Ep. #86: Liz Wayne, Founder & CEO, Able Transport Solutions

Rates are spiking and the scary part is why. We kick off with a June truckload market update built on real broker payment data, then we zoom in on what the numbers are actually saying: van, reefer, and flatbed buy rates are surging year over year, but freight demand is not the headline. Capacity is. Enforcement pressure, compliance friction, and a permanently higher cost floor are squeezing the supply side, and that changes how you price, how you source trucks, and how you talk to customers.

Liz Wayne, CEO of Able Transport Solutions, joins me for a grounded look at flatbed and heavy haul logistics. We talk about why open-deck freight is harder to execute, how rare equipment like multi-axle RGNs can turn a single mistake into a massive TONU, and why proactive communication is the real “margin protection” strategy. We also get honest about the truck in hand myth, what shippers should actually expect from a broker, and the mindset of never giving loads back.

We go beyond ops into leadership and strategy: staying focused as a founder, building systems that prevent half-finished initiatives, and learning to delegate without losing standards. We also dig into the Supreme Court negligent hiring landscape and what it means for carrier vetting, shipper contracts, indemnity clauses, and risk. Finally, we hit AI in logistics, back-office automation, and why data center construction may be a quiet demand engine for flatbed freight.

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Transcript

Sponsor And June Market Update

SPEAKER_01 0:00

If you're listening to this podcast, you know the drill. Rates are spiking, margins are tight, contracts are dangerous, the Supreme Court ruling is in, the sky is falling, and so on. Really, though, in an ever-changing market, your pricing and sourcing have to adapt fast and stay dynamic. That's where Triumph intelligence comes in. Built on green screen's AI technology, it delivers real-time predictive rates based on your data so you can quote accurately in seconds. But here's the kicker. Now that it's part of Triumph, you can tap into their leading network of nearly 70% of brokered freight transactions and more than 170,000 real carriers. You simply cannot get better data anywhere else. Head to Triumph.io slash more capacity to get a demo today. Before we get into this episode, we're trying something new today, brought to you by our friends at Triumph. We've got our first monthly market update. Every month they publish their truckload market intelligence report. It's built on real broker payment data, actual transactions, not surveys. And every month I'm going to break down what I think matters most for you. The June report just dropped, and folks, this one's a doozy. Let's get into it. The headline. Year over year, broker buy rates are up 46.7% on ban, reefer's up 48.5%, and Flap Ed is up 52.1% year over year. Let that sink in. If you were buying a Flathead load for two grand last June, that same load is costing you more than three grand today. And here's the part that should really get your attention. It's not slowing down anytime soon. Just month over month from May to June, Flap Ed jumped another 9%, Van 7%. This isn't just produces and noise. This is an actual structural repricing of the market, and it's still accelerating. So why is it happening? This is the important part because this isn't a demand story. Freight volumes aren't booming. This is a supply story. Capacity is constrained. You've got enforcement actions taking trucks off the road, pending legislation creating uncertainty, and compliance friction that's making it a lot harder for marginal carriers to jump back into the market the way they did in past cycles. Tender rejections continue to climb. Spot rates have firmed up ahead of contract resets. It's the mirror image of what we lived through a few years ago. And look, the carriers who survived the bloodbath, they're finally getting paid. Diesels actually come down, which helps their cash flow, but it doesn't come close to offsetting what's happened with insurance, driver wages, equipment costs, litigation risk. The cost floor for running a truck is just permanently higher than it used to be.

Regional Hotspots And Lane Strategy

SPEAKER_01 2:34

The regional story. Now here's the nugget in this report that I found most interesting the actual regional data. The Sunbelt is simply on fire. Southeast Van is up almost 58% year over year. Southern Flatbed 56%. Southeast Reefer 61%. Meanwhile, the Northeast and Northwest are running 20 to 30 points cooler than that. And the gap is widening. Southwest Reefer jumped nearly 12% in June alone. So if your freight network is heavy on Southern Outbound, if you're pulling out of Atlanta, Dallas, Florida, your contract book is definitely underwater way faster than the national averages would suggest. So know your lanes. The national number is almost meaningless right now compared to your regional exposure. For some historical context, I want to point out one more data point. Triumph's index goes back through COVID, and from the April 2024 to the January 2022 peak, rates moved almost 70%. We are already pushing back towards that COVID era ceiling. But here's the difference that run-up was simply demand-driven. Everybody was buying couches, pelotons, toilet paper, what have you. This is very much supply-driven. And supply-driven inflation doesn't unwind when customer spending shifts, it unwinds when capacity comes back. And right now, there's simply no sign of that happening anytime soon.

What To Do By Role

SPEAKER_01 3:50

So what do you do about it? Let me hit you seat by seat. If you're a broker, your contract commitments are where this hurts. My advice, get ahead of it. Go to your shippers now, be transparent, start the rate conversation early. I'm not saying drop all your commitments and start burning relationships. That's reputational damage that will last way longer than this cycle will. But it's really important to come with the data. Show them exactly what's going on and have an honest conversation about how you can work together to improve both of your situations. Carrier vetting is no longer just a compliance checkbox. In this market, defensible carrier selection is actually a margin strategy. If you're a shipper, the procurement playbook you built over the last two years assumed that cheap, abundant capacity would be available in perpetuity. That assumption is dead. Your bid strategy needs to reflect the market you're actually in, not the one you wish you were in. It's time to kind of saddle up and recognize that your carriers are struggling and the ones who have been good to you. It's time to figure out how to firm up their business to ensure that they can continue to support you the way you want them to. And if you're a trucking company, congrats. You've got pricing power, real pricing power for the first time in years. Be selective, be disciplined about your network. Keep your compliance house in order because that's obviously the most important thing right now to getting yourself paid. And be honest and transparent. There's no reason to just bail on all your commitments, but you should be able to go back to your customers and find a way to make sure that you continue to make good money through the cycle. So that's it. That's the June update. Big thanks to Triumph for putting this data out every month. If you want to dig into the full report yourself, it's free at Triumph.io. We'll be back next month to see if this thing keeps running. Now let's get back to the show.

Meet Liz Wayne And Entry To Freight

SPEAKER_01 5:49

I'm your host, Andrew Silver, joined today by Liz Wayne, CEO of Able Transport Solutions. Welcome to the show, Liz. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Great, Andrew. Great to meet you in real life, virtual life, and great to be here. This is my favorite podcast.

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Is it really?

SPEAKER_02 6:08

Yeah. You're doing a great job with it. No, I don't tell everybody that. I mean it. It is really uh you've done a great job. I feel like I knew a lot about the industry, and I feel like I've learned even more now listening to all the episodes. And I love it. Everybody, a lot of people have that same feedback. So excited to be here.

SPEAKER_01 6:27

I appreciate that. Well, you were a highly regarded or suggested guest uh by one of my favorite guests I've had, Mr. Charlie Dehoney.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Uh a fellow, I guess, Nebraskan. Is that you're in Nebraska?

SPEAKER_03 6:42

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

Yep, Omaha. Um, my brother actually played hockey in Omaha for a few years. So we used to go, he was on the Lancers. Uh, so we used to spend time out there watching their games.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yeah, I met your dad last year at TIA and he knew a lot about Omaha, but then he told me why. He had you guys had spent a lot of time here.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah, so whatever time I spent there, he probably spent 15x the time because I think he went to every game Brian had versus I went to you know two or three a season. So he was uh essentially an Omaha resident out there for a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yep, and then he's got some staff here now, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I have one interesting story from my time in Omaha where I went to a bar for the Iowa Nebraska football game, which like big rivalry, right? Yep, yeah, and so uh after the game, they the new the local news channel came in and they were interviewing, they wanted to interview die hard Nebraska fans, and I pretended to be one and they interviewed me, and it was not a good year for Nebraska. This was like seven, eight years ago, and they were like, what do we need? Like, what do you think we do about the coaching situation? And everyone was like, hi on this Scott Frost guy. And I was like, we gotta go get Scott Frost, we need him on the team, ASAP. Uh and you know, later that night I was on the news as you know, this diehard Nebraska fan calling for Scott Frost. I think they hired him and then fired him shortly thereafter. He didn't do so well.

SPEAKER_02 8:10

Yeah, that's I think how his coaching career went.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Short-lived.

SPEAKER_01 8:17

Anyways, speaking of not short-lived, is your freight career, which is what we're actually here to talk about, not uh my stint in Omaha. So um, yeah, I I'd love to start if you just take me back to like how you found the industry, um, and let's let's see where that takes us.

SPEAKER_02 8:38

Yeah, so it was a happy accident for me, like a lot of people. I mean, I think you were kind of born into freight. I didn't know anything about freight until I accidentally, you know, stepped into it. But fundamentally, I graduated high school um a few weeks pregnant, and there kind of went my plans. I was gonna go to UNL, to the university, be a Husker. Those plans sort of got put on the back burner. I'm like, well, I'll have to take some night classes and get a job. And so once my son came in January, I had been waiting tables, and so I had like random, you know, sometimes I'd work at 5 a.m., sometimes until 10 p.m., and that just didn't work for daycare. So I'm like, I need an office job. And the first I went to a staffing company, and the first office job I was offered was as a receptionist at Hill Brothers, um, trucking in Omaha.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Great career.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

So really that's how I got introduced to the industry. I've told this story a few times, but they had an automated phone system. They didn't need a receptionist. So there's like nothing for me to do. And I had a newborn baby at home keeping me up at night. So I was like very tired. And a few times I even sort of did one of these, you know, and kind of started falling asleep. And so I'm like, they're gonna fire me if I don't start doing something around here. And so I just kind of everybody else was super busy because it's a trucking company. So everybody's hair is on fire all day long. And so I just kind of started asking people if I could help them with this and that, and um did a few things there. I moved over to the accounting department. Eventually I moved to one of their brokerage divisions, which now I understand they have a more expanded logistics department. Back then, I don't know if I would have really called it brokering, um, because I came to know brokerage later, but nonetheless, worked in their brokerage department. Um, so yeah, spent about five years there. That's really how I got sucked into the industry. And then from there I went over to I had an opportunity to be Bat Logistics first employee. And so I was there on day one, and um then I really saw like wow, these guys are like selling services with no wheels, you know, like they don't have a truck to send in. And I and I really learned um the founder over there had been from CH. And uh so really learned that true non-asset play and had so much fun there. Um and then eventually about five or six years later, wanted to start ABLE and move in that direction. So that's just kind of in a nutshell how I how the evolution went.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

So you came in at 18 as a receptionist and spent essentially 10 years kind of cutting your teeth across two different companies before deciding you wanted to build your own brokerage.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

Yep, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

What what was driving that kind of desire to go out on your own?

Starting ABLE With Flatbed Niche

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Well, it's funny because my husband says this whole thing is his idea. And to some extent it is. I mean, it was like on our first or second date, I'm telling him what I do, and he's like, Well, why do you do that for somebody else? Why don't you do that for yourself? And at that time, I was sort of offended by the question. Like, I love my job, you know. Um, eventually. Now, I will say though, I've always been an entrepreneur. Like, I've I've just got that spirit that's in me. I'm a builder, I'm a creator. So, um, but fundamentally, like I wanted to use some of those skills and build out a flatbed division. And at one point I thought there was opportunity to sort of manage that flatbed PL over there and kind of have some autonomy there. And as it turned out, the founders kind of wanted to go in another direction. They didn't really um what I was doing was really the only flatbed we did. They weren't really much interested in that market. Um, but I still was. And so ultimately, I guess that's kind of what that you know final straw was and why I bit the bullet and went for it.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

What about flatbed was appealing to you?

SPEAKER_02 12:57

It's fun. There's so much I like about it. And even today, I mean, it's 98% of everything we do, and we'll continue to do. Um so we're very, very niche focused. But I like all the different challenges that come with it. Um, there's just more layers of complexity that I think is fun and interesting, more opportunities to add value. Um, I also think like we get to work with the best of the best. I mean, you know, you don't really like I don't which side carriers. I don't think a lot of people like get into the business and get straight into that. And so I just feel like the drivers are more experienced. Um the carriers provide a little better service. Um so I enjoy having extra problems to solve for the customers. And then in turn, you know, I I do. I think we work with the cream of the crop when it comes to the carrier base.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

I mean, it makes sense. I guess you kind of said it, but just for the audience who maybe didn't pick up on it, your suggestion was that you know, a new truck driver is not as likely to just start and flatbed. It's it's way more likely they're gonna be hauling like a normal dry box, dry-van, maybe a reefer. Um, but like the simplest would be, you know, a 48 or 53-foot dry-van trailer where you show up to the dock with a PO number, you back in, they load the thing, they close it, maybe your checking account to see that everything's in there, uh, and then you drive off and go deliver your product. Um but with Thot Ed, who knows what you're getting? I mean, whether it's steel coils or you're going to a construction site to do some kind of project freight, like it could be any number of things. You might need straps uh that if you don't effectively um strap your product in, there's like significant risk for danger and safety. Um so I get what you're saying, where um you probably are getting way more experienced drivers than the average drive-in driver. Um so that's interesting. Um, I like that.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Yeah. And then once ABLE got going, you know, it really I don't think when I started ABLE it was like, okay, this is all we're gonna do. It definitely was interesting to me, and I wanted to do more of it and just kind of go explore on my own. Um, but like in the beginning, you need revenue. Oh, we'll do anything, you know? So, but after we got our first couple of like real enterprise customers and got going, it's like, oh yeah, man, people have left this behind. People are failing here, and we have great opportunity to um to shine. I mean, I just I found it really easy to differentiate in this space. It's getting harder though, people caught on. Um but yeah, it was fun.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

It makes sense. I mean, when I think about my brokering career as a sales rep, I had a few flatbed customers that did some steel. Um but it that was so much harder than just getting a a dry-van load and and quoting it or a re even a reefer load, which had super volatile pricing seasonality, obviously with produce and whatnot. But getting into flatbed, it just felt like you were kind of on the carrier side, like it was an abyss. Like that, like there wasn't, you know, there wasn't just like the DAT where you had thousands of guys waiting to call when you posted a decent load. I always felt like, where am I gonna find this flatbed driver? Like it, it's it's not less, there's not as many of these kind of 500. There are some of these, you know, the mountains of the world that are, you know, hundreds of trucks on the flatbed side. But I feel like on the carrier side with flatbed, it's a lot more owner operator based or or small mom and pop type deals. Is that do you feel that way too?

SPEAKER_02 17:02

I agree. And so that's where brokers, that's like brokers are supposed to be their sales arm, right? Like that's where the broker adds the most value on that side of the market is to those owner ops and microfleets. Um, so that might be another reason that the niche, you know, that it just works so well.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Well, is is there anything that you would think that that like flatbed heavy hall teaches you about carriers that general freight like wouldn't?

Heavy Haul Costs And Safety Details

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Well, I mean, that's a good question. I was gonna say trust to no one, but uh that's with all freight, right? Like um I think for us, a lot of you know, making sure that these guys are really equipped for the job, like one thing that goes a long way for us, because if you're talking vans or reefers, 24 or 26 pallets, right? Like that's the question. But to 48, 53, like what do you there's just so many sort of other variables. And so I feel like from the care, one thing that's really beneficial to us and that really is like never and but again, this isn't a huge problem back to like them being the cream of the crop. But now I'm thinking of like the specialized stuff we do, the permitted stuff, the big 10-axle RGNs, the the the places that there's really no room for air. I think these drivers are really good about just really doing all the work on the front side because to avoid waste, you know, in the middle of the transaction. And I mean, if you think it's bad to deadhead a van 50 miles, I mean a 10-axle RGN 50 miles and there's no load. I mean, we've had we've paid $5,000 toneus here at Able.

SPEAKER_01 18:47

Um what's the context in which a tonu might be $5,000? Help me understand that side of the story.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah. So I mean, if you if you've made a 12-axle RGN and there's only you get on the load board looking for one, you call all of your all of your guys that have over 10 axles that have ever hauled for you, you go through the whole, I mean, there's only so many of them in the country at any given time. Like it's not, oh, I'm gonna pull them from the next market over. Um, there might not be one in the next market over. And so really it comes down to how far you're deadheading them in. And so, I mean, it, you know, if a guy's commanding $10, $15 a mile, and you know, you've got to deadhead him in 500 miles and and something goes wrong, I mean, it's a lot of waste. There's a lot of expense there. So it can get it can go sideways pretty quickly.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

What's what's an example of something you might haul with a 12-axle RGM?

SPEAKER_02 19:52

Oh, like a giant dump truck. Do you ever watch any of like those mining shows or anything like that? So, I mean, those dump trucks alone are gonna weigh, you know, 120,000 pounds.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

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Quoting Without Truck In Hand

SPEAKER_01 21:39

show. And and you know, is is it easier to kind of get customers to understand these challenges and therefore like pass through these things? Like I assume this is all kind of I mean, I think like any uh transaction in in freight, whether it's dry van, refrigerator, or this, the more you Proactively communicate across both sides, the better the outcomes, and the easier it is as a broker to not get caught uh like paying stuff out of pocket. But like when you have a shipper requesting you to come pick up their dump truck and move it across the country and you gotta find a 12-axle RGN I assume for one, everything is quoted truck in hand, right? Like are or are you still kind of oh you so you're still kind of go ahead. I mean, I'm talking about.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

Yeah, no, I mean, are any of my customers listening? I mean, I think I think customers for any freight, for you're shipping food, you're shipping a dump truck, like they would like to think that brokers always have a truck in hand. But like, we know that's not the case. Everything we do is a gamble and a risk every day, you know. So I would say no, but I would say since it's all we've done, we do consider ourselves the best. I mean, so the best at pricing it, sourcing that capacity. Like we do think, um, well, not think, like we know load by load, a load like that. Our competitors aren't gonna do better than us. Um, it's really just a matter of like understanding, I forgot the question now, too, but understanding like how sophisticated the customer is. How much do they know about their freight? You know, because that's another um thing that could make heavy haul go sideways. Now you have the and and you can relate to this. Like some customers know their freight and their supply chain and and what goes on between point A and point B, like the back of their hand. And others are like, don't ask, don't tell. I don't, you know, I don't want to know, like that's your problem, that's in everything in between. But I would say um, the more the customers know about their own freight, the more successful everybody will be together. Um, but I really did forget the question. What did you ask again?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

So I I was getting to the nature of like passing through a $5,000 truck over used. And let me get through. So, like, and and part of the thought was like in an instance where they're requesting something so rare, an equipment piece that is so rare. And I guess I I I want to talk a little bit about what you suggested around truck and hand quoting. But my thought was like, you know, if I know I could be on the hook for a $5,000 truck order not used, before I even book the truck, I'm calling the customer and saying, hey, I've got a truck. This 12-axle RGM, though, is in Dallas. I know your load's picking up in Kansas City, so I'm gonna send him there. He'll be there tomorrow to pick it up. But if something goes wrong and this dump truck's not there or not ready, like I'm paying him $5,000 and that's a pass-through, and you're paying it. And I assume in that world, it's a little more accepted given the scarcity of equipment.

SPEAKER_02 24:56

Yeah, a hundred percent. Those conversations, that would be exactly how we'd handle it. You know, if we're sending him 50 miles down the road, it but if we're sending them all the way, it's like, hey, are we sure it's ready to go? Are we sure if it's gonna take a crane to load it? Are we sure the cranes are ready to go? Are we, you know, and just it's a lot more dotting the I's and crossing the T's. And we try to do that as proactively as we can, just because of what I said. When it goes sideways, it goes sideways. So um, yeah, we try to do as much of that sort of laborist double triple checking on the front side as we can.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

Yeah, and now let me defend your comment because I hope your shippers are listening. I know there are shippers that do listen to this, um, but I want to take your side here and just say almost never did my company quote with a truck in hand. And it's just not that's not the business that we're in. Um if if we had to go secure a truck for every spot quote or opportunity that we had before we quoted it, our our we we would waste so much time because you're not committing, you're not committing to me if I find a truck. You're committing to me if I find a truck at the rate that you want. Um, so what we determined was the best strategy was to trust in the data that we developed over years and also in our ability to execute on any load we commit to, um, and combine those two things to know that whatever price we give you, we're gonna find a truck and move the load. Now, as a shipper, like it's just it it's not reasonable to expect your brokers to always quote with a truck in hand. It just is not. And um, I think that at the end of the day, as a shipper, your determination is how much trust do I have in the follow-through and execution of the team quoting my freight that I'm willing to give them the freight. And ultimately, my position is that like over time they'll show you who they are. Um, there's there are times where a truck's gonna break down an hour before pickup, and and like you're not gonna be able to recover that because 60 minutes is maybe not enough time to find a truck in Boise, Idaho or wherever. There are also times that brokers are gonna lie and say that a truck broke down 60 minutes before pickup. Why? Because they couldn't find a truck for the price they wanted. Now, outside of Liz's world here, where we're looking for 12 actual RGNs, um, I'm a believer that you can almost always find a truck. Uh for the right price.

SPEAKER_02 27:33

There is always a truck.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Always. Yes. And so I just think at the end of the day, it's it's it's like understanding who you're partnering with and having confidence that they will follow through and they make commitments. And if they don't, replace them. Because while I don't think there are a ton of excellent brokers out there who will follow through on their commitments and do what they say, there are some, and there's enough of them out there that you can build a good business or a book good supply chain with right partnerships to support that. Um now, I say all that to say your world seems a little more challenging, where like it's not always as guaranteed that you're gonna be able to find that really sophisticated or challenging truck with the right driver. Um and so I guess I'm I'm curious like strategically how you kind of approach like quoting in general and just like thinking about the kind of customers you want to work with, because I agree there are riches and niches, and and having a niche is uh a way to stand out, but the niche you've chosen is certainly a challenging one.

SPEAKER_02 28:41

Yeah. Um, I love everything you said about truck in hand, and I I really wish shippers understood more about our business so they would realize how unreasonable that is sometimes. Now, on a 120,000-pound dump truck, it might be reasonable, you know, more so than a more standard load. But it all comes down to like your dad talked about it and talked about it how important it would be at Coyote, and he contributed or he attributed a lot of the growth to it of just like not giving loads back. So that's like, I mean, have we failed on loads? Certainly. Has have have we rolled loads? Certainly. Like we have not given a load back, you know. That's not to say that we've never gotten in trouble and a shipper found something better, faster, you know what I'm saying? But we have like never given a load back. Um, and your dad talked about that on his episode. And I think that that's fundamentally what makes it work. And that's what should give shippers the confidence in these bids. They're not, would you believe? I just heard the term paper rate for the first time like two years ago. I'm like, what? I'm like, paper rate? What is that? Like at bat, we did not give loads back. And at evil, like we did not give loads back. So, yes, it's a gamble, and no, you don't have a truck in hand when you put that price in. But if you get that load, you're gonna service it. And so, I mean, you have to have that mentality if you're just going to bid freight without trucks and without you know, trucks in hand and that. Um why do I keep forgetting your questions? I'm just babbling now. So you talked about the the niche and the flatbed and what customers um so for us, we haven't you talked about it being a harder um space. We have another sort of my business is besides just like open deck, I've also tried to target what I call the unpredictable supply chain. And so that I do some steel and some commoditized freight, like I would call the steel, the lumber, the nursery stuff, like things like that kind of commoditized. Um, but really where I want to be is working for construction companies and moving equipment around. And, you know, that one piece of equipment isn't just gonna move to the grocery store and be consumed, you know, it's it's gonna move 35 times this year, and I want to move it all 35 times. Um and so that's where we kind of found our place. And and I I do think shippers in this niche struggle some because not all brokers understand it's easy to fail, let's put it that way. If you don't really know the flatbed heavy hull world, it's easy to make a bad first impression. And I think that that's happened so often that the shippers can be even more skeptical, um, you know, on the front side. But then it doesn't take much to earn their trust. I mean, really a couple of loads with a team as seasoned in this stuff as mine, and they can tell the difference pretty pretty much out of the gates.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

What's the hardest part of the niche you're in? Like in in terms of whether it's execution or growing it or supporting it? Like what what is the real challenge there?

Systems That Keep Founders Focused

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Um, you know, this could be in relation to this niche, but really you're an entrepreneur, so you can probably relate as well. But like focus, you know, I think entrepreneurs like to chase shiny things and stuff. So whatever your niche is, if you sort of have that ADD and you want to go do this, do that, it's just it's hard to stay niche focused. Like that's focus alone is challenging and and and trying to keep things simple is challenging.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Yeah, I and I'm curious when you say focus, is it harder for you personally to focus stay focused or for the team to keep the team focused on probably me personally?

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Yeah, because I I feel like I see other freight or other opportunities, or even other types of business, and I'm like, oh, that'd be fun, or oh, I'd be really good at that, or whatever it might be. And so it's like, Elizabeth, you do flatbed, heavy health freight, focus.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

I feel that. Um, do you have ADD, ADHD?

SPEAKER_02 33:17

I don't know. I'm not diagnosed, but maybe.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Yeah, okay. I I it was I was diagnosed two years ago, so it's it's been something I've spent a lot of time looking at in my life, and um it's a superpower in some ways, and it's also a uh uh it can be a real challenge. Um, but we don't have to go down that path.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

I was gonna say, tell me if you relate to this. Sometimes, you know, I used to give myself a lot of heck for like not finishing things. And the last couple of months I've been trying to reframe that because I'm I'm starting to think that getting you just said superpower, but getting so many things to 80% might be better than getting one or two of them to a hundred percent. What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Yeah, I think it's really interesting because I have a similar challenge um where like I want to get things started quickly. It's just like my nature to like have an idea and go start doing it, and it gets abandoned often before it's completed. Um, and it's it's just I think one of the things that my therapist and my executive coach, two two women that I've worked with for uh three and and four to five years, the latter a little on and off, but uh they both know me very well, and they always pointed to like it's all about the systems and structure you create around yourself and understanding that like for me, it was Matt Bogrich who was like the perfect kind of yin to my yang, who was our COO and president, um, where it's like I could have this kind of I don't want to call it erratic, but like bouncing off the wall, kind of let's go after this, let's do this, let's do this, um, and be the kind of idea person knowing you have kind of an executor, someone who can actually pick up wherever you leave off, or pick it up from start and be like, here, here, why don't you not even start it? Huh? We like your idea, but let's let one of our people start it so they can take it from A to Z versus you taking it from A to K and not really giving everyone all the information of how you got from A to K and then just passing it off and hoping they figure out the rest of it. Um, so like I I think there's some value in what you're talking about, and and it's really about how do you give yourself the right support system to not let things fall off altogether or to see them through the finish line in a way where it's like done well versus you know the worst case is you have this idea in your head, you go start it, you know what you want it to be, you get some other idea, so you pass it to someone else, but you do it in a haphazard way, where like you don't give them enough of your expectations or enough of the information, you go focus on something else, then that person fails to meet the expectations you never even really gave them. At which point you're now upset with them because you're like, What the hell? Why didn't you why didn't you kind of get this done the right way? And they're like, I don't you didn't even tell me what the right way was. I don't this sounds like this maybe ringing a bell for you.

SPEAKER_02 36:25

Yes, definitely. Have you done any work with like EOS, visionary integrator?

SPEAKER_01 36:31

Um, I not EOS, but uh something very similar where I don't even remember what it was called. I could find my results though that my coach Thea had walked me through. And as you were describing yourself, I was like, this sounds like she would have the same results that I had, which is like kind of the self-starter. Um, you know, you can get things going, but um finishing is not really the your strong suit.

SPEAKER_02 36:58

So Matt would have been your integrator, but I have I feel like I have an integrator now. Um I hired a president for ABLE about two years ago. So it's my only direct report. It's been my only direct report here for a couple of years, which has really, I feel like I'm doing my job for the first time, which is awesome. Um, but that's where I get to be, like thinking about ideas and what we're going next and where, you know, because it was hard for me to do both. I can like nail the day or the planning and the future. I I'm not really good at doing both at the same time. Like if I'm in the weeds, I can't, you know, see the forest through the trees or whatever the saying is. I just I'm literally unable, but I can do really good at like managing a day, but I can't do both. And so since he's been on board, it's been really, really helpful to like I've really been able to move into kind of like visionary, what I would really call a CEO role here just in the last year or so.

SPEAKER_01 38:00

Are you an active controller as well? Do you mean like on the accounting side, like the controller or like no, no, no, not like accounting. I actually was so definitely was referring more to the latter, but the terminology I used was actually from the Enneagram test. Uh, I don't know if you've ever taken an Enneagram. If you haven't, uh I'm gonna make you take it and give me the results, and I'll share it with our audience. I'm pretty confident you're gonna be an eight, which is an active controller, um, which is definitely someone who likes to be in control of their situations, but is it a lot of CEOs fall in this category? Um, I'm just curious, like so I don't want to use the term control freak, but are you someone who likes to generally be in control of your situations?

SPEAKER_02 38:45

I mean, I think so, because even just when I think about some work that I do with the TIA and how, so I've been on the board for five years and I chair the programs committee and stuff. And even when I think about my work over there, which is like more collaborative, and I'm I'm not the boss, right? Like there's a committee of us working together. Um leading through influence is probably more challenging for me than leading with authority. Um so yes, but at the same time, I have like done great work in letting stuff go. Like, you know, even five years ago in my business, I would have really cared way more about how things were done, like specifically, probably at too granular of a level. And I think that that did slow my growth rate because I was just too obsessed with perfection for too long from like an operational standpoint. Um, and so I know that I am less controlling than I used to be. Like I and I mean that too. And then it's been great too. When you really do some work there and think about it, it helps you start to appreciate other people's um qualities more. And you know, I I would say like five to ten years ago, I would think I was the best person in the business to do any function in the business, anything.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

Um there's no ego there at all.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Yeah, right. Um, and now it's kind of like I do, it's like, okay, who's the best for this? You know, man, this person is really good at delivering bad news. And this person is really good at introducing the company to people. And you know, this person's really good at this. And so I can confidently say that I am only the best at like half of the things now.

SPEAKER_01 40:47

Only half.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

I mean it's like bad things. But seriously, though, I really mean that. Like five years ago, any function from a check call to a sales call to reviewing the financials, anything in between, I would have said, like, I was the best person. And when you have that mentality, it's really not fair to the people that you're leading. And it's really not because it's not true. It's just, I mean, it's not. And um, so I'm I'm growing and working in that way for sure. But do I like to be in control? Probably.

SPEAKER_01 41:21

Are you paying more every time your freight volume grows? That's not scale, that's overhead. Bitfreighter is the freight integration platform built for transportation. Connect shippers directly into your broker TMS and automate the life of your loads from quoting to communication to execution. Replace those unpredictable EDI costs with fixed-rate connectivity and use live quote to move from waiting to winning. With thousands of pre-built integrations on Bitfreighter, you're not looking at another integration project. You're looking at turnkey shipper connections. Reduce manual work, create more opportunities, and grow without transaction penalties. Bitfreighter is the only platform that connects you to all of your shippers, allowing you to automate quoting through invoicing with both Shipper Connect and Live Quote. Go to Bitfreighter.com to learn more now. I appreciate the honesty in uh in that answer. And I'm curious, can you pinpoint anything specific that you did to kind of nav to experience that growth? Like, what was this like working with a coach, a therapist, or like what are some actual tangible things? Because there are a lot of people that I think relate to what you just said, specifically entrepreneurs and founders. And if someone said, Man, I want to learn to let go the way she did, what would you tell them to do?

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Yeah, so this is funny. Um I don't know if you've ever heard of Vistage, it's a CEO coaching peer group thing. So I um did just step back here recently, but I was part of a vistage group in Omaha for five years or so. So I would say that that work with the coach and the group probably got me going down that road. And and I love how you talk about your therapist, by the way, and just your experience with therapy. Um I needed it.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

But need it.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

But like we all do. I mean, I feel like if every human could be in therapy, the world would be such a better place. But um I think working with that group helped open my eyes to it. Eventually, I started to realize that I was gonna burn out because I can't do every function. And so, like, I was able had become bigger than me. And so you can't, you can't keep a leash on something bigger than you. Like, and I was proud that it was bigger than me. Um, but I also knew for it to grow any bigger, I'd really have to like, you know, make some changes. But my vintage group um helped me really think about things. But what I would say is my husband also one time going through, I can't even remember what I was hiring for and what I didn't have confidence or faith in someone for, but he was laughing, like, who the F are you? You know, and I'm it's like, wait, you know, and it's like, well, who the F are you? Like, you didn't know anything about freight. You didn't know anything about, like, why wouldn't you give people around you that same credit that they can learn and they can like a tech call is not that hard. I should not be the best person in the company at a tech call. And so that would be my advice. Like, ask yourself, who the F are you? You didn't know anything about freight either. And you learned it and you figured it out, and other people can and will too.

SPEAKER_01 44:45

Look in the mirror.

SPEAKER_02 44:46

Yeah. I mean, nobody. This is another thing I've learned from your show. Um, and I think you'd agree with this, but I'd be interested to see what you say. It's like you got Ryan Peterson and Jet McCannless, and like, you know, I I've come to think or to realize that there's really two kinds of successful people in freight. So the first is like genius, like they're really freaking smart. And the second is they're just obsessed with the customer experience and everything's for the customer. And I think those two groups of people can get the same results in freight. And like, don't get I put myself in the ladder, and I'm not dogging myself. Like, I'm very confident in my intellect. I'm a smart person. I'm not, you know, but I'm talking uber smart genius. You know, I don't put myself in that category, but I am obsessed with the customer experience and how the industry is failing the customer. And I've noticed the same thing with a lot of your guests. Like that's where they saw the opportunity was in improving something for a customer or a potential customer. And so back to like the control thing and delegating and all of that. Like, if you can just instill that with people that you're bringing up, this obsession with the customer, they will learn the rest. Like, if they can just learn that, they'll they'll figure out the details.

SPEAKER_01 46:22

Yeah. You've done something. You've done something that makes it hard for me to run the show, which is get me really thinking.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Um really, though, those are the two types of successful people in freight. They're either geniuses or they are obsessed with the customer.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Well, it's hard to not be, it's hard to win if you're not doing the latter. And so it's maybe there's a crossover where people are able to do both. Well, actually, maybe not, because I think some of the smartest, I think some of the companies led by the smartest people. And this is almost a negative. I just like I don't want to dog Uber because I I try not to dog anyone as much anymore. But like I've I've never I've always looked at Uber and thought like this is the antithesis to being obsessed with the customer. Like, I always looked at Uber and was like, they will innovate at the expense of the customer, and they'll try things at the expense of the customer. And there are just like countless stories I heard of customers getting kind of screwed over because like they were trying their newest thing where it was automated pricing, and they end up winning 50 million dollars of PNG's freight, only to have to call them as soon as the bid's over and tell them that they can't do any of it, which actually happened. Not that I should probably be naming that customer affiliated with that, but it whatever is true. So it is what it is. Um, but that's a company led by geniuses, you know. Um and and I think that like maybe it's the difference is like a lot of the geniuses are are the people that are like so smart in that regard are are capable of innovating in ways that maybe you and I can't, because I'm in the same second camp with you. Um and they're maybe thinking that in the long run, in the bigger picture, they will support the customer better, but sometimes the the customer has to deal with the expense of their innovation uh and the iterations and failures along the way. Um versus you and I, the simpletons, I'll call ourselves, uh, who are just like, we want to win and we want to do well, and we're willing to work as hard as we have to to do well. And the only way we know that will work is if we obsess over the customer and make sure that we do everything in our power to make them happier than the guy next to us is making them, or our competitor next to us is making them. And that's like how I think about my approach has always been like, I still to this day remember like sitting down with my partner Vogrich when we were starting the company and literally writing on a piece of paper like, what are all the things people don't like about brokers? And let's do the opposite, you know? Um, and it's so simple, but it is like by nature, it's like it's focusing on how do you create the best possible experience for the customer. And it is cool that like there are a lot of examples of us, of you, of me. Um, whether it's like a 30 or 40 person company that's focused on you know what you're doing, or a 500-person company, or 200, or they're doing flap ed or they're doing reefer or they're doing LTL. Like granted, I don't know very many successful LTL stories where they were obsessed with the customer because that's not typically how it goes in LTL. So maybe saying LTL was not the best example, but my point is just that there's a lot of opportunity to be successful in our industry if you put the customer first. I guess that's my point.

SPEAKER_03 50:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

Um and I don't know where we were before you took me there. Sorry. It's no, it's a good, it's it's it's a sign of a good conversation when um I think when I when I stop thinking about questions to ask because I'm so focused on thinking about what you just asked me or what you're talking about.

SPEAKER_02 50:21

Um Well, I like what you said about you wrote down, you know, like how do brokers upset people or what do brokers do wrong? And like focus on that. Our mission at ABLE is to reinvent the freight broker's reputation.

Reinventing Broker Reputation Online

SPEAKER_02 50:33

And that just fits right along with it. But I think, you know, there's so many. You said a few earlier, and I'll I think there's a few more than a few. I think there's so many good companies doing this great work right now, like trying to reinvent the freight broker's reputation. And shippers have taken notice, right? Like freight waves or Craig had um numbers out. It's been like six months, but it was something like 25 or 30 years ago, freight brokers managed 6% of domestic truckload, and now it's like up over 30. So I mean, that tells you right there, uh, you know, 500 like the shippers know um enough brokers have done the right thing, you know, honored their quotes, you know, not given loads back, showed up, you know, operationally obsessed with the customer, that they now give our industry 500% more freight than they did back, you know, before we got going. So um it's happening.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Yeah, it is. And uh, you know, it's interesting because at what point is the broker's reputation reinvented?

SPEAKER_02 51:48

I'm I'm sensitive to this right now in the last couple of weeks or months. And there's some content really frustrating me sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 52:05

Um yeah, let's get out of it. Sounds juicy.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Some content across the socials, and it sucks too, because like I love all the people behind the stuff. You know, I just getting frustrated with some of the rhetoric, and I think it works against those of us on this mission to be a better freight broker and to reinvent the freight broker's reputation and that.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

All right, so give me a little more context. I don't I don't even know who said it, but like I can't, it's hard for me to respond without knowing what like what is some of the rhetoric that's being said that's kind of frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 52:47

Well, okay, so an example would be some memes that I think can paint the brokerage industry in a negative light.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

And I just I see too many good people doing too much good work and just those numbers, how much more moves through brokers now than did 25 years ago. Like we've proven our value in the marketplace. Like, and that doesn't happen by accident, and it doesn't happen without, like I said, a lot of really good people doing really good work. And so, you know, I mean, some of the memes, I don't know, strong solo surgy memes, you know, it's like I think it undermines a lot of the good work a lot of us are doing. Like, do we know what it means? Do we know what a strong solo is? Sure. At the end of the day, we're all working towards these safety initiatives, right? And and you have the hours at dispatcher, you don't. And brokers aren't crossing that line. Like, I'm not gonna say nobody is, but I'm telling you, I know a lot of really good people doing a lot of really good work. And so it's just some of that is just undermining it. It it's funny. A lot of it's funny. I mean, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

Yeah, they're cheap laughs, it's easy. Um here's my here's my thought. I had this conference, I golfed this morning um with a guy I used to work with at my old, old, old company, Coyote uh sales guy who now is working for uh another company. And we were just talking about because I'm not in the market today, but I was just asking him what it's like. He actually works for an asset-based company now, so he sells he's he's got trucks, uh, which always just sounded like such an easier sell than what we were doing. Um, which it is harder operation, though. For sure, for sure. Um but in any case, like he was talking about this company. He's he, you know, it was a company that I think he had done, he had like a six million dollar award last year, and this year they only gave him like 750,000. But within two months, that number is now pacing to be over like 10 million. And the reason is every week they come out with two new mini-bids where several of the top brokers just keep giving back freight. So and there's a saying that I won't use because it's definitely inappropriate. Um but the concept is that like how do I give the concept? Uh essentially it's like to you and I who uh haven't gotten in with I don't know, make up a company, Coca-Cola yet, um we come in there and we're gonna work our butt off because like that's such a great new opportunity. But for the guy who's been with Coca-Cola for 10 years, he's not necessarily as motivated to keep taking care of Coca-Cola the way that he should. And he's kind of over it and used to it, and and he takes advantage of that fact, and he says, Oh, you know, these lanes, I'm not making money on them. You figure it out. Like, I've been with you for 10 years, so like I don't have to worry about you breaking up with me, kind of deal. And like, that's just uh it's like the kind of circle of life in in the wrong way, in that like you know, people want novelty and um and and you don't always see the same behavior day one that you see year 10. Um and I think you and I think about this differently, and I think there are a lot of others who think about it differently where we want year 10 to actually be better than year one, like we want to continue to improve, but there are others who's like at the end of the day, like what they're most concerned about is just the paycheck, and if if you know Coca-Cola year one was super important to your paycheck, and now year 10 it's actually in hurting your paycheck in certain ways, then you know your behavior might change. And so I guess like uh to me, it's like if we you and I can't reinvent the broker reputation if there aren't always people tarnishing it. And while I'd love for the entire industry to be great, you and I would have a hard time growing our business if the entire industry was great, yeah. So, like to some extent, you need some of the bad to make the good look better.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

Um But on social, can the shippers distinguish between the two? Are there some you know, platforms and voices that shippers think are speaking for the industry?

SPEAKER_01 57:53

I mean, I I mean that's a good question. I I don't know. I think so. I think I think we gotta give them enough credit to be able to do that. I hope they're also capable of seeing that 80% of the posts on LinkedIn are freaking nonsense and garbage. Is that a iced venti black tea?

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Yes, I'm double fisting.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

That's my exact order.

SPEAKER_02 58:14

Really?

SPEAKER_01 58:15

Yes, recent three-month-ago change. Sorry if you're not watching the video version, which 90% of the audience only listens, not watches, but uh Liz just picked up uh what looked like my exact Starbucks order and I was like iced venti black tea. Yeah, so what I was gonna say was like I I do think yes, there's I I I think that I don't know. I I think that's I think that media and social media are are not the best indicators of certainly on an individual basis, what a broker is and and how a broker operates. Um and I do believe that you know it's hard enough to get in with shippers and get new customers. The vetting is not easy, uh, and therefore, like, you know, they are capable of kind of seeing the force through the trees or or doing enough due diligence to see why uh you at at uh Able Transport are are thinking and operating differently than the memes of solo surge uh you know from whoever.

SPEAKER_02 59:26

Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully.

Supreme Court Liability And Carrier Vetting

SPEAKER_01 59:29

I am curious something to kind of change the topic, uh, but somewhat stay on topic, you know, in in in pursuing new business, you know, this recent uh Supreme Court ruling is one that I'm really curious about. Um where now uh it's it's been made clear that brokers can be held liable for negligent hiring of carriers. And so like the challenge is the FMCSA does not do a good job of telling you as a broker which carriers are safe and not safe. If I'm a shipper, I'm a little concerned about working with brokers and certainly working with brokers that aren't like flush with cash and have a bunch of have the ability to to navigate a kind of negligent hiring claim. So, as a smaller company, how do you think about navigating this ruling and this change and shippers who might say, like, we want to see your balance sheet, or we want like how do we make sure that you can handle a negligent hiring claim? Like, how do you think about that?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:48

Yeah. No, I think everybody's trying to figure it out right now. I mean, one thing I would say is nothing really changed. Like in a lot of jurisdictions, this we've been held out. That's we we were just we were looking for to defend ourselves in the future. And so it really is the landscape we've been working in. I don't think shippers realize that though. I think they think something has really changed dramatically. So we're working through that with them right now, and it's it's a fine line. Um, I was just having a conversation with Abel's president. Um, we have a shipper who has a new contract in light of the ruling, and it is terrible.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:36

And we indemnity, indemnity, indemnity. How many times do you say indemnity, indemnified?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:41

Indemnify the whole world, you know? Like it's just, I mean, it's and and there's even some things in it that practically cannot be done. So, like I think one of them was um, you know, like us pulling drivers, DMV records before pickups and things like that. There's things we can't do, and there's privacy laws that trucking companies have to adhere to. And so um I think that the more in touch a shipper actually is, or a shipper's legal department, I should say, is the easier those things are going to be to work through. I think that you see it right now. There's a lot of experts right now. Like everybody knows everything. And I think that the shippers that know everything and just send out these blankets sort of to cover everything with everybody. It's it's tough because you know they've got some companies small enough that are just chasing the margin and not worried about exposure that have already signed it and sent it back. And so then it makes it difficult when you go in, like, hey, we've got some problems here, we've got to work through. Um, and so you just hope that there's it's like when that happens, you hope that the shipper, that your competition within that shipper, that you have enough good, reputable, smart companies working in there that they start to see a trend in some of the conversations. Because that's where I really run into trouble, is when you're trying to work through some of that stuff with a shipper and you're the only one kind of trying to have that conversation. And it's like, even say take a market change. Do you want to be the first to have that conversation with them? The third or the last? It depends on the customer, depends on the relationship, depends on if you're an incumbent or if it's new business. Like, I think it's the same working through some of this liability discussion. It's like that, so that's where we're at. Like some of our customers, we want to be the first to have the conversation and start working through it. Others, it's like wait and hear from them. Um, but it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:51

So you just gave me this idea that I think would be an interesting vetting practice for for a shipper to basically come out with an unsignable contract. Like with the most in the world. I have one I can show you. But like push beyond like what do you even think is unsignable to to the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:15

Put something real funny in there to see if they even read it.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:17

Well, see, that's kind of what I'm getting at. Is it's not not so much like you know, they write the word poop in there and see if everyone notices, but more just like making you sign things that are just so unacceptable to sign, and then whoever signs it, you immediately kick them out of the network. Because you're just it's it's just a test. It's a test to see like who actually is trying to run a good business, who actually understands what their capabilities are, where they need to be protected, and comes back to me and says, Hey, we can't sign this, we need to adjust this. Then you say, Okay, yeah, we can talk. But for the 10 to 20 companies who just want the freight and and do the kind of let's hope, let's pray we don't have an accident, and and if we do, we'll just go under and start over the next day. Those are the people who are signing this crazy contract. You fire them the day they sign it.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:08

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:09

Put them on a do not use list.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:12

I love that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

I don't know. I just think that's it. That would be an interesting path to take. But um, I appreciate kind of the way you think about it. I mean, I do think it it has to be kind of a give and take. And I I'm just I'm curious if, like, have you seen when does your insurance renew? Have you gone through insurance questions? November. November. November.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:36

But you know what? I mean, uh, knock on wood while I say this. I'm not that worried about it because as I said, like we were already on the hook. We've been on the hook in most jurisdictions. Like, insurance companies know that. And they're not like when we go renew our insurance, they're looking at the commodities we haul to try to understand risk from that standpoint. But if you're hauling in all 48 states, like they're not at least, I mean, in my experience, they're not looking at the low level. I mean, at where your concentration is regionally for, I mean, that's really where the exposure would be for these accidents because they're harder to fight in some jurisdictions than in others. Like so what I'm saying is I believe the insurance companies have this has been a risk. They know that they've been knowing that I don't think it changes much. I think we've been paying this price all along.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:40

Yeah, see so what it's hard for me to say because I'm out of the game right now for another like under four months almost July, August, September, October, four months and nine days or whatever. But you know, if you if you kind of go on if you look at media social media or media, there's a lot of sensationalism out there. And it, you know, the first thing that came out was insurance rates are going up three to five hundred percent. And I'm just like I is that is that true? I I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:10

I I don't think so. I did a post last week about there's just a lot of people stirring a lot of pots right now. I'm not finding it helpful but I would put that comment in that bucket right now. I mean now we've seen great insurance increases but like the fraud the cargo theft like to me that's what's contributing there more than the Montgomery ruling.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:37

Yeah that makes sense. I mean I'm curious too if like if there would be data to support the fact that flatbed drivers are safer than drive in drivers.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:51

Yeah I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:54

I'm gonna put that out into the universe and hope that one of the data nerds who listens to this hopefully there are data nerds that listen to this maybe not uh but if they are maybe they'll do a little research for us and get back to us and let us know if there's any actual uh data that supports that concept it kind of makes sense you know they they certainly well I I don't know human nature is what it is you know the same person who is falling asleep at the wheel because they're driving a dry van could be doing the same situation for a flatbed but they could I gotta think there's probably more workers comp claims because of like it's just a more physical job like you're getting up on the freight to tarp it.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:34

You know you've got you got to climb up I mean you're 12 feet off the ground by the time you're tarping that load.

AI, Automation, And Data Centers

SPEAKER_02 1:08:41

Um so yeah that'd be interesting I definitely don't think on the workers comp side um but maybe on the auto and the general side yeah well let me let me turn the the page a bit I I'm curious you know you started this business on your own and as far as I know you're the kind of primary owner um have you looked at kind of bringing in outside capital at any point or kind of strategic financial partners I have not just because like I've I've bootstrapped and I've grown organically as the customers' needs presented themselves like this is gonna sound silly especially if any tech people are listening and stuff but like what would I do with the money? I mean I just I've always preferred to retain all of the ownership and just grow organically at the pace that we can um so that's where I'm at right now I do think that had I thought bigger in the beginning um because I never even when I set out in the beginning it wasn't really to build a business it was to work at home and be at home while my kids were little and then that like it's 24 seven freight's a 24 seven job and it's like well okay for that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:05

Yeah exactly so then that's especially with the theory that you are the best at doing every one of the roles uh because that means you are working 24-7.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:14

Yeah so that did not last um very long but I do think had I been thinking about that stuff from the beginning in that that maybe I would have gone a different route um because I do really believe in Abel's product like I think we we take a superior product to the marketplace and we never focused on business development like I I that sounds crazy. We're literally gonna launch a sales team here in a couple months. And so it it's really hard to believe and we do have a salesperson now and we've had a few prior so it's not that we haven't done anything but it really we were very operationally focused. And so sometimes I do think like had I taken some capital and really tried to take it to the moon and really took a sales focus over an ops focus um we'd be much much larger today.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:05

And that's fun to think about but fundamentally like the control freak needs that ops focus you know so what is kind of when you think about the next call it three years like what do you want to see like what would what would make you really happy three years from now looking back on able and and where it is and what you've done with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:29

Yeah well let's see when I hired the president two years ago I said I had a five year plan to double the company we've about done that I mean probably by next year we'll be there um say two and a half years into the five so I would just move that goalpost let's do it again um but really I I want to grow my number of customers just back to really believing I have a superior product. Like I mean it I mean I I we know the construction job site better than all of our competitors and there's just so much logistics that breaks down um to and from job sites in that like I I want to see us doing the same work but for you know twice as many shipping customers and companies are you a big proponent of AI and logistics yes um but also as a small business um we're trying to figure it out like I think everybody is you know we're definitely not doing as much as the big companies I do I do you know you mentioned Charlie I um was one of Upwell's first customers but like my back office is pretty much automated um so I think we used to have probably about a hundred hours a week into like back office accounting function things like that and it's down to probably 10 um and so to me that's like okay that worked and then we've tried some other things where it's like is it working is it not I don't know we just don't we don't know and if we don't know we definitely can't say like yes this is working this is um and so we're trying things but we're keeping an open mind and definitely like limiting our engagements while we try to work through things and figure it out. But I mean our back office is automated and I'm I'm proud of that at this point.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

So that was kind of meant to be a trick question and the reason I say that is because if if AI equals more data centers, more data centers equals more construction equals more flap it loads so I'm curious have you guys dabbled in any of the data center development in terms of the transportation side?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:59

Yeah so we've definitely I mean so you know we're working with all the construction equipment companies in the country and all of that. And so a lot of our customers support that work you know so even if you're not working with the GC for the data center so much of that is getting subbed out and trickles down. I would say yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:27

Yeah that's that's kind of more of I mean I I I asked it in a kind of loaded way where you know you I get why you answered how you did but that was what I was really alluding to um because it seems like actually like the the development of data centers is is actually going to be a big boom for the industry on the on the flatbed side like I'm someone who I've you know I've certainly heard that in the last three to six three to four months the market has started to turn in favor of brokers in favor of carriers the stock market certainly supports that with all the asset uh stocks being up um but like I just have yet to see it and I'm not an economist but I've struggled to see where the demand is coming from like it doesn't really feel like people are in a better place today than they were a few years ago. It feels like everything costs more groceries cost more people aren't making more money if anything like it feels like people are losing jobs left and right all you hear about is like this big company cut 2000 people today and in six weeks we'll hear they cut another 2000 but you don't ever hear this company's hiring 2000 people it's it's all you know they're trying to use AI to replace all these people but the one thing that you hear that's booming in demand is like building of data centers. And that's a lot of flatbeds. So um you know it seems like that's the right kind of niche to be supporting today.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:00

Yeah for sure I agree I don't I mean as far as like what's driving this market shift though I I agree I don't think there's any increase in demand. I mean I freight tonnage is not up. I mean it's just the decrease in capacity just I mean there is a lot of trucks there's a lot of CDLs revoked there's a lot of trucks not on the road that were um and so the same amount of demand is just putting this much strain on things you know and then it's just now we'll get back to now everybody will come back into the market because rates are up and it's hard though because the truck manufacturers need some years to catch up. Yeah it's really hard to say how this is going to go. But I'm I agree on the flatbed side the construction side I even with just the um the infrastructure bill and that with the government that went through last year or whenever like that that all still is going to trickle down into the flatbed like I'm I'm bullish on the niche for sure.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:03

Yeah I think I think you've chosen wisely with with your niche or maybe stumbled into it but uh it's it's it's it's a good one to be it's a good one to be excellent at today as it very much seems able is so yeah well what do you think your end game is in this uh in this freight journey is it to kind of pass this on to your kids one day is it to sell it and retire um or what do you

Endgame And Obsess Over Customers

SPEAKER_01 1:17:39

think?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:39

I know I don't know um so it's funny I've I want to ask you your experience coming into Coyote and stuff I've heard a lot of it on the show and like working in the summers when you were in college and stuff but I've got um a very smart very successful 24 year old son so he's doing the cutco the vector thing he's on his sixth year he's like a person or two removed from the CEO now. You know he has his whole region or whatever I don't know. And I had always told him coming up I didn't I didn't want any friends or family in the business because like if I want to sit down and have Thanksgiving dinner with you, you know, back to the control freak, you know, and how I used to rule this place. I didn't I just I didn't want to mix the two. I wanted to be how I had to be at work but also be who I wanted to be at home you know and um but then he went to school and started this gig and has been like 1099 his whole life and like making a ton of money and knocking it out of the park and I'm like oh man that's gonna be good at free. And now he's not interested. And I'm like I really missed that vote. And so like I've always but he had you know he had this whole thing that he would never come into the business because he didn't think he'd be able to earn respect because he said no matter how good he did he would always be my kid. And he, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 1:19:13

And that I've said those words.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:15

Even if nepotism didn't exist between he and I the rest of the company would perceive it that way and his success would never be his own. And I wanted to ask you about that because I'm I'm sure you can relate to some of that. Because now I'm like I I would love to have him in the business. I would love to know that I had somebody so strong to pass it down to but also like that ship has sailed.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:43

He's like globe trotting with Vector so yeah you know the the ship has never sailed I'll say that um you should talk to Will Jenkins too because or he should maybe because Will Jenkins got his start at uh Cutco.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:59

So he works for Will's old boss. So Will and my son have actually had lunch and got together.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:04

Okay so all right I'm I'm a step behind there. But you know the story sounds like a lot like Will's will gives a lot of credit to Cutco and and knocking on doors for for kind of developing his sales skills and so he he he figured a lot out with that. On the other side of it from the nepotism and and being the child of the CEO or or whatever um man it's an incredible motivator. It's a great chip to have on your shoulder um to feel like well let me talk about both sides of this um and maybe there's some growth happening for me that I even recognize the second side but and ego by that comment. But sorry um I think for a long time I had that thought like you know I every day I felt like I had to show up and and like book the most loads or have the highest number of loads on as a shipper sales route um and just compete like so hard because like I mean for Coyote like we were hiring every summer I came back there were another hundred or two hundred people that have been hired to the company who didn't know my work ethic didn't know this that that I had actually been able to build good relationships on both sides of the business but just saw the last name and and thought like you know this is the CEO's kid um and that ate at me like it it really ate at me um and you know similarly like I don't know that my parents really wanted me to be in the business. Marianne I remember definitely didn't want family in the business and for good reason like you know I think my dad once once my dad saw some of the numbers like I think he routinely would check the numbers just to see that I was you know as the 19 year old that I was outbooking all the 24 year olds and that made them proud but like I haven't exactly had like this linear journey of success in my life uh and I mean outside of work. Like I've done a lot of dumb stuff and like gotten in trouble a bunch and I just I get my own way a lot. And so that becomes a lot harder in your early 20s when you're kind of screwing up and you're in the business and then your parents got to be like dude you're making us look bad or you're you know whatever. So like I get why you wouldn't want family in the business for that regard. But at some point like I think you have to realize that like you shouldn't do things for other people like or you shouldn't do things for to like seek other people's external approval. And that's something I struggled with and still struggle with to this day. And I think I will you know I think I think you know I'm at I'm at the point where I'm developing awareness of it and starting to be able to change some behavior but I'm 36 years old and you know I kind of wired it into myself. I think it starts with like trying to seek your your father's approval you know and I think that's something all my siblings deal with where like we have this super successful super smart genius guy who we're trying to live up to uh and so like getting that approval is not easy and and so you're seeking it and and you seek it in other places like you know it's whether it's LinkedIn or you know starting a company like what are the motivations we have um and and so like I think as I spend more time thinking about it and you know to some extent developing awareness and then trying to grow through it it's like eventually it's like man like you only get one life and if you get a chance to work with someone you love uh who you care about and who you want to work with you should do it because like if it feels good do it um it's like if you can put your kid in the business because you trust he's gonna be great and you can pay him well so that like you can set him up to to to like come in and actually create more value than what you're paying him like that's you have to do that sometimes like I there are plenty of people who I hired who came from a different industry and I paid them more than someone might have thought I should but because they were already successful somewhere else and like I for me to get them in the business I had to pay them well. But it pays off when you hire the right people. When you hire good people and you actually let them do what they're good at or what they're capable of getting really good at uh it tends to work out right and so like I don't know I wouldn't say the ship has sailed on him joining your company I think um I think at some point he'll realize like man I could spend five years working with mom like learning from her and like helping her and earning the chance to run the business like I wouldn't tell him this is yours to take one day I would just say like I believe in you let's see what happens if you come in here and give this everything you have the same way you've given it at Vector and you will prove like if you if he is who you think he is he'll earn every bit of respect that he deserves yeah and um you know I wouldn't be surprised if it's enough to one day be running the company.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:18

Yeah I like that I'm gonna make him listen to this he's like mom I'll listen to the last five minutes I'm not listening to but no I mean but that chip though like you can't it's like that you mentioned that the chip on your shoulder that you had in the beginning and he's got the chip now. But like that's such a necessary thing to fly the nest like you've got to think you know everything. You've got to think you're the bee's knees like you've you know what I mean to like be confident and like go and do your thing and so um yeah I guess it's you probably change as that starts to chip away you probably minds open up and and all of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:05

But like it's always good to have a chip on your shoulder I think like it's always good to have a motivator and it can change over time but like you want something that gets you up in the morning something that makes you want to show up and do your job. And the thing is like today the chip might be I have to kill it at Vector to prove that I didn't need my mom's help.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:28

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:28

Tomorrow the chip could be I have to show up at Able and be the best I can be to prove that it wasn't mom's help that got me where I am yeah as long as there's a chip as long as there's something that makes him wakes him up and makes him want to be the best most capable version of himself then he'll be great. The problem for people I think is when they don't have a chip when they just wake up and it's like okay I got this job. And you can make your own chip like the no nobody has to give you the chip like you get to wake up every day and decide what what it is you're trying to pursue in life and what it is that you know I don't think everyone should be motivated by negatives the way I am but like I am very massively motivated by detractors and people who don't believe in me or people who rub me the wrong way or currently people who have I think wronged me in past business life. Like I things like that like I don't think everyone needs to have that kind of negative motivator but it works for me. So like I use it and it it it you know it fires me up like when I start to think about certain things it just gets me ready to run through a wall myself. And everybody's their own kind of everybody's got their own path but I think it's important to have something that motivates us to get up and and and kill it. And for you it might be your kid it might be your family it might be proving that like you know you can do it. You you know you can be an 18 year old pregnant you know senior in high school and still figure out a way to conquer the world on your own yep good stuff. Yeah well we're running up on time uh we went longer than I I told you I we I was trying to get us done by 145 and it's almost two so I don't want you to be late for your meeting. Let me ask you one last question. What advice would you give to anyone who's thinking about kind of taking a chance in this industry whether it's to come for the first time as a carrier rep or customer rep or start their own business like what single piece of advice do you think is most important for being successful in in freight obsess over the customer I mean learn everything you can about the customer's challenges and then just obsess over them because if you if you listen if you keep your ears and eyes open like they will point you to margin success rate you know so put them first always perfect well thank you so much for coming on the show this was an awesome episode I'm glad we got you on and um to our listeners we'll see you next week thanks Andrew this was fun