A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Mastering Emotions - Boosting Work Performance and Enjoyment

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Rachael Edmondson-Clarke • Season 2 • Episode 4

Share episode

Send us a text

Episode 4

Following the episode on mood (season 2, episode 2), Rachael Edmondson-Clarke returns to delve into the interconnected topic of emotion. While mood is an internal state, emotions are our responses to external stimuli. They can surprise us and disrupt both performance and relationships.

Rachael helps us understand why emotions affect us and how we can manage, select, and alter our natural reactions. We contribute with perspectives on DIY, football, golf, and road rage, but fortunately, Rachael offers more intriguing insights that will help you enhance your performance and enjoyment at work.

To find out more, contact Rachael, Jimmy or James

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James:

Good afternoon. How are you doing?

Jimmy:

I'm doing well. How are you, James?

James:

I'm fabulous. Thank you very much. The sun is shining. It's a beautiful day in Nottingham. It hasn't been beautiful for about three weeks, but currently it's beautiful.

Jimmy:

So what are we going to talk about today?

James:

so today we've got a follow on episode. We talked with Rachel Edmondson Clark about moods. And now we're going to talk about emotions. So, before I carry on, I should, reintroduce Rachel. Rachel, how are you?

Rachael:

I'm very well, thank you for having me back.

Jimmy:

Welcome back, Rachel. And, for those of you who haven't listened to the, moods episode, you should do. But, Rachel is an expert in helping leaders change their behavior to get positive results without resistance. And you are an expert in psychology and biology, I believe, Rachel.

Rachael:

Yes, thank you.

Jimmy:

So before we get into the subject, James, what have you been up to this week?

James:

I have mostly been fixing my daughter's window. It's been up the ladder with some paint and some filler.

Jimmy:

Life on the edge.

James:

Yeah, it's very exciting. I had to tell my wife to stand at the bottom of the ladder just for safety's sake, she kept wandering off. You can't trust some women.

Jimmy:

I on the other hand, for those who aren't aware, the football season's restarted. So my life is now filled to the brim with the goings on in the new season. But I'll update you further as we get into the season. So to recap, last episode we talked about moods. And, correct me if I'm, I'm wrong, Rachel, the reason why we want to talk about moods and emotion was that it has such a big impact on our ability to perform at work and our relationships as, as well. So underpin performance. And what we talked about last week in terms of mood was just understanding a bit more about your moods. understanding how you then can restore it, the steps that you can take on how you can then also manage your the mood of your the people in your team and how you can help them restore their moods as well. and I really liked the analogy that you were talking about about the difference between moods and emotion, which I think moods worth climate. And emotional is the weather, but you'll be

Rachael:

A useful way of thinking about it because moods can, they can kind of creep up on us. Sometimes we don't always know that we are in a mood or in a bit of a funk. Sometimes someone else is the first one to tell us. And so like the climate, it's, It, it, it may, it may change more steadily, whereas emotions, they are normally felt much more acutely. The Both moods and emotions, they are signals to us and the moods are a signal that something internally, it's a biofeedback loop that is telling us something internally is out of balance. Whereas emotions, which we're going to talk about today, see those as an external feedback loop. So something from the external environment has triggered us in some way. We'll often feel that much more acutely. And of course, these two interrelate and they interplay. I think simplifying it and breaking it out like this is really, really useful to help us better understand what we can do about it so that we can ultimately behave in ways and take action that's going to get us the kind of results that we want.

James:

So if I've got a signal from my external environment, what, how does that affect my emotion and, what's it causing?

Rachael:

So, one of the things that I think is really useful to think about, is this idea that as human beings we social needs that must be met, and when those needs aren't met, when they are triggered, That can cause an emotional reaction. And so if you feel as though you are emotionally reacting to something, be it something that perhaps your boss has said, is it maybe one of five mammal needs that are being triggered? So the first one is around inclusion. So we all have this need to feel a sense of being included and that we belong.

James:

Yeah.

Rachael:

is, go on, James

James:

No, I was just agreeing. Doesn't happen very often. Enjoy it and move swiftly on. Yeah, take it. And

Rachael:

one is certainty. We know we, we need to have that feeling of confidence in the future and in what's happening and, and kind of what could happen to us. The third one is equity. So we want to feel as though we've got equal access to resources to be successful. Then there's autonomy. So that ability for us to be able to control our own resources and to meet our goals. And the final one is attachment. That sense of being valued and that sense of status,

James:

do you think then, Rachel, that we have, specific hot buttons, certain things trigger different people differently? Let me give you an example. So I was on holiday, I had been to the south of France, I had driven from the south of France back to England. One thousand miles from Nice to Nottingham, I can tell you. And for the first 800 miles of those I had some idiot French man, probably about three inches off my bumper. And it, that really triggers me. And I have an emotional reaction, road rage. I think for me, really it's about equity. Why is this person trying to steal my bit of road? That's not necessarily a rational response. But I think that's probably what triggers me. Yeah.

Rachael:

Absolutely. Absolutely. And if, if we are triggered in that, so it's useful to understand which of these needs are being triggered because the next thing is, is to say, well, what am I going to do about it? It's a signal and your body is looking for you to take some kind of response so that you resolve that you want to get yourself back. As we were talking last time into that state of homeostasis, you want to turn the alarm signal off. And so if it's, If it's someone that's causing that issue, can you speak with them to resolve how you're feeling? Well, you're not going to do that with the man on the road

Jimmy:

French, ain't good?

James:

No, I tell my French swearing I'm quite good at that, yeah. But no, it's not helpful in that circumstance. Right,

Rachael:

But that's, that's unlikely, that's unlikely to be safe or a wise, move. But in the workplace, if someone has triggered one of these emotions, potentially you would be in a situation where you could go and speak to them to resolve how you were feeling about it. And if you, if you can't, if it's not someone and if it's something that's caused it, so it's not a person, but it's the situation, can you fix that issue? And back to the road rage example that you were talking about there, James, is when you can't resolve because you couldn't have spoken to that person, or you might have wound down your window and shouted some French. Obliques. So

James:

that's right. for swearing in a separate language. We have the explicit, thing checked. So, you can swear in any language. Okay.

Rachael:

because that's probably not going to be useful, then what you'd need to do is you'd need to regulate in that situation. And I think it's really interesting to talk about some of the different ways that we can recognize that we're being emotionally triggered and regulate ourselves so that we can choose Different behaviors, different actions and get a better results. I think it's worth saying before I go any further on regulation that overriding our emotions in this way is very costly in the sense that it takes a lot of our resources to be able to do that. but it's incredibly powerful and it does work exceptionally well. And one of the things that we can do is we can choose the meaning that we attach to the event. that happened to us. So for example, that road rage, I wonder James, what meaning you had attached to it that led to you feeling as though your mammal needs had been triggered? What had you decided about that person who drove for that long up your bum?

James:

and it's interesting, isn't it? Cause I think actually there are two things. I think there is him grabbing, stealing resources from me. He's stealing my bits of roads, not rational, but that's what he's doing. And then the other thing is because he is so close, he's actually a threat to my wife and daughters. And it's those two things. Those are the things which are triggering me, so my sense of meaning is you're a French. whatever, but that's not helpful. So what would you talk about, being able to choose the meaning? What would the better meaning be?

Rachael:

One of the great questions that you could also ask might be, well, what else might also be true of that situation with that guy, James?

Jimmy:

So could your example would be, could he be in a rush because he's got a sick child in the hospital that he needs to get to

Rachael:

Could be. I, like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know, but that could absolutely be another meaning, that you could attach to this. It could be that you just don't know why he's driving that way. But actually, I'm going to let him get past me. So that he can get on with his journey and I can see

James:

get away from

Rachael:

and,

James:

actually, that's a really powerful thought, Because he's a lot safer in front of me than he is behind me. So if I'm really worried about my wife and daughter's, safety, I'd let him go. Because frankly, that bit of road that he's taking of mine, I'm going to have it within the next second anyway. It's not really that important. So it's that ability to stand back and, as you say, put a different meaning on it.

Jimmy:

But before, just before we get too far into the, the kind of response and regulation of it, just back to those. So, so you've got five mammal needs that you're saying that, that trigger our responses. Is it that all external stimulus and events and things that happen to me going to trigger one of those five needs either positively or negatively? Is that, is that the case?

Rachael:

Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. So if you are, if you are experiencing an emotional response to something, it's normally because one of these five mammal needs have been triggered. Yes,

James:

But it could be positive. So it could be, I feel treated really fairly. I feel really well included. I feel safe, whatever. So it could be positive.

Rachael:

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yes.

James:

Ah, that's very interesting. So I'll just digress very quickly. So as a manager, able to trigger those emotions in your staff through your, what you are doing is actually a very positive thing to do because you make them feel good about themselves. I used to work for a guy, and he was, he was a plant manager. Do you know, he was in the gods. He was about five levels more senior than me. But whenever he walked past, he always used to say, hello, James. Which, of course, is just triggering that sense of inclusion,

Jimmy:

but there's also it's a little bit like a lot of people would have come across Maslow's hierarchy of needs, which is, you're just getting you're getting the needs you have as a social creature met in this in this instance, or, either met or not met. And that that triggers an emotional response, You're saying you've got to be able to understand your response.

Rachael:

Yes, absolutely. Particularly if the emotion that you're feeling is, perhaps it's an unpleasant one and it's not one that you want to feel. That's where we want to step in and we want to intervene. And if, if we can, between the stimulus and our response, whatever it is, a person, a situation, something happens. If we can actually start to think about opening up even just a fraction of time, of space. between that stimulus and our response. In that space is our ability to choose. And in that space where we can choose is all of our freedom as human beings. It's why, when you can look at people who have had some horrific things happen to them, They've been put in prison, unjustly, for example, treated unfairly. Perhaps they've had all their, all their limbs blown off in, in warfare. And you can look at two people who exactly the same situation has happened to, but in the space between what happened to them and what they decide it means. can be the difference between somebody feeling suicidal and feeling enormously grateful.

James:

There's a very famous example. Sorry, you told me about a guy who was in the, concentration camps.

Rachael:

Yes, well, that is a, it's a bit of a classic that is, so that's Viktor Frankl and his book is called Man's Search for Meaning. now, Viktor Frankl was, a professor of neurology and psychiatry at the University of Vienna, Medical School and, during World War II, he spent three years in Auschwitz and other concentration camps. And what was really interesting was him observing And so I was observing the difference between those who managed to, seemingly do well through those concentration camps mentally, their mental health versus those that really struggled. And the difference was in the meaning that they attached the fact that they were in those concentration camps and what was happening. It's never the events that happen to us, but it's the meanings that we attach to them that lead us to feel how we feel. And we have the choice to decide what events mean. There's always more meanings available. And I recognize that some of your listeners might be thinking, no way, there isn't. Because sometimes it does feel that way. I know it does. That's where actually getting some help, getting some coaching, getting some support to help you see things from other perspectives. there's always, there's always other meanings that you can attach to the events that happen to us.

Jimmy:

so you've got an external stimulus that then triggers one of these mammal needs. You will have an instinctive reaction to that. That instinctive reaction might not be the most helpful one for you and those people around you. So in that gap between the stimulus and your reaction, there is just the need to be conscious about and choose that reaction.

Rachael:

How, looking to choose, you're looking to put yourself in a resourceful, emotional state. Because let's just say you've received an email from your boss, and you're about to go in and hold a team meeting, and that team meeting is really important for you to be positive, upbeat, motivational, engaging with your team. But actually, you're feeling quite frustrated, pissed off, angry or whatever it is, because you've just been triggered by that email. How do you then regulate your emotions so that you can be in a more resourceful state to perform at your absolute best for that, for that situation? And, and, choosing the meaning. So the email that your boss has sent you, does that mean that they are harsh, unfair, don't understand what's going on, Or could it mean that, perhaps, do you know what, I've not explained myself fully. I need to go back and pick this up with him. it's fine. That is, what is one of the things that will help you to regulate that emotion. But there are three choices that all of us are making at any given point in time. In fact, you two are making these choices right now as you're listening to me. And they will mould what we decide any given situation means. And those three choices that we're making are how we're moving our bodies, how we're holding and breathing our bodies physically, what we're choosing to focus on and what we're saying to ourselves and other people and ultimately what then the situation means, so the language that we're using. And if we recognize that we're making those choices split second, we're doing it automatically all the time. And if you recognise that you're making those choices, you can actually make better choices. So I would encourage you to think about the meaning, you can break it down into these three moulders of meaning, these three choices around our physiology, focus and language.

James:

well, so can you just expand on that a wee bit then Rachel, so give me some examples. So you talk about physiology and how we are using our body. What would be an example

Rachael:

I'm sure many of your listeners will have seen Amy Cuddy's TED Talk on power poses, which is a great example. So one of the things that we can do is we can think about how we use our body more confidently to be more resourceful and in that emotional state. I've done this with hundreds of leaders where I've had them all sat in their chairs and they're all listening to me. And I, you can say to them, right, okay, do bored or fed up or depressed. How to hold your body when I say those things to you. Equally, I can say to you, right, do confident, do relaxed. And everybody's physiology changes. So I think Absolutely.

James:

but it's the whole thing about putting a pencil in your mouth. You put your pencil in your mouth, it forces you to smile. And actually bizarrely cheers you up. So I'll bring you a pencil next week, mate. Thanks, Joe. You'll enjoy the session. But yeah, it has a really powerful effect.

The show you're listening to right now. Brings you insights to help you improve performance and enjoyment of work. It takes a long time to produce, but we think it's well worth it. It's all in the name of helping you get your job done well. All we ask in return is that you share the link to the show with someone that you think would benefit from it. And if you haven't already, click on follow the show wherever you're listening to this podcast right now. Anyway, let's get back to the show.

Rachael:

Now, if you want a radical change in how you feel, radically change how you're moving your body. I always say to people, have you ever felt, upset or sad and then you've gone out for a run, a bike ride, a swim? you've moved your body in a different way and you felt better or somebody's made you laugh. And, that instant that they make you, you, you, you laugh. You don't, in that, in that split second that they're making you, you might immediately want to go back to feeling sad and, upset or depressed again, but in that moment that they make you laugh, you can't feel that way, because your body is being moved in a very, very different way, but we don't consciously realize it. So actually being aware that how you move your body affects how you feel. We know it because we see people that work for us and the way that they move their bodies around the offices, around the workplace, you know, you know how they're feeling most of the time.

James:

Well, it's really interesting how you say it. Because they actually, you can tell, it has an impact on the people around them even. Yeah. Yeah, totally get

Rachael:

it

James:

So that's

Rachael:

Yes,

James:

the first

Rachael:

It does.

James:

That's physiology.

Rachael:

that's different. Remember that your motion equals your emotion. So think about how you are moving your body. The second one is focus and what you focus on you feel. I'm working with people who are focused on what they're afraid of or what could go wrong so much of the time that they forget to focus on where they want to go and the possibilities and what could happen in a positive way. And so you've got choices around are you, are you focused on what you're afraid of or where you want to go? Are you focused on your past? A past that you can't change. Are you focused in the present, those that are focused in the present, and to be much calmer and happier, or are you focused in the future? Now again, the future could be excitement, but it could also be anxiety as well about what might happen in the future. Recognising where you are choosing to focus is really important. Because then you can change it if you need to be more resourceful. The other one that I'll just share with you quickly is what's right or what's wrong. So there's multiple different ways in which we will, we will direct our focus. But I would ask your listeners to think about where is their focus most of the time in some of these lenses that I've just mentioned? And is it helping them be in a resourceful state? And if not, one of the quickest ways to change your focus is with a question and with a better question. Cause we have these questions that we habitually ask ourselves and we don't even realize it. Like what's wrong with me? Why is life so hard? why does this always happen to me? that type of thing. There's so many questions that we will habitually ask ourselves and your brain has to come up with a response to those questions. So ask a better question, so if you are concerned and you are afraid or worried about something, I encourage you, look that tiger in the eye. What is it that I'm concerned about? How can I mitigate that? What kind of things do I need to put in place to make sure that that doesn't happen? Then switch your focus. So you ask better questions in that way, and it changes how resourceful you feel emotionally and helps you take the action that you need to take to get the results that you want to get.

Jimmy:

just a great example as well. You mentioned facing tigers there. There was a great story about Tiger Woods. Who, was, obviously one of the best golfers of all time. And when he first started out, he was unbeatable and he won loads of tournaments. And then there was one tournament, after a few years that on the final round, he, he messed up and he choked And he was way ahead. And he, he, had a putt on the last green and he missed it. And she went into a playoff and he was all over the place and this was historic, he was choking and he, he went into the playoff and, he. It was amazing in this playoff and he blew the other guy away completely. And they asked him, how come you went from messing up winning the biggest golf tournament in the world to being able to play so well? Cause usually golf is a really mental game. you've got to overcome that, that last shot that you did badly. And that's people really struggle because they're always looking backwards at what I've just messed up, what I did wrong. Anyhow, he turned around and said, well, as I walked up to the playoff holes, rather than thinking about how unlucky I was having missed a putt to, to lose the, U. S. Open, I just thought to myself, aren't I the luckiest man in the world? I'm going to get the chance to win the U. S. Open twice in the same day. And on the second one, he took, and took that. So it was just a complete shift of his thinking.

Rachael:

Absolutely. Shift in focus. What we focus on, we feel. And one of the simplest things to do is to shift your focus to gratitude. asking yourself that question, What can I be grateful for? That's what Tiger Woods was doing right there in that moment. So, yeah.

James:

You've talked about focus, but language, is that the same thing or is that a different thing?

Rachael:

No, well, we can use language and how we shape our questions to help us direct our focus so it does interplay. However, I would say that language is It's incredibly emotive. If you think about it, the words we use can turbocharge how we are feeling, or it can dial things down. So, if you wanted to say, I'm incredibly bleep bleep with somebody, versus,. They've annoyed me a little bit. It's going to feel different So when you ask somebody, how are you? They will have a habitual response to that. So how are you?

Jimmy:

Yeah, I'm all right.

Rachael:

I'm alright. Yeah, I'm alright. Now, if you wanted to charge that, I mean, then let me ask you how you feel when you say, yeah, I'm alright.

Jimmy:

Pretty mediocre, just,

James:

I'm fabulous.

Rachael:

Exactly. There you go. We have the choice to choose

James:

mean, I've noticed.

Rachael:

people will say I'm stressed, I'm stressed, I'm stressed, I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed, I've got,

James:

you're,

Rachael:

I'm overwhelmed, I've got, I've got, I've got, I've got, I've got, I've got, I've got. How are you today?

James:

it makes such a big difference.

Rachael:

Yeah. Oh, actually, gosh, things are moving in a shaking and I'm spinning lots of plates, but my gosh, I'm really excited about what, what's happening. That one's used a lot, isn't it? Now that difference between being anxious and excited because they are

Jimmy:

It's a

Rachael:

very close. There's a fine line. So what we call it and what we describe it will impact how we feel. So if you've got a big presentation coming up and you are feeling maybe a little bit anxious about change that, I'm really excited for this. I'm grateful for the opportunity to do this and it will help to change how you, how you feel about things.

Jimmy:

And it's the language that we use internally to describe things and the language that we use externally as well. And both are equally powerful because I think you're right. We, we, we use language, I think personally, very carelessly. So I don't think we put a lot of thought into the words that we use a lot of the time and, and therefore we miss out on the opportunity

James:

an example, my, mum, bless her. My dad died about 10 years ago, my dad died and, she was undisturbed to be quite cut up about it. And then at one point she just stood up and she said, I was lucky I had a good marriage and it was almost like a switch had flicked in her head. She just, picked herself up and obviously she was still grieving, but it just changed her outlook.

Rachael:

The other thing that I would add which is our thoughts in our own head and the language we use with ourselves, I'd also encourage people to just notice what that voice is like inside their heads. Is it loud or soft and quiet? Is it, a faint, faint whisper? And is it talking to you in a harsh, critic, nasty voice? Or is it talking to you in a soft, loving, encouraging voice. Because these are also choices that we have when we recognize that our thoughts are just thoughts in our head, we all have them. And when you notice what the sound of that voice is like, that is, that is, that is saying these things to you in your head, you can change that. And sometimes we are our own harshest critics.

Jimmy:

Yeah. It's true. It's true. What you say, though, you're, there's no way yourself talk. You ever say the word quite, you're never playing it down. I'm, I'm quite angry. It's not. I'm really pissed off. in your head. Yeah, I'm quite angry. I'm quite, I'm quite fed up. You wouldn't be saying that internally. I think the other in the other interest.

Rachael:

nasty words and saying things very, harsh, nasty tone.

James:

Well, you talk like that to yourself. Is there any any surprise you're in a bad mood? Yeah. Yeah. Very good point.

Jimmy:

But the, the, the other interesting thing I think about all of these things around emotions, we're, we're coming at it very much from the point of view of, your performance at work and how you relate to others at work. And this fundamentally underpins a lot of how you, how you're doing and what you're talking about, Rachel, is always how do you get yourself in the, the right space to be able to, if you like, be the best version of yourself and perform as well as you possibly can. But, but equally, they, they apply to your personal life and your, your relationships. And so there's not the tools that you're talking about These are all really useful things in, in everyday life, aren't they?

Rachael:

Absolutely, and this is why I'm so passionate about it because I will often end up start working work with somebody or a team of people around these things from a work context, but it absolutely applies in every area of life and it is life changing for so many people because we said this right at the top of the last episode, which is What is life? If it isn't our experiences, our experiences and how we feel, that is what, that is what makes up so much of our life. You've got a good quality life if you've got emotions that you want to feel.

Jimmy:

And, and if you were to summarize, in, in kind of 30 seconds, your, the, the, the stuff on emotions, what are the, what are the key takeouts that you'd, I recommend to people in terms of things that they can do now.

Rachael:

So recognizing and remembering that our emotions are normally an external trigger. Something's happened and it's a signal, to tell us that something is up. So, don't just try and brush it aside or ignore it. Try and work out, okay, what is this? Can I first of all resolve it? Can I speak to someone? Or can I fix the issue if it's a situation? And if you can't, then look at how you might resolve it. So, what's the meaning that you've chosen to attach to the event? Is that helping you feel in a resourceful way about that situation? Or is there a more empowering meaning that you could choose? And remember that at any moment in time, every single second of every day, we are making those choices as to how to move our body physically, where to put our focus, and the language to use. And those three things are all impacting how we feel every moment of every day.

James:

And so how should we practice this then? Because it's easier said than done, I think. Yeah.

Rachael:

It is. So, and I guess one of the, one of the analogies that I would use is I would practice it on the little things in life. So, when you wake up in the morning and it's a little series of things that go wrong as you're getting ready to go to work, so perhaps the clothes that you were going to wear haven't been washed or ironed or something like that, and you start to run a little bit late, you start to feel that stress. build up that tension. You can hear that voice going on in your head, your body's getting a little bit tense. He is an ideal opportunity for you to practice almost like if you're in the gym, these are like the dumbbells, like the little baby weights that we can start practicing on every single day. I had this happen to me a while ago and I went to get my toothbrush out of the bathroom cabinet. And the battery had died. And I was like, Oh God. And I stopped and I just, and in that moment, I just felt my body go tense, get all like enraged about it. And I was like, what am I doing? And I just took a breath and I was like, what can I be grateful for? There's another toothbrush here, my husband's toothbrush, electric toothbrush, and he always keeps his charged up, so pull it out of my mouth, put the other one, put it, put it in, and then carry on going. So these are the little dumbbells, practice on these things, the, the, the car thing, where somebody driving irresponsibly on the road around us, practice it on these little things, because there's something that I know about life that we all know about life, and that is that problems will come. And when those bigger problems come, it's going to be like bench pressing. But if we've been doing the practice on the dumbbells, when the bench press comes We'll be able to make these choices so much more easily

James:

and if we want to learn more, where should we go looking?

Rachael:

Well, a lot of what I've shared with you today has been from the work of Professor Chris Beattie and the team at CHX Performance, who I partner with. So if you are interested and would like to learn more, if we can please put some links to in this, to the

James:

Absolutely. Yeah, we will on the website.

Jimmy:

Absolutely. Well, thank you, Rachel. You've been incredibly generous with, with your time. I know people get a whole load out of both the episode on moods and emotions. And there's so, such an important subject, and often not one that we consider often enough in terms of improving our performance at work. So thank you. For your insights.

James:

Thank you very much.

Rachael:

It's been my pleasure. Thank you.

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well. Easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck, if your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver, we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance or your organization's, get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. com or james at jobdonewell. com.

People on this episode

Head Shot

James Lawther

Co-host
Head Shot

Jimmy Barber

Co-host
Head Shot

Rachael Edmondson-Clarke

Guest