A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Why Belonging Matters: The Key to Loving Your Work

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther • Season 2 • Episode 33

Share episode

Did you know the sense of 'belonging' at work improves performance by 56%, reduces attrition risk by 50% and decreases absence by 75%...

Want to find out more? Check out this week's episode where hosts James Lawther and Jimmy Barber discuss why belonging is so important and why it's not just changing your behaviour to 'fit in'.

Research, examples and mildly "amusing" anecdotes help bring the subject to life and provide pragmatic ways to unlock the sense of belonging and reap the benefits of satisfying this basic human need.

You will also hear from the biggest April fool of recent years and receive a health warning regarding macho behaviour in the gym!

Got a question - get in touch. Click here.

Speaker 4:

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James:

Good afternoon.

Jimmy:

Good afternoon, James.

James:

What are we talking about today

Jimmy:

Today we are going to be talking about belonging.

James:

Ah, okay. And why are we talking about belonging then? Is this some sort of hippie cult thing we're on? What are

Jimmy:

No, no hippie cults here. People with a high feeling of belonging report a 56% improvement in performance? A 50% drop in attrition and there is a 75% reduction in sick days. So if you're talking about improving performance and enjoyment at work, belonging is something you need to consider.

James:

Okay. But before we get there, where do you get those statistics From?

Jimmy:

Was from the BetterUp survey that was done in 2020.

James:

Okay. And was that them saying what they thought or was that what the employees said? That they

Jimmy:

That's what the people said they thought.

James:

Okay.

Jimmy:

If you're looking to improve performance, this is something that you need to consider. But what have you been up to?

James:

Well, mostly this week I've been up to infanticide.'cause I am, I am gonna murder my eldest daughter. I am gonna murder my

Jimmy:

I thought she was, she was. She was just got a new job. She was like the.

James:

she was, she was cruising, but so I am, I was in a cafe over the weekend and I'm busy tapping away. You know, I'm one of the internet generation. I'm doing the whole sort of working in a cafe thing. I've got my laptop there. I'm typing away. I've got one of these AI sort of checker things which I use to help me edit. And I said to her, this thing's driving me nuts. It's obviously got some sort of positive sentiment analysis going on.'cause every time I type in no, it changes it to, yes. Yes. And not the same thing. God knows why. It does it. It does. It's driving my, driving me nuts. Here I am thinking it's some sort of new age California thing, you know?

Jimmy:

Yeah. Yeah.

James:

And she just splitted a tear out and just wet herself laughing. And she said, no, dad, it's'cause two years ago, on April fall, we went into your computer, we set the auto correct so that whenever you typed in No, it'd say yes. And whenever you typed in, yes it.

Jimmy:

Two years ago, Jay,

James:

And here I'm thinking it's this flipping bit of software that I

Jimmy:

so,

James:

yeah.

Jimmy:

their April Fools prank has been winding you up for the last two years.

James:

Two years. Yeah.

Jimmy:

She is. She has just outdone herself. Not only did she get a job, she's now wound you up for the last two years. Wonderful.

James:

for throttle. So, and the worst thing was everybody's looking, she's wetting yourself laughing. And all these people are looking at me at this cafe like, what the hell did you do to her? Yeah. So there you go. That has been the highlight of my my week. Thank you for asking. How about you?

Jimmy:

Well.

James:

Oh, you can gimme some bullets about the football

Jimmy:

I'm gonna give you some bullets about the football because Forrest won and they're back in the hunt for European football. But I'm all eyes this weekend on the semi-final I'll be at Wembley. So by the time you're listening to this, you'll know the outcome on whether I'm happy or sad. But what I was gonna tell you, James, my week was overshadowed, nothing football related. I was in the gym last week and I got,

James:

the

Jimmy:

I was in the gym.

James:

you have a

Jimmy:

No, no, I'm, I'm, I'm regular in the gym, but I was doing quite a heavy workout, really proud of myself. I've got the last exercise and it was this really shit ranted exercise I didn't wanna do. And I thought, no, I'm powering through. I'm gonna do this exercise. And it was for the muscles at the top of your back. So I did the exercise. About half an hour later, could I move the top of my back? It was absolutely gone. I then spent the next three days virtually unable to move, not able to sleep. It hurt every time I breath. Everything just for this pressing on through and doing that last set of reps.

James:

Well that, that be a lesson to you, Jimmy Schwartz. enegger,

Jimmy:

Exactly. Stay out. Stay out the gym.

James:

Not good for your health. So talk to me about belonging then.

Jimmy:

So belonging is, is a fundamental human need, and it's something that we don't really consider when we think about work performance there was a theory by somebody's called and Leary, which they say is a fundamental human need, and their work showed, it links back to the workplace. So. People who don't feel belonging apart from the stats that I shared upfront. It can limit collaboration, innovation, motivation, and it does lead to stress, anxiety, and, and disengagement. But if we think about the stuff that we have all study, which is Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

James:

yeah, are you shaking? Made bow, meister and Leary up.

Jimmy:

No, but if I had, I'd be proud of it. You know what I mean? It's like,

James:

Yeah. Okay.

Jimmy:

proper, proper.

James:

Yeah, it does sound proper. Maslow. Something we do know that exists. Maslow's hierarchy of

Jimmy:

Yes. And actually belonging does form a part of that. Now, for those of you who don't know a lot about Maslow's Hierarchy needs, James, you can correct me'cause this is a model and so we are in your territory now. Maslow's H hierarchy needs basically says that, certain human needs have to be met in order for you to. Function better and live a better life. And at the top of Maslow's hierarchy needs, they've got what's called self-actualization, which I like to think of.

James:

what they call that now?

Jimmy:

What'd they call now?

James:

Podcasting.

Jimmy:

If only, but it's like the zen paradise at the top and at the bottom you've got the, just the D, you know, the need to have heat, light, shelter, food, the basic human needs. And in between those, I. You have love and belonging, and so they are a fundamental part of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. So once you're satisfied the lower needs of safety and security, you move into that sense of love and belonging. So that's why belonging is important.

James:

Well, I'm gonna move into the camp of statistics that I'm making up on the spur of the moment. But there is, there is something about people who haven't got family,

Jimmy:

Yeah

James:

dying earlier'cause they're less happy, which is all about belonging, isn't it?

Jimmy:

no, that's true.

James:

it's very good for a man to be married, increases his lifespan. I'm not sure it increases the lifespan of the woman, but that's another point altogether. But yeah, men die sooner.

Jimmy:

Yeah, and that's, again, it is back to the sense of belonging. So that does show it's a human, you know, fundamental human need. But what we're talking about is the sense of belonging in the workplace, and therefore the impact it has Now, the sense of belonging is different from. Just fitting in. So what we're not talking about is fitting in or conforming are we

James:

Now you've got this thing called code switching. So what the hell's code switching?

Jimmy:

it's about the feeling the pressure fit in, and it's when you start masking your true self and your true behavior. And Deloitte did a, study in 2019 where they were talking about the workplace and they found that 60% of employees felt that they had to hide part of their identity to fit in. And that's definitely not a sense of belonging. And so. There is this tension which exists, where there's the desire to fit in, but you're not accepted for who you are. And that's where you get into a really difficult position, don't you?

James:

All right, so you're trying to belong, but it's not

Jimmy:

And it's not really natural for you'cause you can't belong as the person that you are.

James:

That's a bit like when you see those videos of Marco Rubio sitting next to President Trump,

Jimmy:

looks incredibly uncomfortable. Just try to fit in.

James:

obviously,

Jimmy:

Doesn't belong there.

James:

no, he doesn't.

Jimmy:

Well, the balance of that James is, look at JD Vance. He's happy there. He is belonging and fitting in nicely. I. So it can bring and a negative pressure and I mean, we've all felt peer pressure. Am we?

James:

Well now there has been quite a lot of interesting research into this. So the first one was a guy called Solomon Ash, who was a professor in one of the big American universities. He did a study and he, got some cards on those cards. He draw three lines, A, B, C of different lengths, and then he got another card. And on that one he drew a line, which correlated to one of those other three lines. It was obviously line B, so yeah, same length as line B, but then you've got people in the room and you ask them, you know, which line matches this one? but he had one person who was the, the Guinea

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

and the other people in the room were actors.

Jimmy:

Right.

James:

they'd start off and they'd all say, yeah, line B matches this line. Line B matches this line. They're all agreeing. But as they went on to the experiments, then the other people in the room who the actors would start saying, then no, it's line A that matches and it was clearly, BB was the one which was the same length, but they'd all start saying it was line A. What was really interesting was the person, the Guinea pig

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

with the other people in the room. And so yeah, they started to give out what the new, to be deliberately the wrong answer, just so that they conformed with the other people in the

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

it's really powerful stuff.

Jimmy:

great example of peer pressure. You'll say the wrong thing just because everyone else is saying it, even though you know it to be wrong and that's I guess, the example of the difference between belonging and fitting in. Because you can't be comfortable saying the right answer when stuff that you know not to be true

James:

and then the other experiment was the Stanley Milgram experiment, which you have heard about the the teacher and student experiment.

Jimmy:

right? No. Go on. Tell us about that then.

James:

So what Stanley Milgram did do interestingly was Solomon ass sidekick was his understudy. But what he did was he set up this experiment they had a teacher and the students and the teacher gave the students some words to remember, pairs of words. And the student had to learn the pairs. But then if the student got the pair wrong, what the teacher did was they'd give them a little electric shock to see,

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

the

Jimmy:

I.

James:

helped'em remember, you know, the fear helped'em remember. But once again, right, it was a big con. The student was an actor that were just testing the teacher, But each time they went through it, each time the student got it wrong, they increased the voltage and increased the voltage. And increased the voltage until they were, you know, effectively giving the student a lethal dosage of the electricity. If they got it wrong. And the student would be giving the big, oh, and don't gimme any more. I'm gonna have a heart attack or whatever. But because the teacher, the had a, somebody in a white coat standing next to'em saying, no, no, this is the experiment. You must keep going.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Something like two thirds of the people that were doing the experiment actually happily gave people electric shocks.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

They went all the way through to being lethal. So, you know, the whole thing about happened with the Nazis and the Jews? Yeah, it really was, I was just following

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

It's amazing how malleable we can be to fit in.

Jimmy:

And that's never a defense. So there is a, a stark difference between belonging and feeling part of it because you're your natural self and then the conforming where you have to behave or have beliefs that are different from your natural self.

Speaker 2:

The show you're listening to right now. Brings you insights to help you improve performance and enjoyment of work. It takes a long time to produce, but we think it's well worth it. It's all in the name of helping you get your job done. Well, all we ask in return is that you share the link to the show with someone that you think would benefit from it. And if you haven't already, click on Follow the Show wherever you're listening to this podcast right now. Anyway, let's get back to the show.

Jimmy:

So should we talk a little bit about our own personal experiences of.

James:

Yeah.'cause I'm sure people are dying to hear about my personal experiences. How about you go first?

Jimmy:

Okay. So I guess for me, that sense of really true belonging to an organization, I'm not sure I've ever really experienced, and this is different from I like working here or I don't, but do I feel I really belong? I think I felt that I belonged in teams. So when we work together in a team, previously I think I felt I belonged as part of that team and part of the people of that team, and I could be myself and I was valued for myself. But that, that I think is different from an organization. And I think I've never really completely felt I fitted in, you know, I often had a different background from people.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

Different education, different behaviors, different likes. I dress differently. So there was always things that set me apart, but I quite enjoyed that. I quite liked not being part of the problem, and I certainly moved on from at least one organization where I felt that I was considered to be part of the furniture, and as soon as it happened, I needed to go. So I think on one hand. I quite liked it being slightly different, but on the other hand, I don't think I really felt that strong sense of belonging that we are talking about today. And I feel that I probably missed out in a way of not really thinking about all that or being open that, or wanting to be different all the time because when I enjoyed belonging to a team and I have on a number of occasions, I really felt part of that and felt relaxed and happy in myself.

James:

Yeah, I think it's positive. I mean, personally I think there are, if I look at the organizations that I've worked for, there are one or two where I really felt I belonged with the organization. I think that has a lot to do with the values of the organization. And there have been a couple where I really didn't feel I belonged and. Yeah, I did things to fit in. I'm a bit of the Stanley milk and I did things'cause I was told to do them,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

I really didn't fit were the right things. I have to admit, I've never electrocuted anybody, but I've sacked a couple of people where I thought I really, this person doesn't deserve to be sacked. And I suppose arguably that's as bad. So that's the whole sort of fitting in thing.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

organizations I've felt, you know, do the things that you have to do, but you don't feel good about it. It's very stressful. I think role. So there've been some roles that I've done, which I really thought were me,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

I really hated it. So when I started my career, I was a shift manager and I hated it, which just wasn't me at all. I then moved into a research and development job, and it was just much more mere. It was much more inquisitive, much more creative, and those were the things that I like being so. think there's an element of do you belong to a role as much as do you belong to an organization? A piece of advice I was given was, what you should do is you should move jobs until you find somewhere where you really belong. And when you find that place, you should stay there, which is great advice, unfortunately told me about 10 years, too late after. I think that's, that's a very good piece of advice. The other thing I suppose is I'm a little bit like you, there isn't a little bit of do you really want to belong to this big corporate organization? Are you a corporate person? So there is a little bit of sticking to the ma'am, which maybe I am guilty of, but

Jimmy:

Yeah, you and me both James. But I think what I would draw out of our different experiences is that belonging can be to an organization, but maybe belonging to a team or belonging to a role is just as important because you still get that sense of, I'm in the right place, I feel. happy in myself and I'm being myself and you perform, better when you're even in a team or a role that you feel you really belong to.

James:

Oh, absolutely.

Jimmy:

So I don't,

James:

becomes important,

Jimmy:

yeah.

James:

let people.

Jimmy:

So I don't think it has to be just, I belong to an organization in that sense. So that being the case. Anyone who is, who is leading a team of people, they can, shape and impact their belonging regardless of what the organizational context is, can't they?

James:

Yeah, so, well, that's an interesting question. So what would you do if you're managing a team? What would you do to help people belong in that team or

Jimmy:

Well.

James:

make them feel like they did?

Jimmy:

I think there's a few things that you can do. I think making sure that people feel psychologically safe is, is an important part of it. That there are, there's plenty of research that's been done that show that people thrive when they feel that safety because they feel that they can speak up. And being able to speak up is often, part of. I'm fitting in for who I am rather than I'm having to conform in terms of attitudes. I think that's one thing. I think there is also a point about values the importance of aligning your values with the organization's values, so that naturally feels that you're gonna fit in because there is that sense of alignment. But I also think the other thing is, do you really understand and value the people in your team as people, not just as in. This is the job they do. This is the function they perform. This is the performance, the outcomes. Do you really know them well as people and value them as people? And do they really matter to you? And how do you show that they matter to you beyond, you're a top performer, therefore you really matter to me. You're a bottom performer. You matter less to me. You know? Do you really understand'em? Do you know, you know, their personal circumstances, the things they like, the things they're doing, what's troubling them in life, what their ambitions are, all that sort of stuff. So I think as leaders letting people speak up. Making sure that, you're aligning values and people's values and also, valuing them as people. I think there are three key ways that leaders can shape the sense of belonging in their teams.

James:

Do you know? I don't even think you need to go that far. I am in, I would say that the place where I felt I belong, most of all, just very interesting, you'd walk down the ca corridor and your boss's boss's boss would say to me, hello James.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

And just simple stuff

Jimmy:

Yeah. Yeah,

James:

people knowing your name. Just really, really valuable stuff. So it is just a, you know, it's not difficult to get people to feel like they belong, but you do have to try at it.

Jimmy:

yeah. And that's the thing is it is, it is making an effort and it is, you know, like a lot of things that we talk about on this podcast, it's just being thoughtful about it and making a conscious effort, isn't it?

James:

Yeah, I think there's also something else that senior managers can do when they really think about belonging in their organizations. And that is all about giving people a purpose and values that they start bang on about all the time. But something that people want to belong to, something they feel proud about. Because if people feel proud about what they're doing and go home and, you know, talk to their husbands and wives about it,

Jimmy:

pride does create a sense of belonging.'cause you, if you are proud of something, you have a natural attachment to it, doesn't it? So I do think you're right.

James:

so I think that's something that a senior manager should, can and should do to improve the sense of belonging within their organization. But the world has got a little bit more tricky with the whole hybrid working thing, and. It's much more difficult to make people feel like they belong when they're sitting in a home office miles away from everybody else. So what would you recommend there? What should people do?

Jimmy:

No, I think, and I think you're right James, is that sense of being on your own and the sense of belonging. So your example was a great one, which is just as you pass somebody in the corridor when you're hybrid working, you ain't seeing your boss's boss's boss's boss in

James:

You can't

Jimmy:

the corridor in your house. Are you? Let's be right.

James:

And actually you don't want beaming in over your bloody television

Jimmy:

No.

James:

into your bedroom. Let's be honest. Yeah.

Jimmy:

Exactly. So I think there are some things that re, you know, remote working leaders can do. I do think that you have to be much more intentional about your connection points. So you know, because you don't just pass things, you have to create the right sort of, whether it's one-to-ones team meetings, but informal, not just the formal. I've got to talk to you about your performance today. I've got a performance huddle to do. How'd you, Create some of those intentional connection points that are a little bit less formal. How do you make sure that you recognize people publicly? So it's more difficult in a, in a hybrid working environment, but you do have team time. Do you use any of that team time for recognizing people's performance more publicly? So creating that more sense of belonging to the greater, rather than it just being a one-to-one thing.

James:

Yeah. And again, I just think it's about, you don't have to go that far. It's just recognizing people on calls, dragging people into conversations, having a little bit of banter,

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

of those things help people feel they're part of a team.

Jimmy:

but in the having the banter type stuff, it's making sure that people are comfortable and feel that they can be themselves,

James:

Yeah, absolutely.

Jimmy:

And, and so it is those tho those spaces you create and making sure that they are comfortable at being themselves and they don't feel that they've got to conform and behave a certain way. So I think there are ways of overcoming the hybrid working.

James:

But if you're in a team, then, so let's just assume your boss is an idiot. I've had a couple of those, but let's just assume

Jimmy:

your book, if you haven't read it, manage by Morons. Get a copy on Amazon now.

James:

I've had a couple. What do you do when you're in a team? How do you get people to feel belonging when you're not a boss?

Jimmy:

I think when, when you're not the boss, I think there's a couple of things you should think about. One is your own personal self-awareness. So think about times when you felt you really belonged and what really made a difference to you. What was it? Was it the values? Was it the behaviors? Was it the people? What was it that created that sense of belonging? So you can think about that and replicate more of that. There is a bit about the, the values and the connection. You can think about it personally, about your values. And also I'd say just ask yourself that question of when. When did others around you make you feel like you were really part of it you really belonged? And what can you do to pay that forward? So I think there's a bit about the self-awareness of thinking about. Belonging and what it means for me and what actions I can take for myself. And then there's the connection with others. Because back to our point, the belonging isn't necessarily going to be a belonging to a big corporate PowerPoint that says, here's what we're about and here's our strategy, and I really belong to that. It's about belonging to relationships and others. So building those connections, asking people. Specific questions, really intentional, thoughtful questions. We did a great episode on that to go back and listen to the episode we did with Graham Rainbow Bird on questions, but really being thoughtful about the questions that you're asking and how do the questions you ask help people in terms of feeling their belonging, showing a bit about yourself, so showing your vulnerability. That often helps encourage others to do the same. It helps them to be their natural selves, and as we said, there's the recognition both to, do it regularly and, and, and publicly.

James:

Yeah, and an interesting question. Do people belong to organizations or do they belong to teams?

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

probably you just feel like you belong to your team. You feel that you belong to the people around you. However, I started my career, one of the we used to go on these big management shindigs, and you'd be in a room with. But the guys at the top table were really good at engaging everybody, making it feel like it was one just big team. So it really is about how do you get people to feel like they're part of the team?

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

that.

Jimmy:

and I think, if we think about it in terms of, the performance. Uplift that we talked about. Improved performance, lower attrition, lower sickness. I think that, that you can get those benefits by belonging to an organization. I. As you did, as you touched on there, where you felt you belonged as part of the whole thing. But I think equally, you can probably get those performance improvements by just feeling that you belong in your part of the organization, whether that's your unit or your team. I think it's still probably the same when we start this conversation I was thinking about, it's all about belonging to the organization. But I think you're right, James. I think it, it can be, I get that sense of belonging and the. And happiness that brings me by belonging to a team.

James:

So you heard it first here. Jimmy Barber thinks I'm right.

Jimmy:

I didn't say that.

James:

that very often? Did you did? I've got it on records. We'll go back over it and we'll listen to it. So go on there that says blathering on about belonging. So let's summarize it. What will your key take b.

Jimmy:

well, belonging is a hugely important thing in terms of improving performance and enjoyment at work,

James:

yeah. Belonging and fitting in are not the same thing we might think we want to fit in to help us belong, but when we're just fitting in, it's crystal clear that you're just trying to fit in ref. My comment about Marco Rubia.

Jimmy:

Belonging can be belonging to a team and as a leader of a team or a team member, there are plenty of things you can do to create the right environment for people to be their natural selves and feel that they really belong to that team.

James:

Yeah. And then the other thought from me is if you're running a big organization, I think it's beholden upon you to create the purpose and values that people take pride in, because if they've got pride, they'll want to belong.

Jimmy:

All right.

James:

you go. of wisdom.

Jimmy:

Hopefully you've already enjoyed today's episode, and if there's any questions or comments, please drop us a line. Thanks everyone.

James:

See you later.

Speaker 3:

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are outta control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised, just keeps failing to deliver, we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations, get in touch at Jimmy at@jobdonewell.com orJames@jobdonewell.com.

People on this episode

Head Shot

James Lawther

Co-host
Head Shot

Jimmy Barber

Co-host