A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Do You Need Therapy? – Part 2

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Dawn Wray • Season 2 • Episode 14

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This week is the second part of our conversation with Gestalt Therapist Dawn Wray.

Dawn explains the "five explorations", questions that will help you deepen your understanding of yourself and improve your relationships with the world around you. She also shows how your past can affect your future.

If you are 'curious' and want to learn more about the subject, please contact Dawn at the Listening Collective.

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

Jimmy:

This is part two of the, saga with Dawn Ray. So if you haven't listened to last week's episode, you should really go back and listen to that first. Otherwise this one might not make complete sense to you. So have a listen to last week's and here we go.

Dawn:

So the five things. Explorations, as you call them. They are five things that would be incredibly useful for anyone in relationships or work or whatever to understand a bit more about. So let's, let's explore them a bit further then. What's the first one? The first one is self recognizing. So how well do you know yourself? How often do you stop to wonder about why you respond in a certain way?

James:

And that's quite interesting because quite often you just respond again and think about if I wanted to recognize myself better What sort of things should be thinking about?

Dawn:

How would you know that you were irritated with somebody and what would you do about it? How often do you

James:

thought you're gonna say? How would I know if I was irritating somebody?

Jimmy:

He's talking and breathing

Dawn:

How, how would you recognize when you are saying one thing and holding back another response? Have you ever been in a meeting where you're saying all the right things and taking part in the meeting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas you're thinking. And actually inside you're going, for fuck's sake.

Jimmy:

Oh yeah, yeah.

Dawn:

Like how, how do you learn to recognize when you're doing that? Yeah. And bring some of what you're actually thinking and feeling forward in a Helpful where? How would you know that your background is affecting your foreground? Yeah. I was brought up in a northern working class environment. That colours how I see my world and what I might expect from you. Yeah. Or how I might perceive you. Yeah. And you might not be that, but because my background looks like that, that's how I see the world.

James:

Okay, and it's so, and you can play that through to stereotypes and God knows what else. All of it.

Jimmy:

I think one of the challenges is we don't spend that much time reflecting about those things. So your example about how does my background impact my foreground, quite often you just don't put the time or energy into thinking about that. And therefore you don't ever explore that fully and understand that. So even if it's not, here's an easy answer, I'm actually just thinking about your behavior and your feelings versus your actions are all useful things to think about and do. All right,

James:

so there's the first. What next?

Dawn:

How do we meet the world? Go on, what do you mean by that? So when you, you have a conversation with somebody, when we, you know, meet now, how do you, how do you expect to be met? How do you meet difference? How, like, if you meet somebody who has a different perspective or a different role or a different world view? And how do you enter into that conversation? Empathically, with feeling, with genuine curiosity for what might be going on for the other person and meet somewhere in the middle?

James:

Okay, as opposed to it's obviously talking rubbish and just Discounting somebody.

Dawn:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

And we talked in a previous episode about what's called the ticking model. What's going on for the other person? Yeah. As opposed to I'm dealing with the interaction that we're having right now and it being about me. Yeah. Your behavior. Actually I don't understand whether you had a difficult journey over here. Whether you're worrying about certain things. What's going on for you that is shaping your behavior versus I think you're behaving in a certain way and that's all about me. So just spending a bit of time thinking about Why are you showing up the way that you are and what's going on for you? That's causing that. Yeah

James:

Well, but then that's really powerful as well, isn't it? So coming back to the recent election just because it's interesting talking point I'm sitting here thinking you voted for somebody who lies every time he takes a breath. What is wrong with you people? I have just instantly dismissed the whatever it was, 80 million people who voted for him. Yes. Yeah, whereas actually there would be a very good reason why they voted for them, but unless I ask them and I'm interested in finding out, um, end of conversation, it's game over, isn't it?

Dawn:

Yeah. Yeah, a conversation I have a lot in my work is, actually I would encourage everyone to have more conflict. How robust are your conversations? How willing to take a risk and speak your truth or inquire from the other person and actually enter into the conversation that needs to be had, not the conversation that we're having in our private world.

Jimmy:

But, actually, we see real negative connotations with conflict. As opposed to, conflict can drive progress and resolution. Yeah. And deepen relationships.

James:

Yeah. Whereas if you don't have the conflict and understand what is going on, you won't ever get the resolution.

Jimmy:

Exactly. You get stuck in the status quo.

Dawn:

And you don't get changed. So in the process of a really robust, honest conversation where you can meet in the middle, that's not me or you, but it's just the thing we're talking about in the middle, then there's an opportunity for me to take away a different worldview, not the same one I came in with. Yeah. Absolutely. And,

James:

well, yeah, sorry, that's rather mundane, but one of my favourite things, oh, this is one of mine. Wait. Wait stands for why am I talking? But when you're in a meeting, just, yeah, wait. Because I know what I think is what you think that's really important, because I won't learn anything more by telling you what I think. All right, so there's that one. How do I relate to other people? What's the third one?

Dawn:

How do we stay present and actually respond to the situation that we're in? So let's use this as an example. Like, I'm a bit nervous coming here talking to you guys. Are you? It's pretty cold in here.

James:

It is bloody cold in here.

Jimmy:

So I'll put the heat on

James:

Jimmy's office is more, it could be described as a barn or a shed, couldn't it? It's, oh, there you go.

Dawn:

Poshest barn I've ever been in.

James:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's bloody cold. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dawn:

That's a good example. I could have said nothing, but now, now you've put me some heat on. So how do we actually respond to the situation that we're in? Yeah. So if we're in a room and there's a kerfuffle going on in the next room, that is all having an impact on how we actually are in that moment. Yeah. And how are we actually paying attention to the situation that we're in, in order that we can maybe do something about it? Or do we just carry on regardless? Yeah. A work example to bring it to life would be, uh, someone I was working with who was stepping into a new job and had certain ways of thinking about homeworking. But she'd stepped into a team and a situation where the previous boss had a completely different view. Like he didn't really mind, didn't need things put in in diaries, he was a bit more laissez faire with all of that stuff. And she was blaming herself for the need for having a specific way of working from home and that people might not like it and how things were going. But actually the situation that she was in was people were still working from home a hundred percent of the time. Her organization had mandated that. If she tuned into the situation she would have done different things.

James:

So that's just about being explicit about what the situation is.

Dawn:

Yeah I was in a workshop the other day and somebody was doing a really quiet exercise. And a band fired up outside and were playing, um, My Chemical Romance as loud as you can be. Now the person taking the session could choose to ignore that and try and carry on as they were, but you couldn't ignore it. Yeah, there's something about paying attention to physically whether it's hot or cold in here where I'm sitting, what might be happening politically in the world will be changing kind of what's happening at the moment. But how often do we stop to think about physically what's around us, what is in the world around us and how that how that might be affecting what's going on now. But I think in work we don't always tune in to actually just take a minute. How am I responding to. Literally what's going on.

Jimmy:

We're too busy responding.

Dawn:

We're too busy talking and doing and actually sometimes stopping and just responding to the situation that we're in might be.

Jimmy:

Which is goes back to James's point about wait why am I talking? Because actually you jump straight in just think a little bit about what's going on, who's there, what the situation is, what the context is.

James:

I bet I told you about the coursewanker. No. Right, you know, you know when you go on a course, a business course, and they're like, they usually have a big U shaped table, don't they? And you're all sitting around the U shaped table, and somebody comes in and presents. Yeah, and there's always a coursewanker. Always. Yeah, so the way you tell is, if somebody stilts in the first 30 minutes, that's the coursewanker. But if nobody does, then it's you. And that's why you'll see me in courses with blood coming out the side of my mouth, and busy biting my tongue, yeah.

Jimmy:

Don't speak in the first 30 minutes. God, if I get past the first 30 seconds. Is that alright? I'm a real course wanker. Although I always thought you could tell the course wanker because it was, when you finish, you know, like, you just need to get out of the room, and then they say any more questions? I want to put, put the lights out on the person who then puts their hand up and starts asking the questions.

James:

So that is how we respond to situations. Anyway, don't be the course wanker. Don't be the course wanker. But this is deep, this isn't it? You're learning things, admit it.

Dawn:

Yeah, they'd be lacking in funnies. Am I being a bit serious?

Jimmy:

Don't worry, we'll make up for that. We'll find jokes that we find funny, ourselves.

James:

Anyway, fourth one. How might you try something different? So I'm doing it today. I was told yesterday that I was brave for doing this. Yeah? Because speaking up like this is not my comfort place. Yeah, okay. Okay. I'm experimenting with giving it a bash. Yeah. So as you're doing things habitually, in the same meetings, doing the same things, what would happen if you stopped for a second and said, what might I change here? If I experimented with doing this differently, in some way, whatever that way might be, what might a different outcome look like?

Jimmy:

It's like one of our sayings, if you do what you've always done, you'll get what you've always got. Yeah.

James:

But that ties back to your point about systems thinking as well actually, it's just about run a test, see what happens. Yeah. Yeah, because you don't know all the answers.

Dawn:

Quite often on an individual level what this can go hand in hand with is what support's available to do that, and in business that happens a lot. So I, I want to speak up, I want to disagree, I want to put my idea forward, but when you explore why you don't do that, what goes on at the end, what stops you. The supports aren't there. Yeah, so your boss might not be supportive. You might have an old script that says you shouldn't do that Yeah, sometimes it goes hand in hand with what support is available to try something new. I Think when we talk about culture and team culture and how things get done at work I think we often miss sometimes the environment the conditions don't support someone to try new stuff

Jimmy:

one of the things that Often can hold us back from trying new stuff is the consequence that we think in our heads is going to happen. Sometimes if you just lean into some of the things that you find difficult or you don't like or whatever, you realise the consequence that you thought was going to happen doesn't happen.

Dawn:

And sometimes the support isn't external. By support I don't mean external support, it can be internal support. What would support you to, like what supported me to come here isn't necessarily an external thing, it's an internal thing. Yes. It's my self talk, it's my, you know, what I believe in. It's how I can be comfortable with, actually no, I do do this, I'm good at what I do. I can do this,

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James:

And then the final one.

Dawn:

It's called embodiment. Embodiment, go on. How do you not just think and rely solely on cognition and rationale? And actually tune in to your whole body. Are you tense? Are you sweating? Are you fiddling? Is your breath shallow? Like your body will be giving you clues to what's going on. But we, we very rarely stop to actually think about our physical presence. If I'm working with somebody who's anxious, for example, which comes up quite a lot. Sometimes actually being aware of our physical body, right from your toes to your head, can be really grounding and supportive.

James:

Well, and that's interesting in that if you are looking at somebody, if you're sitting watching, it's blindingly obvious if somebody's anxious. You can see it by the, yeah, we pick it up. It's second nature to us, whereas understanding that yourself, not nearly so obvious, to your point.

Jimmy:

So it's part of this, um, body language as well, so.

Dawn:

Can be. That's the surface level would be body language. Yeah.

Jimmy:

Only because I was thinking that quite often you'll get told something that you're portraying to Jane's point. You, you see, I'm feeling or you think I'm behaving in a certain way when actually I'm, I'm feeling different. I remember getting some feedback of how I showed up in board meetings and where, whether I agreed with someone or I was listening with someone or I disagreed with them and they fed back to me about my body language and I'd realized that there, there wasn't a congruence between my body language and how I was actually feeling and thinking at the time, right? And that helped me, right? Think, okay, so if I'm. interested in someone's point here's how I can physically show that so here's how I can use my body to get across my feelings as opposed to I agree with you but I'm looking like I don't yeah that's causing you a problem

Dawn:

yeah body language would be the surface level of it yes and and there's a relationship between your psychological self and your physiological self so your brain can tell your body to do things like you've just described But it can work the other way around as well. Your, your body, if you change how you sit, if you move, that can have a So there's something about a felt, a felt sense through all of your senses.

James:

Well, and that, that's that Amy Cuddy thing, isn't it? Fake it until you make it. Have you seen that? it's exactly your point. So, if you smile, it makes you happy. Yeah, if you frown, it makes you sad. And her point is, To be successful you stand up and look like you're successful because if you stand and you're bold then you're more likely to be bold But mind and body are connected. Yeah, so those are the five things How do we round all of that up?

Dawn:

I think for me It's do you know you've seen the pictures where there's two? Faces looking at each other and you can either see the faces or you can see the vows. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah the old woman Yeah So that's, that's a Gestalt concept called the figure and ground. So all, everything, if we, you've been talking about it like background is in your foreground. Like everything that came before is in your foreground. And therefore a better understanding of yourself then means you know what's figure. Whether you're looking at the old woman or the young woman. Like you can see the thing that's important to see. I think as leaders and managers in organizations, you have a disproportionate effect on the culture. Yeah. You have more power. Yeah. You have more influence. And so if our leaders are. More aware of themselves, of the situations of the people in their teams of what's going on in that organization and can stop and sift through all of that crap and see the vase. Yeah. That's got to be a better place to be because then we're making decisions. Won't make the same decisions, but we're making them based on a wider body of knowledge.

Jimmy:

Yeah, you have choices effect. And I guess there's then the fact that you've got more options. about how you choose to see things in the world. It gives you, at the end of the day, better choices in how you're going to behave, doesn't it?

Dawn:

It comes back to complexity and simplicity. Yeah. I think. Like, can you hold the complexity and see the complexity that this discussion's brought up? Yeah. And can you then at the same time, make it simple. Can you see the thing that needs to be done? And if by holding those two things at the same time, I think we flow better at work, we have more fun at work. We make, we enjoy work more because you're not only at one or the other, you're able to hold both, but sometimes it's a skill. It's a practice skill to be in some of this more deeper kind of personal stuff. And then to be able to come up out of it and then do the thing you need to do. Yeah,

Jimmy:

well, I think one of the things, one of the challenges I see with it in part, is the challenge I've had personally, is you, you can look at the complexity all of that backstory, beliefs, all of that sort of stuff, and it's hugely complicated. But you can simplify it down to the point where you're saying, okay, I can't change everything in my life right now. But I can make some positive change, so I'm going to break it down into a small piece. So what I'm going to worry about this week is I'm going to pay more awareness to what I'm saying in meetings, how other people are reacting to me saying something. That's what I'm going to do for this week. And so you can break it down so you feel like, actually I'm making progress on the things that I want to change, but I'm doing it in bits rather than. Actually, the whole thing is too complicated for me to deal with. So it's like the, you know, the, the bit that we were talking earlier, James, about why don't you want to do this particular thing? Well, that could be a massive load of stuff, but how do you start to break it down to build, well, actually I've just got some more understanding of it. First point is, like, I'm aware of it. Okay, that's good. You know what I mean? I haven't solved the problem, necessarily. But I'm aware of it.

Dawn:

Or how do you get curious? Like, James, you're curious about what it is that makes it hard for you to go out and sell yourself. Sorry, I am. You are? Yes.

Jimmy:

Rather than I'm just not going to pay any mind to it. Because a lot of the time, the stuff that's difficult, whatever it is, we just, like, bury. Just bury under the carpet.

Dawn:

Or I'm never any good at that, or I'll never be any good at that, or But if you're curious about wanting something to be different, a lot of it comes down to change. If you want something to be different, then be curious about it. And these are just ways of being curious and exploring and trying to be better.

Jimmy:

So the five things that we touched on, the flight explorations, just being curious about them and thinking a bit about them and what they mean to you, that's just a start, isn't it?

Dawn:

Yeah. And then it's, they, they are literally that just to start. Yeah. Because once you're tuned into them, then, then you're off, then you're, curious.

Jimmy:

One final question Dawn, so it's been really interesting talking about the ways you can think about things and how that really helps you, but in practical terms the business people you work with, the leaders you work with, what are the sort of tangible problems they come to you with? What drives them to you?

Dawn:

I think Many, many things, but common things are, um, imposter syndrome. Right. Speaking up and having confidence in presentations or board meetings. Yeah. Or having a voice in those sorts of forums and being promoted generally. What it's like to be promoted. Life things happening. Yeah. So people having, kids, parents, It's work, stress, anxiety because of life, feeling just really, really stressful.

Jimmy:

And the impact, the impact that then has on you, your work.

Dawn:

Yeah. The impact on work. Yeah. Or actually just generally I'm stressed. I'm anxious. Yeah. Can't deal with it. Changing careers often.

Jimmy:

Okay.

Dawn:

Redundancy comes up quite a lot. And in that is people's sense of self worth and self esteem and how you don't feel good enough.

Jimmy:

And it's an interesting set of topics because I would bet that anyone listening to this could play bingo with those and they would tick a number if not all of them, at some point in your lives. So it's, I mean, that's really helpful because it helps bring to life practically how this is useful for people.

Dawn:

And a deeper look at practical things.

Jimmy:

Yes. So it's not a superficial, simple solution. No. But in fairness, those topics that we all go through, the answer is never going to be a simple solution, is it?

James:

If I want to find out more, is there anywhere I could look if you've whetted my appetite? Yeah. What sort of things?

Dawn:

So you could look on Whole Intelligence website. Yeah. Wholeintelligence. org. Um, Malcolm's written a book called Future Sense. Which I would highly recommend. And explains how it works. You could have a look at my website, Glistening Collective, which isn't, doesn't reference whole intelligence, but it's similar sort of stuff. Super.

Jimmy:

And, obviously, if somebody wants to talk a bit more about it and get in touch with you, we can put your details in the show notes.

Dawn:

Absolutely they can.

Jimmy:

Hopefully you guys have enjoyed that episode. Thanks. A lot to go through, but really fascinating subject, so thank you, Dawn, for coming and sharing so articulately and interestingly that, that subject, and as we say, there's some opportunities to find out more, explore more, be curious about it, and get in touch with Dawn, and, uh, don't get in touch with James and I, because clearly from this conversation, you can tell, we don't know what we're talking about on this. Lovely, thank you very much. Thanks, Dawn. Thanks, everyone. Cheers, now.

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver, we can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations. Get in touch at Jimmy at jobdonewell. com or James at jobdonewell. com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Dawn Wray

Guest