A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Meetings – The Lifeblood of Work, or Just Corporate Treacle?

• Jimmy Barber and James Lawther • Season 2 • Episode 18

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On average, we spend 28% of our working lives in meetings. So how do we make the most of this time and ensure meetings are productive and positive rather than "hours of my life I won't get back."?

This week's podcast discusses the importance of meetings and how we fool ourselves by using them to define our status and importance.

By following some simple principles, you can turn the corporate treacle into an invaluable investment of your time and your organisation's money. After all, you don't want to waste a quarter of your time at work!

If you want to make your meetings work, please contact James Lawther or Jimmy Barber.

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James (2):

Good afternoon. How are you doing?

Jimmy (2):

I'm doing well, James. How are you?

James (2):

I'm doing fabulously. Thank you very much. I'm very happy to be back after Christmas and New Year and having got through all of that So what we're going to talk about today then?

Jimmy (2):

So today, James, we are going to talk about meetings. And we are going to have the discussion. Are they the lifeblood of work or just corporate treacle?

James (2):

Yeah, or, or something that sucks the life out of you, which is another possibility.

Jimmy (2):

they can and they can be so we are going to talk about their importance And we are going to share Some hints and tips that will help you ensure they don't Run your life and you run them effectively and get the most out of them So, a really important subject to get the new year

James (2):

fascinating. I can see the numbers of listeners plummeting already. So, what have you been up to then?

Jimmy (2):

So far this year I've been suffering from flu. So,

James (2):

Oh, hang on. Is it flu or is it man flu?

Jimmy (2):

No, actually, I think it is actually flu. I've been on antibiotics

James (2):

real flu? Medically certified?

Jimmy (2):

it's, proper, yeah, the proper thing, the real deal.

James (2):

Doesn't sound very nice.

Jimmy (2):

what have you been up to?

James (2):

Ah, well, I, in my infinite wisdom, actually know, New year, new me, I went into the gym, I used my ill used gym membership, and I managed to put me back out like a pillock, so I've been hobbling about like an old man with a walking stick. Much to my wife's disgust and my children's joy.

Jimmy (2):

Is there any photos of you as a, with a

James (2):

Oh, there probably are actually, yeah, there probably are, yeah, I'll see if I can dig one out for you, yeah. Um,

Jimmy (2):

me next time.

James (2):

So why are we talking about meetings then? have you got any interesting facts, figures or statistics about meetings? Are there any, well yeah, are there any interesting facts, figures or statistics about meetings?

Jimmy (2):

interesting as a subjective word when it comes to meetings, but yes, I mean, for many of us meetings for a big part of our working life. On average, 28 percent of workers time is spent in meetings. So that is probably the most significant part of the working week for many.

James (2):

Well, now hang on though, so if 28 percent of their time, that's also 28 percent of the labour bill.

Jimmy (2):

yes, exactly. So 28 percent of the costs of labor costs in the UK are spent in meetings. On meetings, and so therefore it's

James (2):

hang on, hang on. And getting even really analytical about it, I would imagine it's actually worse than that then because it will be disproportionately weighted to the higher earning people.

Jimmy (2):

Yes. Cause you know, more senior people tend to spend more time in meetings. In fact, okay. Statistically, it might be only 28 percent overall, but middle management, uh, it was 35%. And I'd imagine for senior managers, even more

James (2):

Ah, well I was, I was very senior mate. I reckon I was scheduled into about 120 percent of my time in meetings. That's how important I was.

Jimmy (2):

that, see, this is where you, it falls down for you, James. You're an analyst and you're talking about 120 percent of your time. That's not

James (2):

Well, then that was what was paid versus what I did. Yeah.

Jimmy (2):

of course, lies, damn lies and

James (2):

yeah, yeah. But, to that point, it is a bit of a badge to honour, you know, the number of people who say, Oh, I'm in bad meetings all day. That

Jimmy (2):

is interesting because that's, that's people say it as if, oh, this is hard. This is a hardship when actually I think people are, like you say, they're proud of it. I mean, back to back meetings, that's how hard I work. That's how important I am. You know, and I think that's how people justify themselves.

James (2):

my job title. I was director of going to meetings. And colouring in. I was very good at colouring in as well, but yeah.

Jimmy (2):

you were, you were. But it is reflective of your popularity, your importance, the power that you have, the involvement you have in everything, how important you are to everything, how hard you work. Nearly everyone I've worked with at some point or another defines some sort of success around meetings and their attendance at meetings.

James (2):

Right.

Jimmy (2):

they end up making the world go round. It's

James (2):

well, so that's how much time we spend in them. Are there any statistics on how well run they are?

Jimmy (2):

No, they're not. But one thing I thought was interesting is that there's some, some data on how long meetings are on average, but also comparing that to the average attention span. And, 87 percent of meetings are actually longer. then people can hold their attention. So, you know, that's already onto a losing loser there.

James (2):

is the average attention span?

Jimmy (2):

18

James (2):

Okay. So if you hold your meetings down below 20 minutes, you're all right.

Jimmy (2):

15 minute meetings. It's the way forward clearly.

James (2):

why are meetings so badly run and why are they corporate treacle? What's your thinking Okay.

Jimmy (2):

Well, I think some of the things that I've experienced, you've got the classic, too many people invited, the wrong attendees.

James (2):

no, sorry, hang on, let me get on there, there's a pet peeve of mine. When you walk into a meeting, there'll be 20 or 30 people there, and the first thing they all do is pull out their laptops, and be just dreadful, why are they there if they're not there to pay attention?

Jimmy (2):

exactly. And, you know, poor timekeeping as well. in many organizations, it's okay to be late because you're busy, and you're important, and you hold up everyone in a meeting for the five or 10 minutes before you arrive. That's just wasteful of other people time part of being disrespectful.

James (2):

Well, it's interesting, I read something, something about operating theatres in the NHS and in some ways an operating theatre is a type of meeting, you've got a load of people there with a job to do, yeah, and one of the key reasons they were saying that the operating theatres were always, were empty and not being used, was that people didn't turn up on time, because the surgeons didn't turn up on time, the nurses didn't turn up on time, and because the nurses were there, the surgeons didn't turn up, and you just ended up with Empty operation rooms because people didn't turn up on time. So big deal, I think.

Jimmy (2):

yeah, exactly. And I think also,

James (2):

Although, hang on, I should be honest. I'm probably not in a great position to be Mr. Punctuality, am I?

Jimmy (2):

People don't need to know that, James, that, you know, you're, you're, you're one of the culprits but the, lack of purpose and structure in a meeting, I don't think a lot of meetings, it's thought out, why are we having this meeting, what are we trying to achieve, and how are we going to do it? So what's the structure of the meeting? So those often, cause me, issues. Also, and I would say this, we, I mean, in the last podcast we talked about strengths and one of my strengths is getting things moving. So funny enough, I found that at times meetings moved at the pace of the slowest person in the room. So who was the least comfortable with the subject let's move at their pace rather than, a sensible place for getting the job done.

James (2):

linked to that, you also get the situation where everybody has to have their say. So people just pile on, you go round and round making the same point for 10 flipping minutes.

Jimmy (2):

we used to bring, Stuff to various meetings and people have different levels of expertise in it. And therefore, you know, you want to have contribution that is based on some sort of expertise but we used to find that, everyone had to have a site. you had, the most senior lawyer in the company having conversations about, technology. They didn't have a clue about, they didn't have any interest in because everyone had to have a site.

James (2):

Wow. Yeah. and, and, and and you get people talking endlessly about the mundane points rather than the important ones. So you can have a conversation about a new system that you're putting in and people wouldn't have a clue about the technology. So they keep quiet, but you then have a conversation about, how many car parking spaces you need around the office. And it just goes on and on and on forever.'cause everybody thinks they need to have a set.

Jimmy (2):

it's like when you were a kid and people used to say to you, you've got one mouth and two ears and you should use them in that proportion. in meetings. that's not how people are. They just want to dominate proceedings.

James (2):

and then there's also the whole ego thing. People need to prove they're the smartest people in the room.

Jimmy (2):

Oh yeah. I mean, you know, we had a CEO who it didn't matter what the meeting was about, their only goal was to prove how clever they were. so it is personal agendas versus actually the agenda of the meeting.

James (2):

So what are the worst meetings you've been to? Have there been any howlers? What things really wound you up?

Jimmy (2):

for me, some of the most boring meetings where you didn't need to attend. Somebody had invited you to. because they felt they should invite you. They used to sap the life out of me how many times you come out and that's that's an hour of my life I'm never going to get back.

James (2):

yeah, I used to, I've got a list mate, I've got a list, so things used to wind me up. the worst one, was the guy I used to work for and he had a meeting at 8. 30 every Wednesday morning. And everybody who worked for him had to be there, and everybody who worked for everybody who worked for him had to be there. didn't seem to carry down that people had to get their kids to school or trying to get into work there's just something about respecting other people's time. That's one of the things um That the other thing was the doula's dishwater Corporate communication ones which were mandatory where you would get and you would be broadcasted to. I got caught out on one of those. it was like two hour meetings. I'd go to the gym. I'd go in and, I don't know, listen to it while I was on the treadmill or something like that. And that was all right until they had a, a breakout group at which point, unfortunately, I had to cut the call really quickly.

Jimmy (2):

I have done, I have done meetings for my Peloton before

James (2):

Have you? Well, it's not just me.

Jimmy (2):

definitely not. since we moved into a world of virtual meetings as well, that's put another angle on this personally, I thrive from getting a response from an audience, But when you're faced with a load of cameras off. and you don't get any interaction people. I'm not convinced they aren't on their Peloton, or, or cooking their tea, whatever they're doing. And, and people sit on a Zoom call, looking at their second screen, doing their emails. And that sort of lack of engagement that the virtual world has brought, and made acceptable, is, is incredibly poor,

James (2):

you get what you wish for. If you make the meeting mandatory, don't be surprised if people aren't that engaged.

Jimmy (2):

just being clear about why you're having the meeting, what's, what's in it for me? Why do I want to be at this meeting?

James (2):

one final one from me is people presenting really confusing information. I'm drifting off meetings a little bit here, but I went to one meeting once a month, and this bloke used to present this graph, which was a circle sort of graph, and nobody knew what the hell it was doing. This is kind of jank of looking at it. And everybody would be turning their head round to the side to try and work out what on earth it meant, the bottom of the cup. Oh, it's, yeah, dreadful. Anyway, so those are some of the worst meetings you've been to. But it's not all bad, is it? meetings can help.

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Jimmy (2):

You do need meetings to get stuff done a lot of the time. You know, you need to get people together. You need to have discussions. You need to be able to bounce stuff around. You need to be able to develop ideas. You need to be able to share information. You need to be able to get people engaged.

James (2):

Just simple stuff like making sure that actions get completed. I used to go to an operational meeting in the factory every morning, And they used to write the actions up on the board to make sure that the actions got done. each morning you'd have to explain whether the action got completed or not. So those sorts of triggers I think are really important

Jimmy (2):

There are lots of really good reasons why meetings are an effective tool in the workplace

James (2):

one, one of the positive thing about meetings is it's all about communication. You have to cooperate with the people around you. If you're not communicating with them, you're not cooperating. they are all important. So there you go, a bit twixt and tween on meetings.

Jimmy (2):

as a concept, they are not optional as individual meetings, they should be optional and you should think about them and you should do them well. So, As they are broadly not optional, it becomes imperative to do it, do it really well, do it really well, because you're going to invest a quarter of your time and a quarter of your workforce, quarter of your investment money into meetings to do them as well as you can. But it's not a big focus for organizations. You know what I mean? They just let, they just let them go. They let culturally, they let them, they run them the way they run them.

James (2):

that's really interesting so we talk about cost saving a lot and we have a whole stupid debate about you know Taxes and corporate hospitality, but we never have the conversation about how are you running your meetings?

Jimmy (2):

exactly. you are spending, like say a quarter of your, you know, your wage bill on meetings. Surely you want to make sure that's as productive as possible, but no, they cultures evolve in meetings where it's heavily governance and controlled or whether it's. Invite lots of people, whether it's turn up late, whether it's free flowing because we're all an innovative and we don't like structure, whatever it is, your corporate culture will have a way of running meetings likely is not the most effective.

James (2):

So what should people do differently? Are there models or anything that will help?

Jimmy (2):

funny enough, because I know you like a

James (2):

I'll do

Jimmy (2):

So I thought, I thought we could start off the new year with some, some models. And, I found a couple, which actually. I think we're quite useful and and I think if I had done them that then My makers have been a lot more productive. It's the five p's

James (2):

P's. I should be able to remember that. Go on, let's look at the five P's.

Jimmy (2):

Purpose is the first one. Is it clear why you're having a meeting?

James (2):

Right, well I have been known to say in meetings, what are we having this meeting for? What is it we are trying to

Jimmy (2):

Exactly. And that's one of your favorite things, James. I knew you'd like that one. But do you really need to have a meeting? Could it just be, you know, sometimes there's just an informal conversation. I just need to ask you a quick question. And I put in a half an hour meeting for a quick question. could it be by email, Can you slot in that quick question to another agenda? So first off, you know, what's the purpose? Do I really need to have a meeting in order to fulfill that purpose and ensure that everyone who then is in attendance is focused on that purpose? So that's the first thing, purpose. second one, participants. Who do you really need? You know, not who wants to be there, who you'd like to be there, but Linked with that purpose, who needs to be there? Third P

James (2):

Well, hang on, they need to be there, links to your next point process I suppose, but because they are decision makers or they are stakeholders or why would they need to be there?

Jimmy (2):

exactly. But being clear who it is and why you need them there, because because actually it is fundamentally disrespectful to invite loads of people to loads of meetings. They don't really need to be there because you're burning their time. Third, third P process, you know, how are you going to conduct the meeting? So quite often we'll think, right, we've got to have a meeting to talk about this decision, this investment decision, but have you really considered what the agenda is, the process, how are you going to get people contributing, what are you going to do in the meeting? payoff

James (2):

yeah,

Jimmy (2):

is, is there a

James (2):

well is there any bloody payoff whatsoever? Yeah,

Jimmy (2):

So what is the payoff? We want to now come out of this meeting. So what is that outcome?

James (2):

yeah,

Jimmy (2):

And finally, fifth P preparation. What does everyone need to do to have a really productive meeting? So it's a classic fail to prepare, prepare to fail and don't be lazy. I, I'd be honest, the number of meetings I went into in my career where I just thought I kind of broadly know about this subject, I can wing it. prepare. Have some thoughts. We've got a really interesting episode coming up around questions and just the need to prepare the questions you're going to ask in advance. So preparation, they're the five P's purpose, participants, process, payoff preparation.

James (2):

good. So there's a model. Go on, any other rules of thumb?

Jimmy (2):

Well, yeah, and I found an interesting one and I definitely would have fallen foul of this one nearly every meeting I went to, but it's the three by three.

James (2):

The three by

Jimmy (2):

this is to, this is to help people manage, self manage their contribution to meetings. So it's a rule of thumb that says, when you have a contribution to a meeting, there should be three people who contribute after you. Or three minutes should pass before your next contribution to that meeting.

James (2):

Yeah, there've been lots of meetings where I've been in, mate, where I've just been sitting there thinking, holy fuck, don't anybody say anything to me, I'm just keeping my head down. Does that fall into the three by three or

Jimmy (2):

Well, no, I mean, I think it works both ways, doesn't it? Three by three encourages you to think about your contributions, you know, either you're contributing too much or not enough, but I think general consensus is this should help people who, like to dominate the

James (2):

Alright, yeah, I know there's a couple of

Jimmy (2):

there's a couple of couple of model a model and a rule of thumb to help.

James (2):

and if I find myself in the position where I just am literally back to back meetings and I, yeah, losing the will to live at work, what, what would you do then?

Jimmy (2):

Well, I think that I think most people feel that they're in too many meetings. And one of the things that I've found, which is a pretty good practice, and it's worked in most workplaces I've been in, get somebody to have an independent challenge session of your, your diary. So. We get caught up because we are meeting addicts. We get caught up because our ego says we want to be invited to all these things. So we end up with diaries full of meetings. Whereas somebody independent can look at it and say, well, do you really need to be at that meeting? Why are you seeing that person? Is it because it's for their interests or yours? You know what I mean? So that challenge thing I've found on average, and I've done this many times, on average you can get. at least 25 percent of your meeting cut out of your diary by getting somebody to really challenge your thinking around your diary and how

James (2):

to be there or not. Yeah, because you've got other things to do, yes?

Jimmy (2):

The other thing I think for for senior people, I mean, we couldn't talk about meetings without mentioning P. P. A. S. So, you know, the P. A. Is most important person in a senior person's life and they should be treated accordingly, they often hold the keys to how meetings happen and how meetings are

James (2):

Oh, I always have as pa, bless her. Jane, her main outcome in life used to be to schedule me for every minute of the day. If she'd achieved that, she thought she'd have a good, yeah. She'd achieved your objectives.

Jimmy (2):

Jane used to do that so that you shouldn't have to spend any time

James (2):

Is that what it was? Yeah. Okay. Yeah,

Jimmy (2):

sensible strategy, but if you are a senior person managing the relationship with your PA and helping them understand what your priorities are and how you want to run things is vital. If you don't have a PA yourself, managing the relationship that you have with the senior people's PAs in the, uh, in the organization. is also key. So they are the gatekeepers. They can get you in or out of meetings. So that's another thing to have a think about. But essentially, I do think it comes back to the fact that we are addicted to meetings. So, you know, as the old Grange Hill, story goes, don't be Zamo. Just say no.

James (2):

How many people do you think who are listening to this know who the hell Zamo was?

Jimmy (2):

I know for those who you don't know who Zamo was? Grange Hill was classic program about school and everyone,

James (2):

who are well into their 50s, yeah. Yeah, 1980s special, come on.

Jimmy (2):

Zamo was, a drug addict at school and he fell under a bad influence and he took lots of drugs and the Grange Hill cast did a song that went to number one in the charts. called just say

James (2):

Yeah, I'll see if I can get a clip of it.

Jimmy (2):

and you'll also discover it wasn't just an 80s thing Grange Hill lives on.

Just say no, say no!

James (2):

Yeah, but there is, there's a very good cultural point there. I used to work with a guy called Bob. And Bob decided that he wasn't going to waste his time in the mornings in meetings He was going to do what he said was called thinking time when he blocked out his diary to put in thinking time And with the benefit of hindsight, that was a very sensible thing to do But actually you will remember that everybody used to take the mick out of bob something rotten because it wasn't cultural You weren't allowed thinking time. You had to have meeting time. So it's not as easy as it sounds

Jimmy (2):

that's a great point because I think unilaterally you can't change a culture like that and that doesn't work you do have to figure out how within your organization's culture you can um you can Can you

James (2):

So, there you've got it. Let's summarise that then. What are the key points you make?

Jimmy (2):

meetings are one of the biggest investments that organizations and people make in terms of their time.

James (2):

Yeah, and sorry, the summary. So much for the summary. Let me just pile it, The point you made earlier is all important, right? It's easy to say, oh, just meetings, meeting etiquette. But as you rightly said earlier on, what's it, what percentage of people's time?

Jimmy (2):

28%.

James (2):

28%. It's a phenomenal cost in organizations. Yeah. So it needs to be done right. This isn't just some sort of, stupid conversation just to pass a podcast.

Jimmy (2):

Yeah. And actually, the often popular utopian view of we don't need meetings, I don't believe is, is correct. I think meetings do help communication, collaboration, getting the job done when done properly. What we don't need is a load of bad meetings.

James (2):

they're expensive and they turn badly.

Jimmy (2):

Often, often. However, they are important to get stuff done. So we've shared some hints and tips that we've experienced of what bad looks like and what good looks like and some helpful models.

James (2):

P's I can because I'm looking at it now. Purpose, participants, process, payoff and preparation

Jimmy (2):

I think those are like, say, you know, it's a model that we found, but, it resonates with our experience of running effective meetings. I

James (2):

Cool. Right, I think we put that to bed then. Saved organizations millions

Jimmy (2):

If they listen to us, made them, made them more productive and more engaging workplaces. we, we will have great meetings now and there'll be no more of that. That's another hour of my life. I'm never going to get back.

James (2):

Lovely.

Jimmy (2):

so hopefully you've enjoyed today's episode on meetings. and if you want some more advice from James and I on how to, run effective meetings, then, yeah, get in touch.

James (2):

Super job. Speak to you later.

Jimmy (2):

Thanks everyone.

James (2):

Cheers now.

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well. Easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck, if your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver, we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance or your organization's, get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. com or james at jobdonewell. com.

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James Lawther

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Jimmy Barber

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