Hybrid Working: How to Make It Work Without Losing Your Mind (or Your Team)

Welcome to A Job Done Well, the podcast for managers who want to improve their performance—and enjoy their jobs. Hosted by Jimmy Barber and James Lawther, this episode tackles hybrid working, a topic that’s causing headaches, heartburn, and heated debates in boardrooms and Slack channels everywhere.

The pandemic proved that remote work could work. But now, as companies scramble to bring people back into the office, many are doing so in the clumsiest way possible: mandating days without considering the why or the how. The result? Frustrated employees, plummeting morale, and—ironically—often worse performance.

In this episode, Jimmy and James break down what’s working, what’s not, and why. They explore Microsoft’s enlightened approach (trust, autonomy, and a focus on collaboration), Apple’s misfired mandate (which sparked open letters and internal rebellion), and Goldman Sachs’ old-school presenteeism (which drove talent straight into the arms of competitors). They also dive into the research: why autonomy matters more than location, how proximity accelerates learning, and why one-size-fits-all policies are about as effective as a chocolate teapot.

But this isn’t just a rant. Jimmy and James offer practical advice for managers—whether you’re designing the policy or stuck implementing someone else’s. Learn how to create an "office menu" (what to do in the office vs. remotely), lead by example, and keep your ways of working under review. Because the goal isn’t just to fill seats; it’s to boost performance, wellbeing, and—dare we say it—happiness at work.

So if you’re tired of corporate nonsense and want to make hybrid working actually work, tune in. And remember: treat your team like adults, not children.

Transcript

Speaker 6 0:03

Hello, I'm James. Hi, I'm Jimmy and welcome to a Job Done Well, the podcast that helps you improve your performance enjoyment at work.

James 0:15

Hello, how are you? Happy New Year.

Jimmy 0:18

James, how you doing?

James 0:19

I'm doing very well. Thank you very much. Ecstatic to be back after my Christmas break.

Jimmy 0:24

I know. This is 2026.

James 0:26

Yeah, 58 this year. There's a thought for you. Oh no, you're there already, aren't you? Right. What are we talking about today then?

Jimmy 0:34

So today, James, we are going to talk about hybrid working and it is a subject many leaders are talking about How do we get back into the office? But that often translates into just mandating a number of days, and that risks ne negatively alienating people and impacting performance. But we believe, that if you think it through and plan it well and really think more holistically rather than just the blunt instrument of days in the office, you can optimize wellbeing and performance. So listen on and you'll find out how to, but before that, James, what have you been up to?

James 1:11

Well, the highlight of my Christmas is my Dukes of Hazard impersonation. For some reason. For some reason.

Jimmy 1:21

But what have you been doing? Daisy Dukes please.

James 1:24

for some reason the car door of my car would not open. Which is okay if you're 23 and you're driving a Dodge Charger, but when you're 58 and it's a Volvo, it's not quite the same thing at all. So that was a, that was the highlight of my Christmas.

Jimmy 1:37

That reel that Mylene class is doing.

James 1:40

Have I seen that reel that Myline class is doing? I dunno what reel is and I doing Myline classes.

Jimmy 1:45

Okay, well look it up, James. But basically, I think that's what you should be trying to do when you get into your car. Look it up. You'll see.

James 1:55

Yeah. Well, hang on. Yeah, I'm not entirely sure I can do that.

Jimmy 2:00

I'm not entirely sure I'd want to see you trying to do that either.

James 2:03

Right. Then how about you? What have you been up to?

Jimmy 2:06

So happy New Year to all our viewers and listeners. It was a quite one for me, combination of illness and just wanting to have a rest at the end of the year. So yeah, I enjoyed it. Had some nice times, but happy to get back to, yeah, well, I, I say work podcasting. Are you, James? It's never like, it's never like work, is it?

James 2:30

much more fun. So go on. Then hybrid working then. So what do we mean by it and why is it important?

Jimmy 2:36

A lot of people, did a bit of working from home and then that just took an exponential leap when COVID forced us into it.

James 2:45

and actually I remember very well people before COVID saying, oh no, it will never work. You

Jimmy 2:49

Yeah.

James 2:50

do it. And then for two years we were all flipping doing and it worked perfectly well. So.

Jimmy 2:54

Exactly, but it did create a real trend where, everyone then carried on hybrid working afterwards and not really going back into the office.

James 3:04

Yeah.

Jimmy 3:05

And then recently in the last couple of years, we've seen a real move. Where employers have mandated people get back in the office, and that can be for lots of reasons. It can be'cause they think performance isn't good enough. They want more control over how things are working. They're left with a load of real estate. There's lots of reasons. But you've got this situation where lots of employees have now changed their lives as a result of that. They might have been working from home for five years and all of a sudden, that's all they've known for some people, And now you're telling them they've got to get back into the office. That has a massive impact on people's lives.

James 3:45

So there are stories like, well, on the one hand you get people who've moved from London to the Highlands for a better quality of life. Yeah. And all of a sudden they've gotta be back in the office in London. That's one thing. But then s there were plenty of people who have been recruited it was working from home, and now all of a sudden they're supposed to be in an office somewhere. So it's a bit of a problem for lots of

Jimmy 4:05

Yeah. And if you're in your, if you're in your early twenties, you've probably known, never known anything different, have you? This is how work's always been for you. So To go from that to get back in the office in any of those scenarios. Massive impact on people's lives. So talking, which James, what's your perspective on hybrid work and your experience of it?

James 4:25

Well, I mean, I did it for a very long time. So before COVID, I went for about eight years. I was bouncing about the countryside. I probably worked from home for, I dunno, a couple of days a week, and then I would be everywhere from on crikey. Sunland down to Gatwick. So I really was up and down the country and For me it worked very well and I enjoyed it. It was a little bit of the nature of the job I was doing though, because I didn't have a home office, so to speak, as in I didn't have a permanent office and I was

Jimmy 4:52

Yeah.

James 4:53

to travel and talk to people. Then actually being at home didn't really make a difference when I was talking to people,'cause I'd be talking to'em on the telephone anyway. So, For me, it was great. It does have its downside, I think. I mean, ultimately productivity does go down if you have too much homeworking,

Jimmy 5:12

Yeah.

James 5:12

I think it goes down for the reasons people say, there's a lot of well beat people so they have an average handle time, but in reality I think productivity goes down'cause you lose connection, you lose

Jimmy 5:23

Yeah.

James 5:23

you lose belonging. So there are a lot of soft. Issues associated, which I don't think about. But then the other hand, I suppose there's almost like this eng, oh, I like a good graph, other graph, an NHA graph, right? So if you imagine how predictive you are going up the way and how much hybrid or homeworking you do going along the way, I think if you've got too little homeworking, then that's you get people who get fed up in their room. Projective. But on the other side, if you've got too much home working, then you also get people who are just taking, get bored and don't like it. But actually I think there's probably just a sweet spot in the middle. You can have too much and too little of a thing. It's almost like the Goldilocks effect. Yeah, that's just right.

Jimmy 6:04

Yeah, and I think that's an interesting perspective because I guess I'd echo some of the things that you've said in my experience. Before COVID, I worked at home one day a week and I was quite clear I couldn't imagine doing more than one day a week, I liked having one day, really liked it more than that, not for me. And then, of course, COVID comes along and I'm doing like five days a week at home. So it opened up more possibilities to me. Think, hang on a minute, I didn't realize that you could do your jobs this way. But I have found that some things are better at home. So I find that more focused work when I'm, need to be away from distractions. That's, I'm much more productive when I'm working from home. But I do miss the social side and I think that we are losing out on a lot of things like. Relationships, development, learning and I mean stuff that happens outside of meetings. So yes, there's certain meetings that can work fine remotely, no problem at all. Other meetings are best done face-to-face, things like, problem solving, performance reviews, one-to-one certain things. But there's also a whole life outside of meetings I think we miss out on where you, you learn a lot from just being around people and you build a lot of relationships and you have a lot of fun and I think that's missing. So I agree with your point, too much. Leads to loneliness and isolation. Too little. You're spending half your life traveling around to, commuting

James 7:35

and I think you're right, I think it depends a lot where you are in your career as well. so when I was doing a lot of it, I was a. I was, senior middle manager. I was, I had a team. I knew what I was doing. I was known in the business, and that was okay

Jimmy 7:51

Yeah.

James 7:52

knew what I was, my daughter is doing it now. She's just started working. She's a graduate trainee. And I think it's just sucking the life out of her, bless her,

Jimmy 8:00

Yeah.

James 8:01

only working in an office two days a week. She doesn't know people, she doesn't know who to talk to. And yeah, much, much easier, particularly when you're starting out your career to work from an office.

Jimmy 8:10

It's very true, and I think that's part of the challenge, which lots of organizations are facing. The people who decide on the strategy and they mandate things are potentially not necessarily thinking about the workforce as a whole. They're thinking about their perspective on things and not, what do people need at other levels, in other ways of life in their organization?

James 8:35

Well, what about the employer perspective? Then? Just give me something on that. What's your take there?

Jimmy 8:40

So I think employers have, they have offices. They've, they've got a lot of real estate. They, I can't always have the control. They'd like a lot of people, we would be in this camp. We always work this way. So therefore this is what I did, so this is what you should do. And I think they, they take the attitude that, you've had a lot of freedom. It was good while it lasted, but now we've gotta get back into the office. I think also they look at when performance isn't so good. It's because they're, people are not in the office. This negative assumption that people are, just being lazy. I just don't think it's right, but I can understand some of those perspectives.

James 9:20

Yeah, but there is a little bit of it seen as particularly amongst people of a certain generation, shall we say, that's seen as the, to all productivity problems.

Jimmy 9:29

Yeah.

James 9:29

heard an MP he was banging on about and whatever department it was, and you're just saying, well, please tell me they're not all, they're not all still working from home. They should be back in the office. They'll get through their backlogs. Oh, well really it's not the case. So I think it just depends

Jimmy 9:44

I think you're right, James. There is a generational perspective that says, working from home bad. You've, we've heard all heard Alan Sugar banging on about it and people like that. And in the office is good. And I think the answer is, to your point, it depends on a lot of factors. So in a minute we'll talk about some of the research the good, the bad, and the downright ugly in terms of what companies have tried and failed at.

James 10:13

Okay then, so go on.

Jimmy 10:15

An example of an organization that has done this well is Microsoft.

James 10:20

Yeah. Okay.

Jimmy 10:22

So Microsoft. Now explicitly employ people on hybrid contracts by default. That's how they work.

James 10:31

What the contract is, you will be in the office some days and not others.

Jimmy 10:34

Yeah.

James 10:35

Yeah.

Jimmy 10:35

So it gives that a certain amount of freedom, but managers are given the discretion to design their team's ways of working. So whilst you're a hybrid worker your manager and your team will decide how that actually works in practice. But the office is seen as a collaboration learning space. It's not just a, productivity will be better if you're in the office. They've actually thought about what activities are best done in the office,

James 11:08

So it sounds quite enlightened really.

Jimmy 11:10

yeah, I mean, some of the reasons why it's probably worked well is that. Trust and autonomy of people is baked into that thinking rather than it's four days a week. They're trusting people to work out on the basis of what activities work best in terms of collaboration, learning. What does that mean for you and your team?

James 11:33

Yeah,

Jimmy 11:34

In doing this, they have invested in their manager's capabilities to make these decisions and to set their own strategy. So it's not just a blanket policy. And there's acknowledgement that, different roles require different working rhythms. So it's not everyone's four days a week, that's just a blanket, I think, to be honest, I think that's just damn lazy. So I think ultimately, my takeaway from Microsoft is, clarity and trust beats the consistency of the four day a week blunt instrument approach.

James 12:09

Yeah. Alright, so there's a good example. Go there, gimme another one.

Jimmy 12:14

So here's one that has not worked as well, but the intention was good. So Apple, apple actually mandated three days in the office. But they have similarly, a really strong belief in. The collaboration and the craftsmanship that their people have. So, they believe that getting in the office really helps leverage those things, But when they implemented it. They didn't really explain. They did the three days a week blanket communication. So they faced significant internal resistance and they have got an amazing culture as an organization. It's meant to be an incredible place to work, but when you have Apple employees writing open letters. And publicly sharing those open letters about how they've been treated about,

James 13:10

open with the press you mean?

Jimmy 13:12

yeah, so they put these letters into the public domain. In a culture like apples, when you've got people doing that, you've got a problem. So employees pushed back on it. They had attrition and performance issues. They did impact trust,

James 13:28

But then it's also, I suppose if they did have people on calls and it was a sort of semi hybrid, you get this strange situation where you're in the office and people are on teams calls, well, they might as well be at home.

Jimmy 13:40

yeah.

James 13:41

you are the poor fool on the team's call, trying to talk to other people who are in the office and you don't get a word in edge.

Jimmy 13:48

This is something I think organizations don't realize is, but that when we were all in the office, it was easy. You figured your ways of working for you in the office when you are all remotely as we were in COVID. It was easier because you figured out your ways of working when you are all in, when you're mixed, you have to think much more nuanced about how people behave. Anyhow, the takeaway from Apple is even an organization with an amazing culture can have difficulties. When the explanation doesn't really hit home as to why you're doing this,

James 14:25

Difficult to do. Okay,

Jimmy 14:27

then.

James 14:28

ugly, I'm gonna enjoy this. Go and tell

Jimmy 14:29

The ugly so,

James 14:30

might pile with a couple of my own.

Jimmy 14:32

So here the one I've chosen here is Goldman Sachs. So they did a very strong push back into the office. They had very publicly, some of their senior leaders were very disparaging of people working at home, and they really reinforced that presenteeism, you must be in the office. If you weren't in the office. You weren't committed to the cause. So funny enough, this struggled because, large number of people, were pushed into doing stuff. They still disconnected. There was a complete lack of empathy. It was very traditional, old school thinking office, lots of hours, investment banking type mentality. And actually what ended up happening is. Some of their competitors absolutely made hay on this because all they did is turn around and started poaching staff, recruiting staff competing in the same markets by saying, we are not old, we are not traditional, we are flexible. We're empathetic. So just really directly, almost directly referencing the Goldman approach. And funny enough, lots of people did. Did move jobs and,

James 15:44

Yeah.

Jimmy 15:45

engagement dropped. People didn't stick around, so, don't argue that, it was all right for me. I worked in the office all my working life, therefore, you should do it.

James 15:54

Yeah, I've got a couple more bad ones. These, I'm not going to name

Jimmy 15:58

Yeah.

James 15:59

A close personal friend works for a large bank in the city and they've really gone to town and mandating people come into the office

Jimmy 16:06

Yeah.

James 16:07

they've got HR out there giving you know how to have difficult conversations. One of my favorite topics, and you have a situation where you might have somebody who joins, I was, works in London, lives in Birmingham, is a coder for example. And they want this person to come into the city. Five days a week, which they'd never had to do before. And of course they won't. But there, I think that they're trying to drive attrition'cause they just want to lay people off, which is a, yeah, it is a way of downsizing if you

Jimmy 16:38

Yeah.

James 16:38

you do wonder about the ulterior motive or another organization, which also won't be named for legal reasons, but just closed offices left, right and center. And they were just, hell Ben, on taking the cost saving associated with not having the offices. I didn't really care about the social side of it. So, that's what I'm trying to say, I suppose, is it's really nuanced and it really depends on driver within the organization and what they're trying to achieve.

Jimmy 17:05

I think if we were honest, more organizations would fall in the buckets of, mediocre or poor in, in terms of their implementation of hybrid working.

James 17:16

Oh, absolutely, because it's hard work. You need to think about it.

Jimmy 17:19

and I think that's the key, James. I think we're always looking for simple solutions and a simple solution to performance. Isn't that great? We wanna grow the business. Whatever the challenge is, a simple solution is bring everyone into the office four days a week.

Speaker 17:36

Our podcast is all about helping people, teams, and organizations perform better and enjoy work more. I get as far as to say that we believe that everyone and every team has the potential to transform their performance by optimizing what they currently do. So if you'd like to discuss how we can help you transform your performance, then get in touch or maybe check out our website. We also do speaking events, mentoring advice, work as well.

James 18:07

Yeah. All right. So what's the research? Tell us then. Go on.

Jimmy 18:11

So I think there's a few bits of research that are useful if you're thinking about this. And this then plays into, so what can we all do? About optimizing our team's performance in a hybrid working environment, regardless of whether you own the strategy. I think different work needs different environments. So deep focused work really, where you want less interruptions. This resonates with me because if I was in the office, people would always want to talk to me or I'd want to go and wander around and talk to other people.

James 18:44

Yeah.

Jimmy 18:45

If you're at home that's when you wanna do the deep focus work. Things like learning, collaboration, problem solving, creativity, building trust, relationships. They all benefit from physical co-presence. This is the problem that organizations are, they might wanna treat all, work all the same. And you have to really optimize for the type of work rather than the attendance. The second thing the research shows is proximity accelerates learning, and this is one of the big things that lots of people have struggled with, particularly as you mentioned your daughter early on in your career. You miss out on, observation, overhearing, spontaneous conversations, all of these things you don't get, you can't schedule with'em into Zoom.

James 19:36

Yeah.

Jimmy 19:37

that's not how it works. So I think that, people who are developing, learning, growing, they are missing out on a big learning experience. And that's what I mentioned earlier, that life in the gaps between meetings. I used to enjoy it from a social perspective. You can also enjoy it from a learning perspective. I think that there a couple other things. Autonomy matters a lot to people more than location. So a lot of people don't like the fact they've been told to get back into the office, not just because of the location, because some people, it is a life changing problem for others, less so. It's the loss of control. That perceived loss of, now, I, I don't get to choose where where I'm working. That's a very parent child type treatment of employees. So that causes a issues. So these big blanket mandates where there's no real explanation, it is just four days back in the office. As opposed to, thinking through what the task, what's the ways of working and all that sort of stuff.

James 20:42

Well, I'm just piled in there with a little story of my own. So there was a piece of research I saw. So the key point here is just about autonomy and what this piece of research did was looking at clear desk policies.

Jimmy 20:53

Yep.

James 20:54

And so your sort of hard line view is a tidy desk is a tidy mine, therefore you have a clear desk policy and everybody who's got a clear desk will be more efficient. So there was one,

Jimmy 21:05

yeah.

James 21:06

Yeah. The second approach was, well, actually an enriched desk or an enriched environment is the place to be. So it's one of these places that, you have bean bags and you have table tennis tables and all of this good stuff, right? Or the third environment was in reality, doesn't really care. You can just as long as people can do what they want. So if you want put your picture of your wife up on your desk, you're very welcome to do so. If you wanna have some dry flowers, if you, whatever the hell you want, you can do it. Your office space is your own. So they went aware and they set these three things up. Tidy office, an enriched office, and an empowered office. And they saw which one was the most productive in terms of, tasks completed per hour. And lo and behold, hardly surprising the the empowered office weren't by a reasonable margin. But then what they did, and this was really quite clever, was they then came in the following day and for the empowered office, they just stripped everything out. Took all the away people's personal stuff. Yeah. And forced them into the clean office. They called this the disempowered office and that office there was just productivity fell off a cliff. But

Jimmy 22:13

Yeah.

James 22:13

is your point. People like autonomy, they want

Jimmy 22:15

Yeah.

James 22:16

to do what they wanna do. forcing people will not get you the best outcome.

Jimmy 22:21

No, they don't. They want some choice. It's the issue that people have with the way a lot of organizations are behaving is they don't resist offices. They resist being treated like children the final bit of research that I point to, which I think this goes back a little bit to the, remember the episode we did with Alana on high performing teams. And, one of the things that she talked about was teams defining and reviewing on a constant basis their way of working. And the same thing applies here. High performing teams will agree that how they work, they will revisit how they work and their ways of working regularly, they'll adapt to. The outcomes that they need to get to the challenges that they face. So a bit like the Microsoft way of thinking about things. So, and as Lana said it's your ways of working that define you being a high performing team, not just your outcomes. So the minute you strip away and you say, our policy is going to dictate that you are limiting team's ability to be high performing.

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James 23:53

go on then. So I have had this position enforced on me. Let's just, well, let's just look at the worst scenario, right? My organization

Jimmy 24:01

Yep.

James 24:02

that everybody has to be in the office four days a week. Yeah, it's gone down like the proverbial cup of cold, sick. But as a manager, I can't challenge that. That's the policy. What should I do about it? What are the things I can do for my team?

Jimmy 24:16

So I think there are a few things that you can do to help your team in this instance. I think the first one is stop getting into the debate about the numbers of days if it's been enforced on you. Work out.

James 24:29

Yeah.

Jimmy 24:30

Start designing the time and the ways of working within your team. So design those moments that you are going to work together if you like, create some sort of in-office menu with them. So, in other words, when we're in the office, these are the things that we do. So split the conversation from the mandated time to the way you spend that time in the office, and therefore by default, what you do outside the office. So for example, you can agree. These are the things that we must do together. We have to be face to face with these workshops. Maybe onboarding, the initial days of your time in an organization. If you've got to have a difficult conversation with somebody, then there's things that are better to together.

James 25:16

Yeah.

Jimmy 25:17

still do them remotely. So things like, I know planning, creative work, learning sessions, huddles, one-to-ones, they're better done face-to-face. And then there's other activities that, anywhere works for these. And that might be admin, individual work, prep work for meetings. You could be anywhere that's really location agnostic. So agree those different things with your team. And then that gives them some understanding of, well, when we're in the office, this is what we're gonna do, this is the benefits to doing it this way. Rather than people fixating on it's four days a week. So that's, the first thing.

James 25:56

Okay. So therefore create an office manual like that. What

Jimmy 25:59

Yeah. Second thing is I think be open and honest about some of the trade-offs that changes to working conditions create for people. So, as an example, you might turn around and say, right. There's loads of benefits to being in the office. Here are the things that we do to make sure we're maximizing the benefits, but that may mean that somebody has a long and expensive commute that they've now got to do. You can't always solve those problems. Sometimes you can, but you can't always. But at least if you acknowledge those problems that shows an amount of honesty and it builds trust in your relationship with your team. And sometimes there may be compromises that you can reach within the overall constraints that may solve some of those issues.

James 26:44

Well, lemme pal on with a couple there then, because it's all about knowing the person. So

Jimmy 26:48

Yeah.

James 26:49

different times in my life. I worked for a guy for a while who insisted on having a weekly review at five o'clock on a Friday, but I got a 3-year-old daughter that I gotta get from nursery, so I was always running out of this thing at quarter past five, and it just created angst and stress. Yeah. So that's doing it badly. A guy who did it very well, another guy I worked for, I was working in London probably a couple of days a week living in

Jimmy 27:12

Yeah.

James 27:14

If you get the four 15 outta St. Packers, you can be home by six o'clock. And he was very happy to let me go at quarter to four'cause he knew that I could run down the stairs at bank station, get there and get home again. But he also knew that I'd do work on the train. So, it is about understanding people, their lives and having a little bit of flexibility.

Jimmy 27:32

Yeah, so sometimes that compromise can be achieved. The other thing that you can do as a leader is really, you touched on it earlier, lead by example. So don't just go in the office and do five days a week, and that's all you ever do. Schedule those tasks in. So make sure that you are doing the tasks that you and the team have agreed should be done in the office. Do them in the office, schedule them in same way. The stuff that should be done at home. Make sure you do at home. So there's no point in you coming into the office and doing lots of admin and the team. See you do all your admin in the office and then doing one-to-ones remotely, always. So lead by example.

James 28:19

Alright,

Jimmy 28:19

The final thing I'd bring up is back to the point around high performing teams. Keep it under a view.'cause the world constantly changes. People's circumstances constantly change. And actually you're gonna experiment with some new ways of working, some different things. And once you've done it for a few months, review it as a team and talk about it and see how you can continue to optimize it. So they're the four things. Set yourself the team menu, be explicit about the trade offs. Lead by example and keep it under review. So regardless of what's happening around you, therefore things I think you can positively do, in terms of managing your team, that will have a positive impact.

James 29:04

So go on then. How are we gonna summarize all of that?

Jimmy 29:07

Well, overall,, COVID exponentially grew the amount of remote and hybrid working, and there has been a reverse of that trend over recent years. But it's been done in a very clumsy way.

James 29:20

So as a manager, you sit in one of two camps and we should talk about both of them. You can either. Either design the policy or you can work with the policy.

Jimmy 29:30

Yep.

James 29:30

who are designing the policy, what

Jimmy 29:31

I

James 29:32

should they be thinking about?

Jimmy 29:33

You should be designing the policy to try and help you deliver the purpose of your organization. What is it that you're here to do? And see hybrid working as one of the tools that you can employ in order to help your organization be successful. And within that, we shared some of the research that shows actually thinking about activities rather than just simply mandating. A number of days in the office is gonna get you a better outcome.

James 30:05

And don't forget, if you treat people like children, they'll like children.

Jimmy 30:09

Yeah. But if you are in an organization where you're not influencing the overall strategy. Then the research still is applicable, we shared four things that you can do to try and help improve the situation and performance for your team. They were create a menu of activities, what you do in the office and what you do out the office. Be open about the trade-offs, lead by example, and continue to review your ways of working.

James 30:41

Think we put that to Ben then.

Jimmy 30:44

Well, if you've enjoyed this episode, if you've got any questions for James and I get in touch.

James 30:50

Lovely speak to

Jimmy 30:51

you next week.

Speaker 5 30:53

We cover a whole host of topics on this podcast from purpose to corporate jargon, but always focused on one thing, getting the job done well, easier said than done. So if you've got. Unhappy customers or employees, bosses or regulators breathing down your neck. If your backlogs are outta control and your costs are spiraling and that big IT transformation project that you've been promised, just keeps failing to deliver, we can help. If you need to improve your performance, your team's performance, or your organizations, get in touch at Jimmy at@jobdonewell.com orJames@jobdonewell.com.