The Freight Pod
The Freight Pod is a deep dive into the journeys of the transportation and logistics industry’s brightest minds and innovators. The show is hosted by Andrew Silver, former founder and CEO of MoLo Solutions, one of the fastest-growing freight brokerages in the industry. His guests will be CEOs, founders, executives, and leaders from some of the most successful freight brokerages, trucking companies, manufacturers, and technology companies that support this great industry. Andrew will interview his guests with a focus on their life and how they got to where they are today, unlocking the key ingredients that helped them develop into the leaders they are now. He will also bring to light the fascinating stories that helped mold and shape his experiences.
The Freight Pod
Ep. #53: Grace Maher, COO of OTR Solutions
Andrew welcomes Grace Maher, COO of OTR Solutions, one of the industry’s top factoring companies. Grace graduated from Georgia Tech with a business degree and an accounting certificate and went on to be an auditor for five years. But she felt she was meant for something else. In 2011, Grace got her first job in freight at Nolan Transportation; a year later, Nolan founder Kevin Nolan was starting OTR Solutions, and Grace found the opportunity she was looking for.
In this episode, Andrew and Grace cover:
- The best parts of her dad that she’s carried into her life and career
- Grace’s journey into freight and to OTR Solutions, the early days at OTR, and how the company continues to evolve and differentiate itself
- Factoring 101: What it is, how it works, and its importance in the industry
- Grace's personal story of sobriety — how it has influenced her career and where she is today
Follow The Freight Pod and host Andrew Silver on LinkedIn.
*** This episode is brought to you by Rapido Solutions Group. I had the pleasure of working with Danny Frisco and Roberto Icaza at Coyote, as well as being a client of theirs more recently at MoLo. Their team does a great job supplying nearshore talent to brokers, carriers, and technology providers to handle any role necessary, be it customer or carrier support, back office, or tech services. Visit gorapido.com to learn more. ***
A special thanks to our additional sponsors:
- Cargado – Cargado is the first platform that connects logistics companies and trucking companies that move freight into and out of Mexico. Visit cargado.com to learn more.
- Greenscreens.ai – Greenscreens.ai is the AI-powered pricing and market intelligence tool transforming how freight brokers price freight. Visit greenscreens.ai/freightpod today!
- Metafora – Metafora is a technology consulting firm that has delivered value for over a decade to brokers, shippers, carriers, private equity firms, and freight tech companies. Check them out at metafora.net. ***
Hey FreightPod listeners. Before we get started today, let's do a quick shout out to our sponsor, rapido Solutions Group. Rapido connects logistics and supply chain organizations in North America with the best nearshore talent to scale efficiently and deliver superior customer service. Rapido works with businesses from all sides of the logistics industry. This includes brokers, carriers and logistics software companies. Rapido builds out teams with roles across customer and carrier sales and support, back office, administration and technology services. The team at Rapido knows logistics and people. It's what sets them apart.
Speaker 1:Rapido is driven by an inside knowledge of how to recruit, hire and train within the industry and a passion to build better solutions for success. The team is led by CEO Danny Frisco and COO Roberto Lacazza, two guys I've worked with from my earliest days in the industry at Coyote. I have a long history with them and I trust them. I've even been a customer of theirs at Molo and let me tell you they made our business better. In the current market where everyone's trying to do more with less and save money, in the current market where everyone's trying to do more with less and save money, solutions like Rapido are a great place to start To learn more. Check them out at gorapidocom. That's gorapidocom. Thanks for being a sponsor. And before we get this show on the road, we have one more promotion for our old friend Paul Estrada, who's now launching his own podcast, let's ride. Let's give him a second to show you what he's all about what's up?
Speaker 2:freight pod listeners, long time no talk. It's your good old friend, paul estrada, here to tell you about my new podcast, let's ride with with Paul Estrada, the podcast where Dad tackles the big questions of life, career and everything in between by talking to interesting people that have the answers. Our guests include a 5-million-mile long-haul truck driver, 1993 Rookie of the Year and World Series champion, a school custodian, a 30-year veteran with the LA County Sheriff's Department, and many more. Join me each week as my 6 a half year old son, adrian, throws out a thought provoking question or idea, and I invite a guest to help me sufficiently respond to them. From learning about money and investing to finding a passion in life and exploring careers that can be meaningful for you, we cover it all with a dose of humor and some sound bites of wisdom. The let's Ride Podcast with Paul Estrada, available wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1:All right, welcome back to another episode of the Freight Pod. I'm your host, andrew Silver, and I've got a wonderful guest today for our audience. We're getting into a whole different side of the business that we have not touched on, and we've got an expert here to educate us, inform us, on how the world of factoring works, and her name is Ms Grace Mayer. Did I get the last name right, mayer?
Speaker 3:It's Mar, but I go, everyone says Mayer, so it's fine, it's fine.
Speaker 1:Shame on ChatGPT. I knew DeepSeek was better. I said how do I pronounce Grace Marr? That's right. And it gave me M-A-Y capitalized dash, E-R, which to me is saying Mayer.
Speaker 3:I get it a lot. But you know there's bill maher and so I'm thinking like maybe he's not as well known as, but in my mom growing up would always say it's like the planet mars without an s. I was like that works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if she's got to get that into the chat gpt training. So they know that now and next time there won't be an accent for me, but next time someone else wants to get your name right. Hopefully chat GPT is better prepared.
Speaker 3:Well, look, it's Irish. I think it's really my her, so like it's. Are any of us saying it right?
Speaker 1:It's it's the world you make it like. It's it's the world you make it Like it's your name, you get to be what you want.
Speaker 1:So Grace Marr, the wonderful Grace Marr, coo of OTR Solutions, one of the top factoring companies in the industry. We're coming full circle. For those of you who've been listening since episode one, our boy, kevin Nolan, talked about OTR a little bit. It's one of the businesses that he helped get started and is involved with, and so let's start with your own journey, grace, into the space. Like, take me back. Even before you got into freight, what were you doing? Coming out, you were smart, went to Georgia Tech, is that right?
Speaker 3:I did, I did. I grew up in Atlanta, so I've never left. I grew up in Atlanta, so I've never left. I kind of wish I had looking back, but I grew up in Atlanta and so my parents are from New York, my dad's from the Bronx and my mom's from Long Island, and he moved down here in the 70s to become a sportscaster and he recognized Atlanta was a strong sports city but had no sports news. So he came down and fell in love with, I think, Bobby Cremins at Georgia Tech and their basketball program, and all I can remember from being a little girl was going to the basketball games and he would always say you're going to go to Georgia Tech. And so when it came time to apply for colleges, I actually I'll never forget the application for NYU came in and he threw it in the trash and said we've already had this conversation.
Speaker 3:Only school I applied to, thank goodness. I mean I had good grades, I was going to get in. I was a female in 2000 trying to get into Georgia Tech. I was definitely getting in. So there's one girl for every 12 guys at Tech. People always ask me that stat.
Speaker 1:Why is that?
Speaker 3:Why is that? It's a very well. Traditionally it was a boys' school, but I think I don't know. You know engineering architecture. It was, you know, not a lot of women Historically male-dominated.
Speaker 3:Historically male-dominated. I should probably know the history a little bit better. I just remember calling my dad the very first time I went through the student center because all my friends had gone to University of Georgia or Alabama or Auburn. They're having these amazing, you know college experiences and I call my dad. I said Dad, it's Friday at the student center and they're all playing chess and he's like that's good for you, baby, go go figure it out, you know that's awesome.
Speaker 1:So did you play chess?
Speaker 3:No, I did I. No, I didn't play chess. I uh, I would go to Auburn a lot on the weekends.
Speaker 1:I was going to say you, you went to another school to to find a good time.
Speaker 3:I actually worked a ton through college. I worked like 30, 40 hours through college. So I worked for a small boutique selling high-end shoes and purses called Personality and Soul. Yes, Okay. Personality and Soul. Did you, got it.
Speaker 3:That'll draw you in, I guess, and then I went and worked at Nordstrom, which has amazing service, and so between working for a family owned boutique that you know you had to give great service because, like they could go to the large department stores in Atlanta, so why would you go there? So the owners of that business were very like, big on service and bringing people back, and then, of course, nordstrom, which is an incredible company to work for, I learned a lot about service and so I went to tech and worked in retail.
Speaker 1:Not the expected route, but I actually I hired two people, I think, who either came for I think they did come from Nordstrom and not I Molo, we hired two people who come from Nordstrom and like, when you're running a business, you're always kind of paying a little bit of attention to like where are these people coming from?
Speaker 1:it's just an interesting anecdote to to be mindful of. Like, oh, I get a lot of people who went to this school or this major or they've been bartender and in freight you hear a lot about athletes and bartenders and servers, like waiters and how they do well, because you know it's very service oriented you're. You're dealing with problems, people complaining to you a lot, or team-like environments with sports. In any case, I had never thought about people from a Nordstrom-type background, but both of the individuals we hired from there were incredible and they knew how to cater to the customer in ways that just kept the customer happy. Does that resonate?
Speaker 3:Completely customer happy. Yeah, does that resonate, katie Robbert, mph? Completely. I mean Nordstrom every morning would pull all the employees together and have a stand up every morning and they would do it in like pep rally format where there would be music blaring and like we'd all. I mean this is a retailer right.
Speaker 3:But if, if you think back or at least I do to those days, the shoe salesman which Nordstrom started in Seattle as a shoe company they were not originally a very large department store, so they started as a shoe company, family-owned business, and they really carried so much of the mission and values of that family through and through all those years into Nordstrom becoming, you know, mega retailer of high end. You know brands, and the biggest thing that they would teach us in the morning was just like you know that, that everyone has a choice of where they're going to shop. So why are they going to pick Nordstrom? And we walk around the counter with the bag and and they gave me business cards. I mean I'm an 18 year old selling fashion jewelry, like but they treated me like you're an executive of Nordstrom.
Speaker 3:You know, here are your cards and you hand them out. You get to know people's names. I mean I loved it. And there was an aspect of commission where you know, of course, the more that I sell, the better that I do. And when you looked over at the shoe salesman, those men and women that sold shoes made $200,000 a year selling. Yes, they did so well, I don't think people realize, like if you sold shoes at North.
Speaker 3:Shore they did phenomenal. It was, yeah, I mean it's a great company. Um, it was, yeah, I mean it's a great company. They take care of their people. Um, you know you had employee stock options and you know, even if you work there for a little amount of acknowledged and being told like, how to, you know, acknowledge others and the the way that the store manager would walk through I mean I've just I haven't seen a lot of. You know, um, companies operate in such a way and uh, yeah, nordstrom was an incredible experience.
Speaker 3:I graduated from tech actually with a business degree and a certificate in accounting, because my father said everyone always needs an accountant, so you'll go, you know cause? I was like I don't want to be an engineer. And he said, well, go do numbers. And so when I graduated from tech, nordstrom offered me a position in their HR department to help recruit for all of their new stores. So I helped open the store in San Antonio and the one at Phipps here in Atlanta. And then my father says you cannot work retail. I did not send you to Georgia Tech to work retail. And he says go, dad, good Lord, retail. And he says go, dad, good Lord. So, uh, so I went and became an auditor for five and a half years for a company that did specialize in low income housing, tax credits, solar credits, um, and I did that for five and a half years and then I got into freight.
Speaker 1:So first thought I have your dad kind of mean the limited you know, eight minutes I've been listening to you talk and a few few notes to your dad. He kind of reminds me a little bit of my own father and like this sounds like he was simple and direct and yet always pointing you generally in the right direction so my father is okay.
Speaker 3:He there's not enough. The podcast could be about him. He's incredible. He's a charismatic crazy. I mean totally eclectic, I don't know how. He is a man of nine lives. He is pretty incredible. He's crazy. He started the first rugby league in Atlanta. He started the first, you know, sports radio broadcasting station in Atlanta got fired so he started another one because he's from the Bronx and so he would say things he wasn't supposed to say, you know, and only works on Howard Stern back then.
Speaker 3:Exactly exactly. And you know I mean the stories, you know from his first car was a fire engine and his. You know the stories of rugby parties and you know I mean Studio 54. I've got a lot of great stories about my dad.
Speaker 1:He's pretty awesome but uh let me, let me ask you this before we get in a freight, let's stay on your dad for a minute, and we don't have time for all the stories, but why don't you tell me the best parts of him that you feel you've pulled into yourself, or that you've learned from him that you've applied into your life today and how you are as as a professional, as a you know, personally, I'm just. You know what are the best parts of the first day of school?
Speaker 3:he would make me sign a contract. That school was my job and I would do a great job. Um, a little bit of his uh, well, his sarcasm. He's real sarcastic. So I can be, I'm not. I most of the time I'm funny when I'm not trying to be, but uh, he's, he's hilarious, um, and you know, probably, his love of people. He's incredibly loyal. I am very loyal, just like he is almost to a fault, you know, um, but he, he loves his people. Oh, my goodness, you know, and he's just, he's almost to a fault, you know, um, but he, he loves his people. Oh, my goodness, you know, and he's just, he's a giant teddy bear. So I I definitely got my love of people and affection and you know, and drive to do, you know to, to work really hard from him but there's, there's, no, there's an ode to dad yeah, there's a note.
Speaker 1:You's a lot of a lot of the good from him yeah um, all right. So five and a half years of mind numbing work as an auditor and then you get pulled into freight. Sorry, I added mind numbing. Maybe you thought it was thrilling. I shouldn't have said that. But well, you Robbert.
Speaker 3:Well, you know, what's funny is it was mind numbing. And have you ever done a job where you're like I know I'm not really good at this and it feels bad Like it, at least to me? I don't ever really want to do anything that I don't feel great at which. Yeah that's ego. Yay for ego. You know I was the captain of the soccer team and I, you know, I like leading, I like feeling like I'm doing well.
Speaker 1:Nothing wrong with that.
Speaker 3:I didn't feel like I did well In accounting at a certain point. It's like I don't really know if I care about gap principles, like I don't. That's just not really doing it for me. So and then I sort of realized that they were sending me to a lot of conferences and I was going to a lot of meetings and I'm like, well, I'm really great at sales, like I'm great at the people part, like you want me to sell our auditing, you know, and um, and that would have been fine too and I probably could have done that. But instead I called my cousin Bobby. Bobby went to high school with Kevin. They played football together. They were very close.
Speaker 1:Kevin Nolan, right, that's correct Kevin Nolan.
Speaker 3:Back then everybody started by knowing Kevin Nolan, right, like we, you know. But I called Bobby and I said I don't think I can do this anymore. So, but I called Bobby and I said I don't think I can do this anymore and so if you hear of anything, let me know. And Bobby was working at NTG. Bobby had been in the army and you know we were a really close family, so oftentimes on Sundays we would have family dinner and when Bobby would come home from deployments he would say when I get out of the army, kevin's going to give me a job. And I was at the auditing firm at this time and I was like what are you going to do with Kevin? Because I knew Kevin. I was like what are you doing with Kevin? He's like, well, he loads trucks that are empty. I was like that's a job. And he's like, yeah, it's a great job, he's doing great. So anyway, fast forward to when I called Bobby and said I think I need something new. Like I, if you hear anything, let me know. And he's like, well, kevin might be hiring. Like you should come talk to Kevin. I said, okay. So you know, I got my little interview outfit on and I show up to sit down with Kevin and after about probably an hour and a half of sitting with Kevin, I said yes to a job.
Speaker 3:I went from making $85,000 a year in 2000. Well, I was I forget how old I was, but I was. It was around 2011 that I left the auditing firm and took gosh. I can say this right, I took like $33,000 to get to take an opportunity with Kevin Cause that's how good of a salesman he is and he was so passionate and I was like I believe in the dream that he has and I want to be a part of it. And, um, at the time I think I was employee 20, maybe 20. Um, I was one of the first full-time females he hired and I was going to do HR, recruiting and accounting for 40 hours a week, because none of those were a 40 hour a week job. Okay, and and so that's that's where I started.
Speaker 3:But right around the time that I started, we also Kevin had founded OTR and I started to see as they were looking at paperwork and trying to figure out, like, should we buy this? Shouldn't we buy this? Mike, pass that over here, what are you looking at? And I start matching the PODs with the rate cons and asking what are we doing here? And I'm like this is so up my alley, like we need to figure out if we're going to buy this. And you want me to be nice to a carrier on the other end of the phone, Like all day, I will do this all day and, and that's how it all started and I would come in in the morning and we would invoice in the morning, I would collect in the afternoon and I would sell before I went home and pass the leads to Chris Ebel and he would close them.
Speaker 3:You know, chris, chris, yep, and there were five of us on fold up desks and folding chairs and you know big pens, because that was the nicest office supply we could own. Um, you know, and we joke, I would like if the printer was out of ink, I'd scream shake the toner, because there was always a little more left. You know, I mean we had nothing. Like Blake would yell if we used a post-it note. But why would you use a piece of paper you could throw away? You know, but those were some of the best days you know, it was so fun.
Speaker 1:So I want to. I want to first go to Kevin for a minute. Just Just the idea that you spent an hour and a half with him and he sold you on the job right then. And there it strikes me because this weekend I recorded an episode with my father. I spent four hours talking to him and we talked about sales at one point and I asked him what makes him a great kind of what? How is he able to captivate people the way that he does?
Speaker 1:And he hit passion and, and it's like so true, I've felt like the leaders who are best at just locking people and like captivating them in a way that makes them just so endeared to whatever the person's saying. It is more often than not passion that is a driving factor behind that. So, like I just am curious, like, will you take me back to I mean, I assume kevin was like 25, 26, I mean he was young at the time um, what was that experience like? Sitting there on the other side of the table with him? You know someone, someone who becomes, like you know, a very important figure in our industry with, with the businesses he's helped build and create. What are the other elements that were so kind of unique about. About Kevin, in that moment that you just were like I want to do this with this person.
Speaker 3:He was honest, you know. He was honest about what he was building. He was honest about what he could give and he was honest about what he would expect. And all of those things were like it was going to be a challenge. It was going to be hard work. He couldn't pay me a ton now. Hard work, he couldn't pay me a ton now. But if I contributed to the business and I was, you know, and he made me feel like he had a vision and the right people that were willing to like be a part of it and give what he could give, like I understood that this was like he. He needed me as much as I needed him and if we did it together then we would be succeeding. But he also said it in such a way that I was like he has no plans not to succeed. And it wasn't like a cockiness, but it was like I'm doing this and I'd love for you to be a part of the ride and I need you, but I can't pay you yet.
Speaker 1:So if you want to take you know, know, almost like if I was willing to gamble on myself right and I was at that point and you know you mentioned how before, when you talk to your cousin, he's like he's loading trucks and you obviously never understood that could be a business. Then you're in your first week, or whatever. You're sitting there doing the job and you start to learn about the potential factoring concept here. Was that completely foreign to you too? As you were looking at that, were you like what is this a real business? Like? How did you wrap your mind around the opportunity that you were kind of walking into, given that it was so foreign and just I?
Speaker 3:don't know almost unreal.
Speaker 3:It was so foreign. I mean, nobody taught me about factoring, that was not like. But as I understood it and asked questions and you know there were 70% of carriers factor and like. I also had the experience of working at the freight brokerage. You know, in the beginning of OTR that wasn't a 40 hour a week job either. So I honestly got to do both for almost a year before Fritz and Kevin were like you have to pick a path. I also married a freight broker, so I knew a lot about that side of it too, but I learned a ton.
Speaker 3:But you know, in the beginning it's like I saw I did see the checks going out to carriers was this big and the checks going out to factoring companies was this big. So obviously the factoring companies were established. But you have this concept of like the carriers use a factoring company to get paid quickly. I mean it was all a little wild, wild west back then, but I took it for face value and was like, oh okay, like I understood the idea of doing it better and I've always my favorite class at Tech had been this entrepreneurship forum class, this entrepreneurship forum class.
Speaker 3:In fact, sarah Blakely came and spoke to us literally like a month after she had been on Oprah, so right as like the trajectory of Spanx was taking off, and so I always had this idea that like I knew I wanted to be a part of something right. So I don't know, it was just like it was new, but it was exciting. Like carriers are doing this, let's just do it better. And I kind of felt like I could do the service thing better than anyone in the building. Maybe it was because I was a woman, maybe it was because of my background, maybe it's because I got to talk to carriers all day and that just seemed super easy. And the way the freight brokers were talking to them, I was like, oh, I can be very nice, oh yeah.
Speaker 1:So talk to me a little bit. So, again, this is the first time we've talked about factoring on this show, so I think it's our job to kind of educate the audience on as much of it as we can, and I'm going to be relying on you for that. Let's start with just kind of the, because I think also we want to highlight the entirety of the OTR story and the growth and how you guys have become such a mainstay in the space. So, like, give me an idea in your mind of what the landscape was in 2011 when you started. So OTR was just. You know, you were one of the first employees. The business was just getting going. What did the competitive landscape look like back then? Give me a little bit of that background.
Speaker 3:You know there's some I mean there's more factors today than there were back then, but there was only a handful. I mean more than a handful, but probably no more than I don't know 15, 20 major factors. You know probably less, and they were charging anywhere between maybe seven and even 12%. So let me back up factoring for those who do not know.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah.
Speaker 3:Factoring for those who do not know which. By the way, thanks for inviting me on to explain this.
Speaker 1:So you're the face of factoring.
Speaker 3:I love that, thank you. So essentially the carriers most people don't realize like if well, I guess in your audience does realize that you know there are tons of owner operators out there, independent trucking companies running the freight all over America. It's not just, you know, the Lansars and the Covenants and the you know Schneiders, it's, there's tons of independent trucking companies and these men and women, they are great at moving freight. They're not necessarily great at billing it. They're also agnostic most of the time to the brokers they're working with. They'll take anyone's freight. They'll take the best paying freight and anyone that can keep them moving right, you know this. And again, they don't necessarily always know the pay terms or where they're sending those bills, because once they deliver, that POD is gold. Once you have assigned POD, you get to get paid and essentially carriers use a factoring company. They submit the POD and then we pay them at a small discount that day or the next day and we go bill the broker or the shipper and wait on the payment and probably anywhere between, like I said, 60 and 70 percent of carriers factor and you know the thing about factoring is you can't just like they can pick and choose brokers, they can't pick and choose factors. So once they sign up with a factoring company, they're locked in until either the contract's up and they say, you know, hey, I want out, or another factoring comes in and buys the aging and gets them out of the factoring contract, gets them out of the factoring contract. So at that time in 2011,. Contracts were pretty loose. Factors were charging seven to 12% insane for three day pay maybe. And we came into the market at 5% saying we'll pay you the next day. And people thought we were crazy 5% for next day payment. And um, we took off. You know, as as much as four people and a phone can take off, right. But um, you know, we, we, from the get go. We're answering people's calls which, if you called any factoring company at that time, good luck getting anyone on the phone carriers.
Speaker 3:Once you signed up and you, you had to send everything, you got paid. If you got paid, if they had to charge something back, they would just charge it back willy-nilly, which is really hard for a carrier. In other words, for anyone who doesn't know what factoring is. Once I pay the carrier the $1,000, if the broker short pays the load at all I go back to the carrier and say you have to pay me back Right. Back to the carrier and say you have to pay me back Right.
Speaker 3:Well, a lot of times factoring companies if they don't do their due diligence, if they don't verify correctly and they pay they just pay blindly then they're going to be charging things back to the carrier a lot that can put a carrier out of business. So that was also what we were trying to do really well from the beginning is like when we pay you, we're going to pay you right every time, so you don't have to deal with chargebacks, so you don't have to deal with issues. And we were also one of the first non-recourse factoring companies truly non-recourse, meaning once we buy the bill, if the broker goes out of business, it's on us, we took on the risk out of business, it's on us, we took on the risk. So there wasn't a ton of credit out there for carriers to know like should I work with this broker? Shouldn't I work with this broker? Carriers would take freight all the time and then not get paid. Or if the factoring company did pay them and now the factoring company can't get paid back, they're charging that load back completely.
Speaker 3:So there are a few different angles in which I feel like we came out of the gate immediately and had some momentum behind us, and part of that was the fact that we were competing on rate. We absolutely were competing on service. Competing on rate, we absolutely were competing on service. And we were also competing on, I would say you know, you know the fact that they can depend on the, you know our payment as being one that that they could trust not to be charged back later and put them at risk of having cash flow issues or going out of business because $1,000 invoice like that, they're out. You know small carrier, so yeah, what?
Speaker 1:so I'm curious one like how easy was it to just say we can make money at 5%, let's charge 5%, and here we go.
Speaker 3:I mean not easy. We had to. We were very picky about who we could work with in the beginning. You know, in fact, you know nowadays it's funny it's like I was just having this conversation the other day because you get to a certain size where you can sort of work with most anyone right and take a risk, but back then you couldn't spend time hoping you were signing on a carrier that we weren't going to make money on.
Speaker 3:In fact, one of the first lessons we learned was car haulers. I remember I think it was Chris Tiger, we call him Tiger. We thought we found a honey hole with car haulers Because all of a sudden you started calling car haulers and they're like you'll factor for me? Oh yeah, of course we will. And I think it was like after a few weeks I was like we can't do this, like we're not going to make, we can't make any money on this. This takes way too long Verifying these you know this is not supporting paperwork that they're turning in Like so really understanding, like who we could afford to work with and make money because we couldn't hire either until we could justify hiring another body.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's so funny. It just that reminds me so of the, the kind of notion of in freight brokerage sales, like if a customer gives you loads on the first call you make to them, it's probably not going to be a good customer for you and the. You know, if they're that easy to give you a chance, they're giving everybody a chance and so it's probably gonna be the cheapest freight or, in this case, you know, the most complex company to work with, which is why they were ecstatic at you offering them the chance to factor. They're like you'll do this. Okay, yeah, sure, here you go. Good luck with this paperwork.
Speaker 3:That's right. It's too good to be true? Probably is.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when did the industry? I mean now the rates are like way lower than you know, seven to 12. I was surprised to hear that now what's where's the market at? Like two to three.
Speaker 3:Generally A lot of two to three would be probably fair. A lot of factors will even say you know under 2%. I'll argue it's not their effective factoring rate once you add in the chargebacks. Or then you look at the contract and say, see that there's tiered rate, you know, based on aging. So once the invoice ages to 40, 50 days they'll plug in a fee, you know, for taking longer. So you know, I think it was last year or the year before we started saying like look, we'll look at contracts for free, like you don't even have to work with OTR, because once you start to really look into different factoring contracts you really can pick apart what those, you know what they're really charging. But sometimes you'll even see sub 1%. But those are, you know, are for larger factoring, I mean larger trucking companies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it makes sense with scale.
Speaker 1:The bigger the company, the lower the rate they should get. I understand that piece. What I'm curious about, I guess and I feel like you kind of just validated it. But my thought is, as the market has gotten more competitive and more and more factors are coming into the competitive landscape, there's been a fight for every dollar and rates have dropped. And now you know, like we've seen in freight, as it gets too crowded, people start to get a little shifty and creative in a maybe not so healthy way to make their pricing look more attractive than it is. It kind of sounds like what you're suggesting some companies in the field have done.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean definitely. I think the most important thing anybody can do is really understand obviously their contract, which sounds simple. But when you break things apart, obviously their contract, which sounds simple, but when you break things apart, it's like is it as simple as it sounds? When you just see on the screen like 1%, like if I call, if I call any trucking company today, I'm like, hey, are you interested in factoring? The first thing they ask is what, what, what rate do you charge? It's so price sensitive, but if you, but then that also to me is an indicator of how long someone has been in trucking, because carriers who've been in trucking for a long time and have ever worked with a factor know that it's more than just the rate.
Speaker 3:Otr has never been the cheapest factoring company in industry. Quite frankly, we're not trying to be like that's not. That's not the space we play in. We charge, I think, exactly what we need to charge to service an account, to keep the carrier successful and to cover our costs of doing business and being a partner. You know we will certainly, now that we offer different things, we will bundle things. If you're using our fuel card, we can go lower. If you're using our banking solution. We can go lower. Obviously, you keep a lot of things in house and it makes sense Like we can go lower. But you know, years ago we had someone joke like Gucci didn't go on sale. And I know, no, no, it doesn't. And you know we are a Nordstrom, we are a boutique, we are Chick-fil-A, we are a. You know, when you come to us you will get someone on the phone and we will support you and I promise you you will succeed if you're working with OTR.
Speaker 3:With OTR, we're not just about buying an invoice and charging it back, and you know it's so much more than that now. I mean honestly, like when the market took off after COVID, there were people in the market trying to say, well, factor for free. They're no longer factoring at all. So you know it's like, and that's fine, you know, competition's healthy. But you know, I think we've stayed tried and true to what we've been doing since day one and that's continuing to evolve. And, and you know, in the beginning we said we're more than just factoring company. Today we truly are, you know, a platform of smart technology that helps carriers and we happen to, yes, buy bills, but we also do so much more and, at the end of the day, we truly are trying to show that if you work with OTR, you stay in business longer. That's the mission critical. Hey, you work with OTR, you will succeed.
Speaker 1:Thank you for explaining all that. I have such a level of appreciate, a high level of appreciation for someone who can say about their business, like in a business that you know, as you said, the first question for every prospect is what's your rate. So it's clear there's such a central focus on the factoring rate and for you to kind of have the confidence to be able to say, hey, we are not the cheapest and we're not trying to be Like you have to be really, really confident in the business behind you and how you can service your customers outside of price, to say something like that and for it to hold water. So it's funny to me too, because when my partner Vogert and I got canned two years ago and we were just thinking of what else we could do, he wanted to start a factoring business and he's like we should get into factoring.
Speaker 1:It's similar to brokerage. It's super fragmented. There's like thousands of little guys and then there's a few big good ones, but there's room for someone to maybe come in and disrupt. And I kept being like dude, it's all just a rate and it's like it sounds so boring, like what am I? Every call is going to be like what's your factoring rate and I got nothing else to sell and clearly I didn't understand kind of all the nuance behind it. But I want to get into a little bit of that because, as I put thought into it, I just kept thinking all right, well, we have to be able to offer other things besides a rate. If we're going to do that and we're not going to do it, to be clear.
Speaker 3:So, there's nothing here you can share.
Speaker 1:That would you know, whatever, but I'm curious how, over the years, from where you were in 2011 to now where you sit as the COO and the business is, you know, one of the top in the industry what have you all built into the package that is OTR to make it more attractive than just a rate?
Speaker 3:Yeah Well, and it was funny. I was talking to Clayton this morning and I was like so what? All you know how much should I say Cause you know? But we share an office which you know I love so much. I don't know how many you know executives share offices, but we do, at OTR. Know how many you know executives share offices but we do at OTR and it's, it's, it's pretty awesome because you stay super connected and tight and like the conversations he's having, the conversations I'm having and you know Fritz, and like like it's it's great and anyway, we're joking, and I was like, don't worry, you know I never give away the secret sauce, but no, you know, look we've.
Speaker 3:We continue to create solutions based on what our carriers are asking for, and two of them you know all of our solutions are on our website, so none of that is secret. Certainly, you know fuel, they need fuel. We obviously have our partnership with M, which helps with insurance. Um, you know our banking solution with clutch, so we're already paying them. Why do we not make sure we're paying them? You know where they're at, which is on their phone, and you know the clutch mobile banking app allows us to pay directly to that, that bank account, and then they can use it right away. And our mobile app. We were one of the first factoring companies in 2012 to have a mobile app. We were one of the first factoring companies to ever pay off of a copy of a POD. People thought we were crazy.
Speaker 1:Why is that so? Why would paying off a copy of a pod be a problem?
Speaker 3:well, you remember back in the day the trip packs right members of the kiosks in the at the truck stops trip pack. They would put all their originals in the trip pack and then they would be overnighted it is. I don't remember that oh wow, how much am I way older than you. That that's so funny.
Speaker 1:I'm 34. So, you do your own math there? Yeah, I know not to ask.
Speaker 3:Okay, a little bit. Yeah. So the originals, the factoring companies will only pay off of originals. Because we had to build a broker and so many brokers would, at that point, only pay off of originals. Why the broker and so many brokers would, at that point, only pay off of originals? Why? Because the longer it takes to get the original, the more time you have to pay the carrier. Right, so it was a whole.
Speaker 3:So here we are saying we'll pay you off the copy and then, when we get the originals, we'll go build the broker and the carriers are ecstatic. You mean to tell me, I can send you a copy, you'll go ahead and pay it, then you'll get the originals, and and so that was like revolutionary. Um, so you know, and, and again, just even getting someone on the phone. Look, it sounds so silly, but money is personal and when you need to get paid, like, you need to get someone on the phone. So you know, when we think about, like what we're doing now, today for the carrier, for the broker, you know, with ePay and now our broker payments, like we've come full circle. And you know, we want the brokers to realize that if you are loading an OTR carrier like, you're essentially working with OTR.
Speaker 3:So now we have brokers that are like hey, they're phenomenal. And we have carriers are like hey, they're phenomenal, and we create a network where everybody goes like working with OTR is fantastic, and I use their fuel and I use their banking. You know, and you know, oh, you know, like there's if they're using DAT and they take a load, it immediately shows up in their client portal or on their mobile app. So now, when they deliver the load, they can just upload the paperwork, trying to make everything super seamless to where, eventually, they just drop paperwork.
Speaker 3:Nothing is entered. We handle it all. I mean, we continue to think about how we can evolve as a business. And so, yes, it's so much more than factoring and it's like, what more do you want? Tms integrations, you know fuel advances, of course, you know on top of, you know, but you know 24-7 payments, and you know, and, just continuing to think about, but you know 24 seven payments, and, and you know, and, and just continuing to think about like, how are we doing it and how do we do it better? You know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, a hundred percent. I mean, it's such a. There's clearly so much customer centricity in how you and your team think about the business and it's one of the things I always I never, I always respected how Kevin had gotten his kind of tentacles touching every part of the industry and I guess never realized how beneficial it can be for a business like factoring to have these ancillary businesses that can be coupled together, bundled together to create better offerings. Because I just you know, if I was I'm just trying to put myself into the shoes of a truck driver or owner operator and I could see how my first question when you call would be about the factoring rate. But I could see how a good salesperson would help me by the end of the call, realize that with just this one person I can solve seven of my problems versus just what percentage I'm getting discounted or I'm being discounted off my freight rate and that's cool. I mean it's a cool evolution of the business.
Speaker 1:I'm curious if you could maybe try to touch on. You know I want to get into your own personal kind of rise from, you know, being the fourth or one of the first few hires to now being the COO. But before we go there. I'm just curious in the seat you're in now, what is the experience or process like for you and the leadership team as you contemplate new solutions, as you contemplate new ways to cater to the customer? You've clearly added over the years a number of different pieces, I'm sure bit by bit. I'm just curious what that thought process looks like from hey. Carriers are complaining about not having the right kind of bank account to. Let's put clutch out to the universe right.
Speaker 3:So you know, what I would say is like we've never lost touch with the carriers themselves. Um, I, to this day, like know, I have so many carriers in my phone that, because I was one of the first account managers, you know, obviously, like, as as we came up in the business, like we all sort of took a different piece and you know, mine was always very client focused. I love our clients, like I love our employees and I love our clients and the people part is my favorite, like on the upside, if you understand what our mission is and that's to continue to help clients service them. Well, you know, you know we we constantly are checking, like our Google reviews and like how people are feeling and making sure that we're checking in with them. And so I, you know I say that to say like we would hold focus groups back in the day In the first few years we would have something called happy trucking new year.
Speaker 3:It was absolutely free. Our carriers would come in January. I would MC this thing, right, I was so nervous, but I would. But we would set up a day of education for the carriers. We'd bring in like the Georgia DoT Officer Burns and he would do a whole. Like this is what I'm looking for when I do a roadside inspection.
Speaker 3:We would bring in insurance, like people that to talk about. Like when you're getting your renewal, what are they looking at? We would talk about load board, you know. We would talk about, you know, factoring, just like Q&A, like what are you struggling with? Like what do you need more of? And it was in sessions like that that we would get, you know, our next idea. And then we would all sit in a room and talk about it.
Speaker 3:And one of the things I love most about, you know, the team that I work with at OTR is that we're very collaborative and nobody holds back. In other words, like that's a good thing, because nobody's just like co-signing on, like I have an idea, okay, we'll just do that. It's like, well, why would we do that? Well, if we're going to do that, we should really be doing that Right, and you know, and when we all get in the room and we do that, it's just, it's awesome. Like we don don't. Nobody builds or does anything in a vacuum, that we're not all sort of picking apart and then calling a carrier and saying, like what do you think?
Speaker 1:how do you think that kind of culture developed?
Speaker 3:you know, you've heard kevin say this, this, and we also hired people that loved to play team sports or were really driven. I think this beautiful thing about OTR is it really is a bunch of very competitive yet really solid, good humans. That that came together and that team, like a joke, that the early, you know otr team is like the 90s chicago bulls. You know fritz is phil jackson like and he let all of us be are you mj? No, I'm scotty pippen, I'm okay, yeah yeah, and everybody needs a Scotty.
Speaker 3:But like I'm always, like I'm Scotty, you know, and we would joke in the, you know, in the early years I'd say, you know, I don't need to be Michael Jordan, like I'll be Scotty, somebody else can be Michael. But all you know, it wasn't till the last dance came out, the documentary that people like understood. I was like, did none of you know? Like, because we hire so young, I'm like did none of you know about michael and scotty and this whole thing? And I don't think they did really.
Speaker 3:But I used to post pictures around the office of michael and scotty, like be michael or be scotty, just be one of them, you know. And we had our dennis rodman and our Sue Karen. We everybody played their role, um and uh, and it was really, really fun. And we you know Fritz always said like it's, it's the most fun when we went together and we celebrate together. And um, you know, we were always, we were really young.
Speaker 3:So we came up together too, like we would, we were just together a lot. You know, we've grown up together, we got married together, we've gotten had kids. You know divorces, like life we're lifing together. So you know, at this point, there's just an immense amount of trust and the way we show up for each other and work really, really hard. Like I used to joke OTR was my first baby because my sister would say, like you know, you're not saving lives, right? Like you're not, you're not delivering babies. And I was like, of course I'm not. I'm not a doctor, but like what I do matters to me. I really care about the carriers, I really care about I think what we do is important. Freight is the backbone of America, so it's important, I love that so much.
Speaker 1:I mean, it just puts me right back into my own mindset, mindset of, yeah, we're not like saving lives. However, it feels really important to do the work we do when you're as passionate about it as you are, clearly, and you're with a team of people who will liken themselves to the Chicago Bulls of the 90s. It's like that's a group of people who are so committed to something like they have this vision for what they want to be and they're willing to do whatever it takes to become that thing and to achieve that thing. And when you see yourselves having that success over multi years and years a decade plus for your team it's like the trust gets to an unprecedented level. The confidence gets to a pretty dang high level and like the, the importance feels like it gets to such a high level because there are so many people like intertwined, counting on one another. I mean, how big is the otr team today?
Speaker 3:at our highest. You know we are pushing 400. We are know less than that now, but yeah it's. We've certainly grown it's. It's.
Speaker 3:It's been fun, you know, and not without its trials and tribulations. You know, we've all gone through stuff and we don't co-sign each other's BS and we've, you know, but that's what makes it awesome, right, it's like, and this freight cycle, as you know, but that's what makes it awesome, right, it's like, and this freight cycle, as you know, is so like this like the highs are high and the lows are low. So there's good years, there's tough years, you know. Um, yet it's been amazing.
Speaker 3:Like you know, we've had people that started with us as an intern, you know, drew now as our general counsel, like went to college, passed the bar, like people that have literally worked so hard and not just said like I'm gonna go work at otr, but like I'm a career otr person, you know, like I'm gonna drink the kool-aid and that's not a bad thing and I'm like it's not a bad thing. You know, I don't get these people that don't love their job Like go find something you do, like it's there's tons of, you know, opportunity out there. Like you know, I don't know why anybody would spend their time not doing something that they don't.
Speaker 1:You know they don't feel good and passionate about, but I used to say the same thing to my team is you know this job isn't for everyone and you don't even have to be in love with the idea of moving trucks, but you can love the process of working on a team with really good people who are working on that team with you trying to accomplish something. And it isn't for everyone and you know you got to spend. I understand there's a little bit of a touch grass concept to what I'm about to say, but it's like you know you're going to spend eight, nine hours a day, every day, working, and that's like likely half or a little bit more than your waking hours in a day. Why wouldn't you do whatever possible to find something you enjoy, at least a little bit?
Speaker 1:right, I mean it's like you only get one shot at this life. And I understand you got to pay bills and not everyone has 100 job offers that they can pick from. But if you really don't enjoy your job, you got to do whatever you can to find a job that you will enjoy. I mean, it's just that thing that has always been really apparent to me.
Speaker 3:I completely agree. I mean, in all of our first interviews when we were hiring, it was like we needed to make sure we hired the right people because we really, honestly, by the time we could bring someone on, we desperately needed them, but we needed it to be the right person too. But I used to say to people like you, spend more time here than you do with your own family. Like you, you should enjoy it. If there's anything you should ever be selfish about, it's your career. You know, like, figure out what you want to do, but in other words, like, don't come here unless you think this is like what you want to do and what you could be passionate about, Cause we, like you know we're all in this together and luckily that first I mean I would say our first, you know, even 50 employees like it was just, it was magical.
Speaker 3:Like it was not that it isn't today. Like it's just different when you get bigger, you know, people feel like, do they notice me? And it's like, yes, of course, Like, but every, every generation, if you will like, of hiring class that comes in has to be willing to like bring the next one along, Right, Like if you're just wanting me to be the glue, like that's never going to be enough. Like I I'm always going to say I care and I love all of our employees, but everybody has to be part of the glue and say, like I'm in it and you know, and that's what we're trying to always do continue to like, bring to the office is, you know, we've done a really great job, like over the years, Um, I think of of really making sure that, like we don't lose touch of, you know, the OTR. What's special about OTR?
Speaker 1:Talk to me about your own kind of rise, because you started as, like, an account manager doing two jobs for two companies, or maybe four or five jobs between the two companies or functions. At least you rose to now be the COO of the business. So can you just talk to me about what do you think are the qualities or aspects that you displayed that led to that kind of rise? Because I just think these are the coolest stories. I think it's really cool to interview founders who build business, but I think almost more cool is seeing someone who comes in as like the lowest level possible and rises to the top and like how do they do?
Speaker 1:it is, I think, fascinating.
Speaker 3:Oh, thanks, don't be modest Let me, let me preface.
Speaker 1:Let me preface, before you give your answer, that she's not going to be modest. She's going to give us the hard truth and it's not going to sound arrogant or whatever.
Speaker 3:Hard truth, hard truth, hard truth. I'm very I want to be, you know, a part of the success. You know I, I genuinely want to like be up there in it. I want, you know, I want a piece of that Like and um. You know, if somebody's got a lead, why can't it be me? You know I, I love being a part of the success.
Speaker 3:You know I don't know if it's my father and his. You know, bronx, like you know you say, you know, you say what you mean, but it's like I've never. You know, from the time I was 13 on, I actually lived with my dad and my uncle. My uncle was in the Marine Corps, my father was this crazy radio host and I'm comfortable with men, so that part never bothered me, like being in a very male dominated. You know, when you hear people talk about freight and there's so much like I'm like none of that. I never felt. I never felt like I wasn't with them. You know I played basketball with the guys at lunch at the accounting firm and I worked out with the baseball players and high school. Like I, I'm comfortable in those settings and so for me it was just making sure that. You know if, if it was, you know, creating new process or hiring, or being a cheerleader for, like, the carriers and what they needed, or you know whatnot, like why couldn't it be me? Um, and I would say, as the years went on, you know, um, more and more responsibility was added and I welcomed it. More and more responsibility was added and I welcomed it. You know I, if, if something needed to get done, you know I'll do it. Um, because I felt, I don't know, I, I understood we were building something and and it was exciting and, um, I took on the challenges and sometimes not knowing what to do, but you know, that's where Fritz comes in, like somebody who guided us but also allowed for us, if we did fail to, you know, do it gracefully, no pun intended, and like, work through those things or collaborate enough together to be like we're not doing it like that, or we are, or I would challenge you know sometimes what we were doing, and I think that earned respect. It was like, why are we doing it that way? Like I don't, and so it just sort of came naturally.
Speaker 3:And then, in 2016, I actually got sober and I tell you that piece of it because I don't think I'd be where I am today if I hadn't. You know it's definitely a part of. You know, if I'm not going to be modest, you know it's like well then, thank God, I, you know, went and got a 12 step program and have, you know, you know, coming up on eight and a half years of sobriety. Congratulations, thank you. Half years of sobriety, I thank you.
Speaker 3:I definitely know that if I hadn't made that choice at that stage of my career, I would not be where I am today, 100%, 100%. Um, and you know, I know what it looks like to continue down that road. I did not know what it looks like to continue down that road. I did not know what it looked like not, and to go get help. And I quietly did.
Speaker 3:And you know, since then, I would say the team at OTR does, has known, you know, about my sobriety and is insanely supportive and it's been amazing because along my journey I've helped people, you know, on theirs and you know that's been a gift and so it's just really cool because you know I work with people who love to work hard, play hard, and I was one of them too and I still am.
Speaker 3:But you know, it's just different now, like when I go out, you know mine doesn't necessarily have alcohol on it, but that's OK, like I still go out for drinks and still have a great time. But but yeah, that was. You know, I don't know if that's not what got me to COO. It's certainly innovation and and you know, partners and execution and hiring the right people. I work with incredible people and so you know, knowing who to work with and who to hire and who to bet on and who to let and who to delegate to and who to let run, and you know, and then they do it. You, truthfully, it makes my job easier, right?
Speaker 1:100. So if I heard you well which I had I thought I had summarized your answer until you hit me to with the sobriety and then you went into another. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna go through what I heard, okay, um, so advocating for yourself is is a key part, this and you talked about putting yourself out there, wanting to be a part of the success, not being shy or afraid or uncomfortable about the male-dominated situation, which also, I think, is a non-don't-be-a-victim mentality. Don't be a victim mentality. You know, if you want to get somewhere, you can't look at the room around you and see it as an obstacle as much as like I belong here, I'm going to use my voice. You talked a lot.
Speaker 1:A lot of you didn't say these words, but you alluded to the idea that you were never afraid to use your voice, whether that was volunteering to do whatever it takes to get the job done which to me, is another piece of what helps you rise is that kind of do whatever it takes mentality, but also to challenge the room and to challenge the status quo and to say, hey, I think we should double check that or think about that twice, or whatever which does garner respect. I mean, I think groupthink is one of the biggest inhibitors of innovation in businesses and it's so easy to just want to fall in line with everybody around you when the exec team is contemplating a new idea, because it's just easier to do that than to possibly stick out as the person who was wrong, right. So a lot of that I'm picking up from your answer, and then I commend the kind of willingness and vulnerability to speak to the sobriety, and I just believe people who have gone through what you've gone through are tremendously resilient. People have had their asses kicked and had to put their ego in check and deal with what feels like embarrassment at first of sharing that with people and feeling like there's something wrong with me. And the reality is there's nothing wrong with you, there's nothing wrong with any of us that have gone through things like that where we've had to put something down because we just, you know, enjoy it a little bit too much.
Speaker 1:And the amount of resilience it takes to get up and stand there with confidence and go through the next phase and tackle all of that. Stand there with confidence and go through the next phase and tackle all of that it's extremely commendable. I respect the hell out of it and I think it, I think it absolutely. You said that's not why you're this. Well, you said that helped, but it's not why you're the COO, but I would maybe add that it's. It's probably a contributing factor to why you are, because I bet you have a lot of respect from people who appreciate that. They know you, truly know you for who you authentically are and I just commend it.
Speaker 3:Thank you, that's so nice and I do try to lead with vulnerability, just because I think I mean, I don't know, it's like once you let the toothpaste out of the tube, you can't get it back in.
Speaker 3:You cannot put it back in. Yeah, this is just like. It's just me and I am. I am vulnerable, I have to be, um. You know, I think when you do I, you know, regularly go to meetings I work with others in recovery. I'm very passionate about it you end up really discovering like a lot more about yourself, because a lot of times, when you were in the thick of it, like you were, in my case, very functional, right, like I'm working really hard, I'm getting things done. I'm zero to 90 in a lot of phases. Right Like, if I like something, I want more of it. So, um, so you're right, Maybe it did have something to do with where I'm at.
Speaker 3:You know, I. I remember when I first went and got help, I thought, god, this is like this is the lowest of the low right, like this is like this is how you know, and um. And then I started to walk into rooms and look around and I was like I want to go where the successful people are, because it didn't. It didn't occur to me in the beginning like successful people actually like really successful people, are actually in recovery too, until I found this one meeting and I was like pulled in. Part of it was that I pulled in and, as silly as it sounds, like I could tell from the cars, like who are they? It's a Saturday morning and I guess if you show up to a meeting on a Saturday morning you must really want it. You know recovery, so, but it was incredible experience.
Speaker 3:I have met over the years some of the most incredible people that are mentors, you know, not just in recovery but in the professional world, and how they lead themselves and it is being authentically yourself, you know, and it is not being afraid. You know I'm definitely not one of those people that like, knows what I like because of the billboard, right, like I've had to really like what do I like to do? Because when you first give up what it was that you like to do, I assure you you don't know yourself at all. You know. You don't know I'm like I used to like patios and pitchers of beer, like that's. You know. So more than that. But anyway, all that to say, I think it's been a really special several years of watching OTR grow and I'm grateful I've been a part of it, you know, and it's just, it's because of my sobriety that I've been able to to certainly be a part of it. So.
Speaker 1:Well, vulnerability is the key to connection and if you lead with vulnerability and you're willing to share things like this with your team, with the world and a podcast like this, you are inviting people to connect with you. You are offering them, you know, something meaningful to you and not knowing what they'll do with it, not knowing if they'll try to use it against you or judge you and all those kind of negative thought patterns we have about ourselves when we're going to that place of being vulnerable and talking about things that we've struggled with. But I've done this before with my own struggles and you know, I talked to my employee base at one point about some of my darkest challenges I've endured and like the compassion I was met with and all of a sudden, I had meetings with all these people where they set up and they wanted to tell me about their own challenges, and it's like people want to meet you where you are and when you show that you're willing to be human and talk about your own issues. It's like it's a freeing feeling for others to be like wait, I'm not the only one with problems, like and the problems can be so different.
Speaker 1:It could be gambling, you'd be drinking, you could be smoking, it could be, you know, video games or shopping. It could be anything that just is an unhealthy practice in your life. That's like weighing you down and you're feeling guilt or shame about, but at the end of the day you come to realize that we're all struggling with something, and the ones who look like they aren't probably are just as much. And the sooner you're willing to talk to people about it, the sooner you can free yourself of all the kind of negativity in your own head that there's something wrong with you, because there's nothing wrong with any of us. We've all just had the circumstances we've dealt with in our life that got us to where we are. But those choices are choices we've made, but they're not choices we have to live with forever. We get to make new choices every day about who we want to be and how we want to be.
Speaker 2:So I don't know, I just appreciate you sharing all that.
Speaker 3:Thanks yeah.
Speaker 1:So, anyways, where do I want to go from here? Let's talk a little bit about the last two years in the space. It's been a really hard few years for everybody. I think for factors too. I'm certainly thinking about brokers and carriers, and what has that been like in the OTR world or just even in the factoring world in general? I'm not looking for specifics around numbers, but I assume as interest rates rose, that makes your business more challenging. Can you talk a little bit about that, the impact of interest rates to your business, something like that that you can't control, what you can do within the business to navigate those changes? And then I want to talk a little bit about how the industry at large has dealt with the last two years and what you guys are seeing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because most people don't realize that the interest rates and how they affect our business from the cost of capital right. And so the past two years have been insane as far as like. I remember when the market took a dive like the nose dive what was that Like?
Speaker 1:late 2022 and 2023. Yeah, at the end of 2022, leading into early 2023.
Speaker 3:Yeah and so, and I remember shortly thereafter a partner of ours in the space called me and he said are you going to be willing to factor for carriers for free because of what they're going through? And I was like, for free, no, for free. And then also carriers start calling in, like I need a lower factoring rate because I'm getting paid significantly less by the broker. And it's like, right, but our interest rate on the cost of capital? Like we have to borrow the money that buys the invoice and we're only doing it at a certain place. And then, on top of it, now brokers are not paying us in 30, 35 days. Right now they want 40 or 45 days.
Speaker 3:And so when you talk about a carrier who needs that money today, probably you know. You know when things are great they can wait a day or two. If you know it doesn't matter as much. They might turn it out. They might turn all of their invoices in at the end of the week, but when times are tough, they're living load to load and when they need to get paid, they need to get paid by us that day, and so we've got to get the money out. We're not getting it in. It's costing us double what it costed us, you know, previously to purchase it. And it's like the last thing we want to do is raise our rates when they're struggling. And so you know it's.
Speaker 3:It's funny the carriers don't realize, like when they're doing well, we're doing well, when they're not doing well, we're not doing well and we're not trying to make it harder for them. Like, if anything, even we realized, you know, as an example, you know, when a carrier gets charged back an invoice, let's say, let's say I pay the carrier $1,000 and then come to find out, you know they're, they were late and the broker's charging them 500 legitimately was their fault, right? They they're like yes, I was, I was late and I'm taking the deduction. It's like okay, well, bob, you got to pay the $500 back. Our non-recourse doesn't cover your inability to service the load the way you said it would.
Speaker 3:And he says well, grace, I can't pay it back right now. Like, I've got my truck, note, on Friday, I've got my insurance. I also have to pay the driver. There's no way I can give you that $500. Well, bob, when can you give it to me? Well, I'll give you a hundred dollars over the next five weeks. And imagine if you have thousands of carriers who want to do that and you're managing thousands of carriers who want, and then, on top of it, they want to pay back the $500 over the five weeks at 0%, they're not going to pay you right? They're not like this.
Speaker 1:It's a free loan essentially, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I know it is for sure, it's just these are the things that we're dealing with on a regular basis as a factoring company, and so you think about all those factors who are just trying to win on rate. It's like if we're struggling, I know you're definitely struggling and you know I feel like we have done a great job to not struggle and I I say that you know carefully because I'm not trying to, you know, brag, but I feel like what we did and have done over the years. First of all, our system is proprietary, so we built all of our own software and the algorithms and the things, everything that we have at play that allows us to understand if we want to purchase an invoice and that's been one of my favorite parts to work with our operations team and the business intelligence, rob and his team and really understanding should we or shouldn't we buy this and how do we use AI and algorithms, all these things to verify and do it right, because if we can do it right upfront, we don't play that game on the back end of chasing money and that's costly to everyone. You lose clients that way and it costs your factory and business a lot of money. You know the cost of capital and time value and all of that, so you know doing it right Assessing fraud.
Speaker 3:Fraud is a nightmare. I don't think you know no one's shocked by hearing that it's like what are we all going to do Besides? Come together. You know no one's shocked by hearing that it's like what are we all going to do besides? Come together, share information, work with the other companies that are developing great tools. You know we've got data. How do we share the data? Like you know, it's really everybody coming together to combat this at this point because it's craziness, like it's crazy.
Speaker 1:Where does it hit the factoring company? Like what does fraud look like when it's infiltrating your camp? Like how do you guys get kind of screwed over on fraud?
Speaker 3:Yeah, double brokering, carriers, stealing MCs and signing up with OTR under that MC, and then even the most recent one, a carrier. It was a really sophisticated kind of freight or fraud situation where not only did they steal a carrier's identity, but then they planted a broker, an actual agent at a brokerage, and really created and it wasn't just OTR, it actually was.
Speaker 1:They got a real person hired at a real brokerage. Oh wow, that's okay, keep going.
Speaker 3:And by the time, the brokerage realized, like wait, we've got to bill our customer for all these. And they go to bill the customer, the customer's like I didn't run any of this. So you know, it's pretty crazy, the fraud that continues to happen. But I, what I love is that our team is, we find these things. We immediately, you know, we're building things, even, we're immediately thinking about if we build're immediately thinking about, if we build a banking solution, if we build a fuel card, if we create, you know, on our mobile app, you know, pay me now fuel advance, whatever, what are all the scenarios in which someone will try to create fraud. We will invite everyone in. Let's brainstorm, let's talk about it. How are we exposing, you know, risk and and and at that point, you know we're trying to get ahead of all of these things. But you know, it's like, you know, no one's can do it perfectly, and so we learn too, but we try and learn.
Speaker 3:You know, we try and learn very quickly and hopefully you know minimally, you know minimal damage minimal damage, that's right.
Speaker 3:Minimal damage. Hey, that's my job. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta answer to people if we don't, and so, um, you know, it's really, really important and we have a lot of sops in place and a lot of things, too, that our team knows. Like I say, if you wouldn't buy it with your money, you don't buy it with OTRs, like, I think, always, this is the way we thought about it in the very beginning. You know, and it doesn't matter how big we get, like if you hit, if that processes and that payment goes out, it's like as if it was your own.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are you all seeing? I mean, you guys have one of the, I think, earliest eyes on potential market shifts, because you're seeing all the invoices. What kind of information are you seeing? Everyone's calling the recovery has started and the recovery, the recovery, the recovery, and I'm hopeful that it has, but I don't know that I've seen the evidence to support it. What are you seeing on your, your side of things?
Speaker 3:We're not, you know. I mean we're not not, but we're not you know. Look, you know we we are private equity backed and you know we have a budget that we come up with every year, and so it's really important that we try and guess as accurately or forecast as accurately as possible. So sorry, You're fine, no, no.
Speaker 1:Dogs are welcome on the show, are they, moose? It's okay, buddy, you're young.
Speaker 3:No, sir. And so you know, honestly, recently, like volume, january is a tough month anyway, because most people take time off and you know we see it, just it's slower. Freight rates have been slightly better than we expected, but, um, you know, and we are also very, very hopeful. I didn't, you know, I would like to think that it will happen this year. I don't think where we've been is, you know, the new normal, but I and I do expect rates to hopefully go up.
Speaker 3:I'm excited about, you know, the economy and you know what's to come, certainly what's happened in California with the fires and so sad. You know. Even you know actual rebuild, like there's a lot of rebuilding to be done. You know for the next several months. Or even you know people potentially moving because that's so I don't know you know people potentially moving because that's so, I don't know. You know we, we do know that sometimes, like these type of events do can trigger like obviously, you know, um, freight sort of movement as we watch things rebuild or as we watch relief going into those areas. Um, yeah, so it will be interesting to see, but but no, I can't say like, right now I'm not going to tell you. I think we're on the trajectory today. No.
Speaker 1:Do I think we?
Speaker 3:will be From your mouth to God's ears. I hope so. You know I'm not going to no, we'll see.
Speaker 1:I appreciate the apprehensiveness.
Speaker 3:I'm going to. I am going to do everything we can to hit and exceed what we have forecasted, which we think is reasonable growth, and we will continue to try and exceed expectations.
Speaker 1:But nothing right now points to we're we're on a takeoff. Yeah, what's the biggest thing you're working on right now for the future with respect to continuing to build and turn otr into like the factoring company for the space?
Speaker 3:automation of, um, you know invoices and doing those. I listen. I think we will never lose that human contact because for myself, the team at OTR, the veteran management team that's been there, everyone the people part is what's really special about OTR the connection that we have with carriers. But you know our algorithms and automation can buy better than a human looking at a piece of paper, you know, on a screen. So certainly, utilizing, you know, tools to help us purchase invoices and be able to do so 24, seven, at any point, at any time a carrier says I want to get paid and I want to get them paid, you know.
Speaker 1:Yep. So, speed to pleasing your customer.
Speaker 3:That's right.
Speaker 1:Good thing to focus on.
Speaker 3:Carriers need money. We're going to get them paid brokers too. So it's you know it's both the broker, carrier and broker payments. Like, how do we make that easier for for both sides? Because if you can pay the carrier, why can't? Why? Why does the broker need to re audit it? Why, if I've already audited the paperwork, would the broker ever need? If we did our job and you can trust that we did and most brokers should trust that OTR is, why are you spending time and money reauditing it to send it to your customer?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so this is what I think that's you know we're trying to convince the market right.
Speaker 3:Like you don't, you get it from us, like we will immediately pay our carrier bill, your customer, and that's what you know, that's what ePay can do. So you know we're continuing to extend, sort of you know the evolution of what we're currently doing and how do we do it more quickly and how do we take some of the process out that's duplicated after we're done with it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's going to ultimately come down to trust and your ability to convince the market that they can trust you, and I think that's done over time through execution and proving it, and I certainly think your team has proven quite a bit. Maybe there's just a little bit more. So my last question for you, and then I'll let you go what advice would you give to individuals in the industry whether they're a brokerage or factoring or tech vendors, wherever it is who want to follow a similar career track to your own, you know, coming into a company when it's early, beginning and rising to be the CEO of the business over 12, 13 years, whatever the timeframe has been?
Speaker 3:All right, I don't know if this is advice, but this is a story of like, of how I always thought about it. You know, kevin and Fritz are first cousins or second cousins sorry, second cousins and I would imagine, years after we started. I would imagine them if they were out to dinner, right, and they're having like a drink and they're sitting around talking about, like you know, years after all, the success of these businesses and they're like you know what, like let's play a game. If we had to do it all over again and you could only pick five, who would you pick? Okay, you had to start NTG and you had to start OTR and you could only pick five. You know, like let to start NTG and you had to start OTR and you could only pick five.
Speaker 1:Let's say you had to do that with Molo, right To be clear. So I'm laughing because that's not a hypothetical Bogart and I have literally done that. Oh, we have. Okay, these are real conversations. I don't think I'm unique to that. I think these are real conversations that people who have been in our seats have had, so I can appreciate this.
Speaker 3:I have actually thought if that was ever a conversation like I need to know that they're saying my name and the only way that I can know that they're saying my name is if I show up and I make a difference and I make an impact and I and I, just I continue to help drive the business forward. And you know, I love to tell you every day I'm doing that, you know, but I jokingly, I'm like, every day I'm like, you know I do. I do genuinely want to help others in the business, like achieve what they're trying to achieve and collaborate. And you know, if, if we say we're doing this, I want to be a part of helping, make sure it's going to get done, and and that is using your voice, and that is 100% like being in the rooms and not being afraid to challenge, like you know, an idea, and I don't ever want to be the woman in the room that's just talking to talk. You know I'm not anybody's hype woman.
Speaker 3:You know sometimes I'll say nothing, sometimes I'll say a lot of things. It's just picking and choosing your moments where you know either you have an idea or you don't, or you're just challenging it or you're, you know, mentoring someone else. Or you know you're having a drink after work and you're, you know, coming up with an idea on a napkin, which is part of our story. You know it's like just be one of the five. You know, try to be one of the five. If you're trying to be one of the five, that's probably even enough. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. So I love that, thanks. I love visualizing and creating a motivational track for yourself, like if they're sitting here, my name's got to be said, and that can be such a powerful driver to just put yourself back in that visualization every day and be like, hey, if I'm going to be in that five, I need to do this right now, I need to get this done. So thank you so much, you've been an incredible guest.
Speaker 1:I feel like I've learned a lot about factoring today, but, more importantly, just learned more about you, and you're an awesome person and I thank you very much for coming on the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you, andrew. This is great. Thank you for having me. I'll see you soon.
Speaker 1:Alright, everyone. That's all we got. See you next week.
