A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Developing Capable People – There Is More to It Than Training

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Amanda Gilbert • Season 2 • Episode 11

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This week, Amanda Gilbert joins us to share insights into how you can build people's capability - yours, your teams, or your organisation. Avoid some common pitfalls and follow critical steps to improve capability and results.

This podcast follows the recent episode where James shared a magic bullet for improving performance: building your systems' capability. People are critical to any system, so check out Amanda's advice.

We also discuss the challenges of buying and maintaining cars, and James improves his productivity by listening to podcasts on double speed—perfect if you're a fan of the Smurfs!

To find out more, contact Jimmy, James or Amanda.

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, a podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James and Amanda:

Good afternoon, how are you doing?

Jimmy:

Alright, I'm doing well. How are you doing

James and Amanda:

I'm doing fabulously, thank you. I have got the delightful Amanda sitting next to me. So my day is going very well.

Jimmy:

Welcome Amanda.

James and Amanda:

Thank you, nice to be back.

Jimmy:

Today we are following up last week's episode where we talked about James's magic bullet of building capability and how that can yield benefits in any and every situation virtually. And Today we thought we would explore building people's capability we have our resident learning and development guru to help us with that. So Amanda's going to talk us through how we should think about building people's capability, something that I know touches many of our lives as we try and improve our performance at work. So James, what have you been up to recently?

James and Amanda:

Well, the most interesting thing I've done recently is to get ahead of the game on this particular episode. I listened to the last episode, on double speed, and it's amazing.

Jimmy:

Are we twice as effective? We're

James and Amanda:

twice as effective, and we sound like Smurfs. We are the management Smurfs. So if anybody's listening to this, you skip forward double speed, it's all going. Thanks for

Jimmy:

Well, save Smurf experience for free. Well, since the last episode, I have been focused on trying to fix the wheels of my car. It's a leased car and it's going back soon. And due to my high skilled driving, I have managed to scuff the alloys on all four sides. So before I take it back, I need

James and Amanda:

Yeah, you'd think all alloys get scuffed on cars, don't they? Because mine, they're dreadful.

Jimmy:

Well, funny enough, I looked up on their wear and tear guidelines. I'm allowed five centimeters of scuffs in total on any wheel. So I went and looked at my wheels to see, could I get away with it? And the first wheel had a scuff. Five centimeters that were clearer scuffs. So I feel I have to get something done about

James and Amanda:

What's the consequence when you're,

Jimmy:

did you say? Well, what happens is they'll take the car back and they'll send you a bill. Okay. For a fortune

James and Amanda:

Is this why, where I live, every clown parks on the flipping pavement? Because they're all leased cars and they don't want to scuff the wheels.

Jimmy:

quite probably

James and Amanda:

Oh. Yeah, what falls its place. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Anyway,

Jimmy:

Amanda, welcome. What have you been up to since you were last with us?

James and Amanda:

Well, interestingly, actually trying to sell a car at

Jimmy:

one point.

James and Amanda:

And using one of those, well, actually getting quotes from several of those websites where they promise to buy that Your car from you. Yeah. Any car apparently. And they quote you a

Jimmy:

We rip you off from any car. I think they're

James and Amanda:

to price. And you go in thinking, oh, that's not too bad. Yes, I'll take that deal. And then you get there and then. Someone inspects your car and

Jimmy:

knocks you down

James and Amanda:

like drastically so that was just a whole joy in a new world that I've not been involved in before. In the past, we've sort of traded our car in against another, but this whole experience was

Jimmy:

experience was disappointing. But that is their business model. That is how they do it.

James and Amanda:

Sure do. Right, so, let's move on. We are going to talk about people capability

Jimmy:

Just to recap, last week we shared the details of a magic bullet, if you like, to solving many organizations problems. And that's building capability. And true to form, when we talked about building capability James talked about building the system's capability. So looking at everything from the technology to the processes to the environment, you name it, it's included. And I talked about building people's capability.

James and Amanda:

But then we decided you didn't know what we were talking about, so we've invited Amanda. Exactly.

Jimmy:

We, we realized that building people's capabilities is easier said than done, and Amanda has Many years, of experience of doing this. So we thought we'd get along to share some of the ways of thinking about this that will help you build the capability that you need in your, well, either yourself or in your team or in your unit or organization.

James and Amanda:

Hang on. Isn't this really simple?

Jimmy:

Go on then.

James and Amanda:

Tell us more. Well,

Jimmy:

it.

James and Amanda:

if you want some capability in your people, you send them on a training course, don't you? I mean, how difficult can it be? Yeah. Do you know what? That's not an unusual start position. I'm going to tell you, many people start there. And All of my years, being a learning and development consultant very often, the starting point for the conversation is, I need this particular training course, or I need a two hour session with, or I need a computer based training. So the start point for the conversation

Jimmy:

for

James and Amanda:

is almost inevitably the solution or pointing towards a solution. But the customers are always right, you know. Yeah. Oh yeah.

Jimmy:

know. And there is the curse of senior leaders throughout the world, they start with a solution in mind. So whether it is building capability or building the systems capability they always come and I know because I've been guilty of doing it myself, is can I have a training course? Can I have a new system? Whatever it is, start with a solution in mind. And that almost always hamstrings your ability to get the best solution and therefore the best outcome. So how would you suggest we start? So for

James and Amanda:

me the conversation, and you know, let's be forgiving of this, why not? You might well start. If you're thinking about people capability you might start with, I need some training. Really the start point for the conversation for me is, what's the problem you're trying to solve? What is it you're actually trying to do?

Jimmy:

I

James and Amanda:

the business problem. So my business problem might be, for example, I don't know, my customer service has gone to hell in a handcart.

Jimmy:

hell in a

James and Amanda:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there might well be that. Right, but then

Jimmy:

So that's a better starting point than I want a training course, yeah?

James and Amanda:

the outcome that you're actually trying to drive in your organisation. Because that leads you then to a number of options, as we know. But if we focus on the people options here Well, no, hang on, so But those options could be, yeah, technology solution, it could be a process solution, could be a change in policy, yeah, and it might be both as well. Yeah, and or, yeah, yeah, and, and. It would be

Jimmy:

Invariably, on something as broad as that, it There is never one solution. So let's just for the sake of this discussion, let's assume we have done or are doing those other things for those other system capabilities. And therefore we do know that we need to build greater capability in our people to help with the outcome of improving customer service. There's a

James and Amanda:

there's a new skill, capability, knowledge that you need within your organisation that marries with anything else that you're going to change and driving towards a particular outcome. Yeah. Then you've got some options, quite frankly. So, people often say, Again, often start with training, but actually when you think about your people capabilities there are a number of routes that you could go down. For example, you could outsource for that capability. If you're talking organizational level, you might find that capability outside of your own organization. Buy it in. And when would you want to do that? What would be a good example of doing that?

Jimmy:

Well, I think when you've got the situation that you've either got to grow very quickly or you know, there's organizations that can provide that at a, cheaper price. They're often some of the things that people think about outsourcing being a good option.

James and Amanda:

Yeah, so I suppose a good example, a niche example, would be payroll.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James and Amanda:

Yeah, you probably wouldn't want to train people in payroll skills, you'd just outsource it in Hampton. Yeah,

Jimmy:

you can outsource on volume or outsource on skills. So I don't think I can build, teams of web developers. So rather than try and build lots of capabilities around that, I outsource that capability.

James and Amanda:

What else? Another option might be that you need to hire in this skill. So rather than teach it within your organisation, actually, you need to hire someone for this skillset. Yeah, okay, same question. When would I want to do that rather than training? Well, I

Jimmy:

Well, I think you've, you've probably, well, both of us have been hired at times for the skill and knowledge, believe it or not.

James and Amanda:

the structure and whatnot. Yeah, you can always fool some people. Yeah, but I think that's the point, isn't it? So if it is a, what, a fairly niche skill, not something that you want in depth across your organisation, a specific points problem, then hiring might be a better

Jimmy:

And it can be individuals or it can be temporary. So do you need extra resource temporarily or do you need, you've got a project that you only have to have for some of the time so you don't actually want to skill a load of people up to manage a project that's a one off project, do you?

James and Amanda:

Yeah. And I think temps is a very good point actually. if you have got a time bound problem you need to fix. Employing temps or contractors may well be the best way to do that. Yeah. And some of those things, actually, as we're thinking about it, can be a bridge to.

Jimmy:

your

James and Amanda:

state. So you might have temps to fill a gap now whilst you think about doing some upskilling.

Jimmy:

modelling.

James and Amanda:

Or you might recruit someone in or contract someone in to do a project for you. So let's say you were doing something like agile transformation in your organization. You might want to bring in some coaches as people within your organization are developing the skill. You actually have that kind of higher level mastery almost running alongside. Whilst you make that transition. Does that make sense?

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Jimmy:

So you've got. Recruitment. You've got outsourcing. Yeah. But when is it most appropriate to build the skill, the capability internally in your organization?

James and Amanda:

a decision you're going to make for the organisation but you might say this is a skill set that we need more broadly in the organisation for a sustainable period of time or maybe into the future. So actually it's worth us investing now in retaining the talent that we have and adding more skills.

Jimmy:

I suppose also because

James and Amanda:

remember there's a lot of investment you've made already in your current employee base. So

Jimmy:

if you've got a large organization you've got some skill at scale you wouldn't want to necessarily build from the ground up you might be upskilling your current workforce. Similarly If something is core to you, like, for example, in insurance companies, you know, underwriting. So they would believe underwriting was core for them, yeah, you might hire in underwriters, but often you'll also want to invest quite heavily in that core skill and building that core skill internally.

James and Amanda:

Well, and you're investing, aren't you? So you're investing in what is critical to your business. Yeah.

Jimmy:

And you think of it, and interestingly enough, you think of building capability as an investment as opposed to, yeah, I'm buying something which is more of a, a commodity that you're buying. Yeah. And I

James and Amanda:

And I think there's the, there's this, the associated, and we can talk about benefits in a bit more detail in a while, but of upskilling your people because you maybe want to do it a particular way. so on when I got for uni my first graduate job, they were very clear about they wanted things doing a certain way. It was part of their organization. It was inherent within their culture and within their processes. And so they brought a huge number of people through and trained them. I was given a huge amount of training, but it was important to them that they That you did it the Unilever way. And that's what I mean. If you've got, you feel like you've got a particular way so we're clear then that our need is to train. Yeah. Yeah, but where do I go with that next then? Okay, and so that's interesting. You know what, the steps to this are quite logical, I think. But really what you're going to start with is where am I going to get to? So a little bit of analysis around what, what is the skill? What does it actually look like when it's happening? In the way that I want it to be happening. Around the task or the competence. What's the skill? Where do I want to get to? And then let's take a look at what have I got already? What is this person capable of doing right now? And what you're driving for is what's the gap? What's the bit that's missing in between? When you understand the difference, what you're designing for then is the intervention that closes that gap. That helps them to move from the current state, where I am right now, to the set of skills that I will need into the future.

Jimmy:

Okay,

James and Amanda:

got that. So, and that makes a lot of sense because if you're not clear about what you're trying to achieve, you won't do it. It's kind of like linked to the purpose stuff that you

Jimmy:

to the purpose. And The way you've described it, that must apply if I am, James's example of, we need to improve customer service in this organization. But equally, it would apply if I'm a frontline manager, and I want to improve the performance of my team, or if I'm an individual.

James and Amanda:

that just

Jimmy:

needs to improve their performance, that same process of where do I want to get to? Where am I now? What's the gap? What's the solution? You can follow that process, can't you? In a whole range of

James and Amanda:

Yeah, absolutely you can. I mean, when we're talking about FLM and our manager population, really what we're Asking them to do is help their team to build development action as well. Sorry I fell in. Frontline management. I'm so sorry. Yeah. So it's, it's about your development action plan.

Jimmy:

I would imagine it can be top performers that want to get even better.

James and Amanda:

Yes, please. Let's not make this remedial.

Jimmy:

Or it could be an underperformer on a performance plan. But following the same process will get you the best interventions that you can possibly get. Yeah.

James and Amanda:

right thing I would urge is investing the time in thinking about what that needs to look

Jimmy:

look like. But again, without doing, the solution is, I need training on X. It's actually, what's the gap, what's the, really understanding it well enough that you can get the intervention that really helps this person. And from the conversations we've had, the interventions are not just training courses.

James and Amanda:

Not just training courses. There are a range of things we could do. So other than just training, what else could I do? Yeah, well so this requires maybe a little bit of creative thinking, but actually sometimes these opportunities are available within your organization and readily available within your team so some work shadowing for example maybe you have an employee that's doing this job already and someone that wants to you want to teach that skill you want to reskill to be able to actually perform that job now or in the future actually spend some time just watching and observing how someone else is doing it. if you're doing some job shadowing, you've actually gone through that activity as the person being developed, what's the conversation that you then have with your manager about, okay, what did you learn? What else? What do we need to add to that? So rather than it being one solution, that's it,

Jimmy:

it.

James and Amanda:

Actually, maybe you would couple your work shadowing now with some coaching or a teach to learn exercise. So I've now learned to do this task. I'm going to teach someone else. And by that, what I'm trying to describe there is you're continuing to layer the capability. actually you're making an intervention that adds richness, breadth and depth. Do you see what I mean? It's lazy management and lazy development to just do one thing, tick in the box. That's it. Our people are now capable.

Jimmy:

But I think that's why often people are, are attracted towards training courses because it's almost

James and Amanda:

like Once

Jimmy:

yeah, just go and send them on a training course, sorts, sorts these things out. And actually, some of these things you're now starting to talk about are, they're, they're cheaper, they're much more accessible and often they're more effective. I mean, that, that last one you mentioned, going. getting somebody to teach the

James and Amanda:

skill up. Yeah.

Jimmy:

That's, wasn't it that's one of Covey's isn't it? Yeah. And it's hugely effective when you actually practice that. Because it really does test out, have you really learned this?

James and Amanda:

Well. That's a top tip for anyone listening. In all seriousness now, that's, I, I think, I don't know, Watch something on the television tonight. Have a conversation with someone and then do the exercise for yourself of going away and Explaining to someone else what you learned takes it from that that exercise Because it will take it uses a different part of your brain to be able to kind of explain it and teach it to someone else So we've talked about work shadowing. Yep.

Jimmy:

Yep.

James and Amanda:

We've talked about training other people. Yes. What else is there? Maybe you could work with a coach. Yeah. Or a mentor. So in that case, actually, someone's assigned alongside you to be able to explore what your current performance is and to help you create some plans and some strategies and some exercises Something I don't usually do, but actually I'm going to give you that task in order that you can learn this new skill set. So I'm urging managers and teams and organizations is to be intentional about this. Not just a project for the sake of project, but if it's a developmental project, what are you expecting me to get out of it? What skill am I expected to learn or do I want to learn and what project are you going to select in order that we can make sure that I do actually get exposure and an opportunity to grow that skill? And the other thing actually that we very often forget about is what skills and opportunities do people have outside of their working environment? So I might work in, I don't know, let's say I work in your call center for, you know, I'm doing a job. I'm handling customer calls, but I've always wanted to be a team leader. And one of the skills that you need from me is to be able to coach and support others. Well, what if outside of work, I'm actually coaching local football team how do you get to know your people well enough, if you're really thinking about their capability, to say, are there activities that they're doing outside of work, where actually they have skills that aren't exposed inside the work environment, but if we think about that creatively, we can apply

Jimmy:

in work? I'd imagine that's, that's a pretty powerful and, and unused opportunity because I don't think that individuals necessarily always think. The things I do outside of work, the skills I build outside work, using them in work. And often, managers don't know that much about their team members to help them identify. So having some of those open conversations and then working what's transferable, is a really great opportunity. Absolutely.

James and Amanda:

And what do you think about certification? By which I mean, how do you make sure that people did get the skills that you were hoping to get?

Jimmy:

to get? So,

James and Amanda:

There are a number of ways you can do that So if let's now let's go back to training courses very often at the end of a training course You will have a quiz or an assessment. Yes that actually tests that you've taken on board a particular subject knowledge piece. There'll be a quiz at the end, a knowledge quiz. Or observation. So I remember when I was being taught to deliver behavioral interview skills training, you've probably been through that training yourself. Actually, there was an assessor, at the end, who observed me run an interview, a bit like when you take your driving test actually. You've got someone alongside saying, here's the standard that we want this person to meet. How, are they, are they actually meeting that, that standard? Another,

Jimmy:

a another? Another good example back to the training course piece, but when you go back to the workplace, Does your manager ever talk to you about what have you learned, how are you going to put it into place? Because that was always another good way of ensuring that the learnings from whatever the intervention was, were put into place in the workplace. Because I think what we're talking about now is fundamental to seeing the benefits from any investment you make in building capability. Because unless you're sure, That, that skill has changed and is sustained over a period of time. Yeah. You're not gonna get any benefits from it. And if you're a good manager, that will be part of your process.

James and Amanda:

So what we're talking about is topping and tailing it. Doing that before you send someone on an intervention of any kind, not just courses, being really clear about what you want them to get out of this project, out of the shadowing, out of this coaching, and then tailing it. What happened? What did you learn? How will you apply it?

Jimmy:

And this is, really helpful conversation, Amanda, because I think, you know, that we tend to take a very simplistic view of building capability back to our first point, which is, can you just do me a training course on X? Whereas actually, when we got into the subject, there are options to what you actually do to build capability. So, if I do the sustainability stuff to make sure that, that I'm going to see the benefits. There's the obvious benefit of the improved performance, but presumably there are other benefits to investing in building capability as well.

James and Amanda:

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, your reputation as an employer is very Very often what features in your employee brand is your commitment to developing people, right? When you join an organization, very often what you're looking for is how will I be developed? How does my CV grow? Not just around the role, but what investment a community has made to Well, that's very interesting. If I rate the organizations I have worked for from best to worst, actually thinking about it, that's very closely linked to The amount they invested in me in training and development. And that's well known and understood. If you look at many of the kind of awards that employers are kind of, kind of sign up for. Things like great places to work. It's not the only thing that they look for, but one of the things they will definitely mind for, is You know, how much you invest in developing the skills of the people in your organisation as a criteria for whether or not this is a great place to work. Another thing is, regulators, customers should expect that you are, as a business, investing in the skilling and re skilling and up skilling, that continuous investment in the development of the people that are doing the work for them, right? So, let's think about it. If we said, like, I don't know, next month we're going to have, you need to have an operation, how do you fancy that surgeon who has not done any kind of training or development to make sure their skills are nice and, I was going to use the word sharp, maybe that's inappropriate in this conversation.

Jimmy:

trust me when I'm going to see a surgeon, I want some sharp

James and Amanda:

skills. You want someone who's got some sharp, but really some recent investment in latest technique, right? Yeah. You don't want someone who is

Jimmy:

been plodding

James and Amanda:

just been plodding along in the same old way.

Jimmy:

So, where does that get us? For me,

James and Amanda:

it starts with,

Jimmy:

please,

James and Amanda:

please, please, please try not to come with the solution in mind. If you want to have a conversation with your learning team,

Jimmy:

share with them

James and Amanda:

share with them what it is you're trying to achieve and then expect this exploration of what's the best route to deliver that. I

Jimmy:

I think you've been far too polite Amanda. It's not please, please, please. It is, if you want to get the best outcomes, don't come with a solution in mind.

James and Amanda:

Yeah, that's it. Much better said.

Jimmy:

No, just less polite. You've got a number of options when you decide you want to build capability. It isn't just about a training course. You can buy in the skills either through outsourcing or through recruitment.

James and Amanda:

Yeah. Listen to a great podcast.

Jimmy:

great podcast. Absolutely. You shared with us a really helpful process to follow in terms of thinking about what's the future state you want to get to, what's the current state, gap analysis, solution and then review. And then there is a whole range of activities that you can do to build people's capability. Isn't just about sending people on a training course. So you shared some of the different options that are maybe cheaper, more accessible, and probably more effective, and also some of the best practices in terms of sustaining that skill to make sure that you really see the benefits from a training course, or any intervention.

James and Amanda:

just requires a little bit of creativity,

Jimmy:

And most importantly, by doing it the way that you're suggesting, As well as seeing improved performance. So James's customer satisfaction issues will be sorted out. There are a range of other spin off benefits that you'll get as well.

James and Amanda:

as well.

Jimmy:

Thanks, Amanda. That was really very helpful. If people want to learn more, because it's not as simple as you found out in the last half an hour or so, and there's a lot more to it. If they want to know more about building their people's capability, get in touch.

James and Amanda:

Yeah, get in touch. So, you'll find me on LinkedIn and you can, I hope, reach me through you. Yeah, it's all on the show notes. Great. Absolutely.

Jimmy:

All right. Thank you again, Amanda.

James and Amanda:

My pleasure. Been great fun. Thank you.

Jimmy:

Thanks everyone.

James and Amanda:

Cheers, now. Bye.

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver, we can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations. Get in touch at Jimmy at jobdonewell. com or James at jobdonewell. com.

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James Lawther

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Jimmy Barber

Co-host