Energy Limiting Conditions - The Workplace's Hidden Secret

You or someone near you suffers from one of these.....

This week, Steve Shutts joined us to discuss energy-limiting conditions, which impact 15 million people in the UK or 1 in 5 in the workplace. These conditions are a silent challenge for many, often not talked about or understood, and consequently negatively impact many people's working lives.

Steve shares the extent to which these conditions impact people, provides insights into how to make the workplace inclusive for people with ELCs, and discusses the benefits this can bring to individuals, teams, and organisations.

We will all work with people with ELCs, and many of us suffer from an ELC ourselves, so take the time to educate yourself on this subject and the great work the charity ASTRIID does in this space. 

Transcript

0:03

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

Jimmy: 0:14

Afternoon, James. How you doing

James: 0:16

very well, thank you very much. A bit chilly, to be honest with you, but other than that, very well.

Jimmy: 0:20

chilly? It's Baltic, mate. It's, like minus six. It was this morning when I went out in my dressing gown and boxer shorts to go and take the dogs

James: 0:29

there's a mental image, nobody needs, thank you very much.

Jimmy: 0:33

Don't worry, everyone. Things will get better from this point forward. What you've been up to recently.

James: 0:38

Well, mostly I've been clearing snow off driveways, although People take the mick out. Me and I drive a Volvo. But when the weather is like this, a Volvo gives you a smoke sense of middle class satisfaction. It's hard to beat. So that has been my week. Snow and Volvos.

Jimmy: 0:53

In fact, you know, smug middle class is, is your

James: 0:56

Yeah, It should be.

Jimmy: 0:58

wheelhouse.

James: 0:59

I'm gonna have it, I'm gonna have it on my on my gravestone.

Jimmy: 1:03

So today we are welcoming. Steve shoots to talk about a fascinating subject energy limiting conditions, we will talk about what they are and why they are important to all of us. Steve do you want to give a quick intro to yourself and the work you do?

Steve Shutts: 1:23

Yeah. Good afternoon, Jimmy and James. Very nice to be invited to talk to you. Thank you very much for having me. And it's yeah, the conversation we're going to have today is essentially around my experience leading a charitable organization called Astrid. A S T R I I D. Available skills to train, refresh, innovate, Improve and develop. And it's a charity that was founded by my brother, David Schutz. He founded the charity at the end of 2017 really on the back of his life experience, which was But as a, an individual who'd had a very successful career, David was a a career naval officer. He rose to the rank of commander. He was made an OBE by the Queen for services to the Navy. But at 50 years old he was diagnosed with cancer and it was a stage four cancer. And we lost him in 2018. But we only lost him after he'd had a life experience, which really then formed the basis of this charity, Astrid. And that was that no matter who you are, no matter what experience you've got, whatever life has given you by way of skills or academic capability when you're hit by an illness like cancer but, but any long term condition that saps your energy you find yourself in a position where you obviously focus on your health, you focus on getting better, you focus on understanding the implications of, of the situation you now find yourself in and, and, and work sort of takes a back seat. But when you feel ready to come back to work again you find that you've lost an enormous amount, not just a bit of time, you've lost a lot of confidence, you've lost a lot of your. ability to feel your place in the world. And and David found that and he found this was 2017. he found that it was very hard to get back into the world of work. He was employed at the time he'd left the Navy to retire from the Navy and he joined the CPI. They were very good with him. He had a regional director job. They were very supportive, but he couldn't do what he used to do. So they found him some, some things to do, but otherwise David really struggled to find. Opportunities to apply the skills, the experience, the network that he had. And no matter what he did, he simply couldn't get connected with work. So the charity was set up by David and I ran it from 2018 onwards to essentially to address that situation. You're an individual. who's been going along your work life, you could be David's age 50, but you could be 30, you could be 20, young people get ill too. And you find that suddenly you're no longer able to do what you used to do, you've got an illness, you've got to manage it, and you want to get back to doing something useful and some work and some contribution, but you just don't know how to do it. And our charity has existed since 2018, to help people to do exactly that.

Jimmy: 4:03

I was just gonna say a couple of things Steve, before we get into the subject. one is thank you to Vicky Smith. Who's one of our audience who has suggested this as a subject for us to cover. So thank you, Vicky. We do always, love to hear from our audience about subjects they want us to cover. Now this was one where, you know, clearly James and I have limited expertise on the subject. So thank you to her for also introducing us to Stephen. Steve, for your time. In sharing your, your experience and expertise, because what we hadn't realized when we started this conversation, exactly what energy limiting conditions were and how prevalent they were. And it's that, it's that prevalence really, that impacts so many people, and in fact, to declare a personal interest in this as well, my partner Vic, she also has an energy limiting condition. And so I see kind of firsthand how it impacts people's. Steve, do you want to tell us a bit about what energy limiting conditions are and why it's important for our audience who are, really focused on, improving their performance and enjoyment at work? Why should we be talking about this?

Steve Shutts: 5:16

Sure. Thanks, Jimmy. And, and, you know, thanks for your, your honesty and openness as well. If there was a bit more of that around, I think almost topics like this wouldn't need to be discussed because they become much more mainstream. But energy limiting conditions are a subset really of long term chronic conditions. So long term chronic conditions are all the sorts of things you'd expect. The ME, the chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, long COVID, MS. mental health conditions, depression, anxiety, PTSD respiratory conditions, asthma, COPD, musculoskeletal. conditions such as arthritis and epilepsy. So those are all long term conditions. Many of those categorized as energy limiting conditions, ELC, which affects the amount of activity you can do rather than the type of activity., so the types of energy limiting conditions will lead people to having a number of symptoms there. They're almost certainly suffering with fatigue and unlimited energy. They'll have a very fluctuating capacity to be able to get things done in a sustained way. All things which are. Impairing their ability to, to live their life and contribute fully to their work.

James: 6:23

Well, can I ask a question, Steve? So the risk of being the, or the opposite of right on, yeah. The why would a manager want to worry about this? I mean, why would a manager want somebody who can't do a full day's work or four weeks work

Steve Shutts: 6:37

I think for the manager, it's about getting an understanding, James, really, that, that we've done our own research as a charity over these years, and we've identified from our research, 89%, nearly 90%, of people who are managing these conditions want to get introduced to employers who understand the principle. They want to get introduced to organizations that understand that because they know that if they have that, then they have the ability to deliver Their best performance at work. So there's this huge talent pool. So if you're a manager or a hiring manager or even a CEO leading an organization, you're going to want to fish in the biggest pools available to get the best talent available. And by not understanding this topic and understanding these individuals and the needs they have, then you're missing out on a huge opportunity. We call it the invisible talent

James: 7:27

And you say, sorry, it's a huge pool. So how many people are we talking about?

Steve Shutts: 7:31

The latest ONS data, it's now just about on 3 million. A number of people who are of working age, who are affected by one of these areas of illness that are not able to work. If you take the number of people. who are working and are working whilst managing those conditions, then the number is much larger. It's said to be around 12 to 13 million, but it's difficult to know because disclosure is such an issue. Because when you have an illness, you're concerned about disclosing, you're fearful of discrimination, you're fearful of lost opportunities, there's a stigma associated with being unwell, you run the risk of not being believed. So you are scared to disclose and there will be an awful lot of people, perhaps listening to this podcast now, listen to us talking, who are in exactly that situation where they are fearful of disclosing their situation. Now,

James: 8:26

Just so let me. Quantify that. So about three million people. Plus Another what 12 million. So I'm talking circa maybe 15 million people who are on the

Steve Shutts: 8:38

talking about one in five in the

James: 8:39

Yeah

Steve Shutts: 8:40

talking about one in three in the working population.

James: 8:44

Yeah,

Jimmy: 8:44

and I think that's the thing is when you went through the list, Steve, of some of the ailments that people could be suffering from, there were things in there where you think, yeah, yeah, I know someone who has that. I know someone's that you mentioned long COVID. That's a good example. I mean, that's causing, you know, a massive issue and the numbers are growing as you rightly say.

Steve Shutts: 9:06

Yeah,

James: 9:06

Your point on disclosure, I mean, if I think I've had teams of a couple of hundred people working for me, if I've got, one or five or more who have got this problem, then you're talking, hang on, let me do my maths, one in five into two hundred forty people. And I had no idea. So people aren't talking about it at all. They really aren't disclosing it to

9:28

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James: 10:01

Now go on.

Steve Shutts: 10:02

But for job seekers, typically three quarters, 75 percent from our research were looking specifically for job adverts that talked about flexibility, flexibility in terms of working hours. In terms of location as well, they're looking for that in the advert. So if you're an organization that's trying to attract these people, it's actually relatively easy to hook them in. If you're offering flexibility in your job, you just need to put that in an advert and you're immediately going to attract this community of individuals. But for those who are in employment, and that's the people who are working today, 48 percent of them left their previous job because the working conditions caused their health to deteriorate. Because people will absolutely prioritise, and rightly so, their health among rather than than staying in a job that's that's actually damaging them.

Jimmy: 10:56

And I think that's fascinating. So back to the question. I mean, I think it'd be fascinating to know how many of our audience knew at the outset of what energy limiting conditions were, but then when you start to share those stats, so you've got a population of people that you could recruit. So there's a recruitment angle to this, everyone listening to this will have either have people in their team or people alongside them, colleagues who have these conditions. And then the third part is, and if you want to retain people, which obviously most organizations do, there is a hidden retention issue. if you're not able to make the workplace inclusive for this population of people. So, it's, it's a massive issue or a massive opportunity for organizations and people working in organizations.

Steve Shutts: 11:50

Yeah, absolutely.

Jimmy: 11:51

We've talked, talked about what these are, why it's important, but how do, how do these conditions impact people's lives?

Steve Shutts: 11:58

So in terms of how it affects them personally, obviously, that's that's as as I mentioned earlier, so fatigue, pain. Exacerbated by, by mental distress means people are worrying a great deal of the time. So they're affected personally. Financial impact of course is on the list, but when I tell you it's the bottom of the list, based upon that research, what's above that in terms of the impact that people feel is self confidence, self esteem, a sense of belonging, being part of a team making a contribution, achieving their goals, achieving their aspirations, achieving their ambitions. And then finance sits at the bottom. So people are affected through a whole variety of, social and environmental issues that make them feel as if they are no longer worthwhile.

Jimmy: 12:46

The impact in many ways can depend on the individual and the, circumstance. My other half has an energy limiting condition fibromyalgia, she suffers from, some real ups and downs in her energy. Now, she doesn't let that really impact her work. She works incredibly hard, but she will get up in the morning and feel like she's not had a night's sleep. But she'll get up and do a day's work, and at the end of the day, she'll often, collapse in a heap because she's given all her energy to her work. So, some people in these situations will work really hard to do okay at work, but then it can be their personal life that suffers as well.

Steve Shutts: 13:26

met massively Jimmy and I'll give you other examples as well. Is a lady who had been diagnosed with a cancer in her early twenties. She was working for a large accounting practice, one of the big five. This was all pre COVID times and having had a cancer diagnosis, she was, she was managing it reasonably well. Didn't feel the need to disclose it but it did get worse. And she needed surgery and she needed a chemotherapy. And so rather than disclose and tell her employer that's what she was going through, She took a sabbatical. She was off work for six months and in that time she had the surgery and the chemotherapy to recover from the illness, And she succeeded. She got back to work and didn't need to tell anybody. But how awful is that situation? That that somebody has to hide and mask to that extent that they are prepared to do that just to stay in the job and avoid, the fear of discrimination, the stigma, and if a culture in an organization of presenteeism exists, then an individual like that is destined to fail.

Jimmy: 14:28

We all know people. We're working with people. We've got people who are, who are suffering from these ELCs in our teams., if we want to, get the best out of people and make the workplace really inclusive, and the benefits of, in terms of performance, that, that will then give us. What, from your experience, Steve, are some of the things that we should be thinking about and doing,

Steve Shutts: 14:50

Well, to that point about disclosure, undoubtedly the thing that you can do best is to look to foster a culture of open communication where. People feel able to talk. People feel able to share. To discuss appropriate adjustments. To to help them to be better at work to deliver their best performance at work. And so example of that would be a health adjustments passport. You've got a passport that describes the ways in which you can give your best to the organization. Some organizations have them, and some allow them to individuals to take the passport with them from job to job. And what that's. done is allowing people to be more confident that when they're in a job and working in a position that they've got the adjustments they need to help them give their best to the job. And sometimes that involves HR, it involves occupational health, you've got a team like that as well. But it's, it's about bringing a culture together which is fostered by that by that open communication. So, you can do that in terms of addressing disclosure within the team of people you've got. Within recruitment, well that's about creating as inclusive a recruitment process as you possibly can. Personally speaking when I advise individuals in this situation about how to apply for jobs, I I'm always keen to promote the idea of making the first interview a video interview. My advice to an organization that's looking to recruit is to create as flexible in terms of location, timing the interview process in order to give people the chance to be their best self at work.

Jimmy: 16:34

Just, just one point back to the, the disclosure within your team and encouraging people within your team to be open about it. I think the only thing, not that I disagree with, but I think there's, there is a danger. at times that the leaders in organizations see this as an HR problem. So this is, this is for HR occupational health. They need to worry about these things. And actually with the numbers that you're talking about, I mean, let's use James's example. If he's, if he's got just on average 40 people in his 200 people team who are suffering from these, if he wants his team to perform well, he's got to worry about this. HR's not going to sort that out for him.

Steve Shutts: 17:15

And, and it's also it's, it's also the fact that, that, you know, a lot of our HR colleagues and teams will perhaps lack some of the confidence and experience to have these types of conversations. These are, these are very human conversations. We've been running some workshops for the NHS and I was running one earlier this week and a senior, uh, practitioner in the NHS said how heartened he was. There were 25 people on the, on the the call. It's a virtual training session. They hadn't met each other. They were all in different parts of the country working in the same roles, but how heartened he was to hear them talking as openly about the development of that, of that open culture, that open communication culture and how prepared they were to talk about adjustments, how prepared they were to talk about flexible working arrangements, flexible schedules. Remote working options where possible. But they importantly were all in a training event being delivered by an organization, us, the charity, who were talking about our lived experience to help them to get better at improving their hiring practices. So the more conversations you can have, the more training you can have, the better you're going to be at creating that inclusive culture and, and to think about performance for a minute. If you can then think about performance measured by output rather than hours worked, then you've got a better chance of valuing the contribution that's made by these individuals. If you, if you assess their performance based upon those results rather than the rigid schedules and the demand to physically be present. then you're going to benefit those that are managing those fluctuating health conditions.

Jimmy: 18:53

So just to, just to pick up on one thing you said remote working, flexible working and, and those are two things that have changed a lot over the last five years or so. And, and not, not for the reason of, ELCs, but for other reasons, but they must be of, real benefit to people suffering from these conditions. So, presumably they're, they're the sorts of things that, can, can be done that can make the workplace more inclusive.

Steve Shutts: 19:21

they're absolutely the sorts of adjustments that are, that are reasonable, aren't they? And so in some respects, Jimmy, you're absolutely right. The pandemic and the resultant fallout in terms of change in working patterns really should have benefited. This community and really does benefit organizations who can now think about how they could be more creative in their job structures, in their job titles, in the way in which they require people to work. They can, they can think about being creative about about job sharing, about schedules and routines. About the discipline of physically being in a place. They've got that flexibility, so there's really no excuse to not think about how you can bring these people that we're describing back will help them to get back to work.

James: 20:06

But I think, Steve, there's a wider issue at play here, because what you're saying is, it's all about open comms within an organisation, and people really seeing the benefit of what their staff can bring, well, frankly, even if somebody hasn't got an energy limiting condition, if you can't have an open conversation with your staff, what sort of organisation are you working in?

Steve Shutts: 20:30

yeah, yeah, I was the chief people officer for a media company I've always been in people one way or another. And what you know when you've done, you've got that sort of experience is if you equip your managers with the understanding of what it's like to be a supportive leader, then you're going to benefit your organization in a whole host of ways. Aren't you? You're going to, you're going to improve the culture. The culture is going to lead to better team working, better collaboration. You're going to foster trust, you're going to foster loyalty open communication will, encourage people to, to take ownership of problems and, and to better find solutions and make better decisions as a result of that. So, so yeah, the organization is absolutely going to benefit from an open culture and open communications culture and performance, morale, retention are all going to improve.

James: 21:20

And so going back to my point about what, if you've got a team of 200 people, oh, which I did have then it's a bit sad actually. And maybe it's a bad reflection on me, but not one of them ever admitted to me that this was a, an issue for

Steve Shutts: 21:34

One of the things that I found is a big is a component in organizations that do this well is where somebody in the organization at the top of the organization presents themselves as a role model. So that almost certainly points to one of the board, managing a health condition where they feel able to talk about that and be open about that and have a conversation about the adjustments that they found necessary as a senior person in the organization. Well, it does encourages those within the organization to feel able to have that conversation themselves.

Jimmy: 22:08

So, you touched on, Steve, some of the, adjustments that you might make as an organization and the benefits that are clearly not just limited to the performance of the individual, but actually both from a, recruitment. A retention, a performance, a morale, and again, just not with the individuals impacted. It's, it's the whole team, isn't it? inclusivity, benefits the whole team, not just the individuals. And the uplifting performance from this sort of thing could be, could be significant if organizations just really understood it and embraced it.

Steve Shutts: 22:46

You've, you've got some very hard measures, but you've also got some, some soft one. I, I remember Rebel Ideas, a Matthew Syed book I used to run workshops for, for people around those ideas. the thought that if you were a bit of a rebel, if you thought about things in a different way, then. Innovation was clearly going to be fostered, but I would think that the the adoption of inclusivity in the way that we're describing it here is going to lead to innovation. You're bringing people into your organization who have got a life experience which is going to be different from anyone else's. They've been managing a set of circumstances. Think about that Ex naval officer at home. overnight having had chemotherapy, not able to sleep, not able to function, think about nothing other than his illness. Imagine the life experience that that presents and how that helps you to overcome challenges and problems and how it helps you to think differently. So bringing innovation into an organization by the adoption of that individual that's come to join you conflict resolution, the way in which People like that will tackle challenges and problems and and interpersonal problems and drop somebody like that into a team and the team's arguing over semantics and small things. This guy is managing a situation in their life, which is so much bigger and at a completely different level and their ability to see holistically and solve problems are going to be enormously valuable to the team.

James: 24:17

them. Yeah. But it's not, it's not just about the individuals that you could recruit. It really is about the mindset of the managers, I think.

Steve Shutts: 24:25

Yeah, and, and it's that, and of course what the, what the, the, the managers are looking for, they're looking for morale, they're looking for. retention. They're looking for performance, aren't they? They're looking for, for things to be improved that make their life and their ability to deliver to, to improve that. And and so, you know, not losing people. What was the number? 48 percent being lost because they've found the organization is damaging their health, not losing people, not having the cost of recruiting and then retraining new people is going to be enormously valuable to the organization as

James: 24:58

Yeah. But also the spinoff in terms of the other people in the team and how they see their manager behaving. And, you know, that whole sense of fairness, I would imagine that's invaluable as well.

Jimmy: 25:10

Yeah. So we've talked about why this is important, how prevalent is some of the adjustments you can make, the benefits if you're, if you're an individual, though, suffering from one of these ELCs, you know, can you share some of the things that, that you can do to really help yourself in terms of, you know, your work and your work performance?

Steve Shutts: 25:33

Yeah. I mean, as, as an individual you have to take responsibility for yourself. You have to think about how you can prioritize your work, prioritize your tasks. So focusing on, on high impact tasks and breaking larger projects into smaller manageable steps with to do lists and calendar blocking and using some of the tools that are available, like, like Trello to, to help you to do that, to stay organized. Building in rest periods. That is adjustment, which is is less commonly talked about, but an example. And in fact, we, we practiced it on that NHS. Workshop call earlier this week. An example of that would be you have to have a meeting that goes on beyond an hour, making sure that the last five minutes of the hour is allows people to decompress, get up, walk around, leave the room, toilet, tea, whatever it might be, but to deliberately build that in into the schedule or building in a very short rest period. But if you're an individual. the more you can build rest periods into your day to develop a flexibility in the way in which you work will help you enormously., and I would be proactive about that disclosure. Too many people don't disclose what you should be thinking about is how you do that But, you know, there are tools around technology tools allies at work, employee assistance programs. Those are some of the ways by which organizations are presenting this support. But if you're somebody who's managing a health condition and thinking about either staying in the job you're in or going to a new job, I would certainly be spending time to understand how well the organization is set to be supporting people with conditions like yours.

Jimmy: 27:17

And hopefully, it's very surprising some of the stats that you shared with us about the numbers of people that are impacted by this. There is also something, slightly cathartic to understand that, you're not alone. There are lots of people probably sitting alongside you that are suffering from these conditions. And the more we can be, generally more open about these sorts of things, the more inclusive our workplaces will be and all the benefits that we touched on. They're the sorts of things you'll get in terms of upsides or performance. So, from a, business perspective, it's, it's a little bit of a no brainer, isn't it?

Steve Shutts: 27:53

It absolutely is. And that's before you start to consider the benefit you're going to have for these individuals. One of the things we have done before is a great way to start the conversation is to actually conduct a survey. I'd make it anonymous in the first instance, but a survey that encouraged as many people as possible to participate in the workplace and allow that to report. The on those that have got an illness or a condition they're managing that they may not have spoken about, but they are then looking to help the manager, to understand just how many people and what types of issues people are dealing with. You've done that anonymously. The very fact you've got that data on that team on the organization can then, it doesn't sound about then a witch hunt to find out who's what. It's then about saying, well, okay, we clearly have an issue that needs to be managed in this organization. What can we do now? We as a team do to give these individuals the best chance to perform.

Jimmy: 28:51

And just one thing on, on something you mentioned earlier which a bit more of a negative thing though, one of the things on the horizon is having. The pandemic got us all thinking more creatively about virtual, flexible working, and that's obviously a benefit to people with ELCs. But now there is a growing trend in organizations where they want people back in the, in the office. Lots of organizations are jumping on that bandwagon and they're obviously doing it without considering or understanding this. So there is a little bit of a. an iceberg ahead for some organizations I would imagine. So thank you Steve for sharing what is clearly a very common hidden secret and you shared very articulately about what these conditions are how important they are to the UK workforce and performance in general and the adjustments that you can make and that the benefits you'll then see if people want to find out more about this. How can I go about finding out more?

Steve Shutts: 29:54

Well, I'm delighted to say that it's at astrid. org, A S T R I I D dot O R G. We have a bunch of resources. We've got that research I referenced that's couched in terms of a series of recommendations as well. We've got a bunch of training materials and we'd love to talk to any organization that wants to engage us in delivering that training. We're a charity. So we don't charge very much money, but we do charge something to deliver that training, but it's all delivered by, by people with lived experience. Outside of us, the government does have a number of, of resources. I mentioned health passports earlier. There's a, a bunch of things available on health passports from government sites.

Jimmy: 30:33

James, any final questions, comments from you?

James: 30:36

Yeah, just I think because it's really worth hammering home that point, Steve. So if I'm a manager and I'm sitting here listening to this, and I'm thinking to myself, well, yeah, this is all very well, but These people haven't got the energy to do the job, why should I hire them? What would be your sort of two or three things that you'd really want to bang into me to change my mind?

Steve Shutts: 30:56

Well, I think you probably answered one of them yourself anyway, James, which is even if you're not doing this for the individuals that are affected in this way, these are not bad practices. these are things you should be doing anyway. As a leader, there's plenty of. of evidence out there that talks about how open communication about empowering individuals about being collegiate and supportive will deliver better innovation will improve morale and retention. So I think that would be my first, my first operation. It's just generally good practice anyway. I think the second would be that The numbers here are so almost terrifyingly large and we all sit and watch Children in Need and Stand Up to Cancer and all those lovely fundraising programs. If you think about the stats behind those, Stand Up to Cancer talks about one in two of us. being affected by cancer at some point during our lives. The number of people that are going to be affected, whether they're affected today and in your team, or whether they're going to be affected in the teams that you're going to run and be part of in the future, or whether it's going to include you or not, is almost going to come down to a complete lottery. And so, preparing yourself for a situation where even more people are affected by these factors, And therefore only in inverted commas, able to deliver in the ways in which we've been talking is going to prepare you for a future where you're going to have to recruit and retain those types of

James: 32:26

Okay. But so your second point really is true to the people the way you'd like to be treated yourself quite frankly.

Steve Shutts: 32:32

And, and it will affect you. It will absolutely direct to directly affect you. And, and so preparing yourself for that is is, is, is a key part.

Jimmy: 32:41

I was going to say, James, it's back to your point, isn't it? You've already got 20 percent of your workforce who probably are already suffering from these conditions. So, you're missing an opportunity if you're not thinking about that potential part of your workforce. Okay. Well, thank you for that, Steve. Hopefully our listeners have enjoyed and been informed. I'm sure they have about what ELCs are, the importance they are to all of us. We all, either no people or we'll suffer for them ourselves one day. And, and the benefits of acknowledging that, recognizing that and making adjustments for that. So thank you, Steve. And as Steve said have a look at Astrid's website for more information. And we'll put that in the in the show notes. Thank you very much, Steve.

Steve Shutts: 33:28

Thank you very much gentlemen. Lovely conversation really enjoyed it

James: 33:31

you.

33:31

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver, we can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations. Get in touch at Jimmy at jobdonewell. com or James at jobdonewell. com.