A Job Done Well - Making Work Better

Do You Need (or Want) Process Improvement?

• Jimmy Barber • Season 3 • Episode 10

Share episode

In the latest episode of "A Job Done Well," James Lawther and Jimmy Barber confront a polarising topic: Process Improvement. They tackle the central debate—is it essential for organisational health, or simply bureaucratic overhead?

1.  The Core Conflict: Necessity vs. Bureaucracy

Jimmy admits to a strong aversion to "process," associating it with endless documentation. James argues the opposite: that effective processes are the indispensable structures supporting successful businesses. The hosts explore the common resistance to process and why, despite its reputation, it remains fundamental to achieving results.

2.  Actions for Better Processes

The episode provides eight practical rules for teams aiming to improve how they work, focusing on impact, observation, and customer value. Key points include:

  • Design with Purpose: Define what the customer wants before designing the process.
  • Observe Reality: Go beyond documentation; understand what is really happening.
  • Focus on Impact: Use data to prioritise the problems that matter most.
  • Limit Mapping: Map only for understanding and improvement, you don’t have to document everything.
  • Cross-Silo View: Recognise that processes interact across the organisation.
  • Make it Easy: Design processes to make the desired action easy to perform.
  • Prioritise Value: Focus on speed and quality first; cost savings will follow.
  • Remember the People: Processes must serve the people who execute them, not the other way around.

3.  Why Listen?

Whether you are sceptical or a proponent, this episode offers a clear perspective on transforming performance. Listen to challenge your assumptions and get actionable strategies for creating better workflows for your team and customers.

Tune in to the full episode now. For further discussion, reach out to the hosts at Jimmy@jobdonewell.com or James@jobdonewell.com.

Got a question - get in touch. Click here.

Speaker 6:

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

Jimmy:

Sorry.

James:

How are you?

Jimmy:

Hi, James. I'm well, how are you doing?

James:

I'm doing very well. Thank you very much. Why are you sitting there with like, yeah, we, are we in the theater or something like that? You look like Prince of Darkness,

Jimmy:

It is like mastermind, isn't it?

James:

or not quite, no. Similar. Similar, yeah.

Jimmy:

You're gonna test me out on the subject of the day

James:

subject? Yeah.

Jimmy:

that, and it's hiding a sunset that just will blind you.

James:

is that what the

Jimmy:

It makes it look like I've got some sort of halo, which is clearly inappropriate. So hence the black background.

James:

very good. What are we talking about today though?

Jimmy:

So today we are going to tussle literally on the subject of all things process.

James:

It is the most exciting subject in the world.

Jimmy:

And that's why we're going to be arguing because when you mention the word process, it brings me out in a rash. Other dishwater, eye rolls, groans, you name it. We all hate everything to do with process.

James:

think it's.

Jimmy:

Sorry. The, the 1% of the population are process technicians or analysts or whatever. But most people groan and roll their eyes. But we really do need it'cause it underpins a lot of what we do as you are going to help educate us. No doubt.

James:

gonna preach, mate. That's what I'm gonna do.

Jimmy:

That's not gonna get people wanting to listen to this podcast, James, just say it. But we are going to help you understand why process is just like medicine. You have to take it. You know it's good for you, but you actually get some value out of it. So before we came to that argument about the wise and where falls of process, what what have you been up to recently?

James:

Well if you listen to last week's episode, you will know that I was talking about going to a funeral of one of my old bosses.

Jimmy:

Hmm.

James:

So I have

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

to the funeral,

Jimmy:

Right.

James:

which yeah, was, it was, you know, interesting. You go to a funeral, you you count thinking this would been really funny if the dead person had been there.'cause you see all these people you haven't seen for years. So on the one hand it's a bit sad, but on the other hand you see lots of people. So it's, yeah, it was what it was. But I went thinking, I woke up in the morning. I thought, I must not be late. I must not be late. not be late.

Jimmy:

You were late, weren't you?

James:

to get outta the house. I must, but

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

late. I put, there were two churches in this town where this funeral was. One is called St. Mark's and the other one is called St. Michael's.

Jimmy:

All close.

James:

this is going? So I actually drove past the church. I should have been at. In an effort to get there on time. And then I had to walked up to the church. It was all locked up, so I had to backtrack and I walked into the funeral late. But on a positive note, my old boss would've just looked at me and laughed and said, you're late again, but there you go. So that's what I had beat up to.

Jimmy:

So even when you worked for him back in your twenties or whatever it is, you were late then.

James:

Oh yeah. No doubt.

Jimmy:

It is that bad joke, isn't it? You'll be late for your own funeral. You are late for everyone else's. You'll be late for your own.

James:

yeah, but do not be late, James. Please don't be like, oh. So there you go. That's what I've been up to. How about you

Jimmy:

Well, I had a little bit of a blast in the past. At lunchtime today, James, which you'll remember, I went into town, they've just opened a branch of tossed

James:

all?

Jimmy:

in the center of Nottingham. It's the first branch of Tossed outside of London. God knows why they've decided to come to the center of Nottingham. But'cause they're all around the city of London and we used to, we used to regularly have our lunch there.

James:

it's a Unfortunate name.

Jimmy:

it's, it's not, I don't think it's the best name, but it comes from the fact that they do salads tos

James:

Sorry. Toss the salads.

Jimmy:

across Thes. But it was a really nice blast in the past. I mean, I'm not being funny, James. Pure London prices you can build your own stuff. So built me own salad, built me own wraps, all that sort of stuff. It was 12 quid for a wrap.

James:

12 pounds.

Jimmy:

Yes. London prices, baby.

James:

Yeah. It's not gonna last long in Nottingham, is it?

Jimmy:

I fear not. So yeah, enjoy it while it lasts. Save up for a visit.

James:

I should have get a mortgage. Go on. Then let's get into the exciting subject and say process. wrong with it and what's your problem?

Jimmy:

So the problem I have is, is whenever you get into anything, process management, process improvement, I mean, say the words, documenting processes. I just think it becomes incredibly bureaucratic. It generally gets into huge amounts of detail, and I rarely see these projects that people do adding a lot of value. So when I go into an organization and the first thing they say to me is, we're in the middle of documenting our processes. Like, good luck with that. Call me when you're done. All the, all throughout my career, I've always found that it just SATs life outta me, James.

James:

You don't like documenting your processes.

Jimmy:

No,

James:

You

Jimmy:

I don't,

James:

good process map.

Jimmy:

no. I don't, I'm not sure they add value. I, I guess the other thing is I think it takes a lot of time, but also I think the approaches Are very rigid and it's designed by people who love detail and love a process map, but aren't necessarily focused on getting the best outcomes. Now, I know I'm taking a slightly extreme position here, James, so that you can obviously point out the error of my ways, but because I have experienced people who are great at this, and obviously, I hate to say this to your face virtually. This wouldn't apply to how you go about doing things with process, which is why I think you can help both practitioners and recipients think differently about this subject.

James:

Ah, very

Jimmy:

So go on. How, how would you help us think differently? What's your perspective on all things process?

James:

So let's just start. I think the first thing is what is, what do you mean by process, right? So

Jimmy:

Yep.

James:

if we are talking about sitting in a room with a computer screen up and people drawing boxes on a computer screen so they can file it away, I am absolutely with you. Total waste of time. Your organization is just a mass of processes and systems, and It's the way in which things get done.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Where I start off is you processes just about the way in which you get stuff done. And so if you're running a big organization, you don't have any flipping choice but to worry about your processes.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

So we were talking earlier on about a an organization that were just too slow and can't get a damn thing done. Well, it's just'cause their processes are rubbish.

Jimmy:

Good.

James:

Now, if things aren't working and you think the, solution is to draw some process maps, then you're probably sadly mistaken. But I honestly think that processes and systems are fascinating. They are how organizations work is the way in which stuff gets done. It's, it's like, it's the plumbing of your organization mean All you've got is you've got processes, stroke systems, and people. That is what your organization is.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

it's the biggest lever you can pull. So I think it's. Fascinating stuff and fundamentally important, but I do agree with you. Most of the time it's just done really, really badly. And don't, people don't think in terms of this is a process.

Jimmy:

No, but if you ask a slightly different question, if you've got a process for argument's sake handling complaints. If you ask the question of how do we handle complaints around here? So what, what is it you do? How do you do your work? You know, those sorts of things I do think kind of enlighten you because you discover what's really happening, not how do you think you should do your work? What, what's the steps you actually follow? How do you go about handing a complaint? When you understand what people are actually doing, then I think you can look to, is that the right answer? Is that the best way of handling a complaint? And how do I improve how I handle a, a complaint? I think that way of thinking, I can see the value in. In that, because that allows you, I think, to understand and improve, but also when you get new people starting, you can explain to them how things are done around here.

James:

Yeah, but I mean, you take that one, and that's quite an interesting one. You know, your process for handling complaints.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

it's interesting'cause I would argue that's not really

Jimmy:

I,

James:

that's a task. You handle a complaint. A better

Jimmy:

yep.

James:

is, where do the bloody complaint come from to start off with? So it is the way in which these things link together. There's that whole there's that song isn't the wrong one. Let me get this right. Yeah, hang on. You'll like this. The foot bone is connected to the leg bone. The leg bone's connected to the knee bone. The knee bone's connected to the thigh burner, right. So clearly I'm never, I've stopped. Right? But the point is, if you look at processes as tasks, things in which you do, you know, well, okay, might optimize it a little bit, but that's not the game here. Because if you look at your organization, all of these things are joined together.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

the question is how do you stand back and look at the whole damn thing and does it work? So that's why I think it's fundamentally important. You've got no choice. You know, whether you like it or not, you are running processes. It doesn't matter what management job you've got, you are running processes. You have a choice. You can do it well or you can do it badly, but you can't not manage processes. So you know, what are you gonna do? Take some pride in. It'll be my take.

Jimmy:

It comes back to one of your favorite sayings, which is you've got two jobs. One is to do the job, one is to improve the job. A complaints example. You, you are going. Hand have complaints. And so one of your jobs is to, when you have a complaint, here's how you deal with it. But then the other part of your job is how do you handle it as efficiently as possible? But then your bit, which is if you join everything together, it's how do you stop the complaint in the first one?

James:

Absolutely.

Jimmy:

But you can't do those things if you don't have some understanding of how things are done round here.

James:

Right, and they almost, if you said, well, this isn't a process session, this is how things are done around tier session. It is just a slightly different way of looking at it.

Jimmy:

That's an interesting point because I think there is an amount of psychology behind this. So I do know people who. Absolutely have a, almost a physical reaction when you say something about processes. I remember being at a conference once in one organization and we were talking about the growth challenges the organization had, and one person, quite senior, very smart, stood up and said, I don't understand how you think we're going to grow and we're going to double the size of our business. When you talk to us about process.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

Okay, hang on a minute. You think that the process is an obstacle, whereas actually if you really thought about it and you really understood it, you'd understand that the way of doubling your business will lie somewhere in that the processes you have as an organization, but it's, that is that psychological thing. Part of the issue that people have is that it feels like a, a loss of. Autonomy and a loss of control. And, people don't like that. You know, people prefer to just be allowed to get on with things. They prefer speed, autonomy and, and I think that might be one of the cruxes of the issues is. It's the way things are done. So automatic, you, you associate process, process improvement, all this process management, process, documentation, all that sort of stuff with the wrong things.

James:

Yeah, and a lot of it, when people talk about process, you instantly get into process control. I, you must do this, you must not do that,

Jimmy:

I,

James:

get into cost savings, both of which are missing the point altogether.

Jimmy:

yeah.

James:

But we'll come on into that.

Jimmy:

The other thing just to to mention, I remember at one point when I was in one organization and they decided they were going to switch from functional ownership to process ownership, and all of a sudden one of my peers in a completely different part of the organization was the Level Zero process owner, and I was the level one process owner. All of a sudden it was like, anyway, I haven't worked for him, but he's trying to get involved He's has nothing to do with me. And that, that, that goes to that psychological need for autonomy and, feeling valued.

James:

There's a, oh, there's a, oh, lovely phrase, right? Processes make good servants, but poor masters. So I think a lot of our problem is people say things like, oh, we need to add a bit more process. Or we need to save some money. What's your process? Or, but it's just, it's missing the point altogether. Right. So processes deliver things to customers. Yeah. Customers pay you money. If your process is working better, they will pay you money. So your point about the sales guy who thought the process was a bad thing, well actually if you can get your organizations to want more effectively and give their customers what they want and do it faster and do it cheaper, and those two things invariably go hand in hand, and to better quality. The customers will love you for it, and you'll be able to deliver the service for cheaper, and so it becomes a lot easier if

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

job to deliver that growth.

Jimmy:

But the flip side of that almost is that there's no customer who will want to pay you for your processes. So they don't value your processes at all. What they value is the service it provides to them or the product. It provides the outcome that it provides. And so if your processes enable you to deliver a superior product, cheaper, whatever stuff, that's what people are buying.

James:

Yes, absolutely. And the process, this, it should be, it's just, it should be in the background. It's the way in which the organization delivers. People only talk about processes when the bloody thing's not working properly.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

if I give you an example, two examples today, right? So I was using Gemini today, my new friend Gemini right now. It's beautiful, right? Gemini. All it is,

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

it's good process. And

Jimmy:

yeah,

James:

in the broadest sense, right? It is very easy to use. It gives you what you want,

Jimmy:

yeah.

James:

you it quickly,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

And if your processes are working, and your business systems are working, your infrastructure, however you want to look at it, the way in which stuff gets done, then will keep coming back from all, as you can see by the current AI bubble. On the other hand, there's also an awful lot of bad process. So for example, I also, I won't name names, but I do some work for a a. Institute of Higher Education,

Jimmy:

yep.

James:

obviously'cause I do that and they've got a load of cbts computer-based training that they need me to do every now and again. So I have my inbox this morning and I have got, I kid you not 23 emails from them telling me that this CBT hasn't been done Right. Well, thanks. Right. Well this is somebody who has put in a process to tell people. Yeah, and I'll sh I can see where it's going. You know, the next minute I'm gonna get some calls asking why the hell I haven't done them. The reason why I haven't done them is nobody told me I had to do them. They didn't make it easy for me,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

that's just about control and smacking people around the heads. It's also a process. But you can have good processes and you can have bad process and a really good process. You won't notice it's there at all. That's is how slick it should be. actually, I would argue that, you know, all of the time I'll get a bit deep, but all of economic advancement really comes from good process design, infrastructure and all of those good things. But it's the way in which things get done and making it slicker. that is what it's all about for me.

Jimmy:

Just, slight angle. James. One of the things that I find a challenge within this is, people, so we're talking about the processes, but if you think about the people, and I think about this in two groups, there is the people who are, you know, owning, controlling the processes and the people who might be the technicians and help redesign and stuff like that. I see a series of. Actions and behaviors in this group that IE the technicians that aren't particularly helpful to getting a better outcome for them or anyone else. And equally I see a series of behaviors in the people who are owners, users, the business as it's often called, who equally are. At times unhelpful.

James:

Always a bit worried about anybody who says the solution is we need more process. It's a bit like saying the solution is we need more ai.

Jimmy:

yeah.

James:

Anybody who's pushing out process, it's, it's missing the point. You can't push. It's there, it's inherent in what you do. It's just about making the things work better.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

get into a really interesting question about process improvements, right? So when is a process improvement? A process improvement? And there were a couple of articles I read recently about Starbucks

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

did two processing improvements and I used the word a little bit loosely. first one is they invested in a load of these automatic coffee machines. You know, they grind the coffee and they stuff the coffee beans in the whatever it is, and then it automatically pause you a cup of coffee and all the barista has to do press a button now. You could argue quite strongly that is a process improvement because it makes everything cheaper.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

But of course the customers hated it.'cause they're thinking, what if I just wanted somebody to press a button? I go and press the button myself. Right. So, you know, I think the Starbucks CEO went out and said, you know, we've gone too far with our process improvements. But the point is customers hated it. So if the customer doesn't like it, it's not a process improvement. It's just something you did to make, cheaper. So there was one thing they did, the other thing they did was they invested in some scheduling software. So now what you've got is you've got, I know, 10 people standing at the queue in Starbucks, and what you do is you put the orders in and it tells you which order to make first. And because it tells the, your barrister which order to make first, you can minimize the downtime, whatever the hell they have to do, clean the milk check or whatever it might be. But by doing that, they managed to reduce the cues. But of course the customers love that because it's an improvement from a customer perspective because it mean they got their coffee quicker. But it's still not all the theater and drama that you get when you want, when you go to a coffee house. So I think for me, it really is about, well, if we are saying this is a process improvement, who is it a process improvement for? And if you're just running around trying to make things cheaper. It's not a process improvement. You're kidding yourself. Yeah. So I think that's one of the reasons why it gets a bad neck. The other thing that I think we do add

Jimmy:

Sorry, just, just to add one small nuance to that, I prefer my barristers to represent me in court rather than make me a coffee.

James:

Sorry. I do apologize.

Jimmy:

Oh,

James:

loves the smart

Jimmy:

I had to, I had to wait for that one. I had to wait a while. You were not gonna pause.

James:

All right. Very good.

Speaker:

Our podcast is all about helping people, teams, and organizations perform better and enjoy work more. I get as far as to say that we believe that everyone and every team has the potential to transform their performance by optimizing what they currently do. So if you'd like to discuss how we can help you transform your performance, then get in touch or maybe check out our website. We also do speaking events, mentoring advice, work as well.

Jimmy:

So. Take a step back, James. What are the top three bits of advice you'd give for people around managing their process?

James:

Well, the first thing, here we go, broken record.

Jimmy:

Yeah,

James:

What is your

Jimmy:

I,

James:

What are you doing for your customer, right? Because you should design everything you know that you've got to deliver to your customer.

Jimmy:

yes.

James:

If it's not designed to deliver to your customer,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

won't, it won't be an improvement. So there's the first thing, the second thing, record. Again, go and have a flipping look

Jimmy:

Right.

James:

right. Go and be a customer. Go and sit in the operation. Go and listen.'cause you really can't improve things when you're standing there in head office. Making decisions. I mean, this is what frustrates me about, oh, government. You get West Street pontificating about what you should do with the NHS. I wonder if the man's ever been in a hospital, let alone gone into a ward, but

Jimmy:

Well, I think,

James:

a look.

Jimmy:

yeah, I think the other thing just to, to pick up on that, I think it's not just go and have a look. You've got to make sure that you're really understand what actually happens versus. What you think happens or what should happen, because I reckon probably where stringing has visited many hospitals, but I also reckon that when he visits them, what he sees is relatively stage managed. Yeah.

James:

stage managed. Yeah. Red carpet treatment like you've never seen in your

Jimmy:

Exactly. So if you really wanna understand, you have to go in and see it warts and all, and understand what actually people are doing. And if you can understand that, then you can start to improve that. But that's, that's starting with kind of purpose and reality, not starting with documentation and control.

James:

absolutely. And then the next thing I would do is I'd look at the data and, you know, what is my big problem here? What is the thing I need to fix? a lot of process improvement is just focused on the wrong thing. So we were talking earlier about complaints. Well, you know, what is the biggest source of complaints? what am I doing about that? Then we come into the question of mapping. Well, can you process mapping? Yes, it has a place, but to your point, it's all about mapping for knowledge. So it things out to find out how they work and why they work the way they do. Because invariably, particularly in service organizations where you can't see. The very act of mapping things out will tell you what's going on,

Jimmy:

yeah.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

just, just to wind back a second, James, you're getting creative with what's your top three bits of advice now, but

James:

five, Emma.

Jimmy:

you're, you're on four, but on your first three, just a, I think a really good point for the technicians. Who might get involved in this sort of work? You talked about what you're here for. Go and see the work yourself and understand where your biggest problems are. If you are talking to me about those sorts of things, I'm interested. You would have that conversation without mentioning the P word.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

If you come to me and start talking to me about my processes I'm off. We talked about the psychology of it. And I think that's one of the big differences for me is yes, your thought process is really good and you know, if you wanna carry on beyond four, knock yourself out.

James:

mail, I've got list, I've got list.

Jimmy:

But the point being, you are talking about stuff that's important to others, not just. Process for process's sake.

James:

Yeah,

Jimmy:

what's number five?

James:

number five is a. we run our businesses in silos

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

and so a lot of process improvements look at the silo, but because they look at the silo, they don't actually improve the process'cause the process delivers to a customer.

Jimmy:

Yeah, that makes sense.

James:

and then I suppose my, well two more. I've got two more. Think about processes in terms of making it easy for people

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

controlling things.

Jimmy:

And when you say make it easy for people, do you mean the users or the customers?

James:

both.'cause if

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

to do the right thing,

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

it easy for them. So the example I always give is a three pin plug. Right. So every day I'm pulling in out a three pin plug and putting it back. Yeah. And it's a piece of cake. And I'm actually playing with 240 volts and speaking as a man who wants short circuited something, it can kill you. But it's been made so easy and so robust, you don't do it. Most process improvement things, though they'd have, you know, when you've got to put this wire here and you've got to put that wire there, and when you've put those wires there, then you have to get somebody to come and sign it off. And the person who's signing it off has got to be a qualified electrician, and only when they've signed it off can you go outside and switch the power back on. And that's not, you know, that's process and control. But really the trick is to think about, well, how am I gonna make this so simple? People can't fuck it up.

Jimmy:

Well, another, another example is, lots of organizations want to collect data about, you know, I know Reason for Calling as an example, and they have a dropdown menu for reason for calling. And I guarantee a hundred percent the number one reason for calling will be whatever's first on the list.

James:

Oh, absolutely. I I worked for a insurance company and they were doing some analysis of. Pet insurance claims. Where they insured horses. And the

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

you know, what was the biggest cause of death for horses? they found out the biggest cause of death for horses were drowning. Well, exactly right. The big things you've gotta be going some to drown a horse. I'm not even sure how I would even start thinking about drowning a horse. Yeah. But of course, drowning was just the first thing at the top of the list. Yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy:

I rest of my case and the final one of the seven golden rules.

James:

I think you just have to think about speed and service quality rather than cost, right? So you've got three outcomes from a process, right? What was it any good? How long did it take and how much did it cost me? If you think about improving your processes from a speed and a quality perspective, of course if you do that, if it's faster and it's good quality and it doesn't cost more to deliver that, then it will actually cost less because by definition, you've got fewer churches, you've got fewer complaints. There's more or less people getting involved, and your cost will drop automatically. always think about. How do I design this thing to be faster? And how do I design this thing to be better quality? As opposed to what most people think about, which is cost, cost, cost, cost, cost. And of course it's easy to do that, but it makes it slower and the quality invariably goes worse'cause people start complaining. And then of course your cost spiral away from you. So that was at seven for three.

Jimmy:

Seven

James:

quite

Jimmy:

it. It was seven.

Speaker 2:

We hope you're enjoying

Speaker 3:

and getting value from listening to our podcast. If you are, please can you share it online on social media with friends and colleagues.

Speaker 2:

We appreciate five star reviews and we really do, but any feedback on how we can improve or subject that you'd like us to cover, just drop us a line and get in touch.

Speaker 4:

This all helps us bring the best quality show to you to ensure that you can improve your performance enjoyment at work.

Jimmy:

But I think that the good thing about those. Seven items, James is they are equally applicable, whether you are the users, the owners of the process, the functional areas, or if you are the technicians or you are the analysts. Both those groups need to, the, the, essentially, the user group needs to be slightly more open-minded and not just reject process but there are a way of answer asking these questions that will help you, that will add value to your organization, your customers, your people, and the technicians need to just be a bit more thoughtful about how they ask the right questions the ones that people are bothered about.

James:

Yeah. Yeah.

Jimmy:

So it is about how you engage people.

James:

And coming back to your your sales guy. You know, the question is, well, if you can't sell enough, why is that then? Right.

Jimmy:

and, and I guarantee you, if you had the right conversation with my sales guy, you could help him unlock how he's gonna double his business. But if you go in and talk to him and say,

James:

We're gonna map

Jimmy:

I can, you're gone.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

But he's bothered about doubling the size of his business. Show him how process helps him do that. He's interested.

James:

Yeah. I've just thought of an eighth. Can I throw an eighth thing?

Jimmy:

If it's good, how good is it?

James:

I dunno, we maybe sort of touched on it, but you have to bear in mind your business, is a combination of systems, processes, you know, sort of the hard stuff. But it's also got people in it.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

have to design for people. you design something and the people must just do it, then they won't,

Jimmy:

Which is, which I guess is back to my point about engaging the people. You know, whether it's drop down lists or what really happens?'cause people will find the easiest way for them to do a process. And they'll find some good stuff. And if you can harness all that good stuff. Let's find the best way of doing this, handling a complaint. Let's find the best way of doing it, and then we'll all do it the best way. And then when we find a better way of doing it, we'll all share that. But that requires humans to behave in a certain way.

James:

And it's a question of best for who.

Jimmy:

Yeah.

James:

Yeah.

Jimmy:

Yeah, because if you don't engage me, I will find the best way for me.

James:

Yes.

Jimmy:

not be the best way for the customer.

James:

Yeah. So there you go. I've convinced you.

Jimmy:

Well, I'm still gonna break out in hires when you start talking about processes, James, but you've always had a great way of doing this, and I think it's really good to share. That because it's fundamental to how we do things and how we deliver performance and enjoyment of what we do. So without process, you're not gonna be able to do that, which is what this podcast is all about. Okay, so let's just summarize what are our golden rules for doing process? So it adds value and doesn't cause rashes.

James:

All right, so the first thing is about purpose. What is this thing here to do?

Jimmy:

I second was go and look at what's actually really happening.

James:

The third one is look at the data and pick off the big problems and faff about with the small ones, I.

Jimmy:

The next one was map processes. Only when it's helpful and only do it from the point of view of gaining knowledge,

James:

Yeah. Next I've got, don't think about the process in isolation. You know, the knee bone is connected to the leg bone and all of that. Look at the wider picture.

Jimmy:

they will never forget that after you sang that song.

James:

was quite tuneful. Beyonce is very worried,

Jimmy:

the next one was make it easy to do the right thing rather than trying just to control people so they don't do the wrong thing.

James:

Yeah. Then worry about speed and worry about service quality rather than cost.'cause if you've set those two things out, you'll make it cheaper anyway.

Jimmy:

And the next one, eighth and final one was, remember the people processes operate in service of people.

James:

I've got a ninth one.

Jimmy:

Of course you have,

James:

thought I'd throw it in.

Jimmy:

you're like, Colombo. There's always just.

James:

just one more thing. do you know it's only a process improvement if the customer thinks it's a improvement? So there you go. That was a

Jimmy:

Well

James:

episode. I think that's the most interesting one we've done.

Jimmy:

the most interested you've ever been, that's for sure.

James:

I think we should

Jimmy:

Alright,

James:

it on a high then. Should we?

Jimmy:

we shall we shall. Hopefully you've enjoyed that episode. If you wanna find out more about process, talk to James, not me.

James:

The super look forward to all a rush of calls. Cheers now, Tara.

Speaker 5:

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are outta control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised, just keeps failing to deliver, we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations, get in touch at Jimmy at@jobdonewell.com orJames@jobdonewell.com.

Head Shot

James Lawther

Co-host
Head Shot

Jimmy Barber

Co-host