A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Understanding Grief at Work: A Conversation with Lou Hynes

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Lou Hynes • Season 2 • Episode 42

Share episode

Nearly a quarter of us are impacted by grief every year - so why aren't we talking about it more at work?

In this episode, hosts James Lawther and Jimmy Baber explore the crucial topic of grief in the workplace with special guest Lou Hynes, 'The Grief Guru'. Lou shares her personal story, in which, through devastating personal loss, she has found her calling - helping us become a more grief-literate society. The discussion covers how grief affects employees, the importance of organisational support, and practical ways managers and colleagues can offer real help. 

Lou emphasises the need for companies to support their employees, or risk attrition (51% of people who feel they're not supported through a period of grief leave within a year) and provides actionable insights for making workplaces more compassionate and supportive environments. 

Whether you're someone dealing with grief, a manager or an HR director, this episode offers valuable perspectives and advice.

To find out more about Lou and how she can help you Lou Hynes Coaching

On a lighter note, James shares details of his favourite pastime. 

Got a question - get in touch. Click here.

Speaker:

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James:

Good afternoon. How you doing?

Jimmy:

I'm doing very well. James. How are you?

James:

am fabulous. Thank you very much. I keep telling myself that every morning when I look in the mirror, so what we're talking about today.

Jimmy:

You've even done that joke multiple times.

James:

I've only got very few jokes.

Jimmy:

The, the limited

James:

round every now and again when you've only got seven. Yeah. What do you expect?

Jimmy:

as true. That's true, I stand corrected.

James:

it wasn't a joke. It's what I actually do. I stand there. You are a winner.

Jimmy:

The power pose.

James:

Every morning, right? Go on then. Tell me what are we talking about today?

Jimmy:

Well, today we have a very, very important and interesting episode. We are going to be talking about grief at work, and that is something that we all experience and it impacts us, our colleagues, our team members, our boss. Everyone at some point gets impacted by grief. But it's never on a development program, an HR course or induction. Nobody teaches you how to deal with grief in the workplace. And so it is a much ignored subject. So we have Lou with us today who is a, uh, grief guru. She will tell you all about herself and her journey, she's going to help us understand a bit more about grief and how it impacts people's work and how we can support people through that process. Before we get into that though, James, what have you been up to?

James:

I had a rather unfortunate episode this weekend.

Jimmy:

Excellent. I'm not forward to hearing it.

James:

um, had some friends, I have some university friends, so we've turn back a long time. Some very old friends and they came up to Naum and um, we thought, well, we'll go out for a walk.'cause that's what you do when you're an old, middle aged boat. So we went out for a walk. We thought we'll go to Sherwood forests. So we were walking around Sherwood Forest, minding our own business. Four, perfectly respectable, middle-aged blokes.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

we walked by two blokes who were, excuse the terminology, star, bullet naked, sitting in a forest naked.

Jimmy:

Wow.

James:

were all like, alright. His front keep walking. So we walked past these guys and anyway, walked on a little bit further, and in the distance you could see three more. people walking across the path, which was obviously gonna cross across, cut across our path. So we all slowed down and these people worked past and they got walking boots on and they got hats on. But other than that, yeah, not a stage. I obviously stumbled across, I'm not sure whether it's, what do they call it? Is it naturist or naturalist? But I

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

a closet.

Jimmy:

across James.

James:

that's the problem, because that's what my friend says. Yeah. They're like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you come here often? So, that was the highlight of my weekends. But why would you, right. If you, why would you go and strip off and share with forest? I mean, it's full of creepy crawlies. I mean, it's not you. I could see it in the south of France, but share with forest, really. Anyway, so there you go. That's what I

Jimmy:

So now, now we know why you keep going on holiday to South of France and there is definitely an image that no one needs. Um, This week, James, I have the, joy of double birthday time. So my daughters are 19 and 22 on th Friday. And, next Monday. So this time of year it's all about cookies, cakes, balloons. You'd have thought at their age they wouldn't want this sort of stuff, but yeah, they want all the little things but then they've got bottomless brunch for their birthday.

James:

Brunch

Jimmy:

want balloons, but I'm gonna bottom as brunch. So it is that transition that they're still kids at heart. Anyhow, welcome Lou. Thank you for joining us. And, as we won't do you or your story, any sort of justice, do you wanna introduce yourself to our listeners?

Lou:

Yeah. Hi, I'm Lou. I'm Lou Hines. And,, my story is based on my own lived

Jimmy:

I.

Lou:

and how I have switched my business and what I do now. Based on my experience of my husband dying extremely suddenly, just over two and a half years ago. So in December 22, he took himself off to bed, not feeling very well. We'd all had, you know, the winter sort of. Snuffles. And that was a Saturday. And a few short hours later, he had collapsed. Unconscious ambulances were called. He was taken into recess shortly thereafter, taken into, the intensive care unit. He had very intense swelling on the brain. They didn't know what it was. Sadly tragically, it was a very rare form of bacterial meningitis and it had killed him within hours. So was suddenly taken from planning what we were gonna get the kids for Christmas to planning a funeral for my 40-year-old, you know, young, healthy fit incredible husband. And so yeah, plunged into the depths of grief, becoming a young widow with three young children and. I found as that sort of journey unfolded really was just how bad people are and we all are, and I know that I had been guilty of this as well because of my lack of experience. We are so atrociously bad at grief as a nation and a society as a culture, and so I have now made it my mission to help to change that. And help to make the world a more grief, literate place. And so, yeah, I go into businesses, I support people one-to-one and help them understand grief, help them know how they can best support grieving people. And grief comes in, you know, all manner of formats and guises and, um, yeah, all based on, you know, I'm living it, I'm breathing it every single day, but I'm, I'm sort of working through it and using my grief to fuel. Bigger purpose that I now find myself with.

Jimmy:

A real inspirational story, but your point about us not being able to deal with it, you know, I hold my hands up I can do the, um, sorry for your loss, and then after that. I'm like a little bit floundering about what I do and how I, how I deal with people. But you've got some really fascinating stats as well as to why, apart from the obvious, but why really is this important for organizations and people who are in work to understand this and do something about it?

Lou:

Well, I think it's, it's, you know, grief doesn't end when you come back from having had the funeral. And I think we need to understand that and. The person that comes back after whatever bereavement leave they might have been given or whatever time off they might have needed. The person that comes back to work after that is not the same person that left prior to their bereavement. 23% of the UK adult working population will experience a bereavement in a given 12 month period, so that's a quarter of the workforce experiencing a significant loss. Over the course of a year, and that is just, you know, in that timeframe. What about all of the grieving people, all of the people who've had a loss? Two years ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, it still affects you. It still is, you know, grief is forever. Uh, it doesn't just sort of miraculously disappear after 12 months and you, oh, you know, aren't you over it yet? And so it's so vitally important to understand that actually a huge portion of your workforce, of your employees. Are carrying around this very incredibly heavy burden of grief and no one is really trying to understand them. No one is really trying to do anything about it to support them or just ask how they're, how they're doing. And I think the more we can bring, and like you just said, yes, we can all kind of do the awkward, I'm so sorry for your loss. The more we can bring grief into the conversation and start to have those yeah, difficult, awkward conversations, the better.

James:

There's a point here, which I think, reinforces your point, Lou. So, analyst, analyst news came out with that stat, and I'm thinking 23% really.

Lou:

Yeah.

James:

But when we had the conversations, you pointed out to me, well, who, how am I to determine who's important to you? Where the grief is?

Lou:

Yeah, exactly. A lot of bereavement policies are based around, um, sort of, you know, quotes close family members. Some of you might not be close to your dad that might have just passed away. Your uncle might have raised you, but yet you would not be eligible for the same amount of leave if it wasn't a close relative. So you know who gets to define how, how close of an emotional connection you had. And the it, there's a direct correlation between the level of emotional pain that you will feel at the loss of. Someone or something and the, uh, level of emotional connection that you had with that person or thing. Take pets for example. People that haven't had a dog or a cat go, oh, what's the problem? It's only a dog that's like,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

that actually that is a key member of your family who has been loyal to you for perhaps 15 years.

James:

Yeah.

Lou:

and that, that's a huge, huge loss. So it is really, really, yeah, it is really dependent on. What that person meant to you and how much of a connection there was. So yeah, who, who, who is the boss, the, the leader to dictate how you're supposed to feel about that.

Jimmy:

Just, just to highlight that I my dad passed away a couple of months ago. We never really were very close and, you know, actually we hadn't really talked for five years before he passed away, don't get me wrong, he was, being my dad was a constant in my life one way or the other, but we weren't close. So I didn't really, I don't really think I felt grief that much, but if I think about, if one of my dogs passed away, I'd be unable to function for a period of time. I am quite confident just'cause how, how much they, mean to me. But if you, if somebody had said that to me before, I was a, a dog owner and I am quite a recent dog owner, I would've thought they were mental. I couldn't, couldn't get my head around at all.

Lou:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

we do have very closed and fixed views on it.

Lou:

and there's kind of like an assumed sort of hierarchy isn't there of, oh, well they're your parent, they're a spouse that, but it depends on the complexity of the relationship. There's an

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

hierarchy of how much you will grieve depending on who that person was in relation to you. But it's, yeah, all of that goes out the window.

Jimmy:

So. Basically, with the, the numbers you're talking about, someone around you,, team members, colleagues, boss people around you are going through this now, but just help us understand a little bit more about, what is grief and how it actually really impacts people.

Lou:

I use grief as the sort of the umbrella term, if you like, for all of those complex emotions that you feel. Um, usually all of the complex emotions that we're told to sort of hide because they're not seen as socially acceptable to, to show pain, to show resentment, to show fear, anxiety, guilt, shame. There's so many complex emotions that come. And I kind of talk about the is like the, uh, the rucksack. And in that rucksack, you put all of those different feelings and emotions. Um, you put the fear, you put the shame, the guilt, the resentment, the anger. You put all of that. And then we carry that rucksack around with us. And it's really, really heavy because what we don't often get the opportunity to do is to unpack that rucksack and unpack all of those difficult feelings that we're, that we're feeling. So that's how I sort of explain grief. Grief is also. Neurological. It is also, it also affects our physical bodies. So how that then shows up in the workplace is that someone could come in and they are absent-minded. I. They're forgetful. You know, you can kind of look at them and you sort of like the lights are on, but nobody's home.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

they might, you know, aches, pains, illnesses, especially when grief goes unprocessed, is left to sort of just fester and not be, not be worked through, not to go through any kind of healing process. Physical illnesses become a result of that. Things like anxiety, depression, other mental health issues are significantly correlated with grief. I found, and this was a really weird one that no one had told me about, but it's, it's quite common and apparently I can no longer read a book from start to finish. I was an avid reader, avid reader. You asked me to read a book now, can't do it. I can read, obviously, but it's just that ability to focus on something. So now I use audio books.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

are giving an employee a stack of, you know, a huge report to read. Just like, you know, and I'm over two and a half years, years into this journey

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

can't do it. I still find it really, really difficult. And I'm sure it will come back. I know it does, having spoken to other, other people, but it's just kind of being, being mindful of what grief does to your brain and your body, making those, adjustments, making those allowances when necessary. But people can't do that if they don't understand what's going on with that person.

Jimmy:

So what happens if. If you, if you don't unpack the rock sack, if you just kind of, can you just carry it around and just

Lou:

you can

Jimmy:

ignore it?

Lou:

You can carry it around with you and you can never unpack it. Lots of people, I'm sure we all know people that have never unpacked that, that rucksack. What will inevitably happen though, and I dunno if you've any, any review have ever read that the body keeps the score it's not an easy read, but it's a very enlightening read. All of the trauma that comes with death loss, bereavement, et cetera, gets stored in the body, and the body has to do something with that. And so something like a physical illness can

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

a manifestation of unprocessed loss. Depression can be a

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

of unprocessed loss. And if we never unpack that rucksack grief is cumulative and grief gets cumulatively worse. So, I've worked with people they might have lost a parent 20 years ago, never dealt with that. And then 10 years ago, their beloved dog has died. 18 months ago. Their sibling passed away, and there's this cumulation of unprocessed grief that all of a sudden it just comes back and bites you on the bum big time.

James:

And I suppose as a society, we are not great at dealing with that. It's almost like, oh, that happened. That's very unfortunate. We don't really want to talk about it. Let's sweep it under the carpet.

Lou:

Yeah, and I,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

you know, and this is where it becomes a really important kind of two-way dialogue really, that. as grieving people kind of like, yeah, we're fine. Oh yeah, I'm fine, thanks. We don't want to be a burden to the

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

that's asking. We know that us crying or expressing our true emotions in any, in any way, it makes that other person feel uncomfortable. So it does, it gets pushed under the carpet or we are kind of, we're again taught by society. Like you say that, well, you should be fine by now. Or just Yeah, I'm fine. Stiff up a lip. And this is a thing, especially for us, Brit stiff up a lip, let's just carry on, you know, I'm fine. I'll deal with it in my own way. And actually it never gets dealt with really. And so ultimately comes back yeah, in some other form. That's, that's much less healthy what we see as well. There's behaviors and we, we call them acting out behaviors, so. Some are healthy, some are not so healthy as a way to avoid dealing with the grief. So you might see that people are coming back to work, really throwing themselves back into work, which yeah, great.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

Come on back. Come on. That's a, that's a brilliant distraction, but there's a watch out there if that person is using work as a way of not having to think about the pain. There's other examples that could be seen as, um, a healthy thing that they're doing. Somebody might go and hit the gym. Oh, brilliant.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

they're getting stronger, they're keeping fit, they're healthy. Is that. An alternative to sitting in the grief. There's other more obvious, less healthy distractions like drinking, smoking, gambling, you know,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

scrolling on online, you know, all of those things that we do to distract ourselves from our real feelings. So that's another watch out as well. And that's another way that grief can, or grief avoidance can manifest itself in ways that, or behaviors that aren't particularly. One thing that I did, um, and I can see this was a, a bit of an acting out behavior, was I launched, a just giving page to raise money for meningitis now.'cause I felt I had to, I had to put that pain somewhere and that pain for me was, well, right, let's raise some money. And I've since

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

10,000 pounds for that charity to raise awareness and, and funding to. Support people. But I can see looking back, that that was a way for me to redirect my grief. Thankfully, it was a healthy way for me to redirect my grief and do something with it other than actually deal with it.

Speaker 2:

As well as recording this podcast, we help individuals, teams, and entire organizations achieve outstanding results.

Speaker 3:

If you'd like to find out more about how we can help you, please get in touch email, either jimmy@ajodowell.com or James at ajo dunwell com.

Jimmy:

Lou, one of the things that you said about the acting out behaviors that I was definitely being guilty of is. When somebody in my team had a bereavement, I would always say to them, look, take as much time as you need. Don't worry about your work. We'll cover everything you need to, but if it's useful or helpful to you to come into work and to distract yourself on that, then, I'll leave it to you.

Lou:

It is a really, really tricky one because for some people coming be what they need and they

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

realize they need more support in a different way until six, you know, nine,

Jimmy:

I.

Lou:

down the line. being really specific with people. So, it's great that you offered them that, that support the. Take as much time as you need. One thing to perhaps say instead could be something more like, because again grieving people their brain is just an absolute mess. Right? They can't process information very well rather than kind of. an open ended option in terms of take all the time you need, say something, you know, as, as a manager. Something more like I'll check in with you in three weeks.

Jimmy:

Yeah,

Lou:

see where you're at, and then Sure. We have weekly calls from then on. Something very sort of time specific so that they

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

okay, I've got three weeks breathing space, or however long you, you decide between you is is relevant, and then. Weekly calls after that, or, if you would like to come into the office to chat anytime, you know, I'm, I'm available. kind of thing is much more helpful than them, them being given a sort of indefinite amount of time. however long later being like, well, where the hell are you? You works piling up.

Jimmy:

I wonder when I've now look back on that, at what point would I have sought thought to myself, well, actually they should be back now, or I need them back. Or are they okay? when we talked about this episode, You had some scary but not surprising facts about, how people react when they feel their organization hasn't supported them through the grief process.

Lou:

If a griever or a bere person is coming back to work and they haven't felt supported

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

and this is where, and you know, grief is unique to every single individual. We all grieve very, very differently. My way of grieving is completely different to yours. It's completely different to the next person's. If they come back and they are not supported, over half of those bereave people will leave within 12 months of that bereavement. They will walk out the

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

they will go and find another job elsewhere maybe they don't have to admit that they're grieving. Maybe that can just sort of bury it, but, you know, you are, you are potentially losing a huge amount of value.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

the company an awful lot of money to re-recruit that person with that same amount of knowledge, you know, there's often millions of pounds worth of, uh, knowledge and insight walking out that, that door if that person doesn't feel supported. So it is 51% of people will leave within the first 12 months.

Jimmy:

Yeah. Even if you're a bit hard nosed about, supporting people through these times, that's a scary number to, to wrestle with. So, apart from my open-ended offer, what other thing do you see organizations doing that you just think that's not the right thing or they, you know, that's not gonna help people?

Lou:

One thing that I have heard, which was truly astounding was a gentleman who had lost his child, took the time off, was say, let's say sort of, um, forcibly encouraged to return to work sooner than he was ready to. And the rest of the team, the rest of the office, were told not to speak to him. Do not speak to him. I. From a place of very how should we, what should we say? Well intention. was like, let, we don't want to upset him. Let's just leave him to get on with it. He's gonna be clearly upset, don't say anything. And so the rest of the team were like, well, oh my goodness, what do we say? What, how can we not, but we've been told not to. We don't want to upset him. We don't want to make him cry, uh, in the office. That would be awful for him. And so, and that is the single worst thing that you can do, is ignore it, is pretend it

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

That person has never going to forget that it's happened by not acknowledging their loss. That's just like. that is like number one, do not do that.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

That, that is, terrible, my own experience, I've had, um, an old school mom friend person act actually hide behind the a bin outside Tesco Express and pretend that she was on the phone so that she didn't have to talk to me.

Jimmy:

Really. Wow.

Lou:

Yeah, I mean, that's really ridiculous. Rather than just sort of approach me and say, Lou, I've heard about what's happened. I'm so sorry. She actually pretended to be on the phone and hid behind the bin.

Jimmy:

It's, it is incredible that Our personal awkwardness is more important to us than compassion.

Lou:

Yeah. And what's, what to say to people when they say that? Oh, but I feel so awkward. I feel so uncomfortable. It's

Jimmy:

Yeah,

Lou:

not anywhere near as uncomfortable as they feel.

Jimmy:

it's true.

Lou:

lost their person.

James:

But presumably lots of organizations, then they will have a very hard and fast set of rules and re this is, you know, if it's a spousal child, you can do this. If it's a parent, you can do that. And it will be very regimented and they get this many days and that, and presumably that's all unhelpful.

Lou:

Yes, yes. And I can, I can kind of see, why a company would have to have quite sort of strict policies in place, but isn't taking into account. Any kind of personal relationship, any kind of acknowledgement of what grief actually is and how long grief, grief lasts. That's just very much them thinking about their bottom line and not about the wellbeing of that, that particular individual. For me, if any company can, I would always recommend that, like we've just discussed, have a conversation with the person. Say, I'll be, I'll be back in touch in a, in a month, however long because they might wanna come straight back. They might need a month off in a, in a year's time, they might all of a sudden just hit them. And so just by saying, yeah, oh, if it was a parent, you get, you know, three days to attend the funeral. That's it. So understanding actually. This is a huge, huge burden. It's a, it takes a, an enormous toll on the person. And yeah, it's not a one size fits all thing. You can't have a kind of cookie cutter approach to this. Let's be human about it. This is a human experience, one of the single most human experiences that we will all experience it at some point in our lives.

James:

Yeah.

Lou:

Let's just have a bit of compassion here.

Jimmy:

You'd hope that a lot of organizations with their policies their desire is to help people and care for their employees. And ultimately being a bit hard nosed about it, to get the best performance and to get the best results out of their people to help their business success. If you think about your stat about,, people leaving, if they don't feel supported through that process, I mean, James is the analyst here. He could easily work out if you've got, 23% of the people within a year. Struggling with, with grief, and then, half of the people that aren't supported through it. You could work out the math that, but it's gonna be material in terms of the impact on company's performance ultimately, even if you're hard-nosed about it, even if you're not gonna be caring about things from a, from a, a results and a business perspective. Sure. You've gotta do something about it.

Lou:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think a lot of companies do on the face of it, as a bit of a, maybe a tick box exercise to

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

they're, adhering to the company values. And but you know, even, even people that are mental health first aid trained, they don't get trained in bereavement.

James:

So

Jimmy:

And, and I.

James:

sort of three perspectives. So if I am listening to this and I am company HR director. What should I be doing? If I'm listening to this and I'm a manager, what should I be doing? But also, if I'm listening to this and I'm an individual who's going through process, what should I be doing? So, sorry, I shouldn't ask three questions at once, but could we unpack that? I mean, what would your

Lou:

Yeah.

James:

those people

Jimmy:

Well, I think, sorry, just add a fourth. You are going to have colleagues as well who are going through, so how should I support a, a colleague

Lou:

So if you are an HR director of that company, have a look at your policy. Take a look, look at previous examples of where you might have been dealing and supporting a bereaved person. How would get feedback, get their feedback? you know, we don't, we don't seek feedback often enough, do we? Especially not in, in sort of company, company culture.

James:

Yeah.

Lou:

What worked well for you? What could we have done better in this, in this instance? What if it happens to you again? What would you need from us as a company? And, and take a look at that and take a human centered approach to bereavement policy. Yes, I get there has to be a policy. How flexible is that?. If you are a leader, a manager of a team, and you are then having to, like you say, share that news, deal with that, you need to be grief educated. You need to know what to say, how best to support that person. That's maybe coming back into the team, having experienced a significant loss. You need to more importantly, perhaps know what not to say. You need to understand what grief is. So that you can understand the potential implications on their to do their job the foreseeable. And you need to know how to best keep checking in with that person to you know, make sure that they have the best experience and that they're not one of the 51% that's walking out your door in a year's time. If you are an individual who is grieving, and this is where it gets, I suppose trickier because, as a culture, we're not used to talking about our own feelings and grief, and this is where we just carry it around in that heavy backpack and it gets incredibly heavy. always encourage people, why should the onus always be on the manager or the HR director? That's not fair. That's not fair if the person who is bereaved is not being honest and open and truthful about where they're at today. And that's what it comes down to. You know, grief changes moment to moment. They might go into the office that day feeling okay, someone might walk past them, wafting a perfume, that smell of their mum that they've just lost and that might just collapse their world, in that moment, you just never quite know. And so it's about that individual that's grieving feeling. And this is where. sense of psychological safety at work comes in feeling safe enough to go to their manager, another person trust to say this afternoon I'm all over the place. What can be perhaps taken off my plate today? today's not a good day. And to be able to have that conversation without feeling that their job is then gonna be at risk, or that they're seen as a lower performer. You know, and all of those things. That's where it gets a bit more complex and why we all need to be more grief literate. We all need to be more empowered to talk about our own grief, our own feelings, but also to support those who are, sharing that very, um, sensitive. You know, and that is a privilege for someone to come and share that with you. To take that on and be you know, with, treat it with gentle curiosity and examine how they can be best supported. And then what if a colleague has passed away? There's, EAPs are put in place and people, I know when Pete, my husband died, where he worked, everyone was pointed to the EAP. I don't think anyone took them up on it. I think only. to 3% of the workforce actually use the employee assistant programs that are, that are offered and companies spend a lot of money on for counseling, for support. They were all obviously given the day off to attend his celebration of life. He was incredibly well-respected manager but then kind of after that, I don't think anything was particularly put in place for them. This man that had a huge impact on not just his direct team, but everyone that worked with him., A lot of the measures that are put in place are put in place to help the individual, either the Griever But what about everybody else? What about the rest of the

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

What about when Joe Blogs comes back and you are the one that sits, sits at the desk next to them and you haven't got the fog, what to say?

Jimmy:

I think an an interesting point there about the, some of the things that that organizations put in place aren't very effective and not just with grief. There's a number of things that this would be true of, but they make the organization feel better. You

Lou:

Yes.

Jimmy:

I feel I've got a policy or I've told people they can go and talk to these people so I can sleep well at night because I've done, I've done my bit. But actually your bit is about providing effective help that makes a difference to the individual. So, unless you're going to get to that, you haven't done your bit yet.

Lou:

No. No, you haven't. It's um, it is pain lip service to it, isn't it? Which makes people feel better. But if you're not actually going to truly get to know what grief is all about and really help support that person, then you are, you're just paying. It's a tick box exercise, isn't it? That? Yeah. It makes you feel good. Yeah. Yeah. We've covered that. Yeah. Done tick. And actually, you're not as, you're not any better equipped than the next person.

Jimmy:

And, and I know you've given some hints and, and tips about it as well, and I appreciate to do it properly. We would be here for, most of the day to really help people. But when we were talking, a couple of things that struck me, and I wonder if you've got any more like this. We, you were saying about, actually making specific offers as opposed to. General platitudes I'm here if you need me, sort of thing. And the other, thing that you had mentioned was actually people like to talk about the person they've lost,

Lou:

And again, it's something that, oh, we won't, we won't mention them in case, you know,

Jimmy:

yeah.

Lou:

Haven't forgotten. And so, yeah, so there's, there's two things there. There's being really specific with your offers of help and support. So the whole generic, you know, where I am if you need me, that's about as much use as a chocolate fire guard to be honest, that that person does not know what they need. If you, and this is more difficult from a workplace point of view, but we all, we've all got friends and family members who, who have been in this situation as well, say to them, I'm going to the supermarket. I will, I'm gonna pick you up some bits. Is Wednesday or Thursday better to drop it off for you? It's almost like offering them the choice, but there isn't a choice really.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

My next door neighbor still actually puts my bins out. For me, I haven't got a clue what day it's most of the time. it green bi day or is it black bi day? Thank thank you neighbor. She puts it out for me. And she started to do that really practical things. From a workplace perspective, things that, have gone down well are, like vouchers for, I think they're a national company like Cook, you know, that do like home cooked meals

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

Yeah. Yeah.

Lou:

eat offering to yeah, uh, can I, can I pick the kids up on my way to football training? I'll scoop your son up as well. On the way. Really practical things like that are absolute gold to people who are in the depths of grief. And then talking about them. Yeah. I always say to people, ask, ask permission, because they might be having a wobbly day and they might not feel like they can, they can talk about their person, but always ask, and it's one of, it's like a. A beautiful bit of magic that you can give that grieving person is to, if you knew them as well, share a memory that you might have that they might not have even known about, and they will hold onto that, like it's the most precious, precious gift in the in the world. And then if you didn't know them, just ask them to share a bit of that person with you. You know? Tell me about your mum. What was she like? And that again, is giving them the opportunity. They haven't forgotten that they've died, but it's helping that person bring them back to life again in their memory for that one small moment. And that is the greatest gift that you can give a grieving person. Don't be afraid of thinking, Hmm, I don't want to remind them that they're dead. They have never forgotten that

Jimmy:

No.

Lou:

I don't want to upset them. They're already upset. Ask them. And honestly. That's the single biggest gift that you can give to that person. Remember the anniversary, you know, as a manager, uh, one of the single sort of most effective things that you can do as a manager is make a note of the anniversary. But not only that extra brownie points, you can make a note, say the anniversaries on the 25th of June, make

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

a couple of weeks before the 25th of June, because more often than not, the lead up to these big milestones is worse than the actual day itself. it's the thought of it coming

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

or it hap, you know, it is, oh, we're a year in. Often the day itself kind of comes and goes and it wasn't as bad as you were anticipating Extra brownie points. Check in two or three weeks before. How are you doing? Where are you at? And, you know, have you got any plans for the day? Are you doing anything to remember your person by on, on the anniversary? Or, you know, even days, like Mother's Day, father's Day, Valentine's Day,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

milestones that come along and make you feel really crap, um, and just makes it all feel extra heavy, that extra burden. Just make a note. Ask, ask, check in, check in. And two, two words I use are gentle curiosity. So approach the grieving person with gentle curiosity when you're asking about the person, when you're asking how they are today, this week, again, time, time specificity is really important when you are asking how the person is, because if you ask it, how are you? That's massive.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

in a place where their brain is absolutely, jumbled. How are you? Oh, I don't know. I don't know how I am. I honestly don't know how I am. How am I today? Oh, right. That I can do today. I can, you know, get a, get a

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

So it's, it is

Jimmy:

What,

Lou:

really specific.

Speaker 4:

If you've enjoyed our podcast, please share it with someone you think would benefit from it.

Speaker 5:

Also, like and follow us wherever you get your podcast, or on LinkedIn, TikTok or YouTube. And five star reviews are always welcome.

Speaker 4:

And equally, if you've got any feedback on how we can improve the podcast subjects you'd like us to cover or questions we can help you with, please do get in touch. Email Jimmy at ajo. Done well.com or James as a job done well.com.

James:

Well, you said get grief educated or become grief literate. How would I go about doing that? What, where would you suggest I go to,

Lou:

There's a lot of charities that do a lot of great work and what I find with those is that they are very gentle, very compassionate. I'm, I'm much more, kind of a bit like, I'll tell you how it is because I'm, I'm living it. I've, you know, had someone hide behind a bin, and that's just not acceptable.

James:

Yeah.

Lou:

And say anything to that person at the time, but now I would, because now I'm, I'm using my grief to empower. People. And, and for me it's like, how can you empower, it's not seeing it as something to be afraid of. It's, well, let's empower these people to be able to have better conversations This is what I do in my work. I go in, I help empower people to understand what grief is, have better conversations so that they can be more confidently compassionate because it's, it's going to happen. Grief affects everyone,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

it is

Jimmy:

Yeah.

Lou:

the thing that is least, sort of out there in terms of helping to educate people around how best to manage it.

Jimmy:

and Lou have, have you got a, a website that we can put in the, phone notes?

Lou:

Hines coaching.com. Yeah, you can come in or you can contact me on LinkedIn, ask about my services, ask how I can support you.

Jimmy:

We'll put a link in and you're definitely worth following on LinkedIn'cause some of the articles you put on LinkedIn are really, really informative and thought provoking. So, you know we'll put that on our show notes as well.

Lou:

you.

Jimmy:

Anything else, James, from you?

James:

No, thank you very much for, um, explaining to us

Jimmy:

And thank you, Lou for, sharing your incredible story, turning your grief into something, so positive for so, so many people. Thank you.

Lou:

Pleasure. Thank you for having me.

People on this episode

Head Shot

James Lawther

Co-host
Head Shot

Jimmy Barber

Co-host
Head Shot

Lou Hynes

Guest