PETER, dance with Tim Spooner

Today we dance with Tim Spooner. To get in touch and follow Tim go to https://timspooner.com/ and https://www.instagram.com/tspooner0.

Tim will be performing: 

• Matter Era
  • Battersea Arts Centre 7, 8, 9 May https://bac.org.uk/whats-on/matter-era/
  • Norfolk and Norwich Festival 12,13,14 May https://nnfestival.org.uk/whats-on/matter-era/
  • Westflügel Leipzig 22 & 23 May https://www.westfluegel.de/veranstaltung/matter-era/
• The Microscope Sessions dates (after 30th March):
  • 6 April, 4 May, 1 June (1st Monday of each month, times TBC) https://themicroscopesessions.net/ 

References:

1. Simon Vincenzi - https://www.simonvincenzi.com/
2. Terrapin - https://terrapin.org.au/
3. Sam Routledge - https://www.instagram.com/sirwam/
4. THE GRID OF LIFE 2010 - https://www.timspooner.com/thegridoflife
5. 24 GROTESQUE MANIPULATIONS - https://www.timspooner.com/24grotesquemanipulations
6. Lea Anderson - http://www.leaanderson.com/
7. PETER, dance with Lea Anderson - https://stillpeter.com/peter-dance-with-podcast/#LA
8. The Rest Is Science, Are Magnets The Most Familiar Mystery On Earth? - https://youtu.be/yXg_-2fpg-s?si=pUIv8VoPSzm0-RZ5
9. On the calculations of volume by Solvej Balle - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Calculation_of_Volume
10. Panpsychism - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panpsychism
11. O by Peter Mills - https://stillpeter.com/o/
12. Matter Era by Tim Spooner and Terrapin
13. Battersea Arts Centre 7, 8, 9 May https://bac.org.uk/whats-on/matter-era/
14. Norfolk and Norwich Festival 12,13,14 May https://nnfestival.org.uk/whats-on/matter-era/
15. Westflügel Leipzig 22 & 23 May https://www.westfluegel.de/veranstaltung/matter-era/
16. The Microscope Sessions - https://sites.google.com/view/themicroscopesessions/home
17. Rhiannon Armstrong - https://www.rhiannonarmstrong.net/
18. https://www.youtube.com/@TheMicroscopeSessions

Transcript

PETER: Good morning everyone. Um today we are here with Tim Spooner. Uh Tim Spooner has been I feel like a lifelong companion artistically. However, it's been interspersed through time and space. Uh so to be able to like come back and and uh be with you again is so wonderful. Uh we met we I mean it's it will come up I'm sure but we met with uh performing for Simon Vincenzi back in 2009 no 2010  somewhere around there. And um Tim, you're a you're an everything. You're an artist uh that does performance, puppetry, theater, painting, sculpture, everything. Um animation perhaps even. Uh yeah. Um is that is that fair 

Tim Spooner: Uh yeah, I suppose so. It's maybe not animation actually. I'm not sure - 

PETER: No, I was thinking that as I said it. I was like, "Oh, actually that's great." Yeah. Um, but if people if people don't know you, because I I feel like I know 

Tim Spooner: animation. - 

PETER: you fairly well. What how do you describe yourself today? You were just saying you're in Tasmania, so and you have an online practice just like we are today in a

Tim Spooner: Yeah, I'm in I'm in So that those are two - 

PETER: way. 

Tim Spooner: different projects, but I'm in Tasmania at the moment working with Terrapin, which is a um puppetry company here on this project that we've been trying to make happen for kind of I don't know since sort of  or something like that. And we've we've worked on it, you know, over the years, me and Sam, who's the who's the director of the company. Um, in little in little kind of two week blocks over the last few years. And I'm here now and we're kind of finishing it, which feels really good. Uh, so I'm here for about a month doing that. Um, so yeah, that's that's that's a project that um it's really like the meeting of Sam's work as a as a kind of person with a puppetry background and then my work, which is um I feel like in lots of contexts has found its way into puppetry because it's um without without that being my sort of training or anything, it's um but It's um I've I've sort of presented work in that in in those sort of contexts quite a lot because um most of what I do is concerned with materials or objects or how materials behave or want to behave or um there's a certain kind of allowing of materials or objects to kind of do their own thing and - 

PETER: Mhm.

Tim Spooner: um and and a kind of bit of a balance of if I if I sort of push them in one direction and let them uh let them kind of respond um what happens. So, so - 

PETER: Mhm. Yeah.

Tim Spooner: kind of um yeah, bit bit of a kind of - um control versus not control relationship going on I suppose between my input and the and the um materials or the objects or the things that I'm that I'm exploring and then that so that I suppose that's sort of the common thing across all the different types of work that I make that so whether it's a performance or painting. It's always a kind of there's always that kind of um relationship between me sort of pushing a bit but also trying to listen or allow the whatever the thing is to go where it wants - 

PETER: Yeah, I was thinking like because I think designer was also something that you you have 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: done, right? Like I was with Lee Anderson and she was speaking about  you in that role and and I think when I when I  was thinking through all those like how we can categorize or give give roles or specific titles to you um  it's it's so true like they don't perfectly align um because in so much in a really big way you're  a performer you know as well and yet you know designer and performer are not necessarily the same thing often. And uh I love the way you describe it now of listening to the materials and allowing causing  them to sort of push you into a sort of direction. You're really in in if like I think the thing I really wanted to say was  that you're an artist in in a sort of the broadest sense. Uh you have such a  great sensibility to listen and uh sort of hone in on the  sort of particularity of of that of the material you're working with and allow it to sort of  um yeah for form a yeah whatever in whatever way it does in a sort of way. yeah. But it's so interesting you already bring up that thing of control and being controlled. That's  really And I suppose puppetry actually as a as a as a  form is is in direct relationship to that. I have to think of ventriloquism, you know, the the sort of  um the speaking to oneself and like having oneself speak back at you and the sort of  the the ability to remove consequence as well like by ventriloquizing objects and  giving them the power to sort of um to comment on oneself and the situation  in a way which changes the authority somehow which is really interesting. Not that you  you've No, that I've seen you do venturiloquism

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. - Yeah. I think ventriloquism is a bit um yeah maybe a bit bit too direct for me but I think there is something in I'm just thinking when you say that about some experiments we've been doing on this project at the moment which is like one of my main things I come back to over and over again is magnets and um this this work at the moment is really - like magnet heavy it's kind in a It's like about magnets fundamentally and - 

PETER: Right. 

Tim Spooner: um so the the the work is um well I' I've I've previously made made performances which are very kind of miniature and there's lots of objects and I'm in control of them through a surface by moving magnets around and those things are magnetic. Um, - 

PETER: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim Spooner: and then this this work is a kind of big big version of that where there's two performers under a big stage and they've got really strong magnets and there's big objects on the stage that are magnetic. Um but in both in both versions of that there's so many experiments you can - 

PETER: Wow. 

Tim Spooner: do that are um to do with this with this thing of allowing or controlling  because there's always this um surface in between and there's always the kind of particularity of the object and there's always the kind  of there's the sort of control you can have with the magnet but there's also the actual desire of a magnet which is kind really quite mysterious and um unpredictable. So, it'll it's not as simple as just sort  of a magnet on one side of the surface and a magnet on the other and you can just slide one and the other will slide. There's a lot of um  there's a lot of different relationships going on between the magnetic fields and the distances and then the textures of everything that they're touching and and the way you per the way you perform it as a the way you sort of attempt to control it as a as a as a  performer. - 

PETER: Yeah, I imagine speed is one of those conditions. You can't move too fast, otherwise the force, the 

PETER: speed, the acceleration speed will like detach you from the

Tim Spooner: um you leave it behind - or you sort of shoot it where you're Yeah. But like really - 

PETER: magnet. Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: in infinite different things can happen and it's - 

PETER: Yes.

Tim Spooner: really it's been really nice these these weeks really like  focusing and spending a lot a lot of time doing those doing  those explorations. But but yeah, what what results is  this state of objects doing their  thing where we and  that behavior has kind of peeled off from intention, this sort of  human intention that's going on underneath. And that's what made me think - 

PETER: Right. 

Tim Spooner: of ventriloquism in a way because there's something kind of they're not one and the same thing. the the intention of the person and then the s the result of the the um the - 

PETER: Yeah. Right. Exactly. 

Tim Spooner: puppet. Uh - Yeah

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. And um so like  I I'm inviting you here so that we can do something together and you're in Tasmania and I'm here in Cambridge so we're  online. Um and we've done this before but we had

Tim Spooner: yeah. Yeah. - 

PETER: technical difficulties so we we're doing it again. I assume we're doing  the same thing. Maybe you can tell me because actually that's what I wanted to say was that um what I'd like for for us for me and for the listeners who get to sort of follow us on this is to sort of get a little  bit of an understanding how you how you practice maybe or what what you're busy with in order to do and um listen to these objects and be close to these things just so we can get a taste. Obviously, it's a a 

Tim Spooner: Um - 

PETER: lifetime. How old are you now, Tim? You know,

Tim Spooner: . - 41

PETER: many. . Yeah. 41. So, so it's um  there's there's a lot we won't cover, but um

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Um - 

PETER: yeah. So, so yeah. What are 

Tim Spooner: yeah, we yeah, I think we're going to do the same thing that - 

PETER: we going to do? Do you want to try

Tim Spooner: we that we did do before. Um, it'd be nice to  sort of double down on that, I think. - 

PETER: and Yes.

Tim Spooner:  Um, - 

PETER: And also because you were doing you you were and I assume you are 

Tim Spooner: and yeah, I am. It's - 

PETER: still doing it quite often. Is that actually quite it it will be quite nice this time because while  I've been working on this project here, I haven't done that. And in a way, this thing that we're going to that I'm sort of going to invite you to do or us to do  together is something that's a bit it feels really like the opposite end of the spectrum from working on -  right? 

Tim Spooner: the thing I'm working on at the moment because it's really at the moment anyway within how it sort of sits within all my work. It's really  like the thing I'm doing that no one's asking me to do. sort of the the sort of long-term background  to projects that come and go and projects that have more of a sort of end point in sight or a commission  or whatever. Um it's the so it's yeah it's a it's a sort of painting thing that or sort of  painting way of painting that um I've been sort of doing  for maybe the past couple of years. Um and uh so yeah so doing paintings and  drawings has always sort of been part of what I do and it's always been a it's always in a way been a sort of background  activity in that um I can do it when I don't have anything else going on or I can do it  when I've got when I can't think of what else to do or you know it's - 

PETER: Yeah. Yes.

Tim Spooner: got that sort of freedom to it. Um but this  particular way is is kind of really sustaining has sort of sustained for  quite a long time now and feels still sort of relevant or interesting to keep doing and to keep um  following and to see what what um pictures come out of it. Um, and the  pictures keep being interesting to me. Uh, but they haven't ever been sort of shown or whatever present. - 

PETER: Yeah.  Yeah. Even though that I mean now I've done

PETER: it once and I I even did it a few more times here. I can show you 

Tim Spooner: oh wow. - 

PETER: my that was the first time, right? And then I did my

Tim Spooner: Recognize. - 

PETER: own I don't know which way up they are. I think 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: that um they do echo um echo some of the aesthetics  perhaps or like um imagery or qualities that were coming out of previous work like they like there  there there are creatures in there I started to really notice and figures that sort  of go back right till um when I was first encountering your work, you  know, in 2009 or whatever that was with like grid life (The Grid of Life, 2010)

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Oh, yeah. - 

PETER: or grotesque manipulations (24 GROTESQUE MANIPULATIONS, 2011-2014)

Tim Spooner: Yeah, that's funny. It's also funny to see the ones you've done. It's quite -: uncanny cuz it to see you holding them up  pictures that I don't recognize, but I - 

PETER: Yeah. Right. Right. right. Yeah. Well, it's the material, isn't it?  It It has its own

Tim Spooner: do. Yeah. And just the way of a way of doing it. - Yeah, I hope so. It's it's it feels to me like um all  all my work on like doing in terms of like making pictures is um they're all trying  to Yeah. similar to the way I described all my work. It's like trying to sort - of hold this line between depicting something and allowing something to sort of depict itself or allow that material to sort  of go where it wants to go and not and not quite know where the line or the form is going to  sit. Um, so this is this is just another way of doing it really that feels quite  fun and - good. - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. But do you want to like describe in more of an instructional way like um just to remind me 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: and maybe also give people who are listening a little bit more um understanding like what yeah how we begin because there's two parts

Tim Spooner: Yes. Yes. Two parts. So, it's really simple - and it's just really it  about starting with so we've got a bit of piece of paper and a watercolor and I've just been usually working - 

PETER: right. 

Tim Spooner: in one color for the whole thing which is usually black although I think it might be a different color today because I don't - 

PETER: Yes. 

Tim Spooner: have very much black with me. Um, but it's it's really starting  with the background and then doing the foreground. Um, and  what I mean by that is, um, working inwards at first. Um,  and you can have a kind of form or shape in mind that you're trying to depict or you can just  not really know and just sort of stop when you feel like you want to. But you're  you're um painting just the negative space to define a form which is the color of the paper. and then waiting for that to dry. I usually do sort of people and animals  really, but um it can sort of be it can sort of be something more more amorphous than that. Um - and then wait for it to dry and then - um and then fill in  the positive shape. But work if you're working towards that same edge that you  defined in the first section and you're trying to meet it but trying to  leave the tiniest edge that you can really. Um, so what you're left with - 

PETER: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: is what you're left with at the end is um the the only paper the only sort of raw  paper is this line that's as thin as you can make it which defines the the um the  shape that you've made. I think that's sort of all there is to it - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly. Yeah. And it is 

Tim Spooner: really. - 

PETER: this sort of like border, isn't it, that sort of gets created through those two encounters. And last time you spoke about a sculpture and as if the whole the whole of the sculpture is defined by the what is around it. So we start there  by painting what it isn't so to

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: speak and then after its stride then we come back and 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. - 

PETER: we paint what it is inside the

Tim Spooner: It's like painting the air if if if you were actually  depicting if you were looking at something and depicting it, which we're not. You're - 

PETER: um 

Tim Spooner: you're defining the air around the thing before you define - 

PETER: Yeah. Yes. 

Tim Spooner: the thing. - 

PETER: Yes.

Tim Spooner: Um, - 

PETER: Yeah. So, let's let's start. And I um I  said uh before we started that we will continue talking maybe

Tim Spooner: yeah. Yeah. - 

PETER: as we're paying 

Tim Spooner: Yeah, that would be nice because last time we paused the recording - 

PETER: Yes

Tim Spooner: and we said the things while we were while it was - 

PETER: Yeah.  Yes. I wanted to try with

Tim Spooner: paused. Okay. Yeah. Well, maybe I will -  I never use brown. - 

PETER: brown. So then  then. Um I I was with Lea Anderson. I was saying 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Doing this among other - 

PETER: um No. Well, oh yes,

Tim Spooner: things. No. Doing this - 

PETER: sorry. Yes. No, I thought painting. 

Tim Spooner: No doing the podcast. - 

PETER: Yeah. Doing  the podcast. Yeah. Um and she she brought up and she brought it up  very sort of coyly. So let's not I might be also saying it wrong. She was speaking about how she's often felt that um sometimes it's not better maybe but  um it can be more interesting to go from the from the surface of something outward  uh inward rather than go looking for the in of something and drawing it out. we were copying 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: Laurel and Hardy and I think it had to do with that sort of like  um that perhaps yeah there's

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: a there is a  uh there's something to be gained through coming from that direction rather than going from  its the the essentiality of the internal

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. - 

PETER: outward. So I had to think of this of course when 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me in terms of her work and then - 

PETER: starting

Tim Spooner: also has definitely has a relationship with with  this. Yeah. - 

PETER: I wanted to ask so since I've been doing this I've been  really because we're working with watercolors. Maybe we didn't say that

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Watercolor - 

PETER: this time. Um  yeah and so the material is so much water actually in a way right 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Well, it is and then it's not again when it - dries. But the water - 

PETER: like um Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But um in its  movement, right, as we sort of follow it and was it we were also  talking about how it bends the

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Um, my paper isn't  bending cuz I've got some very thick watercolor paper with me. And - 

PETER: paper. Oh, nice. 

Tim Spooner: then the other thing that's happening is that and I' I've encountered this before with other - colors. You said the watercolors mainly water, but also it's whatever the pigment is.  And um - 

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: and I realize as I do these things  that the pigments are all really really - 

PETER: Yes.

Tim Spooner: different things in origin and it means that so for  example I'm really used to working with this paper um with like certain colors that I use a lot but  I'm using brown because you said you were using brown and um it's moving through the paper in a completely different  way. It's like it's sort of bleeding into the paper slightly in a way that means I can't - 

PETER: Right. Mhm. Mhm. 

Tim Spooner: really I can't really define - 

PETER: move in the same

Tim Spooner: a line that's clear. Sometimes it'll just go - 

PETER: way. Oh, it 

Tim Spooner: absolutely yeah go sort of - 

PETER: bleeds.

Tim Spooner: haywire which is quite um it's quite interesting and that and you know then that becomes interesting

Tim Spooner: in terms of how to do part two because you're then having - 

PETER: Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: to match that real miniature ay but be in control of it if - 

PETER: Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: you can. So, I'll see what happens. But um yeah, to realize that you know you're sort  of presented with or or you buy watercolors as a sort of - 

PETER: Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: thing as a sort of um disconnected from - 

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: material reality thing in a way because they're just like his brown and here’s blue and his you know they're these sort of quite pure we sort of think of them like sounds or something - 

PETER: Yeah, true. 

Tim Spooner: be the um the colors like sound, but the reality is they're all made of actual things that  are all completely different from each other. Um and therefore they they all do different - things to you- 

PETER: Yeah. And I wonder if that you know that water tension and the different particles I guess different um

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: elementary substance of  the paint and the pigment if that actually is similar to magnetism if it has I don't I don't know.  I don't know if I know that particles of course at some level right they have a magnetic um pull and so I went it's just because you brought up magnetism in the work you're doing at the moment I had to think of these like physical properties perhaps that's what sort of

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Well, I think there's like Yeah. I I don't know - exactly, but I think there's like there's things going on  that that are beyond the level of what we can see like on the particle level that affect what affect what - 

PETER: Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: happens, you know, that affect behaviors that we can see. And I think that's what I mean I don't really  understand magnetism fully. I don't I don't think many people do, but but yeah, the sort - 

PETER: Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: of the effect that you can see being based on something smaller feels well that feels like what's going on here when I'm  trying to um define this line and I'm sort of then something else is happening where it's really sort of splitting and going into ripplets and going into um it's going where it wants. But yeah, I mean - 

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: that that's exactly the same reason that I love well love working with magnets or love working with a variety of things really  that I don't want to get used to a particular material or to sort of be um to learn how  to control it too much because I think that's sort of where it then that's where it ends in terms of these sort of experiments

PETER: Yes. Right. Right. I  see. I see. It's always the almost the learning process that is interesting, the the the studying with or the the  the con conversing with and once there's a sense of full control or ability to control the material that that gets lost a little bit perhaps

Tim Spooner: Yeah.the possibility like the possibilities get diminished because you'll sort of yeah - that I think you can still  learn you can still sort of find techniques of of um remaining sort of  holding that good balance of of not knowing and knowing. But um yeah, maybe  it's the most interesting when well actually I was going to say it's the most interesting when you really don't know but actually it really is  a balance in the sense that you do want to get some kind of knowledge - 

PETER: Mhm.

Tim Spooner: and relationship with the thing but you - 

PETER: Mhm. 

Tim Spooner: also don't want to be in control of it. So it's it's really - a particular moment that you want to hold on to or sort  of elongate in terms of your - 

PETER: Yes. Yes. I would I I I was injured  this spring. I had a hip injury. I know. I know.

Tim Spooner: relationship. Yeah. The - 

PETER: It sounds so dramatic. Just jumping in like that.  Yeah. Yeah. Um trantonitis, berscitis or

Tim Spooner: hip. Yeah. - 

PETER: something. But it's a fatigue like thing. Anyway, the thing that I was  so struck by, you go to the physio and the the the physio starts talking about the body in a way which I'm like,  “gosh, do I not know anything about my body?” And yet, you know, I would argue that's been  my main material for the majority of my life. Um and yet there's  something um when you meet someone who works in a sort of different way that non a  non artistic way there is

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: um there's an understanding  that that it's just um yeah different um and have you had that as well where where people  have told you things about magnetism and which offsets the balance or 

Tim Spooner: I don't know. I - do think magnetism is one of those ones that um there's not there's not a lot people I  mean silly thing to say. Lots of people have written about them and say things about them, but I do think they're one of those things that is still a little bit of  a um bit of

PETER: magic. 

Tim Spooner: magic. Yeah. like people - don't really fully quite get -  it. I don't know. I'm I don't want to say something stupid, but I was going to say it's one of those things we don't fully  understand, but that's probably not - 

PETER: Yeah. I was actually

Tim Spooner: true. Some people some people that know things say that that say - 

PETER: listening to a podcast. 

Tim Spooner: that. Um - 

PETER: Sure. Um I was listening to a podcast where

Tim Spooner: yeah. - 

PETER: they were it's a science podcast. I think it's called um the rest is  science. And actually they were speaking about magnetism and how um and often in that as  well like there feels like this this sort of dupability because science has this like ability to say no this is absolute truth and  yet you're like oh wait is that really true what they're saying everything feels contestable so nothing feel everything  feels embarrassing almost but they were speaking about magnetism and how just um random it is  that we actually can experience magnetism that it's an effect like there's plenty of planets they were saying that don't have a  magnetic field. So the fact that we can orientate ourselves using a magnet to the earth's magnetic  field is actually really just um quite

Tim Spooner: tandenual. - 

PETER:  Yeah. It's like exactly it's  um it's quite specific to us to our planet to Earth. Like we could have been on another planet I think. I know now  I might be completely wrong but I think they were saying Mars actually doesn't have a

Tim Spooner: I wonder if that's to - 

PETER: magnetic field which is amazing to think and it's 

Tim Spooner: do with the material that it is in, you know, in the - 

PETER: just Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think so. Yeah. and the movement of the material. I think they were  almost saying they don't fully understand why we have a magnetic or like how it's fully created and what what caused it in the first place. Yeah.

Tim Spooner: core. Yeah. And it flips every now and - then as well, doesn't - 

PETER: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. this what they were talking about as well  the flipping of it and then but I think it's like with all these things you know that there is a mysterious  nature and um our experiences… what's nice is like um we can experience the world as like of course magnetics exist you know like it's it's so  obvious and yet if we really think about it everything is so like um happen stance almost that we should  just be continually bombarded by awe and amazement of like oh my god this this is this is  here this works this is happening and there's something about like the I don't know the investigations of your work which allows us to  go into that awe and spectacle of like oh my word what is this strange sensation and  qualities that that exist in the world which we sort of mundanitize. Um I was reading  a Danish book called “On the calculations of volume” and it's about a lady who gets stuck in time and in there that she sort  of sort of says this of like we should just be constantly in crisis almost because of the the magnitude of  like the absurdity of our reality actually. 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. I think it it - it feels like the um the most sort of complex and unlikely thing is our own that's  is our own realities. the realities of our bodies, the realities of our sort of um you know sense  of consciousness or yeah - 

PETER: consciousness sensorial.Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: just sense and and also like like you were saying about your - your you know having an injury or even though and I I'm sure as a as a performer you do  have a certain knowledge of your own anatomy or sort of a certain idea of what's sort of going on in there.  But still, I feel like most of our sense of what's going on in there that in a way that's the sort of most  metaphorical world, the sort of interiors of our bodies because - we're, you know, or or fictional world that - 

PETER: M. Mhm. Mhm. 

Tim Spooner: we're constantly sort of building this sort of dream version of what's happening in there or like why we feel a  certain pain or or emotion. Um, yeah, and it's and  it's obviously the thing we have the richest experience of. - 

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: Um, so yeah, I feel like - that that's what I'm trying to in a way by doing these things with like magnets for  example. Um, I suppose I'm trying to think about if you if you can  um demonstrate or perform something that's sort of made of magnets doing what they  do. What how how about -  if you and and you see some kind of  um sort of I well when I when I work with them I I kind of see it in terms of sort of desire or want you know the the magnetic pull of of  of two things to each other and and the whole texture of want and desire and and  um through all of the - 

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: um all of the sort of intermediaries these, you know,  intermediary materials between the between the two magnets that are pulling towards each other. Um, the pressures and  the textures and all of those things. I I sort of recognize that as a sort of want.  And um so in a way there may be a sort of thought  about if we were to see our own  um our own the realities of our own bodies or of our own desires as in those like  framed by that or in those same terms. So not to sort of reduce human experience, but to sort  of elevate um what - 

PETER: Mhm. material experience. 

Tim Spooner: might be going on in the material. Yeah. Well, and I I wouldn't want to call - that literally the same thing or wouldn't want to call it experience even - 

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: because I don't I don't know that it is, but  it sort of doesn't matter. But just something about kind of flattening that that um distinction  feels good to me. - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I think I I guess you're waiting for yours to dry, are you?

Tim Spooner: Oh yeah, ma'am. I am. - Yeah. Do you want to see what I've done or do you want to - 

PETER: Me, too. Me, too. Just so that I  mean, uh, I can show.

Tim Spooner: wait? We've got exactly the same - 

PETER: Yeah, that's 

Tim Spooner: brown and the - 

PETER: true. We maybe have the same palette. I think we had the same black last time. 

Tim Spooner: same almost the same picture. Not quite. - 

PETER: Great.  Oh, I'm excited. Um, I wanted to say just on that. Um, I'm going to start I think inside and 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Okay. Me, too

PETER: have a go. see if I can um the there's what's  I think really interesting is this element of performance. Now, when I say that, I think I think it narrows maybe what I'm trying to talk about a little bit too much, but I think what I mean by performance in relationship to this  like being with a material is this thing of like acting acting with it, sensing  and perceiving with the material. Like we only know about the material through our  our lived perception of it and our performative sort of um interactions with it  like I have to think of like you know when you're well when I was in the shop as a child and my parents would say don't touch that  you can look with your eyes however obvious the obvious thing is like but actually I don't I'm wanting to know more  about it than just visually uh about it. 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: And that that feels like maybe maybe that's too simplified of a relationship to these these material  phenomena. Um, but you you're from what I've seen  of your work and things like the performativity, the being in performance, being in action  and relationship to the material is seems to be really important.

Tim Spooner: Yeah, I think so. It's like um and - even even even when it's doing something like this uh that isn't a performance. It's to it's like whatever it is you're sort  of well I don't know if this describes how you feel when you're doing this but I feel like I'm sort of  becoming part of a system with the with the things. So yeah, - 

PETER: Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: again, it's like a sort of flattening down of the distinction between me and the things. It's  a it's a system that couldn't exist without all of those elements, including me doing it.  Um but but yeah that feels strong like you're you're not you're not just observing it. You're  being you're being part of it and it's being part - of you

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: or or you're both  part of the same thing at - 

PETER: Yeah. Yes. Yes. Something bigger than the the the sum of our parts 

Tim Spooner: least. Yeah. - 

PETER: almost or as equal to the sum of our parts like every part is included. There's um  I mean this part is is is so beautiful like sensorally because you know  you feel like you're holding your breath like there's um there's a real risk at play and yet there is a there's a there's a a clear need. I need to get the  color closer to the edge. but not too close that the the the gap between them  disappears. And if the that idea of being implicated in the system in the structure just as much as  the material is or equally as the material, it really feels quite um  quite yeah quite strong

Tim Spooner: Yeah. And do you feel like you're sort of I'm I'm feeling like - I'm when I'm doing it, I'm sort of connecting and disconnecting with my sense of like for  example my hand being me or my it's because I'm really observing my own the limits of what I what's sort of possible to do because you're you're doing  something that you can never really do perfectly. So you you're sort  of it's you can't be on - 

PETER: Mhm. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

Tim Spooner: um you can't you can't feel totally connected to your  action cuz your action and your intention are sort of peeling apart. - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That you you reach the  limit of the the intention part of one's uh action, right? like

Tim Spooner: Yeah. So I to me it feels like I'm - watching something I'm not watching me  actually I'm watching um something else. So - 

PETER: um Yeah. Yeah. There's there's so much there's so  much observation involved. So it makes complete sense in a way that that that um that that sort of yeah grasps the

Tim Spooner: yeah - 

PETER: attention and I notice how much hard it is to talk now actually because  I'm consumed by the material. It's  um yeah, I wonder I wonder if it's interesting, but I was I went through a little this last spring I went  through a bit of a phase of listening to a lot about panpsychism 

Tim Spooner: Oh, yeah. - 

PETER: which um  is it's sort of if I remember correctly it sort of suggests that we we haven't  studied um consciousness or we we struggle to to sort of find the science to be  able to truly um articulate a good definition of what it is.  And some philosophers are sort of suggesting that well perhaps it's  because it's it's um not in the brain. Like we have

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. - 

PETER: this definition that we need to  remember and um re re recount things for them to be uh conscious. It  needs that that ability of remembering and reacountability. Uh but that's just because that's our way  of describing to each other. that's the the ways in which we so it doesn't necessarily mean  that consciousness needs those things and it was really it was really relevant to me because I was I have this performance for  babies that I was performing at the time

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: and um their their subjectjectivity of course is so questioning and during the performance where or during the tour and the creation and everything we're constantly  asking well what are they getting you know and can how can we how can we understand that but they don't  remember so we can't go back to the performance as I did five years ago and ask the child like how was it 

Tim Spooner: When they can - talk. - 

PETER: yeah exactly what do you even remember and they have no ability to recount because they're preverbal and so there's this um but yet we we all recognize them as conscious beings, right? 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: Like very few  people would say, "No, no, child doesn't get consciousness until they're able to describe their  experience." Uh so it really it was really interesting. And so some of these pansyists, they sort of take it to sort of  suggest that um every p that

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: um consciousness might be a fundamental condition of 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: the universe just like gravity. and magnetism I guess. Um  and with that logic then it would suggest that on some level everything has an amount  or a a bit of

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. - 

PETER: consciousness. Um, and I think of course this  like um would change of course how we perceive consciousness like what what it means like it's just more  or lesser um conscious

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Rather than on or off

PETER: or exactly  exactly and so in that regard like this reaction reaction because that's maybe one way of describing consciousness is that the ability to react and react to things I  think exists in the paint right like the it's acting and reacting to its  surrounding like it has a an ability to be in relationship to  them and have a response so to speak 

Tim Spooner: Yes. - 

PETER: even if it is more fundamental  Or is it more fundamental? Like are we that more complex that we escape the phys the  physics of the world? Right? Like that's what we're dealing with. Like the difference between our experience and  physical physics, magnetism, water tension, chemical composition.

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. and sort - of deterministic determined, you know, things - that are trapped in determined forms or  determined chains of events. But yeah, I I don't  know or but sometimes I wonder if it's just two different ways of looking at the same thing or especially that question of determinism - whe you know the question of whether  we're determined whether the whole universe is determined and as part of that whether we are but I sort of wonder whether the only  possible answer is that we are and we aren't you know - depending on and and - also the question at some point loses its meaning, you know, because it's sort of neither and - 

PETER: Right. Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: both. And it's a it's a uh a consequence of the way we ask the question  and the way and and also the way we think and express that it feels like a question at  all. And and maybe that's the same the - same with um  the same with what consciousness might be or experience. the fact -  that we have experiences  and and see that as sort of uh unique. I don't know. It's it's - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: a it's a question how we frame the question and rather - than um where  we of what the answer - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. Well, you you were speaking about control in  relationship to the practices or the the the performances and the work you do. Um especially with the magnets, right? And that that definitely that's at the heart of the question of determinism I would  say right like can how much and what what is controlling what do we have any control  like what is our ability to act and I think what's really interesting maybe is  like what is the creative creative nature of your back.  Um cuz we're we're following our instincts a little bit with  like the outside of the creature that we're finding and then we're following  the material and how it how it acts upon and controls the  situation. So like It challenges that those conventions of 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah, it's not a pure it's not a pure - experiment in any way, but but the that the um the and I I  do struggle with that in a way, but I think that but also that's what it is. And um  yeah, I think maybe we talked about this a bit last time, like for example, why depict at all, you know, why - um what are we doing when we're depicting something with, you know, we're or I mean as in sort  of representing a an animal form or or a human form - 

PETER: Mhm.

Tim Spooner: in whatever level of um you know  um not abstraction but um wobbly ess or realism. - Um, but I I can't stop doing it. And I think even - though I sort of talk about the  work coming from Yeah. the way maybe the way I talk about the work sounds quite sort of pure in that it's sort of following a  material and which which should sort of lead to quite abstract um work in a way.  But I think you can't ignore uh memory and  experience and the animals that we've experienced and the people that we've experienced and the way um you know the  things we've taken into our eyes and our senses and the sort of library of of um  that in our in all of our minds being the the the um sort of fundamental to  what what our realities are. Um so so for example,  what I things that well I'm thinking of lots of things at once now, but um I'm thinking of the work  that we performed in um with Simon, for example, and I'm thinking of um the work I'm doing  at the moment here in Tasmania. And then I'm thinking of these sort of small paintings that we're doing also. There's this there are so many moments when a kind of  um something we recognize kind of leaps out of what's happening. So in the case of Simon's work, it came out of  these these um these particular uh tasks that the performers - 

PETER: Yes.

Tim Spooner: were were given which which - um took away any took  away um intention from the performers and but but nevertheless  they had we had a really clear job to  do. um and the the sort of um I don't want to say the images but the the sort of  reality and the resonances visually that came out of that that came out of the of this - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. The association maybe

Tim Spooner: um yeah that came out of the um those moving bodies, you know, the things that  presented for maybe a split second and then that disappeared again. um were, you know, there there were there were  hundreds and thousands of things that were potent because there they tap into other things that people might have seen before um other  resonances. And the same with these pictures we're doing maybe in a in a different way. they're not really of anything, but they might  suggest multiple things, split for seconds. Um so it's -  that within that balance controlling and not you can't really get away from the the  um the forms that come up and the way they trigger memories of forms and - 

PETER: Mhm. 

Tim Spooner: um and and meanings. It sort of seems - 

PETER: Mhm. Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: um sort of un It seems more fun and more interesting  to not pretend that everything is abstract. I - 

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: suppose that's what I'm trying to - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or 

Tim Spooner: say. - 

PETER: that um things can be abstract. 

Tim Spooner: and and sort the truer. - 

PETER:Sorry. 

Tim Spooner: I think we can't help finding um we can't help - 

PETER: Yes.

Tim Spooner: seeing forms and things based on what we've seen before. - 

PETER: Yeah. No, it's sort of that it's  everything and nothing all at once. There's a sort of there's a beautiful  tension. And I wonder if there's a similar balancing that goes on of control and lack of  control that the meaning actually um is in that place of flux  of escaping and and getting caught by by me by  control. Um, and I think what I I sort of sort of so curious about the role  of art and um and creativity really in how it it aids  this sort of criticality and yet depends upon a certain lack of criticality. like there needs  to be um things there needs to be a sense of control or something needs to exist  in order for art to be able to open it up and say well to to lose control and to find  something something else something new and I think ultimately  then there's I I was sort of caught by this question of like um it needs to be fun  and enjoyable. And I'm really struck by that this is a private practice that you have without a  clear um object or like like yeah without a clear project maybe 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: um that you manage to sort of do it for its own sake which is  so Yes. So interesting because  yeah there's something there's a tension between the industry of art and this  more ambiguous place of

 art and creativity that is sort of entwined with  reality. um this questioning space and um how do we preserve  or move through the two um negotiating the conditions  of contemporary society. So, it's really really beautiful and it's  really what's really what's very beautiful is the creatures actually in your work. If I might be a little bit more  uh representative uh 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: because they feature they feature a lot and  they're usually connected to you somehow connected your bo to your body. I  mean, so I wonder is there a question there of like what's that relationship of living with  creatures, birthing or um midwifing or taking care of creatures  that you've found in materials and in the world and then um supporting them in their existence  in the world. How? Sorry, Tim. I'm almost psycho an analyzing your practice

Tim Spooner: You can. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I I struggle with it for the  reasons sort of for for the reasons I was talking about where there's always this tension between the abstract  and the and the um and then the representational.  Um, so I'm sort of doing these things with materials, but then they keep the  the materials keep putting themselves into the formation of an animal. - 

PETER: Mhm. 

Tim Spooner: Um, um, yeah, I don't know. I don't really know what else to to say about it other than  it just always feels like a kind of push and pull of oh can I how far into being an animal can this go and then can I pull it  back like like on a really basic level like you know does this have to have a head to still be an  animal or does this have to have a front and a back to still be an animal you know that's something we've been looking at  Um, in this work at the moment there's it everything in it is is sort of a puppet in a way, but it's also and and you know it they're puppeteers performing the things and um they have  this amazing skill of kind of giving giving life to objects  through the way they move them. and that and a big part of that is kind of listening or kind of feeling what what the tendencies of those materials  are. Um but then a lot of a lot of what we're working with is I suppose really trying to sort of hold this tension of of um not not pushing that too far into because it's  easy to sort of push something that's already like a furry blob for example into moving in  the way a guinea pig might move and And when that happens, we sort of we're sort of pulling back and we're sort of  going back and trying to work a bit harder at just because this  does look a bit like a guinea pig. It doesn't we it isn't like it isn't one. So, um - 

PETER: Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: and there's nothing to say where the front is. So um why doesn't it try going - 

PETER: Yeah. Another direction,

Tim Spooner: in the other direction? Yeah. - 

PETER: right? Yeah. 

Tim Spooner: So yeah, I feel in a way like all I'm I'm always trying to sort  of fight that or hold that um that that balance.  Um yeah, I don't know. I think there's such some something also about um yeah so it's it's um not but it is a balance rather than a  um rather than not being interested in seeing those of animals we've seen  before or people that can get evoked by by those forms or those suggestions of of  um recognizable elements of, you know, legs or fur or a face or whatever. - 

PETER: Yes. Yeah.  Hmm in a way I think well I don't know like there's something with especially contemporary art maybe how there's a  desire to those those sensations we have of keeping the balance in trying to  when we're discovering the creature and it has this ambiguity I feel like there's a desire to  to provide that for the audience as well. Not because if we just slip it into the  hamster, it's um that's not really what we're working with, you know, since the invention of the  camera. Almost art doesn't need to replicate things perfectly because the camera does such a better job.  So what we can replicate is the ambiguity that that resided in the finding the hamster almost the

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. That's nice. That feels nice. - 

PETER: Yeah. I mean  there's something very very human in the in the misinterpretation and the sort of openness  to to alternatives and allowing that things can remain there and perhaps um I  think like that's what I find with the baby performance which is really easy to articulate like that them that it's  very easy to be teaching them how to be human you because they're at an age where all they're doing  is learning. You know, everything is input to their um to their knowledge production that is sort of  like insane at that age. At the age of two months, three months, you

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: know, everything is material for that. And  so I think what has been really fun is trying to not educate and try to  appreciate the place where they're at. And then because of that maybe we're  struck by such huge variety and diversity of interest and curiosity and knowledge  and um personality perhaps even with each different child that is sort of there to attend  the performance and and yeah the the magic is exactly like  not we not not rushing to an end point or a thing and remaining in  the the other places a little bit longer. Um,

Tim Spooner: Yeah, that's lovely. 

PETER: how are you doing? I'm I'm at that point where I'm starting to go back to uh some of the gaps and I'm getting a bit too close

Tim Spooner: Are you going back - over? Wow. I don't do - 

PETER:. Yeah. So you 

Tim Spooner: that. I don't think - 

PETER: you you just follow the line place by place,

Tim Spooner: not I don't think I follow it like um - 

PETER: but you 

Tim Spooner: you know completely as a as like a - 

PETER: you orderly like clockwise or something. 

Tim Spooner: round. Yeah. I think I sort of I think I've got this thing where  I don't want to let it go dry in the middle. I don't want to let any edge that - 

PETER: Yes, I forgot about that. 

Tim Spooner: I've done go dry, which is not is not always possible, but um I think - 

PETER: Yeah.

Tim Spooner: that's leading where I go next. I'm sort of trying  to keep any edge I've done a bit wet so

 that it can be moved. - 

PETER: been moved again closer. 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. - 

PETER: Your mine's quite dry now. I'm getting  dry. I will try I I must try that again because I remember now you saying that uh 

Tim Spooner: But it's not it's not really possible to always do but and also where you do get these edges or these like  concentrations or these um yeah it's not it it doesn't result in like an even surface but  there's something about not not allowing us a um a really strong line to  form. That feels like a good part of -  the um exercise. - 

PETER: before. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because you sometimes do these with very big pieces of paper. So then um trying to keep it all wet of course becomes not actually possible. 

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah. But then it's sort of impossible and you've got to decide where to - sometimes then I leave a line in a tiny place but you know so it's there but it's you know in a little pinch - point where I can leave it and -  um concentrate on a bigger - bit. 

PETER: Yeah. And I wonder if  um lines actually relate back to this abstraction representation question we were talking about. 

Tim Spooner: Well, yeah, lines and edges is what I've is is the sort of um way of thinking about it that I've been thinking about most recently. That's sort of maybe through doing these. That's the new way. And I've been doing a lot of Yeah. edges like looking at I've been looking at at  seals a lot because I live by the sea now. - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. Of course. 

Tim Spooner: Um, I think we were talking about this a bit before, but the thing of I mean there's lots going on in looking at seals for me, but there's something like well  yeah like one thing is like you don't really know what they look like fully because they they are quite  amorphous and they all they can all be really different from each other. It's the case with lots of animals, but there's something  very particularly mysterious about them because you just see like  a a this sort of cut off section of them because they sort of  just stick up above the water and then or like a head and the top of a body or just a head or whatever. And there's this whole total unknown about how big they are under there or like exactly what the shape is under there because  they don't really give it away very often. Yeah, you see them on the on the rocks sometimes, but that  feels like a completely different reality from from how it might be in the water. You know, there's something really about what it might be down there, but it's it's sort of cut off by this edge of the of the pl, you know, where it meets water. -

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. Of the water. Yeah. that I mean and even on land they they're sort of this tubular 

Tim Spooner: Um yeah, quite changeable. 

PETER: blobular type featureless.

Tim Spooner: Yeah. But  I think the thing about Yeah. Needing to needing to define an edge is something  we do and and it does connect to needing to categorize needing to express in language and also needing to depict anything. If it if it does feel  um like one like like one thing which is um a human thing  um to yeah to sort of divide the world up into into  compartments. - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah. No, exactly. the the I mean edge of things and definitions  and order and control they all are very related in fact you 

Tim Spooner: and about Yeah. boundaries and rules and 

PETER: know in a in one way or another. Yeah, exactly. The limits of words and meaning and of things of  us. Yeah. Ask in 

Tim Spooner: Yeah, I've finished now. I've made a lot of I've done - 

PETER: our All right.

Tim Spooner: a I've gone over the line alot. 

PETER: Good. I I  started wetting just to try. So I fear if I lift it up I will run now.

Tim Spooner: Oh. - 

PETER: But I can show you like this. 

Tim Spooner: Oh, that's good. Yeah, you tilt the screen down  Oh, there it is

PETER: Yeah. Lifting the  laptop. Yeah. Can I see yours? Do you have Wow. And  if you look at it longer, you start to see things of

Tim Spooner: Think the British Isle. I'm seeing - 

PETER: course, but it's it's very Yeah,  it's very map like. It's true. Yes. Uh Tim, this was a pleasure.  Um what are you what are you up to and stuff? Maybe that's something we could get go to.  Um, how could people get in touch with your work? I mean, you're here in Tasmania and this  pro will probably happen before this comes out,

Tim Spooner: Yeah, it's going to happen in May. - 

PETER: but also maybe not. 

Tim Spooner: Maybe not depending. - 

PETER: Maybe if we have Tasmanian listeners, they

Tim Spooner: Well, it's not happening. It's happening in - 

PETER: could Oh, for real. Oh, 

Tim Spooner: London and in Norwich. Yeah, maybe you're if - 

PETER: marvelous.

Tim Spooner: you're in Cambridge, you might still be there. Yeah, it's - 

PETER: Yeah. Yeah, Norwich is plenty close.

Tim Spooner: not um it's happening at the beginning of May at Baty Art Center and then of the Norwich Festival and then a venue in  Leipzig in Germany and maybe and I hope in Tasmania eventually, but we don't know yet when I hope in  place. So yeah, that's the next that's the next um thing that's happening. 

PETER: Yeah. And you have an online performance. Do you want to mention that?

Tim Spooner: Yeah. Yeah, I have an online - performance with um a friend of mine called Rhiannon Armstrong,  another artist that we started in  um in you know when in lockdown  um and um which started sort of as just something for us to do together and  then we made it a sort of zoom conference framed people could join that way. Um, and now, well, I think we've it, it's coming up to a year now where we've sort of restarted doing it as a monthly live stream. So,  you can watch it on a website and it's called the microscope sessions and the website is the microscope  sessions.net or you can watch it on YouTube or whatever. Um but yeah, so it's it's in the form of a live stream and then we archive all the they're like 50 minute long sessions each one where we make a painting together  under a microscope. So I can show you that's that's my part of the painting from the time we did it the other week. 

PETER: Gosh, it's tiny. It's 

Tim Spooner: So they really they're really it's like the size of my - 

PETER: smaller than your It's smaller than your nail

Tim Spooner: fingernail. But but the way we do it is that we overlay our our um digitally overlay our videos

PETER: Yeah. Your videos.

Tim Spooner: so that on our screens we're  we're kind of trying to we're sort of trying to create the illusion of making one  picture out of out of the two pictures we're doing in our separate places. But  um yeah, you can watch it next - 

PETER: Mhm. Yes. Yes. And I mean, you're very active and you have a great website, so I will link to  that and everything. It's such a pleasure and it's a pleasure to do it in this format where we're talking and doing at the same time. It uh it takes some

Tim Spooner: Yeah. - 

PETER: cognitive uh double think but it's  it's it's really nice like it it has an edge quality in the performance almost of talking like 

Tim Spooner: It's true. - 

PETER: this. Yeah. having the material I feel controlled. There's a balancing controlling act  between the meaning produced both physically with the painting and uh with the talking. 

Tim Spooner: Yeah, it's true. - 

PETER: Um okay well then thank you Tim. We we will hope well I I will continue 

Tim Spooner: I'm - glad

PETER: doing this. I already have been so uh but

Tim Spooner: I will. Yeah, - 

PETER: and I'm sure you will. It seems like a 

Tim Spooner: don't - 

PETER: really rewarding and uh we'll keep talking.

Tim Spooner: worry. Yes, that'll be nice. 

PETER:  I'm I'm sure of it. Okay. Thank you, Tim. Bye-bye. 

Tim Spooner: you. Yes, nice to see.