A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

How to Succeed in Your Career

• Jimmy Barber and James Lawther • Season 2 • Episode 15

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Free advice from two old men, but is it any good?

This week, we explore 'how to manage your career' - a subject often discussed, rarely taught, and where perfect answers don't exist. We have both had decades of experience—good and bad—trying to make the most of our careers. So, we thought we would share some of the dilemmas we faced and the insights we have gained.

If our expertise isn't enough, maybe Baz Luhrmann's advice from a classic 90s song will be an adequate substitute.

You'll also hear about our recent experiences at Christmas markets and how to negotiate with cranky Immigration Officers!

If you want more (and why wouldn't you?), let us know by contacting James Lawther or Jimmy Barber.

James:

Good afternoon. How are you doing?

Jimmy:

I'm doing well. How are you, Jake?

James:

I'm doing fabulously. Thank you very much. are we going to talk about this afternoon

Jimmy:

then? then? We are going to talk about managing your career, so we thought we would address some of the dilemmas and share some of the lessons learned. Now there's no simple answers, but we have some perspectives that you might find come, have scum to kill, so it might be

James:

their own, each to their own. I had just come back from, from Vienna and, I went over, funny enough, they almost didn't let me out. I, we got to the, uh, the, um, thought they used some sort of illegal

Jimmy:

no, no, we were queuing up to go out, out of passport control little man in his box with, and he's, he's our age and some right with young girl serving at the next counter and we, he's taking twice as long as everyone else in every kiosk because he's busy chatting up this young girl the whole time. Anyhow, we get to the front of the queue. and he looks at my thing. And he's looking again and again. He's there for a good couple of minutes. And then he's, uh, We have a problem! It's like, yeah, clearly, I've got a way to catch. And that, he looks through, and he's um, When did you go to Spain? So I went to Ibiza in, whenever. You haven't got a stamp on the way out. And if you come out the Schengen area, you have to have a stamp. If you go back in, they won't let you out again. So he was threatened not to let me out., so he was going to hold me hostage in, Vienna. Now I liked Vienna a lot, but I didn't actually want to

James:

how does that work out with Brexit? Because you're only allowed 80 days over there anyway.

Jimmy:

was, I was moving in. I think he saw me taking the piss out of him, trying to chat up this young girl. Thought I'd teach him. Anyhow. I had to show him my travel documents, showing that I'd left Ibiza a week later. So we're thinking we're going to miss our flight to this stage. Turned over the passport page and the fucking stamps on the next page.

James:

it's page, there you go, Germanic efficiency for you.

Jimmy:

Yeah, yeah, somewhat. But, having said that, Vienna is a fantastic city, great people, great place, lovely food, spectacular buildings, and amazing Christmas fairs and Glühwein.

James:

Well, it's interesting. You should say that I didn't go to Vienna.

Jimmy:

Where did you go? Ah, yeah,

James:

great architecture, great food,

Jimmy:

maybe.

James:

amazing Christmas fair. They had the Frankfurt Christmas fair. And, I had the joy of going to. The bull ring with my teenage daughter shopping. The best bit was they've opened a new shop Sephora,

Jimmy:

Right, yeah, yeah.

James:

which is, I believe, a sort of upmarket boost. I don't quite get what it is, but yeah, they've got this big picture on the wall of this beautiful woman with strong is beautiful, beautiful, is strong, right against it. So I'm adopting it as my motto. That's what I'm

Jimmy:

Strong is beautiful and beautiful is strong.

James:

It's me all over. So why are we talking about career? Then why is this important?

Jimmy:

So I guess we were talking about this from a position of relative success, although be careful with comparisons.

James:

Yeah. There's always somebody who's doing better than you are.

Jimmy:

know,

James:

Mind you, mind you, Elon Musk. He's got a lot more money than me and I'm not that jealous.

Jimmy:

is he happier? He's certainly a bigger knob. That's for sure. That's an achievement in itself. So, but don't compare because comparison is the thief of joy, but we have reflected on some of the insights, lessons learned that we, had on the journey. it's, it is a frequent question. It's a subject that everyone wrestles with and there's no training course to go on so we thought that we have some perspectives and they're quite different and so we thought we were

James:

and so we thought we'd do a bit of that. So we'll see if the past 30 years didn't mean anything to it at all. So this episode, I started thinking about this and it reminded me a little bit of that song. What was his name? Baz Luhrmann. What's it called? Where's Sunscreen?

Jimmy:

Oh yeah, I remember that. Jesus, that was a few years ago now.

James:

yeah, show me. But, I went and I had a look. It's actually quite a good song. He said, well, I'm not sure if it's musical, content, Yeah, I'm not sure if it's musicality, but, it's actually got some quite good lyrics in it. And I went through that and I, I've highlighted a bit. So, according to Baz Luhrmann, you should not worry about the future. Or worry, but know that worrying isn't as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubblegum. And then he goes on, he goes on to point out that the real troubles in your life are absolutely the things that never crossed your worried mind. The kind that blindsides you at 4pm on some idle Tuesday. So, My first piece of advice was you can skip this podcast altogether and go and listen to the Baz Luhrmann song. It's about three and a half minutes long. It'll give you much more, useful advice.

Jimmy:

Well, it sounds great.

James:

No western screen, sorry. So go on then, key dilemmas, and what are the dilemmas associated with a career?

Jimmy:

So I think some of the dilemmas that people often face and worry about. Back to your point, unnecessary, but worry is, um, what do you want to be when you grow up? Everyone thinks that they have to have some really clear direction in their life.

James:

And my daughter, my daughter is what, she's in lower sixth form and they're all talking about which university do you want to go to and what do you want to study and you're making decisions and you haven't got the faintest idea yet, lots of them all want to be dentists. Apparently dentists earn more on average than any other university career so they're all lining up to be dentists. Yeah but you've got to stare at spit for 30 years, why would you do that?

Jimmy:

Just got to look in people's mouths and smelly

James:

So yeah, there you go, there's more to it than money.

Jimmy:

I've read, a while ago, a really helpful book. If you haven't read the, um, a hundred year life, it's worth having a look at that. I

James:

Oh, go on. What's that talk about then?

Jimmy:

guess the premise of the book is basically. Yeah, our parents and to a degree our generation had a three stage life. You were educated, you worked. And then you retired. You didn't retire for very long because your life expectancy wasn't that great. So, you know, you retired at 65 in your early 70s, so don't worry about it too much. But, I guess, a hundred year life is saying that now, life expectancy for people born now will probably be near a hundred years. So you will be working for a lot, lot longer.

James:

That's a cheerful thought.

Jimmy:

So the point is, you know, when our parents were getting jobs, I mean, my dad went and got a job and it was just jobs for life.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

You were doing either your specific job, your career, your employer. That was it. That's what you did for the whole of your life. That's the thing of the past now. And actually careers are way more fluid. You'll have times of, re education, sabbatical, changes of careers. There'll be all sorts of things that we all do over that period of time, so the point is, I guess, you just need to think rather differently about the choices that you're making. When you're sitting there at 16 saying, I want to be a dentist and I'm going to do this, do this, do this, and then I'm going to spend 50 years being a dentist, that's not what it turns out. So don't swear as much.

James:

Yeah. All right. Other dilemmas then, what do you think?

Jimmy:

how do you plot the best path for your career? I want to get to the top.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

How do I go up the corporate ladder?

James:

Yeah. Do I want to go up the corporate ladder?

Jimmy:

More like snakes and ladders.

James:

Yeah. Well, exactly. That is much more of a snakes and ladders and we'll come back onto that. another question is how much education do you need? And that's a fascinating one. I mean, I have got, I'd just like to point this out. I've got two degrees. many of you got,

Jimmy:

I can't add to your degrees. I have got two, two less degrees than you.

James:

so there you go. I'm feeling morally superior now, but in reality, did that make any difference to my career at all compared to yours?

Jimmy:

So I think You're right. Education it often is the entry into a game. I encourage both my, girls to go to university, mainly for the, the social and independent side. in terms of, does it really help you, personally, I've found that getting the right sort of experience helped me a lot more.

James:

Yeah. So it's a qualifying factor, I think. Yeah. another question then is when should you change your job?

Jimmy:

What changed your jobs, James? I mean, it's. everyone looks for the perfect time. That it just doesn't exist. There's always, too early, too late. Well, if I'd stayed, you know, if I'd stayed at Lab Brooks, I could have been part of the internet revolution,

James:

yeah,

Jimmy:

but, you know, I

James:

I'd stayed at Asda, I'd have got a load of shares when they sold to Walmart. But

Jimmy:

yeah, I stayed at certain jobs too long. there's no point in thinking about that. For me, I always thought. What Was I getting out of a job versus what was my employer getting? When, when that balance tipped too much in their favor, in other words, they were getting loads out of it and I wasn't, that was time for me to move on.

James:

Well, and there's another question there, isn't it? When you do change a job, are you moving to a job or are you moving away from a job? But then do you really know? Yeah. I think you can go round and round in

Jimmy:

Well, the danger is, I've found is that you tend to move away from a job quite a bit, that's what first gets you looking is you're, you're unhappy with your current state but that's, you know, that's not, that's not a job putting you towards it because you really want to do it.

James:

Yeah. It's just cause you want to go away from where you

Jimmy:

Yeah. And that's maybe not always the best, it can force the timeline.

James:

you don't know the best company I ever went to work for. I moved away from a job to get there.

Jimmy:

You get caught with a dilemma. Of if you stay in one organization, because you have the knowledge of that organization,

James:

some people do bubble to the

Jimmy:

absolutely, you know, whereas when you're moving around on, you can often pick up pay rises and promotions more than you can as an

James:

I get paid a lot more if you move externally.

Jimmy:

I know when I was getting on because I knew loads of specifics to that organization comply them anywhere else. But to that company, I knew stuff,

James:

And another question is if you've got the golden handcuffs, should you wear them? Or should you move?

Jimmy:

but lots of people get caught with, share options, pensions, retention bonuses, all that sort of stuff. And yeah, that turns your head from, are you really enjoying the job? Are you really making a difference?

James:

So we've talked about a list of dilemmas, but we don't have any answers. Right. And because you do not know what is going to happen. So I suppose rather than giving answers, what we have done is we've sat down and we thought about a list of what principles call them or beliefs to hold things that

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

think about careers.,

Jimmy:

in our opinion, these are the right things to hold in your head. Life will probably be a bit easier, more enjoyable, more productive.

James:

Yeah. So let's move on and talk about the words of wisdom. This could be the shortest podcast ever. First principle then. So my first principle then is it's all about people. Yeah. So what do I mean about that? Well, a corporate career is all about the people that you work with. It's all about your boss. It's all about your network. It's all about the people that you work. with any work for you. And that really is the thread that will hold your career together. Absolutely.

Jimmy:

I think so. And if I look at my career, Versus the bosses that I had, I can correlate the most enjoyment and the most success I've had with what I would say the best bosses are and the converse is also true. So I think that that for me, you know, that relationship between you and your boss. It's just, it is pivotal. And if you get to the point where that's not working or breaking down me, often that's the point where you want to be looking for a new job.

James:

Yeah. Find a new job. And that's always been the thing for me. It's my being my boss when I've got something I really don't like or respect. That's the time of

Jimmy:

Whereas I think your network, your colleagues and your team help you achieve and help your enjoyment for sure. But they don't necessarily always make them break in the same way that your boss can

James:

Yeah. But it will be your network and your colleagues and your team that help you get out from underneath. Yeah. and then links to that. When I say it's all about people, I think it's just the point that sponsorship really matters.

Jimmy:

What do you mean by

James:

Well, so you can be as brilliant as you like, and you know, you should strive to be as brilliant as as you can be. Do the best job you can. But if your boss doesn't like it, it doesn't matter. So it's all about sponsorship and having the people around you in the organization who you can go to for help and he'll help you find those opportunities. Yeah.

Jimmy:

I think often. People who are your sponsors, supporters, will help you find other jobs. So I know that nearly every opportunity I've had in the last probably 20 years has been because of some sort of sponsor, supporter of mine who's helped me find a new opportunity, new project, new challenge, new job.

James:

Yeah. And of the times I've moved jobs, half of that has just been by a sponsorship. Yeah. and then linked to that as well as the whole thing about the emotional bank accounts. But if these people are so important, the one thing you really should be doing is keep on investing in that emotional bank accounts. And so do things for the people around you, because that is the way that you'll build a good career.

Jimmy:

rather than think about it as networking, think about it as relationship building. So how much time do you expect, do you invest in building relationships? A lot of us, it's very transactional. I invest in my relationship with you because we're working together. How much time do you invest in people, That's where the value is. It might not be there today, but it will be there one day. There have been times in my career where people that I worked with I didn't get on with, there was no emotional bank account. They were overdrawn later in my career, they came knocking on my door, looking for a job. I hadn't spoken to them for years. All of a sudden,

James:

you want to get your best friend,

Jimmy:

Funny enough, the door was firmly shut at that stage.

James:

the old cliche goes, watch how you treat people on the way up, because you might need them back on the way down. Which leads us quite nicely on to our next little truism, which is that you make your own luck. So what do I mean by that? when you're in your twenties, you kind of think that you're going to get a job and you'll get promoted and do the next job. When you get promoted, you'll get the next job and the career. Well, they're talking about a career ladder. You just climb and you climb and you climb so he gets the top. And the reality is it's nothing like that at all. There are ups, there are ups, but there are also downs. Um, and those downs might well be outside your control, but let's see how they hurt when you're experiencing one. When you get one of those downs, learn what you can from it, but pick yourself up because it's all about how quickly you pick yourself up and what you do next, that's the most important thing.

Jimmy:

Yeah. If you're investing time in your relationships that may help you with your career, you are making your luck. You know, I've had ups and downs in my career. I've, got demoted, got made redundant. There's all sorts of stuff that's happened to me. I've always worked, you know, focused on making my own luck. There will be ups. There will be downs. It's right. It's like a little bit like, you know, career snakes and ladders, whereas you tend to always think it's just ladder, ladder,

James:

Next one is try different things. Now this one's going to sound a bit random, but I'm a great believer that the number of companies you work for extends your life. Yeah, it's right. So why do I think that? Well, I worked in the past. I worked for Unilever. I worked for Unilever. Right. I also worked for ASDA. Made a mistake, not my cup of tea, I worked for ASDA for eight months. But the funny thing is, looking back, it seems like the same amount of time. I've got as many memories out of ASDA as I did out of Unilever. Whereas I've worked with a guy once, uh, I did some work with a local council and I was sitting next to this guy. I was in my forties at the time. And he said, yeah, I've been here 20 years. Um, it doesn't seem that long looking back at it at which point I thought, Oh my God, you're going to be sitting at this desk for 40 years.

Jimmy:

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd go as far as the different companies extend your life. However, I do agree that, when you talk to people like your, your man, who's been there 20 years, I'll bet you one of the first things, like people who've been in companies a long time, say been here 20 years, but I've done Lots of jobs. I always say lots of different jobs. I think what people underestimate is the amount of learning. That you get by moving to different organizations versus different jobs within one organization.

James:

absolutely. And it all comes down to culture. So I have worked for some truly fabulous organizations and I've worked for some real shockers. Yeah. And it's just about the way they're managed, but you don't know, you don't know until you try these things.

Jimmy:

And I do think, that both in terms of, refreshing yourself, learning and enjoyment. And therefore, I suppose, to your point, extending your life. Yeah, actually changing jobs is a real experience. It's not, it's not straightforward. Yeah, but in terms of learning enjoyment, try some stuff fresh.

James:

And so links to that, I If you can work abroad now, I, I'll say that from a position never having done it, I have worked abroad a lot, but not on a full time basis, um, I got offered a job in Saudi Arabia, which I turned down for one reason I got offered a job in Bulgaria, which turned down for another.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

With the benefit of hindsight, maybe I should have taken them.

Jimmy:

And to be honest, I say it from a fractionally more informed view. In that I did do some work overseas briefly and it, yeah, it was really amazing to experience different culture. I definitely think experiencing a different culture and different way of working, in a different country is, is an amazing thing if you get the chance to do

James:

I also think if you are run by a headhunter, you should always return their call. And I know we see this one slightly differently, but, my brother in law, Tony, If you're listening, Tony, hello, he's a headhunter and they're lonely people, right? They sit in rooms by themselves, just phoning people. So you should return their calls just out of politeness. But you never know when that headhunter is going to have some fabulous opportunity that you really want to take. So I'm a big fan of You should always return their

Jimmy:

Well, and I've come at this slightly different way because Tony aside, who I'm sure is fantastic and worth answering the phone to, I think a lot of headhunters are as much use as a chocolate teapot. So they're a bit like estate agents. estate agents, if they've got the perfect house for you and they think they can get a sale, they'll put some effort in. If they don't, they're not putting any effort in. They are fundamentally lazy creatures. And I think headhunters are very similar. That's not to say they don't work hard and they don't make lots of calls and the rest of it, but in terms of their ability to help people, I think they know who's paying the bills. But for me, I would invest more time in my relationships and my network than I would in headhunters. Because I think that's the way of finding work

James:

and maybe do both. Yeah. the next one is always try out that new job, that new responsibility, that new skill, because you've got no idea where that's going to take you either.

Jimmy:

One of the things that we often think about new jobs, new skills is we expect to be able to do a hundred percent of a job. when somebody writes a job description, It's like a massive shopping list, and you, unless you can tick every box. Don't even bother. That's it. That's dream world. Actually, if you do 80 percent of the job and you can learn the other 20%, that's probably as good as it's going to get. But that 20 percent is often where you get learning and where you get development. You have to, as an employer, you have to take chances on people. And as an employee, you have to take chances on some new jobs.

James:

There is that nugget of wisdom. Try different things before we leave that one, I'm going to leave you with something

Jimmy:

Well then,

James:

a trench is a grave without an end don't keep going along the same trench.

Jimmy:

now here's one that people, obsess

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

money talks,

James:

yeah

Jimmy:

don't let it rule your career.

James:

advice.

Jimmy:

Back to the, internal versus external hires. There's ways, there's ways of earning more money and getting promoted. But people will make decisions and they'll make judgments on the pound signs. You know, I am doing better than you because I am earning more money than you. Never mind about my job satisfaction, my happiness, my sense of achievement. It's

James:

it's quite, quite similar.

Jimmy:

equation, isn't

James:

if you really want to make a lot of money, don't do the career thing. You're wasting your time. Go and set your own business up because you will have any, if you do well, you'll have a comfortable living. It won't be stellar, but you'll end up with a comfortable living, but it's never going to be the be all and end all in terms of the amount of money you make. But it has to be interesting.

Jimmy:

James, this time next year, we're going to be

James:

millionaires.

Jimmy:

Keep telling you, keep telling you.

James:

But you will have had that Monday morning feeling. Where you wake up and you think, oh my God. no amount of money is worth that.

Jimmy:

Well, we've, we've talked, if you listen to some of our other episodes, we talked about reward and stuff like that and bonuses and pay rises, they're all right, but they are very, very temporary. You remember them when you get the next pay packet and then you forget about them the following day. So they are very temporary, whereas enjoyment, achievement, satisfaction, that's with you every day.

James:

if your job is sucking the life out of you, and we've all been there. remember It's big, wide world. Somebody else out there will pay you as much money, probably more, but you just need to go out and find

Jimmy:

I've been guilty of this, you keep score by money, and job titles, that's a fool's errand.

James:

Right. Next one. Then it's deep. Don't let work define you. So my pet peeve, right? Once a year, 30

Jimmy:

this in 30 seconds James? Because you are going to mention performance management and then we're going to lose the next 10

James:

a half hour audience, right? Then I got 30 seconds starting from now. First of all, it's an HR box ticking exercise. Secondly, a ranking in the box after a year is far too late. Thirdly, performance rankings are just a game and you'd be far better off having a honest conversation with your boss and having that on a weekly or monthly basis. I have seen so many people get so upset by their year end rating and it just isn't worth it. So there you go. 28 seconds.

Jimmy:

seconds. So don't let performance management define you, but also we get defined by our job titles When you talk to people, and somebody says, what do you do? Nine times out of 10, you will tell somebody what your job is. You won't say, I'm a keen golfer or I'm a dad. you will say. I am, Chief Operating Officer, whatever, your job title is. And so we get caught up in that way of thinking.

James:

the point that we both realize is that all of a sudden that job title's disappeared. And then you're grasping around thinking, well, who the hell am I now, now that my job title's gone? So don't let that define

Jimmy:

very similarly, don't let the environment you are in define you either.'cause people will do the wrong thing. Because everyone else is doing something, a certain way.

James:

So for example, the post office thing was, people must have known they were doing the wrong thing. They were doing it just to fit in.

Jimmy:

Don't let the toxic environment define you move on.

James:

Next one. Then if you change things, you need to be clear and transparent and honest with yourself about your reasons for changing. there are a number of things that might be important to you, your family, money, security, the job, the prospects, whatever it might be, decides How you are playing those things through in your reasoning.

Jimmy:

whilst you don't have to know exactly what you want to be when you grow up, being clear about what it is you're trying to achieve with your career, does, does help. So what's your purpose? What are you here for? what's your sense of direction? What's providing you with your motivation? So what drives you forward?

James:

and I, I took a pay cut when I came to work with you the first time.

Jimmy:

you've got the benefit of working with

James:

No, it wasn't. So the reason why I left this fabulous job to go and work with Jimmy is that, my wife was living in Nottingham. I was working in Slough and, we wanted children. And I can tell you categorically that the M40 is the best contraceptive known to man. So, be really clear on your reasons. What's important to you the other thing somebody once said to me, a very wise man once said to me is, you have to do what you think is the best thing. So if you've made that decision that you're going to be on that train to London every morning at six o'clock, that's great, but be clear in your mind that that is why you are doing it and you honestly believe that's the best thing because the last thing you want to do is live with regrets. Yeah.

Jimmy:

try and think a little bit deeper than I just want a money or promotion. What is it you're really trying to achieve in your career? What is really driving you? look forward. And who was that wise man? Eddie.

James:

All right. Moving on. then the final one, we call it played a long game here, but I worked for a chap, chap called Lee.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

And then Lee once said to me, when I was in my early thirties, he said, when you get a bonus. Don't spend it save it because that's how you create wealth. The point there is in the nicest possible way The most important you can do about getting your career is what is rather crudely known as fuck you money which is When you can tell people where they can stick their job.

Jimmy:

Well, we're getting into your, your personal financial strategy here. I go the other way. I think the bonus is there to be, to be spent. I always aim to enjoy my bonus, but I think your point, which is a great one is whatever it is, play the long game, stop making decisions based on, today. So good example, in one organization, we were doing some work on pensions and Yeah. Not everyone can think the way that you described, you know? So, cause you've got to relate to your future self. What does your future self in 10, 20, 30, 40 years want? Your future self may well want you to save your bonuses. But we don't relate to our future self. We did some research and we found that you related more to a passing stranger in the street than you did to your future self.

James:

I'll take that research and I'll top it. there was a, there was a pension provider and what they did as an advertising strategy was they took videos of people and then with a bit of fancy graphics and AI, they made those people look 20, 30 years older. And then all of a sudden, when people were faced with a picture of themselves 20 years older, Then they started to think about saving for the future.

Jimmy:

So we talked about some dilemmas that you face and our perspective on those. Then we talked about some ways of thinking and approaching your career But if we just take career advice, James, what's the top three bits of advice you were given around your career?

James:

I think the one which I was given far too late, is that culture is everything. All organizations are different. Move around and find an organization that you really like working for and then stay in it because it's where you fit. That will be my number one piece of advice.

Jimmy:

Number two,

James:

I was lucky, right? I was employed for 33 years and my Got out, I suppose, relatively early, but it's a long time. So do something you enjoy with people that you like. And the third one, cause I'm just Mr. Stingy, save your bonus, put it away. Your future self will be glad that you did. How

Jimmy:

though.

James:

about you?

Jimmy:

Well, my top three would be own your, own your career. Don't let others control your destiny. Also, I keep saying to my girls, find something that you're good at, you enjoy, and the world needs. Then you do that, your goal. And then finally, my third bit would be that nothing ever goes to plan.

James:

of snakes.

Jimmy:

It's a winding road, don't beat yourself up about it.

James:

Yeah. So then we should leave it with Baz Lerman. Yeah. Do you know what else he said?

Jimmy:

gone.

James:

Don't mess with your hair. So, on that note, I think we're done.

Jimmy:

hopefully people pick up a few hints, tips from this. If you've got any other bits of advice, or you want to talk further

James:

Oh, you thought it was all bobbins?

Jimmy:

then please let us know. Get in touch.

James:

Cheers now.

Jimmy:

Thanks everyone.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

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Jimmy Barber

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