A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Peak Performance and the State of Flow

• Jimmy Barber and James Lawther • Season 2 • Episode 39

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In this episode, James Lawther and Jimmy Barber discuss “Flow”, a mental state where we achieve peak performance whilst our actions feel effortless. They discuss how Hungarian-American psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi discovered this phenomenon, and they also explore the benefits of being in the “Flow” state and its effect on happiness. 

The discussion leads to practical tips on achieving and maintaining flow state - setting clear goals, challenging yourself, eliminating distractions, and creating the best environment. Finally, the hosts share personal experiences and recommend resources for further understanding. You can tune in to learn how to boost your performance and enjoyment at work.

They also carry on their British obsession with the weather and share some research secrets!

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Speaker:

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James:

Good morning. How you.

Jimmy:

Hi James. I'm doing well. How are you? You can't say the weather's fabulous today'cause over my shoulder is shit.

James:

It's dreadful. No, I'm not. I'm not fabulous at all. Anyway, what are we talking about today then?

Jimmy:

Today we are talking about flow state. Which is the state that you achieve for peak performance, where any activity you're doing the delivery achievement, it becomes effortless. We've all been in the zone at some point. Well, today we're gonna help our listeners understand what flow state is, why it makes a difference to performance, and more importantly, how you access it more consistently.

James:

Ah, very good.

Jimmy:

Not that we're experts in peak

James:

no flow? No, not

Jimmy:

or getting in flow state. We are the, we are two of the most easily distracted people ever.

James:

But we have read about it. So what have you been up to this week?

Jimmy:

So this week, James, I've actually got a recommendation for you and our listeners. I I was doing a little bit of a research for this episode and I came across a guy called Ali Abdo. He is a,

James:

Hang on.

Jimmy:

Well, I made that

James:

You were doing some research.

Jimmy:

I do some research, means I was surfing the internet.

James:

I was gonna say, is he a TikTok guru?

Jimmy:

He's actually a doctor turn productivity guru, and he is really good. I, I'd really like his stuff. He does some amazing stuff on how you can improve your personal productivity. So his YouTube is worth checking out, but he's a little bit more popular than us, James. He's got 6.3 million followers.

James:

Yeah. Well, one at a time. Jimmy. One at a time.

Jimmy:

Exactly, we'll overtake him some point

James:

So

Jimmy:

next, in the next

James:

in the next century. Yeah.

Jimmy:

And, and, I'm also, as many people will understand, obsessed by the transfer market and looking at who Forres are gonna buy for the next season. But that's gonna be a thorn in my side for the next couple of months. How about you,

James:

Well, being British, I need to talk about the weather.

Jimmy:

of course.

James:

I went for a walk in the peak district yesterday with one of my old mates. We organized it about four months ago. We thought June, you can't go wrong in June, the peak district, it'll be lovely, sunny sitting outside the pubb having a pint. It absolutely hosed it down. I haven't got been so wet in years.

Jimmy:

Well, we've got less than five minutes into this podcast, and we mentioned the weather twice, so that's tick, tick that box. But I, to mention it a third time, my kids are both born at the end of June and every year when they were little, we used to have a birthday party for them. We used to want to have it in the garden, and every year it rained on their birthday party. So yeah, June is not a banker for a hot summer's day.

James:

Right then, so talk to me, two questions for you.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

What is flow state and why? On this slide of preparation I'm talking about have you got a brain bullet point?

Jimmy:

'cause flow state is all about the brain.

James:

Yeah, you got it. Off chat. GPT, didn't you?

Jimmy:

don't give away our secrets.

James:

Go on. Then.

Jimmy:

Flow state is was a term coined by an eminent Hungarian American psychologist.

James:

Oh, really? What was he called?

Jimmy:

Well, that's a whole different ball game. James, do you know how how many letters he has in his surname?

James:

Yeah, go on.

Jimmy:

it's like 25 letters in his surname. His name was Mihi Chick Zen Mihi.

James:

And you sure about that?

Jimmy:

No, but that's what the internet told me his name

James:

tell, okay. Well we have got a clip. Here you go. Here's the clip. This is apparently how you pronounce his name.

Internet:

We are looking at how to pronounce the name of this Hungarian American psychologist, Mihai Mihai. I know it's counterintuitive, but Yeah, it's Hungarian. Mihi Chick sent me high. Mihi Chick sent me high.

Jimmy:

See, I wasn't that far off. Surely

James:

Very good. If you believe everything you hear on the internet,

Jimmy:

Yes. So Flow State. Is a point when you're doing work where you really get in the zone and what it is characterized by real focused concentration. You know, merging of like action. You lose track of time. Time flies. You really feel enjoyment. You get pleasure out of what you're doing, and it feels more effortless. It might happen in short bursts, in longer burst. It varies, but it is that state of being really in the zone. When your work's flowing, you're enjoying it, and the outputs most importantly, are really high quality.

James:

Do you know how, let's just call him Mihi. Do you know how he came about the understanding of this flow state?

Jimmy:

No, but you're about to tell us.

James:

Oh yeah. Apparently he was really interested in what made people happy and so we ran an experiment. One of his experiments was going back a few years. This is within the days of the the beeper, you know, when you have your telephone beeper or bleep, whatever you wanna call it. Anyway, he bleeped people at random times of the day and he got them to say how happy they were on a

Jimmy:

you mean a pager?

James:

Pager, that's the word.

Jimmy:

That's the badger.

James:

Er pager, whatever. Anyway, he paged people. I suppose. It depends if you're American or not, doesn't it?

Jimmy:

No, I think you'll find that pa, I don't think you'll find that in America they called it Pager In British, in Britain we call it a bleeper. I just

James:

Oh,

Jimmy:

you know, just say it, putting it out there.

James:

I'm telling you, posh people call them bleepers mate. Anyway, he bleeds people at different random times of the day and he just ask them to write down how happy they were on a scale of no to 10 and write down what they were doing. And he just,'cause he was really interested in finding out what made people happy and what he discovered was that people, if they were sitting watching telly or surfing the internet, which of course they weren't doing then, but that's the modern day equivalent, they were probably about a two or a three outta 10. It didn't make them happy at all, but he found out that people were most happy when they were. Engaged in something that was really challenging to them, like, I don't know, playing a game of tennis or rock climbing or writing or whatever it might be, but it was the whole thing about focus and having something which you could almost do, and that was, it was really about what makes people happy.

Jimmy:

And I think that's important. The reason for getting in Flow State is partly your performance goes up.'cause your, your outputs are, really high quality. It's when you do your best work, but also it is the satisfaction that you get from that. So it is, you know, ultimately to the core of this podcast, how do you improve performance and enjoyment of work? Flow state is one of those really critical things.

James:

Yeah, and there are a couple of quotes which I think are quite good. So the one I like is Serena Williams, who has been known to say that when I'm in the zone, everything else disappears. It is just me and the task. It feels amazing.

Jimmy:

And another one was Steven Koler, who wrote The Riser Superman being completely absorbed by the, an activity you love to do where time disappears. That's flow. That's where the best work happens.

James:

Yeah, so there you go. So actually being projective and being happy. On the same thing. It's quite an interesting point, I think.

Jimmy:

I think you'll find to your quote James or well Serena Williamson's quote, it is something that a lot of sports people try and achieve because it is, when you do your best work and when you're at your happiest. So, James, when do you get into flow state?

James:

Well, interestingly, I was actually, you have distracted me. I was actually, I think in Flow State before I came on this call. So I was two or three minutes late for this call and the reason was bizarrely, I

Jimmy:

Not, not just, you're always late for

James:

No, no, no, no. This was good reason. I was taking upon myself to write about bumblebees. Now, why I was writing about bumblebees is a bit of a, a moot point. But for me, I get in a flow state when I'm concentrated on an idea or trying to make a point, and I was sitting writing this thing and I thought, oh, I've got 20 minutes to go. And before I knew it, I was two or three minutes late because I just got so absorbed in trying to make this point that I lost track of time altogether. And then there you go. Flowing.

Jimmy:

Yeah, and

James:

Whether or not it was predictive is a moot point. Maybe if you look, you'll see something about Bumblebee shortly and you'll be able to

Jimmy:

We will be able to judge. Well for me, James, I think when we did that episode on strengths, one of the things we talked about was Woo, which was winning others over. Thinking about it now, one of the points when I get in flow state is when I'm either developing a story to tell to people or I'm actually telling the story. So, both the, the preparation I can get really in the zone with the preparation and the ideas are flowing out my head and I'm capturing them. And then when I deliver it to an audience and it, but it has to be on something that matters. Something that's influencing people, motivating people having a positive impact. But if the subject is that, and I'm either writing the, the story or delivering the story, that's when I most, I think I most get in flow state.

James:

Yeah, and that's quite interesting, right? Because I think I can be in a flow or have found myself in a flow start when I've been pre presenting stuff before. But actually it wasn't the presenting that was the thing. It was what I was presenting about. And so for me it's, yeah, it is the whole what you really good at, what you find really interesting. And if you're doing that, that's when you get into that stage.

Jimmy:

but interesting enough, what I also thought about is when I'm delivering that presentation. I'll start off, and I'm not saying I start off badly, but What's critical for me is that I get some feedback from the audience. So if I, I dunno, say a joke and they laugh at it, or people start nodding or, you know, sitting forward in their chairs. So I know that I've engaged the audience. That's the point. I think I more likely enter flow state. It isn't just doing the presentation, it's when I'm doing the presentation, I think I'm actually having a positive impact here and then it builds for me. So.

James:

Okay, so it's about feedback.

Jimmy:

Yeah. It's, it's about getting something back on, something that matters. But I think one of the things that, I would also observe in thinking about flow state is I've not actually thought about it consciously enough during my career. You know, I naturally fall into it in certain tasks at certain times, but that hasn't meant that I've actually worked out, this is my peak performance. How do I replicate that? How do I enable it? So really in terms of an opportunity to improve, I think Flowstate is a, a really good one for me personally.

Speaker 4:

As well as recording this podcast, we help individuals, teams, and entire organizations achieve outstanding results.

Speaker 5:

If you'd like to find out more about how we can help you, please get in touch email, either jimmy@ajodowell.com or James at ajo dunwell com.

Jimmy:

So couple of things to think about with Flow state., It has to be a task that's reasonably challenging. So to your point about watching tv, you can't really get into flow state while you're watching tv. You might enjoy it, but you're not, you're not, you're not working. So the, there's a view that the challenge of the task that you're doing, and I know this is on average, Jay, but on average it should be 4%. Higher than your, the top of your capability. So just beyond what you are capable of. So it's stretching in our words.

James:

All right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy:

Also interesting enough, you can't, go into flow state and live in it permanently. It's just not, the brain is not capable of doing that. Apparently there is an absolute upper limit of four hours a day that you could get yourself into flow state and do this sort of, you know, real deep work. The brain is not capable of doing it. So, so people shouldn't beat themselves up, that they're not living in flow state permanently. This is about certain times, certain tasks that you can use this tool.

James:

Well, that's sort of two things in that come out of that for me. First of all, have you seen that chart? There's a very useful chart that people draw. I like a good graph, but this chart, what it's, yeah, what it's got on one axis, it's got ability, so something you're good at, something you're bad at. Yeah. And then the other axis, it's got how challenging it is comes back to your 4% thing. Yeah. So if it's something that you are very good at, but you don't find terribly challenging, yeah. Then you just get bored. Yeah. Whereas if it's something you're not very good at and it's terribly challenging, then you just get anxious. So it really is finding that middle path between those two things, whereas you say it's just slightly more difficult

Jimmy:

Yeah. It's just, just the 4% you can believe, like you can believe. It is just slightly, slightly too difficult, isn't it?

James:

And then the other thing I read is actually it's all to do with brain processing power. So apparently you can own, well yeah, you've only got so much processing power in your head, which kind of makes sense. So when you are in that state of flow, it's when you are using all of that brain processing power. And you literally haven't got enough bandwidth in your head for anything else. And so that's why, you know, you can't be distracted.'cause if you're distracted you're not using all your processing power on that one task. And then finally, of course, my point about why I was late for this call, when you're so focused on one thing. You know, the time flies.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah. So it really is about how much how much processing power have you got in your brain and are you using it all on one thing, which then that actually isn't too surprising, why you're highly predictive when you're doing it.'cause you just focus really.

Jimmy:

But if you want to see somebody really in flow state, we'll, we can put a, a link to this in the show notes. But Barack Obama's, speech that he did, I think it was for the Democratic Convention when he was going for a reelection. There's a, a speech that he does there where, where he tells a real story and he's really in the zone there. It's an amazing speech, but why does

James:

I, no, hang on. So just so I've watched that, oh, it's great speech, but why does that demonstrate in the flow zone? Why did you pick that one out?

Jimmy:

Well I think it demonstrates in the flow zone.'cause you can see. How effortless it is for him to get the audience in the palm of his hand and how he holds'em there. And the level of peak performance. I mean that, you know, in terms of speeches, that's one of the best speeches you are, you'll find. You know what I mean? So I think it's a good example.

James:

Right then, so why, oh, I think I know the answer to this, but why does this matter in the workplace then,

Jimmy:

So why does it really matter? Well, obviously, it boosts performance. This is when you're in peak performance, actually engagement work, people find it much more rewarding to, to be doing work that they're really, that they can get in flow state with. Yeah. And I think it improves as, as our man. Mihi, Mihi. Mihi. I think I got that right. As, as he said, it improves happiness

James:

All right. There was a, there's a great quote as well from

Jimmy:

from,

James:

Mihi Chi

Jimmy:

are we just calling Mihi?

James:

We call him Mihi. Yeah. The best moments in our lives are not the passive, receptive, relaxing times. The best moments usually occur if a person's body or mind is stretched to its limits in a voluntary effort to accomplish something difficult and worthwhile. There you go.

Jimmy:

So,

James:

to put it another way, get off your frigging phone. Yeah. So go on. There are a number of ways of getting into flow. Did you get this from your new guru then?

Jimmy:

I got this from our, from our old guru, which is the, the internet.

James:

Oh, okay.

Jimmy:

Bear in mind, my lack of accessing flow state, so I thought it was interesting to work out. How do you achieve flow state? Well, there's a few things that people say. One is setting clear goals for a task that you know, what you're trying to achieve and you can, you know, get clear success in a period of time. There's the stuff that we talked about about matching skill.

James:

well hang on a second then just set, talk about that. Setting clear goals, but these are clear goals you've set for yourself, not clear goals you've set for others.

Jimmy:

is clear goals you set for yourself and when you've got a big task that is, you know, gonna take you days, weeks, to your point James, you can't get in flow state for while I do this whole project, break it down to smaller tasks. So set yourself a small task. Like you say, you can, you can concentrate for 20 minutes an hour. But break it down into that, those little chunks get into flow state to deliver those chunks. And even if it is a, a task that you've been given, I think this is about you sitting down and saying, in this hour, in this session, this is what I am going to achieve. So you set yourself a goal.

James:

No, and I think the point for me is actually, this comes back to motivation, but this really is if you want a team of people who are productive and they re really going for it, you want'em in the flow state, but the way you get'em to get into flow state is you get'em to do the tasks that they want to do. So it's my point being, it's all about would you believe purpose and creating some reason for them to be there. And something they really wanna get their teeth into rather than just some random objective that you

Jimmy:

Well, intrinsic motivation is always going to outperform extrinsic motivation, isn't it? I think the, the, the second part, as we talked about, is. About having the, the right level of challenge. So you can't sell yourself something that, that you do without thinking,

James:

yeah,

Jimmy:

A key one today in, is really how do you eliminate distractions and the number one distraction in all our lives.

James:

yeah,

Jimmy:

phone. And so yeah, you need to find ways, put it in another room, you know, get rid of it completely. But also another key tip is block time out. Actually

James:

on. Before you go into that, before you go into that, just a random aside, your mobile phone, one of the things you can do with your mobile phone, lower top tip you can put it in black and white mode. And if you put your mobile phone in black and white mode, it's not nearly so attractive, so you don't spend so much time on it.

Jimmy:

Oh, there you go.

James:

there you go.

Jimmy:

I'll give that a try.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

The other thing is actually schedule the time, block the time out saying I'm going to do either, at certain points in your diary or for example, the first couple hours of each day, block out the time for doing, you know, real deep, deep work. Then create the environment. What do you need in the environment? Some people need to have their coffee ready, some people need to have music on, some people need to have the lighting a certain way. So create the environment that allows you to be focused. To your point James, you have to tap into tasks that feel meaningful to you and work that aligns with your values and your skills.

James:

There's an interesting thing about the environment and is it chicken or egg? But if you find yourself picking up your phone, that because you're bought

Jimmy:

Yes.

James:

And therefore the task isn't sufficiently. Distracting. Yeah. Or is that because your phone distracted you from the task? And I think it's probably a bit chicken and egg, but maybe the challenge is to find yourself something that's really engaging.

Jimmy:

And maybe you haven't set the goal the right level. Maybe you're not trying to achieve enough. Maybe You mean the task itself isn't the right task, but it is good. It is a good challenge

James:

Yeah, sorry, I'm just gonna go on another diversion. I like a good diversion in the nine. You know, you never noticed you'd be able to get me back on track in a second. In the 1990s show HI bought, do you remember those Sega mega consoles? Do you

Jimmy:

Yes. Yeah.

James:

Anyway, I am bought Sega Mega Console'cause everyone had got one. And in my twenties I played Sonic the Hedgehog and I finished Sonic the Hedgehog and I found myself for about, I dunno, three weeks on the tro playing Sonic the frigging Hedgehog until 3:00 AM in the morning. And the point where is this relevant to this was the beauty of Sonic the Hedgehog was it got me into the zone. Because I was so focused on it, I didn't know the time was going on. It was something I wanted to, to achieve. Yeah. The so there you go. I think there's something there in where you see flow. You see it in video game design. But also the other point was after I'd done, ah, I never bought another game because it was just, life's too short to be playing. Freaking So the hedgehog at three in the morning,

Jimmy:

The next point is to, to your bit about choosing the type of work, which is really make sure that it is a meaningful task. That's the only way you're going to get challenged and energized and motivated to do something. And a final one, which I think is a, a really interesting point. Is there, whilst we've said, here's some things to think about, you need to tailor them to yourself.'cause you need to figure out what works best for you. It might be, it'll be different for me versus you, we'll need slightly different environments. We'll need different tasks. We'll be motivated in different ways. We might operate at different times of the day better. So I think getting a self-awareness on how do I personally access flow state. Is is also key. And one thing that you can do when you've started to make this into a bit of a habit is keep a log of how long each day you actually can spend in flow state. To your favorite point, James, what gets measured gets done. If you start to look at that time, it will naturally increase because you, you're actually understanding how little time we spend in flow state, thanks to tasks, distractions, all the rest of it.

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Speaker 2:

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James:

so this is all very interesting, right? But if you are most productive when you are in a flow state you've got a team of people, You want that team of people in their flow state as much as possible, don't you? So what do you do as a manager then to help achieve that?

Jimmy:

I would consider a few things. One is understanding those individuals and what their skill levels are, what they really motivates them, how do you help them? Identify the work that will really challenge them and get them in flow state. How do you work with them to understand how they individually access it? I don't think you can mandate your going into flow state now, James, but you can, you can make sure that you understand. I, I know you like writing stuff, so it's, it's tailoring your skills and your loves and your motivation to what the goals you're gonna set yourself.

James:

Well, but then, so, all right, so you can't mandate it in your team. You really can't. But you can create the conditions where they are most likely.

Jimmy:

Yeah. And, and you can encourage them, you can make picture people understand that actually accessing flow state is good for performance, but also good for, motivation and happiness. So you can make sure people understand it. You can create the environment that they can get themselves into Flow State to enable it,

James:

yeah. All right. But sorry, I'm just labor the point a wee bit, but creating the environment is about minimizing distractions.

Jimmy:

It could be. Yes.

James:

Yeah. It's also about getting people, the opportunities to play to their strengths. So don't give them jobs that they're not good at. Give them the things that they really are good at.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

then that, suppose the third thing for me then will be about what the task is. So give them the opportunity to do work that matters.

Jimmy:

and, and make sure that they can schedule the time in, make sure that they can create the environment without distractions that works best for them.

James:

So let's summarize that then. What have we got?

Jimmy:

So, in summary, thanks to Mihi, we have an understanding of what flow state is and the importance it has in terms of performance and enjoyment of work. We talked about what it means to us. When we enter flow state, and importantly, the different ways that you can access it.

James:

Yeah. And also I think, you know, if you wanna know, know more. There's loads of stuff on the internet. Find yourself some videos. Get yourself some books you can read out about this, and it starts to make a lot of sense when you understand it.

Jimmy:

It does, as we've discussed to today, James, you, you and I access it occasionally, but we're not prolific users and certainly not experts in this space. So we'll put a couple of links in the show notes to some of the stuff that we've seen and used. And that all maybe help people. But yeah, it's definitely a subject that you have to explore a little bit for yourself, isn't it?

James:

Lovely. Very interesting. Thank you very much.

Jimmy:

Alright, hopefully everyone's enjoyed that episode. If you have any questions or comments on the subject, please get in touch. Thanks everyone.

James:

now. Cheers now.

Speaker 4:

As well as recording this podcast, we help individuals, teams, and entire organizations achieve outstanding results.

Speaker 5:

If you'd like to find out more about how we can help you, please get in touch email, either jimmy@ajodowell.com or James at ajo dunwell com.

People on this episode

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host