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Tatev Talks
Divested Psychology, Creative Masochism, and The Powers That Be, with Dr. Asil Yassine
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In Episode 7, Tatev sits down with Dr. Asil Yassin — UCLA-trained psychologist and founder of Dynamic Dreaming — to talk about her path from middle school classroom to PhD, researching Lebanon in real time as the war unfolded, and why mainstream therapy training isn't built for ethnic minorities. We also get into joy as resistance, community, and the small daily containers that keep us going.
00:00 Welcome — meeting Dr. Asil Yassin
01:25 From the middle school classroom to UCLA's PhD
05:30 Going clinical mid-program: how Asil added therapy hours
09:00 Researcher vs. therapist: two kinds of presence
11:30 When a student opens up: holding the weight
13:30 Studying Lebanon in real time as the war unfolds
17:00 Telling the whole narrative, not just the appeasing parts
21:00 Capitalism, PhD timelines, and taking the scenic route
28:30 Why mainstream therapy training fails ethnic minorities
32:30 Inside Dynamic Dreaming — how Asil's practice is different
35:30 Learning to trust yourself in big decisions
39:30 "Tell me something good": joy as resistance
43:30 Community, recognition, and acts of resistance
49:30 Spaces invested in liberation vs. spaces invested in civility
53:30 Movement, seasons, and containers for self-care
57:30 Goodbyes & where to find Asil
Check Out Previous Episode!
https://youtu.be/lt8UF_JI-fs
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Guest: Asil Yassine’s PHD Divested Psychologist
Asil Yassine’s website:
https://dynamicdreaming.earth/
Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/dynamicdreaming?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
Asil's Dissertation:
https://escholarship.org/content/qt564295wh/qt564295wh.pdf
Credits:
Recorded and Produced by: @omnitherealproductions
Creative Consultant/Talent Booker: @diannneekara
Recorded at @mettameditationstudio
Music by @gorgeouzbeats
Welcome back to this episode of Thoughts of Talks, where we're joined with Dr. Asil Yassin. We're going to talk about psychology, PhD programs, and of course, Lebanon and Palestine. Hi, Asile. Hi, so good to see you. So good to see you too. I think the last time I saw you, you were just Asile, and now you're Dr. Asile. So congratulations. Thank you. How does it feel to be officially Dr. Asil Yassin?
SPEAKER_00It feels good. I mean, it's it's nice to like finish something that you started, you know, 40 years ago. You started something and then you finished him. But also, like, I I mean I learned a lot along the way and um met some really cool people. So it feels nice to be on the other side.
SPEAKER_02I'm so excited to be there with you. Very, very good. You'll be there so my God. We're counting down the days for you. I know, seriously. But I really wanted to start off this podcast talking a little bit about your PhD, kind of your path and how you got to this program. So your PhD is in uh human development and psychology, correct? And so, how'd you decide that this was the program you wanted to go to?
SPEAKER_00I was teaching middle school and high school at some point uh many, many years ago, and I went in because I care about kids, and then I left being like, oh my gosh, kids are so fascinating. Like the psychology of humans in general is just really fascinating. Anyone that's been in a classroom can tell you there's like a lot of interpersonal dynamics. A lot of my students were immigrants from Yemen and Iraq. And so there was a lot that was beyond just like education itself that got me really interested in psychology. Um, but I wasn't quite sure if I wanted to do a clinical route. So I stayed in the education route. I did a master's in education. I was interested in working with children of immigrants for a while. Um, and then by the time that master's wrapped up, I knew I wanted to do more one-on-one work with folks. And I was very, very interested in research. Um, and I tell everyone like, if you're interested in research, try to do a master's program first that has like a research component to it because it's kind of a low-stakes way to feel out whether you actually like research or not.
SPEAKER_02I say the same thing to my students, not even the master's program, just like take a research class. Just one class. Just one class, you'll know.
SPEAKER_00You'll know.
SPEAKER_02At the end of that one class, you either want to suffer and like you hate it and you can't stand it, or you're like, that was cool. I want to keep going. You'll know. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because I think humans are naturally curious, and like I think it's one thing to be like, I want to enter a space in which I can ask questions and answer questions and talk about articles and talk about things. Right. But that feels very different than like actual research where you have to validate results, you have to collect data. Like, that's a whole different ballgame.
SPEAKER_02It's it's just a whole different type of torture.
SPEAKER_00You know, it's like you have to like we're both a little masochistic, I think.
SPEAKER_02Just I don't think that anyone in a PhD program is not masochistic because like you can't, you can't enter a like maybe you don't know when you start it, but if you go all the way through, you are pure. You're a masochist. It's too it's torture, it's pure torture. It's like endless hours of work and it's indescribable. I always think about like how I would describe what it feels like to be in a PhD program and to someone who's not in it.
SPEAKER_00And there are no words because even when you're not working on your dissertation or your thesis, it's in your thinking about it in the shower, you're thinking about it when you're driving, you're thinking about it when you're flying all the time. But you're a creative masochist. That's like what I would offer to people. It's because at the end of the time, at the end of the day, you're creating something. You are starting with a question, and at some point you are gonna answer this question. And I do like that. Like, I like that there was a creative process to building out something that was yours that you felt passionate about. Um, and that's kind of what the masters revealed to me was like, okay, I read a ton of articles and discussed a ton of things, but I like I want to create something. Like, I actually do have a question that I want to answer. Um so I enrolled in UCLA's PhD program and yeah, just wrapped up in 2024. That's so nice.
SPEAKER_02Also, that's such a creative, that's such a uh a positive spin on being a masochist. It's like you're a creative masochist. I like that though. That's really that's really like a nice way to put it. That's beautiful.
SPEAKER_00I think most creatives are a masochist. Like in some way, you're just you're so passionate about something and you put in the hours that it almost drives you crazy. That you you you all feel a little bit crazy.
SPEAKER_02So the the PhD program at UCLA is not a clinical one. Correct. So how did you lean into the clinical aspect? Because you're doing your clinical hours right now, right?
SPEAKER_00I am. Yeah. So I actually didn't know. So I entered a PhD program at US UCLA. It was the it's within a school of education, but it was the human development and psychology track. And I loved that because I was like, okay, I can still stay in education. I still want to work with kids. I still want to collaborate with teachers and schools, but I really do want to understand like the psyche. Yeah. And it felt like a nice home to kind of be in both. If you can't tell already, I'm very like open-ended. Like I don't feel very strict about anything in particular. Um and then half, and I wasn't sure if I wanted to do clinical stuff. I really just wanted to stay in schools in the most part. So I wasn't even looking at hours or clinical sites or like whether the program would even lead me to that. And I found out about halfway through my program that like the actual track I was in was actually a clinical track. Wow. It wasn't marketed at all to us that it was a clinical track. So I was like, okay, great, maybe I will actually try on my clinical hat. I found a site that was ready to accept me as an intern. Um, I had to do a lot of work to find this site because, again, the program wasn't actually marketing itself as a clinical program, which is fine. I think they like really wanted people to just stay in academia. Um, but you know, to my former boss's credit, he took me in and was like, I know you're kind of an untraditional candidate for clinical work, but I'm willing to train you and show you the clinical world. So he's a psychologist, had a group practice in LA, took me under my wing, and we got all the paperwork figured out between UCLA and the state of California. Um, but that was the beginning of my clinical hours. It was like halfway through my program as I was starting my dissertation, I think.
SPEAKER_02And how do you feel about that now? Like, are you happy you did that?
SPEAKER_00I am, yeah. Like, I think at the time I still wasn't sure if I wanted to be a clinician um and do therapy one-on-one. But I figured if there was any time to try it, it was now. Yeah. If I didn't like the internship, I could just stop, stop, uh, pull back after the semester was over. Um, and so I'm glad, like, it took a lot of talking to admin. I mean, there was some admin at UCLA that actually didn't know that our track was clinical. And so it was a lot of like clarifying, but I was determined to just give myself that opportunity. Like the opportunity presented itself. Yeah. And I said, let me, let me do what I need to do. Let me, I will take care of the paperwork, I will run with it. And so sometimes you have to be proactive because there's a ton of adults around you who are willing and ready to support you, but they too sometimes don't actually know the process. Right. I don't look back and regret it. I just do look back and I'm like, I do wish there was someone, like one person who knew the process because that could have cut out like months of ideas. Question.
SPEAKER_02I had like, so I my program is so funny. My program is in the Department of Education under HDP, under special education. So it's like two umbrellas down because my PhD is specifically in special education, and we have the same kind of opportunity, I guess I would broadly say, because in California, the education degree and a PhD is the one only other PhD that you could get a clinical trial like licensing in. You do your hours outside of that, right? So I had actually also wondered the same thing. I want to say about maybe again about two years into my program, and I had asked around, and everybody was like, No, that's not possible. And I was like, Oh, okay, maybe they changed the rules. So I stopped asking. Because I was like, oh, maybe they changed, because I knew someone who had done it 20 years ago in the same program, and then I was like, maybe they changed the rules. So I stopped asking. Uh, it turns out they didn't change the rules, it's just they didn't know that it was still like a possibility. So I had to stop like searching for it. And now I feel like it's a little too late, maybe, to do it. But I've always thought about the balance between like doing clinical and academia because that was always my goal initially. So, how do you feel like you've balanced like two things? Because getting a PhD is so hard in and of itself, but also balancing like doing your hours as a clinician is like a whole nother beast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's a good question. I think for me, what's really beautiful about those two different things is one of them requires um a type of presence that that's more investigative, inquisitive, um, in an academic sense. And like I have a very particular question. I'm going to design a study that answers that question. I'm going to sit in front of a Google Doc that looks at the types of questions I'm going to ask my participants. Like the way my body feels in an academic hour of my day is very different than the way my body feels in the clinical hour. And I feel like those two very different embodied experiences actually is what creates the balance. Because if it was the same embodied experience over and over and over again, for me personally, it wouldn't work. I know a lot of people who love doing like the same exact thing every hour of the day. They're, you know, they're just built that way. And that's okay. Like that is, it is what it is. I'm not one of those people. Some people are built that way. Yeah. I'm not one of those people. I like variety. And I think this is something I tell students a lot too, is beyond the content that you're interested in, look at like your body and what you crave. Like, do you like movement through the day? If you do, you probably don't want to be sitting at a chair in front of a computer all day for your job. Don't want to survive, right? Exactly. There's something about the body that tells us like where the balance can be. Um, and so even though I'm sitting in a clinical chair, like I'm sitting in a chair when I'm on a Google Doc, but I'm also sitting on a chair when I'm with my patients. There's something about sitting in that chair that feels more open because I'm I'm I'm participating in what people have to say, but I'm really just like holding them, I'm receiving them, I'm I'm I'm just physically different.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so I'm I'm very like grateful that I figured that out as I was doing it. Like it was not something I knew coming in. Yeah. You look at your schedule and you're like, oh wow, that's the entire afternoon is blocked off, and then the entire morning is blocked off. On paper, you look busy, and you are, but the physical experience is so different for those two things. And I think it kind of helped me strike that balance almost automatically. Yeah. That's actually a beautiful response. Thank you. I yeah, and I again, like I didn't realize that until I actually started doing it, but I did realize I'm not a full-time clinician. Like I tried that when I was doing my dissertation. Um, I think there was a quarter that I just took it easy on my dissertation. Like I didn't do much data collection, didn't do much. So basically, I was working full-time. I'm not a full-time therapist, and that's okay too. That's okay. It's really hard work.
SPEAKER_02It's so difficult. I think my um my goal was to be a therapist. And my first semester teaching psychology, I had this student who we were doing like an activity about identity, and um, during the class, she was like really not talkative the entire semester. And she raised her hand and she was like, Well, I still don't know who I am. And she like started crying in class and was like, you know, I have struggled with this so long, da-da-da. And then she she came to me, she spoke to me later, and she was like, you know, I've had thoughts of like suicide before, blah, blah, blah. And in that moment where she's having this conversation with me, I was like, Oh, I can't, this is so hard for me to like hear. Like, I was so crushed hearing that that I can't imagine what it feels like as a therapist to have client after client like giving you this devastating news, and your responsibility is to hold them through that. You know what I mean? It's a very difficult job. And it's okay if like you can't do that full time, right? It's very, very hard to put up that wall between you and your client and be like, oh, this is my home life. I'm not gonna take this home with me. You think about it all the time, right? Like it's there. That's true. Yeah. Um, I want to talk just a couple more questions about your PhD before we delve into the clinical stuff, because I really do want to delve into that a little bit. But do you mind talking to us a little bit about what your um PhD dissertation topic was?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So within the human development and psychology program, I think they encouraged us to, I mean, it was so broad that they kind of encouraged us to think about any part of human identity and psyche that was interesting to us, which is again so so broad. So broad. And I had been working with children of immigrants for a long time. I'm a child of immigrants themselves. Um and I was really, really, really craving critical work around the experience of being um in diaspora or in exile. Um and those two words, you know, we can talk about in just a minute. But I was, you know, just naturally drawn to the Arab American and Muslim experience. I grew up Arab American and Muslim. And when I pitched the idea and proposed the dissertation, um, I think it was 2022. So there was stuff obviously happening in the world. But I started collecting data, I think September 2023. So it was like a month before the genocide in Gaza began. Wow. And so yeah. So as I was talking to participants, and these were all interviews with young, brilliant, brilliant people across the US, uh, very quickly our interviews took on the world. Like it definitely carried the weight of the world with them. And so in real time, you know, I think I came in with research questions about what is it like being in relationship to other people in diaspora? What is it like learning about yourself in like a white supremacist culture, et cetera, et cetera. And at some point, I just like started changing the research questions because I wanted to learn more about like what is it like witnessing genocide on your screen when you have family there too? How are you? How are you? How are you? Like we would open the Zoom screen and ask each other, how are you? So it was a very rich project. And I'm very grateful that these participants gave me their time because not only did we talk about what is it like being in diaspora and what were your parents like and how did they raise you, but we really talked about like in real time, how do you make meaning of ongoing violence that's directly impacting your family. Right. Is this a published study yet? Um, I think the dissertation is published. We want it. We want to read it. I'm very happy to share the link.
SPEAKER_02Yes, please do, and we'll share the link too with everyone so they can read it too. Because that's I didn't realize you were collecting data like as the genocide at the end of the year.
SPEAKER_00It was crazy. It was actually really, really crazy. And I remember going to my advisor who's super wonderful and very supportive, and even she was like, I'm really not sure what to tell you. But this is part of actually the methodology is to be flexible and reactive to your participants.
SPEAKER_02What you're not gonna be like, well, I'm not collecting data because the genocide is happening, and that wasn't my research question.
SPEAKER_00No, it's part of our lived experiences, so part of the lived experiences. And and I think the genocide encapsulated so much of the violence that was gonna be brought up anyway. Yes. Like white supremacy was gonna be brought up anyway. So it, you know, unfortunately created a portal for us to enter.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I was literally gonna say unfortunately, it gave you this like really raw access to something horrible, but also something that like needed to be documented. That's right. And needed to be heard. Like you are highlighting a set of voices that I think is often not heard in literature. Like we know this common fact, well, maybe not common to everyone, but like 95% of research exists within white American populations, and we don't talk about immigrants as much as we want to. We don't talk about Arab American Muslim immigrants, right? Like as much as we should.
SPEAKER_00And so and even if we do, what I've noticed is that we skip over the source of violence. Like there actually is quite, I mean, I think the last decade there's been more and more research on immigrants in general, which is nice and welcomed. But I I when I read these studies, and all my credit to like the authors themselves, um, I do feel like there probably was a part in the process of putting together the study or the formulation of the study in which a conversation about the source of the violence was either edited out or maybe kind of um taken away or glossed over. And I we don't have enough conversations about the source of violence. Right. And like the source of violence, I think, is white supremacy in general. And then the capitalist culture that comes out of white supremacy.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I and we're then it's very possible that it's just edited out. It's just probably edited out.
SPEAKER_00Or people are just conditioned, conditioned in many, many programs and workspaces to be like, oh yeah, yeah, we don't we don't really have to talk about that. Okay. Then what are we talking about? Right. Then we're descriptive. Then we're actually just describing people's experiences, which again is like welcomed and important. But I think we we've gotten to a point where we're beyond description. Right. Like we need to start connecting it to stories.
SPEAKER_02Like we need to start talking about the real issue. Otherwise, what's the purpose? What's the purpose? What's the purpose? Like it's great that we have these voices, but let's have all of the voice, like, not part of it. The whole story, the whole story. The whole narrative. The whole narrative. Let's not just like cut it to the parts that feel appeasing to everybody, right? It's like how in certain parts of the country we just don't talk about slavery because like it might hurt someone's feelings.
SPEAKER_00It might hurt someone's feelings, right?
SPEAKER_02And that's not what we're trying to do. We're trying to like just understand the entire experience, not just part of the experience, right? Not the not the pretty parts, just all of the experience. That's really nice. I'm really, really glad that you did that. And again, congratulations. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00In Arabic, we say at balik, which is um, you are going to do this soon. One more time. At balik. Atbalik. Yeah. I love that. So, like at balik, because I know you're gonna be wrapping up very, very soon. Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_02I can't wait. Yeah, yeah. I can't wait. I hope, I hope really soon. Yeah, and I hope to have that same that same feeling. And hopefully, no more school for me. I have decided that I I will not be able to do that.
SPEAKER_00That's a great decision, right? Kids, if you're listening, if you're listening at some point, my students in my class.
SPEAKER_02That's enough school. At some point, I mean, I actually I mean, I I have actually convinced people to not go to PhD programs. So, like, I'm a big proponent of that. Like, you don't have to go to PhD.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there is like for people who are interested in therapists, you don't need a PhD to be a therapist. I mean, I wish someone told me that. Yeah, I think someone had maybe mentioned it, but I wasn't hear it. Like you can't hear it, and I wasn't that set on clinical work anyway. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, there are routes to things that are not PhDs. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02And like, even if you think about this program, this program is under the Department of Education, like at UCLA, right? It's not somewhere you would typically look for a clinical route or for like a psychology type of degree. And so it's important to look outside of the box, but also you don't need a PhD. I ask my students all the time because they'll be like, like, what do you want to do after? Oh, I want to get a PhD, and I'll just go, why?
SPEAKER_00What do they say when you ask them that? They blink out. Yeah, I don't think people know enough about how specific PhD programs are.
SPEAKER_02And and and unfortunately, you know, they have role models that are their teachers, and most of their teachers have PhDs, and so they think, okay, to be that, to be like that, or to be successful or what they think is successful, right? I have to go get a PhD. And so they haven't developed their own reasoning for why they want to do it. They just have this idea of like, this is the pipeline. It's the it's the right way to go. Again, this like by we were talking about this earlier, this like binary, they get stuck of like this is the right way to go. So I have to go get a PhD. And so when I've I've had multiple students, like, I think my students are brilliant, but they they miss the part where they have to think about why they actually want to do the thing. So I'll just ask them, like, why do you want to do it? And then they're like, Because. And I'm like, because why? And then they're like, because it's like you don't need to do a PhD for research and you don't need to do it for a clinical. So once the reason like once you can tell me your why, then I will full and wholeheartedly support you going in there. Sure.
SPEAKER_00Also, PhDs will be there, you know. Like some people might need a couple of years. I took a couple of years. Yeah, actually. I did my master's in at Harvard, so that was like a one-year program. Nice. And then I took a two-year break afterwards because I I like the idea of academia, but I also really missed teaching. Right. So I went back to teaching.
SPEAKER_02Back to teaching.
SPEAKER_00And it revealed to me that I really wanted to go back to academia. You know, like I think life is a journey, and unfortunately, a lot of our culture is so capitalist, like just to bring it back to capitalism a little bit. I think so much of this culture is like input, output, input, output, and and yeah, like uh focusing on efficiency more than anything else. When you look at life in general, I think it's very much a journal journey. We were talking earlier about how people have had five, six, seven beautiful careers and they've learned something over the course of time and have grown with every step. And I can confidently say, like, I didn't take a linear path, and my parents. Joke about it all the time because they're like, Why didn't you? And I'm like, I just didn't. Like, I followed what felt right to me. Right. You followed your heart, which is as cliche as it is, that's true.
SPEAKER_02That's the correct way to do it.
SPEAKER_00And there is time and money that's invested. And yeah, like I look back, I'm like, was that the most efficient use of my money or time or resources? No. And I'm very blessed to say that like I had access to loans and financial aid to like make that work. Um, and so I understand like that why people are getting antsy about their next step because they want their money and time to be efficient.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I mean, I I understand that totally and wholeheartedly, but I also think that there's a part of it that we're missing, and it's the you part. Yes. Like you can't just think about the end goal because once you're done with your PhD program, you have the rest of your life. That's right. So like you're rushing to this end, but you're neither passionate nor do you desire what the rest of your life is gonna be. So if you don't have that picture, that image, that desire to continue to live, to be alive, to like, you know, to just enjoy, to go sit in the sun and be like, Oh my god, I love this day.
SPEAKER_01What a beautiful day!
SPEAKER_02Like, then what's the purpose, right? Like rushing through all of these things, it does nothing for you but give you anxiety and stress and panic and worry. Like I had more or less a linear path. And honestly, looking back at it, I wish I took more time off. I wish I like did a bunch of other things before I went into the PhD program because I I think I could have learned a little bit more. Like I was so burnt out by my first year. You know, my first year I was burnt out. This year you were burnt out. My first year I was burnt out. My first year, I took one year off. I did my uh my bachelor's, my master's, I took one year off because we were in COVID. And then I went to PhD program right after. So I had that one year, but the first year I started my PhD program, I was like burnt out. I was like just so unwell. I was like, I can't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna do this. Like it was a struggle for me to do it. Yeah, because I I mean my first year I was taking like four or five classes per semester. I was between UCLA and Cal State LA. I was teaching to the classes at both campuses, like it was a lot for a first semester, and I I feel like I pushed myself into something that I shouldn't have done. You know what I mean? So the idea of like you can stop. Yeah, go teach. You like teaching, go teach for a couple years, come back, do this, do that. Like, you need to just interest. There's no right way to do life.
SPEAKER_00There's no way to do life as long as you're not like con inflicting harm on other people, of course. Thank you, or on yourself. Like, but like there's no right way to do it. And unfortunately, I think like that's what I'm trying to revive with my patients too, because I think people come to therapy for really, really good intentions. They like have a very specific problem in their life and they want to resolve it. And then, but I I think it's my job to help them zoom out a bit and be like, what if this was just an experience? Right, and and yeah, it was a very painful experience, like I'm not dismissing anything, but like also, what if it was an experience that informs your next experience, your next step, your next decision, your next whatever? And and you can look at it and say, God, that was a total loss, or that was a waste of my time, or you could just be like, that was an experience. I did that. I did that, and like had I not had that experience, I would have never learned these three, four things about myself. Right. So it's I mean, we've lost that as a culture. I don't know if it was ever there to be honest, but I think I I take it upon myself to like revive that narrative about your life as just a series of experiences. Do you think people had that and then they lose it, or do you think as a culture we just don't teach that? I think people had it as kids.
SPEAKER_02As kids.
SPEAKER_00I think babies are born into this world, ready to just like have experiences. Um, like we're gonna go see my niece after this conversation with you, and she's she's almost two years old. They look at her, she's so cute. She's so cute, and also she's just like like she's just doing whatever she wants to do. She's like, I'm gonna go play with that box, I'm gonna go pet this dog. I'm sleepy, I'm hungry. You know, like they're very embodied as young people, and I think I think we still have that within us. Um, it's just a matter of like returning to that commitment of like like what you were saying. I I have some agency in the world, and if I want to, if I'm curious about this experience, let me just go for it. Just go for it. Even if it doesn't make rational sense, yeah.
SPEAKER_02It doesn't have part of the program again as long as as long as you're not causing harm on anyone, please go do the thing, like enjoy, enjoy your life. So you are a divested psychologist. Yes, yes, yeah. Is that part of divested psychology? Is that different? Do you mind explaining division?
SPEAKER_00I kind of made up the term divested psychology. Well, if you didn't say that, I would never know. So I do need to share this at some point because we we haven't had the opportunity to talk about it. I um still have a license in the state of California. Okay. I made a decision to stop pursuing my full licensure. So I have many, many hours left in my licensure. Part of the decision, um, and I may pick up the license again. I'm not I'm not quite sure where I'm at, but part of the decision was looking at the state of psychology in general in the United States and thinking about who regulates us and who licenses us. Sorry, yeah. And yeah, I mean, you have every right to laugh. And I was thinking, I was like, you know, these I think consumers should be protected by boards, you know, like there's a reason, you know, boards exist. But I look at our board, um, and I don't know anyone there personally, but I'm thinking like they've said nothing about genocide. They've never said anything about black people being murdered in our country. They haven't said anything about ICE. So, what is this board that's regulating us, that's telling us how to think about the human psyche when they haven't said anything about violence in the last several years? Or if they have, to be honest, I think it's been more performative. Um, and so I decided to, I mean, I think a lot about like where I invest my time and energy and resources and like what I center in my life. And I decided to de-center this licensing board. And so I took a really big risk with my career and decided to offer what I call therapeutic services. Legally, I can't call it therapy. Got it. But it looks like therapy, it feels like therapy. A lot of my clients followed me to my new practice. But I am not working like under a specific license right now, but offering services. And healers for centuries have done this, right? Boards are relatively new in human history. Yes. So I've kept my license as kind of like, you know, something I could probably pick up on. It's very helpful to have a license if you want to, you know, testify in court, if you want to write notes that are legible to universities and employers. So I tell my patients, I'm like, listen, I can't write a note for your class and I can't testify in court for you. But if you're cool with those things, then what we're doing is a healing art. I just like legally can't call it therapy. So I should have probably told you that before the interview. Before I said it.
SPEAKER_02We scratch that. But I think No, I think that's I think that's great. Yeah. I think that's great because you're right. Like I we were talking about this earlier, but I teach a class called ethnic minority mental health. And the entire class is centered around, is basically centered around trying to drive the point home that like the therapy training that therapists get are not centered for ethnic minorities. It's not, it's not about ethnic minorities, it's about white people and what is normal for like white populations and how to apply that to ethnic minorities. It doesn't work the same way. Right. It you can't do the same things, you know. Like we don't have a lot of research on ethnic minorities. And besides that, we don't, besides them not always being open to therapy, we don't know how that that's received, really. Right. The little that we do know is not what we're taught in those classes, in the majority of the training classes. So it's this, it's a huge, it was actually part of the reason why I was like, I'm kind of glad I never did therapy because I would have hated learning about this stuff, right? Like, yeah, I would hate these methods that they're teaching people, like how to talk to people and whatever.
SPEAKER_00So I'm so grateful for my training. Like, I learned a lot, a lot, a lot for my training because there are there are ways of approaching, you know, the hour that you're in therapy. Um, but you know, I I had an idea coming in that was gonna be like this, and then it was proven correct that like as much as I'm grateful for the traditional therapy and therapy techniques, a lot of it doesn't center again violence. So it it can only help people, you know, validate their emotions, which like has a time and place. For sure, you know, often it's like, how do I get this person back in the workforce? How do I get them back into this linear path of life? Right. Um, how do I get them back in class? Again, there's a time and place for that in the short term, but a lot of a lot of people are coming to therapy because they're thirsty for something that's just hasn't clicked yet. They're like, I know I could probably pick myself up and get back to class. I know my anxiety could be resolved, but like, what is the source of my anxiety? Right. And my answer typically is like you're dealing with some sort of systemic violence against the self and against you being your fullest self. You want to blossom, and a lot of society is telling you, like, uh-uh, no, we can't do it that way, you can't do it this way, or you're not good enough, blah, blah, blah. So I yeah, I divested from these traditional trainings that work for some part of the population and decided to invest in other things. So, yeah, it's a lot of my time and money and energy going to conferences that are for us, right? Having conversations with people that are for us. Um, and it's it's a lot of me on my own right now, but I know there's a lot of people like me who are feeling more and more skeptical about what licenses have to offer and and just doing their own.
SPEAKER_02Wow, I love that. I've never I've never thought to look at the licensing board. And now that you say that, I'm like, who is the licensing board?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't know much about them either. I think they're there to protect consumers, which is like not a bad idea, obviously.
SPEAKER_02But when you think about it, sure, if someone has a complaint against like a therapist, you know, like it's great that there's a board to kind of deal with that, but at the same time I don't look at those, I don't look at this body as an institution that is really paving the path for confronting violence in our world.
SPEAKER_00Right. And it's really ironic because you would think like, okay, you're thinking about the psyche, you're thinking about the human spirit. You would think that like maybe this board would be a board that really takes seriously what is getting in the way of human development in general, but I don't think they've tasked themselves that much with that. No. That it is what it is.
SPEAKER_02So, what's the name of your practice? Dynamic Dreaming. Yay! I just had to say that because I'm gonna put the link up there for everyone too. But if anyone wants to reach out to you, they have the ability to do that. It's dynamic dreaming. Um, what are some things that you think that you would tell us that you do that are a little bit different than traditional um psychology, besides making sure to center violence?
SPEAKER_00This is so silly. That's the first thing that came off my mind. But I offer tea and coffee. Oh my god. I love you. People in the past told me they're like, don't do that because then you like interfere with like the patient therapist relationship. And I'm like, what? That's insane to me. Why would I never offer tea or coffee? So that's the first tea coffee. It's so culturally appropriate. That's the thing. I'm like, if I walk into your home, my home, like there's gonna be a lot of coffee. There's gonna be tea and coffee there. Yes. There's an offering. There has to be. It was the first thing I did when I opened the office was I bought an espresso machine and a little tea.
SPEAKER_02That's amazing.
SPEAKER_00I bet your clients love it. They love it. They love it. We go through a lot of I mean, it's it's nourishing, right? I think at the end of the day, like that was to answer your first question. I think the first thing I write to prioritize is nourishment because if someone feels safe in a space over and over again, week after week, then you'll be able to share these like more vulnerable thoughts. Right. Um, the other thing I like to center is yes, let's talk about like specific issues, emotions, interpersonal relationships, but let's also talk about the world where you're at. And you don't have to have perfect vocabulary, but like tell me about your week, your relationship to the news this week. Right. What what caught your attention? And if the answer is like nothing, that's okay too. Um, but I think we're trained to ignore, compartmentalize, ignore. Uh, and I I invite people to not feel like they have to compartmentalize parts of their lives. Yeah. At all. I think that's really important. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Actually, I think not I think one of the things that I love about you and appreciate about you, and really like I think you're one of the few people that really do this is you have a set of uh beliefs or ethics or morals that you follow, and you're like set to follow those things. Like, I don't agree with this. So anything that supports this, I will not be doing. And it seems it's always seems so graceful and easy for you. Like you when you I'm sure it's not like because it's not easy to cut yourself off for those things. I don't mean to like devalue it. I'm just saying, like, the way you present it is like this was a decision I made. Like it's a thing that I had to do because I don't agree with this.
SPEAKER_00Like, listen, I mean, I think this is oh gosh, you've probably seen this in your classroom too. Like, I think this is why I feel very, very, very, very passionate about people trusting themselves at the end of the day. So if you don't have trust in yourself, you can't make these decisions, whether it's your career or your relationship or stuff with your family or what do you want to do this summer, blah, blah, blah. You know, like if you don't have a foundation of trust in yourself, then the stressful decisions become infinitely more stressful. Yeah. I mean, this decision I made, I went back and forth a lot about it, spent a few months talking to people. I talked to a lot of professionals who kept their licenses, a lot of professionals that didn't keep their licenses. But at the end of the day, it was like my decision to make, and I had to like trust myself. But I am so grateful for a lot of mentors in my life, including my parents, who modeled that. Like they modeled how they made their own decisions, they trusted themselves. It wasn't easy. But I like really, really mourn that we've also kind of lost that in education. Oh, we for sure lost that. I feel like I'm really like down on education today.
SPEAKER_02No, I mean, I am too. It's okay. We can, we're yeah, we're a little mutual on that. I am too, and I have been for a while, but that's I mean, again, we were talking about this earlier. Is like, I think a lot of this um students going into this binary of like this is right or this is wrong, is a lack of trust for themselves, right? Yes. Because if you make a decision, I think the example I was giving earlier was like, I ask my students why a lot. Like they're they'll do something, they'll present something to me, they'll bring me a topic, they'll bring me their paper, and I'll be like, Why'd you do that? Why'd you write that? Why'd you choose that? Why is that measure? Why is that da-da-da? Why'd you do that? And their instant response to that is, oh, I'll delete it. Oh, I'll change it. Oh, I'll take it out. Oh, don't worry. Oh, I da-da-da. And I'm always quick to say, like, I'm not asking you why, so you can delete it. My question is legitimately, I want to know why you did this.
SPEAKER_00I'm curious. I'm curious why you're whatever you say is not going to end the world or end you or end me.
SPEAKER_02It's just, I want to understand your thought process. How do you get from point A to point B? I'm not telling you point B is wrong. I'm just saying, I'm just asking you, how'd you get from point A to point B? And that to me is a lack of trust in the self, right? Like you choose something, or it's a lack of diligence. I don't know, it's one or the other. You choose a thing, but you don't know why you chose the thing. So when someone questions you on it, you're immediate to withdraw that. Whereas whenever I've talked to you about something, it's like, oh, I'll ask you why you did this thing, and you're like, here's my reasoning because I've thought about this and I trust the fact that I made the correct decision for me, and you're set on what those choices are. Like, what are the grounding principles behind the decision that you made, which I think is so important.
SPEAKER_00It's so important and it's actually literally under attack right now. Like I think with the right is a fascism everywhere. I think one of the there is a psychological front to fascism and colonialism and imperialism everywhere. Like it's I'm not making this up. There's like CIA operative handbooks that talk about like the psychological component of what whatever they're doing around the world. Um, and so much of what is under attack is like people's trust within themselves because they know that if you are very shaky in your own foundation and you're not self-assured and you're not able to like check in with community either. Right. Like you don't have a strong social fabric to like check in about your thinking or your gut feelings, it will be weaponized against you. You will feel like you're looking left and right, like, who do I trust? Do I trust? Let me trust this leader. Right. Who else am I gonna trust? They're a leader for a reason. Right. And that's why I mean, um, you were asking me about the therapy space in general. The other thing I'll say about this space is it's also a very political space. I mean, not only do we talk about headlines, but we talk about this. Like, how are my shaky foundations potentially weaponized right now? Yeah. Not just in the United States, but like all across the globe. Like there are things being weaponized against masses of people. So masses of people are just okay with violence. Like they need the consent of millions of people to continue doing whatever they're doing. So I like to tell people that whatever you're working on on a personal level is gonna blossom on a political level. Like you are doing something for the collective too when you work on yourself. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And you're impacting other people, right? Right? Like your self-trust is infectious. Yes, it's infectious. Just like your joy is infectious, just like your like your happiness and your contentness is infectious.
SPEAKER_00That's why I've always been drawn to you, because you're just such a joyful person.
SPEAKER_02I I try so hard, and that's why I try to be like like happy when I'm in spaces, because it's infectious. It's like so much of it is there's so much bad in the world. I used to start, I I think it was when the it was either when the the genocide in Gaza happened or the semester before that was when I would walk into class and I would be like, Okay, you guys need to tell me something good that happened this weekend. And just like kind of share that because it doesn't matter what, oh, I watched a movie, oh, I went to the beach, oh, I did, it doesn't matter what it is. It's like there's so much bad, and we highlight that, which is another way that it's weaponized against us, right? Like focus on the negative, the world is ending. It's so terrible that if I could just take 10 minutes to just be happy, yes, I'm gonna do that.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and people's joy is resistance. I think people like continuing to choose life, not to you know, ignore stuff that's happening in the world, but to like continue to wake up and be like, I'm gonna do something delightful. Yeah, I'm gonna enjoy the pleasures of life.
SPEAKER_02Yes, because again, you're gonna nourish myself. That's infectious. Yeah, you're you're doing it for you, but you're also doing it for the people around you that get to that get to have a little bit of that, you know, and enjoy that with you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Um, on this kind of topic, I think you I'm assuming you have a lot of Palestinian and Lebanese clients. How do you feel like they come into that space and like interact with you, especially right now with everything that's happening in in Palestine and continues to happen continues to happen in Palestine, but also in Lebanon? Like, how is that like for you?
SPEAKER_00It's a good question because uh, I mean, I guess the first thing we'll say is we're obviously not a monolith, so people are coming in with different also not expecting you to be like the spokesperson of it, just like your experience and working on the city. Yeah, some themes in general that have been sticking out is I think it's I mean, there's uh obviously this fresh wave of violence that began against Iran end of February and then picked up in Lebanon early March. Uh we're recording this in what mid-April? April. April. It's now April 11th. Yes. It's April 11th today, yes. So, you know, I would say like the past month and a half, there's just a lot of shock taking in constant headlines, a lot of people coming in, I think wanting a space to report what they're seeing and feeling shocked. Yeah. And I think that's very normal, especially the first few weeks of something, you're just like, you know, I was glued to my phone. Yeah. I don't sleep with my phone the bedroom I usually keep in the living room. But because I'm so good. I had to pick that up in grad school. Oh my god. I'm gonna go crazy if I just keep looking at a screen all day long. Yeah. But there are times where I have grace for myself, and so at some point I, you know, put the phone back in the bedroom because I was checking on family. Yeah. At like midnight at 6 a.m. You know, I just wanted to I wanted that comfort. So I felt like some themes that came up were along those similar lines, like there was a gravitation towards just a space where people could like catch up on headlines with me. Like we were literally just reporting out loud to each other what was happening. We didn't even get to the meaning making part until later. Like, I think that's how shocking and big everything was. Yeah. Um, but I think it's very important, uh, and I give my patients credit for this because it's really them doing this. But in addition to reporting all the violence, a lot of people are reporting here are some of the wins that we're seeing, here are some of the acts of resistance that we're seeing, here are some good news that we're seeing, here's how the community came and protested yesterday in Palestine or Lebanon. And I think it's very important to hold both things because it's really easy, really, really easy, especially with the amount of violence that our region is subjected to, for it to just be a list of terrible things that are happening, and there's absolutely no credit given to the acts of resistance that are happening. Right. Um, and that's part of it like we were. Talking about narratives earlier, that's part of the narrative too. That's part of the narrative. There's no reason to leave that out of the narrative.
SPEAKER_02No, we have to talk about the pot that we have to talk about the acts of resistance. We have to talk about how the community comes together. I think for me, one of the one of the biggest things um during the Armenia 2020 genocide war that happened was a lot of the community coming together. And that was like the act of resistance, right? For everybody, it was like, yes, this is horrendous. Like it's tort terrible and like the act of violence and all the things. But on the flip side, we have like this immense amount of support. People all over the world are like talking. And you know, is that changing anything? We hope. We don't know. We hope. But to know that we are at least at the forefront, to know that these spaces are not alone, to know that Palestine's not alone, like the people who are in Lebanon and in Iran, like they're not suffering this in complete silence. Like we are aware, we know we're trying to do what we can. That's right. You know, the most that we can, yeah, is like the act of resistance and to know that like we have you guys in the best way that we can have you.
SPEAKER_00It's like an act of like, I see you, you see me. Like I think like that recognition is super, super important. There was one point in the genocide, this was when we had that encampment at UCLA. Yeah. Um, and it was so, so endearing that there are a bunch of kids in Gaza who like created posters that said, like, thank you, Columbia University, thank you, UCLA, wow, thank you, um, like Stanford, whatever universities. And we looked at that and we were like, I don't feel like we deserve a bunch of kids like taking time out of their day during genocide to do that. But I think it kind of solidified the point that you were making, which is there is something important about like people seeing each other in solidarity because it nourishes us to just keep going. To keep going. We just have to keep going. It's like there's no other option except to just keep going and and and to if you're if you're having a rough week with nourish yourself.
SPEAKER_02Nourish yourself and know that there's people around you that are gonna support you and and do that. Wow, that's amazing. It was very, very touching. That um UCLA encampment was that deserves a whole other episode. I would like love to talk about that because I think that the the response, UCLA's response to the encampment, and just like the violence that happened during the peaceful encampment was wild. Like I saw some videos and I just thought, like, this is I to know that a big institution like UCLA was reacting in such a passive way, and that there's videos happening where people are aggravating the the um peaceful protesters, right? And then at the end of it, they're like, no, the people who were protesting for Palestine, like they are suspended or expelled, was like insane.
SPEAKER_00Were you were you one of those people? I was arrested, um, not suspended, not expelled, but they did withhold my diploma for like six months, which was crazy. Which is insane. Like I was like, give me my diploma. What what what but it but it demonstrates, I think, how threatened they felt by people confronting the fact that this institution was complicit in violence. Like the whole, I mean, the whole point of the encampment was demanding UCLA to take their funds out of stocks that were invested in in the military-industrial complex that were killing people in lifetime. And I I mean it's it was so clear that us coming together and demanding that was such a threat.
SPEAKER_02I just think, first of all, sorry that you had to experience that, but the fact that an institution like UCLA responds in that way, and I think it, you know, not specifically UCLA, I think a lot of institutions were responding in the same way, just again coming, bringing it back to capitalism, because if your money's in the right place, then you get what you want. It doesn't matter what the rest of the people are asking you in a peaceful protest, right? Like their money is invested in a specific place, and a bunch of their stockholders are saying, no, you cannot take this money out because we want it there. That's right. So it is what it is, and it's um and you got your diploma. So I do get the diploma eventually. That's good, but it just yeah, that uh definitely for a different episode. I would love to go to go more into that, but just to kind of bring it back, what's some um advice that you would give to people who are who have family, who are part of the diaspora? You've worked with a lot a lot with the diaspora, so just something maybe encouraging or something that you have to say to the diaspora board?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, when you first asked me about this a few days ago, I like sat and and really considered it because there's a lot I could say, but I think what I really, really want to emphasize is that we're not just me, you, every person that is a product of this colonial violence. What we're actually doing is working on the project of uh human liberation in general. Like I really, really, really, really believe that all humans need to be free. And like none of us are free until you're free, until he's free, until everyone's free. The land needs to be free. That's a huge project. It's a huge, huge, huge project. It will take, I think, lifetimes for us to reach that. And so I tell a lot of people like consider this as your project, too. Um, I mean, if you're complaining about it, you're by default kind of like in the project because you're affected by the project. And it's a long road. And there's a lot of wisdom that has been built along the way. You are not the first person on the planet who's like, what does it take for us to get free? Like, there's so there is so much wisdom out there, and a lot of that wisdom comes up not just in books and film and literature, but I think like in connection with people, in connection with elders. I tell people, like, talk to older people who have gone through some stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Because they've got some wisdom. Some of them don't have the wisdom that I would pass to my kids necessarily. Some of them know, but but I think there's a lot of wisdom out there, and it definitely helps to feel like you're not going crazy because you're not we're not reinventing the wheel, but we are creating something together. We still don't know how all of us get free. Like we we don't know the exact path. Um, but I tell people who are struggling, like, uh because you've selected to be part of this project of human liberation, find other people who are also wanting to work on this too. It helps a lot to be around like-minded people. And I think I've in the last two and a half years in particular, since the genocide, I've deepened a lot of relationships with people because I could tell that they were reaching out for me and I was reaching out for them. Like we we needed each other, we still need each other to get through the monstrosity of what's happening. Yeah, and so I say connection, wisdom, and and continue investing in spaces that are invested in liberation. Yeah, not every space is invested in liberation, there's some spaces that are invested in civility. Yeah, like a lot of like, let me hear what you have to say, like, but we're not gonna actually talk about the feelings are validated here. Right. And that's fine, but it's fine, but it's not like it's kind of like having sugar on your diet and you never have protein, you're kind of just like hungry all the time.
SPEAKER_02Yes, yeah. It's not enough sometimes, you know. Like, yes, your feelings are valid, but if you have enough trust in yourself, you know that your feelings are valid. You don't need the external validation. What you do need is to find spaces that can move forward with you. Yes, not just sit there and say your feelings are valid.
SPEAKER_00And you don't have to be an activist, you just have to be someone who wants to engage in stuff. Yeah, like you want to actually have thoughtful conversations and and challenge your assumptions and read history and be like, oh, my parents taught me this, but I actually wonder about that, you know, to actually deepen your relationship to the world.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I think one point that I would love to like drive home before we wrap this up is that your your joy is infectious. You know, like yes, your joy is infectious, but also your I like the way you talk about humans and liberation, and the way you talk about just being there for each other is also infectious. And for you and for your your clients, and just for anybody listening, like everything you do that's positive is infectious to the next person, and that's part of the way that we move forward, right? That's part of the way that we get liberated, that's part of the way that we resist and exist in resistance and and move forward. So while you have to deal with the monstrosity, you also have to to take a little bit of account of like how far we've come and and you know enjoy the the little things of life is very important. Yes. I have one more question for you that I ask um everybody on the podcast because this is about balance, and for most of this we were talking a lot about balance, but you have a lot going on. So what are some things you do to how do you balance your your own life with all the the projects, all your everything you have going on?
SPEAKER_00Um two things movement. Okay. Love I didn't always love moving. Like I was never like a sports child. Okay. Yeah, like I wasn't really, I mean, I did sports, but I didn't like particularly enjoy them. But the older I get, the more I'm like, no, movement actually breaks up my day. It breaks up like whatever connective tissue just feels weird in my body. Um, and so I tell people, like, even if you've never moved in your life, like try just try moving. It will, it will just like allow a little bit more balance into your life. Like your body will respond to movement if you're able to. If you're not able to, like, you know, I can understand that, but I think for most people who can move, try to build a movement to the day. Oh, beautiful. Yoga stretching, just moving your neck around in the morning, anything. Um, you literally mean anything, like simple moment. Yeah, I I walk. We're very sedentary, like we're really sedentary, and I think it shows like we're kind of just like the like we're really lethargic. Yeah, I know. Um the movement's been so life-saving for me. And yeah. And it changes per season. Like I had a yoga season, I had like a Pilates season. I also love that about you.
SPEAKER_02You're kind of like, I'm gonna try this, and then I'm gonna try this, and then I'm gonna do that. Like, there's no, I think a lot of people get stuck with. I know I said I was like, that was gonna be last thing, but I I do like to talk a lot. There's a lot of people that get stuck with like, I have to do a movement, but I have to pick the right one, and I have to like completely invest. No, no, you don't don't invest. Actually, don't invest if you will really like it. Right, but like pick one, just do something, do something, try it. Like, you want to try running? You don't need to go buy 40 million like dollars worth of gear and then do a run and realize you hate it. Yeah, try a run. You want to try yoga? Try yoga. Like, you want to dance, try dance. Like you can try it.
SPEAKER_00Just give it a set of experiences. Like it just goes back to that. It's just a set of experiences. Absolutely. You take you take the no, you're good, you're good. That's exactly where I'm at. So movement first thing, and then more recently in the last couple of years, I've like picked up this idea of containers. So, like, if I'm it's so think about like what a container is. It's something that's dimensional and it's contained. Like I nothing like leaves this container. Um, so for me, if I'm with a friend, I am present with this friend. Like, I'm not checking my phone, I'm not sending emails, blah, blah, blah. Like, I am as present as I possibly can be with this friend. If I am uh going to write a paper, I like and it's it's a matter of blocking off time. It's like this is my container for writing the paper. And when the container is done, I'm also done. Like, I made a promise to myself to write for an hour, and I'm not actually gonna exceed that. Like, if I want to, that's cool. But it's about it's again building trust with yourself. Of I made myself a promise, I'm gonna go work out for half an hour and come back. I fulfilled a promise to myself, and I think the more people do that, the more they that balance starts happening because you're able to say, when I want to do a thing, I do the thing. And you build trust with yourself. You build trust that way. And then you decide, how am I gonna use my day? Okay, I'm gonna wake up for a little earlier and spend an hour doing this, and that's my container for that. Like, I have a container for responding to texts, believe it or not. Because I used to be such a bad texter and I'm still like working on it. But it was because I had no container for texting. It was just like in between things, which is fine, but it wasn't working for me. Yeah. So I like actually have a container that's like mid-morning where I sit on my phone and I like respond to texts. That's and then there's another container in the evening where I sit my phone and I respond to text. That's amazing. It's like half, I think it's like halfway.
SPEAKER_02That's actually so such good advice, both of them. Movement and and essentially time management, but I like the container analogy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because the word time management just like freaks people out at night. It freaks people out. I get it.
SPEAKER_02I like this container contain. Go go to the container store. Go to the container store. Grab some grab some containers and like label them and just go and like, you know.
SPEAKER_00I love that. You're just saying to yourself, I'm gonna do a thing, and then you do it, and then when it's done, it's it's done. I don't spend typically I don't really go over the container time because I don't want to.
SPEAKER_02Did that take you a long time to like develop? I think so. And I don't know if I picked it up on my own, if someone told me, but um I think that's one other thing that people struggle with is they hear a piece of advice, like the like the container analogy, right? And then they try it once and it doesn't work for some reason, and then they're like they just completely give it up. But I think what they forget is like you've developed this for a while, like you figured out what works best for you. Like maybe one hour writing blocks work best for you. So you're not gonna give yourself three hours because that's too much. That's you know, yeah, you've developed that over time, so just be patient with yourselves in developing your own containers. That's right. Right, yeah. I love that. Thank you so much for joining me. I had so much fun. I had such a great time with you. I'm so, so happy you came today. And again, congratulations. And thank you. I hope we can do this again. Thank you. I love that. Oh my god. All right, I need to learn, I need to learn everything at Farsi. I would love to. Thank you guys for joining us on this episode of Thoughts Have Talks. If you liked this episode, please don't forget to like and subscribe. See you next time.