Tatev Talks

Two PH.D. Candidates, A Microphone, and Some Opinions.

• Tatev Sarkissyan • Season 2 • Episode 6

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In this episode, Tatev Sarkissyan is joined by Zahra Mesrizadeh, author of The God  of the Gaps: Understanding Science Through the Lens of Religion and Politics. Zahra is currently a Ph.D. candidate in Bioengineering at UCSD where her primary research revolves in breast cancer. They discuss research, academia, phd life, and their friendship. Follow along! 

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://youtu.be/U3DlWVxhAq0

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https://youtu.be/KEJrp07OJCw

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Guest: Zahra Mesrizadeh UCSD PhD candidate in Bioengineering.

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/author__tgoftg__book

Zahra's Book "The God of the Gaps: Understanding Science through the Lens of Religion and Politics": https://a.co/d/05N0YvVJ

Links & resources: 

How miscommunication happens (and how to avoid it) - Katherine Hampsten: https://youtu.be/gCfzeONu3Mo?si=TfpsTFzJCiXCQVD8

Credits:
Recorded and Produced by: George Purtseladze
Recorded at @mettameditationstudio
Music by @gorgeouzbeats‬

Speaker 5

Welc ome back to Tatev Talks, where Brains Meets Banter. On this episode, we're joined by Zahra Mesrazedi, a published author and PhD candidate. Stay tuned for more. Hi, Tatev. I'm so happy to have you here for many, many reasons. Um, one is that you're my best friend.

Speaker

That's enough.

Speaker 5

That's enough. But besides being my best friend, you're incredibly intelligent, extremely stunning, actually. And also you're just very accomplished, right? You have this book that you're a published author. This is one of my favorite facts about Zara is that she is a published art author, and you're also about to get your PhD in bioengineering, which I just finally got down. Bioengineering from UCSD. You're super cool. You're like one of the coolest people I know.

Speaker 2

Well, you're my best friend.

Speaker 5

I should be cool. I'm not forced to say these things about her. I actually think she's super cool. Thank you. I would love to start a little bit about your book. Um, it's called The God of the Gaps. It's actually one of my favorite facts about you because I just think it's really cool that you wrote a book. You are an a literal published author. I have assigned a copy, but you guys are more than welcome to get a copy. I'm gonna read a sentence from your book um just as an introduction to it. It reads, Eventually, I came to understand that society is not comfortable with the unknowns of the universe. Lack of knowledge intimidates people, sparking uncertainty. In a world of religious fetishism, assigning a God to the undiscovered, I wonder how many gods do we need? I love this. I love this book. I love the way that you were able to kind of combine science, religion, and politics. Do you mind just kind of telling us a little bit about what inspired you and how the process was in writing the book?

Speaker 2

Yeah, um, well, for me it was very personal project. Um, just from my background growing up in Kuwait, born and raised actually in Kuwait, um, it's a very religious country. And um, I realized quickly how uh religion really and politics also affects um what we even learn in school and what gets past the censorship in the country. And then moving to the to the states, um, I got exposed to a more free academia and education system. And so for me it was, but then I also still saw like a lot of influences. Obviously, politics and um religion and decisions really are made, like they're very intertwined. Um, and so I just wanted to like read more, ask more questions, interview different people, try to understand um why is it even as a human on us uh at the psychological even level that we try to fill in whatever gaps that we have and we can't really sit with unknowns as hard. I think it's very hard for us to sit with unknowns.

Speaker 5

It's hard for me too. Yes. It's something we talk about a lot, like me and you, yeah, aside from the cameras, about how maybe lack of control, maybe lack of knowing it is for us, and something that I've talked about prior on the podcast of like balancing science and religion. And I think generally for people, it's very hard for them to have unknowns, and so they assign religion to whatever the unknown is because it's such a safe like fallback option for people. Um, whereas in the science community, religion is just such a no-go. So I think you do just an awesome job about kind of like balancing all three, including politics in this, and please go get yourself a copy. It won't be signed, minus signed, but please do get yourself a copy and support and let us know what you think about it.

Speaker 3

Thank you.

Speaker 5

So cool.

Speaker 3

Thank you.

Speaker 5

Um, yeah, and the next cool thing about you is that you're about to be a PhD. You're all but dissertation defending, hopefully, this year, not hopefully, you're defending this year. I am this graduating. It's super true. I know. I think it's really cool that we're graduating at the same time.

Speaker 2

Exactly. That's what's so cool.

Speaker 5

Like, how how in sync do you have to be with your best friend to graduate at the same time? Especially PhD graduate. Especially PhD. Like, we didn't plan this. You started at a different time than I started, and uh you were supposed to be done sooner. Like it was just like it's literally meant to be that we graduate at the same time. Exactly. Super cool. But I would love to talk a little bit about your PhD, just for people who who don't know um what is bioengineering.

Speaker 2

That's a good question because bioengineering is such an umbrella term for so many different things, but essentially what bioengineering is is that we view uh human body as a machine and engineering system. Wow, and we try to solve for example in disease different diseases, we try to bring a solution from an engineering perspective. Um, so it's really like shifting combining cla clinical and medical side and biology with all the core concepts of engineering that are usually used for like I don't know, like for machines and stuff like that. That's a very good answer. Yeah, it took me uh many years to truly kind of conceptualize it in my head, yeah. Because initially I had no idea what I was walking into. Like I kind of knew, but I didn't.

Speaker 5

How did you get yourself into a Ph? Like, what was your not how did you get yourself into it? Obviously, you're qualified, that's how you got in, but I just mean like how did you come into PhD world and life? And like, was this something you always wanted to do? Like, did you think about this in Kuwait? You know what I mean?

Speaker 2

Yeah, well, actually, uh, for me it was a little bit different because I didn't, I wasn't I'm not one of those PhD students that like it as were aspiring to become a PhD and do research or go to academia. I didn't even know that was a route. Like I've always wanted to not that I've always wanted to be an engineer, but from a certain point I wanted to become an engineer because um, in my in my uh opinion, engineering can you can bring a lot of creativity and I see myself as a creative person. Um, but then when I was an undergrad here, I realized that I can actually go and do research. I knew that I can do masters in engineering, but I didn't know that you can do a PhD. And I kind of accidentally actually got introduced to uh this whole route. I was literally one day I was early to my class, like 15-20 minutes, and I started talking to one of my classmates that we usually don't talk because she always comes and goes quickly. And I was just telling her how stressed I was. I was looking for internships. It was the last year of my under undergrad, and she was like, you know what? Like you should try this like summer research uh internship uh at UC San Diego, and they pay you, you get to work with different people, and it's like you know, it's a good experience. Oh my goodness. Yeah, and that's how kind of how we met too. So it was an accident, it was an accident. Yeah, I I didn't, I I mean I always admit this. I didn't know that there's such a thing as like PhD for engineers. I thought PhD was for like biology or that's actually so interesting.

Speaker 5

I didn't know that. When I met you, the the the summer internship program is called Stars, if anyone's interested. It's but this one is specifically at UCSD, but it's an it was an amazing experience.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Um when I met you, I thought you like you were like one of the smartest people ever. You like knew exactly what you were gonna do. Oh my god, no, not at all.

Speaker 2

That's crazy. But I did I got inspired a lot and I loved it because I just yeah, I just could be curious and ask questions and be get valued for that. Because it's usually not something because like in school, you like go to classes, learn formulas and like answer questions, and like it's very like black and white in a sense.

Speaker 5

Yeah, but when you come or in general, you're thinking well in my field, I guess.

Speaker 2

Like in science, it's very much black and white in early education, yeah. But then when you come to research, it's not as black and white. Yeah, you actually have to contribute, you have to have you have to have your own way of thinking and logic and try to reason.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Like these were the things I loved. Yeah. I love that. And how do you what are you researching now? Because I I know a little bit about what you're researching. Actually, the only thing I know is that it has to do with the breast cancer, but that's generally about it. So tell me a little bit about what you're researching now.

Speaker 2

Um, so I'm getting my degree in bioengineering, but my research is very much focused on computational biology. Um, I'm kind of like a data scientist in a way. Uh, I work with different types of um genomics data. So basically trying to understand and model diseases, for example, breast cancer, um, using genetic information. And that's at, you know, we have like spatial level, so like you can have like a tissue and like look at the genetic underlying because a lot of times with the tissue in clinics, you basically try to look at what receptors it has or doesn't have. Like it's very much like at the um surface level, but with with the newer technologies and with genomics, you can actually have the same tissue and then try to understand the very core DNA, genetics, genes, and stuff like that. So I work with a lot of like spatial and different types of genetic information.

Speaker 5

Yeah, that's so awesome. Can you say that in words that are understandable to anyone who doesn't work in this real?

Speaker 2

I mean, it's it's it's actually really hard. Um, I would say that, you know, my my field, I try to answer questions about, for example, what type of therapy you can um you know administer to a patient that has certain characteristics. Oh, nice.

Speaker 3

Yeah, that makes so much more sense to do that.

Speaker 2

And I do that like using DNA and genetic information. That's to get to that point that you can actually, you know, give admi administer a therapy.

Speaker 5

That's amazing.

Speaker 2

Yeah, that's amazing. Very translational.

Speaker 5

Do you um yeah, super translational?

Speaker 2

Yeah, and and I say that because a lot of times in PhD, um, you don't go to the research. In the research, exactly. You get to do a lot of translational.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and just for anyone who doesn't know that, that essentially to me, that means uh closing the research to practice gap, right? You have access, whatever you're doing is actually closing the research to practice gap. Exactly. You learn something in your research and then people can apply it in actual practice, which is so cool. Like that's so cool. Yeah, you're doing like amazing things in research. Do you hope to continue that after you're done with your PhD?

Speaker 2

I do. I do hope to do to continue this, meaning research in industry sitting though.

Speaker 1

Okay, yeah.

Speaker 2

How does that look like? Um so for example, like you have kind of like two routes. If you want to stay in academia, you want to become a professor, create your own lab, answer you know, questions, finding grants and stuff like that. There's a lot of things that I I'm I don't think I'm made for that, but I do I've always wanted to go to industry because I think that in industry you can close that gap, that translational gap, a lot quicker because of just the infrastructure that exists.

Speaker 4

Yeah, that's understandable.

Speaker 2

Yeah, so I want to do the same kind of research and even advance the research, but in in real world industry situation.

Speaker 5

That's awesome. Yeah, so you don't want to teach?

Speaker 2

I don't I don't know. Although I loved teaching because I had um Did you did you love teaching? I love teaching about stuff that I was doing. For example, like the technology that I was using, and my professor wanted me, like he asked me if I want to teach that lecture.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

And I and I did a few lectures and it was about you know the technologies that I used, and I loved it because it was literally like I knew it to the core. Your home base. Exactly. I loved it, but it's a lot of stress, it's a lot of responsibility. That's what's scary. Yeah, it's a lot of responsibility.

Speaker 5

Says the girl who works with the breast cancer tissue DNA genomics. Okay, a lot of people.

Speaker 2

But I work with a lot of clinicians because of that.

Speaker 5

Like, yeah, but you still I mean, I just think it's different responsibility uh teaching. Like, I don't think I could ever work in industry. I'm not, I don't think I'm built to not have human contact all the time. You know what I mean? That's what I see industry as computer work.

Speaker 2

For me, it is very much computer work, but there's a lot of interactions too. Like you have to be collaborative, yeah, especially in my field, because even my PhD is very collaborative.

Speaker 5

Well, um, actually, that's a great point to talk about. I I don't know, I was actually gonna ask you what your experience was like in PhD because one of the things that I struggled with a lot um in my experience has been that PhD was super isolating for me. Um and makes sense, yeah. And we could talk about the competitive aspect of it too. But what was your experience of your program? Like how do you feel like you experienced the five years? Five? Four? Because you did your masters, four?

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean six with the masters, six with the masters.

Speaker 5

How do you feel like you experienced those six years?

Speaker 2

Um, for me, it was initially it wasn't a great experience, but I mean, let me see how I say this. Be political about it. Um, the thing is, like initially when I started, I was working with uh a completely different lab, doing a completely different thing. It was the same subject, so basically cancer immunology, which is my passion. Um, but it was in a very different setting. I was working in lab, wet lab, trying to essentially um develop drugs to be administered. And that wasn't my my that was not for me because I got to a point that I was doing animal studies and killing animals was not something that I wanted to do, and I had so many nightmares.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

So I it was already not for me, but also the culture of the lab was not so great either.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Um, it wasn't a match. In so many ways, it wasn't a match. And then I rotated in my own lab. And the reason why I actually rotated and not mastered out, because I was a master's student initially, uh, was because of the community that was already in um UCSD bioengineering department. We have this um basically graduate society called BEGs.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

And people who are in BEGS or are involved in Begs, which is especially any graduate student in the department, they're very much from the seniors to like the incomings, they're very much involved in trying to pass on information and especially like with PhD. I mean, as you know, choosing a lab and uh what type of PI to work with and what red flags to look for. They were very woke about it.

Speaker 4

So nice. Yeah.

Speaker 2

So I I mean I learned so much from it and like just kind of being able to go to people to talk about different experiences and to see if this is normal that's happening or not. So we have um, I mean, in my experience, it was a really good place, especially for someone like me that didn't know anything about research and PhD programs. Um, and so I switched because of that.

Speaker 5

And but that wasn't your goal when you started. When you started your MA, you wanted to just get your MA.

Speaker 2

Well, when I started my math, no, actually my goal was to do PhD. But the thing is, um, I did get accepted to PhD programs, but it wasn't somewhere that I wanted to go. Like I went and I visited and it wasn't a good match.

Speaker 1

Okay.

Speaker 2

And I got to a few masters uh programs. The reason why I chose UC San Diego was one was it was my dream school from Under God because UCSD by engineering department is it's well known within the nation. Um, and so it was one of the places that I would I wanted to go. And also another thing was that um we have this like program, like when you get accepted to master's thesis program, you'll actually have a path that you can transition into the PhD. Yeah, exactly. Which a lot of places you have to get your master and then reapply reapply.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And because of that, I accepted it because I was like, I will make that happen. Like and the way that you can make that, yeah, exactly. That was kind of my mentality. Um, I don't know how, but I will make it happen because you had to either um apply for fundings and get like national fundings, which I did to a few, and then, or um, you can find a lab that has the funding and wants to work with you, and they can and they take you and they fund you. Exactly. And the first year of master and PhD is essentially the same thing.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, my school was not like that. We also have the some programs at um UCLA, specifically in the ed department. They have an option to do your master's and then like transfer into the PhD program. You still have to do like an application process to get accepted, but we don't have, at least not that I know of, a grad society that kind of touched on that. So one of the things that I did want to talk up to you about was like the hidden curricula, um, which essentially is what you're saying, this grad society kind of does is like pass on this information that not everybody would know. So you're clear about who to steer clear from or who to talk to or who to ask for things. Um, I think I struggled with that a lot because I didn't have that. And as a first gen student, I know you are as am I, it's very hard to access information or to know what you're doing. You know, you're kind of just like cruising. And I guess what I'm asking you is like, how was that experience of being a first generation student and with the idea of like hidden curricula? Did you come across a lot of things that you felt like, okay, I have no idea what's going on? Like, I don't know what to do.

Speaker 2

Yeah. Every day to this day, honestly, to this day. Cause like anything you want to do, I mean, as a first gen, I actually didn't know this term existed until I entered graduate. I mean, it's so funny. Like, there's like certain things that I was not aware of. Like, I didn't know that the term first generation was a thing until I started applying for grants in grad school. And they would ask you, Are you a first gen? Exactly. And that was kind of like a benefit. Like being a first gen, being a woman, like there are certain like criteria that are to your benefit. And so I became familiar with this concept of first gen. I remember I even asked my PI, I was like, what is it exactly? Because he would he asked me, he was like, Are you first gen gen? And I was, what do you exactly mean? Like I'm I mean, I immigrated here. Like I I didn't know what it meant. And so I I got introduced to it in grad school, and I think that was to my benefit in so many ways, because I feel like sometimes because I didn't know that was something that I was lacking, like I could put term or label onto certain like experiences that I've had uh growing up, but um, I think not knowing that for a fact kind of helped me not see it as an obstacle. Like I just Oh, interesting. Yeah, I was just like, I have to just do this. Like, I can't, you know, I didn't learn this in in at home, or like this is not a language in my household. Because like if you have a I don't know, if you have if you grow up in a household that either your parents were professors or they went to like uh grad school or to universities at all, um you get the language in the household is kind of is already setting you up. Clear that. Clearly, how to speak to professors, how to speak in like academic settings. Yes. Without you knowing it. Like it's just it's just something that you grow up.

Speaker 5

Well, I mean, imagine if you grow up with, and I'm and I say this because I know that when I have kids, I'll do this. Like, imagine if you were your parents were professors, they're gonna take you to their job. Literally, like you will go to college campus with them. I didn't do I never I first time on college campus was the first time I was on college campus as an adult. You know what I mean? Like you don't experience it's very different having parents that went through that experience. 100% how do you talk to your because this is something that I talk about too, but how do you talk to your parents about PhD or research or like the things that you do? Like, I can't imagine you turning and you're Iranian, so I can't imagine you turning around to your parents and farsi or in English and being like, I study breast cancer, data, genomics, you know?

Speaker 2

Like Yeah, no, I I mean I don't I don't I don't talk about My PhD in general a lot because unless like people are in the field, it's it's so hard. Like it's not even just like, oh, how do you speak to your parents about it? Even like to people who haven't been through PhD, but specifically like to my parents, I I pretty much just say I do cancer research. Like I've interesting. At some point, you know, I've sat down and I talked about because they they were curious, especially my dad was curious to know. So I kind of tried to in the simplest way to explain what it is that I do or what is it that I measure and like analyze? Um, but it's it's hard to grasp on.

Speaker 5

It's hard to grasp on.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 5

So I can't figure out a term in Armenian to say research. Like I've had a very hard time explaining to people who are Armenian, like, what is research? You know, like they'll be like, what do you do? And I'm like, oh, research. Like, how do you say that? I don't know. Is there a word in Farsi that is that would translate to research?

Speaker 2

Yeah. Um, because I mean in in because also in Iran, um, you do have grats, you know, grats label education and like stuff like that.

Speaker 5

So no, no, we do too.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 5

So what do you so then like the the tr I've even Google search this? The translation that I found translates to knowledge.

Speaker 2

Oh, interesting. Okay.

Speaker 5

Like, yeah.

Speaker 2

No, we do have a word for it. It's what is it? I mean, tell I'm not mistaken, it's Pajuish.

Speaker 5

Okay, I don't know.

Speaker 2

It basically means research.

Speaker 5

That's so it's so I think there's such a barrier when you're a first gen student, yeah, going on this path of PhD and not being like 100% able to talk to your family about it.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's it's very hard. Like every I think every single time I talk to my mom, she's like, what is it that you do again? Yeah, like what does that? I mean, I get it, like it's a very valid question. Like, what is it that you want to like if you're looking for a job, what are you gonna do? Right. And I'm like, research. Research. Exactly. That's like the simplest way I can say it.

Speaker 5

I told you I mean, it's cool that like I teach, and so for me, I just go like, oh, I don't even touch on the research topic at all. I just go out and teach. But my parents have a hard time understanding like what I do. Like they've they have a idea of what a college class looks like, you know, like kids sitting in the class, teacher talking. And so for them, my entire master's and PhD has been tater tater sitting in a class, like taking a class. And that's not at all what PhD is, right? Like how when did you stop taking classes?

Speaker 2

It was just the first year.

Speaker 5

Yeah, I think I did because I was teaching, I did two or three years of classes. I think it's my first classes in two years.

Speaker 2

A year and a half of classes, I think.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I don't remember anymore.

Speaker 5

Yeah, it's like a year, a year, it should be like a year or two years. Yeah, something like that. I had to slow my pace because I was taking classes at two institutions and I was teaching. So I took a while, but I haven't taken classes in two years.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean, I haven't taken classes in many years in many years.

Speaker 5

So my parents are like four years now. They'll be like, Where are you going? What are you doing? And I'm like, I'm going to school. Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know what to say here. Because I'm going to a meeting about research, or yeah, we're working on a huge Department of Justice grant right now. Um, and how do you say that? You know, so huge barrier, I think, coming from first generation.

Speaker 2

Oh, 100%. My mom is just like, oh, she's always studying in the room.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Studying.

Speaker

You're it's not wrong. Studying, though. You know what I mean? Like it's non-steady.

Speaker 5

I'm actually trying to contribute to that studying. I'm trying to contribute to that. Yeah, for sure. I think I I encourage a lot of, I think for me, having the first generation label has been helpful because then I can phrase it in terms for other people coming up. Like, this is something you should talk to your parents about now when you have less of the jargony terms on you, you know, when you're like starting out fresh, like, oh, I did a class project. Oh, what was it on? Oh, we looked at like how this and this interact with each other. Those are easier terms, and then you try to explain it. Like, take them with you, I guess is what I'm trying to say. Is like the best way I've been able to cover the gap of being a first generation student with my family, at least, you know. Um all right. Is there anything you want to add about this PhD topic before we kind of switch over?

Speaker 2

Do I want to add anything else? Yeah, would you tell other people to get a PhD? What's that?

Speaker 1

Would you tell other people to get a PhD? Depends.

Speaker 2

I don't discourage it. Okay, I don't discourage it because I think it's it's not just the research part, actually, it's also at the personal level, you grow so much, it really destroys your mental health. But at the same time, like whatever you know, strengthen you, weakens you too. Like it's like I think even at the personal level, um, it's very helpful. Yeah. And you you get to see how much you can actually take on. Yeah, that's true. Um, a lot of times, and also it's very self-motivating. Like, PH is something that it can take uh almost as many years as you wanted it to take. Um that's true, and it's very self-motivating, like you have to be on top of you know your stuff. Yeah, but also like so. That's why I don't disgourage it. Like, I think it's it's good, and also I think just getting exposed to critical thinking is something I always advocate for. Yeah, like try to be critical, like try to ask questions, yeah, even the dumbest question. Sometimes I in my head I'm like, this is a very dumb question, and I sometimes even say it because it's something that we I mean, even within my feel like it's fine. I'm like, I might have it, like this might be a silly question, but like blah blah blah, and that's like whatever question that is. And they're like, oh my god, that's actually a really good question, and they don't know how to answer it because sometimes the simplest and the silliest questions are actually the deepest, yeah. Um, but also as as we were we were talking right now, the other thing that I wanted to point out about PhD is that how much undervalued it is. Like people don't view it as working, even though you're working. Okay, but but that's true, but they don't see it as working. They they're like, oh, you're just like this was your choice to like continue and go and you know study and try to do research, blah blah blah. It's not as valued as someone who gone and started like an actual job.

Speaker 4

Yeah, this is true.

Speaker 2

So I think yeah, this is this is something that I've always kind of struggled with, and I think a lot of PhD students actually struggle struggle with.

Speaker 5

Well, yeah, there was a huge strike um two, three years ago. There was a huge strike from the grad students and all the UCs. Oh yeah, for being underpaid, for being underpaid, um, for being underpaid and overworked.

Speaker 2

I mean that, and also I guess I meant I mean that is 100% true, but I meant it more at societal level, like people's perception of it.

Speaker 5

Well, I think that comes for people's perception of it though. And and uh and I'll argue that, or not argue, but I'll just include here that the the students that were striking a part of the contract that they were trying to get was to get a full-time pay, which is essentially what you're saying, yeah. Like I work as a full-time student. Like, uh you know that meme that's like I I can't do a nine to five, so I work 12 to 12. Like that. Yeah, that's literally all that's PhD, like 50% getting paid. Yeah. Um, and I'll say the same thing for teaching. Like, I can't complain. I've never been able to complain because as a TA, I have made more monthly than I make as a full-time, not full-time, sorry, part-time lecturer on campus. Like, I make more working 10 hours a week as a TA than I make teaching two of my completely my own classes. Right. So for me, like I could never complain about that. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2

Like I was always two different educational systems.

Speaker 5

Two different educational systems that plays a role. This is true, but still, like looking at the value of the work, like 10 hours a week TA ing is incomparable to the fact that I created two classes of my own, right? And I'm teaching them. Um but in any case, like they were arguing for a full-time pay as just for being a doctoral student, you know what I mean? Um, and I think that comes from society's perception of it. Because if society had a better perception of research of grad students of graduate education, then we wouldn't have this struggle of pay me more.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Right?

Speaker 2

A hundred percent.

Speaker 5

Yeah, yeah. Anyways, on to better and more fun topics. I think I could talk about PhD forever, and I don't want to do that to you. So no, it's okay.

Speaker 2

I love it. I mean, clearly.

Speaker 5

Clearly.

Speaker 2

I mean, we love we love talking about that. We love talking. Um, we love talking.

Speaker 5

I do love talking about that.

Speaker 2

And PhD has shaped us too. So much. It really has. I mean, honestly, in terms of like the the the topic of PhD for me, it's not about academia, like just doing like the core hardcore science, like that's a part of it. Yeah, but it's just no, there's so much that goes into it.

Speaker 5

That's not that's not just the workload that you do. You know what I mean? You you do learn a lot about yourself and how to manage your own self. Um, but yeah, more fun stuff. More fun stuff before we go into more fun stuff, actually. Give tips. Um, my tip is don't online shop. You should shop in person at a mall because it's just so much more fun. Yeah. Um, a little coffee in your hand, a little sweet tree, music in your ears. Oh my god, perfect, perfect day. I'll be your stylist. Um, now on to fun topics. I want to talk just a little bit about our friendship because I think it's very unique. Um, we met in 2019 doing the summer research program at UCSD, which is called Stars, by the way. Um, and we were dorming on we were dorming on campus. One of the coolest experiences for me was stars. Like that summer to me was uh honestly beyond like what I expected it to be at all. I also applied on accident. Like my best friend at the time was applying to research programs at SD and at Berkeley and like a bunch of places. Or she was applying to Berkeley, and I didn't want to apply to the same school as her because that wouldn't be problematic. So I applied to SD. Yeah. So I applied to SD and I got in and I remember thinking, like, what am I gonna get there? And people are gonna be like, what the heck? I was already in my master's program, so I knew a little bit about research, but I I didn't know as much. And it was just I got to UCSC's campus and I was like, this is the greatest place on earth.

Speaker 2

Such a beautiful campus, such a beautiful campus. San Diego's is so beautiful, incredible weather all the time.

Speaker 5

Yeah, yeah. Like next to the beach, next to the beach.

Speaker

Oh my god, La Jolla.

Speaker 5

Like fancy place, the fanciest place, the great food all the time, good coffee. Like, we had such a good summer that summer. And mind you, me and Zara were not even dorming together. I was in a different dorm with four other girls. Yeah, you were in a different dorm with four other girls. You were adopted by us, and I don't even remember how this started. I just know I just remember you being there all the time, but I don't remember how this started at all.

Speaker 2

I mean, the funny thing is that um even before we met, when I pulled up to the dorm to like, you know, take this the our stuff out, take it to my my room or whatever, I saw you. I mean, later I like I got introduced to you, but I saw you, you had your car park, and I saw this like really like strong badass person like taking her stuff and like kind of like you know, walking very confidently and proud. I was like, she's such a cool person. I kind of want to get to know.

Speaker

I just want to know. Are you serious?

Speaker 2

It was so crazy, yes. And then cute. And then later that day, I met one of your roommate, and then I got introduced to you. And then we adopted you. Yeah, you guys adopted me.

Speaker 5

They literally just kept you. I'm like, I I was never at my dorm. You were never at your dorm, and I learned so much from you that summer because um, well, one of the main things actually, you kickstarted a lot of this, by the way. A lot of this meaning the yoga. Um, was I was not a gym girly.

Speaker 1

Oh my god.

Speaker 5

All whatsoever. I I never like I don't think I think like stepped into a gym like four times before that by force. We go, we went to the gym every day.

Speaker 2

Every single day? We went to the gym every single day. Every single day.

Speaker 5

You would walk to the gym and then you would look at me and you would go, that was our warm-up, because it was like a 30-minute walk uphill. Yeah, that was our warm up, so we don't have to do like warm-up. You can do this, and then you would teach me. Yeah, you would literally teach me what to do at the gym. It was so much fun, so much fun. And then I came back and I actually got a gym membership, and it wasn't, and I literally only stopped going because uh COVID happened and they closed all the gyms. Yeah, and then like a year later I started doing yoga because I was like, I need to do something, but I can't I can't go to the gym without Zara.

Speaker

Like, I'm so glad that I was gonna do it. What am I gonna do? I can't go to the gym without who's gonna tell me I'm like doing it wrong, you know? Like I can't go to the gym.

Speaker 2

But yeah, whatever I you're pretty good. Yeah, I tried. I mean, in my in my uh workout journey, I try to, I mean, I'm a scientist by heart, so I try to like learn things on the proper way, and like people who are even the influencers that I was following for like workout, they were either having PhD in in the field or like they would they were talking about the science and then what is it that they do? Yes, instead of those like trendy stuff, yeah. That's true. Doesn't get that's true.

Speaker 5

You were you were f yes, you and you have a very good way of teaching too.

Speaker 3

Like, oh I'm so glad.

Speaker 5

Yeah, because I I get I sometimes I get super like uncomfortable with people trying to teach me something. I don't know why. I just do. I'm just like, oh, okay, like I'm gonna stop doing it. I think because not everyone's a good teacher, and like I agree, it comes off like a reprimand rather than like I'm just trying to cur constructive feedback. Yeah, but I think you made that whole like experience for me so comfortable. And I think the best part of it actually was that we would go eat after.

Speaker 2

Yes, we would go eat after because I would not define myself of food just because I work out, no, like it was like yes, great meals, great food, great food after we're you made me so many, so much food at home. I did, I made pizza pasta, pizza, I have never exactly I've never like ate pizza pasta. Pizza pasta it's my invention making.

Speaker 5

Little pepperoni literally so cute pizza pasta pasta with tomato sauce and cheese and we're fancy.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we have a bonding moment. I know, and you made me watch Friends for the first time. I did, yeah.

Speaker 6

I've never so nice of me.

Speaker 2

I've always I mean I've always heard of it because Friends is such an American show. It's such an American yeah. If you don't know Friends, it's like you you're not included in half of the conversation. Yeah, it's so crazy. I know, and you made me watch it. I'm so glad. Me too. And I watched it, I think, hundred times after. Are you serious?

Speaker 5

That's great. Yeah, I think a key thing for me though, the reason I bring all this up, like it's all fun and stuff, but the key thing for me is actually that you live in OC. You lived in OC, and I lived in LA, so we had a long distance relationship. Yes, for so many years. For so and still, like we've been friends ever since that. It's been 2019, what, seven years?

Speaker 3

Wow, we've been friends for seven years. That's insane. It's almost a decade, almost a decade, yeah.

Speaker 5

And um, what do you think from your perspective? I guess was a key contributing factor of us just being able to keep that friendship going for so long because so many people could just do that.

Speaker 2

Yeah, I mean it happened to I mean, it has happened to both of us, I guess. Yes, that you know, after a while, like people are just like out. I think, in my opinion, I think one of the key factors was that we didn't expect a lot from each other, and I think we still don't. Like it's like very like natural, genuine. It's not like oh my god, if you haven't called me like in a week or in a month, even like I can't call you just because I haven't called you or texted you in that time.

Speaker 5

Not at all.

Speaker 2

It's like a lot of mutual understanding between us that you know sometimes just life gets in the way. Um, and especially like at the beginning, I think, and we were we talked a lot, like we would I think we were good and we are still good at having like that constructive criticism toward each other without the other person take it too personally because we know that the other person is just you know, they care about our growth, our personal growth.

Speaker 5

What would you say is like I completely agree with you? Um, and what would you say is one of the key things to keeping any friendship like alive and well?

Speaker 2

Um, I think most person wants it to like they would want. I mean, with any type of relationships, like the two person has to want it to work. Yeah. Um, and I think, you know, not having a lot of expectations because like what I've hear a lot of times from people who have, you know, bad beef with someone, it's a lot of times, oh I I thought they were like this, this, this, this, but then they turn out to be that, that, that. Like instead of instead of having this, like creating this persona in your head about someone, try to like not have that and try to get to know the person and you know, just just allow them to be. And I think that allows for deeper friendships. Like a lot of the long-term friendships that I have now, it it came from that. That them and also myself learned from a lot of my friends too. Yeah, that I need to like let per people be and like meet them where they are. Sometimes they're like really, you know, active and they try to, you know, ha hang out with you or like talk to you. And there are times that they just can't, and it's not a personal thing. It's not a personal thing.

Speaker 5

We're not in high school. Don't take it personally, yeah. It's literally not a personal thing. Yeah, I think that's one of the coolest things. I agree with you, and I think that's one of the coolest things about us, and also about like the friends that you have and the for the people in your in your life and the people in my life, is that really everybody kind of just gets that. Like that I'm living a life, and as are you. I want you in my life, and you want me in your life. And to make that happen, we both have to understand that the expectations have to be like realistic, you know, like I can't be there at every waking moment. I have all these together.

Speaker 2

Exactly. Yeah, and we don't live to like close to close by to be like, oh, let's go grab a coffee. I have like an hour to kill. Yeah. And you have an hour to kill. Let's go grab a coffee.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and even with my friends that that are close by, because actually I think you're probably my only friend that lives outside of LA. I must really like you.

Speaker

I'm so bad.

Speaker 5

You're you're probably my only friend that lives outside of LA. Um, if I have any friends that live outside of LA and I can't remember right now, I'm really sorry. But right now, special as I right now, the only person I'm thinking about is Zara. Okay. Anyways. And shh. Oh, very romantic.

Speaker

Yeah, but what was I gonna say? Hold on. It doesn't matter anymore. No, it does. Oh, I'm the special one.

Speaker 5

That was the takeaway. Yes, you are special. And even with my friends that live in close proximity who are like, oh, I have an hour to kill, like, sometimes I can't make that hour. And the expectation has to be like, yeah, you might have an hour to kill. That doesn't mean I do. And that's okay. That's not personal. I want to see you, but if I can't see you, yeah, like it has to be okay. And I think we've been really good about like trying to make time for each other, and like we've always been there in the big moments, like your your PhD acceptance party, my PhD acceptance party, like all the main things that have happened. Like, I remember, and we don't call each other ever, which is great. I'm cool with that. It's okay. I'd rather see you than call you. Yes, but I remember this one time like we don't ever call each other, okay? Like ever. And I remember this one time you called me. We don't actually like each other. No, like we text, but we don't call. And um there's one time she called me. I was having dinner with my family. Yeah, and you call she called me and I was like, Oh shit, something's bad. Something has happened must have happened for you to call me. Um, and I think knowing your friend, I'm not gonna disclose what, but just knowing your friend, I was right by the way, just knowing your friend enough to know certain things like that, yeah is also what keeps her close, right? Like, I'm not gonna ignore that call because I know if you're calling me, there's some reason for you to call me. It's not like random, oh, I just wanted to chat. No. And knowing the person you're friends with well enough to know that is what also keeps a relationship really strong.

Speaker 2

A hundred percent agree.

Speaker 5

I love having you in my life. I love having you in my life. Um, one thing I love talking to you about, actually, everything. I'm not talking too about everything, but one of the things that has been really cool because you have such a unique perspective on everything, I think, um, has been just understanding how you deal with relationships. Um, and I think it can be kind of hard to be in a relationship and also be in your PhD program. So I how do you feel like romantic relationships I'm talking about specifically at this moment have shaped you? And how do you feel like you're how do you feel like that's happened during your PhD program? Have you been able to handle both of those things? Because they're so huge, both of those things, you know?

Speaker 2

No, it's such a good question. Um it's almost very like almost it, it's it's almost hard to do anything while you're doing your PhD. Like even sleeping properly, it's yeah, it becomes hard. Uh I think romantic relationships has always been a mirror that I had to look at myself. Okay. Like a lot of times, because like I have now come to this understanding, especially like going through therapies and stuff like that. I come to this understanding that when we pick our friendships or relationships, especially with romantic relationships, we are picking with our inner child and all the traumas that comes with that. Okay. So I've gone through a lot of different relationships, a lot of good ones, a lot of bad ones. And most of them were basically me trying to face like if I had, you know, certain insecurities, or if I had an anger issue, or if I was in pay impatient, and then like trying to, I kept facing them through different relationships until one day I was like, I need to go to therapy because I think there are there's a because I saw a pattern. Um, and I was like, oh, I need to go and like find out like why do I see these patterns? And because I do I do see it. I think one of the good things I guess about myself is that I'm quite self-aware. Like I see things, and I know like even if I'm doing something wrong, like I know this is like whatever I've done here, it's wrong.

Speaker 4

Yeah.

Speaker 2

And whatever has been the reaction has been wrong, but like I know what I've done wrong too. And throughout relationship, I think I kept like facing that, like a lot of you know, the personal traumas that I had to face. And it gets to a point that like a lot of times people do put that, you know, the rose colored glasses on and just try to like move move along, or they're they don't even like see it as a problem, like they just ignore it. People just exactly you keep getting, you know, you keep feeding the the the trouble, the darkness that you have. Yeah, and so you just keep going with it. But then there are times that you're like, and I think every person at some point in their life, at whatever age they are, they they have to face that.

Speaker 5

Yeah.

Speaker 2

I think that's like just part of growing up.

Speaker 5

Do you think therapy has helped you face that? Oh, a lot. Yeah, a lot. And therapy's, I'm assuming, yeah, not super um accepted in Iranian culture.

Speaker 2

It's not widely accepted, no. Um, in my family, it wasn't ever like, oh, are you crazy that you want to go to therapy? That type of situation. But in the culture, in our culture, it's not as accepted. Yeah. Um, people aren't as comfortable. And they think it's it's not being comfortable, but also they think that there has to be something so wrong with you that you would go to therapy, right? Exactly.

Speaker 5

And clearly you do not agree with those parameters. Yeah, yeah. I mean, clearly, I'm in therapy. Just wanted to set the record straight. Clearly, you don't think there's something so wrong with you.

Speaker 2

No, no. I don't need to wait until I'm on the verge of going to mental institutions, right?

Speaker 5

I think it's very helpful. Um, I do think there are other things that people can also do, but in any, I'm neither here nor there about therapy. I think it could be very useful. I think that some people can very much benefit from it. I think that some people can use it as a tactic to do in their issues. And I think that you need to spend a really long time or a decent amount of time finding the right therapist for you. As someone who teaches about therapy for ethnic minorities, like I know that a lot of the things that traditional therapists are taught don't work for this community, which is why I'm neither here nor there about it. Because I know that it cannot work and I know that it can be ineffective for a lot of people. Um, but just anything that you can do that makes personal growth happen, I think is really beneficial.

Speaker 2

Yeah.

Speaker 5

Yeah. Um, what do you think is one thing that people can bring into a relationship that's like crucial?

Speaker 2

And it can be any relationship, it doesn't have to be a romantic relationship, but I think one thing that's like really actually hard to bring into is that the self-awareness. I would say self-awareness because I mean, because like a lot of times you can go into a relationship, self-awareness and clear communication, not just talking, but like actually communicating, meaning that you speak, another person actually listens, and then the when when the person is speaking, you'll actually listen and you know try to like understand what they're saying, yeah, and not try to talk back, but try to even if you're trying to like ask questions, try to deeper understand where they're coming from. Because a lot of times, like you get into fights and stuff like that, and if you actually sit down and not be defensive, you can see, oh, like I can see like whatever like trauma has been activated. So I can, you know, it's it it takes time. So do you think that we have clear communication? Yeah, I think that was one of the one of the things that I said earlier. Oh, you did say that. I'm sorry. We have a lot of yeah, we have really clear communication.

Speaker 5

I think we do too. I have this really good um video that I'm gonna link for everyone to watch, but it's this really good video about communication because everybody has a different communication style and there's like various levels to it. And we talk about this in one of the classes that I teach, and it's these two little guys, like they're emojis, whatever they are. I don't know, they're like animations, and they're like throwing a little like clay ball at each other, and it's to describe communication, right? Like when I throw the clay ball, my hands have touched it, so it's a different shape. When you grab it, you squish it, so your hands have touched it, and you like play around with it before you throw it back. Yeah, so in any situation, and the the ball represents communication here clearly. So when I'm talking, I have an idea of what I'm trying to say. I throw it at you, you grasp it, but you might understand something different than what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 6

Yeah.

Speaker 5

And when you give it back to me, that might be something different. So it's just being very aware in these situations, essentially, is like it's not an easy thing to do. I think people toss around like, oh, we have good communication as like a like an extra blurb, like something you write on your resume, but it's not an easy thing to do because you really have to understand someone to do that well.

Speaker 2

And you have to understand yourself first to be able to understand the other person. It was so interesting. Yeah, other day we were talking with some friends, and one of the kind of the subject that came up was, oh, why is it that, you know, a lot of times people go into relationships and like um, and she was specifically talking about guys that, you know, come into relationship and they give you the promise of like, oh, I want a long-term relationship and get married, blah, blah, blah. And then they end up not doing that and yeah, kind of breaking up and going with someone else. And, you know, we were kind of talking about that, and I was saying that basically my perspective on this was that um not every person, but I think a lot of people, it's not that they didn't mean the promise that they made initially. It's just that when they made that promise, they were not self-aware enough to know what is it that they're saying. And then throughout relationship, they probably, you know, kept facing themselves and realized, oh, it's not actually what I wanted to do. Yeah. Or it's not the shape that I wanted it to be anymore.

Speaker 5

It's not that so interesting.

Speaker 2

Yeah, it's not that like they you know made false pomp promises from the like beginning, like inherently wanting to just say this as yeah, just a way of getting the girl. Like, I don't know, there's probably some people who do that, yeah. They do that, but I think for a lot of people it's just that they're not they don't understand it enough.

Speaker 4

Yes.

Speaker 2

Because like people who understand, they don't do like they like they say this is something like that, but then they have like a lot of criteria and they and that communication comes in place that you can see that the person has thought through this deeply and trying to figure it out.

Speaker 5

I think another thing that really plays into that is like people wanting just to be chosen, not choosing, but just being chosen. Like someone comes to you and says, I'm gonna marry you. And the and I get it, it's a great grand statement. Like, that's a an awesome thing to tell someone. Well, if I if you're being honest, but also on the flip side of that is someone just accepting that and being like, I'm finally chosen, and not thinking about whether or not they're choosing that person too.

Speaker 1

Oh, 100%.

Speaker 5

It's a huge thing that I've seen is like people get crushed because they feel like they were chosen and their person who was choosing them left them, but they don't ever think about the fact were you also choosing that person, or were you just um like taken by the fact that you were chosen?

Speaker 2

Exactly. It's a huge exactly. And like, did you know the criteria that it takes to choose someone and to someone choose you? Yeah, like why would someone choose you? You have to uh also understand your own value.

Speaker 5

You have to understand your own value. Like, what do you bring to the table? That's not and it's not to be like judgmental or anything, but what do you bring to the table, right? And and what does your partner bring to the table that you actually like and and and want? You have to choose that person too.

Speaker

Exactly.

Speaker 5

I say the same thing about PhD programs.

Speaker 1

I would say I do. Same thing, actually.

Speaker 5

You want to be chosen so bad to go to grad school, but are you choosing that school too? Because you're in a relationship with that school. You're in a relationship with that program. Are you also choosing the program? Are you just happy to be chosen? Are you just happy that a school is giving you an acceptance? Or are you like, yeah, no, that's the school I want to go to because of X, Y, and Z. What's the criteria?

Speaker 2

Oh, 100%. I actually did that. Yeah, you did. Yeah. Well, no, because like after my first experience in the lab and the initial at the first lab that I was talking about, um, I did I did rotation project with my current lab, and then towards the end of it, I just you know sat down and I still have the word document. Wow that I want that I was going to have a conversation with my PI and say, these are the reasons why I want to be here, and these are the reasons why you should have me here. Wow. Because this is my value, this is the value that you're bringing me. That's amazing. I never got to say all of that because he was like, I want you because of you know, he already knew you already assessed.

Speaker 5

I was like, okay, great. You already assessed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's amazing. And then you know that you're mute in this mutually like beneficial relationship. And this goes for all things, like friendships, relationships, grad school, it doesn't even matter. Um, wow, that was good.

Speaker 1

I love that.

Speaker 5

I heard you have some questions for me. I do. Okay, go ahead. Um, I love for the should we flip chairs too?

Speaker 1

I'm just kidding.

Speaker

Okay, it's my better side. Okay, I actually don't have that. I don't have that. Why is that bad? That's good. Both illusional.

Speaker 2

What do you think? I mean, I don't think once asked a photographer. I was like, and it's like, oh, what is your better side? I'm like, I don't know. I don't I don't think I don't have both sides are great. Like, what do you think I have a better side? Both sides are great. What was asking the photographer actually?

Speaker 5

So no, that was just a joke. She's like, that's my first question. Do you have a better side?

Speaker 2

Do you have a better side? Take it as you wish. No, my first question was um, so you are actually one of the like most positive, like genuinely positive person I know in my in my life. Um, and I always actually wonder, I don't I don't think I've ever asked you this question. That's why I wanted to bring it up here. Was there on camera? Gotcha. Go ahead. Um was there an experience in your life that has shaped this personality? Or were you like since birth, you were just you came out with a positive.

Speaker 5

You know, you know, that's a great question. You haven't ever asked me this. No, um, not particularly. I have I think I've always been pretty positive. Um, like I've always been happy. I've always been a happy, go-lucky kid, as far as I can remember. But I was very um depressed in like high school. I was so unwell. And I think coming out of that, it was like something I was like, I never want to be like that again. Like I never want to have to experience that again. And and a lot of things after that have helped me stay positive. One of the key things is my mom. Like my mom, you've met my mom. Yes, my mom is like my mom is me, but elevated. Like, yes, she's literally me, but 10 times more positive and like happy go lucky, which is insane to say.

Speaker 2

But she just shines too.

Speaker 5

She just shines, she's just like a little like sun, like all day. And I aim to be like that, and I think in a lot of ways I am like my mom. So so I get a lot of that from her. So seeing her be that way through a lot of things that she's been through and whatever has helped a lot. And then just being able to have a community around me that constantly reminds me of that, like Sarah will do that to me all the time. Like, okay, this is a bad situation, but take a breath and like how do we see something brighter?

Speaker 7

Yeah.

Speaker 5

And me knowing that I never want to go back to that being that way. If I'm bad, everybody around me doesn't need to be bad. So, how do I be good for the people around me? How do I remain positive to bring light to people around me? Because that also makes me happy. Like that fuels me. If I can fuel you, that'll fuel me. If I can come into your house and make pizza with a wine bottle, like and that makes you happy, then that'll make me happy.

Speaker

Very happy.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and that's and it was so good, like such a good pizza. True story, actually. True story. We didn't have a rolling pin, so we made it with the wine bottle. And if we can do that, like, yeah, clip a video of that. But if I can do that and I'm not feeling great, but I can do that for you and that makes you happy, and I can see that for you, then that'll make me happy. And that's just how I try to live my life. Does that answer your question?

Speaker 2

No, it does. Okay, and I've seen that, like I've seen that even like you just go get a coffee and just so you're so positive that the person just starts telling you all the secrets of their life. Yeah, you try to find all the positive things.

Speaker 5

Yeah, and I think when you're unwell, you can't see them yourself. So if I can do that for someone, I just try to. I like people and I try to be, I try to stay in liking people. There are some people I don't like, but I try mostly to stay in liking people, you know?

Speaker 2

Yeah. I mean, I think it's normal to not like like some people. I mean, you can't like every single person, you can't like everyone, yeah.

Speaker 5

And not everyone can like you, so I just have to accept that. But I like being positive.

Speaker

It's fun, it's fun to be like it's fun to have someone who's that positive in your life. Yeah, like it's so life is so exciting.

Speaker 3

Like, what do you mean? What do you mean?

Speaker 2

Um I love that. So another question that I had was um, is there something that you're unlearning?

Speaker 5

Um, yes, I am unlearning, um, feeling guilty about things, feeling guilty about doing things that like bring me joy. I think a lot of the time, I think guilt is like the number one motivator in ethnic families. Thank you.

Speaker 3

Ding ding ding. Ding ding ding.

Speaker 5

And I don't think, I think, you know, they don't know their parents, the parents were the first sign, they don't know, they don't do it intentionally. I don't know, whatever their reasons are, it's not I'm not blaming parents. I'm just saying that it is a number one motivator in ethnic yeah, culture and um guilt and shame. And I'm definitely trying at this point in my life to like unlearn feeling guilty about doing things that just bring me joy. Like, I don't want to feel bad if I want to take a vacation. I just want to take a vacation, I shouldn't be allowed to do that. So it's been hard because I think it's my initial reaction is always like I know I should feel guilty about this, and then I find why I'm gonna feel guilty about it, and then I ruminate in it. So it's definitely been hard, but I think I'm getting a little better. I think the more you indulge and like the more people are accepting of that around you, you know, the more people show you that that's okay, the more people around you do things like that that are okay, the more you can unlearn a behavior.

Speaker 2

I love that. Yeah, that's a that's a that's actually a really good thing to unlearn. And yeah, and also just going to PhD, PhD itself gives you a lot of guilt too.

Speaker 5

Yeah, PhD gives you a lot of guilt. I mean, I was like told not to work, and I was like, okay, so now I feel guilty about working, like I have to work, but now I feel guilty about working because of my like program is saying don't work, you know. Um, yeah, a lot of things. PhD gives you a lot of a lot of guilt. It's gonna I think just even going to PhD as an ethnic minority is like guilt because it's like you're leaving your family. Like I wanted to go to I wanted to go to SD. SD was my dream school too. And when I got rejected, it was like, why would you even apply there? It's so far away.

Speaker 2

You're gonna leave your family of drive.

Speaker 5

Yeah, like how d you're gonna leave your family? I like I'm not flying to New York, you know, like it's San Diego, but yeah, it was very like it was the same thing.

Speaker 2

Yeah, we deal with a lot of guilt. That's actually something that I'm trying to unlearn too. It's a different it's a hard one. In like in so many aspects of my life. I'm trying to unlearn that.

Speaker 5

It's a very hard one because it's to drill deep. 100%. Drill deep.

Speaker 2

I forgot my last question. I'm sorry.

Speaker 5

It's okay, she's just gonna check her last question.

Speaker 2

Oh, actually, this this was the something I I really wanted to ask you. Okay. Um, what is it? Something that life is teaching you right now.

Speaker 5

That's good because this relates back to something I've actually talked about for the last two episodes. We've been talking about this, but um, to love myself, to learn how to love myself. I talk about this. I've talked, I've been talking about this a lot recently, but I I think it's not something we're taught because we're taught taught guilt guilt and shame so often that we forget what constitutes us like showing yourself love and kindness. Um, what are the actions that you take that are that are pure love and kindness to yourself? Because you are the only person that lives with you all day long, all the time for the rest of your life, doesn't matter if you've had a high school sweetheart, doesn't matter if you've been with your partner for 15, 20 years, like only you've been with you your whole life, right? How do you take care of yourself that just shows your self-love and kindness? And I think when we talk about like self-care and love yourself and all that, people get a mistaken with like, I'm gonna go like do a spa and like this, that all of that's great. Like you should do that, but there's a deeper layer to this, which is like, how are you talking to yourself on a daily basis? How do you feed yourself on a daily basis? And I mean like I literally mean feed yourself. Like, are you eating out every day? Because that's not actually love and kindness. If you aren't taking time to like, I've been cooking a lot recently, but if you're not taking the time to like make yourself a meal, sit down and eat your meal and enjoy your meal. Like don't like eat it on the rush and you know, like sit, take 30 minutes out of your day. It's not gonna kill you. Nothing you do in that those 30 minutes are gonna be crazy. And just eat your meal and watch something and enjoy, like enjoy your food, take a walk, have a slow morning. Like, there are these little things that we don't do that are actually love and kindness to ourselves, and we mistake it for like one day crazy like spending. That's not the same, it's not the same, right? Are you saving money? Because that's also loving yourself, right? There's these there's these little things. Like, if you sit in front of your computer when you're analyzing a data set and you're like, I'm so stupid, I felt I messed up, I messed up, I'm so stupid. It's okay. Like, what happened realistically? What happened? Nothing. So all you're doing is like allowing your body to hear these really bad things. I'm talking a lot, but my entire point is to say No, I actually love I love you talking. Good thing I have a podcast. Um, my entire point is. just to say like I've been practicing a lot and I think that just with the situation that I'm in right now, which sorry for another day, but just with the situation she knows that I'm in right now, I think I've been practicing that a lot more. And I feel like a lot of things come because you don't know how to show yourself true love and care. And so that's what I've been learning from life, I guess. I love that. That's a beautiful thing to learn. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for asking me questions. I think that was cute. I think I'm gonna make all my guests do that because I'm gonna steal your idea and make everybody do it. I like it. I like it a lot. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll cite you how about that I'm gonna um wrap us up with my last and final question which is what do you do to balance all the crazy things that happen in your life your PhD, your relationships, your family, driving from LA to OC and San Diego all the time. Like what are some things that you do to just balance yourself out?

Speaker 2

I mean the the the honest answer is that I don't I don't think it's just I mean not balance to the sense of like like like quite balance. I think it's just um sometimes you have to sacrifice one for the other and overall when you look at the big picture there is a balance in that um I think one of the one of the key things with me has always been not to be one dimensional in life. And for me having like I I see a lot of people in academia that they only hang out with people who are in academia. Yeah and older friends or older circ circle is just people from academia and for me to have a balance in life in general I try to have people from all different aspects of my life because I I have a lot of interests that are not in academia. Yes I love to dance like I have my dance crew like uh community um there's like so many of these things that I try to incorporate in my life that like in the in the long run they will keep my life balanced because I don't have to always be exposed to one thing and only the stress of PhD. I can actually you know during the week I have hours that I'm not even thinking about my PhD. I'm just like having fun and doing different things. I don't like I mean I don't think I figured out how to be like completely balanced like as an Aqual but overall I think big picture just like having people from different you know fields and areas in your life that really helps you.

Speaker 5

And just having different interests exactly yeah hobbies. I actually think that's a really interesting um and inspirational thing about you because you really do have a lot of interests and they're very varying and for people to see someone who's in PhD in bioengineering also doing this and that and the other and like living because at the end of the day like you're not giving up your life for PhD like you're living you're enjoying you're experiencing that is balance like that is the most that's the best way to balance is like have a little bit of everything going to PhD does not mean that you stop doing everything else. Yeah absolutely and you bring different perspectives in it yeah and you enjoy yeah yeah thank you so much for coming on this episode I had such a good time I know I can't believe it's it's ending I know we should do it more if we should do more see we should do more to hear first.

Speaker 1

We should do it we should do it.

Speaker 5

Give tips on online shopping yes more fun or even in person shopping I like in person shopping we'll do that next we'll do that next girly stuff thank you for watching this episode if you liked it please make sure to like and subscribe and follow us on any streaming platform see you guys next time