How to Draw the Cynical Middle Schooler Into the Great Ideas w/ Elizabeth Williams

Elizabeth Williams knew she wanted to teach from the time she lined up her stuffed animals for class as a small child, but it was a homeschool high school built on classical literature—and a self-led reading of The Grapes of Wrath—that showed her what her early Catholic schooling had left out. After studying literature, history, and theater at Franciscan University of Steubenville and starting her career in the classroom at Great Hearts, she now teaches middle school and is building a theater program from the ground up. She joins Ryan and Alex to talk about awakening wonder in the most self-conscious students in the building, turning a classroom into a mead hall, and why anything worth doing is worth doing badly.

What's in This Episode:

• Awakening wonder in middle schoolers—the age where "it becomes cool not to care"—and why that window shapes lifelong beliefs about what a student can and can't do
• Transforming the classroom into the world of the text: candlelit mead halls for Beowulf, a conch shell for Lord of the Flies, a projected balcony and foam swords for Cyrano de Bergerac
• Using whatever's on hand as a prop—a rolling chair as a horse, a talent-show flyer as a love letter—because the symbol matters more than the object
• Selling students on a book by exaggerating your own enthusiasm, since middle schoolers see through a single glimmer of discontent
• Trading an overwhelmed, perfectionist first year for a "firm but kind" classroom by asking for help and putting yourself on the hot seat

Resources Mentioned:

• Great Hearts Academies
• Classical Learning Test
• Arcadia Education

Chapters:

• 00:00: Introduction and Elizabeth's path into classical education
• 05:00: A self-led study of The Grapes of Wrath
• 10:07: Awakening wonder in the self-conscious middle school years
• 21:03: Why drama forces students into the great ideas
• 27:20: Cutting through cynicism at each student's pace
• 31:14: Turning the classroom into the text
• 36:22: Keeping your own imagination alive
• 47:39: Teaching Shakespeare to eighth graders
• 55:40: Pointing students toward God in a charter classroom
• 59:30: Perfectionism and the "firm but kind" classroom

Hosted by Ryan Klopak (Arcadia Education) and Alex Julian (CLT). The Furrows podcast features leaders in classical education who have been transformed by classical education. 

Produced by Saint Kolbe Studios.

Transcript

speaker-1 (00:06.796)
Welcome to the Furrows Podcast where we are having conversations with educators who have been transformed by ed classical education and who are in the process of transforming others by that same means. so I would actually first love to hear a little bit about you. what's your background? How did you get into this classical education world?

speaker-2 (00:30.05)
Yes, well, thank you both for having me. as a big fan of GK Chesterton, being on a podcast named after one of his articles is a big goal. So I can cross that off my bucket list. I have always loved classical education, and from my earliest days I have wanted to be a teacher. As a four or five-year-old, I would set out all my stuffed animals on my bed and hold school.

And as that continued, my brother would become my students and I would act out history lessons and Greek myths as a middle schooler. And so I feel as though teaching has always been in my blood. My experience with classical education, however, began in high school. So for kindergarten through eighth grade, I went to a private Catholic school. And while it formed me well.

I could feel as though some elements were missing. And now looking back on it, I know that it was really teaching in a traditional way and teaching virtue through the classics that was missing from that instruction. And so in high school, I had the opportunity of being homeschooled, and that ended up being a wonderful privilege and a blessing for myself. I lived on a farm, so I was able to spend more time.

working with my animals and taking additional classes that I pursued through community college. I also took part in a traditional homeschooled co-op that ended up becoming a Chesterton Academy. So it ended up becoming a classical school after I graduated. And so during my time in high school, I was able to really experience classical literature, the kind of literature

That I wish I had from the earliest age. And while my parents instilled a love of literature in me, I didn't quite experience that at school. We would read modern books, and our instruction was really watered down. And so when I got to high school and began to immerse myself in strong writing curriculum, in classical literature, that's when I first felt this strong desire.

speaker-2 (02:54.07)
to read and teach literature for a living. And that desire was only fueled during my time at my liberal arts college at Franciscan University of Steubenville, Ohio, where I studied British and American literature as well as history and theater. So I like to say it all coincides in Shakespeare for me. That's where I really found my joy in reading the classics and teaching them and acting them out.

While looking at the historical context. And so I was truly immersed in classical education during my time at a liberal arts college. I was able to engage in Socratic discussion. And all the while I was just holding on to every second of it. I was wishing I had experienced this for my whole life for years.

and being able to experience it during my high school and college years really ignited that spark. So that when Alex Julian reached out to me during my senior year, he was able to convince me within a phone call to come and visit his great hearts classical academy that he was the headmaster of in Arizona, which was not on my radar at all. Although I knew I was searching for a strong rooted classical school.

And it took a couple steps in the door, coming in late from a delayed flight, running up the stairs and teaching that demo lesson for me to know this is where I'm supposed to be. And thank you. Yes, it was an ordeal by fire, but I just had an inkling from that moment. Yes, that's that's where I'm supposed to be. And while I'm no longer there, I'm now in Idaho.

speaker-0 (04:33.87)
Great job, by the way.

speaker-2 (04:51.304)
I love that through a classical academy, I'm able to carry on that same mission that I had at Great Hearts.

speaker-0 (05:00.342)
That's great. Do you remember once you switched over to homeschooling and high school, was there a core book or experience where you've felt like, this is different than what I'd been experiencing before?

speaker-2 (05:16.354)
Hmm. Yeah, that's a really good question. I think, and it it's not necessarily an archaic text, but I essentially did a self-led study of the Grapes of Wrath. And through that process of reading Steinbeck's novel, I was torn apart and it felt like it was one of the first serious novels I had read. I did not like the way it made me feel at first as a tenth grader. And

There was something about it that was different that caused me to stop and reevaluate the way that I was looking at past events and to recognize these real timeless truths that this book carried. So I would say that was one of the novels that really stood out to me.

speaker-1 (06:05.358)
Okay, well what so what were the parts that were starting to make you feel uncomfortable and what was the uncomfortability about it?

speaker-2 (06:12.972)
Yes. Well, so the Grapes of Wrath is such a beautifully bittersweet and tragic tale about the nineteen thirties Americana experience. And I think for me, Steinbeck's writing, his rhetoric, the way he switched between the dialogue and the story of this family, and then the way he took a step back and through this wider lens.

Really showed us the universal experience of pain and suffering during this time. It wasn't something that you could just read once or glaze over or put in a happy little box. It really did stick with you. And I remember, even as a high school student, those words, those phrases kept coming back to me and and you're forced to ponder them. And I think that's a hallmark of classic literature.

speaker-0 (07:10.03)
Yeah, I think that's right. what was it like doing a self study? Because I think we're so used to reading those books and discussing them with others in a Socratic seminar. But I could I could see you getting a lot out of a self study too. How how did that compare?

speaker-2 (07:27.18)
Yes, so I read the text at my own pace and I ended up checking in with a certified teacher to discuss some of those works, but essentially the whole of the analysis was up to me. And that certainly challenged me as a high school student and pushed me out of my comfort zone, certainly. And I think because I was able to go at my own pace, it caused me to really.

experience the novel in a slow contemplative way, I would say almost. So I was able to reflect on all those important details, go back to them, and then synthesize my thoughts at the end of that unit.

speaker-0 (08:12.654)
That's great. I think I read Death Comes for the Archbishop like that, and it it it's itself to just an interior slow kind of contemplative read. but I still feel like going through a text that way, there's like ideas inside you that you really want to discuss in a seminar, even years later and

They're so vague and imperfect compared to when you read it that there really is something about discussing the work that makes it different, you know.

speaker-2 (08:50.7)
Absolutely. And I found that to be the case during my study of literature in college. I remember struggling with feelings of, well, maybe I'm not smart enough to discuss philosophy, maybe I'm not smart enough to discuss psychology. And I think that's a fairly universal struggle that we all go through in our education. And I I remember really wrestling with this. Okay, maybe I'm not an intellectual, maybe, you know, these

broader, intense overall concepts aren't for me. And then I stepped foot into my first literature elective course and I was on fire being able to discuss Aristotle's poetics and being able to talk about Elizabeth Barrett Browning. And I just realized you just need to find your scope and you need to find your angle. And through literature, it it has the power to set your heart on fire. And you just

You want to keep discussing it. That's why when you read a good novel, a good book, something that really has those transcendental truths, beauty, truth, and goodness, you can't just keep it to yourself. So there is this need to discuss it, to share it with others, to reflect on it in order to get the full experience.

speaker-1 (10:07.936)
Okay, you talked a little bit about the intellectual ideas not being for me or maybe philosophy is not ju it's just not my thing. that is something I hear a lot from the students that I've had and I hear it a lot from actually people that I just know who aren't in classical education are like, Yeah, the Aristotle stuff like great, that's really good for some people. but there is this feeling of inaccessibility and

Maybe this is just for some people who are bent a certain way, but not for everybody. in our pre-show interview, you were talking a little bit about how much you love teaching middle schoolers and there's is such a vulnerable time because you have kids who are more self aware than they've ever been. and when you are challenging them to engage in texts that are pretty dense and f pretty philosophically

challenging and they have to take a risk and make themselves sound potentially stupid in front of their peers. how do you help them navigate that gap of starting from well it's just not for me to being drawn into that participation?

speaker-2 (11:25.038)
I think it starts with wonder. At the core, I really do think it starts with this sense of wonder at the work that they're reading. knowing middle schoolers, I've taught sixth, seventh, and eighth grade now, they can be very standoffish. And it's a very vulnerable age, as you mentioned, where it becomes cool not to care. you're looked down upon if you're the smart kid, you're looked down upon if you're the teacher's pet.

There's all of these social stigmas that are being formed. Their opinions are being formed, their passions are being formed, and they're as malleable as sponges at this time where they can soak in all this information. and their memories work wonders. They really do. But they're also at this time where they're the most self-aware they've ever been, they're the most self-conscious they've ever been, and they often have this petrifying fear of being wrong, or this petrifying fear of being looked at as

Too cool, not cool enough, unintelligent, too intelligent. And they're constantly trying to fit into this box that they believe others have created for them. When at the same time, they're also worried about themselves that they're not busy judging the other person. And so it is such a vulnerable age. And it does take a lot for them to step outside of their box. And I feel like as teachers, we have this sacred duty.

To help help bring them outside of their comfort zone, help awaken that moral imagination, help awaken that sense of wonder at learning, because it's such a vulnerable age. And if that wonder is not awoken during middle school, sometimes they'll just stay inside their shell. If they're told, no, learning's not for you, or math is not for you, or you know what, you're not that great at art.

Those are the kind of beliefs that they hold on to for the rest of your life. And if you think about interacting with adults, they'll express these deep rooted beliefs in themselves. I'm no good at art, or singing's not for me. You don't want to hear me sing. And so many of those beliefs, those deep rooted beliefs, started from this insecurity in this vulnerable time period in middle school. And so I think our duty as teachers during this time is really to encourage.

speaker-2 (13:49.1)
That creativity to encourage that sense of wonder and to encourage them to look silly, which is the last thing they want to do. Right. G.K. Chesterton said, don't be afraid of failing big. Anything worth doing is worth doing badly. And when they start speaking about the text, they are going to do it badly. but practice makes not necessarily perfect, but

Permanent. And so if they continue practicing, if we continue encouraging that skill, they are going to be able to build these lifelong habits. And most importantly, they're going to be able to articulate their thoughts in a normal, logical manner, which is a lost skill in our society.

speaker-0 (14:36.108)
Yeah, I think that's such a good point. So many adults don't get that experience in middle school. And so while there's something we can do for the kids who are going through that now, what do you say to the adults, maybe even like yourself, where you find yourself in that situation, either joining a classical school or going to a college? How do you awaken the wonder then?

If you didn't have a teacher that did that for you in middle school.

speaker-2 (15:07.65)
I think it's the same process. I think you have to be okay with looking silly, okay with looking a little foolish, okay with failing, which is not something that anyone likes doing, so don't get me wrong, but you have to be brave, you have to be courageous and step outside of that comfort zone because you really truly aren't going to learn unless you put yourself out there, unless you try and practice those skills. And so I think.

Even when it comes to something like reading the classics, it's not going to come easy at first. You're not going to immediately be an Alex Julian, but it is going to take a great deal of practice and it's a skill that anyone can develop. You just have to have the discipline and the perseverance to develop that skill.

speaker-0 (15:58.446)
So what what did that for you when you were at Stevenville?

speaker-2 (16:02.69)
Yes. I think there was a lot of discipline and a lot of perseverance involved. I had a a pretty large friend group, but at the same time, many of my nights were spent saying, No, I can't do this. I have to write an essay. And there were quite a lot of essays that I did write. And I remember my senior spring. My magnum opus of that year was my senior thesis, and I really poured my heart

mind and soul into that process. It was something that I felt foolish at times. I felt judged by my friends. Why are you spending all of this time researching and working and writing and editing? And and when I turned it in, I still wasn't proud of it. I still felt, there's more I could do. It feels like a lifelong process that I need to work on. But it was worth doing and it was important. And so it was worth

Putting a quality amount of effort into doing that skill. And so if if you're not cultivating, if you're not practicing those habits, you can't just expect to instantly gain that skill. So it took a lot of discipline, certainly. And there were times where I didn't show quite enough discipline, but certainly just this constant perseverance.

speaker-1 (17:24.622)
Do you remember times where you failed hard?

speaker-2 (17:28.77)
Yes, I did quite a lot. I think a lot of it came from this assumption that I needed to achieve everything perfectly. So I am a bit of a perfectionist and I struggle with asking for help. And as my former headmaster, Mr. Julian, knows that more than anyone. And so I have this impression that okay, I need to be my best at all times. I need to give a hundred percent to everything.

And that's just not possible. Sometimes the best you can do is not the best you can do in this idyllic sense. It's the best you can do under your current conditions. And I think ultimately through college and now through my past couple years as a teacher, I've learned you just have to let go of some of that. It's not going to be perfect because we're not perfect beings. but it's the striving for something good, something very good.

and to not let perfect get in the way of something very good. So I think it's just that constant striving, but not holding yourself to unreasonable or unrealistic standards.

speaker-0 (18:40.856)
You said that literature really unlocked something for you in college. What was it about the literature that pulled you in in a way that the philosophy or maybe the theology didn't?

speaker-2 (18:55.586)
Mm-hmm.

speaker-0 (18:57.525)
Start there.

speaker-2 (18:58.326)
Yeah. Yes. So well, I I recognize the great importance of theology and philosophy. And I I did my best to engage during that time. It just didn't come as easily to me in terms of discussion. I'd have I have these philosopher friends, I still do, and we'd sit down and they'd suddenly be at each other's throats in this intense philosophical argument, and I'd be just trying to follow along. Wait, what is this concept? I don't even understand.

what realm of metaphysics we're talking about. And for me, I love stories. I love literature. I love the drama. in in a Grecian Arist Aristotelian sense. And so I love following characters, following a story. And I always have, and I think during my study of literature, I was able to find those philosophical and theological truths

within the pages of the novels I was reading. And so it was really just looking at those same transcendentals, beauty, truth, and goodness, but looking at them through the lens of great writing and finding them there in a way that resonated with me powerfully.

speaker-0 (20:11.964)
that's so good. Did what you said that talking about the characters r helped you to understand the ideas. Did that in the end also then help you with philosophy and theology?

speaker-2 (20:28.194)
certainly. Yes, it certainly did. And so I think I think just the act of discussion, right, furthers our understanding so much. And half of the time I would have my friends explain those concepts to me. But trying to teach it to someone else, trying to vocalize it back to them is so important. And I try to foster that skill with my students now because I've learned firsthand how much

How much discussion can really aid us in understanding?

speaker-1 (21:03.314)
you talked a little bit about being a theater teacher. I want can you talk more about that? I because I'm really interested in this idea of forcing people into the participation with the great ideas, even if they feel like, well, I just don't know how to participate it. Drama what drama you're you're forced into it whether you get it or not. I I don't know. What's the magic of it? Why does it work?

speaker-2 (21:31.95)
I'm gonna go back to that same Chestertonian word, which is wonder. And I think that all of us have this child within us, not child-ish per se, but a childlike quality where we delight, we wonder in art in all forms, and we're able to see whether it's poetry or music or drama or dance or visual arts, we're able to see there is something objectively good or true or beautiful here.

And I think with middle schoolers, they can't help but love these stories. They can't help but love seeing drama unfold. I mean, their lives are full of drama, for goodness sake. but to see this sublime drama that's so much bigger than their problems played out on stage is a beautiful thing. And when I say on stage, of course I mean within the confines of our classroom. And so

I think it starts with in fostering that wonder through your classroom, through instruction, and then challenging them to be bold, to be brave, to not be afraid, to look silly, because anything worth doing again is worth doing badly. And so once we kind of form this environment where we're we're cultivating confidence and it's okay to fail and we're

We're all here to support one another. Students feel more ready and more able to share their talents. And I've seen so many students grow in confidence. just this school year, I've been teaching seventh grade students Cyrneau de Bergerac, and we're three acts in, and you should have seen them acting out our balcony scene. My goodness, you would have thought that they had been rehearsing for six months.

They just can't help entering into this story, and especially in theater, it's portrayed in in such a tangible way where it's visible to them. And I've always said that Shakespeare is not meant to be just read silently in your head. It's meant to be acted out. It's a story. It's supposed to be a play. So you're supposed to experience the verbal, the visual, the dramatic elements all at once. And then even with Rostan's Cyrneau de Vergerac.

speaker-2 (23:55.35)
It's the same thing. The students are really coming alive and it's through through the arts that we're igniting this love of literature.

speaker-0 (24:06.54)
Okay, so I want to push in there a little bit more. Yes. I'm sure for a lot of people listening to this who have taught seventh graders and you're saying that they are acting it out as though they've been doing it for months. My experience when I was teaching seventh graders or middle schoolers early on was it was impossible to get them to act out front of their peers. So I know you talk about wonder, but I think maybe you're even selling yourself short in terms of the techniques you use.

to get hyper insecure people to to get to the point that you were just talking about.

speaker-2 (24:44.642)
Yes. Well, I don't know about that, but I I will try to go further in depth. And so I think the first thing is creating this immersive environment. If you want them to be immersed in literature, I think the first thing that we need to do is make the entire classroom immersive. And so something that I love to do because I am a theatrical person naturally is I love to

Change as much of my classroom as I can to reflect the novel, the play that we happen to be reading. When I taught Beowulf, I found little lanterns and I would turn them on and I'd turn off the lights and we would read Beowulf as if we were in a mead hall. And when I read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, our rolling chairs became horses. I think you need to, as a teacher, show them.

This isn't silly to me. I'm willing to do this silly thing. And by the example of the teacher, they they too feel this confidence and they're able to kind of drop those defenses and look silly as well. And truly, as GK Chesterton would say, we're not looking silly. It's the other people who are sitting there coldly not wanting to engage that are missing out on the beauty of the community.

the whole communal aspect that's taking place there. So I think the first thing is creating this immersive atmosphere, this immersive environment. And then I think another thing too is not not forcing the students right up at the at the start. I think it's a slow process of opening their eyes to the piece of literature. And so at the beginning of the school year, I certainly I don't

force anyone to be part of our Romeo and Juliet balcony scene. But I let them experience that maybe through our our brave classmates, they're able to act those out. And then sooner or later they're they're wanting to be a part of this on stage too. And so they they're starting to read the stage directions, they're starting to take smaller roles. And not every student has to be Cyrneau de Bergerac.

speaker-2 (27:01.442)
That's not going to fit every student's demeanor or personality or confidence level as a seventh grader. But my hope is that we can create this environment, we can create this this sense of joy around the literature that we're reading, that they all want to take part in it in whatever way they can.

speaker-1 (27:20.482)
How do you cut through cynicism? I I'm like I'm just imagining seventh grade me, adult me hears you and I know exactly what you're talking about, and I've experienced those things firsthand. seventh grade me was so cynical that if I w if I would have heard you describing what you just described, I would have been like, get me out of here. Like as as soon as possible, because it it feels faked. but it isn't. and like it it really is that.

you have to just let yourself stop being cynical for just a second. how do you cut through that? It it's just such a cynical age, it seems like. not not just the kids you're working with, but the the time we live in. how's that overcome?

speaker-2 (28:09.356)
Well, I'm still working on that. Certainly I do still have cynical students and in today's society it's so easy to get caught up in cynicism. But I think I think letting the students really come to the art at their own pace in their own time is is necessary. And so I I don't expect that day one everyone's going to be

You know, begging to play the lead role. I don't expect that day one everyone will speak in seminar. But I think it starts with.

bringing this warmth into discussion and encouraging those students and and just really taking baby steps with them, taking the journey with them, rather than expecting this brand new student who the last thing they want to do is act. I wouldn't expect them to immediately enter in, but perhaps they can start by giving us the background. Perhaps they could start by reading the stage directions.

Perhaps they could start by telling us what page this quote is found on. And I think it's just this this constant wearing them down like erosion, where eventually, because seventh graders, again, they think it's cool not to care, but eventually you're the one who's not cool if everyone else is super invested in the novel. And so I think the social stigma works against them and for us in that particular sense, because soon they just can't help but be immersed.

And it's it's certainly an erosion, I would say.

speaker-1 (29:46.104)
Yeah, it almost sounds like your focus is on the kids who see the things first and then drawing them into that as much as possible. And then drawing in whoever's willing to participate in in that that thing with them. Mm hmm. rather than trying to force that cynical kid out who's on the marches into the center.

Yeah, I I think there's something important to that that if you force people beyond their own pace, it's it's just like force feeding. They're not gonna enjoy the meal that you're trying to feed them.

speaker-2 (30:23.138)
Right. And then it's actively working against your purpose because rather than them wanting to enter in, they're going to feel as though they're fettered, they're stuck here, and they can't they can't enter in at their own pace in their own way. So they they really need to experience it in from their own perspective, kind of like my experience with literature, and then foster. I think it's our responsibility as educators to foster.

That joy, foster that sense of wonder in little ways through encouragement, through calling on them. And sometimes for some students, they don't want to volunteer, they don't want to put their hand up. And once in a blue moon I'll see this slight, just tiny casual hand, and that's when you call on them, because that's the window or the door that's opening.

speaker-0 (31:14.222)
Yeah, that's well said. I I think you also highlighted something earlier about changing the classroom space. our classrooms, it's amazing how poorly they facilitate learning. Like in terms of the aesthetics of a classroom. it it's a box often and you know, it's got the false ceiling and the really bad lights and

you're trying to do something beautiful that's supposed to transport students and the classroom is not something that transports students. So can you tell us more about where that idea came from to change the way that the classroom looks and to create this immersive environment and then other examples you might have of the way that you did that?

speaker-2 (32:03.458)
Yes. I think it came from my desire to thematically orient my room to the novel that we were covering. I think it made me enter into the literature more, recognizing, if we turn off the lights and we turn on flickering candles, it's it's going to help eighth graders maybe not love Beowulf, but it will help them to enter into Beowulf and that's your door, that's your opening. And so

I think it can be something as simple as playing a certain type of music while you read. Turning off lights, turning on smaller lights, projecting images. We just finished our balcony scene, as I alluded to in Cyreneau de Bergerac. So we projected the Verona balcony from Romeo and Juliet, and I brought in props. So I think you can use

The elements in your classroom already in terms of light, sound, projecting, but I think any little item you can bring in that would be new and interesting and unexpected to the students, that really does help to seize their attention to wonder what it is. So for my Lord of the Flies unit, I brought in a conch shell, and that was this whole new experience for the students. And in our first Socratic seminar,

If a student wanted to speak, they had to hold out their hand for the conch shell, just like in the novel. When I read Anne of Green Gables, and I was inspired by my other headmaster, Eric Taupe, to walk the ridge pole along with Anne. So I stood up and I started walking across the sixth graders' desks, much to their amazement and shock and chagrin. But that helps them to enter in, and it was the last thing that they would expect.

With Cyreno de Bergerac, of course, we have a very over-the-top swashbuckley musketeer hat. And we have foam swords, of course, so we can really enter into the degree we're enabled to enter into. But I think whatever you can bring that would be new and fascinating to the students. That it

speaker-2 (34:22.626)
Whatever you can bring to those students that would be a novelty is going to to serve to really open their eyes to the lit literature. I didn't really say that sentence well, but would you like me to resay that?

speaker-0 (34:39.949)
No, no, no. That was fantastic. if I'm not a drama teacher and I don't know where to get props, like just getting really practical, where do you find props and how do I get those things and bring them in?

speaker-2 (34:53.666)
Yes, so I am also known for using whatever is around me. So a rolling chair can be a horse. a folded up flyer for our talent show was the very important love letter that Cyreno had written to Roxanne. And so really it's it's more about what this item stands for, what it symbolizes than the props themselves. So use a blanket and make it a toga. Use a baseball cap.

and turn that into a sort of character. Use whatever is around you and sometimes all it takes is that symbol and the students are able to suspend disbelief.

speaker-0 (35:38.552)
That's really good. I love the way that you talk about you modeling and initiating that sort of creativity that opens the door for the kids. I mean, when I was at school I like when I was at the school with you and I would go down the halls the first time I saw that, I looked twice and I was like, Wait, these candles are in here? What what is going on? And it was awesome. You

You couldn't help but be drawn into it from the outside, even as an observer. and then I found myself just sitting there being part of the class myself, and I'd never intended for that to happen. So I think it helps not just for middle schoolers, but also for adults.

speaker-1 (36:22.816)
It and I it's striking me that it you have to have just as vibrant, if not more vibrant an imagination than your students do. and I I'm now realizing that my lessons at least at least the goodness of it directly corn correlated with how much imagination I could put into it. What do you do to keep yours alive now? and what are some of the things that you've noticed kills it faster?

speaker-2 (36:51.296)
Yes. Well, what I'll start by saying is you have to sell them on this book. If you are approaching a novel or a book or any unit, to be frank, and you're saying, Okay, we have to get through this. I know, I know you don't like it. I don't like it either. They can see right through you. And you don't even have to say that, but especially middle schoolers, they are astute. They don't want to work to the extent that if they see just a glimmer of discontent in your eyes, they're gonna become

so apathetic towards that thing. And so you have to sell it even more than you like you have to exaggerate your own feelings about it. And I'll be frank, the Canterbury Tales, that's a hard one for me to enter into. But I'll never let the students know that because that's giving that's giving it away. It's giving your power. And so you have to approach this with this hyperbolic zeal.

And at first, you're right, those cynical students might be shocked, they might be hesitant, but they're going to see you willing to do silly things. They're going to see you entering into it with such zeal and enthusiasm that it really paves the way for them to, you know, engage in discussion. So I think there's a lot of modeling enthusiasm for them and recognizing that the constant risk is if you let your

Guard down, or if you treat this like it's a watered down or unimportant thing that it's not worth doing, they pick up on it like that, and then you've lost. And so I think just constantly bringing, not necessarily acting, you don't have to act, being your genuine self, but also finding the good in that novel, finding the good in that unit. And even if it's not your favorite, find the

what is worth doing, what is important, and sell them on that because they'll they'll really follow your enthusiasm.

speaker-1 (38:53.154)
Yeah, but I mean more just you personally, you you have to be cultivating your own imagination. because like you said, they can smell it out that you're faking it if it's not really there. So when you're coming to school excited about Xbook, it's because there is a rich imagination that has been activated. so yeah, it it just seems like that's so hard to maintain. How do you keep that now?

what are you doing outside of school that's keeping it alive?

speaker-2 (39:26.07)
I see. So as much as I can, I do try to read. the curse of an English teacher is that they love to read, but they often can't read freely. They usually have to read in preparation for what they're teaching. But I love to read the novels ahead of time, to enter into them, to prepare, to really dwell on them, like I talked about with the Grapes of Wrath. And you can be thinking about them for months ahead of time, to be planning out different activities, different ways of drawing those students in.

I think for me, reading f famous authors, reading you know, essays by Flannery O'Connor, essays by C. S. Lewis, essays on writing or about education, that keeps my flame alive on days where it feels harder to engage, harder to teach to reluctant students. And I think I think

As teachers, we need to be lifelong learners and we're training the students to be lifelong learners. And so we need to be cultivating those skills too. We need to be analyzing characters one step, two steps ahead of them. because it's a skill, it's a habit, it's something that we need to be practicing as well.

speaker-0 (40:41.59)
Are you still doing theater at all?

speaker-2 (40:43.872)
I am. And in fact, I have a twofold mission in terms of theater here at this school. I'm launching a new theater program from the ground up. So we will be putting on Cinderella in the spring and hoping to bring another story to life as well. And so I think for me, I am drawn to the storytelling aspect of theater. And I love expressing that whether I'm reading dramatically from a book in class.

or whether I'm directing students on the stage or whether I'm taking part in telling that story myself.

speaker-0 (41:19.042)
That's great. When I first started working as a teacher at a classical school, it was pretty normal for faculty to join the student play for small parts. is that something that you've experienced or h what do you think about that?

speaker-2 (41:38.1)
I have experienced it before. In my experience as a youth theater director, I'm often the one running around backstage safety pinning kids into broken costumes and making sure that lights are turned on when they're supposed to be turned on, that props are found. But I have found moments and elements to work in cameos to act alongside the children. So most recently at

Our former school, my fellow directors and I played the adult versions of the Pev and Sea children in The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. And we thought that was just a beautiful collaboration with our students. So a sixth grade student I taught played Lucy, and I was able to play her as an adult. And so just finding those moments where they can see it's not something silly, it's worth doing. Look, the adults are in do are enjoying it. They're taking part in it as well. I think.

That makes it all the more exciting for the students.

speaker-0 (42:41.858)
That seems right. It also seems like students have this notion that when you're an adult the things are not as hard as when you're kids. Mm-hmm. And when you do something difficult like memorize roles for a play and show up in a space that they're not used to seeing you in, they realize no adults have to make the effort too and it it's not just lip service to say that i i it's challenging for everyone.

speaker-2 (43:10.488)
Right. And I think as educators, we need to recognize the amount of work that students are required to do and not necessarily write it off as, well, okay, this is what being in school is. You work and you work and you work. And once you're an adult, you don't have to learn anymore. I think we we need to celebrate the achievements that they make in their learning. the seventh graders that I've been teaching, we just memorized two fairly long poems.

And at the very end, I told them I would recite the poem I memorized in seventh grade that I still have committed to heart, partially as an illustration of the importance of memorization and how it stays with you, but also so they could see me on the hot seat. And they did, they had my rubric out and they scored me. and they wanted to have the words out so they could check. And I think when you first of all, when you see students as capable of doing difficult things.

And then when they also see you entering into those difficult things with them as well, it fosters more respect for that relationship.

speaker-1 (44:21.006)
I wanna go in a slightly different direction for a second. So you said that you grew up going to Catholic school, right? Okay, but it was not a classical Catholic school. classical didn't come till later. Did entering into the classics change the way that you interacted with your faith?

speaker-2 (44:31.011)
Right.

speaker-2 (44:45.14)
I will definitely say yes, but I feel like the two are so intricately tied. I'm not sure if I can put my finger on one particular moment, but it certainly has. And I think looking at classical literature.

Classical literature is something that has persevered because there is this genuine universal truth about the human condition. There's something that can model virtue to us. And it's either modeling virtue directly, showing you this is how we should order our lives, or indirectly, this is how we are not to order our lives. And some are more obvious than others. And I think when you look at it,

from the lens of a Christian faith. You're able to grow in virtue through living these lives, lives that you don't actually live, but lives that you enter into while reading.

speaker-0 (45:48.93)
Good. I want to go back since we were talking about the early Catholic experience.

speaker-0 (46:00.458)
At what point did you kind of lose a care for school or or did that ever happen to you? Because you said you were a little kid, you pretended to be a teacher, but then it seems like something changed and then you you got it back.

speaker-2 (46:18.828)
I think for me, even as a middle school student, I was recognizing there's something, there's something here that is lacking. And while my education was good and I was taught necessary skills, it felt like lots of those skills were directed to test prep per se, or directed to just merely getting good grades. And it felt like the literature

Or the instruction we were getting was being watered down by that. And so rather than reading something for the beauty of that thing, and this was partially in middle school, partially in high school, it was almost utilitarian reading something so we can write about it, so we can be prepared for the test, so we can do something else, instead of the reading being the thing of importance, the thing that is worth doing, the art form itself. And so

I think even as a child I was able to recognize there were these moments where it felt like we were being given watered down curriculum rather than being given the richest of creams in classical in a classical setting. And so

speaker-2 (47:34.72)
It there was definitely something missing there.

speaker-0 (47:39.982)
Great. What's your favorite Shakespeare play?

speaker-2 (47:44.578)
Such a hard question. I'll tell you what my least favorite one was that I have now a greater appreciation for, and that was Shakespeare's The Merchant of Venice. a play that I taught to eighth graders for two years. And when I first read it, I was pretty shocked that I was expected to teach this to eighth graders. The themes are intense. it's full of prejudice, discrimination, hate, love.

Intricate themes that need to be looked at from a critical lens, a critical perspective. There's religious conflict, there's all sorts of really intense matters. And I looked at that and I thought, how do I teach this to eighth graders? How can they even begin to enter into these themes that I myself am wrestling with? And so I approached it from a very hesitant perspective, and I wasn't sure.

I I honestly doubted the curriculum there because I thought there's no way the eighth graders can truly enter into this that they can appreciate it. And was I wrong? Because they were able to show me things that I hadn't considered. I think the minds of children they have this innocence and they're able to see justice and injustice so much more clearly than we are at times as adults.

And they were instantly able to pinpoint those overall major themes, justice and mercy, love and hatred. And and they were able to discuss it at a collegiate level where I would look back and say, my goodness, this is the kind of conversation I could been having in college in a Socratic seminar. And it's true they they weren't able to get everything and

As an English teacher, you have to be thankful sometimes that Shakespeare's innuendos go over their heads. But they were able to glean those important details. And I think that's what reading the classics at a young age, that's why it's so important. It's giving them that exposure. They aren't going to be able to understand it in a doctoral sense and fully analyze and fully analyze it, but they are going to be expecting.

speaker-2 (50:07.272)
exposed to high quality literature and they're able to articulate their thoughts about it. They're able to understand so much more than we would initially give them credit for.

speaker-1 (50:22.936)
How do you help them overcome the language barrier?

speaker-2 (50:26.412)
I think it's a lot of pausing and discussing context. And I usually encourage students to define words while they annotate. We do a lot of annotation in my class. And so they're either looking up those words at home or we're paraphrasing some of those words. I think for important passages, we're reading the whole passage, we're stopping, we're reflecting on it, they're writing about it, we're talking about it. And rather than just me telling them.

This is what it means. It's it's this uncovering that they get to discover on their own. So as a group, as a whole, we're looking line by line, what do you think this means? And this leads to this, and this leads to this. And so the students are collectively able to decode some of this difficult language. And I think the fact that they're doing it rather than just being told verbatim, this is what it means.

I think that resonates with them much more.

speaker-0 (51:30.52)
So I'm gonna keep pushing on this question of what your favorite Shakespeare play is. And maybe the question is, what's your favorite Shakespearean character to act as?

speaker-2 (51:42.114)
There you go. Yeah, I think that that did it for me. So I really do love his comedy As You Like It. And I love Shakespeare's character of Rosalind. And she is so witty and intelligent, but at the same time concocts this unbelievable scheme to dress up as a man and convince the man she loves to woo her.

And so it it's so conniving and it's so complicated. And by act three, you're wondering how did we even get into this mess? but she is such a strong heroine and she really leads this entire action. And I think it's something that Shakespeare was ahead of his time in, certainly, in writing an intelligent female character.

speaker-0 (52:31.65)
great. Do you have a favorite Shakespeare work to do with students, right?

speaker-1 (52:38.52)
It's gotta be Othello. Yeah, I mean they

speaker-2 (52:40.524)
so good.

speaker-1 (52:45.868)
I don't know why we like it so much, but it we do love to see from a visceral level, the mighty being torn down for some reason. and that is I I don't know. It it was really interesting to watch our kids grapple with them noticing that like, huh, I'm I'm getting this weird I don't know, joy out of seeing someone so virtuous.

be torn down, but also being so horrified at the same time. just kind of exploring, okay, well what it what is that thing? Because that seems to be tapping into to whatever Yago is tapping into. I yeah, I that that I think that was the first Shakespeare play I ever got seriously into.

speaker-0 (53:38.786)
Yeah, it's funny you you spend long enough in that space with students and you realize how many of these characters they can relate to whether they realize it or not. That the difference between Iago and a really kind of cynical, mischievous high school boy is not that much. Yeah, like there there's something in them that's like, ooh, how could I ruin all of this behind

speaker-2 (54:06.902)
Right. And Samuel Johnson said Shakespeare held a mirror to human nature and I think that is so true because the types of characters that we see in all of his plays are people that we regularly encounter. And yes, I certainly agree that many high school boys are made up of Iago.

speaker-1 (54:27.0)
Mm-hmm. And it was interesting too with Iago, he admits at one point, so he he says at the beginning his whole crusade to destroy Othello is because he thinks that Othello slept with his wife. Mm-hmm. But then we get halfway through the play and we find out that he's like, I actually don't even know if he did. I actually don't even care at this point. it it is just for the sake of destruction that I I want to do this thing.

and that that was that was the level where our kids were starting to kinda go, okay, well that that is utterly terrifying that we can get so wrapped up in our passions that we we can even admit to ourselves we've lost the plot entirely, but we just can't let go of the this passion that's driving us.

speaker-2 (55:18.87)
And I think we see that in a winter's tale too, with our main character and it's that same sort of corruption from the green eyed monster of jealousy, where he believes Hermione, his wife, is unfaithful and it's one little rumor that stays with you and ultimately just rippled into chaos.

speaker-0 (55:40.846)
So I want to bring this discussion to kind of talking about the charter space in general. I think a lot of folks in the Christian classical world, Catholic classical world, they think that it's difficult to bring students towards God in a charter space. And of course we, you know, we have to be careful we're talking about the great ideas, but we're also talking about

Truth, beauty, and goodness, which is an eternal transcendental, which is related to our Creator. and so have you seen places where it's not like you're proselytizing, but because you're talking about true things, students become more interested and curious about metaphysical matters or theological matters.

speaker-2 (56:35.596)
I think absolutely. And I think I'm especially blessed as a literature teacher because simply talking about the historical context of something like the Canterbury Tales allows us to enter into a discussion of religion and allows us to examine it from this literary analytical lens. But we're also looking at these transcendental themes, at these universal themes.

And in our discussion of human nature, in our discussion of what is mercy, what if what is justice? students naturally the next step that they take is reflecting first about their world, their community, and then they have this introspective reflection about their worldview. and in terms of religion, I think.

we're able to have those conversations in this free, open manner, just merely by reading literature.

speaker-0 (57:39.17)
Yeah, and it struck me joining a classical space having been in a public education for a long time. I mean, I went to a Catholic high school but before that and then after that was in public school. I didn't realize just how much there was this taboo around claiming that people are even religious beings at all. That they're even like beings who should

Think about metaphysical truths. and and so it's I think it's really nice that the classical school movement has reclaimed that as just part of an anthropology of people. That when you look back in history, the religion isn't just some device for controlling political power as as we often see it now as moderns. It makes up a complete psychology of a human being.

speaker-2 (58:40.718)
Absolutely. And it's not possible to to examine the metaphysics of a human being, to examine, you know, these vast transcendental themes without religion. If you do this from this perspective completely devoid of this higher creator, it it's heartless. It it's it doesn't make sense. And I think students

Even students who are unreligious recognize that there is something objectively true about beauty, truth, and goodness. And I think it's in the pursuit of beauty, truth, and goodness that we are able to lead them to the higher beauty and the greater truth and the best goodness possible.

speaker-0 (59:30.732)
That's great. I'd love to hear

How you shifted from starting out as a really earnest teacher who tried to create these beautiful immersive spaces, and then some, you know, middle school students took that as an excuse to try to run all over you to someone who's a little bit more experienced now and can be really kind but still like be firm and keep an orderly classroom.

speaker-2 (01:00:04.812)
Right. I think those two adjectives that you pointed out, they are my my guiding principles as a teacher, which is firm but kind. And it's also from Fraulein Maria in the sound of music. So she she has molded my perspective as an educator as well. and I think that is true. And you know better than anyone else is my very first headmaster. But jumping right in, first year teacher, 138th grade students.

was quite the experience. And as a perfectionist, I tried to do it all and I tried to do it all perfectly. And that was of course impossible. And so I think feeling overwhelmed and feeling like it it was just impossible to express my authority in a way where I would be respected. I think those were all

Pretty strong struggles in my first year. And I think one of the most important factors in turning that around was growing in my own confidence. and sometimes I had to act, I had to be an actor. So I had to step in and know, okay, there's a bunch of eighth-grade boys and they aren't gonna listen to what I'm saying. And so I just need to say it with confidence, with certainty, with authority.

And it started there. It started in just forcing myself to be as clear as I possibly could. It also became very necessary for me very quickly for me to let go of this desire to do everything perfectly, of this need to always be prepared. Because as an educator, it's just impossible. You can never truly know what the day holds. You can never truly be expected for or be ready for every single question. And so I think.

I needed to let go of those aspirations. And then ultimately, I think it just took experience and I'm still growing, but it's just that process of coming back, learning from every failing, working through those mistakes, and recognizing that even those mistakes are going to help you in the future. And so definitely working in confidence, faking it till you make it. And now that I have the experience.

speaker-2 (01:02:29.686)
It's so much easier to put my foot down. It's so much easier to bring that warmth in, but also know there are rules that need to be followed and I know my boundaries now. And so once the students know what your expectations are, it's gonna be so much easier to enforce those expectations.

speaker-1 (01:02:47.414)
I can't imagine a more perfect hell for somebody with perfectionism than going into eighth grade where you will get you will get none of that back from now. what were some of the ways that perfectionism worked against you in your early teaching days?

speaker-2 (01:03:03.362)
gosh, there were a lot of ways. And I remember one day in particular breaking down crying in Alex's office. And so I think the biggest thing that worked against me was this need to do it all on my own, to not ask for help, because asking for help felt vulnerable. Asking for help felt like a failing on my part.

And I wanted to prove to everyone I was capable. I'm capable of teaching these eighth grade boys and I'm capable of laying down the law. And in truth, I needed help. And so it it took a good six months of struggling through that before I could start to open up and admit I I need assistance with this and I need help with this. And then I think it also took a certain self awareness to recognize it's never going to be perfect.

the best I can do is the best I can do under these current circumstances, which is not going to be this idyllic perfectionist situation, certainly in an eighth grade classroom. So asking for help and forming a greater self-awareness of my capabilities.

speaker-0 (01:04:12.94)
Yeah, that's great. So I I think it would probably be really similar to what you just said, but what advice do you have for new teachers or people who are considering going into teaching in a classical setting?

speaker-2 (01:04:29.932)
Yes, so don't be afraid. Going back to that quote for a third time, anything worth doing is worth doing badly. So even if it's difficult, even if you feel like you're failing, recognize that it is a job worth doing and it's worth persevering, it's worth messing up, it is worth looking silly and humiliating.

And asking someone else for help. And so I think my advice would be don't expect it all to be, you know, lined with roses along the way. It's gonna be lined with lots of crumpled up papers and pens and ink spilled on your floor and all kinds of difficult things. and just don't let the the everyday discouragements get in the way of the overall good of your mission.

And so even though it it is difficult, I'm thinking of a quote that my seventh graders and I just reflected on in our study of Fahrenheit 451. Granger, one of the men who is keeping literature alive through memory, he tells our main character, Montaug, that this work of memorizing books, it is difficult and it is at times disgusting this process. But it never gets so difficult or discouraging.

That we stop doing it altogether, and that's because it's important and worth doing. And I think nothing describes education more than those two quotes that it is difficult and it is disgusting and it is disturbing at times, and you will feel discouraged, but it is worth persevering in because again it's important and it's worth doing. We're forming the minds and hearts of the next generation of American citizens.

speaker-1 (01:06:26.446)
I can't think of a better way to end than on that quote. So I think that's where we are gonna end it. Elizabeth, thank you so much for coming on and talking with us for an hour or so about all the deep insights that have come out of your study of classical education and your entry into teaching. so yeah, it it's been a absolute joy to have you on.

speaker-2 (01:06:51.48)
Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure.