A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

How You Can Make Work a Source of Vitality

• Jimmy Barber, James Lawther and Ben Simpson • Season 3 • Episode 5

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Do you end each day full of energy or drained and in need of recovery? This week's guest, Ben Simpson, believes that our working lives should be a source of vitality, and not something we have to recover from, and he shares his insights on how to achieve that.

Ben is the Chair of the Deming Alliance in the UK and co-founder of VitalOrg, so he knows plenty about what makes organisations and people tick. 

Plus, you hear from hosts James Lawther and Jimmy Barber to see if their working lives were ever a source of vitality.

If that isn't enough, James takes a walk down memory lane, visiting universities with his daughter, whilst Jimmy is just back from the sun, with panda eyes to prove it. 

Got a question - get in touch. Click here.

Speaker 3:

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James:

Good afternoon. How are you?

Jimmy:

Afternoon, James. I'm well, how are you doing?

James:

doing fabulously. Thank you very much. What we're talking about today now?

Jimmy:

Today we are going to be talking about how you can ensure that your work is a source of vitality. Not the cause of recovery that some of us experience at the end of each working day. So we have a, an expert on this subject to give us some insights But before we get into that, James,

James:

that,

Jimmy:

before we get into that,

James:

into that, let's have the gossip, what we've been up to. No, I know. I can tell.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

you, were you went to a sun

Jimmy:

I haven't, I haven't washed, I haven't washed for a couple of weeks. No, just,

James:

got pan eyes, mate. You must have some world class

Jimmy:

oh, yeah, yeah.

James:

what do you call them? Those, do you call it? Oh, hang on. It'll come to me.

Jimmy:

Sunglasses.

James:

goggles. That's it. Welding goggles.

Jimmy:

I had a week in Santorini which was very nice. I. Tell you more about that, but it's a, a fantastic island. It is just, it's small, but it's, got the right level between sort of authenticity and tourism to keep everyone happy. So

James:

Santorini was an expensive beer.

Jimmy:

no. Funny enough, no it's not. It's a Greek island built on a volcano.

James:

Well, I, on the other hand, I have had a very disturbing weekend. I took my youngest daughter, my youngest daughter is looking at universities.

Jimmy:

yeah.

James:

University. I went to Liverpool University, and as I was walking around Liverpool University walking around corners thinking, oh, I remember this well, I remember this, I remember this. It occurred to me at his 37 bloody years since I was at Liverpool University. So it was rather a a, a worrying moment for me.

Jimmy:

And did she like, did she like Liverpool?

James:

Yeah, she liked Liverpool isn't a lot. Not to like about Liverpool, if you ask me Party City, but but it rains as it always does in Liverpool.

Jimmy:

I'm refraining from any football jobs. At the point when you say there's nothing to dislike about Liverpool

James:

Let's introduce our guests. So we have got with us. Ben. I know Ben, I have to admit, I know Ben as the chairman, no less of the Deming Alliance in the uk. So go on Ben, introduce yourself and tell us what you do.

ben:

Thank you guys and yeah, thank you so much for inviting me along. I've really enjoyed many episodes of your wonderful podcast. So yeah, delighted to join with you on this conversation about a matter that's really, really close to my heart. I personally believe that as Jamie just said. Work should have a net positive impact on our mental, emotional, and physical health. It can provide structure and purpose and a sense of community. And with all that in mind, it's, to me it's a bit of a crying shame that we have a whole industry that, 60 billion pounds a year just in the uk. That's all about repairing people after the experience of work. It seems to make much more sense to me to design work in such a way that it's it's healthy and brings that vitality that to me mentioned.

James:

Well, I always get a bit worried when people start throwing figures about Ben.'cause you know, I've had Nigel Farage talking about immigration this morning, in my ear So tell me, where'd you get your 60 billion from then? So, how.

ben:

Do not put me in the same bracket as Farage or else we might stop being friends very, very quickly. Yeah. There's a body of evidence that has looked at, the engagement and wellbeing industry sort of took off, I dunno, 10, 15 years ago. And that is the sum of money that they come up with. And the really striking indication from that research is. Is that all of that monetary and time effort into improving people's wellbeing at work has very little, really negligible effect on people's wellbeing and can actually have an adverse effect on people's wellbeing. So that's. Talent becomes a bit more sticky because of those perks. But in terms of enhancement of wellbeing, when we spend our money. An effort directed at the individual as opposed to the system. We should expect that only to be a negligible impact of improved wellbeing. And we do run the risk of actually making it worse. And, and if you think about it, that's actually not that crazy. Maybe not as crazy as it sounds because. By implication if we are directing our, our efforts at the individual. The implied message there is, well, it's something to do with you then, and you need help and you need support, whereas. When we look at the system, you know, that's a tide that raises all boats and the, the, the attention is there not on the individual for being flaky and not resilient enough. But, but more on, well, actually how, how do we redesign the way that we work such that it's more joyful, rewarding, and intrinsically motivational.

James:

Well, so I agree with you. So you're preaching to the choir a little bit, but go and tell me what is the problem with the way we work Then why, why does it not work?

ben:

Whew, that, that's quite a big question. So if we let, let's look at it. Super big picture. I think that, you know, you and I Jones big fan of the book of Edwards w Deming in the 1960s. He was made famous by his ideas that said that the, the old sort of industrial revolution era tayloristic type management was predicated on the idea of control and that we needed to get away from that. And to this day. I think control is a word that is rarely used, but actually if you dig into organizational challenges very often the, the tentacles of causality will find their way into some level of control.

James:

But why? But why doesn't that work? Don't you think? I mean, why? What's different from the 1950s and 1940s? Why is control a bad thing?

ben:

Yeah, it's a good question. So you know, at the risk of state and the bleeding obvious, the nature of work has changed profoundly, you know, in the industrial era. We took people essentially who had been working on the land and brought them into, you know, cotton mills and et cetera. And what was right and proper for efficiency at that stage was division of labor, specialization of task. Keep people's notice as a grindstone, get them to make X amount of pins a day. We don't live in that world anymore. And increasingly with the advent of ai we are going to need people to show up, not just with their brains, but bringing a level of inventiveness and creative brilliance to their work if we want our organization to stay ahead. So if you want innovation, if you want creative brilliance, then the one way that we don't get that. Control the micromanaging people.

James:

Yeah, and I think, I don't think people get this, Ben, so I agree totally. But there's a, there's a lovely, I think it's a Ted to, I can't remember if it's bad, but it's something like how to make a toaster or called something like that. But what this guy did was he said, well, I'm gonna make a toaster and I'm gonna make a toaster at home. So he went out and he bought the cheapest toaster he could lay his hands on. He tried to reverse engineer it and he came to the conclusion very quickly, they didn't have a hope in hell of making a toaster. And so when we say, you know, work has got more complicated, it has because the products we offer are more complicated and the services we offer are more complicated and nobody stands a hope in hell of understanding all of that, let alone controlling it. So I'm absolutely with you. I think as a management perspective, you've gotta back off with the control'cause you can't control what you don't understand.

Jimmy:

I think also just, more recently, I think work has changed. Again, like you say, Ben, AI is changing it fast, but the world post COVID, The working world has changed again, as lot of us work remotely. And I think that has also potentially surfaced the issues with control because all of a sudden you've got a very distributed workforce. And previously, you know, you had got everyone in one place and you had figured out the ways of working in your organization with everyone in one place, and all of a sudden they're distributed. And I think that's caused a lot of organizations and leaders within organizations to revert back to that sort of command and control way of doing things because that's how they can feel comfortable that they're getting the best out of their people when actually. Almost the reverse is true. So I think you,

James:

becomes very heavy handed, doesn't it,

Jimmy:

yeah.

James:

about, you know, how much time are you logged on, on your

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

I read something about some software, which measured whether or not you were doing, moving your mouse and tapping on your keyboard.

Jimmy:

And how how many times are you logging into the building?'cause you got to be in three days a week, haven't you? And checking people's passes as to whether they had they, what they had swiped into the building three days a week. All of this stuff is, is all about control I think that the win-win in here is that if you can create situations and environments where. People thrive, do well, enjoy, get vitality. And we've talked about this in a previous episode, you can also get superior performance. I reflect back on my career, there's been times when, I actually have been enjoying work and it doesn't matter if it's, really pressured and I'm working really hard when I come home, I have loads of energy, and I want to do stuff and. And then there's times when I'm doing crap work. It could be easier, but it's still crap. Well, I feel I'm getting nowhere. I'll come home. I've gotta lie on the sofa and have a nap. know? And it was only was through, talking to you recently, Ben, but I've sort of reflected back. Yeah. Actually it does correlate between, enjoyment and what I'm getting out of the work and how I feel at home. So I think as a subject, it's, it's hugely important because, as you say, organizations aren't setting themselves up to. Create this environment for people to thrive and people to feel that vitality at the end of each day. Are they really?

James:

Yeah, but if everybody wants to control their own destiny. And actually, if you're being told what to do by your manager all the time, that's really demotivating. I suppose if you're a manager and the real question is what do you do instead? Don't all rush to answer me. It got tricky there, didn't it? Boys clever.

Jimmy:

We, we can opine about what, how things should be. Now James, you're put on the spot to say how thing, how do we get there? It's not so easy.

ben:

So it is, it is a good question. And, and I'm not saying it's easy so, yeah, there's plenty that people can do very often unwittingly and with the best intentions. That demotivates them, you know? So this is a bit apocryphal, but on Monday the middle manager gets a call from the boss's boss. Yeah. Hello there. Jimmy wants to discuss your, budget and targets for next year. We're gonna, I know you've said this, but I want this plus x. So you, you're ling around working out with your team how you might be able to deliver that without compromising customer service and working people to point burnout and whatever. So yeah, on, on on Wednesday you know, the mandatory resilience training rolls around. So you've gotta find time to do that. And, and, and let's not forget who's the problem here. Your flaky, you need resilience training. That's the implicit message. And then on Friday when you're about to go home, you know, your boss's boss's boss phones up and said, I'm sure we can do better. And everybody wants high performance. Everybody wants their people to, to be able to cope with the buffets and turbulence of working life, that that training was put in place with the best of intentions. What a wonderful way to absolutely screw up someone's nervous system. And yet organizations are doing this sort of stuff all the time. So, in answer to your thorny question, I think we need to, we need a fundamental revisit in the way that we design lead organized and manage work. And we need to do it in the context of. Knowledge work remote and flexible, very uncertain times, and, and commander control flies in the face of all of those things. And yet we find, certainly in this country and in many Western economies, we find it really, really hard to decouple ourselves from that old way of.

Jimmy:

Just to pick up on something you said there, and James, this echoes a conversation we had a little while ago about demotivating people is, and I know this is a bit slightly rose tinted view, but people start a job. They are, they're, they're fundamentally excited and motivated, know, young people going out to work. You change jobs, you get a new company, new job in a company, you, you fundamentally, I would, I reckon nine times outta 10 people are excited. You're raring to go and then the system conspires to knock that out of you. And I think one of the things that,, a team manager can do. Try and protect that individual's motivation that's fundamentally there and try and stop it from being knocked out of them. And we talked Ben about, the concept of being an umbrella, didn't you? And I think you had some really good, interesting views on that.

ben:

I think that is a key, so for, for someone who is in a middle management position of a largest organization, it's very, very easy for us to feel powerless. And that we don't have control and we get done to you know, by the mothership or whatever. But interestingly enough, most CEOs I speak to express a feeling of powerlessness.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

ben:

A lot of that is, part of the, our human psyche and human experience, limiting beliefs, et cetera, et cetera. But I think your example's a really good one. I think good leaders that I have observed. Do this my umbrella really, really consistently, consistently.

Jimmy:

So you're in the middle of the organization and what do you. Let down to your team and what do you protect them from? And I used to slightly tongue in cheek, admittedly, tell to people, well, shit slides downwards.

ben:

Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And being, and being choiceful and intentional about what you protect them from what needs to be filtered, but still reach them and what needs to. Go down to them in, in its full fat original version. I think that's a habit that can have a huge cumulative difference over time because it gives people, what, what we're doing here is we're giving people space, aren't we? We're giving people space so they're not troubled by the, by the hope. I'm not gonna upset anybody. I'm using inverted signs by the nonsense that comes down from mother. But we've described really clear boundaries. We've set what the intent is of, of their role and we've put them in a role where they've got all the tools and skills that they need to make the most of their potential and do a great job. If we do that, then I would, I would hope that people will find their work is is joyful, restorative, and.

James:

So we've got, I mean so far we've talked about just protecting your employees. We've talked about making sure they've got the skills and resources that they need. else can managers do then to make work source of vitality?

ben:

So for me, there are a couple of things. They're both around kind of development. I know that I've heard you two guys in the past say, well, in, in the best organizations and the best team, everybody's got two jobs. One is to do their job and the other is to improve how their job works or develop themselves, or develop their team, or develop the organization or develop the business. So with that development work comes the opportunity for, for variety.'cause for a lot of people, work is cyclic. Whether that's has a periody or whether that's project work. So for a great many people, one week can feel a lot like last week. And

James:

Yeah.

ben:

week's not gonna be much different either. The neuroscientists have got hold of this and, and, and that really, that's really unhelpful for the, for the human psyche. So the developmental work. So encouraging people to do improvement work in our view that's best done by adopting the scientific method, which is just another way of describing experimentation. Brings with it. Not just variety, but a sense of progress and momentum. So I think that is something a practice, a habit that, any leader of any team can institute in their team, even if they keep it on, you know, under the radar If you're improving stuff, you should be gaining time back. So you don't, once that initial investment is made, you've gained time which you can then give back to people to improve how their work works.

Jimmy:

Just help me understand that, Ben, a second. So, fundamentally I think what you're saying is that we all are responsible for developing and improving ourselves, the people around us, the environment. Are you saying that the way of doing that is to. Accept the world is continually changing and use experimentation as a way of evolving, or are these two separate things? Development and experimentation,

ben:

I think one's the objective and the other is the method.

Jimmy:

right.

ben:

It is part of the human psyche to want to improve things and want to make things work a little bit better. And I think a great way of engendering that habit in any team is to,, offer some basic knowledge and skills in, in running experiments

James:

yeah. Sorry Ben. Before we get into that, I think you make a really valid point, but there is a mindset change that most managers have to make here. We used to work for a guy and he used to talk. He used to say, well, you are management bees and there were worker bees you shouldn't be mixing the two up. reality is you want the worker bees to be developing their own work and experimenting with their own work'cause they understand it. I think there's two bits for it. Me, for me, one is coming back to the point about the toaster. Well these, these guys, they understand how it works. So those are the guys who really. Can improve it because they're the only ones who understand it. But then the other point, which I think you just made, which is really important and I hadn't twigged before, is this whole point about making it more their work, more variable, giving more variety, and therefore them getting more engaged.

ben:

Yeah,

James:

you've got a double whammy if you do this.

ben:

yeah, totally. And you know, just to really nail it. The manager who still believes that managers are there to make decisions and workers are there to head down and, and do the work. You know, so this is, so this is the exploit mindset as opposed to the explore mindset. We are living in a world that is so uncertain, so turbulent, and so volatile. I don't believe that any organization in any sector can afford to turn off the, the thinking potential, the innovative, the creative potential of their people, and whip them into being 110% productive heads down every day.'cause your head's down heading over a cliff.

Jimmy:

So just help me understand though,'cause. You know, to be perfectly honest, you guys are far more scientific than I'm ever gonna be. But I was a middle manager working in, an operation somewhere I, I wouldn't necessarily have been thinking about experimentation. It, it just wouldn't have occurred to me. So I think to your point, James, there's a bit of a mindset shift that goes from my job is to do stuff. So how do you get across to people, the power of experimentation? How do you give people the freedom to explore stuff?

James:

Yeah, and I think maybe experimentation is almost a little bit too grand. I mean, what

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

saying is try it and see if it works,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

but most importantly, if it doesn't work, well that's all right. We'll back it out and we'll try something else. And that's all. Experimentation is. I mean, I dunno. Ben, you pile in. Tell me what do you think?

ben:

Well, yeah. It's a spectrum as are many things, in life. And there'll be some people who get very pedantic and academic about design of experiments. It's a whole genre of continual improvement and there'll be other people who say, yeah, it's just try stuff out. Make sure that if it doesn't work, you can reverse it back. Again. Make sure that you're gonna see the results one way or the other within a couple of weeks. Make sure you've got a fair method of measurement, and as long as those criteria are met, then you know, fill your boots. Guys, I think one tactic that I've seen work really, really well is to, most teams will have a performance. Measurement by the, which I don't mean a personal development reviews appraisals or anything else, but, but by what method do teams understand whether they've had a good day, a good week, a good month, a good quarter, a good year? So this is the realm of KPIs, and it's an oversimplification, but it can be really useful. So those KPIs be. Designed, and a lot of this is unconscious by the way. So those KPIs can be designed for the purposes of evaluation or judgment. So you did well this week, pat on the back. You did badly this week kick out the ass. Or they can be used for improvement.

Jimmy:

I think everyone wants to be, or most people wanna be on a winning team. wanna feel that you're being successful. You wanna feel that you're making progress. You wanna feel that you're improving things and. As you say, Ben, the use of measures to show that can help you. A, to your point C, how you can improve, but also it can help you feel that you're making progress in life'cause that's what you want.

James:

Then this comes back to a point you made earlier on actually, when you were talking about the Wellbeing training. Right, because the problem, the inference there is that you are the problem.

ben:

Yes.

James:

Actually when you can talk about a measure it be clear that the you are not the problem, it's the system that's the problem. It's how are we going to fix the system? Then you take all the defensiveness away from it and you get a whole lot more progress. So yeah,

Jimmy:

So.

James:

like, it's like magic. It's amazing. It is like magic.

Jimmy:

So we've talked about, a number of the things that you can do regardless of how your system's set up and how those on higher acting. We talked about a number of things that. things that anyone can do in terms of protecting people skills, development, using measures, experimentation. Anything else, Ben, that you would say that regardless of the system that you're working in, that managers can do?

ben:

Yeah, yeah, definitely. So dead, dead simple. So something that we've learned and, and done a little bit of research around over the, over the years is is this idea that there's a really real, a subtle, yet powerful nuance in the questions that managers ask. So it's an oversimplification, but the beauty of it is it's dead easy to get your head round. The oversimplification is questions that managers ask, either fall into one of two buckets and one bucket. We label maintenance questions, and the other bucket we label development questions. So some examples of maintenance questions. Jamie, are you gonna hit your sales target this month? James, is your project on track? Are you gonna hit your milestone on Thursday? So those refer to short term, very often numeric, very often financial measures. And the implied message there is keep your head down. Out the door. Don't worry about these opportunities to improve, make things better, find new clients that may be passing you by the other bucket of questions. The developmental questions. They might be. Jimmy, we had a really, really good client meeting with x, y, z last Thursday, didn't we? I, I'd love it if you and I could have a coffee next week and just talk about. Ideas are so what opportunities might be to collaborate with them. So notice that is future focused, long term focused, and I'm inviting you to think outside the constraints of your, turn the handle and get the work out the door delivery. And to think about what ideas you notice, because as James has said, it's the people at the front end who are aware of the improvement opportunities very often, what ideas that you have. We could actually achieve a step change in performance by, forming an alliance with a, with a supplier or even a competitor who knows. So it's not to say that the former is bad and the latter are good. It's not as black and white as that. As many things in life are not, we do need a certain amount of maintenance questions. It would be a dereliction of duty as a manager to be totally la Well, I dunno whether they're gonna make their numbers or not this month. I don't, I don't think we're advocating for that at all, but the world that we are living, the busyness of the hamster wheel. Very, very often, managers fall into the trap of asking almost exclusively maintenance questions of their people and denying themselves the wonderful opportunity of harnessing much more of the potential collective brilliance of their team by dripping in a few developmental questions, which can lead to experimentation.

Jimmy:

And just to, plug, we did an episode early in the year, in season two on the power of questions with Graham Rainbird, and he had a, a lovely quote around questions, which is, questions create the world that we live in. So to your point, depending on the context and the situation, the types of questions that you use will shape, how people think and the actions they take and the way they behave. And that's something that we can all do every day. We can think about the questions. So, there's no, there's no big, permission that you need to ask for, to think about your questions.

ben:

Yeah, absolutely. And, there's another just opportunity here to anchor back to our summary. If a manager is aware that every single interaction that she or he has with their people is an opportunity to nurture or erode the health, the performance of the, of the individual

James:

Let me see if I was paying attention to Ben. So I'm gonna try and summarize our conversation. You tell me if I've missed anything. So the question is, how do you make work a source of vitality and you have come back with us, I think three or four things. So the first thing is, as a manager. Make sure that your staff have got the resources and skills to do their job, because if they haven't, well what do that stands? second thing is protect'em from some of the nonsense. So management school of letting the shit slide downwards. That's probably best avoided if you could get away with it.

Jimmy:

Be an umbrella.

James:

Be an umbrella. The third thing though, really is give your chat staff the chance to do development work. Because if you do that, well, two things. They're the guys who understand it, but secondly, they will the variety will make a massive difference to the work they're doing. And if you want them to do that, really it is about experimentation, thinking about measures rather than targets. And then the type of questions that you ask them. So are they development questions or are they maintenance questions? that, was I paying attention? Was there anything I missed?

ben:

I think that's a very good summary. Have we got time just for a, a cherry on top?

James:

Oh yeah, please.

ben:

Yeah. So, so I think it was Jimmy that that sort of inferred that in organizational life. You know, mistakes are something to be buried and, and failure something to be avoided. And, and, you know, just the idea of measuring performance can put The fear of God up people. Amy Edmondson's, more recent work, the sort of stuff that's followed on after her psychological safety stuff and, and the book that I think called the right kind of role. We can get that right if incorrect, get it in the show notes, but, but she makes a really helpful distinction I think between mistakes. So mistakes are when we happen, when we're in no known territory and we just slip up. We miss out a step, or we put the wrong ingredient in or whatever. And failures are things that happen when we are exploring, when we're running experiments, when we're seeing, trying stuff out. And as managers being really, really clear on which is which, and adopting a response that's consistent with whichever one, it's can give people the safety and the security to not be fearful. Anymore because that distinction can be really, really helpful. Certainly if you want to embark on your team becoming increasingly comfortable running their own experiments, then one of the most. And almost symbolic things that leader can do is to celebrate the good failures that have happened in the, in the experiments that have gone on. Because that's a demonstration of, well, that's the purpose of exploration is learning, and we've learned something and so therefore we should celebrate it.

Jimmy:

That's very, very true, Ben. But I do, that's another example of one where you need to shift your mindset because just the word failure and the word mistake, they're both things I don't wanna, do what I mean? Where, and, and what you're saying is, are actually, if done in the right way are are positive things.

James:

Jimmy.

Jimmy:

Learnings, but that's not, that's not how we have it. Back to your thing point earlier, that's not how we have it drummed into us the whole of our lives. Who wants to, I wanna do more failures today. So it does need a shift from actually in that learning development improvement. You have to see failures as an opportunity.

ben:

Yeah, totally. And, and so often, very sadly, done so badly. I've worked with a number of organizations who. Project reviews or lessons learned workshops that were just an absolute witch hunt and descended into, chaos and, we need to be really, really careful and sensitive to people's preconditioning about this stuff. Because we do risk the potential of really, really unearthing a whole load of stuff, which isn't gonna be helpful to anybody. It's not that it's actually that difficult, but it needs to be done really carefully and intentionally. Otherwise that, with the best of intentions, we could make matters worse, I guess.

James:

So, which he's not a source of vitality, then

ben:

Probably not.

Jimmy:

Definitely not. And Ben, that's a fantastic conversation. We start off the. Conversation. It's almost like a human need or a right to feel vitality out of our work. And then you explore all the reasons why it's not, and the system and the bosses and the ever-changing world. And it becomes a bit sort of, well, what can I do about it? You've done a, a fantastic job of breaking down. So a number of things that we can all do. All of the time. And I think it's a really nice, follow up and some different perspectives to add to the e episode that we did a few weeks ago on, on thriving. But I really love your, quote, which was every interactions and opportunity to nurture not erode. And I think that's a really good mantra to think about the interactions you're having in organizations,

James:

So. I think we've got to that point. So that is how to make your workplace a more vital environment. Let me put it like that. If you've enjoyed what you've heard today I'll be really grateful if you would like the show, subscribe to the show, share the show, do all of those things'cause they make a really big difference. And then if you didn't like it, keep your mouth shut and don't tell anyone about it would be ever so grateful.

Jimmy:

Or in the spirit of learning, you could send us an email and let us know how we can improve.

James:

Our learning opportunities are

Jimmy:

Exactly. Not our failures, our learning opportunities.

ben:

Very good.

James:

Super. you very much for joining us, Ben. I enjoyed that conversation.

Jimmy:

Thanks, Ben.

ben:

I loved it. Thanks for having me, guys.

Jimmy:

Nice one. Thanks everyone.

James:

Now

Speaker:

As well as recording this podcast, we help individuals, teams, and entire organizations achieve outstanding results.

Speaker 2:

If you'd like to find out more about how we can help you, please get in touch email, either jimmy@ajodowell.com or James at ajo dunwell com.

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James Lawther

Co-host
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Jimmy Barber

Co-host
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Ben Simpson

Guest