A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Understanding Leadership Power Dynamics

• Jimmy Barber and James Lawther • Season 2 • Episode 29

Share episode

Send us a text

This week, we delve into the intricacies of leadership power and its impact on workplace dynamics. We explore power’s misuse and ethical implications, highlighted by current events and personal experiences. We also share our 'research'  and insights - all aimed to encourage self-awareness for leaders to wield their power conscientiously and effectively for positive outcomes. 

You can also see if you are more intelligent than James by benchmarking your scores on LinkedIn puzzle games!

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, a podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James:

Good afternoon. How you doing?

Jimmy:

Good afternoon, James. I am doing well. How the devil are you?

James:

I am very unhappy.

Jimmy:

Why? What's wrong?

James:

I've been playing this stupid game on LinkedIn. Have you seen, it's called Queens.

Jimmy:

Funny enough?

James:

You haven't? Well, so it's a bit like, it's a bit like a chess game. Let's just leave it, that sort of logic puzzle.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

And I've been playing this game. I've got a record, you know, a streak, I've got a streak of about 30.

Jimmy:

well

James:

And every time I do it, it tells me, you know, good job or epic performance or, or, or. Anyway, I was looking at the performance stats

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

It took me nine minutes and 32 seconds, and underneath, no, underneath, it says average time to play. One minute, 43. So that was

Jimmy:

James? I'm embarrassed for you. I'm

James:

that.

Jimmy:

for you.

James:

That was bad. But then, then

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

I told Mrs. Lauder about it. She did it in one minute and two seconds. First time she plays. And even my daughter, she did it in under one minute, 20 as well. So I'm just I'm just thick father at home,

Jimmy:

I think you should give up, mate.

James:

you know, it's a disaster.

Jimmy:

think it's for you.

James:

Gotta know when you beat. Anyway, how about you?

Jimmy:

I'm doing well. I have had very brief visits to

James:

I.

Jimmy:

and to the dentist for various things this week. So I am just glad that we have people who know their stuff and are caring enough to help you out when you need them. So thank you to all the medical staff who've attended me in the last week. I'm a shit patient as well. You know, James,

James:

Is that right?

Jimmy:

Yeah, But yeah, I'm an awful patient I'm not very obedient

James:

yeah.

Jimmy:

james, we are talking about the power that leaders have with the aim of helping people to become more conscious and more thoughtful and more effective in how they use the power that they have

James:

So go on then. Why are we talking about power?

Jimmy:

Well, something someone said to us recently on one of our episodes was that being a leader is really a privilege and you have responsibility as a leader. We then talked about fear in the workplace as well, and the impact that people have

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

of fear of others. We were, discussing the, the fact that leaders have a huge amount of power on people's life and it's one of the biggest influences in people's work life. So, so we wanted to talk about. How you can consciously and unconsciously wield that power. And people do it, but they don't do it with a lot of thought. And so I think we want to explore the power dynamic and how it can use it for positive outcomes for everyone.

James:

So, go on. Tell me how does the power dynamic impact the workplace?

Jimmy:

Well, I think it does all the time. I mean, it really impacts how you perform I can personally correlate the performance and enjoyment I've had at work with who my boss has been throughout my

James:

Oh,,

Jimmy:

I can, see how people have wielded power over me and how it's driven my behavior and, you know, guess I. If you take it more widely, it doesn't just impact people at work, it impacts way beyond that.'cause there's the, the leadership that you have at work in terms of who you work for. There's the leadership you have to show in terms of influencing people's behavior.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

as well, it impacts us in our everyday lives. And, you know, whether that's, leaders of our society. So I mean, the, the case in point at the moment, I know we talked a lot about it, but Presidents and prime ministers,

James:

Yeah. So you really are talking about 360 degree power then. So it's not just power downwards, it's power up and power out. I.

Jimmy:

It can be. Yeah, absolutely. And case in point at the moment, the, the biggest impact of leaders wielding power on us is presidents and I mean, we talk about an awful lot, but are there two people on this planet? More than Donald Trump and Elon Musk who are wielding power that is

James:

Wow.

Jimmy:

impact on people's lives.

James:

Yeah, an absolute power. Was it absolute power? Corrupt? Is that what they say? Or an ab No. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

Jimmy:

And those two have absolute power.

James:

Well, and what's really interesting, I saw him, you must have seen the video with Elon came into the val office with his kit. And

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

yeah, so who's got the power in that relationship then? Is it Donald's or is it Elon standing there with his child who's just brought into his boss's office? It's all very strange, isn't it?

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

are all sorts of power cues everywhere. I.

Jimmy:

It also impacts what we buy, what we like, what's popular, what's not, how people behave, what the kind of norms are around society. So it really does impact every part of our lives. you look at what people are buying and what influential people, what famous people, what, pop stars, sports personalities, what they are buying, and you aspire to have them so they have power and influence over your buying habits.

James:

Yeah, because you wanna be like,

Jimmy:

Yeah. And, and you know, the the book that we've discussed before, the atomic Habits

James:

yeah.

Jimmy:

one of the things that James Clear says in that book talks about the fact that, we look at people in power as to they, they set our habits, our behaviors.

James:

Yeah, that's an interesting point.

Jimmy:

Of the things is that often people don't use power for good, do they?

James:

Well, yeah, and we can see some misuses of power going on at the moment, actually.

Jimmy:

Like name our favorite one.

James:

So the thing that gets me at the moment is the whole thing that's going on in academia, in the states particularly the Columbia University thing and suspending, was it Middle Eastern and African Studies, just by taking away the funding. So that really is, I have to say, a misuse of power. Trying to get people to think the way you want them to think because you've got the power to do so.

Jimmy:

Just building on that. In America, Trump and the Republicans and Elon Musk are claiming to be the, the protectors of free speech. But actually when you look at it, what they mean is protecting people who agree with them. It's not free speech at all. It's just their, it's their opinions, isn't it?

James:

Free speech. Looks like Elon at the top of my Twitter feed. Is that what you're telling me?

Jimmy:

Exactly.

James:

Because he free to speak. Yeah. So there's any research then. I know you like a bit of research. Have you found anything about power?

Jimmy:

You know me, James. I do like a bit of studying. there is quite a lot of research done around power and, and leadership one of the in interesting studies that I was reading about was around power and ethical leadership.

James:

Yeah, go on.

Jimmy:

the, the, this was done by someone called Kish in Gahar in 2009. And I guess the key insight which I thought was very timely was leaders with unchecked power or more likely to engage in unethical behavior. So if you want leaders to behave, then you have to hold them accountable. And you have to have some checks and balances. And that's what we see, in a lot of societies or in organizations as well, don't we, where people start to dismantle the checks and balances the controls, the governance, you

James:

Well, do you know, and that's interesting, we can talk about the Americans again, but just that happens at all levels. So one of my pet peeves, my pet pet peeve so I go to a gym

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

right outside this gym wouldn't think it to look at me, but I do. But right outside this gym, there are some disabled car parking spaces.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

And there's one bloke who is, he's a big lad. He obviously has been lifting weights for a very, very long time, but he seems to think because he's big and strong, he has the right to park in the disabled cast basis. And so it is almost, you know, the more powerful somebody becomes the more they think they can get away with stuff.

Jimmy:

Yeah, and, and like you say, you see that in your local gym. You see that in organizations where, leaders want to start to dismantle the things that stop them. being able to make decisions, being able to decide on policies, the governance that gets in their way. They start to dismantle and there is a danger that what follows isn't always good.

James:

So the old adage, power corrupts probably true.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah. So there's one. What else have you got for me?

Jimmy:

The other thing that was quite interesting was a piece of research called The Power Paradox. And what

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

saying was that people behave in a certain way before they have power. So they often are very. Pathetic, fair, generous on their way up. When they get into power, they lose those qualities and they become much more self-serving, interested in their own things, and much less empathetic. So to your point, power does corrupt. both of these studies show how power can shape the behavior of the individual and sometimes it can change the behavior of the individual. So just being conscious about the impact that power has on you. As you rise through the ranks of any organization or through life in general, I think it's important to keep yourself anchored on that.

James:

Well, I think that's the really important point. Yeah, absolutely.'cause it's not just about them. It's not about the bodybuilder in the gym. It's about you. Yeah. When you get that management job and the next management job, and the next management job, and then how are you actually showing up?

Jimmy:

Yeah. And, and the impact that you are having on people's lives. I.

James:

So really there's a big self-awareness question in that.

Speaker 2:

The show you're listening to right now. Brings you insights to help you improve performance and enjoyment of work. It takes a long time to produce, but we think it's well worth it. It's all in the name of helping you get your job done. Well, all we ask in return is that you share the link to the show with someone that you think would benefit from it. And if you haven't already, click on Follow the Show wherever you're listening to this podcast right now. Anyway, let's get back to the show.

Jimmy:

The other bit of research, which I thought was even more interesting was French and Ravens have five bases of power.

James:

Yeah, I remember this 1, 19 59

Jimmy:

Yes. So when you are a meal whipper snapper,

James:

with me whippersnapper. Yeah.

Jimmy:

basically this was saying that there are five types of power that leaders use.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

Right. There's legitimate power, which is basically what you are given. So you are promoted into a job leading a team.

James:

Yeah,

Jimmy:

that power to, you know, run that team

James:

yeah. So it's almost delegated power. It's what you are given then. Yes.

Jimmy:

it's what you are given

James:

Yeah. Position power. Yeah. Okay.

Jimmy:

has something in it.

James:

Yeah. All right. I've got it.

Jimmy:

is reward power, and

James:

on.

Jimmy:

your favorite one, James. The ability to incentivize people.

James:

Okay. Yeah,

Jimmy:

The

James:

yeah.

Jimmy:

is the opposite of that coercive. So this is controlling people through punishment. So you've got

James:

All right. So I've got carrot and stick power. Got it. Yeah.

Jimmy:

The fourth, and this is where it gets a little bit more interesting, is, is expert power. So this isn't,

James:

Okay,

Jimmy:

isn't this is power and influence that you have. Through your expertise and your knowledge. So you as an analyst, people know the skill that you have, the expertise that you have, you have influenced by having that skill.

James:

so, well, that's why everybody ships it when I get out a spreadsheet. Is that what you're telling me

Jimmy:

They

James:

or is that.

Jimmy:

you are shutting up pretty

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

as well.

James:

Yeah, yeah,

Jimmy:

the

James:

yeah. But now I recognize that you do see that quite often in people. So there are people who you just know that they know what they're talking about, and when they start, you pay attention. Yeah, I totally get that.

Jimmy:

because of their knowledge.

James:

Yeah. And that's not positional at all. It really is about they know what they're talking about. Yeah.

Jimmy:

it builds up over an amount of time and it's often based by, on the knowledge that you have on anyone particular subject. And

James:

I got it. And the fifth one,

Jimmy:

is referent power.

James:

reference power.

Jimmy:

this is inference based on respect and admiration. People look up to you based, again, not on how you reward them, how you punish them, not even on your knowledge or your role title. This is how you are as a person and do you get that respect and admiration. Now, the interesting thing about these five areas of power. Is that leaders who rely on the bottom two, so

James:

Expert power and reference power. Yeah.

Jimmy:

Tend more frequently to build trust and engagement in their teams. So people are much more likely to follow them. Much more likely to unlock people's discretionary behavior, whereas the first three that I mentioned, which is the power of your position, the carrot and stick, if you rely on those three types of power, you don't get anywhere near the levels of engagement, trust, the relationships, the effort that people wanna make, the, you know, the desire to follow. So I think often, if we think back to the leaders that we've worked with, who are the ones that you would've thought, I wanna do a great job for them. I wanna you know, really get some results from'em. Or, I enjoy working with them.

James:

Oh yeah, absolutely. And those are the people who've got, as you say, either expert power or referent power. The legitimate power is a bit of an interesting one, isn't it?'cause that can be a bit, should he, shouldn't he? But the reward power and the coercive power really is manipulative, I think in one way or another. I.

Jimmy:

Yeah. And the legitimate power, IE the positional power you're given by being given a job. it's a bit of a, a mixed blessing because that gets you in the game, obviously, but it doesn't get you very far. somebody has thought well enough of you to give you that role. are already starting to, to listen to you, to show you a bit of respect, to start to follow you. But they're not gonna do it very far, are they?

James:

No.

Jimmy:

It's only when you win that, that respect from them.

James:

Well, but then that's quite interesting because. You've got the the power of people who. When they've gone from the organization, you would not help them at all. Yeah, so the top, the first three legitimate rewards and coercive. When that person is no longer in the position to have that, they can no longer exert any power at all. Whereas the people who you've worked with in the past, you exert either expert power or referent power that's much more long lasting.

Jimmy:

It is, and I always think that one of the ways that you can see that is if who've worked with them before, follow them to new organizations, new teams. Because, if you have that or reference power, and that's the way your leadership style has been, people are more likely to go from organization to organization with you.'cause they trust you. If you think about the, the carrot one, so, just constantly rewarding people. That doesn't mean that you're getting their loyalty or their admiration, does it?

James:

No.

Jimmy:

it can't, it's still quite transactional.

James:

So another thing is that if you look at those five types of power the expert power and the reference power are interesting because they will operate upwards and they will operate sideways as well. So, you know, your chief executive may well listen to you because you've got expert power and you're known to know what you're talking about. So he will take your recommendation. They also obviously operate downwards as well as the other, the three, the legitimate, the reward and the coercive power. They only ever operate downwards, and they only ever operate when you're in a position to use them.

Jimmy:

And I think that's one of the interesting things about power and influence and leadership we tend to think of leadership in a very linear fashion in terms of an organizational hierarchy when actually, you're right, there are times when you have to lead your chief executive or your team, a team member of yours have to lead you or you have to lead your colleagues thinking about how you go about doing that. Where you don't have positional power and you can't reward them and you can't beat them with a stick. It does force you to think more broadly about your leadership capability, doesn't it?

James:

And the other thing as well is I think you can. You make judgements about this very quickly. You decide what type of power people have. So if I was to, for example, not having met either of the guys, I only ever seen them on the news. But if I was to compare Donald Trump to say Barack Obama,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

you have a very different view on what type of power they exert. Yeah. So it's almost charisma is a factor in here.

Jimmy:

It is. And I think that the other thing that goes along with that is, depending on the type of power that you exert will be how effective you are, how people experience you, how do they enjoy the impact you have on their lives and the long-term sustainability of the outcomes that you managed to get as a leader.

James:

So have you ever tried, here's a question for you then. So of these types of power,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

which of you tried and what were the what were the outcomes? I.

Jimmy:

I think I think back earlier in my career, when you're slightly young and naive, you can lean quite heavily on, on your positional power. So, you know, I, I'm the boss, I've got the authority here. and, and that's becomes your way of doing things. I've also been

James:

I am sorry. Let me cut across there as well. And you feel the needs to tell everybody that you've got that power as well? It's,

Jimmy:

And, and you probably look for opportunities to use that power, that aren't necessarily, you know, you get into, you've gotta win arguments, that aren't, they don't matter.

James:

That's funny. I remember vividly in my early twenties, I started my career with Unilever and the way Unilever was structured at the time, they had job classes and job class 20 was your Unilever management grade. If you made that, you were on your way.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah, the rest of his car were all working together and only one of us had made the job class 20. The other three of us in the car were all plebs down in the low teens somewhere. And then this guy said, I'm the only Unilever manager in this car. You should do, as I say,

Jimmy:

Did you push him out the car?

James:

it didn't go well. I can tell you it's not a winning strategy.

Jimmy:

No. I guess I've been guilty of that at some points. Not necessarily in a car with unity for people, but I think also the carrot and stick is very easy. It's very, very lazy. You know, when you come to giving rewards, bonuses, or. Telling people off, punishing them, whatever. I think those are very transactional ways of doing things.

James:

Well, and I don't think they're that effective.

Jimmy:

No,

James:

so there are two for me. So I have only, I think, well, people will shout me down and worked with me. I can only think of one occasion where I've used coercive power. I gave some my right boiling out over something. And I then felt so bad about it. I had to go and apologize to him afterwards. And he obviously thought I was a TWA and he was probably right. So I'm not sure that worked terribly well. And when I've had coercive power used on me yeah, you're just looking for the opportunity to rebel. So that one, the reward one's quite,

Jimmy:

Joan. Just on that coercive power one area where I have to be honest, I think I haven't done that well in terms of using coercive power is probably with my children.

James:

yeah. Okay.

Jimmy:

I tell them off and I will be angry with them, not because I really believe. Whatever they've done wrong, is that bad? But I think they need to learn that, sometimes people will get angry with you if you do something wrong. There is a consequence. And in that sort of simplistic way of dealing with your kids, I, I definitely know that I have, used that sort of power on them in the past. Don't think it's very effective, but definitely been guilty of that.

James:

Well, there's the yeah, that's interesting because that relates almost to the whole thing about training dogs.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

So how do you stop a dog soiling the inside of the house? Shall I put it like that? Yeah. The last thing you should do is rub its nose in it.

Jimmy:

Yeah. Yeah. I have to confess as it is very tempting when your dog, when you discover that your dog's shit in the hallway at

James:

Soiled mate.

Jimmy:

sorry.

James:

the oil, right? Yeah,

Jimmy:

can you beat that out James? We can have soiled

James:

Worry.

Jimmy:

my dog is, when my dog has soiled in the hallway. I find it very tempting to rub its nose in it, but yeah, you know, you're right. They, they don't learn that way. And, and actually they do say that that dogs bit like humans learn from reward much more than punishment. give people treats, give people, give dogs treats, and they learn their, their new tricks.

James:

What we're saying here is you should treat your employees like dogs.

Jimmy:

I, I treat my dog so well, they're the best treated things that

James:

Yeah. Okay.

Jimmy:

so I wouldn't complain about that. You must be much more experienced than me at using. Expert power'cause that is one of your superpowers. But I know, when I've worked in certain environments where I've got to learn a lot about that environment and I'm seen as somebody who's knowledgeable about whether it's processes, customers, history, what you should do, how you get things done, whatever it is. When I'm seen as a go-to person, I know you do get a lot more respect, but yours, you definitely, you've leveraged expert power, haven't you?

James:

Yeah, and I've lent on that quite a lot, I think, through my career. But then that's just yeah, that is where I've got my power from, from understanding what's going on and being able to explain the data and things like that. And people do, if you are clear and yeah, if you are clear about it, but also you don't use it as a carrot or a stick. So it's just, you know, this is what's going on. Then people do listen to it when you try and morph that into something else and it can get a bit trickier.

Jimmy:

the way I saw you wield that expert power you did in a really skilled way that you never made people feel stupid. I. So it wasn't about you looking clever, it was about you helping people. And I think that's quite a, a subtle shift, whereas a lot of people I've seen who supposedly have that expert power, they don't really, they're using that positional legitimate power of their role to show I'm clever, aren't I the smartest person in the room?

James:

Yeah, I have been guilty of that from time to time, but we'll gloss over that and move on. Yeah,

Jimmy:

James, in

James:

but it doesn't help. It doesn't help, Yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy:

from my perspective, I think in my career I might have been given legitimate power by getting certain job roles at times, but I moved, tried to move to referent power, so building relationships with people I. Building trust with people trying to understand them, trying to care for them as individuals. So then they were working for me as a person as opposed to me as my role. Yeah, I'm sure I wasn't always completely successful in that, but I definitely didn't try to lean heavily on the other parts of the power that we've uh, discussed. discussed.

James:

Yeah, so what do we learn from all of that? Then what would our summary be?

Jimmy:

So I think some of the things that we learn is that the leader's power is, as you described, James, a bit more holistic than just straight up and down. And, the power that exists to shape people's behaviors, their happiness, their performance is quite huge.

James:

And I would say it's almost that measure of the man. You sort of, you can see how a woman, how somebody is using that power and you make decisions about that or you make judgements on that person because of it.

Jimmy:

So if you think about leadership, as we said at the outset, I. As something that is a privilege and something that has responsibility because of the impact you have on people's lives. I think then it, you really do have to be thoughtful about how you are behaving and how you are wielding your leadership power. I.

James:

Yeah, and just a bit of self-awareness I think is really important. Understand the way you are showing up.

Jimmy:

Yeah, and we've talked about the five types of power that that leaders wield. So being thoughtful about which one of those you are, using will enable you to have a positive impact on people's lives and to deliver more long-term sustainable improvements to people's performance and enjoyment at work.

James:

Very good. I've got a test, you know, the test, it's the who's gonna turn up at my funeral test. That is a good, you know, when you sit there and you think, is this bloke gonna no what, who's gonna turn up at my funeral? And or would I go to their funeral? And if you ain't going to their funeral, they haven't wielded their power terribly well, you know, and just wonder of the people who've worked for you, how many are coming to your funeral? I think quite a lot for me. They'd be happy to see the back of me.

Jimmy:

Just to be

James:

Anyway. Got that cheerful. No,

Jimmy:

you've probably got a spreadsheet that tells us when it, when it's gonna be.

James:

they've all, they've all got a probability score against them. Anyway, on that cheerful note, I think we'll call it quits.

Jimmy:

So hopefully you've enjoyed today's episode and whoever you are, your thinking thoughtfully about your leadership in the future.

James:

Super. Speak to you later.

Jimmy:

Thanks everyone.

James:

Cheers now.

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are out of control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised just keeps failing to deliver. We can help if you need to improve your performance, your team's performance or your organization's. Get in touch at jimmy at jobdonewell. com or james at jobdonewell. com

People on this episode

Head Shot

James Lawther

Co-host
Head Shot

Jimmy Barber

Co-host