A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

The Insider's Guide to Getting Stuff Done, With Vick Grimes

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Vick Grimes • Season 2 • Episode 35

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This week, hosts James Lawther and Jimmy Barber welcome special guest Vick Grimes, a project management expert, to help them refine their delivery skills. Skills which are critical for everyone at work.

They explore the need to create clarity, define processes, manage stakeholders, and sustain change. The discussion covers strategies for getting things done effectively, including breaking down tasks, managing risks, and recognising small wins along the way. 

Whether you’re leading a complex project or tackling daily tasks, this episode offers practical advice to improve your performance and enjoyment at work.

You will also be reminded of the power of laughter and sunshine to improve your mood, as well as the importance of choosing the right film to watch with teenage children.

Got a question - get in touch. Click here.

Speaker:

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James:

good afternoon. How.

Jimmy:

Afternoon, James. I'm very well. How are you?

James:

I'm fabulous. Thank you very much. It's a nice spring afternoon here. What are we talking about today?

Jimmy:

Today we have got a special guest who has been mentioned on this podcast a number of times, she has helped us many, many times in different organizations be successful. And so we've invited Vic Grimes on to share some of her secrets on how she gets stuff done.

James:

Very good because she has super human powers, as far as I'm concerned.

Jimmy:

she's made both of us look good. Many times. James,

James:

Not an easy thing so welcome Vic. But before we talk to you, I'm dying to know what Jimmy's been up to all week, honestly.

Jimmy:

this week, James, I went to comedy at Nottingham Castle on Friday night and Sunday night, and I was reminded Of the power of laughter. So if you're feeling a bit down, a bit miserable, two things help sunshine and laughter.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

I definitely felt my mood was significantly better by the end of the weekend.

James:

Was it as funny as this podcast?

Jimmy:

It was not quite as funny as you, James, but I know

James:

That's what I like to hear. I have aspirations. I

Jimmy:

I was expect, I was partly expecting you to come up and, perform open mic with James Law there.

James:

I should be performing in a working man's club somewhere up near Mansfield. Yeah, that shook me up, wouldn't it?

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

in the face very quickly.

Jimmy:

Legend in his own lunchtime Anyhow. What were you being up to? James?

James:

I have a film recommendation for you. I took my 16-year-old daughter see a film called Holy Cow, which almost very intellectual, it's a French film, but it was effectively about some 17-year-old boy getting his rocks off for the first time,

Jimmy:

Sounds

James:

which actually was, yeah, very intellectual, but it was in French. But not recommended when you're sitting next to your 16-year-old daughter. I'm not sure who was more embarrassed, her or me, but there you go. That was my, the highlight of my week. Anyway, moving on. So the art of getting things done what we call in this,

Jimmy:

Vic's making us look good. I guess. Vic, do you wanna introduce yourself?

Vick :

Yeah. Hi, I'm Vic. And apparently I've made Jimmy and James look good previously, which is no mean fake. but yeah, I've been working in project management for. Oh, God, I'm gonna say like 30 years nearly. Any kind of project, lots of different things, but fundamentally just about getting stuff done and getting do stuff done well at work.

Jimmy:

And I think it's important to add before everyone switches off that this episode is not about project management such. You might be the expert project manager, and we've been involved with you in doing everything from, digital transformation through to bit making buildings to regulatory enforcement, to organizational design, everything. But I guess the reason why we want to get your insights to David was, you are probably about the best person we've worked with for just getting stuff done and that is something that we all have to do. So Vic, how, how did you get into project management?

Vick :

Good question. I started on a graduate scheme in retail, in, in. In stores, boots, chemist actually, and actually didn't like the hours. So went on a, a project, in head office because they wanted someone who had worked in stores had the right experience and was quite organized. So I went up to Nottingham to do that and. Loved it. I mean, apart from the fact that it was Monday to Friday, nine to five, which was much better when you were in your twenties and want a social life. I think this is where my whole attitude to it comes from. I knew nothing about project management, but it so happened I had the organizational skills and the way my mind worked and broke the problem down and worked it out. So being able to use those skills and then at the end of it, deliver something, a thing, whatever the thing was was, it just, just played to everything that I really, really enjoyed. In work

James:

Good. So if anybody wants to get stuff done, where would you recommend? Where should they start? What's the, what are the most important things to think about?

Vick :

I, I always think at the beginning what's important is what is the stuff.

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

can't get stuff done if you're not clear what the stuff is. So you might think you know what the stuff is, but do you, and if it's the same as the person who wants the stuff doing. Have you got the same understanding? So being really clear it is you're trying to, to deliver and whether that's through asking questions or working through how are you gonna do this thing, but being really clear, what is the outcome that you are tr aiming to deliver?

James:

So are you accusing of US woolly polls in the past? Is that, is that, yeah.

Vick :

totally. I do remember I know I've told you this anecdote, but I do remember one of you who shall remain nameless, but his name begins with J I'll give you that. it keeps me of not dealing well with ambiguity, but my theory is, well, ambiguity's great, but my job is to work out what is the thing and how can we then it in a sensible, efficient way. But if you don't know what you're trying to deliver, it's quite hard to get there and make everyone happy.

Jimmy:

Just as, as the person that probably was the one who said that you are, I don't think I, you can't deal with ambiguity. You don't like ambiguity. I think both of you, Vic, in terms of execution and getting stuff done. And James, from an analytical perspective, both are very good at drilling down onto the specifics of a problem. I always would start up here with a problem and you guys both would force I. Me and others to think about what is it you're really trying to solve? But you're right, if you wanna get stuff done, either solve a problem, improve sales rates improving play engagement, or build a building, you need to start with the end in mind.

James:

And why do you think people are ambiguous? Do you have a theory on that at all? I mean.

Vick :

I think, and it's back to style. So Jimmy just kind of touched on it. So, I also remember at a similar time getting the advice that some people, and I would, I would say, Jimmy, you were in this category and, and multiple people I've worked with as well over the years. Thinking aloud, the advice I was given was. If you're in an hour long meeting, don't take any notes till the last 10 minutes. We've picked someone like that, that is not just any meeting in general.

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

because someone who's thinking like that, it's kind of how they form their thoughts and get their clarity. So we all get there in different ways, but the important thing is that we all get and understand the thing that we want to deliver. And it's, and it's aligned. Otherwise I'll deliver something beautiful at the end. But it was, I dunno, stripy when you wanted it spotty. So I think it's just understanding everyone's different style in how they develop ideas or, or get to conclusions.

Jimmy:

And how do you differentiate Vic, I would guarantee in most meetings that I was in, I would've told you what the answer was in the first 10 minutes. It just probably wasn't the right answer or what I really wanted. So how do you differentiate between what's important and what's not?

Vick :

Good question. You have to play back?'cause you also might not be interpreting it correctly,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

be playing back constantly. So real clarity and clear communication and obviously the more you understand how someone works, that helps and the more you get to know them and understand are they likely to get to the right answer in the first 10 minutes or not?

Jimmy:

Playing back what you think you've heard as an answer is often a good way of doing it. Because when you hear, back to you what somebody has interpreted, you can then critique Now that's not quite what I meant. Then you can evolve it Definitely a good technique to use.

James:

And I think a lot of the time people may know what direction they want to go in and they're pushed for times. They probably haven't thought it through properly and actually spending the time with somebody and just getting'em to be really crisp about what it is that they do want. It's something they probably haven't done for themselves. So it really is a question of helping people think through, well, what the hell do they want?

Vick :

Sometimes you need to know the problem you're trying to solve, and actually part of your role could be to solve it. So the person asking, asking for it might not know and might never know, and it might be part of my role to work out what is, what is the answer that's gonna solve their problem. So being really clear on the problem you're trying to solve, well as the outcome you're going to deliver is really important.

James:

So there's a question of listening to people and playing it back. Is that all there is to it or is there more to it than that?

Vick :

So there is more to it than that. That is critical. It's really important. But one of the added complications, and I think one of the hardest things to deal with is we've worked out what problem is we're trying to solve. We've got a, an agreed outcome that we both understand and we, we both, we both know it's gonna have stripes on. We're both comfortable with that. then we all go off and do our own thing, and then actually someone changes their mind, but that doesn't filter through. And so I'm carrying on delivering the thing with stripes on. And actually something's changed over here, it's not a once and done. How do you keep that conversation going so that you can continually readjust or make sure you're always on the right journey to deliver the right thing.

James:

Okay, so it's not about nailing down a scope and sticking to it religiously, but what it is about is making sure that everybody knows what the scope is, even if the scope has changed, is that.

Vick :

and things do change, don't they? Right. So I remember when I did start in. Project management and the things you are taught of the, you know, the stuff that, that turns most

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

cold is about, you have a scope and if you want to change that scope, there's some kind of fancy change control and, and there's obviously certain types of work you need that kind of thing in. and the benefits of it are when people do change their minds, it's, it's all recorded. But for me, the real skill is when you, don't need All that governance and all that strict change control. But you absolutely need to understand that, the world moves on and things change and adapt and you've got to, and in the course of doing a piece of work, I've got to make sure that by the time I do deliver it, it's still the thing that was needed in the first place.

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

do you keep that, keep that control throughout?

Speaker 2:

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James:

So that's rule number one. So be clear what the objective is and realize that the objective will change over time, which is fine, just long as you're on top of it. Yeah.

Jimmy:

what then, what's next? Vic?

Vick :

So I would say it, it's thinking about the how, so how are you gonna deliver something and don't lose sight of the problem you're trying to solve and the the outcome you're going to deliver to solve that problem. But how are you going to do that to get there? So I think this comes back to said around understanding what you're aiming to achieve at the end, and then chunking it up into how are you gonna get there? And sometimes it's much more obvious than others it just makes things much more manageable and feel much more achievable. And thinking through how you can get there in the most effective, efficient way, I think is is really important. Thinking it through, chunking it up into smaller bits, if that makes sense to do so, being able to really explain to people how we're gonna do this.'cause most of the time you're doing it through other people..

James:

So when you say how, are you really just talking about the steps that you have to go through? So the chunks of work, or is there more to it than that?

Vick :

Yeah, so any kind of, how, so who's gonna be involved? Are we gonna get together regularly? How are we gonna structure ourselves to do it? Who's gonna do what, are there intermediate steps along the way that are gonna get us there how are we gonna know we're moving in the right direction? All that kind of how. I would say,

James:

Yeah. Okay.

Jimmy:

I'm sure I've fallen into this camp, which is once we've spent laborious amounts of time figuring out exactly what we're going to do, I just wanna get on and do it.

Vick :

yeah, of

Jimmy:

You, you always were very good and are very good spending that time. Thinking about how you're going to solve a problem as opposed to just doing, how do you make sure that everyone is alongside you and and supportive of that?

Vick :

So I think you've gotta get it proportionate. I try not to use terminology. Is

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Vick :

of

Jimmy:

Okay.

Vick :

if I know that it's understanding my audience and knowing the people I'm working with and how will they react, so don't call something governance if that's gonna make someone feel like that's slowing it down and stopping them making fast progress. But think how can I take these people with me? How can I make the most of every interaction we have? So that they will understand that having 30 minutes a week with me is valuable So for me it's about understanding the people you are working with and what doing, the project or the piece of work for. And how do they work? What's gonna make them give them confidence? Make them feel that I have got control of it, but also how am I gonna get from them what I need to do it as well? So I, I don't, it's one size fits all. I think it's understanding your audience and sizing it

James:

Yeah. Okay. So the first step is being very clear what it is. The next step is being very clear how it's going to be delivered.

Vick :

Yeah.

James:

But then equally as important is understanding who your customer is and what will give them confidence that you're doing it. So, coming in with your. Of raid logs and risks of whatever else it might be. For. Some people just bore'em to tears, but really, whereas for other people, that will be all important so that they have confidence in, in the fact that you're going do it.

Vick :

And,

James:

Yeah. That's interesting.

Vick :

not just the person that not just your customer. It's all about also your team and the people who are

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

How are you going to those things have just said, how are you gonna do that for them as well? And then how are you gonna balance the two?

Jimmy:

That's an important part of how you get stuff done we've talked about managing upwards in organizations and what you do really well is you get that balance between how do you manage your customer? To make sure that, they're helping you and you're delivering the right thing, but also all the people around you, how do you take them with you and how do you get them supportive of what you're doing? And that takes a quite investment in time, doesn't it?

Vick :

Oh, definitely. Yeah I know repeat myself, but I think it is about understanding them and understanding them as people

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Vick :

You know, what is going to, it's all the usual stuff, isn't it that you've talked about. It's about, what is gonna motivate them and inspire them and also then just help them. What, where do they need help. so for me, with anything, it's about understanding people.

Jimmy:

So once you've got the, the clarity, the how you've understood the people that you're working with, what's, what's the next thing that you go on to?

Vick :

You can actually do something then can't you? You can get on and actually do it.

Jimmy:

I lost.

Vick :

I knew that would make you happy. But it, from then it's around. How do you, well, we touched on how do you, keep current. So how do you know that you are, you don't just go, go off into a darkened room and you and your team and crack on with it and not, keep contact and understand that you're still doing the right things and has anything changed. So it's about, stakeholder management, isn't it? It's all, how do we keep the right people informed? How do we manage expectations? So it is the ongoing implementation of whatever it is you're doing. and what's really important through this time is understanding what could go wrong. So you've worked out the, how, but what could go wrong

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

what do we need to do? Do we need to do anything to kind of lower the chances of it going wrong? And if it does go wrong, what am I gonna do about it? So keeping on top of those things to, Make sure that we've got the best chance we have of delivering what we want to deliver, when we want to deliver it.

Jimmy:

And I think that the interesting thing there Vic as well, is that applies to whether you are, running a team, running a project, running your own business and, and I think that's probably one of the best descriptions of managing risks. That, that I've heard., You're now moving what? But as you're doing that, what could go wrong and how do I put it right before it goes wrong? How do I mitigate it? Risk management applies everywhere really. But, you didn't use that word,

Vick :

I

Jimmy:

our word.

Vick :

risk or mitigate because

Jimmy:

No,

Vick :

can

Jimmy:

I did. Oh my God.

Vick :

You did. I know.

James:

No, but the other thing that strikes me from what you've said, Vic, is that the, frankly, the biggest risk might be the bloody stakeholders going off on some tangents. So the actual stakeholder management, keeping people informed and letting them know what's going on is critically important because they could derail your project as easy as anything else.

Jimmy:

Well, I think, I think if you step back even further, James, I think that's. That's inherent in your approach, Vic, to how you're thinking about things. So you know what could go wrong, you could have a lack of clarity. What could go wrong? You couldn't have figured out how you can do things, what could go wrong, you won't have the right relationships. All of this is about if you're gonna get stuff done. Thinking about what other things that could derail you, what are the things that could become obstacles and dealing with them in advance.

Vick :

We do this in our own personal lives as well, don't we,

James:

Okay, so we've got, then, let me summarize. See we've talked about what, how and who, and then you get on to do it. What else is there that people really ought to keep their minds a bit on, do you think? Anything else they should be thinking about?

Vick :

It's not much more complicated than that really. To my mind those are the key things. I mean, is there anything that you guys would've seen me do that you would add to that? I.

Jimmy:

When you're getting progress, I think your point that you made about constantly checking in. Constantly making sure that you're monitoring that progress and that everyone is on the same page. So there is a little bit of,, herding sheep when you're getting stuff done., and then I think the, the other key thing would be, how you deal with completion success.

Vick :

I was just going add something in actually before completion. So

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Vick :

success at that completion, but also, especially if it's, you know, something that's taken a while, find the small wins along the way. What, can you really, and again, this is back to motivating the team and how you bring the team along with you, but what can you celebrate along the way so that you're not just waiting for the thing at the end that, you know, could be a, could be a long haul, but how do you more day-to-day stuff to celebrate those things as well?

Jimmy:

So actually. Breaking down those milestones, not because you're tracking them on a project plan, but breaking those milestones so everyone can celebrate the progress. That is a real positive way of creating a good environment and, and, motivating people.

James:

I remember we, now you said it. I was involved in a big core system replacement project once. And one of the jobs we had to do was we had to get a, you know, talk about boring, but we had to get a business process architecture drawn up, right? Business process architecture. Not the most sexy thing in the world, bit of a ball lake. But we got there and we got, everybody agreed with it. And the project manager made a really big thing of it. And he had, you know, one of the guys walking around with a clapboard on with his. Business process architecture on it, and then everyone's cheering and whooping and they all felt good about themselves. And if you hadn't done that, yeah, people would've just thought they were dying in this project. But just being able to, like you say, break it up and give that sense of, yeah, we are achieving stuff. Really, very important.

Vick :

And by the way, I probably have got the milestones on a project plan in the background that I'm not boring you with.

Jimmy:

In seriousness though, one of the things you said, Vic is appropriate for the situation in the audience, but writing down a plan. Can be hugely important. I mean, believe it or not, James and I have a plan for this podcast, you know, and we occasionally write stuff down, but it's not very detailed. It works for us. But you know, actually writing it down, I. Does help you focus on what you, what the steps are, focus on where you're going, focus on what goes wrong, and whether that's a detailed architecture or just a simple one pager that, that we might use. I think writing it down is a really important step of getting stuff done.

James:

Going on then, so completion, is that the next point or is there something else we need to be worrying about?

Vick :

It's cycles of all the same things that we've talked about

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

get to completion. So it's the checking in, making sure you're still going in the right. It's keeping people informed. It's thinking what could be going wrong. it's keeping your team mo It's all those things like on a, on a loop.

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

yes, until you get to the end and you get to completion.

Jimmy:

And when you get to completion, what are some of the things that you've. Done that work really well. To close things off, complete celebrate, review. What's the completion exercise look like for you?

Vick :

And it, and this is probably the, the least well done bit I would think, because especially, you know, I'm sure you probably put yourself in this category, Jimmy, as soon as it's done. Brilliant. What's the next thing? And it's, so a few things embedding. So I try and have in the plan up front is, okay, we're gonna deliver whatever this thing is, but what's the, what's the transition after that? Or the embedding after that so it doesn't end on the day it, on the day it goes live. So I'm trying to think of a good example, but, a, a building, you know,

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

end the day it opens. What, what are we gonna do? How are we going to, I don't know, engage people who are moving into the building in, in what the building can do for them? And it's probably a bit of an old fashioned example now, isn't it? We don't really use

Jimmy:

still use buildings.

Vick :

Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. But so it's, it's thinking what's the, what's needed. So there's a few things. What's needed beyond completion. It doesn't just all end. Then what are the things that are needed? how do you celebrate what you've done and the review? And that for me is rarely done well. And then if the review's done well, what's never done brilliantly is feeding what you've learned from the review back into anyone you work with, who might it might be useful to in the future. So how often have you seen that done? Well? Where we've done a, a post-implementation review or post project review, but that, I don't know, someone over there in the organization who might not have been involved, but actually how do they get to hear about things you've learned? And I think that is really important is working out how you can share any key learnings. I don't mean every little bit, but how do you share what's really key with people in your organization who, who may find that useful in the future?

James:

and that's, that's a very interesting point because. So projects never go smoothly. There's, they never land the way they should, but people always like to tell a good story.'cause people always like to tell a good story. Then actually the review process is invariably a bit woeful. So those learnings can be lost because people don't actually want to take the learnings, it's how you get past that. Not invented here syndrome.'cause they probably don't want to know some, the arrogance of it. They don't wanna know, they're not interested, they don't wanna listen. And that as well can be a, a big challenge. But it is, I suppose it's about organizational learning, isn't it really? And how do you make sure that the organization does.

Jimmy:

And that, and it doesn't have to be just projects. James it, you know,, it can be, you know, I found a better way of handling a claim today, or I found a better way of having a conversation with the customer, say buy stuff or I can help them. Just to pick up on one thing that you'd mentioned Vic, that is hugely important. You talked about when you're designing. you're gonna get to. It's the sustainability of any change. And that, again, can apply to how we use a new system, how we use a new building, or how we change our process, or how we talk to our customers, anything that you're doing. Thinking about how that change is going to be embedded and sustained over a period of time, as opposed to it's done. We've got a new system in, we've switched the on button. No, no one's using it, but that's all right.'cause we've gone live and now let's move on to the next thing. So designing and sustainability upfront, I think is hugely important to any change.

James:

The other thing that I've taken from it, sorry, Vic, just another point, which I think is really interesting. So for my sins, I am a six Sigma black belt. I've come to the conclusion that these six Sigma boys and girls have a tendency to ram the tools down people's throats so you can, you know, oh, look what I can do. So it's almost like you have to show'em the chart, but from what you've said, it's exactly the same with project managements. Yeah. You've got all these things which are very useful if used appropriately in the right place. Like a raid log or a project plan or a, yeah. Action list. It is about using it appropriately. That's the whole, that's part of the skill of it.

Vick :

Yeah, because, because very much like you, I've done, project management qualifications but for me it's well risks was the best example.'cause I was thinking, what, why are we doing this? Why are we talking about risk management? Well, it's because we don't want what we're doing to go wrong. just, The tool is great, but it's gotta be used in the right way. It's got to be. Accessible to people. If I go into a room and say, right, let's think about risks and how we're going to, are we gonna mitigate them or accept them or avoid them? won't get anything from anyone, how am I actually gonna find out what might stop this thing working

James:

Yeah.

Vick :

and trying to think with all the tools, all the project management tools, what is it we're actually trying to do and put it into plain English to just make it make sense and, and, and make it much easier to get stuff done? Well.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

We we're talking about this in project management terms, but I think project managers in general are one of the most underappreciated. Groups in any organization because you have to have them around because you need to get stuff done. But you don't want to have all the hassle of Gantt charts and trade logs and all the rest of it,

Vick :

Totally undervalued Jimmy, I think

Jimmy:

The thing that struck me, as we were going through this, was really about the fact that the skills that Vic's talking about and the approach he's talking about doesn't just apply to project management. It applies to anyone who's got to get stuff done at work, which is basically all of us. So it doesn't matter whether you're a CEO running an organization, you know, a frontline manager running a team, somebody running their own business, you've all got to try and get stuff done. Actually, the steps that Vic talked about would really help improve the outcomes and the delivery for anyone really, not just project managers.

James:

So let me have a go at summarizing then. So, as the world's worst project manager, I'm gonna summarize what I've been told.

Jimmy:

and then Vic can tell you what the right

James:

Yeah, what I missed. Yeah. Okay. So, number one, be really clear what it is that you are trying to achieve and realize that that what can change over time. The next thing is really how are you going to do it? Break it down into manageable chunks so people don't dive overwhelm, but just understand the specific tasks that need to be done. The third thing that I've got is the who. And that could be in two ways. It's a who do you need to complete the task, but also who do you need to keep on board and are you really making sure that those stakeholders understand what is going on and why. And then the fourth thing for me was really the thing about what can go wrong and how do you make sure that things don't go wrong? But it's just constantly going round the loop of those four things until you get to the end of the project. How's that? How does that do?

Vick :

I don't forget celebration along the way.

James:

Very good. Heaven forbids. Oh you. Oh remember,

Jimmy:

how are you gonna sustain the change? Design that in upfront.

James:

so I've got four outta six then. Is that what you're telling me?

Jimmy:

It's better than

James:

Yeah. Thank you very much. Lovely.

Jimmy:

Well, thank you Victor. Coming on and sharing the the dark hearts of a, project manager and how they can help all of us achieve more at work. I.

James:

Thank you very much. Speak to you later.

Jimmy:

Thanks everyone.

James:

Cheers. Now

Speaker 3:

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are outta control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised, just keeps failing to deliver, we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations, get in touch at Jimmy at@jobdonewell.com orJames@jobdonewell.com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Vick Grimes

Guest