A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

How to Work With Difficult People

• Jimmy Barber and James Lawther • Season 3 • Episode 2

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In this week's episode, hosts James Lawther and Jimmy Barber discuss strategies for dealing with difficult people at work. We all know them – those you dread interacting with – maybe they don't listen, or they snipe from the sidelines. Perhaps they ignore you, or nothing ever sticks to them when things go wrong. 

Regardless of who they are, James and Jimmy discuss how to deal with them effectively – both in the moment and over the long term, if their behaviour is systemic.

James and Jimmy also challenge their own behaviour and yours, so that you do not become someone else's 'difficult person'

If that isn’t enough, they also discuss the perils of children flying the nest and how the adage 'it's the hope that kills you' is apt if you're a football fan!

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Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James:

Good afternoon.

Jimmy:

Afternoon, James.

James:

What are we talking about today then?

Jimmy:

Today we are gonna help people have better and easier interactions with difficult people.

James:

Okay. Is this code for how to talk to people without losing your shit? Is that what you're telling me?

Jimmy:

Exactly. You know the ones, James, you're in a meeting, you've just done a fantastic presentation. Everyone around the room is nodding and smiling, and then that one person says, yes, I agree, but, and immediately you get the rush of blood. So we all deal with, we all work with difficult people. They may be, they don't listen, they're opinionated, they're bullies. The one thing they're having in common, they're not easy or enjoyable to work with. But by the end of the day, we will help people be able to work with them more productively.

James:

Are we gonna list any of these people today or not?

Jimmy:

Well, it'll be like looking in the mirror, I think.

James:

Alright. Something

Jimmy:

Okay.

James:

forward to there. Go on then. So before we get into that. What's been going on in your life?

Jimmy:

Well, James, I've just been experiencing that age old saying, and it's just so true. It's the hope that kills you. As a Nottingham Forest fan, we have played in the first three games, we have played the best football. I've seen them play and the worst football I've seen them play. The problem is. My expectation now is they're up here. You know, they're, they've been in the Premier League, they got into Europe. They've spent 200 million pounds on players. They are going to be fantastic. And at the weekend they were awful. And it is, it genuinely is the hope that kills you. If I wasn't expecting them to win, it'd be all right when they were shit. But I was expecting something and I was so disappointed afterwards. Football's a horrible game.

James:

I've got a question about

Jimmy:

Gone.

James:

Well, do you think I give a damn?

Jimmy:

No, I don't. I am just expressing my envy for the fact that, that hope it never impacts you. You don't care

James:

No, I don't. We need, we need a listener poll. How many people care how not in forest to do it?

Jimmy:

what they might not care about. Not forests, but I'm telling you, the majority of people care about some form of football or sport James stuff that you don't like any of

James:

am, I'll take you.

Jimmy:

anyhow.

James:

that's my favorite sport.

Jimmy:

Swimming

James:

Synchronized swimming. It's great. I love it when they open their noses and disappear into the water with their legs up. I think it must be a bit kinky.

Jimmy:

I want there, there's just a, a plethora of, of insults and piss taking, opening up. I'm gonna stop there. You tell me what you, you've been up to then.

James:

Oh, well, it's been a very big week in the Lord, the household,

Jimmy:

yeah.

James:

daughter has left,

Jimmy:

Just flown the nest.

James:

Yeah, she's found the mess. She's got a job down in the smoke in London and she's gone. I put her on the train yesterday and she's not ever coming back. It's not like when she goes to university and she's you know, she's gonna come back. She has gone and she's got no intention of ever coming

Jimmy:

Oh, she's not gonna visit you

James:

well, probably not.

Jimmy:

the way you say it.

James:

about me. Yeah, no, of course you'll come back. But it's

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

a bit, it's a bit odd isn't,

Jimmy:

it's a bit final, isn't it?

James:

20 odd years with this child and then all of a sudden they go

Jimmy:

Yeah. It's not child anymore though, mate.

James:

Not a child anymore, so it's a bit strange, but there you go. That's what's happened in the law of the household this week.

Jimmy:

Big week.

James:

Yeah. Anyway, go on then. So talk to me difficult people. Why am I worried about this then? What's why should anybody listen to this

Jimmy:

Well, I think the, the, the thing is difficult. People are not

James:

I.

Jimmy:

rare. It is that we all work with them and, even if I think back to my most favorite job, in my most favorite organisation when I was enjoying it the most, I still found there were difficult people around.

James:

Yeah, there's always one or two.

Jimmy:

Workplace conflict is one of the top five stressors that people say. impacts their, their performance and enjoyment at work. So,

James:

a is that Jimmy Fact or have we got that from somewhere reliable?

Jimmy:

James, stop worrying about where we've got facts from. This is, that is actually a real fact. It's not something I've made up

James:

This is like a Trump podcast. We don't care about truths and the facts.

Jimmy:

James If I was doing a Trump fact, it would be rather more outfield left field than that, wouldn't it?

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

Would, I'd, I'd turn around and say workplace conflict. Everyone, every single person has it as the number one thing that impacts their lives. That's more Trump-like.

James:

Alright,

Jimmy:

Anyhow,

James:

It's a top five stressor

Jimmy:

And, and it impacts your performance, your wellbeing, how long you stay in a job, your time. It takes your head space, your energy. So one important thing we are going to talk about here is not how you change difficult people because

James:

There you come.

Jimmy:

you can't, and, and so what we're gonna talk about is not ha changing their behavior, but we are gonna focus on how you can change your behavior in your responses.

James:

Yeah, that's a very good point. I was once told you cannot change anybody else. You can only change yourself. And I think that's quite a useful frame of reference.

Jimmy:

Yes. Another stat for you James,

James:

Now, another Jimmy fact go on.

Jimmy:

another Jimmy Fact. 38% of UK employees say conflict is a regular part of their work life. So, and that isn't actually Jimmy fact, that was A-C-I-P-D fact. So, but it is a regular thing, you know, you can't avoid it.

James:

38% if it's regular. That's a big deal,

Jimmy:

Yeah, exactly.

James:

In fact, it's something to be dealt with. It really actually,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Big productivity problem.

Jimmy:

Yes. I.

James:

So go on then. Talk to me about difficult people. What type of difficult people have you come across?

Jimmy:

Oh God, there's all sorts. And this is, this is slightly tongue in cheek, James, but you get people like, the, well, the people that I've experienced and we will, shall, shall we be diplomatic and not mention names, but.

James:

that's.

Jimmy:

There will be pe, there will be people guarantee you listening to this podcast, who we, we would categorize as difficult people equally. I guarantee you. There'll be people listening to this podcast who would say that you and I were difficult people to work with.

James:

I think it's hard to believe.

Jimmy:

And No, it's true. It's true. Anyhow, you get people who like, you get these people that are like bulldozers, they're loud, they're domineering, they dismissive. They just ignore everything you're saying.

James:

Don't let you get a word in edgewise.

Jimmy:

Sorry,

James:

They don't let you get a word in edgewise.

Jimmy:

edgewise.

James:

Edgewise edgewise. Well, it's edgewise with me isn't, it'd be

Jimmy:

It is it's way. It's edgewise. It's edgeways.

James:

No

Jimmy:

leads us to the second per second one, James the sniper, the person who sits on the sidelines and just makes little psychy comments. Does that one sound at all familiar?

James:

done that.

Jimmy:

Never edgewise indeed.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

So, so we've probably covered a little bit of you and I in the first couple. The next one I think is, it's the victim. The person who's always hard done by, it's never their fault, you know?

James:

for everything. Always deflecting stuff hard done by Yeah, I know the type,

Jimmy:

And the next one I think is the ghost. People just avoid, they just avoid everything. You can never pin them down, you can never get them on the hook for anything.

James:

Yeah, they always seem to avoid getting a Bullock, him for not doing

Jimmy:

Yeah. Never get in trouble. These people often, they, they, they spend lots of time, some of them manage their bosses so well, and you get that, that one that always gets me is, we all think they're a, a, a knob, but the bosses love them. It is because they've been focusing upwards, not on the ghost. You,

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

what about you, James?

James:

Oh, got. How about the gossip

Jimmy:

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

James:

You just spent rumor creates drama shares, confidential information, you know, whole nine yards, undermines trust, that type of person

Jimmy:

Do you know James? There was there was one point in early in my career when I was working in bank shots. My nickname was Mr. Gossip,

James:

So I find that very hard to believe.

Jimmy:

which, which

James:

call you that?

Jimmy:

I can't, I, I can't imagine. But this, I may have been guilty of some of this stuff.

James:

Yeah. I've got another one. You have it there. The controller micromanager to have a hand on everything of overly critical and often nitpicks. You see any of yourself in that one or, or not?

Jimmy:

Oh no, I could, could be guilty of some things, but micromanager, I, I would definitely nitpick, but I can't, that would imply I had to get into the detail, which is never, never my strong point.

James:

Alright. Alright. Another one I'm a bit guilty of the cynic. So that's person you constantly focuses on problems. It will never work. Yeah.

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

new ideas dampening enthusiasm. Do you know the sort of person who says, yeah, we tried that 30 years ago and it didn't work there. That's

Jimmy:

the old,

James:

work. I turned into that man. I had tried it 30 years ago and it didn't work then.

Jimmy:

the, the old wasn't invented Hay syndrome.

James:

that's a good one.

Jimmy:

In fairness. In fairness, I am one of the organizations we worked together in, I left because I felt that people thought I was a cynic. And at that point I thought actually I, I don't wanna be that. I actually don't wanna be that person.

James:

Times again.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah. Drama queen, ever come across the drama queen. Just lots of emotional outbursts. Unpredictable.

Jimmy:

James, I've never, never done that in my life. It is like, it's scripted, isn't it?

James:

and the one, the one which I just gets my goat Absolutely. Yeah. The passive aggressive type

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah. So just I don't really know how to describe it, but they, they, they're never overtly in your face, but it's just, oh, this stream of negativity. Does my head. in,

Jimmy:

I dunno if I've ever told you a story., I won't mention the person's name, but there was somebody who we worked with who always, always said to you what was wrong with something, you know, if you said, this is what we're gonna do, they always said it won't work because of X, Y, Z. They're always on the negative. I confronted them about it at one point and I said to'em, you, you just come across as being a very negative person because you always put, pointing out all the reasons why everyone else's ideas won't work. You know what they said? They turned around and said it's because I'm trying to help you because I'm so much faster than everyone else and I can see all the things before you can. So I figure it's my duty to be helpful and share that with you.

James:

Well, there you go. Did you Did you enjoy the feedback or not?

Jimmy:

Yeah, I know they put the lights out,

Speaker:

As well as recording this podcast, we help individuals, teams, and entire organizations achieve outstanding results.

Speaker 2:

If you'd like to find out more about how we can help you, please get in touch email, either jimmy@ajodowell.com or James at ajo dunwell com.

James:

Go on and gimme some of your experience then dealing with difficult people. What have you had to put up with?

Jimmy:

Oh God, too many to name James. Some of them are listening in to today, I'm sure. But I think an interesting point is sometimes I think the ones that I find more difficult won't necessarily be the ones that you've people you find more difficult. So that last one you talked about, passive aggressive.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

I find difficult because I hate hypocrisy. So there you've got somebody who is saying one thing and they mean something else. So that I react to. I find that sort of person really difficult to deal with, but you might not. So I think one thing to consider is how you react to other people can be a reflection of their behavior, but equally it can be a reflection of your experience, your values, and stuff like that. And I think the other point which people should reflect on when we're going through this is. I'm sure there are a number of people throughout my career that find me difficult. And it's understanding if you show up as being a difficult person for others, why do you show up as being difficult? I remember when we were at Cat one together some of the teams that were. Supporting us in sales. I remember them talking to me and they said that I was a very demanding customer and they had actually understood that when I said I wanted XI didn't actually know I wanted x. I was just saying it out loud and it was just my initial thoughts, but I said it really confidently and they learned that about me. And then when they explained it to me, I learned that about me as well. So I realized that I was sounding too definitive about my requests and I wasn't always right., So, sometimes giving people that feedback can help them learn about why they're difficult as well. So what about you?

James:

yeah, I totally get that. I mean, on a personal basis you suggested earlier on, but I can be a price sniper and cynic I can. It just, my reasons for doing that is I hear people talking about things which I honestly don't believe will work, and I honestly think they're a waste of time. And that is almost my go-to position. And my rationale for doing it actually is just'cause I don't want to do it. And I want us to move on with something more productive. However, it's really not helpful and when it's with people who I've worked with work for a long time, they know me, they're quite happy to slap, slap back. And as you rightly say, that puts you back on the right foot and put you in a a better frame of mind. never really helped me being a sniper or a nic. It has given me some sort of you know, black, humorous moments, but it, it doesn't really take me

Jimmy:

No,

James:

I think there's that point there, which is if you find yourself being that person, don't be that person'cause it didn't help you.

Jimmy:

Do you remember when we were part of the same team and we used to ask people to come in and present to us, and we wanted their ideas, we wanted to really support their ideas. Then some of them told us that we were very intimidating to come and present to because we were sniping and throwing stuff around and they didn't know us that well. So I think that's another point is, you know, sometimes in groups you can become difficult even though you don't intend. We didn't intend to be difficult, but it's just how we showed up. And then when they turned around and told us that we did try and change our behavior. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Genuine.

James:

Yeah. Yeah. So don't be that person. It's my first thing.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

other thing though is there there was one guy who was just the word for him. He was like a Sherman tank and oh. The bloke was just unbelievable to the point where I just am. Removed myself from the situation I got out of his way was somebody you just could not deal with. It was an absolutely bullying, a self-op, opinionated clown. then that was the way I dealt with it. But I think an interesting point is usually these behaviors are about insecurity. They want something and they dunno how to get it. So I suppose really that takes us to, if you are. Confronted with somebody

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

then go on. You are Mr. Politics. How how should I not see a red miss? What should I do to stay grounded?

Jimmy:

I think there's a few things that you can do, James. I think the first point is learn, but you can control yourself. You can't control them. So is about thinking about the things that you can do. Sometimes it is about not taking things personally as well. So to your point, it's driven out of their insecurity. But I think one of the things that I learned was how do you understand what it is that triggers you? So what are the situations? Who are the people that really get you and build that understanding of what the triggers are? So then when they say something that is gonna trigger you. Take a pause. It's the old classic, count to 10 before you respond. You don't actually have to count to 10. Literally. You can do whatever you like. You can say stump in your head. You can take a deep breath, whatever it's, but

James:

Repeat. You are a twat. You are a twat 10 times

Jimmy:

if you wanna say that three times in your head, just create that space. Don't care what you do, but create a space between the trigger that you've now understood and your response. Because when you then respond, you can respond intentionally how you wanna respond as opposed to just responding emotionally. And that is so much easier for you to not, be triggered by them.

James:

Well, there's an interesting point there though when you say understand the trigger. So I, as I said, my daughter's just left, but I found myself, oh, we were arguing. I was arguing with my daughter and you know, doesn't put you in a good position when you're arguing with your 20 odd year old daughter. But I came to the conclusion that the trigger was actually, she was going,

Jimmy:

Yes.

James:

20 years looking after this child

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

all of a sudden I was no longer needed. But once I'd understood that was the trigger for me and I was responding badly to it, I was able to, calm down some of my worst behaviors, but it is, understanding the trigger is really very important, so I totally agree with that. So take time to

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

trigger is.

Jimmy:

And once you've created that space and you're going to respond, just don't take the bait. Quite often difficult. People elicit certain responses. They're not always positive responses. Don't, don't react in the way that, either they want you to or the way that you instinctively feel that you've got to do it. So if Is

James:

hang on. I am gonna name names

Jimmy:

okay, go.

James:

and I know he listens. Bloody rich. So our, our mate, I used the word make very, you know, broad his term. I'll make rich. We go drinking with rich. And I am, as you probably know, I'm a bit of a champagne socialist and we were out and we had a couple of pints and he just started pushing my hot buttons. And of course I could down myself. I'm about three pints in, so all of a sudden. I'm biting

Jimmy:

Oh yeah.

James:

I bit, yeah, he threw another one in

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

he's sitting there. It was like he was fishing. He was loving

Jimmy:

No, it was like watching a cat just toying with a mouse, just playing with you. Every time you settled down it'd say something else You just took the bait every time.

James:

yeah. So what I need to do is stop and say you are a try. You are a try in my head three times

Jimmy:

Yes.

James:

I'll

Jimmy:

And then respond, but then don't.

James:

probably not have three pints when you're dealing with these people either.

Jimmy:

Yeah, but also.

James:

But don't take the

Jimmy:

Don't take the bait, but respond. Respond in a productive way. So if somebody, to your point earlier, is a bulldozer, trying to fight a bulldozer with strength isn't the answer. Trying to fight a sniper with a cheap shot back isn't the answer. Find ways of nullifying their impact. It's that classic old cliche of, wasn't it, Obama said when they go low, we go high and all that sort of stuff. Just don't behave the way they are.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

The next thing I, I think about is also

James:

Interesting. That

Jimmy:

Go on.

James:

don't behave the way they are. It's maybe don't behave the way they expect.

Jimmy:

Good point.

James:

very

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

If you look at what's going on in the states at the moment, and the whole Gavin knew something with his trolling with his tweets, well actually he's responding exactly the same way.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

But it's definitely having an impact. Whether or not it's a good impact will remain to be seen, but yeah, there's a classic case of dealing with a different person. Alright, so don't take the bank

Jimmy:

Yeah. And then I think,

James:

time. I'm not taking the

Jimmy:

don't take the boat and set some boundaries, James.

James:

Oh, go on then. What's that then?

Jimmy:

Well, I think sometimes, either set the boundaries with the person, which often means you have to call out their behavior and explain to them, James, I don't, I don't wanna talk politics with you'cause you and I are gonna disagree. So, you know, set some boundaries or. In some instances, sometimes the boundaries you have set are internal. In other words, I'm just gonna avoid the situations with that person where they are getting under my skin, where they're taking my energy. And so set some boundaries either internally or externally with that person.

James:

Yeah. All right. So. I've understood the trigger. I'm not taking the bait. I've set some boundaries. Anything else?

Jimmy:

Well, I think also sometimes when it's a a relationship, you're with the person quite a bit think a bit more deeply about the, the reason for their behavior. So you are just thinking, they're a bully or whatever. Sometimes if you think to your point, a lot of the behavior is driven by insecurity and if you just try and think more deeply and try and get some understanding about what's behind the behavior. Is it fear? Is it insecurity? What else could be true about the situation that they're seeing that you're not? I think that deepening that thought might change your mindset about people you know, and so that that also helps.

James:

And that's a bit like

Jimmy:

I.

James:

those seven habits, isn't it? Seek first to understand and then be understood. But the very fact you do that, you it's like giving yourself, extra options, aren't you? You're creating options for yourself, so I think that's really very, very important.

Jimmy:

It also helps a lot of the situations to depersonalize it. If I understand your. Trying to bulldoze me every time we have a conversation, I understand that you've got some insecurities behind it, a it depersonalizes it from being about me, so you're not just trying to make it personal to me, but also then as you say, opens options. if you follow some of the advice we've given you do so with the maximum number of options that you can have, as opposed to, I'm just gonna react to them and, and they're in control of my reaction. And yeah, you're almost like a puppet on a string, aren't you? In those situations, what we're talking about here is cut the strings, choose your behaviors.

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James:

So that's all very well, but if it's an ongoing problem, yeah. And this con person is constantly hard work,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

would you go about dealing with that?

Jimmy:

So the way I would think about it, James, is it, if you know it's going to be a systemic problem and it's long and it's ongoing,, I would start to document my key interactions with that person and I,'cause I think that gives you a, a, a little bit more evidence of what's actually happening. It makes you think about it a little bit more. And when you think about it, you get, you'll generate some more options. Second thing I'd do is I'd build some allies and get some perspective from others. Talking to other people. About their experience of this person. So is it something that relates just to you, in which case you can think about how you deal with it? Sometimes you do need to be quite assertive with somebody about the impact they're having on you. So if they are, continually doing this, you do need to, really talk to'em about it. If you don't let them know as, as we said about, the people who used to come into our team and found us intimidating, we were mortified when we found that out, weren't we? And you know, so I think sometimes you have to call out the behaviors, particularly say if it's a long, ongoing thing, it's not just a one off. Then I think we've got that.

James:

know, but by assertive you mean actually sit down and have a.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

A

Jimmy:

a direct conversation.

James:

When you do this, this is what it

Jimmy:

This is the impact on me.

James:

Yeah. Okay.

Jimmy:

them. Let them know.'cause they may not understand the impact they're having.

James:

Yeah,

Jimmy:

But

James:

you rightly said, we were mortified when we

Jimmy:

yeah, we were,

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

and remember your boundaries. People are, you've gotta protect your energy. You've gotta protect your wellbeing. So, set yourself some boundaries and that may mean, times you have to choose, where you're working, how you're working, the teams you're in, and stuff like that. And that's not easy and that can take a while, but sometimes that is, important to have some boundaries in your life.

James:

give me an example. I'm not sure I get that one.

Jimmy:

So there've been times when I've done all these things to try and improve situations, and actually I found it easier to go and work in a different team. Go and work in different projects, maybe even change roles altogether,

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

just'cause you've gotta get yourself out of that.'cause you, you've gotta look after your, your energy, your life, your wellbeing. But.

James:

no, totally That one.

Jimmy:

but to be honest, before you're doing that, one of the things I'd consider doing is, is escalating. So if you are having a systemic problem and you know that, that this person continues to do this to you and to others, and you tried some of these things, then you should be escalating and getting some help.

James:

Yeah. Okay. And actually, if you're gonna escalate it, documenting things and

Jimmy:

That helps.

James:

and actually having, being able to say, I have sat down with

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

All of these things help. Yeah. Yeah. Got it.

Jimmy:

because you, you wanna, you don't want to just escalate, James and I have had an argument, therefore I'm gonna escalate to our boss. But if I'm going back and saying, look, I've written down, here's, here's the evidence I've got that the problem I'm having. Here's what I've done to try and resolve that. Can you help? That's a much more powerful way of dealing with it.

James:

So let me just summarize that then, so I've got it straight in my head.

Jimmy:

Yep,

James:

one, document the interactions.

Jimmy:

yep.

James:

write it down. Give yourself a bit of thinking time. Number two, build some allies. Either they will help you or they'll give you a bit of a cold, hard truth, which maybe might be helpful to you.

Jimmy:

Yep.

James:

Hard to do, but actually taking somebody aside and saying, you know, when you do this, this is the impact you have on us or me. Yeah, it's actually a very positive thing to do. Be clear about your boundaries. You know, if you have to withdraw it from your, the situation, withdraw from the

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah.'cause actually you're probably better off out of it than in it.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

then finally you can escalate, but probably better to escalate after you've done those other things.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Lovely. suppose the key thing is you've always got a choice, haven't you? Another thing you said in one of the early podcasts is nothing lasts forever. Yeah, you might be working with a right clown, but you won't be clown might be your boss, but you know, bosses come and bosses go.

Jimmy:

And they, and they do.

James:

is forever.

Jimmy:

And also people go through different phases in their life. You dunno what's happening for people outside of work. They might be going through a difficult time, which is why they're acting out at work. So, situations do pass.

James:

So go on then. Any final thoughts on that?

Jimmy:

Well, hopefully, you know, we've given some people some advice that, difficult people, you're always gonna face them. It is a little bit of a personal thing, as in, I find different people difficult than you will. It's often not personal. It's not about you. And we've shared some of the things that you can do to deal with situations in the moment, or if they are ongoing situations.

James:

Lovely. And I think the thing for me is always seek first to understand. So try and understand what is driving their behavior.'cause that just gives you room to ate.

Jimmy:

Yeah, and you'll be pleased to know James. We have got some follow ups later in season three on this, which will also help where Amanda's going to join us and talk about specifically how you have those difficult conversations that we touched on. And we've got somebody who's going to come and talk to us about how you use conflict to to have positive outcomes. So more to come.

James:

Well, I hope you found that interesting conversation. If it's been useful, please do like, and subscribe'cause it helps us move the podcast on And I shall speak to you next week.

Jimmy:

Thanks everyone.

James:

Cheers. Now.

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are outta control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised, just keeps failing to deliver, we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations, get in touch at Jimmy at@jobdonewell.com orJames@jobdonewell.com.

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host