to cleanse this boy's soap. You know, we gotta bring the Hinduism back to them. So we went, and they uh took me on this whole uh journey. When you go to India on a spiritual retreat, you go down this whole um kind of path of temples. There's this place you go to, and you go to each temple, one after the other. And and uh I remember we showed up there and my parents said, Take off your shoes, it's time to walk. And I said, What? We're walking, and it's about you know seven miles. You're just walking barefoot, temple to temple. And you just go and you pray and all of that, and we finally get to the last one, and uh I just see this ginormous staircase, like almost ascending into the clouds, and we have to climb up and up and up, and finally we get to the top, and there's this stone with two imprints on it. Uh, and they call it uh the foot of God. You know, and I thought this is the most ridiculous thing I think I've ever seen. And of course, you have to walk all the way back down, and you walk the entire seven miles back. I mean, I was exhausted. And I thought, what is going on? Why is this happening? This doesn't make any sense to me. Um, and I remembered uh at before I left, I had been talking to this very close, uh, close friend of mine, again, one whom you know. Um, and uh he I think was interested in uh in inviting me to to talk about the Christian faith at the time. I think he himself was interested in going to math. Um he was interested in going to Thomas Aquinas College at the time. And I was like, hey, you know, I was thinking about it and all that, but anyway, I thought about it on a trip. We get back to the house after this whole retreat, and I just get into this huge argument with my parents. And uh I go to my room and I think this is just absolutely bonkers. I don't know why this is happening. And I uh um start remembering this time and and uh all of that with uh you know thinking about my friend saying what he's saying. And uh as I'm thinking about it, um and I kid you not, I start to hear bells and I think what on earth and so I open the window and then I hear nothing and I close the window and I hear bells again and it was just this incredible moment where that was weird. I was just so confused what was happening, but it was at that moment that this friend I started thinking about this friend telling me to consider uh Christianity more seriously. Um and ultimately when I go on later and this conversion happens, this is the friend that I think is uh is a cause of my conversion in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:32

Um so anyway, I want to share that anecdote. What what were the bells? They were like church bells. There's no churches there.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:44

I mean, I thought, gosh, I must have tinnitus or something at the time, you know. I thought this is absolutely ridiculous. This is crazy. I didn't tell anybody about it for the longest time. Uh I tried to attribute so many different causes to it, and it might have been, you know. It might have been some biological reason, but every time I think back, I always get a uh an interesting outlook on it that maybe um even for my depraved soul at the time, there was Providence uh looking out for me, you know, in many ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:14

Well, I mean I'm I'm fully buying that you had a mystical experience. Like God was uh letting you hear bells through whatever means. Um But it's just interesting, like you went on a pilgrimage, you go up, you encounter the gods in the clouds, you come back down, then you hear the bells, like you then you encounter the church. Um it's that correct me if my if I'm wrong, but that's kind of mimicking this whole story that you're describing right here, where you're through Euclid and through the natural sciences, you're getting pointed upwards, you're encountering the God, now you're coming back, and you're starting to find the church just a direct incarnational corollary that's tied to the divine.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:10

Yeah. Um it's really nice because at the end, I think you're right. W for me, the mystical experience was really completed by an uh an intellectual conversion where I recognize that the life of reason and the life of faith are are inextricably um linked. And uh one of my friends just gave the most convincing argument to me that what I should do the next day is go and become a Catholic. It was just one of the most you know important moments of uh of my life uh for me. Um of course there's a lot of stories here and there that I'm missing in the uh in my college days, which I know we don't have time, I'm sure, to get into, but I uh we'll just have to have them back on. It's just that you're killing me.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:01

This this has happened more than once now where we get to like the really good stuff and then time is over. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Well, leave them wanting more, I guess. This is part one. Yeah. Yeah. Nikil, this has been so much fun. Um I'm I'm so thankful that you came on. Uh I'm I'm dying inside that we're gonna have to end it here, but yeah, let's let's get you back on in the near future. Um I mean we we didn't even talk about how you've changed after the effect you've had on your kids, and how you've been the the Jack Nicholson uh with fire in his belly that that drew people into the church yourself, not through direct evangelism, but just by being a good teacher, point to the truth. Um there's just so much more to explore, so I'm so grateful that you were willing to come on, and um I'm excited to do this again before too long. Thanks so much for having me, guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:02

This was awesome. I hope I can come back again sometime.