Wellbeing at Work With James Carrier Part 2

This week, we hear more from Leadership and Wellbeing Guru James Carrier.

Following last week's episode, we discuss who's responsible for wellbeing, and if this is such an obvious thing to invest in, what gets in the way? Why do many organisations tick boxes rather than invest in their employees' wellbeing, improving the workplace and, ultimately, performance and results? 

Much to James L's delight, JC has a model to help you think about and take action to improve your wellbeing.

Full of thought-provoking insights and pragmatic tips on improving leaders' wellbeing at all levels. Don't miss what JC has to say!

Transcript

0:03

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, a podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James: 0:17

Good afternoon, how you doing?

Jimmy: 0:19

I'm doing well James. How are you?

James: 0:21

Very well. Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to this conversation This is the second part of our conversation about well being with James Carrier so, Without much ado welcome back James. How are you?

JC: 0:34

Yeah, good. Thank you. I've got a bit of sunshine up here in Scotland and that boosts my well being. So there

James: 0:38

Yeah, that's probably it until next year I should imagine

JC: 0:41

Probably.

James: 0:42

I've been there. So before we dive into all of this then james, could you just give us a quick summary? What is well being about? Why should I be bothered?

JC: 0:51

Yeah, it's a great question. Hopefully people will have time to listen to last week's episode if they haven't already. But as a quick reminder,

James: 0:57

haven't already they should be taken outside and shot I mean, you know, just so you know where I stand on this But anyway going

JC: 1:02

Yeah, Yeah,

Jimmy: 1:03

the king of wellbeing James is,

JC: 1:07

being. Really what we've said is well being is this sort of sense of how well we're doing in our lives. It's a, it's a bit of a tricky thing to pin down from a definition perspective. There are lots of lots of sort of definitions out there, but a lot of them use this word subjective. So it's how do I feel about my experience in the world right now? And a lot of them also talk a little bit about how I think I'll feel in the future. So I think my life's pretty good now, I think it'll be pretty good in the future. Well, that sort of contributes to a sense of what my well being is. We also talked about the fact that there are correlations between the well being and how people show up in the workplace, their ability to make decisions, their cognitive function, their discretionary Effort and input, their relationship building capabilities, all those types of things, even in some places where I've worked, things like dealmaking is linked to turning up as your best self, which is linked to well being. So that's really what we talked about. We also said that. Taking an evidence based approach to well being interventions is helpful for organizations, and a lot of organizations don't do that, because it's a bit tricky and really you should try and take an evidence based approach.

Jimmy: 2:11

and that was one of my biggest Big takeaways from what you were talking about, J. C., was it's not the bowls of fruit and the yoga and well being weeks. It's actually genuine, evidence based stuff, really getting into the understanding of what well being is, what evidence there is of how it is in your workplace, and then what you do about it.

JC: 2:29

yeah, yeah, so that diagnosis up front matters. Find some evidence, that can be from academic theory, it can be from your populations, it can be from practitioners in the workplace, it can be your subjective views. Think about all of that stuff. Identify some problems. Figure out what you need to change. Come up with an initiative to change it. But go through that targeted diagnostic piece before you just come up with a solution. Yeah,

James: 2:53

Yeah. I do like a good model. Jimmy gives me a lot of grief cause I do like a good model, but are there any any models or anything that you would recommend that we look at if we want to understand more about wellbeing? All

JC: 3:05

a bunch of things you can look at out there. The thing that I go to the most, both in terms of working with teams and with individuals, is a model called the PERMA plus or PERMA plus four. Model that is a framework for considering subjective well being. So again, if you remember when we spoke last time, we talked about subjective being something I think about myself and well being being a measure, basically the quality of my interpretation of my experience of life. And so subjective well being is how good do I think my life is. Basically, how, how well do I think I'm doing? And the PERMA model, is a lovely way of looking at evidence based factors that contribute to an individual's well being. So PERMA five letters. Each letter stands for something different. And there's a huge body of research from the University of Pennsylvania. This is predominantly Martin Seligman and associates, looking at the factors that contribute. to higher reporting of subjective well being. So within PERMA, he highlights these five factors, and so P E R M A, that is positive emotions, engagement, relationships, meaning, and accomplishment. Okay, so, so this is the sort of, almost the sort of psychological and social side of things. And with with regard to each of these five factors, there are very strong correlations, but the more we have these the higher our self scored well being is. So positive emotions is the P. This is do we regularly experience or, or have exposure to positive emotions? And this doesn't need to be, you know, like ecstatic joy. It's just, oh, things are pretty good. Or here's a bit of calm, or here's a bit of hope, or here's some enthusiasm, or here's some contentment. Right? So, so do we live in a context where we get regular positive emotions? The more we do that, the higher our self reporting of well being is likely to be.

James: 4:47

Yeah.

Jimmy: 4:48

So is that we experience those positive emotions,

JC: 4:50

yeah, we experience them. Yeah. Yeah. Or, or,

Jimmy: 4:53

in the environment around us.

JC: 4:56

well, I w I would argue that it's both us experiencing and us being exposed to, and I'd say there's a, there's a strong relationship there. So we want to experience them, but from a team context, if we're, are around. Serenity, pride, sense of optimism, sense of hope, those types of things, then will have a higher level of

James: 5:16

Yeah. Cause these things are contagious. Yeah.

JC: 5:18

Yeah, they are. And it correlates to some other things as well. E here is for engagement.

James: 5:24

Yeah.

JC: 5:25

And what we're really talking about with E is this sense of deep deep work, or maybe flow, or being given the space to sink into your work and do it free of distraction. Which we know is missing in many organizations. So that ability to be, you know, at one with the music or whatever language you want to use for flow matters, the

James: 5:43

Well, so just a question on that then. So that is engagement with the work you are doing. We will talk an awful lot about purpose and have you got an organisational purpose and are people lined up behind that and is that important? Is that the same thing or is that

JC: 5:56

No, different, different. So, so really what's going on when we're looking at engagement is we're looking kind of for space free of rumination. So a lot of the way that our brain works is that we'll have a lot of self talk going on, you know, we'll have a narrative telling us how the world is going. And if we are. kind of not focused, quite often we get a lot of self talk that can be unhelpful, and that whole state is generally not terribly helpful for us. But if we get the opportunity to sink into deep work free of distraction, we go into that state of flow, we lose sense of time, we get fully absorbed, we're using our faculties, we're probably using our strengths, we might be operating at a boundary of capability, we might be being creative, but we're doing all this stuff, so we're totally focused. And there's something in that that's almost a meditative state that is in itself linked to. Positive subjective well being. So it's very different to purpose.

Jimmy: 6:45

And It's also very different from employee engagement as talked more generally about engagement with an organization, whatever this is, this is in the work,

JC: 6:56

and here we're talking about work. And again, you know, as a leader or manager, or an individual in the workplace, we can shape our exposure to Positive emotions. We can create space for deep engagement, right? We carve out time and give people space to work without distracting them. Well, lo and behold,

James: 7:11

And giving people work that they really want to do, I suppose, isn't it? Yeah. Just letting them, well, we talk about playing to their strengths, but giving people the opportunity to shine and do things that they find really to your point, engaging.

JC: 7:22

Yeah. And again, that goes back to something we spoke about last week about job design. How do you create bundles of work that are such that they fit together well and create space for this stuff? Absolutely. And, and we also know that the more we are using our strengths, which can be identified in lots of different ways, the more likely we are to enter into.

James: 7:39

And I mean, I think the flow thing is very interesting. I have found personally that when I have enjoyed my, work best it has been when it's been all engaging and you're just totally you almost it's like walking that tightrope of can I do this or can I not do this and I think I can do it and it's just the challenge associated with it

JC: 7:56

yeah, yeah. And that sort of boundary of capability is often part of that.

Jimmy: 8:00

What you said as well, Jesse goes back the episode that we did with Patricia Brooks earlier in the year about strengths and playing to your strengths and how much more, Your performance and enjoyment of work increases when you're doing a task, that plays to your core strengths.

James: 8:19

So there's the first two yeah engagement being the second so relationships how does that

JC: 8:24

Yeah. So, so relationships comes down to the fact that we are predominantly as a species, a social species, and you can look at sort of theories of evolution that talk about this kind of stuff, however you wish, But essentially what relationships say here is that for relationships that we have the relationships that we have can be an antidote to the downs of life. We have these phrases, right? A problem shared is a problem halved. Right? So, so our ability to connect with and engage in our social networks really matters. And there's two lovely bits to this, right? If we're part of a positive, supportive, connected group, those problems are shared and we feel supported by others. But actually something that's really great in this space is that if we help others, if we are part of that sort of pastoral care for others, if we do acts of kindness, if we are supportive towards others. If we do people favours, then we get a real boost to our self reported well being, and that's quite a sticky boost, it lasts for quite a long time. So playing within our relationships is a great way to support our well being. And something that's going on in the world at the minute that I think is really worth bearing in mind is that there is a sense of, Disconnective broken communities of loneliness as an epidemic. And as, you know, you can see lots of evidence that is linking increases in loneliness to reduced life expectancy as well as to reduced quality of life. So relationships matter.

Jimmy: 9:46

And I was talking to somebody about networking at work, know, networking is one of those things we've all got on our list. We should do And I was saying to one of the things back, often holds us is like, what's in it for the other person? Well, actually the opportunity to you. even if you're a stranger, you feel good about yourself. You feel altruistic when you've helped another individual. And know, just thinking about where those opportunities to, be in relationship with people, to network with people, It makes a difference to you as an individual and to them.

JC: 10:18

and I'd go further and say, and we don't even know how much it means to other people, right? We, people often don't even tell us what these things mean to us. To your point around male loneliness, it is an increasing problem. I've got some stats here, but they're a little bit out of date. In 1990, 1990. Percentage of men who reported having three or less close friends was 16. By 2021 it was 32. In 1990, the number of reporting no close friends was 3%. By 2021, it was 12%. I don't have them to hand, but more recent information has shown that to be even higher. And it's something like a quarter of men. say they have no close friends. And this, and when we say what's in it for us, this separation from the sort of social cohesive group leads to a lot of negative impact. It leads to reductions in health. You were talking earlier, I think you were going to mention that the U. S. Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, made his sort of main focus, The loneliness of Americans and he put out some statements and numbers that are kind of evidence based, but some people have picked a few holes that says effectively that the the effects of loneliness are equivalent to smoking about a pack of cigarettes a day in terms of reduction of life expectancy. So this stuff is,

11:38

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James: 12:11

So there you go There's the per now. I have to admit I wrote down M& A, but I was too slow to capture what they have

JC: 12:19

All right, well, let me jump in. So M& A is A? meaning and accomplishment. So, so to your point around purpose here, it's captured as M for meaning. Okay. So, so essentially what this is saying is that we want to feel like we are contributing to something more than ourselves. I've got some slight challenges and niggles about role of purpose. Within organizations, I think it's, it's potentially weaponized and unhelpful and, and, and a bit maybe exclusive in some ways as well. But nonetheless, there is clear. evidence that the more we feel that what we are doing contributes to something beyond ourselves, the higher our subjective well being. We have accomplishment. So that's the A.

James: 12:56

Yeah

JC: 12:57

And essentially this is just saying we like to feel like we're getting stuff done. We like to feel like we're making progress. We like to feel like we're ticking stuff off our to do list. You know, we're making stuff happen. We've got agency, we're affecting change, we're delivering. That feels good. So if we have in our work space to do that, then we have an increased reporting of subjective well being. And again, that can be outside of work. Am I getting stuff done? Huh, it feels good.

James: 13:22

Yeah, and I just to pile on that one then we had a one last week's podcast or two weeks ago We talked about meetings And being in back to back meetings and have some people wear that as a badge of honor but actually if you're in the Have a day in the office where you're just meeting after meeting after meeting and you don't get a damn thing done It's just soul destroying Yeah,

JC: 13:41

It's exhausting. And you're probably not engaged in what you do, and it's tough. so

Jimmy: 13:48

It's back to that, you know old, I call it probably old fashioned way of thinking about how hard I work and how many hours I do. And that's how I judge myself and how senior I am. And that's, you know, what a lot of us were brought up in believing success was, and actually we're now learning that ain't it. There's a lot more to life than that.

JC: 14:11

yeah, yeah. The Protestant work ethic brings a lot of challenge to the way that we think about our experiences. And it doesn't make people happier. And you read these things, you know, like, executive has breakdown on private jet, realizing they've wasted their life, right? Like, these stories are out there.

James: 14:28

So there's i'll do like a good model That classifies I think that works for me. Yeah, it's very good

Jimmy: 14:33

wellbeing now, now takes on a whole new meaning for James. Now it counts. It matters because it's, got a model.

JC: 14:41

it's got a model, it's

James: 14:41

Madness, it's

JC: 14:42

and, and you know what, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna quickly run through a little bit of a supplement to it, so, so, that's PERMA those are the

James: 14:50

got a supplementary model, is that what we're saying?

JC: 14:53

Well, it's really a permaplus model.

James: 14:56

Ah, okay, go on then. So here's

JC: 14:58

fuller model. Yeah, so, so those are the sort of psychological and social factors. They're things that you can shape in the workplace. As a leader or manager, you can shape those for yourselves. But what this doesn't really take into consideration in itself is the sort of biological nature of who we are as people. So other factors that correlate significantly with Improvements in well being are the types of things that you'd think about in a more traditional well being space. So, from a physical perspective, we have things like diet or what we ingest. Right? What do we drink? Do we drink a lot of alcohol? Do we take drugs? Do we smoke? Do we eat heavily processed foods? What do we do in that diet space? Do we get the appropriate nutrition in a balanced way that we need? Exercise is another key factor. Exercise has wonderful powers on us. This doesn't need to be going out and running marathons and climbing mountains, but this is regular. activity that elevates our heart rate. Sleep sleep is one of the most powerful ways to improve somebody's well being. Many people sleep less than they need to, and if you look at interventions that increase somebody with a sleep deficit by about an hour a day, you'll see a marked material increase in their reported well being. Time in or with nature, matters. So if we have access to open spaces, green spaces, spaces by the sea, time with animals, all these things contribute to our well being. That's part of the reason that there are things like therapy dogs, and nature retreats, and doctors will prescribe fishing, right? Like, these things matter. If you can get people out, again, you're away from distraction and have time in a good place. Then Do we give ourselves space to relax? Do we give ourselves activities that recharge us? Do we manage our self talk? Do we find gratitude? Do we embrace things that help us learn? Do we have an ability to regulate our actions if we find ourselves overwhelmed? All those types of things, that emotional self awareness and self management, and the practices and tools associated with that if we develop those, they also lead to improvements in our well being. So those are the, that's kind of the supplemental plus bit of the model. So it's really Prima plus V, with V being vitality.

Jimmy: 16:57

It's like a model and it's an equation, James. This is like the stuff of dreams for

James: 17:02

So what about barriers? And so I'm sold. Why don't organizations do this? What are the barriers that prevent people from focusing on well being properly?

JC: 17:11

yeah. A lot of people don't understand, don't prioritize. A lot of people themselves are in roles that are unspecified and unclear, so it's hard for them to feel that they have space to do it. A lot of people have a lot of workload. It's hard to step back and create meaningful interventions. It's not a quick fix. It's very easy for somebody to be given a side of a desk well being project. Great, that's the way a lot of this goes. Oh, you're already busy. Would you mind picking up well being? Sure, I'll copy and paste something and then I'll be able to tell everyone that I've led our well being initiative, right? So, so we have a lot of a side of a desk allocation of things that are here. We anchor in on lots of sort of things. faulty thinking about where impact sits. We don't have access to evidence. The world is flooded with myths and fads and fashions and things other organizations have done that we think must be the right solution. But fundamentally to me, I think there's a lack of understanding, a lack of investment and a lack of clarity because it's hard. Any behavioral change is hard, right? Changing behaviors, which is often what's required to change well being, is a really tough thing to do. Changing culture is a really tough thing to do. If you could change a culture with fruit, you'd just do it. But it doesn't work that way. And I think that's, that's a bullet sort of summary of some of the challenges that are out there. One other piece as well actually, which is where it tends to be owned within organisations. So who owns it, I think matters. What's the level of sponsorship? Where does it sit? For me, it's the type of thing that's a strategic imperative for an organization, but it's often owned by or delegated to somebody at an exec level who's one or two steps removed from the true power in the room,

Jimmy: 18:52

don't you get into J. C. The of wider moral question though, when you get into the the ownership of this, which is, know, as an, as an employer of people where people spend a third of their life. In your care, do you not have a duty of care for those people as humans?

JC: 19:13

This is an interesting question on post inauguration day in the U. S., and I think what we're getting at here is a sort of an ideological view of the world, right? Do we live in a libertarian world where we maintain our own existences? Or do we live in a more paternalistic sort of European social care model in which organizations have some accountability to those around them? And I'm not, you know, here to form any judgment on it, but that is a judgment. That whoever's running organizations and societies make. Is the role of an organization to do this, is safeguarding a factor, right? Or is it not? Those are the decisions that are made out there. But yes, to your question, absolutely.

Jimmy: 19:55

But I think, I think it even applies at every level because, you know, if I'm a, if I'm a team leader and I've got 12 people working for I can make decisions. on their well being and I can care for those people or not regardless of my organizational culture. Now I know the system that I work in will impact that, but I do have some choices. I do have some ways that I can behave or not. Um, So I think we all have to, take some Responsibility for thinking about how much we really genuinely care about that. And how do how do I sleep at night? know, I think there will be people out there that say that I was pretty um, okay about things and I took their well being seriously. It's a choice you make about how it's gonna, how you're gonna sleep at night really. Forget about the performance thing for a second. There's a moral choice that you make.

JC: 20:45

know, and I like that. I like the way you describe that. And I like the use of the word moral. And I'll often talk about there being a moral case and a business case. And it's both of those things. But One thing I would say is that a lot of managers and organizations see their role as maximizing shareholder returns, and sometimes that can feel contrary. to the investment in the well being of the individuals in the workplace, like you, I very much think that for me as a manager, as a person, to sit within my own moral code and what I value, I would focus on the well being of my team.

James: 21:20

Well, and that really, I mean, so that really depends on how you view human resources, doesn't it really? So if you think of it as an. Humans as being a resource to be exploited then you would take that approach Yeah, as opposed to if you take the long term view of yeah I want these people to work in my business for a very long time and give their all to it Then you take a very different approach So Moving on from the sort of philosophical stuff as a if you know, if I'm a team leader, yeah What are the sort of things I can do and what are the pitfalls? So, yeah So be listening to it thinking, yeah, this is important. What should they be doing?

JC: 22:00

Yeah. Well, it is important. One of the things that I'd say is a really good starting point is to put yourself first. Have an honest reflection on yourself. Are you in a place where your well being is sufficient that you can take on pastoral care for others? One of the things that we hear as a question is, who cares for carers, right? How do we manage that burden of supporting others? So one thing to think about is your own well being. You can start by doing things like going to the University of Pennsylvania website. And from there you can access a whole range of diagnostics. By Martin Seligman and his colleagues.

Jimmy: 22:33

We Can put the, we can put the link in the episode notes.

JC: 22:36

great. Yeah, that'd be great. And so you can do diagnostics and think about how you're doing across the different factors. Reflect on the Prima model, think about that vitality piece. A woman at Yale, Laurie Santos, has a wonderful free program. You can look up if you look up Laurie Santos and well being. She's got a multi like a multi stage program that's a sort of behavioral change program to support well being you can consider that for yourself. So starting with yourself is a good thing to do. The next thing that you can do is you can speak to your team. What does well being mean to you? How is well being? What other factors in work that affect it? You can start to open up that shared understanding of what it is and, and demonstrate that it's important. One of the things we know is that if you want to shift culture within a team or an organization, you need to think about what leaders pay attention to. So leadership attention matters in terms of shifting culture. So talking about reflecting and paying attention to these things will influence the culture in such a way that people will believe that well being matters. So have those conversations. Role modeling. is another of the core factors that shifts culture. So, talk about this, and role model positive behaviours in relation to wellbeing. That might be going out for a run at lunchtime to let people know that it's okay. It might be turning up at 10 in the morning because you've had a dentist appointment and being open about the fact that that's what you've needed to do. It might be talking about how things have been a little bit tough and you're getting through it because you're getting support from your line manager, whatever it is, role modeling and to some extent, vulnerability can make a big difference Yeah, so those are some things you can do. Think about yourself. Another thing I'd think about is, are the demands on people reasonable? I'd look up the JDR, job demands resources model. I'd explore what the demands and resources are that you think your team are experiencing and see if the balance is right, if you can shift them. And I'd look at the and think about, you know, whether you are structuring and designing your week in such a way that you're providing the permafactors and speak to your team about the vitality aspects associated with that as well. I think those are probably the main things that I'd, I'd sort of call out as things you could do to, to focus on this.

Jimmy: 24:46

Fantastic. I mean, it's a real useful list of things. I think that one of the things that, you you always have to think is how, how do you pick. Some of those things to do, because if you try to do all of what you've just described, you know, it just, it wouldn't work. up? And I love the bit that you say about Look at, get yourself in the right space first, because you can't look after people, you can't do a good job, you can't lead people well and care about them, unless you're looking after yourself. And that's something that people overlook. There's almost like a stage, you know, understanding, have the conversations about it. What does it mean to us? Look after yourself. Then how do you pick up some of those initiatives that you might want to change within your team? And yeah, it's, it's model frenzy. James will be in ecstasy with all the

James: 25:31

Well, but it is, it's classic Theory X and Theory Y, isn't it? Really? And it really comes down to how do you manage your people, yeah? Do you believe they are people who just need to be beaten to get the most out of them? Or do you believe if you treat them properly they'll give you more?

JC: 25:45

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even if you believe that they are to be valued, it can be hard to do that if you're an organization that doesn't do that. So being that sort of firewall, that umbrella that holds all the shit off of your people can be a tough place to be. That squason middle can be tough if you're an organization that makes it hard.

Jimmy: 26:03

and a tiny, tiny thing that we've touched on even if you're working in the most toxic environments, you can't change necessarily the whole organization, but you can thank people for doing a good job. You can thank people for helping you. You know, there's just stuff like that. that makes a big difference to people's day. So there's no position, there's no situation where you can't do anything.

JC: 26:27

100 percent agree.

James: 26:29

So that's a fascinating conversation James. Thank you very much. Is that just you know in the interest of creating a nice little summary I like a good summary, How would you summarize that? What are the five or six points you'd really want people to come away from over this into this?

JC: 26:41

Yeah I guess the way people experience their workplaces shapes the quality of their lives. They'll spend 80, 90, 70, 000 hours of their lives in work and as a manager, you've got the privilege of being a huge part of that journey for somebody. You can help create a much better life for them as an individual. And I can't really think of anything more worthwhile. and improving the experiences of other people that we get to know. So it's a privilege and I think it should be embraced, and it's possible to make small changes to the way that you show up yourself to improve your well being. It's possible to make changes to the way that you show up and manage your team, to change the experiences and well being of those around you, to positively contribute to your team. To contribute to their life experiences, and I'd say in doing that to contribute to how they go out into their communities, to their families, their neighborhoods, the way that they show up with others, and generate some really great spillover crossover effects that will help somebody else have a better life as well. So it's a really wonderful opportunity to to help improve the world. I think it would be great to have a little reflection. How are you? How's your team? Maybe prioritize the things that you think could be better. Choose one thing and create a little initiative, evidence based, focused on that, test it, pilot it, experiment with it, hold it gently and iterate and maintain an ongoing focus on well being. As you and your team change and adopt new habits and behaviors that lead to better outcomes for yourself for those around you and for your organizations. So, yeah, that's

James: 28:12

Super i'm

Jimmy: 28:13

I think, and I think, J.

James: 28:15

Sorry Hang on, i'm gonna have a conversation with jimmy about well being on this podcast because we need to make some changes, mate

Jimmy: 28:22

Well, I love JC, your know, look after the people and make the world a better place. I mean, that's, you know, pretty impactful stuff and you've really helped unpack some of the thinking and the theories and some insights and ideas about how you can go about doing that. Thanks everyone.

JC: 28:37

Great.

Jimmy: 28:37

Thanks, JC.

James: 28:39

thank you very much for your time. Very

JC: 28:41

Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure.

James: 28:43

Alright, cheers now.

28:44

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver. We can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance or your organization's. Get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. com or james at jobdonewell. com